57 Alex G: Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Troublesome Terps, the podcast that keeps interpreters up at night, even in the year of the Lord 2021, it seems we Alex D: Happy Alex G: Finally Alex D: New Alex G: Made Alex D: Year. Alex G: It through Jonathan: I Alex G: 2020. Jonathan: Have Alex G: Happy Jonathan: A Alex G: New Year, Jonathan: Year. Alex G: Everyone. Alex D: Happy Alex G: This is Alex D: New Alex G: The Alex D: Year. Alex G: First episode. We're all still here, still alive. It is January 7th and the world has almost ended already. So we're off to a good start Alex D: Once again, yes. Alex G: Once again. But still with us, you already heard him is the muscle from Brussels. Alex Drechsel. Alex, Alex D: Oh, Alex G: How are you doing? Alex D: God, I'm not feeling very muscular at all right now, but it's lovely to talk to you both, so let's dove right in. Alex G: That seems pretty good, and you've already heard the other one as well, the hot got Jonathan Downie. Jonathan, Alex D: But Alex G: How are you doing? Alex D: Where [00:01:00] did that come from? Jonathan: Ginola is the first time that anyone has ever called me that, and I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry, Alex G: I was just Jonathan: But Alex G: Thinking, Jonathan: Anyway, Alex G: Like, what rhymes Jonathan: It's Alex G: With Scott? Jonathan: So to give you a bit of context on this episode once a year, the Troublesome Terps meet before an episode to plan the delights and the wonderful Alex G: Oh, Jonathan: Things that we are going Alex D: So Jonathan: To bring you Alex D: Many Jonathan: Over Alex G: You're Alex D: Delights. Jonathan: The next Alex G: Giving Jonathan: Year. Alex G: The game away. Jonathan: And so already Alex D: That's what popping the hood. Alex G: Yeah. Jonathan: Before this recording has even started, we had already been chatting and planning. And we have some amazing gems coming for you next year. Stay tuned. Don't touch that. Dial that this year. Oh boy. Alex D: In Alex G: I can Alex D: 2021, Alex G: Subscribe. Jonathan: To 2021. Alex D: I can subscribe. Jonathan: I like unsubscribed. Don't touch that dial. Outcoming after the break. The Alex D: Lincoln Jonathan: So Alex D: Bio. Jonathan: Already before we even started recording this, we've been chatting and winding Alex G: Oh. Jonathan: Each other up. So if this episode sounds a little bit more jolly than usual, it's not that any of us have been touching the the [00:02:00] illicit fluids. It's just that we've been chatting already and we've made each other up already, so. Alex D: My glass is completely empty, but Alex G: Minus Alex D: You Alex G: Two. Alex D: Can't Alex G: What is Alex D: See Alex G: Going on? Alex D: That because Alex G: Jonathan? Alex D: Thankfully, this is an audio only podcast. Jonathan: I have water. Alex D: Anyway, Alex G: Russian Alex D: We wanted Alex G: Wife. Alex D: To give a quick shout out to Sarah, who can't be with us tonight because of mum duties and family stuff. So happy New Year to you, Sarah, and we hope Alex G: Happy Alex D: To Alex G: New Year. Alex D: Have you back very, very soon. It was lovely to have you on for the year in review episode, which was a ton of Jonathan: Oh, Alex D: Fun. Jonathan: That was great fun. Alex D: Yeah, that was great fun indeed. So we hope you're all off to a relatively good start of the year, as good as it can be, I guess, given the circumstances and everything. But let's not dwell on that. We have a quick piece of news that I wanted to get out. You now have the possibility and you may have seen it already in the website, actually to give us some money, because we would actually like to have proper transcripts done for each and every episode, which is great for us to be able to go [00:03:00] back to early episodes. Great for you to be able to go back to episodes. Jonathan: Accessability. Alex D: And and it's great for accessibility, of course. And it might be interesting to people doing research. I hear there's such a thing. There are people who do research, apparently. I don't know why, but they do. And they might find the transcripts helpful. Jonathan: As far as I'm aware, there has never been a research paper on an InterpretBank podcast. Alex D: See, Jonathan: There's Alex D: That's Jonathan: A challenge Alex D: Your task Jonathan: For Alex D: For Jonathan: Anyone Alex D: The year. Jonathan: Watching this. You know, if you if you're doing a masters degree and you're desperate for a dissertation topic. Yeah. Alex D: Actually, Alex G: We Jonathan: The world Alex D: Email, Alex G: Have Jonathan: Of InterpretBank Alex G: Fantastic Alex D: Jonathan, Jonathan: Broadcast. Alex D: Email, Alex G: Topics. Alex D: Jonathan. Jonathan: I could give you some interesting podcast topics. Yeah, Alex D: Yes, he Jonathan: I Alex D: Has some Jonathan: Could Alex D: Troublesome Jonathan: See that working. Alex D: Topics up his sleeve. Yeah, so just to finish this off, you'll you'll find as of now in every episode, there's a link that just says support the Troublesome Terps. And that's what you can do. Just click on that and give us a little bit of money if you can. And that will be much appreciated to be able to make all those lovely transcripts. That's it. [00:04:00] And with that will dove in today's topic, which is a topic that we have covered before in Episode 37, to be exact, with Dr. Karina Vitaphone from Vienna back in the day. And we've decided to that we wanted to revisit the topic. It's about English, of course, the bully, the behemoth, the lingua franca. That's the angle we had back then and we thought might be interesting to to get back to that topic, because I think I've said on the podcast before that I'm not so worried about remote and machine InterpretBank I'm more worried about English when it comes to the future of InterpretBank. I don't know of any of you share that. Alex G: Worried about Alex D: I Alex G: The Alex D: Don't Alex G: Elf Alex D: Know if it's Alex G: On Alex D: A Alex G: The Alex D: Fear. Alex G: Shelf? Alex D: Yeah, the elf on the shelf is English as a lingua Jonathan: I'm Alex D: Franca elf. Jonathan: I was getting concerned about that because I talk to a lot of people are like, oh, just everything in English. And then twenty nineteen, I went to international conflicts back in the day when you could go to a conference, which Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: I Alex D: What was Jonathan: Long Alex D: That Jonathan: Ago Alex D: Like, Alex G: Back Jonathan: Was Alex D: Jonathan, Jonathan: That Alex G: In them Alex D: Tell Alex G: Days. Alex D: Me about that. Jonathan: It's [00:05:00] like you had thousands of people in the same room and no one was wearing a mask. Alex D: Amazing. Jonathan: It was, it was amazing. Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: And so yet but they had a session on diversity in the events industry. And I told you the long term and there was one of these open panel sessions. And so I decided the question, what about linguistic diversity? Because they talked about gender diversity and age diversity and racial diversity in all these different types of diversity and talked about linguistic diversity. And I asked them the question. And a director from an event management software company said that looking from their slate of events that were booked up for the next four or five years, they said English only events were beginning, were rejoicing and that companies were increasingly wanting to do stuff in local languages or in many different languages. Alex D: Interesting. Jonathan: And I thought, that's interesting because every interpreter I knew at the time was worried about English as a lingua franca. You know, someone with his hand on the stocks, seeing that trend is reversing. [00:06:00] I haven't seen a huge amount of evidence for that yet. I think covid may have changed some thinking. And I don't think necessarily the events not being in English only anymore is a huge boon to interpreters that are many ways of doing multilingual events that don't involve us. But I think certainly our fears of English as a lingua franca may have been not as prescient as we thought they were. Alex D: Hmmm, well, I can tell you why I was a little bit worried, especially in the context of the covid pandemic, was that I figured interpreters, some interpreters in some contexts, I suppose I'm going to qualify. It had a bit of a hard time adapting to the new situation and a lot of especially sort of standing committees and sort of organizations that meet all the time with interpreting. They couldn't just interrupt their work. I mean, they could just hop on his own call and would maybe decide to just do it in English, quote unquote. And that's why I was a little bit worried. But on the other hand, [00:07:00] I think Sarasate that last time around, is that the fact that we have these platforms now, of course, means that it's now easier to just add interpreting onto an online meeting so that that might mean that it balances the whole thing out or I don't know. So maybe it's not that bad after all. That's that's entirely possible. Jonathan: I think also the whole discussion of social justice, racial justice, the whole discussion of diversity has meant that people are becoming more aware of the innate colonialism of English. When I sounded like an academic there, but that's I will just do Alex D: It's Jonathan: It in Alex D: True, Jonathan: English. Alex D: Though. Jonathan: Everyone speaks English. People are becoming more aware that that in itself is not an example of racism, but it is an example of privileging a certain group of people. And so, Alex D: The people who speak English. Jonathan: Yeah, or people who are comfortable in English, more to the point as well. And so now people are saying, you know, if we're going to get serious about [00:08:00] diversity, that has to go across the board. And I wonder, I don't think companies are necessarily all on that yet, but I can see that becoming more of a thing, as people say, well, hold on, what ideas are we missing if we're making Italian engineers speak English or if we're making, I don't know, manufacturers from Colombia try to muddle through in English, what are we missing? And that's an argument that I'm hearing people in the events industry began to make before we did. We're actually quite slow in making the argument. Alex D: I was just just wanted to point people to words, a new paper from Cavin, who we had on for the for the first elf on the shelf, said she has a paper unintelligibility in English as a lingua franca from an interpreter's point of view. And I think I'm probably going to make a complete hash of this. But I think she found out with an experiment that people who are used to these health contexts, so people getting [00:09:00] by with just English basically, that those people actually can benefit from the situation. But people who are sort of experts in their field do not necessarily benefit from that constellation. So which would be a point in favor of interpreting, if I understand correctly. But yeah, go ahead. Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: We'll Alex G: I was Alex D: Put Alex G: Just going Alex D: The link Alex G: To say Alex D: In the Alex G: For Alex D: Show notes so Alex G: For Alex D: You can check it out yourself. Alex G: Yeah, for sure, but I also think, like a lot of a lot of experts in their fields, I think presenting in English has some sort of you know, if you're invited to an international conference, you might actually be flying there. Well, you know, back in the days when you flew, but, you know, there was always a certain air of prestige to to present your stuff in English, whether or not you were super comfortable with it or whether or not the audience was actually missing. Some of the ideas was kind of beside the point. It was more about, you know, that sort of air of internationalism. And so I'm not sure. I mean, yes, obviously people were missing some ideas or not all the ideas [00:10:00] were getting brought up, were getting were being brought across. And if somebody had to speak English. But I think there was always something kind of alluring to doing an international presentation in front of an international audience in another country. And then you have to speak English and you're like, OK, this is this is important. I'm important. Alex D: They have to is interesting, though, because there's often a fair amount of pressure involved and of course, everybody's fine with English. Right. And then, Alex G: I Alex D: I mean, who's Alex G: Mean, Alex D: Going to say no? Right. Alex G: That's actually that actually also goes to the flip side, I mean, especially in Germany, when interpretation is being offered at conferences and the the spoken language is English, tons of people will not get the interpretation. That's because everybody speaks English. And then afterwards, you know, Alex D: It's Alex G: In the Alex D: Almost Alex G: Coffee break. Alex D: A shame attached to it, right? Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: People are ashamed if they actually get the interpretation. And then in the coffee break, you actually overhear people in there like, oh, yeah, I didn't get that. Like, what was the actual point? What were they saying? So, you know, Alex D: It's a great bonding Alex G: Oftentimes, Alex D: Moment. Alex G: Yeah. But oftentimes you actually find out after the fact that, oh yeah, not everybody spoke English, but the people are [00:11:00] kind of afraid to admit it. Jonathan: So the story that I often tell as often as I can as I was construction conference and there were two Italian delegations, they are both in the same industry there, first of all, decided we're going to do the prestige thing, we're going to speak in English. And have you ever seen people so bold with their presentation that literally like playing anything on their phone was better than the presentation? So the first Alex D: Of Jonathan: Guys Alex D: Course. Jonathan: Got that. And once they finished with the the chair of the conference was like trying to get people to clap. They got like kind of three claps and I think some cockroaches silently in the distance. Alex D: Everybody at Alex G: Yes. Alex D: The phone in the. Jonathan: But then so then you had the break and then the next Italians obviously looked at what happened and thought, no, we're not going to do that. So they spoke in Italian. The Italian booth did an incredible job of taking our presentation that was both emotional and technical, rendering it into some of the most beautiful English that I've heard, which then obviously we took really. And [00:12:00] the next thought not only got a massive kind of huge applause, but you couldn't get to their stand at the next break. Everyone was really wanting to talk to them, whereas the Alex D: That's Jonathan: Guys Alex D: Awesome. Jonathan: Who went first and spoken English, you could have I mean, you could have had 100 people at their stand. There was so much space and that basic you know, that's the stuff that I think people say, you know, if you're not speaking in the language where you can make an impact, you're losing it big time. And people begin to think differently when you when you when you go that way again. And I've said this before, but if we talk in terms of value, in terms in terms of the difference, it makes it the person speaking, you can begin to reverse the prestige thing because, you know, is one thing being prestigious. It's another thing having to go and explain to your boss why you don't have any orders after after your boss has sent you, you know, a thousand miles for a conference. And you've got to go home and say, I got no orders because no one had a clue what we do. Alex D: There's a different angle to the prestige thing just to to add that is also that starting [00:13:00] at a certain diplomatic level, I don't know, maybe even corporate, I'm not so sure is that the prestige is actually attached to using an interpreter is that you can you can afford it. You can you know, you can bring an interpreter and Alex G: Right. Alex D: You can you have the prestige to be allowed, quote unquote, to speak whatever it is you speak and have that interpret it into into another language. So that's interesting as well. Jonathan: It is when you get dressed as Mr. So-and-so is or when an interpreter gets addressed as Mr. So-and-so was interpreter or Mrs. So-and-so wasn't there for her, it makes me slightly uncomfortable. But then I realized that I'm still trying to remind myself that interpreting is sometimes booked for the week. And it's, again, why I'm not massively worried about English as a lingua franca, because I've been in meetings where the InterpretBank has been there because it looks pretty and it makes the conference look at the national. Alex D: It's what you call it, again, not ceremonial, Jonathan: Symbolic in their. Alex D: Symbolic InterpretBank, yeah, that's very often what it is, actually. Yeah, because of course the [00:14:00] principal will no doubt, you know, they'll be perfectly comfortable, but. Yeah. Jonathan: Am I the only Interpreters' Help meeting and realize that none of the headsets have ever left the charging station? Alex G: Oh, no, my God, it happened to Alex D: It's Alex G: All of us Alex D: The Alex G: So Alex D: Worst. Alex G: Many times, it is the worst. Jonathan: Especially the first session looking right for the birth going. Alex G: And then you go down and ask the technician and they're like, you know, one headset is missing and so you have to interpret. And then it actually turns out the headset went missing two days ago. Alex D: Yeah, it's just over at the buffet. Alex G: Yeah, exactly, it's like somewhere at the buffet and you've been interpreting for Alex D: At Alex G: Them Alex D: The things Alex G: For. Alex D: You can listen to the floor on the headset as well, you know, some people just listen to it because they can't hear all that well or something like that. Jonathan: The biggest thing is that we have to stop pretending that InterpretBank is always about linguistic needs is not. Alex D: Oh, that's so much, yes, status and prestige, as we Jonathan: It's Alex D: Just said. Jonathan: About other stuff, and so the English as a lingua franca debate, part of it is is interrupting, deemed as important enough that it [00:15:00] matters. And that's a question for our clients. There's also a question for us. The other part of it is, do people realize that asking someone to speak in their second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth language isn't necessarily a good idea? Alex D: Yeah, and one thing I realized, as well as I went back to the episode with it, with Colleen, was that I think we spoke about the whole native speaker thing as well, which we don't have to go into too much detail on today. But there first of all, there is no English native speaker because there's no such thing as English. I mean, there's several English us, obviously. I mean, just looking at the two big ones, the UK in the U.S., there's still plenty of space for misunderstanding and, you know, cultural specificities. And Jonathan is quietly chuckling, chuckling away. So that's maybe just an aside. Um, and since since we were never actually before the before the episode, during our planning session, we talked a little [00:16:00] bit about Brexit, which is sort of a real thing now that the transition period is over. And there was lots of discussion sort of coming coming back up about whether English is going to stay a relevant language in language in the EU and in Brussels. Spoiler alert. Yes, obviously. So I don't know if we want to revisit that at all. But, Jonathan, I think you've written a little bit about how Brexit is going to change the market and the demand and the supply side of interpreting in the UK. Jonathan: It's changed slightly, so I've been following some discussions from TradeSports about this, and as far as I can see, Uki interpreters with so if you have an EU passport, none of this applies to you and you are incredibly blessed. And Alex D: Probably, yeah, Jonathan: Yet Alex D: If you have settled status in the Jonathan: If Alex D: Uk, that is. Jonathan: But if you just have a UK passport, it seems like theoretically you can interpret still [00:17:00] in the EU, some countries are operating an economic whatever. The Baik highlight is that as far as I can read from the UK releases on immigration, you cannot immigrate to the UK for the purposes of setting up a small business like being self-employed. That's not allowed anymore. So if you asuman, I think it's a fair assumption that over half of interpreters in the UK are not UK born, and I think that's a pretty fair assumption to make. Alex D: Yes, Jonathan: Then Alex D: Definitely. Jonathan: You have a reduced supply coming because unless there's a miraculous increase in staff jobs, there are going to be fewer interpreters moving to the UK. It's not hugely clear where you can have those can go to the EU. I didn't see a whole lot of stuff about whether EU interpreters can come to the UK that still I haven't seen any final confirmation on that. The answer could be maybe. But [00:18:00] even still, if you're going to have like an economic needs assessment or you're going to have some kind of paperwork to do. Alex D: So, Jonathan, what does that mean exactly? I've seen that prop up the economic needs thing. What what does that in a nutshell? Jonathan: I'm not entirely sure. It seems to mean something like, is there someone available locally who can do it so that the money stays in the economy or is the job big enough that will let someone else take money out of our economy because we'd be printing more? And that seems to be what it says. But no one seems to have you know, I am not a lawyer kind of hashtag, but that seems Alex G: Hashtag. Jonathan: To be but that seems to be what they're meaning. But no one seems to release details on that. But see, for example, that the UK said the same rules as I think France aren't putting any things. You can come to France to InterpretBank see the U.K., you don't need any there's not going to be an economic needs assessment. You can just come. You still have to make sure the person's got their up to [00:19:00] date passport and stuff, and it's still going to be a little bit more hassle than it would be now. And there's a disincentive to bring someone across. There's a huge disincentive for Iranian terrorists to move from an EU country to the UK because they can't come and set up a business. From how I read the immigration regulations, I could be wrong, but that seems to be what they're seeing because you need an offer of a job and so on. So you have you have you have a throttling of supply. UK universities aren't doing the best among any university is doing the best at the moment. So you have a throttling of incoming supply. Do you have a throttling of training where you may have a reduction in training numbers anyway for various reasons with the UK leaving Erasmus as well. Alex G: Right. Yeah. Jonathan: So the UK is about to have is heading for a supply side shock. The question is with assuming the events start coming back halfway towards the end of this year, if [00:20:00] we assume that the UK wins as many international events that used to, I believe London was the biggest or second biggest conference city on the planet, depending on which conferences you mean, then you have a supply side throttling and you have demand growing again. Anyone who knows basic economics knows that that means a likely price rise. If those supplying realization supply shock either means a price rises, that it means an element of availability or both. Alex D: And it's going to be tough for a language students, I mean, not just interpreting students in the U.K., but language students overall, you know, because going abroad is such a big part of Alex G: The Alex D: Learning Alex G: Experience, Alex D: Languages, Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Right? Yeah. I mean, for every student, basically, but especially for Jonathan: My year abroad Alex D: Language Jonathan: Wasn't Alex D: Students. Jonathan: An Erasmus year, and as I understand, the existing bilateral agreements, which many but not all universities already have, are unaffected. Alex D: Yeah, Jonathan: So my year abroad Alex D: And Jonathan: Was Alex D: The Jonathan: A bilateral. Alex D: Uk has a follow up program, haven't they, something that [00:21:00] Jonathan: Yes, Alex D: Is that. Jonathan: But there are issues with that I would leave to the experts, but experts of experts who were on the Erasmus organizing stuff and have looked at shooting have already seen the issues with children because it's not it doesn't seem to be reciprocal. It seems to be we will send their students abroad and we want to take them, but we do want to bring that again. Alex D: Well, they'll have to have bilateral agreements with each and every nation they want to do that with, probably Jonathan: Yes, Alex D: No. Jonathan: Which, to be honest, I mean, this is the other thing is that let's assume that shooting somehow magically replaces Erasmus. That's not going to be a straight away thing. The question is, and this is a question that no one can answer yet, is how Brexit will affect the UK standing as an international conference country and also with Raymore. How relevant is that anyway? So, you know, if Alex D: Oh, Jonathan: The big Alex D: That's Jonathan: Events Alex D: A good point. Jonathan: Start, if the big events start coming [00:22:00] back, there is a question I put and why there is a question. Can the UK supply side shock could be mitigated because you have Raymore, so who really cares where the interrupters are? Alex D: Yeah, it's like a perfect storm, almost, well, maybe not. Yeah, maybe that sort of attenuates the whole problem. Jonathan: But the whole thing Alex D: I Jonathan: Is, Alex D: Don't Jonathan: Again, Alex D: Know. Jonathan: Is that that assumes the interrogators are equally happy to jump into Raymore, assumes that hybrid events will hire more interrogators and assumes zero growth and in-person events or very little growth and embarrassing events. Preschool with I can see logical issues with any of those being correct. Assuming personal events come back, I don't know. Towards the end of this year, twenty one you if you see any growth in independent events at all, I don't think any interpreter that I know well, I mean, a lot of interpreters are really busy and on a lot of interpreters. We've had very little interpreting work at all, but I've seen an uptick in and demand [00:23:00] already. You know, how far does that demand growth mean? I had consulted Interpreters' Help recently where for one language I find it really difficult to get an interpreter that I was happy to put on a certain job. I'm a consultant and after I know my way around, I know where to look. What does this mean for people who don't know where to look it? It's a big it's an issue that no one really thought about there. There aren't any. The only obvious mitigation strategy, remote. But if you start going to remote, then why should U.S. Air Force be the people you know and half dozen other countries are just as able to bid for remote jobs as anyone else's? Alex D: Yeah, I mean, we should probably stop at this point because we have a whole episode in the works about this, so we're going to go into more detail. So stay tuned for that. But I'm curious to hear from you, Alex, since that's your [00:24:00] language. Combination is English, German, German, English. And I always found it kind of paradoxical because everybody says if you want to work as a freelance interpreter on the German market, you have to have English. Then again, a lot of people in Germany speak English quite well and might get along with it. So. So how do you see that work out Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: In your work? Alex G: There's I think it's kind of true what you're saying, but then on the flip side, a lot of people speak English well enough conversationally, but then as soon as you actually, you know, send them off to a conference, they start to struggle. And I think also Germans have a very there's like a whole bunch of shame attached to not being able to speak flawless English, because the Alex D: So Alex G: Idea that Alex D: True, Alex G: Everybody speaks Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: Perfect English, everybody but me. So this Alex D: Mm Alex G: Is going Alex D: Hmm. Alex G: To be horrible. Alex D: Which isn't true, but that's what everybody thinks. Alex G: Exactly. Totally. Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: And I have found that if you don't have at least an English see in [00:25:00] Germany, you probably will or you probably have missed out on jobs. I think that is something that probably everybody has experienced at some point. Certainly me in my in my consulting career. I need a lot of English CS at least, which is interesting because we're in Germany. And you would think that a lot of the times the main language would be German, but it is oftentimes English, especially in the automotive industry, which I guess is just because it's a very international industry. And they're also I mean, to be fair, a lot of those engineers actually speak like perfect English and they studied abroad. They said in the states they studied and, you know, the UK or wherever have you. And they actually do speak perfect English. And oftentimes for them, for, you know, for these sorts of events, it's quite interesting because, yes, they present the cars. Yes, they do. A lot of that. It was technical, you know, big blowout events. But oftentimes it's about the personal [00:26:00] connections between the engineers or the managers and the reporters because they've known each other for years. And so, yes, they want to know about the car and you know, Alex D: So Alex G: How Alex D: This Alex G: Fast Alex D: Is Alex G: It goes Alex D: For press Alex G: From zero Alex D: Events Alex G: To 60. Alex D: And stuff like that, for example. Alex G: Yeah, this is Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: This is, for example, perseverence or not necessarily trade fairs, but, you know, big sales events. And for them, it's not necessarily just about the technical information. It's about, you know, I wouldn't want to say shmoozing the journalists, but, you know, Alex D: Well, I Alex G: It's Alex D: Think that's a fair. Alex G: It's a sort of is because it's like, hey, how is your wife? How have you been? How did you like that event? When I saw you in here Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: And there, how have, you know, like all that stuff, which is kind of this isn't what we would interpret. Even this happens, you know, over dinner or, you know, in the coffee breaks. And I think in those kinds of situations, the English is very important. And it's interesting to see that. I think for those reasons, a lot of those events oftentimes are held in English, even in non English speaking countries, because it just makes people more comfortable [00:27:00] because it's easier to schmooze the people if you actually speak their language and. Alex D: There's quite a few companies as well who run their operations in English, even in Germany, as universities, offering more lectures in English Alex G: Young. Alex D: As well for international students. So lots of things sort of changing, right? I think. Alex G: Yeah, I think so, too, I absolutely agree. I think, you know, English is the lingua franca. I'm not too worried about it, period, but I do see that there is sort of, you know, people we talked to, we touched upon it with Brexit and new think there was a whole idea of English going to go away. Is it going to become less important internationally? I don't think so. I mean, you know, there's there's statistics saying, oh, English is the language of the Internet. And that used to be the case. And I dig the I dug up some statistics here where it said that the the level of English language content actually dropped down to like about 40 percent in the mid 2000s, which was shocking to me when I found that out. But but it is definitely [00:28:00] here to stay like there is no way of of kind of getting rid of English. I mean, I guess it wouldn't be unprecedented because at one point in time, French was kind of the the the lingua franca of the of the world. Alex D: Yeah, the Alex G: And Alex D: Language Alex G: That Alex D: Of diplomacy Alex G: Kind of was replaced. Alex D: And yeah, Alex G: So, Alex D: Germany Alex G: You know. Alex D: Used to be the language of science Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: A Alex G: Well, Alex D: Long time Alex G: You Jonathan: And Alex G: Know, Jonathan: Then Alex D: Ago, Alex G: Mago. So Alex D: Latin, Jonathan: By. Alex G: I guess it's not Alex D: Of Alex G: Unprecedented Alex D: Course. Alex G: And it could be replaced at some point, but that won't happen because of Brexit. That's not going to happen because of, you know, an overnight process. Jonathan: I think also with English, we need to not detach our language to our country, and this is the mistake that's being made and a lot of places is the U.K. is doing this. America is looking like this. Therefore, English changes. Well, there are no you know, there are way more speakers of English in India than there are in the UK, just as I think I think if if English loses its prestige as a lingua franca, its place and I could see ways that it would. I wonder if because of the [00:29:00] rise of automated speech translation, the rise of machine translation, that we could see a world with multiple languages rather than a single lingua franca because a single lingua franca makes sense when translation and interrupting are energetically and economically expensive. So when it costs thousands of pounds to get there, Zenin, it is a pain in the bum to find the translator. A lingua franca make sense when you can grab your phone and have a basic conversation using Google Translate. The position of a lingua franca isn't as important. I'm not saying that they're going to replace us. Are we discussing that in an upcoming presentation? But, um. But the very fact, the something that looks like translation and then there is no longer expensive in time or money or opportunity cost makes me wonder whether the days of a global or even sectoral lingua franca are kind of numbered. Because why do you need one? Alex D: You also get the impression, for example, in the U.S. [00:30:00] that Spanish is just growing so massively because of the demographics and also because it seems to me that it also has a certain, I don't know, pop cultural appeal, like I don't know if that's the right way of putting Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: It, Alex G: But I was just going to say something Alex D: But Alex G: Similar. Alex D: That's Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Definitely a big. Alex G: But then to that point, I also think English is definitely not going to go away any time soon or going to go anywhere just because of, you know, stuff like Hollywood or Netflix or all of those movies and shows that are being produced on a global scale. Most of those are going to be produced in English because they're going to be produced in the UK or in Georgia or in California or somewhere. And that isn't going to going to just disappear overnight. And that content is going to stay in English. And yes, there are no quotas in place where, for example, Netflix has to produce a certain amount of shows in the individual countries in the country's language, which is great, which is fantastic. If you want to have an Italian show, there are Netflix, you own a French. Are there a Netflix? Netflix should be paying me to say all this stuff. But, Alex D: She's [00:31:00] Alex G: You Alex D: Getting Alex G: Know, I Alex D: A Alex G: Think. Alex D: Commission. Alex G: Yeah, but, you know, I think yeah, pop cultural relevance is huge, not just with Spanish like you were just saying, but also with English. And that's not going to go anywhere, like Alex D: But I Alex G: At Alex D: Think Alex G: All. Alex D: Even a lot of international productions, even if they're not based in the U.K. or the U.S., are probably done in English these days as Alex G: Hmm, Alex D: Well. Maybe Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Not in Alex G: It's Alex D: France, Alex G: Just easier. Alex D: Maybe not in Germany, but internationally, because the production team will be from all over the place. There will be, you know, stars from various countries. And of course, the first choice will be English. Jonathan: I think also what Netflix has done, I mean, the quota system, I don't know if that was forced on them or where they chose it, Alex G: It was, Jonathan: But the Alex G: But Jonathan: Streaming Alex D: I think Jonathan: Services Alex D: It Jonathan: Have Alex D: I Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Send them. Jonathan: Really democratized. I mean, why am I using so many academic words and so on an academic? Alex G: Is 2021. Get it out of your Jonathan: But Alex G: System. Jonathan: The streaming services have made it less prohibitively expensive to create a forum and to get [00:32:00] people to see it. And I think we haven't really understood the impact of a lot of the technological change. And I can see because of the quota system the Netflix have got, you're now seeing more and more shows, you know, in Swedish or French or German. British people are watching and that Alex D: Hmm, or Danish, Jonathan: Or Danish Alex D: Baragon, Jonathan: And Alex D: Fenrir. Jonathan: That that is going to have an effect. You know, we're seeing you know, and I know her literally translator's comment about, you know, was it four percent of books in English are translated. And I think Anthony Adams pointed out there are four percent of a huge market is actually more books than 50 percent of a Danish one, which is. Yeah, percentages are usually a rubbish statistic because Alex G: You Jonathan: They don't Alex G: Heard it Jonathan: Tell Alex G: Here, people. Jonathan: You. But the point I'm making is that with more technology being available to broadcast in many languages and then going back 30 llena episodes on, intellectually speaking, it's becoming technologically more straightforward [00:33:00] to make that content that was produced in Italian, Bulgarian, Polish, Danish, available in whatever other language you want. Where we are, we are going to we are beginning to see pop cultural changes. And I've seen like multilingual memes online by people who I know are definitely not multilingual. You know, just think about the whole doge. You know, Alex D: Oh, that's a blast from the past. Alex G: Yeah, Jonathan: We Alex G: For sure. Jonathan: Are meeting we're doing multicultural meaning. There's multicultural and streaming services. Things are shifting. And I think I'm going to say this and I'm probably going to get a lot of people right to complain. But I think it's actually a good thing that interpreting and translation are more accessible than ever because it's creating a world we're interpreting and translation are more needed and are more experienced. And because the shine and the prestige, you know, the interpreting is no longer seen as by [00:34:00] many people, is no longer seen as this thing that you only see at the UN is, oh, look, I've got this program that's intellectually whatever is available in my language to translation is the same know as of my pocket and everything is in my pocket because of that. There's no bigger market than there ever was before. If we take advantage of it. And I think the whole language, English as a lingua franca debate is very closely linked to what is interpreting for and who is it for. And because of the whole intercultural stuff and you know what we're talking about, you know, Waita, where's the culture being created? We could see in the medium to long term that the whole English as a lingua franca dissolves at the same speed. There's translation and therefore become more accessible to everyone, which means that people become more ready to pay for it, which is not the way that we thought the InterpretBank would grow. Because, Alex D: Not Jonathan: You know, when Alex D: At Jonathan: I Alex D: All. Jonathan: When I trained some 12, [00:35:00] 13 years ago, it was a prestige factor. And, you know, here's a thing you need in your contract here. The conditions InterpretBank Roseby, there'll be more rich companies, more international trade, more of InterpretBank groups because people worked for good in Finnish and go, that's pretty cool that I can experience something of a different language. I wonder if and Alex D: Mm Jonathan: Suddenly Alex D: Hmm. Jonathan: They want an interpreter because they've suddenly realized, oh, that's a cool thing. Alex D: They realized it's a possibility for them, it's not just something that the U.N. or the European Union can avail Jonathan: Yeah, Alex D: Themselves of. Jonathan: I will be talking about that in an upcoming presentation, a wonderful summit that some wonderful people have put on, but we need to rethink how we provide to make an airplane available because we're going to start providing interpreting for the people who are used to Netflix and are used to language of a touch of a button. We don't necessarily want to be language at the touch of a button, but we need to realize that [00:36:00] they don't want us to spend three days doing things and then come back to them. They are wanting a different way of delivering and everything that we're used to giving them a. Alex D: Yeah, yeah, that's true, and I think Alex G: That's Alex D: It's Alex G: An interesting yeah. Alex D: I think it's super interesting in that context as well to talk to people who are not Interpreters' Help, but who certainly are very informed opinions about multilingualism and InterpretBank and so on. And just as a little plug, I had a very interesting online discussion the other day, a couple of weeks ago, actually, with Dave Keating, who's he's from the U.S. He's a journalist who's based in Brussels. He's lived in Italy before, I think. And he's definitely very cosmopolitan. And we talked about the future of English sort of as it pertains to the EU bubble, if you will, and journalism and Brussels and so on. That was super interesting because we tried to set it up as a bit of a sort of pro contra thing. So I was, of course, in favor of interpreting and multilingualism. [00:37:00] And he would sort of argue the the the other side. But we actually we very quickly found a middle ground where we said that, you know, of course, InterpretBank makes sense for certain situations, but let's not fool ourselves. English is just huge. And we talked about interesting things like, you know, going back to the whole culture thing. For example, we talked about Eurovision. He's a big fan of the Eurovision Song Contest and says, Alex G: Who isn't? Alex D: Yeah, well, let's not get into that. I Alex G: Controversial. Alex D: Can enjoy it, but I'm definitely not a huge fan as Davis. And actually there are a lot of interpreters who are big fans of the SCIC. So that's true. But we talked about how language in the Eurovision Song Contest developed because, of course, in the early days, every country would sing in their own language. And that has changed. I mean, almost 100 percent. I think he had some statistics. So if you're interested that go back and actually, in any case, go back and watch the video is really interesting. I think. So most of the stuff now, most of the songs are in English these days, which is really interesting. Alex G: But everybody [00:38:00] knows what Do's plan means, even Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: If you don't Alex D: Right, Alex G: Speak a word of French. Alex D: It's Alex G: Everybody Alex D: The Alex G: Knows what does. Alex D: The the token French phrases Alex G: Yes, the token Alex D: That Alex G: French Alex D: Get Alex G: Phrase. Alex D: Thrown around, yeah. Jonathan: In the U.K., everyone knows with needlepoint is because that's what the UK usually get. Alex D: Oh, Alex G: Oh, they said, Alex D: Nice, nice. Alex G: Oh. Alex D: Yeah, but yeah, culture is definitely a huge a huge factor, and that's definitely something to to keep an eye on. And Alex, you have some figures here as well for us. Alex G: I do, I looked Alex D: What's Alex G: Up some stuff. Alex D: Yeah, what's up with that? Alex G: Yeah, I don't know, I just figured, you know, I would come from I prepared, Alex D: This is Alex G: So there's Alex D: Our Alex G: Like a business. Alex D: English Alex G: I Alex D: On Alex G: Mean, Alex D: The Internet. Yeah, yeah. Alex G: Yes, I already talked about a little bit about the English on the Internet and how that reduced from like some 90, 80, 90 percent of us content online with in English. So we already covered that. And there's also a business angle on on English, because the 2014 services are not necessarily the freshest story out there. But, you know, it's what I've it's what I found and found that nearly 60 [00:39:00] percent of respondents either spend more time on sites in their own language than they do in English or boycott English language. You are altogether in the same goes for, you know, spending money on websites that are not in their language. Some people don't actually visit non non their language sites, if that makes any sense Jonathan: Common Alex G: At Jonathan: Sense Alex G: All. Jonathan: Advisory. Alex G: So, of course, if you. Yeah. So if you want to, you know, make business, you need to have multilingualism because some people will simply not go for English. And this is just a very basic consumer decision. This is for online shops or whatever. But even if you're going for for international business, you know, at conferences or trade fairs, what is that sentence? That's the phrase it's old and cheesy, but it's like if Jonathan: Is Alex G: You Jonathan: That Alex G: Speak Jonathan: The Willy Alex G: English, Jonathan: Brandt? Alex G: You know, it's like if you speak a language, people understand, you speak to their brain. If you speak their language, you speak to their heart or something like that. Yeah. Jonathan: There was also the Willie brand quote, which is kind of overused and interesting about a famous L.A., [00:40:00] I need to speak English. If you are spelling Specky speaking to me, then Musante Dogecoin. Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, Alex G: I like that. Alex D: Well, we'll put those quotes into that into the show notes, but Jonathan: And Alex D: Yeah, I Jonathan: You Alex D: Mean. Jonathan: Can kind of like a dub over my bad pronunciation. Alex G: Yeah, yeah, well, InterpretBank for sure. Alex D: No, but I mean, this is well, it's it's really unfortunate that we don't have Sarah around because she would have she would have a lot to say on this, like Alex G: She Alex D: Localization. Alex G: Did have the facts. Alex D: And Alex G: Oh, Alex D: And. Alex G: Yeah. Alex D: Yeah, so, Sarah, if you if you hear this. Sorry Alex G: We miss you. Alex D: With Jonathan: Well, what Alex D: You. Jonathan: I'm also going to say is there's another step that I've been doing research on which I have to be careful because I mean some of this, in my view anyway. So I specifically studied InterpretBank. I studied it in churches, but seems to apply everywhere. There's a big difference between interpreting because we need to, but we wish we didn't. And integrating interpreting into your organization so that [00:41:00] you get the best out of it. Alex D: Yes, yes. Jonathan: So I'm currently working on a I'm working on a paper with a coauthor where we had I can't even talk about that, but I'm currently working on a paper where that became very clear that you can have kind of I call it incidental interrupting. You could call it like talk and multilingualism where is like, you know, the equivalent if you go to buildings and the word welcome is in six languages, but no one in the building speaks any other language. But English Alex D: That's so Jonathan: Became Alex D: True, Jonathan: Multilingual. Alex D: The. Jonathan: We are we have welcome in 18 languages and the people in the room don't actually know any of them are. But also you can have and I've been in meetings Alex D: It's funny Jonathan: Where Alex D: Because it's true. Jonathan: The the interpreting Alex G: Exactly Jonathan: Is provided Alex G: Right. Jonathan: Because they need it, but they want you to sit in your booth. Don't make any trouble, for goodness sake. Don't talk to anyone. Just stay there. Just say, oh, you get to just see what the speaker said mentality. Alex D: Yeah, and we have the booth, so we might as well use them, you know? Jonathan: Yeah, the flip side of that is, I mean, they just see what the speaker said, as, you know, we need you, but you expensive kind of thing. [00:42:00] The flip side of that mentality is when you get and I've had a few times in my career where people realize, hold on, not the InterpretBank just seeing what the speaker said, they're doing something that makes this thing work. When we're the interpreters who make stuff work, we're the interpreters that, you know, they're not going to be interesting, the machine translation or machine interpretation of that, because we make things work and I've had one see, you see, we couldn't have done it without you. And it was actually when I did something that some interpreters wouldn't like. But the problem is, and this is actually connected to the English as a lingua franca thing, every Derica and others have shown that historically interpreters have sold interpreting as we just say what the speaker says. So therefore, Alex D: Whatever Jonathan: We Alex D: That Jonathan: Have Alex D: Means, Jonathan: We're Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: Asking people to throw us in the booth and leave us. They didn't just check us across on every so often. We historically haven't sold InterpretBank as we're the people who come and make stuff work because that's not how [00:43:00] we used to be. That has changed. Julia program. People like that are beginning to change that. But still, if you have got an article in the latest Idei bulletin, I was looking at agencies and I said nine out of the 10 agencies whose website I studied, you could copy and paste the text from one agency to the other and you wouldn't know the difference. Alex D: Yeah, Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: Totally. Alex G: Very Jonathan: And Alex G: True. Jonathan: It's all processes. It's all say what the speaker said AIIC, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Alex D: Iso Quality Jonathan: Yeah, I saw. Alex G: But Alex D: Assurance. Alex G: To be fair, I think that can be applied to a lot of different industries because the same goes for, you know, like management presentations, if I took a management presentation from, you know, one automotive Jonathan: Cinergy. Alex G: Company and sent the guy around, you know, just sitting around Germany, it could be literally the exact same presentation in every single company and you wouldn't know the difference. So I think part of that is exactly what you were just saying. But part of it is also just people want something familiar. You know, if you're going on a website and you're a newbie, you've never looked for interpreting and you're comparing websites you want to see, like you want them to hit certain notes, you know, like you want to see the eye. So maybe [00:44:00] I'm guessing nobody actually wants see in ISO certification because who cares. Alex D: But it's something Alex G: But Alex D: That can tick up the checklist. Alex G: Exactly. Alex D: I know what yeah, that's Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: What you mean. Alex G: Because Alex D: Yeah. Alex G: They have no idea. And so they're like, oh yeah. But they're all talking about neutrality, they're all talking about ISO. So this must be important. And if everybody mentions it, this must be good. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm sure that a lot of this stuff, it makes no sense and it doesn't actually say anything and but it's just kind of giving I don't know people who who haven't worked with interpreters before. It gives them a good feeling, Jonathan: I Alex D: Hopefully. Jonathan: Mean, Alex G: Hopefully. Jonathan: On the other side, I deliberately talk on my website about the difference interrupting can make the businesses and the difference it has made with very, very slightly over on my case studies. And I've had people at business events go, oh, I didn't know Interpreters' Help X. And I'm like, that's kind of what we do. And so standing out by saying, this is what InterpretBank does, I think realistically with English as a world language or automated speech. Translation, if we still [00:45:00] are talking about, you know, how we don't make a difference, I we just say what the speaker said. Alex D: Hmmm, Jonathan: We Alex D: I'm Jonathan: May as Alex D: Just Jonathan: Well just Alex D: The Jonathan: Give Alex D: Interpreter. Jonathan: Up that word just but I'm not going to run. But this is my point, is that if we are not convincing clients to be that we make a difference, then we're not making a difference. Alex G: But I think it's it's to say there should be a whole episode about how we sell ourselves and stuff because I think everybody needs to have their own USP. I don't Alex D: I feel Alex G: Have myself Alex D: Like our whole Alex G: A. Alex D: Podcast is about that Alex G: Yeah, Alex D: To some Alex G: It's Alex D: Extent. Alex G: Very true that to some extent, absolutely, but everybody has to have their own slant, because my whole thing is like I make it easy, you know, like for me, if you if you book me, it's going to be easy. Like, you're not going to have any trouble. It's going to be easy. I'm just going to be not necessarily fun, but I'm going to be fun and it's going to be easy for you. So that's like my whole selling point. And then the other thing is that you make a difference and you can prove that way. And so I think everybody needs to kind of find their own spin on on what we do and then sell it in that way. But if you just say, oh, we just say what the speaker says, [00:46:00] I think that makes us just bad. Jonathan: Yeah, and I Alex G: Generic Jonathan: Think. Alex G: Marketing is just boring. Well, why even bother spending the time and money on that? Jonathan: Well, the question that we now have to answer, and I don't want to give too much away of my presentation, but the big question that we have to answer in English is the lingua franca reminds us of this is why bother? Alex D: Yeah, yeah, Jonathan: And Alex D: Exactly. Jonathan: I mean, I'm sure in the European Alex D: If Jonathan: Union. Alex D: You're just the interpreter, then they might as well just do it in English, right? Jonathan: Yeah, or Alex D: Yeah. Jonathan: Just like my phone can do, just the Interpreters' Help basic stuff, as long as you don't say anything too difficult, organo Scottish. Alex G: Hi. Alex D: I love. Sorry, I. Jonathan: To be fair, it's gotten better, but I did call up my post a couple of months ago when you were posed a couple of months ago and I had to spell out my website name later for later. This thing he got, he felt I was very close to just get my way of saying how. And could you just, like, say this [00:47:00] Alex D: Can Jonathan: Because she's Alex D: You say at. Jonathan: English and I've told this. I mean, this is the world is the different English thing. I was on a phone call a couple of years ago, and all I had to say on the phone was yes to this automated system. And it was a do you agree to such and such? Yes. I'm sorry I didn't catch that. Do you agree? Yeah. Do you agree? So eventually I gave it to Helen, who has a completely different voice to me. She said, yes, Alex D: Hmm. Jonathan: And it was fine. I'm. Alex D: What did you do? Jonathan: If you if you can't see, because that's an audio broadcast I was doing my frustration for there. Alex D: Yeah, I think I can confirm. Okay. Jonathan: And also the frustration clawless. Alex D: That's right, baby. We just wrap up with it, I kind of like that light hearted and to this somewhat heavy Jonathan: Let's put Alex D: Or sometimes Jonathan: Our back Alex D: Heavy Jonathan: On the Alex D: Topic. Jonathan: Shelf. Alex D: Yeah, well, so we're putting the elf back on the shelf. Shout Alex G: And it'll Alex D: Out to Alex G: Be Alex D: Kareen. Alex G: Their. Alex D: We really encourage you to really listen [00:48:00] again to the episode we did number 37 and maybe check out her new paper, which is quite interesting as well. And yeah, maybe we can make 2021 the year where you let us know your opinions about the topics we discuss, you know, so you can send us an email to Halloa Troublesome Terps Ikoma or you can contact us on social media, ideally on Twitter. We're not on LinkedIn, I think. Well, individually, but not as a podcast. Alex G: We're Alex D: But Alex G: Also not seeing. Alex D: Yes, that's the whole thing. Jonathan: We're we're kind of still on Tumblr. Alex D: You know where to find us, so do do find us Alex G: Like unsubscribed. Alex D: Like and subscribe and it's been fun. So we're just doing a short and sweet episode to ease us into this exciting new year. And Alex G: It's Alex D: As Alex G: Been Alex D: We Alex G: A lot 21, Alex D: It's Alex G: He's been alive 20, Alex D: Got. Alex G: 21 has already been allowed to, you Alex D: It's Alex G: Know, Alex D: Been Alex G: Let's Alex D: A year Alex G: Just take it easy. Alex D: Exactly. We'll call it a day for today. Alex G: Yes, because [00:49:00] it's already 11, 17, Alex D: Oh, Alex G: 11. Alex D: Nice one, Alex, a callback. Anyway, we miss you, Sarah, it's lovely to be Alex G: Your. Alex D: Back in the hot seat for this year and stay tuned for a lot of good episodes, we think. Alex G: Yes. Alex D: And if you have any ideas, any people who you want to hear on the show, get in touch. Let us know. And again, if you can if you can help us work on that transcript, think that will be much appreciated. But for tonight, we're signing off. Bye bye. Alex G: By seeing in the next one.