[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. And you're listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about something that they know incredibly well. And today I have Piper Payne with me. And we're going to talk about what an audio mastering engineer does. Thanks for making time today, Piper. Piper Payne: Of course, thanks for having me. Skipper: So Piper, let's start with you before we get to our subject matter. And let's start with pronouns if you don't mind. My pronouns are he/him, how would you like to be referred? Piper: She/her is fine. Thanks. Glad you asked. Skipper: So Piper, who are you? Will you tell us a few things? Piper: Certainly, I am a mastering engineer, I make records for a living, and I am working on a process to literally make records. I'm working on opening a vinyl record pressing plant so using the knowledge that I've gained in the audio industry, mastering industry over the last decade-plus and then add in a whole bunch of years of school for this particular topic. I am putting my new hat on to be a manufacturer of vinyl records, which are the physical way we can listen to music these days. Skipper: Yeah. Piper, what's something about you -- and we're going to get more in-depth into those things that you gave us a very -- Piper: Sure. Skipper: -- top line view of -- Piper: I can tell you who I actually am. Skipper: Yeah, yeah, let's do that. Piper: I'm originally a Midwesterner. I have three dogs. Skipper: Okay. Piper: I'm an Aries. Skipper: Okay. Piper: I love cheeseburgers. And I live in Nashville, Tennessee -- in Music City. Skipper: That's awesome. I think those are also important facets of who we are. Not just the professional introduction, but then like, what are those other pieces too? Piper: Yeah. How are you a well-rounded carnivore? Skipper: (Laughs) That's right. So you gave us some of the peek behind the scenes. But Piper, what's something about you that someone may not guess, something you feel comfortable sharing, of course. Piper: Sure. I think that if I were not in audio, I would be in some form of construction. Oh, my grandpa was a carpenter. And when I was a kid, and up to my very early teens, I was able to shadow him and learn a whole bunch about carpentry. And so obviously, I work a lot. But on the rare occurrences that I'm not working, I like to just make things with my hands, usually out of wood. Skipper: Oh, cool. What's the last thing that you made out of wood in that way that you're describing? Piper: I made record shelves in my living room. So I can send you a picture of them. They're pretty cool. But yeah, they're these really like neat, abstract shelves, you can't see any screw holes or any seams. It's pretty neat. Skipper: Oh, that's awesome. Piper: Yeah, that was probably the last project I did. Skipper: Nice. Is there something that you're dreaming about? Like a project that you have in mind that you're like, someday I'm going to do this? Piper: Yeah. Well, right now, I really, really want to build like a screen porch on the back of the house, because we live in the woods in Tennessee, and there's a lot of mosquitoes. So it's fun to spend the evenings outside, but then you get eaten alive. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: That and there's a project that I've been working on for a few years now. And I have the prototype built, and I finally raised what I think is close to enough money to be able to build out the entire system. So it's a tool for our vinyl plant. But that's the one thing I'm looking forward to right now is to be able to be involved in that next step of the design and manufacturing process. Skipper: Nice. So Piper, let's get into the subject matter. You know, I gave it a little bit of way by talking about what it is that you do professionally. But what are we talking about today? What is the "this" of how this works? Piper: I think that the release process of a record of a musical piece of art is not well known to folks that are at the beginning of the process, like the musicians, sometimes the engineers, and then also to the listeners, the people on the other end, the ones that are consuming that musical product. So the "this" is basically that process right after the creative zone of making a record -- we can talk about this but the recording, songwriting, the recording, the mixing, and then this part where you as a listener, listen to it on Spotify, or CD or vinyl. There's a bunch of processes that happen in the middle there that are all very critical, timing-wise, financially, and of course, like just as far as security and things go, you know, to make sure records aren't getting leaked and things like that. But that process of it's called mastering is a combination of format conversion, meaning it's a collection of songs going out into a finished, cohesive record, or it's a record that was done on analog reel to reel tape, and then it's going out onto vinyl or CD. And so that format conversion includes quality control, so making sure that there's no errors, no pops or ticks on the record, making sure that we had the right mix of that song that ends up on the finished product, making sure it's in the right order. We spelled the artist's name correct -- things like that. And then it's also, like I said, the end of the creative process, the beginning of the manufacturing process, so we have to advise our clients on what the best type of master recording and master format will make, potentially make, the right product for it to get to the listener. So basically, like, if I send in a file of the wrong type to a distributor that works with Spotify, you the listener, you might end up with a subpar listening experience, or you might not experience that music properly. Or maybe it's even the wrong song. So there's a whole bunch of little things that all have to happen at exactly the right time. And they all have to happen at an extremely high level of quality and attention to detail. And there are no do-overs. Once you press 10,000 copies of a record -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: -- who's gonna pay to get it redone if I made a mistake? Skipper: Right? Piper: Me. Skipper: Right, right. Piper: And that's why the artists hire someone like me who is very experienced in this process, I was able to spend time learning from some of the very best in the business. And I spent a lot of years working on honing this craft this very specific niche part of the music industry. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: As a mastering engineer, I spent a good four years working full time before I ever took my first paid project. And you know, someone who has to work on art that will then be parlayed into a living, you have to take that very seriously, because your reputation is everything. And so I had to be very, very careful about the moment I first started taking on real clients, I had to be prepared for whatever was going to come my way because that is what then begins a portfolio of work and a body of work that's out there on the internet. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So... Skipper: That's a lot more complicated than I imagined it to be. So I appreciate you walking through all of those steps in the due diligence and the quality control. So rewind to where this interest started for you. How did you start with music? Like what are some of your earliest memories with music? Why are you interested in doing this kind of work? Piper: Well, I was a drummer. From when I was a little kid, I really wanted to learn to play the drums. So I started taking drum lessons when I was in second grade. So if you can imagine I'm 5' 10" now, so I'm a taller person of you know, larger physical stature. And I was the tiniest kid, I was the shrimpiest little kid when I was young. And so if you could imagine a little tiny, like eight-year-old playing drums on a huge Ludwig kit like a massive kit. And so I'm just like, hitting my arms wailing everywhere. I'm trying to -- I have to move one way to hit the kick drum and move the other way to hit the hi-hat. But I was totally hooked because it was so much fun. And such a huge challenge for you know, for and discipline to I had a strict teacher, even from when I was a little kid. Skipper: Okay. Piper: But anyway, that was when I really got into music. And then I went all the way through every band, like everything you could ever be involved in, in music in school, I did it I was all about it. When I went to go into college, I kind of knew music would be really cool. I didn't want to do performance. I thought about teaching maybe. But I kind of then at that point decided to keep music as a hobby and I went into electrical engineering. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Well then I was at University of Michigan doing my bachelor's in the engineering school and I learned when I was on the drumline at Michigan that there was a program that a couple of my fellow drumline members were in called the performing arts technology program and you could put music and engineering together to make audio to be basically more of a technical music degree. And so I as soon as possible I started auditing classes, I was just all-consuming in this program. And I somehow I apply it and somehow they let me in -- they probably shouldn't have -- I was really not qualified to join that program. Skipper: Okay. Piper: I really liked electronic music composition at the time. And then I ended up really falling in love with recording and trying to recreate an experience a tangible auditory experience that you would hear live, you know, like a concert hall with classical music or acoustic recording you, you record this, this live experience in your, your whole goal is to try and make it either more beautiful than the original experience, which is extremely difficult to do or at least recreate the original experience as accurately as possible. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And I fell in love with that. It was really neat, because I had this sort of tweaky very, you know, very nerdy sort of attention to detail, kind of engineering mind, but I was able to work with music every day. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So basically my undergrad was focused on that. And then I went off to grad school in Norway. And that was where I was brought under the wing of a mastering engineer. I didn't know what mastering was at the time, it doesn't get taught in schools for the most part once sometimes, some schools have a "mastering" class, but there's no degree program. There's no path really for someone to become a mastering engineer. If they were already on a path to becoming, you know, any other type of engineer. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: I ended up getting an assistant job in this mastering studio. And I was like, Oh, wow. So I can be super attentive to detail, I can really try and recreate a moment or an experience at the highest quality possible. And I can work on every different kind of music every day, because it wasn't just classical or acoustic music because I am a top 40 girl at heart. So I was just. Oh, wow, I can do all of these things that I totally love. And I'm just gonna I just got lost in it. And I then started what became like a three-plus year track to try and become a mastering engineer. And eventually I did and settled in San Francisco and have mastered records there for a very long time. And then last year, we moved to -- my partner and I -- moved here to here to Nashville to make records. Skipper: Okay, that's great to hear all of that. And that notion of, you know, the attention to detail, as well as like focusing on one characteristic as well as everything else that you're listening to. And then to be able to work in this wide variety of music, whether you're playing the drums, or you're sitting on a mastering board. Piper: Yeah, totally. And that's the coolest part of my job is that I can be extremely technical, and have to basically be the keeper of quality and stuff for a record, but I can also get really, really artistic with it and make a pretty significant contribution to the expression of the album. And the art. Skipper: Yeah. So I read somewhere that you start a work session, by listening for some period of time to a specific volume of sound -- a volume level, I mean, not amount -- but volume level of sound for five to 10 minutes. Number one, is that true? And number two, why? Can you break down what that does for you, as a person before you start to work on a piece of work? Piper: Sure, when I sit down to work, it's really important to kind of center myself and reground myself because like I said, this is a bit of a higher-stakes part of the record-making process, there's not really any room for error. So for instance, if my system isn't calibrated perfectly on a given day, or if there's a tube going out in some gear or something then you have to redo the whole thing so you lose a whole day of work because I'm working in, yes, in a computer and computer audio but I am working in the analog domain for the most part. And that is you know, equipment that sits right in front of me that has tubes and transistors and caps -- capacitors -- all kinds of stuff that is actually weirdly similar to how I as a human am, right? Skipper: Hmm. Piper: I might have a transistor you know, acting up one day or something or maybe my ears are a little clogged because it's allergy season or -- Skipper: Sure. Piper: Maybe I was working really late last night and had you know one too many bourbons before I went to bed and I'm not feeling great today. Skipper: (Laughs) Yeah. Piper: It's just a way of reset -- you know, re-grounding myself and re-familiarizing myself even though I work at the same spot every day. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's a way of recalibrating myself the same way I would calibrate my console with sine tones and noise. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Now, the level, the specific level or specific timing is only just to be able to get the room to be excited enough -- meaning you're putting enough level and enough sound into the room and through the speakers that -- Skipper: Okay. Piper: -- it will open the room up. Humans hear sound, they perceive sound in a different way based on the loudness of the sound. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So there are some claims that say, Oh, well women can hear a certain frequency range better than men because it's the same frequency range that a baby cries in. Well, that might be only at lower levels. Maybe men and women actually hear that same frequency equally, when it's a louder tone. Skipper: Sure. Piper: Right. So that hearkens to that idea that you have to send enough sound through the speakers to actually open the speakers up and then enough sound into the room to excite the room so that then I'm actually hearing in all the frequencies balanced in an equal way. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So that's what that SPL sound pressure level measurement that I may have cited is. Skipper: Yeah. So I'd love to have you walk through. And I realize, number one, I think, in talking to you -- I always feel a little bit like I'm out of my depth every time I talk to someone new on the show. However, I think I'm way out of my depth as it pertains to the work that you do. But I'd love to hear maybe at a high level, and we can dive deeper into a couple of different points. But I just love to hear an overview of what mastering looks like for a record. Piper: Sure. For anyone that doesn't have a deep background in audio, and is maybe just a music lover, we have a few tools that we use to describe sound, that is amplitude or level, which a lot of people describe as volume, yeah, frequency balance, which may be described as EQ, you know, like in your old school car and your tape deck, you had the bass, the mid, and the treble, and you can turn them up and down. It's kind of like that, but more in-depth. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And then we have what's called stereo imaging. So every human has two ears. And one of the things that makes us really wonderful predators and not very good prey is that we can actually hear things in a very equal way all the way around our heads. And the reason for that is because the distance between our ears and the way that our brain perceives those differences when a sound is coming from either the left or the right or up above or below you. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And so, you'll notice that on most speaker systems, we have a left speaker and a right speaker. Skipper: Sure. Piper: There are surround systems, which we're not going to get into but that balance of left and right when you're a listener listening to music, you'll notice now, if you go back and listen to maybe your favorite song, you'll find that the vocal is meant to come straight up the middle towards you. And maybe there's a guitar solo off to the right or maybe there's a keyboard solo off to the left. That's stereophonic panning. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And all that, that's just a simple way of describing a little bit about sound in general. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Really all sound is just air molecules bumping into each other, just like the waves in an ocean. And they bump into each other enough, and they, they make a modulating wave that then reaches our eardrums, and our eardrums vibrate sympathetically with that sound. And then that translates it into a chemical electrical reaction to our brain. And that's how we perceive sound and music. So if we have all of those ways of describing sound, we have to also have ways of manipulating that description of sound. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So mastering basically takes what is a recording of, maybe it's a band that they recorded in a studio, recording studio, and some of the instruments were maybe isolated from each other to get the best sound. And they were done with what's called overdubs or maybe laying over on top of other recordings. And they create this thing called a mix, and really a mix is not a good way of describing it. All it is it's a recording that was individually miked or captured. And then they create a balance of those individual instruments or singers or sounds. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And that balanced recording is what we call the mix. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So before it actually ends up in your ears, the listener, it comes out of the recording studio and the mixing studio as a balanced mix. And then that one balanced mix, that one song usually needs to end up on a record or an album with maybe nine or 10 other songs. Skipper: Sure. Piper: And those are all of those things are recorded at different times, sometimes by different studios, and sometimes over a period of years. And so you can end up with this situation where these different mixes, these different songs sound like different artists. Skipper: Hmm. Piper: So mastering at its core, as I said is format conversion is taking a collection of songs and mixes and making them into one cohesive piece, one cohesive piece of art that you can hold in your hands as an album. And so it's negotiating between those ways of describing sound, the level or loudness, the EQ or the balance, tambor almost, tone is another way to describe it. And the stereo image the way that the sound presents to us the listeners. And I'm using the tools that I have in front of me which are EQ equalizer, dynamic control, sometimes known as compressors, limiters gain level adjustments, and stereophonic manipulation to have a compromise between mix one, mix two, all the way up to mix 10 that they actually all sound like they go together in one cohesive album. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So that's what I do as a mastering engineer on the artistic side is manipulating that sound. More importantly, my job as a mastering engineer is to technically make sure that the album is going to sound good out in the world. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So when you listen on your very nice Sennheiser HD 280s -- the headphones that I'm looking at. Skipper: Good eye. Piper: Or when I listen on my $150,000 speaker system, or when someone listens on their iPhone speaker while they're walking down the street in traffic? Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It should present the same exciting way. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: On all of those other systems. So you can imagine I get a collection of songs that all sound different, and I need to find something to prepare all these songs, to then go out into the world on all these systems that sound different. And so where's the bull's eye, where's the target? We don't, we don't really know until we actually sit down at the console. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: But you know, it's also about making sure that it's technically correct for release. So when something goes out into the radio, it's severely manipulated in a technical way, that it really won't sound good unless I mastered a specific way here. When it goes out into streaming services, there are limitations to streaming services, because they have to send so much bandwidth all the way down this little tube to get to your phone or then get to your ears. And that that manipulation on that encoding doesn't is not flattering for the sound. So we have to reach for a higher bar in terms of quality, knowing that it'll get dumbed down in terms of quality when it goes out onto streaming to you. And then also making sure that it's loud enough so that everyone can hear it when they're driving down the street, in their car over the road noise, but not so loud, that it will do what's called clipping or distort the overall sound in a digital format. So there are all these weird negotiations we have to have in mastering, but that's basically it -- I take a set of mixes, I run it through a few hardware and software tools to manipulate the EQ, the dynamics and the stereo image. And then I hopefully have something that will present well out into the outside world on behalf of the artists. Skipper: Okay. You know, I didn't think about it being so complex in that way of, you know, there's something I work in digital product design. And so sometimes we talk about this idea of responsive design, which is you take a website, and that same website can be repositioned for if you're looking at it on a small screen, like a phone or a tablet, versus a big computer screen, like how those things present differently. It didn't ever occur to me that the same is true of music and the way that we access it, that, as you said, the track that's being played over a radio station is going to be different than necessarily what gets played on our phone. Or maybe if you have, you know, a piece of vinyl or you have a CD or you've downloaded the file, that's probably more Piper: Yeah. Skipper: Like, what that sounds like and what that feels like because all of those methods are going to have different qualities. And then also, there's a whole other piece of like, what does that sound like? You know, are you listening to it on headphones? Are you listening to it on speakers? How do all of those things -- I was just thinking about like in my car, I usually hook up my phone to my car stereo, but it's playing with -- Piper: With a cable or Bluetooth? Skipper: Yeah, USB cable. But then there's a whole other set of negotiations about how the sound that sits on my phone, whether it's a downloaded file, or whether it's from a streaming service, how it gets pushed through my car stereo. Piper: Yeah. So there are all these technical unknowns that we don't really know how the artists -- sorry, how the audience is going to interact with it or experience it. Or even like, maybe it's in a club. Maybe it's, you know, there are so many different ways that people that music can get to people these days, which is amazing. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: I mean, that's super cool that you don't have to carry around a stack of records anymore just to share your music or you don't have to be subjected to the dreaded eight-track tape, you know, or you don't have to literally carry around an Edison phonograph to playback your sound, being like a wandering minstrel. Right? Like, it could be worse. Skipper: Yeah, with a band behind you. Piper: (Laughs) But the problem is like we don't really know. And there are new ways that people hear music every day right then. And new streaming service, every streaming service sounds different, did you know that? Skipper: Oh, I didn't know that actually. Piper: Did you know that depending on what type of file, what type of asset I send in for that, for the streaming service, it will present differently on every single one too? And also, like, if you're on your phone listening, or if you're on your computer listening or on a server, it's like, it's all -- we never really know. And so what we always do is just shoot for the highest common denominator possible some I shoot for the highest period. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Understanding that, if I always shoot for the highest, that even by the time it gets down to the goes all the way through the meat grinder, so to speak of the radio process, or the streaming coders and things like that. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It will hopefully sound better than someone who didn't shoot for the highest. Skipper: I see. There are so many layers to it. And I just didn't realize all the complexity. I wonder, though, you described, you know, you very accurately called out the headphones that I'm wearing. But then you also mentioned your $15,000 speaker setup. How do you as a person -- Piper: 1-50, 150. Skipper: Oh, 150? 150,000. Wow, okay. So your $150,000 speaker setup, I wonder how do you experience music? Because, you know, like you said, like, we live in an age where we can carry around access to music very easily. So I'm curious, when you are not working as a mastering professional, how do you enjoy music? Piper: I have a soft spot in my heart for anything that you might hear on the radio right now, like, top 40 stuff. So I am all about and also, there's this genre of like early-mid '90s Country Music called young country. Skipper: Okay. Piper: That's just what I grew up on. Same way, you know, somebody else might have grown up with their dad listening to classic rock, my mom listened to the country station at that time. Skipper: Okay. Piper: So I have a super soft spot for country music in general. But you wouldn't know it because I work on a lot of very heavy bass music and a lot of rap. But I have a degree in classical recording. So it doesn't matter, it's all eclectic anyway, it doesn't matter. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: I think one of the things that makes me a good mastering engineer is that I am very, very eclectic with all of my music choices. And I have this terrible habit of finding one song and listening to it over and over and over and over again. It will drive anyone who's able to be close to me absolutely insane. Skipper: What is it? What is, why the repetition? Like, are you looking for something? Piper: It's just that I'm just really curious about what it is that I like about it, and try and figure that out. Also, you know, at the end of the day, when I'm done working -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: At the end of a long day, when I get in the truck and go home, I'll just put a podcast on, or in the rare event that I do put music on, it's something totally bubblegum dumb pop. It's like a chef, a gourmet chef, who's been creating these beautiful creations all day where every little leaf is in the right place. And then, they go home, they just make the shittiest cheeseburger. Like that's, that's this. So I'll jump in the truck and put on you know, Demi Lovato or, or Selena Gomez or Taylor Swift just because it's a straight to the vein pop song that was literally engineered for me to like it. Skipper: Right. Piper: You know. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Same way that a gourmet chef will grab a McDonald's cheeseburger on the way home because it's so salty and sweet. And fatty, that's all they really want in that moment. Skipper: Right. Piper: So yeah, it's funny, but that's how I interact and enjoy audio. I love podcasts, I was so honored when you reached out and asked me to be on this because any time I get to interact with a podcast, I'm all about it. Skipper: So that's great. I really appreciate you making time, of course. So you mentioned at the top of our conversation about one of the things that you're really excited about right now is the vinyl record pressing plant that you've started. Can you talk a little bit more about that? It seems like right now, records have never been more popular. I've also read some things around how there's an upcoming or maybe it's currently happening a vinyl shortage in the world because of some fires and other disasters that have happened just with the supply of vinyl itself. Would you talk about that from your perspective as a mastering engineer and then also just your love of music, what is interesting about vinyl to you? Piper: I do love music, but the thing that I love more is fidelity in music and being able to hear an analog recording of a song or an album. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And the reason for that is because we as humans hear in an analog way. And when you talk about music in the digital realm, you have to remember that the only way that we have music in the digital realm is because a computer translated an actual analog sound into computer language ones and zeros. And then it gets spit back out into an analog realm so that we can hear it. That is until one day when we have some sort of implant in our brain, and we just sort of are sent these electrical signals straight to our brain through, you know, vibrations on our scalp or something. But it's not unlike I mean, you're in design, you must know a lot about photography, and the fact that you know, you take a picture with a digital camera, you're taking a picture of an analog event, a scene, it's being translated into pixels and the more pixels you have the higher resolution you have. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: But you'll never actually be film. Skipper: No. Piper: Right? Skipper: No. Piper: And you can translate that back into you can send a picture back through a printer. And you can print it out and hold it. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: But it's not actually the original light, exposing paper -- Skipper: The analog capture. Piper: The analog thing is. Skipper: That's right. In the same way that you can take, you can take a piece of film, analog film, like you said, and blow it up to any size, right? Piper: Because the resolution is infinite. Skipper: That's right. Piper: Right. Same idea. Like if you and I were sitting in the room together talking, this, your voice would be giving me a steady stream of information. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And that is analog. Skipper: Yep. Piper: But because I'm speaking into a microphone over here, my computer is translating it into ones and zeros, which is simply a representation of my voice in a way that it can then be decoded on your end, right? We have now lost some of what's important about the interaction of sound in space. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: You won't be able to actually perceive some micro signals, I may accidentally send your way through simple movements of my like, I move my head closer or further, the computer is only going to approximate some representation of that movement in space. Skipper: That's right, yeah. Piper: Vinyl records, tape recordings, reel to reel tape -- those are both formats that are analog, you can speak into a microphone. And if you have the right type of electronic amplification, you can cut that exact representation into a disk. Or you can speak into a microphone and excite the magnetic particles suspended in the plastic, that reel to reel tape is made of. Skipper: Hmm. Piper: And you can actually lay down those magnetic particles in a way that is exactly the analog recording that came through the microphone. Piper: Yeah. Piper: Okay. So that's why I love vinyl is because it is a physical format, it's a physical thing you can hold in your hand. And it is now I mean, except for wire recordings. Or if someone had an Edison phonograph that they were going to cut into an acetate with. That's the only way other than analog tape, which is very difficult to get consumption on in the real world. That's the only way to experience analog recording -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: -- these days. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: We have one of the only studios in the world that has a way of doing what's called triple analog. Going from an analog tape through the analog mastering pass to the cutting lathe where we cut a disc, which is which then becomes the master disc or master recording that then we press more copies of that album out of it. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And so there, it's very rare. Now, even if you buy a piece of vinyl from the store, unless it says triple A, or all the way analog all the way through. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's very likely that it hit a computer. Skipper: I see. Piper: So it's not even really an analog recording anymore. It's now an analogized representation of probably very high quality but high-quality digital recording. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's kind of this misnomer now where people think, Analog awesome, but it's not really it's most of the time it's been computerized unless it says specifically, this was analog all the way through. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: But there's something about vinyl, it's, it's organic. It's raw. It's alive. Every single piece, every single copy of a vinyl record is different than the one before it or the one after it. Because it's not like a computer, when you copy a file and send it out into the world, it's literally a bit for bit copy. This is a real thing. Vinyl records are not unlike making waffles. Skipper: Hmm. Okay. Piper: So just very high-level mastering for vinyl is essentially you're creating a disc that has the recording etched into it by a lathe. It's just like a lathe, a carpenter's lathe that turns, but this way, it turns vertically with a disk that's spinning horizontally, instead of a carpenter's layer that turns horizontally with a thing on it that spread and spins vertically. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And you have a head that is you're feeding audio to it. So it's amplifying audio into the cutter head. And the cutter head is literally etching out little pieces of lacquer. That is basically lacquer paint, just like nail polish. Piper: Okay. Piper: That's been run over an aluminum desk, that becomes a very flat clean surface for you to then etch the grooves of the sound onto the record with this cutterhead. It's a much faster process than taking a little hammer and chisel or something, but it's actually not unlike that, right. So, we cut the recording into a disc a lacquer disc. And then there's a process where you make metal negatives of that disc. So now things that were cut as grooves are now peaks. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And things that were cut as little peaks are now grooves so you make a negative. And then there are a couple more steps, it doesn't matter. But you basically make a hardened version of that metal negative and then put that onto a hydraulic press. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And then there's an extrusion process with the plastic. So basically, it's a screw with a feed screw that sends a very specific amount of it's not molten, it's not liquid, it's also not hard. It's like warmed vinyl. Skipper: Okay. Piper: At a very specific temperature gets dropped into the middle of the press with the negative the stampers affixed to it. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And then it will squish out the grooves into a record. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Then we basically put the labels on top and bottom, squish the puck or a biscuit, squish the biscuit. So that the biscuit the plastic fills all of the grooves of the stampers. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And then the stampers and then it opens up, and press opens up and then we trim off the excess. And then you have your record. Skipper: Oh, wow. Piper: That's it. And then it goes into a package and goes off to the fan. Skipper: Okay. Piper: That's an extremely fast version of what it actually is. It is a very, very difficult process. And it's even harder to do it right. There are so many things that have to happen, right? Like it's a perfect storm of all things that have to happen, right? Just to make an okay, vinyl pressing, right. So I won't I don't need to necessarily get into it but it's just like making waffles. Skipper: Okay. Piper: We make a lacquer disc. We make a metal negative of it. And then you make waffles. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So every waffle ends up being a little bit different. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Because maybe the water flushed through the hydraulic press, the molds in a different way or at a slightly different temperature than the one before and so the vinyl didn't fill in exactly the same way. Or maybe the labels came off of, the labels went on to the pocket a different, slightly different turns. So this record, and this record, even though the groups are starting at exactly the same place, the label might be skewed a little, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that, doesn't affect the sound quality. But I'm just saying like every record is a little different. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And I love that about it. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Every single copy. Skipper: How does that because you know, one of the things that you've said a few times is like this notion of quality control and making sure does the challenge of making that thing as close to perfect as possible? Is that something that speaks to you also about the vinyl experience? But then it seems it's taking this to a whole other level to say, not only am I going to engineer for, you know, the sound experience, but then I'm also going to physically make the record in some instances. Piper: It definitely speaks to me just having the ability to be you know, I don't think of it as in control. But I think of it as trying to understand every bit of the process so that I can make the best thing I can because I in a weird way like starting this plant here in Nashville. This is actually my second go around, making a record plant. Piper: Okay. Piper: And there were so many things that I learned not to do because they were rooted in trying to control the process. So now I'm like, Okay, how can we be as flexible as possible, be adaptable as fast on this technology of vinyl, which is 60 some years old, the presses that I have are almost 50 years old. Skipper: Wow. Piper: And the other ones that I have are even older. So those than that technology of pressing record, "making waffles" that has not changed, right since vinyl records were started to be made. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's the same process. It's plastic, a similar compound of plastic going through a feed screw coming out as a very specific way to have a biscuit getting squished. Getting sent out to the listener. Like that is amazing that that technology that we haven't found a better way to do it. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Look at other industries for things like milk cartons. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Okay, so we used to have what bottles glass bottles of milk was delivered in -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And then it turned into plastic cartons. Right? Or, or paper, even cardboard now we're like, now we're to like weird hybridize, like cardboard with like a little screw cap at the top. Milk delivery systems have changed so much since milk's been around. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: But like vinyl records, nothing has changed. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's kind of neat. Skipper: It is neat, for sure. And I think that there's something important to be learned from wanting the best thing that's available, like what's the innovation? What's the new thing, but this idea that you're talking about, you have 50-year-old equipment in your vinyl pressing plant that tells me a story that sometimes it's not about the brand new thing that's available, sometimes it's about going back and figuring out, well, why did this work? And then sometimes it's about literally taking the equipment or the lessons or whatever, and reusing and maybe refining those to make them a little bit better. Piper: Right. And that's one thing that I've identified. And I'm really happy to have the team that we have putting this together is because we haven't changed anything about the way that we're going to press records here. Skipper: Okay. Piper: The pressing equipment is exactly the same. The lacquer cutting, the electroplating process, the pressing process is exactly the same. But we've identified other pain points in the industry and the process of an artist or label making the record. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And then we've identified pain points in this stuff that happens right after the record is pressed and how it gets to the fan. And we've designed systems to solve for all of those pain points. Skipper: Nice. Piper: So the cool thing and the thing I'm excited about and this is when you asked, What is it about making the record? That's exciting, more challenges to try and make the most perfect record? Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's not. As a mastering engineer, my whole role has been to deliver what the artist is intending for their fan or their listener to experience the music with. And so it has nothing to do with my excitement around this -- yes, it's really, really neat to make vinyl records. It's the coolest thing ever to like hold in your hand, a thing that just came off of a press that you made. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Like, that's awesome. But it's really more about for me, fixing -- the fact that we have 50-year-old presses, just means that we have 50-year-old presses, the entire rest of the pressing industry is still 50 years behind. When I got into this five years ago, and started trying to solve for some of these pain points, I was like, Well, why hasn't anyone fix this yet? Like, why is it so hard for an independent artist to get a record made? What is that? Turns out, it's basically like, ordering a Tesla. Like vinyl records are the only other industry that I can think of where you pay in full for a thing that you don't know what it's gonna look like. Skipper: (Laughs) Piper: You then wait six months to a year -- Skipper: Right. Piper: -- to be even given a proof of what the thing's supposed to look like. And then you hope that it's going to be fine. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And hope that it's gonna be good. And this was like, This is basically that was the process for making a record, call a broker, they put in an order for you and you don't really know what happens until you have a crate of records that show up on your doorstep. And hopefully, they're the right artist. I mean, there are very famous stories of Beyonce "Lemonade" in her Deluxe, $300 Deluxe album and a Canadian punk band ending up on side A and Side B of that record, like there are all these things that I was hearing about. And I was having such a hard time helping to, you know, support my artists that I had just mastered a record for helping them to get their lacquer cut and their electroplating done and their vinyl presses made. It's like -- I just was like, This can't be that hard, right? I'm gonna figure this out, I'm gonna do it. But then when I started looking into it, I just realized that it was an industry that in the late 80s, it started to fall off as CDs came up. And then for the last 25 years, 30 years, vinyl has hung on. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Barely. And just about 2011, 2012 is when I first started getting asked to make a vinyl prep file here and there. So knowing that maybe one in 100, projects might be going to vinyl, and then it turned into like one in 50, and then one in 10, and then one in 20, or, you know, here and there as the industry goes up and down. But now it's probably one in five, maybe two in five -- Skipper: Wow. Piper: -- albums are going to end up on vinyl. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And still, to this day, it is still very difficult to get a record made. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: You know, it used to be, you know, even when I was first starting to advise artists, it was, you know, you pay in full, you get, you get faxed in invoice or sales order, you have to return it via fax, or some of the better plants and brokers would accept a scanned, emailed form with a PO on it. Skipper: Okay. Piper: You know, and so it was just a big mess. So now all of the things that go into, you know, when you open up a vinyl record, all the things that go into it, like the jacket, and the sleeve, and the artwork and the record itself, and the colored art, the colored record, or the different kind of center label, whatever. All those things are things that someone has to solve for if they want to get a record made. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And there are a lot of decisions to make. So what we're trying to do is fix that process of ordering. Take away the black box, you don't really know, it's like you don't know if the record is in production, or if it's not, because you're not being communicated with -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And then how to get that that music to your fan requires a distribution scheme that most independent artists just don't have. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So trying to solve for that experience as a fan too, is pretty cool. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So we're not you know, we're not improving, record pressing, we're improving everything around the pressing itself and doing it at the highest level, you know, that we can reliably? Skipper: Yeah, that's a good distinction. Piper: That's my challenge. Skipper: That's a big challenge. Piper: Oh, you had a question, though. For me about lacquer. I don't know if anybody wants to throw in this little tidbit about the fires. Skipper: Sure. Yeah. Can you break it a little bit? Because I've just read a few things here and there... Piper: Yeah, basically as the vinyl industry started to come down as CD sales were coming up in the late '80s, early '90s. Continue through to the early 2000s and streaming takes over. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: As we all remember, I was definitely a Napster and Limewire kid so streaming takes over we have mp3s blah, blah, blah. Piper: Yeah. Piper: Early 2000s, CD sales start to tank. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Because streaming has now taken over. Well guess what happened a few years later, people realize that, Yeah, streaming is cool. But don't you want to kind of own your music collection? And isn't it kind of neat to hold a physical thing in your hands? That's like something that you really enjoy and maybe want to share with someone? Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Not to mention the fidelity, not to mention the fact that a lot of artists are not just auditory or oral artists. They are also visual artists, and they want a way to express themselves and credit their engineers and producers and their team and the other musicians that contributed to it. And there's no good function for doing that in streaming. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So in vinyl, you can actually do all of those things. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Well, guess what? Vinyl, as I said, had been pretty much dormant since the early '90s when CD sales took over and they started basically liquidating vinyl plants. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Which is why it's kind of hard to get ahold of presses these days. They've all been scrapped, metal scrapped. And the entire infrastructure around vinyl for the most part, I wouldn't say went away because there were still just awesome people that were still cranking out records. There were still people making vinyl, it just was a tiny, tiny fraction of what it was when vinyl was the only real format to listen to music on. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: We ended up with only two suppliers of some of the most important things that we need to make vinyl. Skipper: Okay. Piper: We only have two or three suppliers of compound today -- vinyl, the actual PVC that you can use to make a stable vinyl record. Skipper: Okay. Piper: We only had -- I say had because there was a very devastating fire that just happened in Southern California for a company called Apollo. We only had two suppliers of the lacquer blanks that we as mastering engineers used to cut those desks to make the masters. And now there's only one left. They're called MDC, and that is a really wonderful, very small company that over in Asia, just cranking these things out and actually holding the industry up with the available lacquers. And so they're kind of on a first come first serve or on a capacity, availability basis. And they're very expensive. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And then on top of that, when Apollo burned down, we also lost, basically the only supplier of the stylus, the stylus that we use to cut, it's an expendable part of the process. But you know, over time, it's like a drill bit, you know, it wears down and you have to replace it or breaks, you have to replace it. The only supplier of that was this company called Apollo, who had bought all the Transco stylus making equipment in the world. There's one company in Europe that's doing a little bit of it, you know, some of the companies like ours, like Infrasonic, we were very, very lucky to have not only been a longtime customer of MDC, so we were able to continue sourcing MDC lacquers, we also had a massive stockpile of styli, that were still very usable. So that'll get us through until we have a more reliable supply, I think. Skipper: Okay. Piper: But it's been hard, it's been really tough, that that fire was devastating to the cutters that were reliant on that particular brand. It was tough. Skipper: Well, thank you for breaking that down. So two more subject matter questions. As a mastering engineer, what is something, what is an assumption that people make about your work that is often wrong? Piper: So as a mastering engineer, there is this misconception that we have complete control over the overall sound of the record, when in fact, we have a little bit of control over some perception of the record, but we don't have, you know, we don't have the ability to like to restack the vocals, you know, in that Mariah Carey song, and we don't have the ability to, like, fix the guitarists flub in his solo. Right. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And those are things that people go like, well, you're supposed to put the polish on, you're supposed to put the finishing touches on it. But you know, we can't like we're not alchemists. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: You know. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So that's one thing that I think is kind of funny. And also the idea that I think that engine that generally engineers or people that are contributing to the record-making process, forget about one thing, and that it's the artist's music, it's the artist's work. I'm lucky if I mean, I, I do have really wonderful clients that are very good about crediting me and taking care of my representation on the album itself. But for the most part, you have to keep in mind that the artists' name and likeness are on the front of the album. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And no matter what happens, at the end of the day, if you don't, you know, even if you don't like whatever mastering sound, whatever sound I put on, or however I mastered the record, I can guarantee there's going to be a couple of things that are true about that record, no matter what and this is one of those misconception things. One, it will be technically correct, there will be nothing wrong with it. Skipper: Okay. Piper Payne Two, it will be as good or better than when I got it. We have a little audio Hippocratic Oath kind of thing. And three, it's going to be as the artist wanted it to be. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Because I'm not like forcing their finger to push the button that says release this thing as it is right. They're gonna release it when they're happy with it. And when they're happy with my work, whatever that is. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: So that's one thing you know, that is, Well, two things, I guess that are the misconceptions. One is I can't make a performance, you can't make an amazing song out of a bad song. You can make a great recording or a great master of a terrible song. And you can make a terrible recording, or a great or terrible master, out of a great song. But guess which one's going to sell every single time is the great song. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: The undeniable song, that incredible performance of that undeniable song. And at that point, the sound, the quality of the master, the quality of the recording, doesn't matter. Skipper: Right. Right. Piper: It really doesn't. Skipper: That's a great point to bring up. Like there's only so much -- there are things that you can do that will help the process but you're not going to be able to spin gold out of straw. Right? Piper: Right, right. Skipper: It's not alchemy. I love that description. Piper: We have another way of describing it which may or may not be PC, but we call it turd polishing. Skipper: It's okay on this podcast. It's all good. So Piper, what's something that we haven't talked about yet? And I know there's a lot of detail that you can get into but what's something that we haven't talked about yet that you think that we should get into that we've kind of missed? Piper: Hmm. Well, one thing that I don't think we've talked about much around mastering, I mean, I haven't mentioned that much, but it is an extremely important part of my job, which is to be the keeper of the information, the metadata of the recording. Skipper: Okay. Piper: Not unlike a librarian, or a publisher that has control over what information is included along with the book, in the sales, or in the cataloging of that book. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Mastering engineers are quite responsible for making sure that the metadata that comes in an album or with the song gets passed along through, because that's how artists make money. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Recording artists in the United States are not paid for their performance on terrestrial radio, only the songwriter or the publisher is paid on terrestrial radio. And streaming services pay an extremely tiny, tiny, tiny little royalty per spin, to the point where there's some crazy thing where you have to have hundreds of thousands of spins of your song or album every month in order to just pay a basic room rate rent, right. And so it's very difficult for a musician to make money in the music industry for the average musician, first of all, and then on top of it, even for big musicians, it's really, really hard. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Think of your favorite musician. And when I tell you that, whatever you heard them play on the radio, they didn't get paid for that. They only get paid if they actually wrote the song. So like Aretha Franklin, playing, singing "Respect", that incredible song that we all know and love, not just because Otis Redding did it but because we know it from Aretha -- every time that that song is played on the radio, she doesn't get paid. Skipper: Wow. Piper: That money goes to the estate of the songwriter. Skipper: I see. Piper: Right. And so you have these incredible artists, the ones that made, you know, Motown and Stax, and the incredible Delta Blues, even a lot of pop stars, you know, unless they have very specific business management, or they have someone who's looking out for them, it's very difficult for them to get paid. And so the one thing that I can do as a mastering engineer is to make sure that I give them the best chance to make money on that art and that music, by including the correct information to follow it along, so that when it does get played on Spotify, or when it does show up on the radio, at least there's a little royalty being tucked away for them. And that they can use that as markers of how they're doing out in the world to maybe get a record deal, know where to tour, or at the very least, to make sure that when that song gets played on YouTube, and someone put it in an advertisement and they're making a ton of money off of it. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And it's your song, at least it's being tracked properly because it has the right information. So that's a big part of my job. Skipper: Yeah, that's a really good point. I don't know that I put that together, either. But all of these systems, you go to Spotify, Apple Music, or whatever it is, and you click on a song, and you're like, Oh, I love that song. And so I'm gonna make a radio station out of it or whatever. Like, if that connective tissue isn't there, then that whole system kind of fails. Right? Piper: Right. Skipper: So taking it one step further, some of these businesses are predicated on this idea of, how can they link this song? Link this Taylor Swift song to this Demi Lovato song or, you know, like, etc? Like, how can they sort of create an experience for their customers, which is a lot of the reason why these customers sign up for these services, to begin with. Piper: Right, yeah, I was a Spotify user back about a year and a half before it ever came to the States. It was the big exciting thing when I lived in Norway in grad school. And I remember looking at it and thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is going to change the world. Because you have two different types of -- first of all, I didn't realize this at the time, but you have two different types of interactions with music, and the way that you interact as a fan will dictate the way that the artist gets paid. So something like terrestrial radio, or even Sirius XM Radio, those are considered non-interactive streams of music, meaning they are in one specific royalty tier, which is basically zero. Even Pandora is technically considered a non-interactive stream. Skipper: Oh, wow. Piper: Or even Sirius XM, I mean, they pay the least of anyone. And you know, that might be a little controversial to say, but it's true. And maybe when Spotify, even RDIO was big at that time, TIDAL, iTunes, all of those are considered interactive. But the moment that they make a radio version that calls into question what the royalty scheme ends up being. Skipper: That's a good point. Piper: So -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It's kind of interesting, it's an interesting business decision that streaming companies are able to make is that then when it comes time to lobbying Congress against getting artists paid for their work -- Skipper: Yeah. Piper: They can claim that there are radio and non-interactive streaming service. Skipper: That's really interesting. Piper Payne Therefore, they'll be only subjected to extremely low if not zero levels of royalties. Skipper: Wow. Piper: So there's a lot to it. And as a mastering engineer, I need to know these things to be able to advise my clients. I'm not coming up with a release plan for them or anything, but they are going to ask me, you know, should I release on Bandcamp? Or should I release on Spotify? Or streaming services? Should I make a vinyl record? Or should I try it digital first and see what happens? Should I submit this to the radio? Or should I try and get into the satellite radio zone? Those are things that I need to I can't tell them honestly unless I've educated myself or even literally been on the front lines of advocating for them on their royalties to try and help them get paid because them getting paid means me getting paid, right? (Laughs) But also, just because it's fair that way. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Yeah. Skipper: Well, Piper, we're coming to the end of our time together, but I want to ask a couple of wrap-up questions that I ask all the guests -- what's something in your life that you wish you would have learned earlier? Like, what's a lesson that you carry in your life or in your work that you're like, boy, if I would have learned this X number of years ago, or X weeks ago? Piper: Well, that's a tough one. I think that for me, I because I've always been in this freelance work for hire kind of zone -- as an engineer, even owning my own business, and basically, you know, a repetitive entrepreneur, one of the things that I wish I had learned earlier would be that opportunities are incredible. And if you are in a place to take an opportunity, you need to, but it has to be right for you. You know, you can't just be haphazardly grabbing every opportunity you have. I mean, that's one. You know, the whole spaghetti at the wall thing has worked for me, but I'm 34. And I feel like I've been in this industry for 25 years, you know, so I've kind of been through it. So I think we're a little smarter, not less hard, but work just a little smarter. And I might have, you know, ended up at the same place, but been a little less tired. Skipper: Yeah, that focus on return on investment. Piper: Yeah. Skipper: And things around impact and effort. Piper: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think also, you know, as an engineer, and as a business owner, I spent so much time growing clientele, and growing my business and growing my skills and my experience that I forgot to, you know, look up and recognize that I had, you know, a wonderful relationship. And a good family that I don't see enough, and, you know, and friends that are, you know, luckily still around, but that we see each other way too infrequently. And I do wish, that's one thing that I would have spent more time on even just one day a month, just like take a break or take a vacation or just like, chill out for a minute, because I've basically been working every single day since I was in my early 20s. So it's kind of nuts. Skipper: That's a really good reminder. Piper: Mm-hmm. Skipper: So Piper, what are what are two things that you're really excited about right now? And the way I ask this question is maybe something that you're watching or listening to, or maybe something you're reading. Piper: (Exhales) Skipper: Just to throw something out there, I know Taylor Swift is re-recording her first couple of records. Piper: I'm so stoked about that. I mean, that was one of the things that when you first asked that question just now, one of the things that popped into my mind was the work that Taylor Swift is doing and her team, I know a couple of the folks on her team and they're all just killing it. They're doing a really, really beautiful job honoring her past recordings and portfolio and songs and making this beautiful new work of art out of it. Skipper: Nice. Piper: I think that's super cool. One of the things that I'm really excited about is -- it's gonna sound super nerdy -- but I'm really into cryptocurrency and non-fungible tokens, NFT's and the implications that NFT's have for art and also crypto has for art in general. And that's like a whole other hour I could speak with you. But I think that the fact that those things I told you just now about how artists get paid and how the actual royalties and the money has been stripped out of the music industry in the artists' hands and hasn't been stripped out. It's always been like that even down to old school recordings where you have these incredibly high-level people that made sounds that we grew up on that are basically, in financially insolvent, they can't, they can like barely live in a retirement home. So that money has always been in a really weird place as far as music goes. But this is a way that artists can take that money back into their own hands, which was why I got into vinyl in the first place. You know, you asked me if I am really all about the perfection and the challenge of recreating this thing. And partially it was just because I was so stubborn, I wanted to help my artists get their records made. But when I started digging into it, I realized that physical music products, which is oddly, the name of the company, physical music products are the only way that artists can recoup performances with what's called a mechanical royalty. Skipper: Okay. Piper: There are new ways of having digital or having digital recordings collect mechanical royalties. But for the most part, when an artist gets a record made, that's one of the only ways they can actually recoup the money from their recording process as an independent artist. And that's because they can actually control the number of copies that get made, and how much they sell them for. You can't do that in streaming, you can't do that even when it gets out into the world. It's a digital thing. And we have what's called DMCA from the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, but protections on a digital file. But those protections are decades old at this point. And digital, literally Digital Millennium Copyright Act means that that was made more than 21 years ago, that law before the internet is what it is. So all the laws that govern how digital music is consumed and paid for today, all those laws were made basically before the internet was what it is. Before the 2000s. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: Okay, so that mechanism being the only way an artist can properly recoup or control any way the sales of their records. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: It is the reason why I got into vinyl. Really. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And the fact that crypto and NFT's, in particular, are now a way for that artists to take those mechanisms into their own hands again, but in a digital realm. That's exciting. Skipper: Wow. You know, it didn't even occur to me that that's a potential. We've heard about other applications of this technology, but it just didn't even occur to me as a way to track and record keep around what's being played, how many times, etc. It's fascinating. Piper: Actually back in -- oh, gosh, I don't even remember what year this would have been like, I want to say '13. Maybe '14 I think it was 2013. There's a woman, really incredibly talented cellist, electronic cellist, named Zoe Keating. And she and a couple of other artists led this charge into YouTube because their music had been used so many times in ads. And like 1000s and 1000s of dollars were being generated for the person that grabbed her music online and threw it into an ad and they're making 10s of 1000s of dollars on these YouTube ads. And so this was the first time I ever heard of the blockchain was in conversations, listening into conversations with Zoe Keating and YouTube, talking about how to implement blockchain for music protection. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: On basically, you know, master verification, the owner verification on YouTube. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And that was ages ago. It's kind of amazing. Like, technology moves so fast, but it moves so slow. That was, that was almost a decade ago. It's just crazy. Skipper: That I mean, I really do feel like we could have an entire other conversation just on that topic alone. Piper: Let's do it. Skipper: Yeah? Okay, cool. Let's schedule something for the second season. So Piper, where can people find out more information about you? You know, we've talked about a few things, say the name of your company again. Piper: Yeah, I work for a mastering company called Infrasonic Mastering and I work out of the Nashville studio. We also have a studio in LA. And we master records for basically every budget level. We have five full-time mastering engineers, and really wonderful you know, wonderful staff of people to take care of your music. And I'm always around for a cheeseburger or a porch beer. So give us a call. Skipper: Is that why on your website, your favicon is a little cheeseburger. Piper: I just love cheeseburgers. They're just perfect. They're fully customizable. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: What you see is what you get. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: There's no surprises. And I mean, there's so many different types. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: What's not to like? I have a tattoo of a cheeseburger UFO abducting a french fry. Skipper: So good. As one last question, I'm so curious, if you're able to, you know, like, have all the ingredients that you could ever want, like, what is your perfect cheeseburger? Piper: Oh. My perfect cheeseburger is not even something I have control over. But it's just the most beautiful piece of food I've ever had. And it's by this guy named Sean Brock. He's a well known chef in one of the Carolinas, South Carolina. And he has a restaurant here in Nashville called Husk. Skipper: Okay. Piper: And that is my like, that's my white whale burger. Skipper: Okay. Piper: I love it if I have never found something that would beat it. Skipper: Okay. Piper: But yeah, it's just like this. Like, it's a smash burger. So it's this little patty of beef that's like put on to like the hottest sizzling grill for like, five seconds each side. And so it has this wonderful crust on it. And then he just has this awesome Dijon mustard and a little tiny bit of like homemade ketchup and really good cheese. Like that's all it is. It's just a really, really simple burger. But the way he does it is incredible. Skipper: Wow. I've seen a lot of things on Sean Brock. And I've always wanted to go and just haven't been able to get to that neck of the woods. Piper: If you ever get out here. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: I will take you for lunch once it's safe again. Skipper: Of course. Piper: At Husk. And we will get a husk burger. Skipper: Nice. Piper: Cuz it's an experience. Skipper: Yeah. Piper: And they only serve it at lunch. They don't serve it at dinner. Skipper: Okay. Cool. Well, thank you, Piper, I really appreciate that you made time today to chat with me and walk me through. I mean, I've learned so much just from our conversation. Piper: There's a lot to it. And I really appreciate your attention and lots of great questions and I had a blast. So thanks for having me. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How This Works. Please follow or subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show and it would mean so much if you could tell one other person about it and why they should listen. You can find How This Works online at howthisworks.show. Again, that’s howthisworks.show. We’re also active in the places where social media happens. I hope that you learned something from my conversation with Piper. For sure, I did. And we’ll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: In talking today, I was going to introduce you as an audio mastering engineer is that the right way to refer to you? Piper: Yeah, if we're talking to a group of people that are not audio people or have never been a part of the music industry, then audio mastering engineer is a perfectly fine way to describe my job. Skipper: Okay. If you were -- just for sake of clarification -- if you were someone in the business, what would you be called? Piper: A mastering engineer. Skipper: A mastering engineer specifically okay. So that's why when I see on liner notes, things like mastered by -- okay, so you don't have to preface it.