Skipper Chong Warson: This week, we're replaying Chris Landon's episode. We'll be back next week with a new episode from Sarah Sudhoff. And following that, the last episode of the first season, one where we turn the tables and my wife Laura asks me questions -- they'll be ask me anything style. Find us on Instagram at @howthisworksshow to contribute questions. [Intro music] Skipper: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. And this is How This Works, a show where I invite people on to talk about topics that they know incredibly well. And today I have Chris Landon with me. Chris is going to talk to us about his lifelong love of horror movies and how that's played into his work as a screenwriter and as a director. Thanks for making time today, Chris. Chris Landon: Thanks for having me on Skipper. Skipper: So we like to start the show by getting to know our guests. And so I'll ask a general question. Chris, who are you? Chris: Who am I? This is could take a while. Skipper: We could get into the really metaphysical nature of it, yeah. Chris: Exactly. First and foremost, I am a husband and a father. I live in Los Angeles, California. I was born and raised here. Skipper: Okay. Chris: I grew up in the entertainment industry. My dad was very active — he was a writer, director, producer, and actor. And so I was one of those Hollywood kids, so to speak. And I grew up on TV sets. And so it's always been around me. And -- Skipper: Okay. Chris: I've always had a love for entertainment, but more specifically, a love for films, and even more specifically, for genre films. And I've always been a hardcore movie buff and I was that kid who grew up watching tons and tons of movies every single weekend, instead of going outside and playing with other kids and things like that. That's really who I am. And I did not evolve very much beyond my childhood, sort of an arrested development of sorts, and I still love movies very, very, very much -- even though I love my kids and my husband too. Skipper: So Chris, what's something about you that many people might not guess -- something, of course, that you feel comfortable sharing? Chris: Man, that's -- I think something that people probably don't know about me is that I'm obnoxiously picky about food. Only the people that are truly close to me know that and it's something that annoyed my family growing up and annoys most people around me to this day because I despise so many things. And I don't know why. And I took a test once that it was some sort of -- my husband, Cody saw something on Oprah or whatever. And it was a mail-in test where you could find out if you were a supertaster. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And it turns out that I might be one of these people. And I guess supertasters are people who have a heightened sense of taste. And it's why typically people who don't like things fall into this category. And so I don't like fish or seafood or condiments of any kind. I don't like raw onions or tomatoes -- there's a huge menu of things I don't like. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And so yeah, it's a weird tidbit about me. Skipper: So, Chris, what are we talking about today? And I gave some of it away in the introduction. But you know, I want my guests to say the thing that we're going to talk about -- what are we going to talk about today that you know an awful lot about? Chris: We're gonna talk about horror movies. We're just gonna talk about, we're gonna talk about genre filmmaking. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And it is something that I know a lot about. And it's also something that I'm still learning a lot about. Skipper: Okay. Chris: Which is kind of interesting. Skipper: Yeah. How did you -- let's get into the time machine and rewind -- like, how did you first discover horror or genre movies? Chris: I discovered horror when I was a wee lad. I was a little kid. And I mean, look, I have my first vivid memory of watching a horror film. Skipper: Okay. Chris: My parents were watching Hitchcock's "Psycho" one night and I had snuck out of bed and into their bedroom without them knowing it and I hid behind this big swivel chair in their room and I hid behind the chair and I watched the movie and, and I somehow made it through the shower scene, you know, until -- I was probably, no joke, about five -- I made it through the shower scene, stayed quiet, was riveted, riveted, and then at the end of the film when Norman Bates comes barreling down the basement stairs dressed as his mother -- Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But with that maniacal grin on his face with the knife raised, I shrieked, I just started screaming and I think it was because, you know, I was old enough to sort of understand genders and I had never seen a man dressed as a woman. And furthermore, a man dressed as a woman holding a knife trying to kill somebody. And so it's scary. It scared the living shit out of me. And my mom whisked me off to my room and I was sort of punished, scolded, and also loved on. Skipper: Sure, comforted. Chris: I was comforted. But I do remember a thrill, feeling a zing to it all. And then my parents, not long after divorced -- not because of the incident but for many other reasons. Skipper: Sure. Chris: And so my dad became a Sunday father, as they say. He had us on the weekends. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I remember going to the video store with my sister who was a couple of years older than me. And we were like any other kid growing up in the '80s, where we would go to the video store, and we'd rent movies that were sort of basic stuff, like Disney stuff, or Amblin stuff, or whatever. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But there was the horror section, it was always the forbidden zone. And in old school video stores, as you recall, especially the mom and pop ones, the horror section was always adjacent to the hidden porn section. So it's almost like, oh my God, what is that area? Skipper: It's all taboo. Chris: It's so taboo. And I just remember one day, I wandered over to that section and started looking at the videocassette covers, and I didn't get in trouble. And my sister and I picked a movie and I honestly wish I could remember which one it was but -- Skipper: Okay. Chris: (My dad) was like, he kind of shrugged and said, Fine. And so we rented a horror movie. And we -- Skipper: Okay. Chris: By the way, can I swear? Is swearing allowed here? Skipper: Yeah. Chris: I fucking loved it. And I think it made my dad, you know, my dad was trying to be the good guy like he wanted to win this contest that he was in with my mother, which was like, Who's the coolest parent? So he was going to be the cool dad. And part of that was, I'm gonna let my kids watch horror movies at a wildly inappropriate age. Skipper: Sure. Chris: And I also think it was a 'fuck you' to my mom because my mom was trying to manage our childhoods and be the custodian of good parenting while my dad was over there throwing Molotov cocktails at her. So we started watching horror movies every weekend, and this was around when I was about seven years old. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And he did manage it to some degree, like there were certain films we were not allowed to watch. There was one movie, in particular, that was called "I Spit on Your Grave" which was a rape-revenge movie. And so he at least drew the line somewhere. Skipper: Sure. Chris: But you know, from seven on, we were watching the classics, like "Halloween", "The Exorcist", and "The Shining" -- and all of these films -- and then also some pretty weird fringy trashy stuff because the '80s was also the heyday of direct-to-video horror, it was a newer thing. So you got a lot of crazy stuff but yeah, I was just growing up on a steady diet of horror films. Skipper: So how did you know that that's something that you wanted to make? That this was a genre in which you want it to work? Chris: I don't think I really was able to wrap my brain around the idea of actually making these films until I was in high school. And really, when I was a junior in high school, I started to pick up a camera and make short films. And they were weird ridiculous short films. I usually wrote them or shot them when I was baked. So my friends and I would just get stoned and make really weird stupid horror films. I remember -- Skipper: Do you still have anything? Do you still have any of them? Chris: I have one of them — somewhere tucked away in our attic. Skipper: Okay. Chris: It's funny -- one of the films that we made was was a sequel to "Xanadu" but reimagined as a zombie apocalypse film. Skipper: That's awesome. Chris: So it's people on roller skates eating each other, which is really the idea of it. And what's funny is that I was in my late 20s, I was stopped on the streets here in LA by a total stranger who was like, Oh my god, "Xanadu 2". And I found out from this person that this short film I made with my friends in high school became a bootleg thing that got passed around at colleges. Skipper: Hmm. Chris: And people watched it, like when they were shit faced at college parties and laughing their asses off. And so I had a little taste of celebrity. Because we were all in the movies. Skipper: Sure. Chris: It started in high school but even then, it wasn't like, Oh, I have this career path. I'm gonna go pursue this. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But I did. I did want it somehow. So, I went to college, I majored in film production. And then what really opened, I think, the world up for me was I ended up in an internship program at a production company that was on the Disney lot. And it was called Woods Entertainment. And it was a program I wasn't supposed to get into. It was this very elite fancy program that was supposed to be all Ivy League. And my application got mixed up. And the head of the company, or the guy who owned the company, Cary Woods, thought that I was his therapist's son. And so he told the person who ran the program, Oh, you have to accept this guy because it's my therapist's son. Skipper: Got it. Chris: And so I got into this program. And then they realized after the fact that I wasn't that person, but I was already there so they better keep me. Skipper: Sure. Chris: Because it was really funny -- all the kids in the program, they literally all went to Harvard and Yale and Brown and Princeton, and I was the only person who went to Loyola Marymount, and they were like, Who's this idiot in our group? But it was in that program that I was exposed to how movies are made from the ground up. And I read constantly. I was always reading screenplays. And that's where I was like, Oh, I could do this. Skipper: Did you ever meet the therapist's son? Chris: No. Skipper: Did he ever show up at the program? Chris: No. He got -- obviously he didn't get his shot because I took it, right? Skipper: Yeah. Chris: So thank you, whoever you are. I don't know who you are. But you kick-started my whole career path and are partly responsible for my joy. So I'm very happy. Skipper: Yeah, that's quite a happy accident for you anyway, like you said -- Chris: Yeah. Skipper: So you started along this path, you got this opportunity with the production company. What happens next? Like when did you start making something, understanding that you made some stuff in high school and there were things that you made in college as well? But when did you make something that you felt like was a success? Chris: Well, first of all, I guess you have to define what success is. But I -- Skipper: That's a good point. Chris: What started my career in earnest was I made a short film -- Skipper: Okay. Chris: With a friend of mine, it was with a film school buddy of mine, and it wasn't part of a class or part of any program, it was like we had a summer. And we both agreed that we didn't want to spend it sort of dicking around and doing nothing. And so I had written something that I thought really worked as a short film because it was dramatic -- and then it had a big twist. Like Shyamalan ending, you know, that made everybody gasp. And we begged for money. We begged for everything and got it. We made this little short film. And then we did something really unusual. Back in the day, there was this book called LA 411. And it was a Hollywood production company book, a directory. Skipper: Okay. Chris: It had every address of every production company in Hollywood. And so we went to an indie theater and we begged for a half-hour of free time on a Tuesday afternoon and asked if we could screen our short film at this theater that we were very proud of. Skipper: Okay. Chris: We made postcards that were invites to the screening and then I cold mailed these -- because this is pre email and blasted the town. And -- Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And lo and behold, out of the 400 cards I sent out, three people show. (Laughs) But one of them was a producer. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And they said, I like this. And do you have a writing sample? Skipper: Okay. Chris: I'd written a horror screenplay that I'd just finished and it was the only sample I had. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And I gave it to them. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And they ended up giving this writing sample to Larry Clark. And Larry Clark was a film director, he made a wildly popular film called "Kids". But Larry was also a very well known and very accomplished photographer. And Larry read my script and really liked it. And so this was the kind of unique situation that I ended up in, which was, they were looking to adapt a book -- Skipper: Okay. Chris: Into a feature. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I was a nobody, kid off the street, in college. And so they said, Look, we're gonna give you the book and we're gonna let you adapt half of it, you can write half the screenplay. And if we like it, what you write, then we'll make a contract with you. And we'll hire you officially. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And if we don't like it, you just go on your way. Skipper: Sure. Chris: And so I stuck the landing, thank God. They liked what I wrote. And then I finished the script and the movie got made, which was an even bigger shock. So I'm 20 years old. And I'm in college still. And my first feature gets made and at the time it was James Woods, Melanie Griffith, and Vincent Kartheiser. And it had a really good cast, and a giant premiere at the Toronto International Film Festival and the whole bit, so I went from a total unknown obscurity to an overnight success at a very, very young age. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And it was very jarring for me because I was so young. And I was still in college, I became very quickly this sort of thing that people in Hollywood wanted, because they were like, Oh, this guy's a kid. And he did this thing, it's impressive and I just ended up underwater. Just no idea what I was doing. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But that was my big break. Skipper: Okay. And what movie was that? Chris: It was called "Another Day in Paradise". Skipper: Okay. Chris: It was a crazy experience. For sure. Skipper: So, what -- How do I phrase this question? So, from that movie, what happened? Like, what was your next step in realizing your dream of writing and directing horror movies? Chris: Well, I'll start with this, which was -- I quickly decided after making my first short film that I was not ready for directing. I didn't want to, I did not want to move into that space anymore because I felt like I just wasn't ready and I wanted to work under other people and learn more about it. So I focused on the writing. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And after "Another Day in Paradise" came out, I got assignment work quickly. So there was another photographer who had a book, Lauren Greenfield, who was a very well known and established photographer who would canvass different parts of LA and whatnot. Anyway, they wanted to turn one of her photography books into a movie. And so I got that job. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I botched that job, pretty big time. And I was then hired to adapt -- Skipper: And at this point is the -- sorry, is the writing work that you're doing, is it specific to horror or is it more agnostic? Chris: It's more agnostic. I mean, one project was a drama and one project was a tongue-in-cheek werewolf movie. And just to set the scene again, I'm 20, 21 now. And I'm getting big studio gigs. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And I'm also concurrently coming to terms with my sexuality. I'm coming out to my family. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And there was so much happening to me all at once and I just did not have the tools or the bandwidth to manage it all and deal with it. And so long story long, these writing jobs did not go well. I continued to pursue a writing career for a few more years and then I lost my agent, I got basically fired by everybody. Skipper: I see. Chris: And so I really stopped writing. Skipper: I see. Chris: And had to go and get a job, like grow up and get a fucking job. A friend of mine worked at MTV and he helped get me a job. And I was working on a show called "Making the Video" for MTV. And that was my paying gig. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I still continued to write a little bit on the side. And yeah, I was stuck. And I had given up on the whole career thing. And then it got worse. Skipper: Oh, no. Oh no! Chris: No, it's good. This is good stuff -- like I mean, good in the sense of you go back, and you see how all these things that were so painful and felt insurmountable ended up becoming the bridges to your future. And -- so my career's in the shitter -- and I'm not terribly happy and I've given up on film making altogether. And then, one of my best friends died. And then the next day -- Skipper: I'm sorry. Chris: Yeah -- it was hard. It was super hard. And then the next day, my sort of "brother in law" died. So it was these two deaths that happened back to back, they literally were a day apart. And I was like, Fuck, I gotta get, I gotta get out of here. And so I left LA for the first time in my life. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And moved to Austin, Texas. And that's where my new life began, really. Because at that point was like, Okay, now I'm gonna get my real estate license. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I'm gonna sell houses in Texas. And so I was alone there. I didn't really know anyone. I had a couple of people around, but not for long. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But yeah, I was by myself. And I spent months and months on end, not even speaking to other human beings because I didn't know anyone. And I'm an introvert so it's not like, I'm going to go out and like, meet people and make friends. Skipper: Sure. Chris: So I write something for the first time there in a long, long, long time. And I wrote a pilot, which I had never done before -- a TV pilot. Skipper: Oh, okay. Chris: And I did it as an exercise. And I did it because I had something that I wanted to work out. Skipper: Okay. Chris: In my brain and in my art. And then I ended up sending that script to a friend of mine who worked in Hollywood, and I said, Will you read this and just tell me if it's terrible? Skipper: Okay. Chris: Because I honestly didn't know anymore if I was a decent writer, or if I was ever a decent writer. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And I sent it to her, and then I didn't hear back from her for a while and so then I was like, Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. Like, why did I do this? Skipper: My friend doesn't even want to tell me, yeah. Chris: And that's the worst feeling because you're like, Oh, when your friend won't call you back, you're in trouble. Skipper: That's right. Chris: Yeah. But my friend calls me back. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And she says, Hey, I'm sorry, it took me so long and I hope you don't mind, but I sold your pilot. Skipper: Oh, oh. Chris: Yeah. So that was the big moment for me. That was -- it was a calling and a sort of redeeming moment. And so I moved back to LA. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And I started to actually try this again. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And care about this again. And I was 29 years old, I think, at that point. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And that pilot never got made. Skipper: Okay. Chris: It didn't happen. But while I was waiting to find out what was going to happen to that pilot, I wrote a script called "Disturbia", which then got made and that was my next big break. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And then I feel like from "Disturbia" on was when I had momentum, and I was able to continue to work consistently. Skipper: Yeah, I love that analogy -- you know, that idea of the things that hold us up are bridges to the things that we're going to do next. So I love that optimism that you carry with you, Chris. When you were working on the pilot, or subsequently on "Disturbia", or any of the other writing that you did in sort of that reboot period -- did you approach it differently? Are there different things that you did from the first time around? Chris: I did. I did a lot of things differently. I think the first thing that I did was I stopped trying to cater to other people's -- what I thought other people's wants and needs and desires were. I was always trying to sort of write stuff that I thought somebody would want to see. Skipper: I see. Chris: And then I actually started to discover that I wanted to write things that I wanted to see. And so I think "Disturbia" was a good example of that because, you know, I grew up on Hitchcock -- funny enough, which is sort of where this conversation began. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But I also grew up on John Hughes. And so my whole approach to "Disturbia" was, could I make "Rear Window" by way of John Hughes? And that really has become, I would say, if there is a certain kind of a plan or brand or whatever you want to call it in my career, it has been to take ideas or concepts and I like to sort of reinvent them, or turn them inside out, you know what I mean? And so it's become a thing that I've done quite frequently in my career. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And that was just because I wanted to, I felt like there was something missing, there was a gap, there was a niche that I wasn't seeing in Hollywood, and it was sort of like, Where did these films go? Like, where did this sort of like John Hughes or Amblin-y vibe go? Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And it seemed lacking and missing. And so that was something that I started to pursue. So that was one kind of thing that I did differently, I started writing movies that I wanted to see, instead of worrying about what other people thought. And then the other big thing was, I treated it more like a job in many ways. Like I structured my day, I set goals and boundaries and all of these different rules that I had for myself. But then, moreover, I became a good listener. And I stopped feeling challenged or threatened by other people's opinions. You know, that was the thing that I struggled with a lot earlier in my career was that when I got notes from people, I didn't take it as feedback, I took it as criticism. Skipper: I see. Chris: And I didn't know the difference. And I finally learned that it's not -- we are all in this together. Not always, but most of the time, everyone really is trying to make a good film. Skipper: Sure. Chris: And even though your opinion may differ, often, when I would get a note that I didn't necessarily agree with, I learned that even though it's not the right approach, they're stopping in that spot for a reason. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: Something is, something's not clicking for them. And so my job was to try and interpret that -- and at least do it in a way that made it work for me. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: So it really just became a sort of a growing-up process and embracing the process and embracing the collaborative nature of it, too. Skipper: Yeah. It sounds like a couple of things were happening for you. Number one, discovering this level of authenticity and the way in which you told stories, like going back and telling the kind of stories that were interesting to you, but then also simultaneously, not taking it personal. Chris: Right. Skipper: It was business. Chris: Yeah. Skipper: And the difference between critique and feedback, this notion that not everything someone says is true just because someone's feeling it. You may not agree, you can look at it and entertain that notion, but in the end, this is your work. Chris: Yeah. I mean, it's such a funny job -- writing, directing, and just filmmaking in general, because you are working within a very subjective medium. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And yet, a lot of people will try to assert things as these definitive and objective things -- like, this is how it's supposed to be. But no, it's not. It's like, you know, it could be anything, right? But like I said, it's been the journey, it's really been about becoming a better listener and a better partner. And it's made me infinitely happier with the work too because you can step into things and not be so emotional and crazy. And, you know, you can just do the work sometimes. Skipper: Yeah. Well, one thing that I want to get into because you do have a movie that's out right now, and, you know, you didn't agree to be on the podcast  to plug your movie but I think that there are so many things that exist inside of "Freaky" that fit into some of the things that we've just talked about. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how you came up with that idea, specifically, because it sounds almost exactly like what you just talked about this notion of mashing up several different ideas into one melange of a movie. Chris: Right. It's funny, so "Freaky", it was actually not my idea. So my writing partner, Michael Kennedy, this was an idea that he brought to me and I had just come off of making "Happy Death Day" and "Happy Death Day 2 U", which were mash-ups as well. It was sort of -- Skipper: Yeah. Chris: The slasher version of "Groundhog Day". So yeah, I did not want to do another mash-up movie. Skipper: I see. Chris: So when Michael came to me, he had an idea for a movie that he wanted to go out and pitch, and as a writer friend -- Skipper: Yeah. Chris: He just needed a sounding board. He wanted to pitch it to somebody before -- it was like a practice run. Skipper: Yeah. Okay. Chris: And he pitched it to me and I fell in love with it right away. And I immediately started pitching a ton of stuff back to him. Like, Oh, you have to have this scene, and you have to do this and this character -- and then it dawned on us that it was something that we should do together. Skipper: Sure. Chris: And so we wrote it together, which was a first for me, I have either written things, I've rewritten other people's work, or I've written my own stuff. And this was the first time where I was going to physically sit down with another human being and write a movie with them. Skipper: Okay. Chris: But it was very easy. Because Michael and I are both huge genre fans. You know, we love horror movies, and he, like me, grew up in genre. But I think what really unified us and really drove the process and why we wanted to make "Freaky" was that we both were bullied, closeted gay kids in high school. Skipper: Okay. Chris: And so in "Freaky", the lead character, Millie Kessler, she's a sort of put upon bullied wallflower type who switches bodies with a serial killer. And so suddenly, this maniac is walking around in this girl's body and starts to pick off a bunch of people who also happen to be Millie's tormentors, you know, and so for Michael and me, I think there was a certain amount of fantasy, you know, and wish-fulfillment in the premise. And so that's why I think -- Skipper: Just desserts in a way. Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: So that's why we wrote the movie together. Skipper: Yeah. What are -- and I know that you've been asked this question a ton of times -- but what are some of your favorite horror films and TV shows? Chris: Oh, god, this is always a tough one because there's too many. There are too many. And the influences are all over the place. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: Horror movies -- I mean, look, I have said this before, I worship at the altar of John Carpenter. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: For many reasons. But he has made, you know, two -- and I have many favorite horror films -- but he's made two: the original "Halloween", obviously, and "The Thing". I mean, those are amazing features. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But, you know, so those are, those are top top top. But I mean, it's always the classics. It's the "Exorcist". And "Rosemary's Baby" was a very, very influential movie. I've seen that film probably over 100 times. I love that movie so much because I learned so much about performance. I think it's such a great study in magnificent performances. So I think that's it for me on the feature side of it but I grew up watching lots of different movies and different kinds of movies that had such a strong influence on me, you know. Another movie that I watched over and over and over again, as a kid, that was not a horror film was "Terms of Endearment". And it's an interesting thing to bring up because if you look at "Happy Death Day", its sequel, and "Freaky", they deal with death and loss. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And even as a kid, that touched me in a pretty deep way. And so that was a very influential movie for me as well. TV shows like: (blows a raspberry). I've been all over the place with that stuff. I mean, I literally just finished "Game of Thrones", right? I had never watched "Game of Thrones". And I watched it during, you know, the pandemic, because it was finally an opportunity to catch up to something. And sure, I really loved not watching it during the whole crazy hysteria that was around that show but I got it. Like, I watched this thing and I was like, Oh, that was one of the most magnificent, unbelievably epic things I've ever seen. Period. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: Start to finish. So -- and I didn't hate the end of it as much as everybody else did, because I wasn't caught in the fervor of what they did. I have opinions about what I think went wrong there but I still really enjoyed it. But yeah, I mean, I'm much more of a movie guy, way more. Skipper: Okay. Well, speaking of movies, a couple of years ago, I was putting together a movie screening and it was supposed to be the best worst Halloween movies or horror movies rather -- Chris: Yeah. Skipper: And I thought, Chris is the person to ask and I sent you a text. And I think literally within five minutes, you sent me back 1, 2, 3, 4 movies in quick succession. You recommended -- Chris: I'm disappointed it took me that long. Skipper: (Laughs) You sent me "Mother's Day" (1980), "Don't Go in the Woods" (1981), and "Theater of Blood" (1973). And -- no, I guess -- Sorry, I've lost my list. 1, 2 -- Chris: Was it just three? There are many more. Skipper: Yeah, I'm sure there are. But why, why are those, in your opinion, the best worst horror movies? Chris: By the way -- again, as I go back to the previous answer -- that's just a sample. Skipper: Totally. Yeah. Chris: That list can get a whole lot longer. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: I think they're great because they are -- I mean, look, there's a couple of those are super camp, you know, they're really over the top, the acting is over the top. In some cases, the quality of the filmmaking is somewhat poor. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: But there's also still something so watchable about them. And they're fun. And that's what -- that's my whole thing. For me, the ultimate sin is to be boring. And so they're never that and you can still make odd discoveries with multiple viewings. And that's another thing that I really appreciate in movies. You don't notice something that you catch another time. And it's not necessarily a good thing. You could be like, Oh, my God, I didn't notice the boom pop into frame there. Or, you know, they're wearing two different shoes or whatever. Skipper: The goofs, yeah. Chris: The goofs and the sort of -- there's a movie from the '80s called "Madman". Skipper: Okay. Chris: Which also, I think was called "Madman Mars". Skipper: Okay. Chris: And it was another slasher, you know, whatever. But there's a scene in the movie, there's a hot tub scene with this couple, and they're swirling around each other. And it goes on for 10 fucking minutes. And the music's terrible. And if you watch this and you watch this with other people, you die, you howl. And I think that's the other thing too, the communal aspect of it. There is nothing better than getting a bunch of people together and watching a bad horror movie. It's better than any comedy, you know. So I think that's where my love for things that are cheesy and campy and you know, it's just an awesome experience to have with other people. Skipper: Yeah. I love that you just talked about one of the scenes from "Happy Death Day 2 U" around being not just dealing with horror, but also dealing with death. Without giving too much away, one of the main characters faces the decision to have her mother re-die. (Pauses) It's funny, I don't usually get emotional about things but even just thinking about that scene makes me really emotional. Because I think that you hit such a note of poignancy that I just didn't expect in initially watching this movie. And so the question that I was going to ask you, I'm not a horror movie person. I'm not. I generally don't like watching horror movies. I have a hard line on not watching zombie movies. What do you say to people who say, I'm not a horror person. I don't like those films. Chris: Well, if I didn't like you already, Skipper, I would tell you to fuck off and die, but -- (laughs) that's what I usually say that people don't like horror films. No, I'm kidding. (Pauses) Look, I think that a lot of people have a fear of death or they don't like things that are gruesome or gory, or whatever the case may be. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And I think sometimes what happens a lot too is that people dismiss horror films as cruel or, you know, kind of like warped or twisted or sick or whatever the case may be. A lot of horror films do not give their characters the sort of proper attention, you know, they don't spend the time to develop the characters or give them arcs or give them agency. And so part of my approach to stuff especially over the past few years has been very focused on just that, which is I'm going to use this genre as a Trojan horse and I'm going to smuggle much weightier themes inside of a movie that just looks cute and fun and scary. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And I did that with "Happy Death Day". And I really did that with "Happy Death Day 2 U" because I was still wrestling -- and I continue to wrestle -- with my grief and my loss. We touched on this earlier when one of my close friends passed away. But you know, my father passed away when I was 16 and my mother passed away two years before I made "Happy Death Day". And so there's been a lot of grief that has informed my work. And so for me, I think that non-horror fans out there should know that there's still a lot to gain from the genre if you have a good guidebook, you know. I think that, as people realize, too, it can be an incredibly powerful genre. You know, you look at a movie like "Get Out" -- which everybody references -- but that is a classic example of how the genre can be used to incredible, powerful social effect. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And we all wrestle with everyday horrors and that's why many horror fans, like me, become horror fans, because we're looking for a place to put our fear. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: You know, because life is horrific. And so it was no accident that I fell in love with horror when my life as a child was in total chaos and flux. I was going through a divorce with my parents, and there was so much uncertainty and terror in my life in that sense. And I had this thing that I could go and watch, and I could be afraid and it was very cathartic. Skipper: Hmm. Chris: So to non-horror fans, you're missing out, you can save, you'll save some fucking money on therapy. Because, by the way, true horror fans, I find in my experience of going out into the world and meeting so many of them, they're very happy, well-adjusted people. I'm more worried about the motherfucker who watches Hallmark all day. That person is going to kill you in real life, okay? Skipper: Yeah. Chris: Not the horror fan. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: So yeah, it's very cathartic. Skipper: Yeah. Well, Chris, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to get into? Chris: No, I think we covered it. Skipper: Yeah, this has been a great conversation so far. So I'd love to turn to a couple of the questions that we close out every show with what's something in your life, or in your work, a lesson that you've learned? That you wish you would have learned earlier? Chris: Oh, God, how do I answer this without it sounding trite? I would probably tell myself that I don't have to be so hard on myself -- that the measure of success was not gonna be, you know, it was not built by movies or sort of those types of achievements. I think I put so much pressure on myself that early on, I had to be somebody special or important. And I had to do great things. I just remember that constant, sense of feeling disappointed in myself. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: And it was relentless. And it really made me very unhappy. And sad. And so I wish I could have told myself, Chill the fuck out. That stuff doesn't matter that much. You know that there are other things in life that are far more important. And I think becoming a husband and especially becoming a father really pulled focus for me. Skipper: Yeah. Chris: In ways that I never could have imagined. So yeah, I think I would just tell myself, It's all cool. Don't worry about it. It's gonna work out. Skipper: That's great. Yeah. (Pauses) So I know that "Freaky" is available to watch online, in all the places -- I think I saw it on Apple TV the other day, the service, not the physical device, but what else should we be watching for that you have coming up? Chris: Ah, well. Nothing that's coming out anytime soon. I've got a couple, we are in pre-production on a couple movies -- two that I'm producing, one that I wrote. One is an adaptation of an unbelievable book called "My Best Friend's Exorcism", which was written by a guy named Grady Hendrix. It's a really, really good book -- highly recommended. It's like, if you can imagine, "The Exorcist" by way of "Stand by Me". Skipper: Okay. Chris: It's great, it's really cool. So I'm really excited about that feature, it's for Amazon. It starts shooting in March. And so I'm super excited about that. And then the other film that I wrote and I'm producing is a reboot of the "Paranormal Activity" franchise, which is not something I actually ever thought I would do again. Skipper: Sure. Chris: But I couldn't resist. I had an idea for it and we just kind of ran with it. So that's something that also starts shooting in March. So that's hopefully going to come out, you know, they're gonna try and release it in October. We'll see. Skipper: I see. Chris: And that's kind of what's happening right now. On the directing front, you know, there's stuff that I'm pulling together but you know, it's a tricky business. So -- and no one's in a hurry right now. Thank God. So it's fine. Skipper: Sure. "Xanadu 3"? Chris: Not "Xanadu" -- I would love it. Totally. I was on a call today and we were talking about Area 51. But I always fuck that up and I call it Area 54. And then I realized that I'm trying to make a movie about cocaine-snorting aliens in a nightclub or something. And I'm like, That's just I should be doing now. Skipper: I think that's what you should be doing. Yeah, absolutely. Skipper: It could be good. Come on, a disco-era alien movie. Come on. Skipper: I'd watch it. Chris: I would too. Skipper: Well, thanks Chris. I really appreciate you making time today. Chris: It was awesome. Thanks, Skipper. It was really fun. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How This Works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please subscribe and leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. This is our first season and so it would mean so much if you could just tell one other person about the show and why they should listen. You can find How This Works online at howthisworks.show. It's three words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active on social media. I hope that you enjoyed my conversation with Chris. I had a great time. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: I see. Chris: And so they offered me a job. They offered me a writing job. Skipper: Oh, wow. Chris: A legit writing job. (Siri in the background) Yeah. And just talking -- want me to do it again? Skipper: Yeah, one more time. Sorry, sometimes when I say, "I see" then my Siri goes off. It really bugs the shit out of me. Chris: (Laughs) So I'll take it back a little bit. So I --