[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. Thanks for listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about a topic that they know a lot about. And today, I have Sarah Sudhoff with me. We're going to talk about how she works as an artist, and her background as a photographer, arts administrator, and photo editor. Thanks for taking the time to be here, Sarah. Sarah Sudhoff: Thanks so much for having me, Skipper. Skipper: Of course -- Sarah, let's start with you. And specifically, let's start with pronouns. My pronouns are he and him. How would you like to be referred? Sarah: Her and she. Skipper: Awesome. So Sarah, who are you? Will you tell us a few things. Sarah: I am an artist, a visual artist, performer, super multitasker extraordinaire, single mom... Skipper: Is the multitasker related to being a mom or a single mom or an artist? Where do you find the most leverage? Sarah: I think it's both. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: I mean, I have to multitask so much -- well, in any position I've ever held. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Arts administration, photo editing, you're constantly multitasking. You have to be very strategic and be good at logistics. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: As a single parent, you have to be extraordinary at logistics -- extraordinary. Skipper: (Laughs) Yeah. Sarah: And manage minions very well. (Laughs) And I started getting my children to make their own lunches for school. That is a game-changer. Let me just tell you -- Skipper: Oh yeah. Yeah. Is it to the point where they can fully make the lunch? Or are you in double-check mode still, or -- Sarah: They're probably making lunch about once a week. So I'm overseeing, or I'm at least laying out the material or options for them. And then they're choosing and you know -- Skipper: Okay. Sarah: And then you know, as an artist, I'm constantly trying to figure out, you know, like, this week, we'll be updating the website and applying for grants and backing up the computer and organizing the computer, and following up with calls and conversations. And it's wearing multiple hats that all come under the umbrella of artists. Skipper: Right. So just what I heard you say, right there, you talked about being a website designer, you talked about being a grant writer, you talked about being an IT administrator of some sort. Sarah: Mm-hm. Skipper: So not just the nuts and bolts of creation, but then also all the mechanics in the backstage stuff. Sarah: Yeah, the back end, or the administration, which is so not the fun part. Skipper: Right. Sarah: But yeah, there's just, it's never-ending. And of course, as an artist, I just want to make and play and show. But you have to do the maintenance part to make sure that you're doing justice to the work, and also trying to get the work seen or recognized or supported in other ways. I won a month ago now, and I have not started that work. Because I just came off this one project, I need to update the website and do a little bit more with that. And then I can switch gears to the new project and start figuring out what that looks like and how that's going to roll out now that I've received half the funding. And I don't receive the rest of the grant until the project is done. And I have a year to do it. Skipper: So another thing that I hear you saying is that all of this stuff is pretty low pressure, right? There's no pressure at all to make compelling work or to make the right thing. Or even make sure that your kids have lunches -- this is all super low-pressure stuff. Sarah: Oh, well. I have no idea anymore. I mean, I just came off of: Can you make a solo exhibition and including two performances in a month and a half? You know? Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Which I just knocked out -- the fastest I've ever made work in my entire life. And everything now seems easy. So talking about stress, I don't know. I'm always in a state of stress. Skipper: Yeah. Have you just become numb to it at this point? Sarah: I don't think numb. Just that you adapt. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: I couldn't operate like that all the time. I knew the deadline was coming. I knew I needed to hit it. I wasn't sure how much material I would have made, I was happy with how much I made in such a short period of time and the response that it's already gotten. But I could not operate at that level full time, I'd be burnt out in six months. Skipper: So I want to get back to the work that you just premiered. We'll circle back to that in a little bit but I want to finish the last of our standard intro questions. So, Sarah, what's something that you feel comfortable sharing with us? Something that people might not guess about you? Sarah: I would say most people don't know that I come from a military family. And both my grandfather and father were Navy pilots. My grandmother was a WAVE. My uncles were in the Navy, and my aunt was in the Air Force. Skipper: What's a WAVE? Sarah: And a WAVE was the first female recruits for the Navy. Skipper: Oh, cool. Sarah: So can I list her actual jobs? No. But they were called WAVES. So this would have been in the '40s, '30s, I guess? Skipper: The '40s, yeah. Sarah: You know, I've lived all over the world. I was born in Hawaii, lived in the Philippines, lived in Florida, Pennsylvania, and Texas, okay. And my cousin was lucky enough to be born in Spain, I was born in America, I'd love to have dual citizenship. But moving all the time was very difficult as a child, but, you know, prepared me for the life, you know, sort of primed me well, for the type of life I have, I'm constantly having to navigate, pivot, I'm almost a chameleon when I need to be so I can blend into almost any situation pretty easily and adapt very quickly. And then on the type of surroundings or environment that I'm putting put myself into, and maybe in some ways that, you know, helped me or supported me and the types of art projects that I work on, because I can go into any situation and you know, find my niche or find the people the right people that I need to talk to. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: I've never lived any place long or at least growing up. Now. I have been growing up, it was like two to three years, I was constantly moving. I liked to move. I'm in the process of moving now. You can see boxes behind me. Skipper: I wondered, okay, Sarah: Yeah, there are boxes. But I really like to move for some strange reason... But it allows me I think to like, cleanse my house. And you know -- Skipper: A reset. Sarah: Yeah, it's like a reset. I enjoyed doing that. Because I was sort of forced to do that as a child. But because of the military because of moving all the time, I have no like how I have no childhood home. I've never had a childhood home. So when people talk about, oh, I grew up in this house or my childhood friends from elementary, I have no idea what they're talking about. I have no connection to that, is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. My tribe, my children don't have a childhood home, they've moved so much as well because I grew up moving. My children have also grown up sometimes within the same city, versus you know, from state to state or country to country. But I do have places that I am drawn to Tennessee, which my grandparents used to live in, and I visited all the time. And then Destin, Florida, which I still go back to you all the time, those are sort of my pseudo homes that I felt feel an affinity towards because I don't have a childhood home or childhood neighborhood or, or even groups of friends from my childhood. I don't know where those people are. Because I was always, you know, leaving. But it was that experience of moving all the time and constantly relocating and having to assimilate into a new classroom or a new city so quickly that led me to photography because I asked my dad for a camera because I wanted to record my environment. And by the time I got comfortable and settled into my environment, I was leaving, and I had no record of it. Well, I mean, I had a record, but it was from my parent's perspective, not from mine. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And so you know, I remember getting a camera in fifth grade so that I could document my life so that I could remember it. And I also remember about that same time that I shifted my personality. I was a very shy child. And I intentionally made a conscious decision not to be so shy so that I could make more friends or make them more quickly and develop those relationships because normally it would have taken me a year to feel comfortable and then I'd be gone the next year or the following year. And so I remember consciously in fifth grade, you know, asking for this camera and also telling myself that I needed to be more open and more personable and be more of an extrovert instead of an introvert. It's not to say that I don't find myself shy in certain situations until I get comfortable, but I'm probably more extroverted than introverted now than I was as a child. Skipper: Yeah, it's an interesting adaptation in and I don't know if I'm going to leave this piece in, but we are re-recording our conversation, which we recorded a few weeks ago before you were gonna open your show. However, we had some technical difficulties, unbeknownst to me until I listened back to the recording. So we're recording again, and we're actually recording on a late Sunday night, your time Texas, what's interesting is that the first time we talked, I don't remember hearing any way about you getting a camera in fifth grade. The background that I remember from our previous conversation, and this is in your website, bio, and some other things is around how you started studying astronomy, and then began. So start me in fifth grade when you first get that camera, and then track forward to making that decision in college to major in astronomy, and then how that ultimately manifested in you becoming a photographer. Sarah: It sounds so crazy. That sounds really crazy. Well, because my grandfather and father were these military pilots, it felt expected that I would join the military. And I didn't know if I wanted to join the military. If I did, would I be a pilot, or would I do some other role? But the other thing that I had grown up with was living in Florida, I lived not far from Cape Canaveral. And I was lucky enough to be able to watch shuttle launches from the neighborhood cul de sac. And, granted, they were in the distance, but I could still see them. And it was beautiful. And I hope my children get to experience that someday, although they've watched the Mars rover land on the television, or actually on the computer, but not in person. So that was really influential and very special to me. And I think my grandfather and my father, you know, grew up with a love of space. And that was instilled in me and I remember in high school having space posters on the back of my bedroom door, I did not have you know, music posters and whatever was, you know, whoever, I don't even remember the band going on at that time. But I had to face posters, right? I was that kid, I was the nerd -- the jock and the nerd rolled into one somehow because, you know, playing soccer on two different teams, the high school team on the club team. And then and then there's like science nerd. But, you know, I was taking the biology classes and the physics and looking to pursue a degree in science, physics, specifically astronomy track driven, I wanted to work for NASA. I'd still work for NASA if they want to call me. A girlfriend of mine has been an artist in residence for them recently. And yeah, maybe that's my in. Yeah. Skipper: But I'd still work for NASA. Sarah: Nice. Skipper: But yeah, I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. Do you get a flight patch for that? Sarah: I don't know I should ask her. Yeah. But yeah, she's been doing something on moon rocks. Erika Blumenfeld. And yeah, I'm kind of jealous of her. But anyway, I love you, Erika. And, you know, all through high school was like, okay, am I gonna do military? Am I gonna do astronomy, science, something NASA-related? I apply for college. You know, I'm top 10% of my class, I think I was like, number seven, was able to get some scholarships, as I'm half Cuban, and was going to go to school for astronomy in the northeast. But unfortunately, my blue-collar family couldn't afford Vasser even though I got a soccer scholarship to go study astronomy. But anyway, I ended up going to UT, which also has an amazing astronomy program. And my first year at UT was on track to be an astronomy major, and somewhere along the line in that first year, as much as I enjoyed it, I wasn't sure that it would yield the position that I wanted. I didn't know, at 19. You know, if I'd gone to school in my 30s, I could have been like, Oh, yeah, I can do this. I can work for NASA. But at 19, it seems so daunting. And I don't know if I made the right decision, maybe I made the right decision. But I started to consider, would I be good enough to work for NASA. And if I wasn't good enough, which was a high probability, because they only take so many people. Where would I end up and would I be happy? Skipper: Right, right. Sarah: So these were all questions I was having at 19. Skipper: Those are big questions for a 19-year-old. Sarah: Yeah, just thinking about -- Skipper: Or big questions for a 29 and a 39-year-old, yeah. Sarah: But you know, I've often thought about you know, had I gone to school later. If I'd taken a year off or two years off and traveled the world, would I have made a different decision at that moment and it's not that I regret the decision to switch gears, but I think a lot of it was based on age. And I was so young trying to make these difficult decisions in a very difficult track and major at UT -- and UT is the University of Texas at Austin. And so after my freshman year, I switched gears. And the only other thing that I had been interested in, besides science and space was photography. And I had never taken a photography class, I did not do yearbook or newspaper or anything like that, like most people had, if they were interested in that career path. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And I happened to meet with the head of the communications department at UT and was welcomed with open arms, Rick Williams, he was a fantastic mentor to me, and, you know, found a home and found a voice and found that I could take all that curiosity and all that drive and that passion for not only science but for the world around me and funnel it through a camera. Skipper: That's -- thank you for walking us through that. And I think it's still edited in that notion that you said was like, Doesn't it sound crazy, just a couple of steps. But I think when people start breaking down certain parts of their life, and you hear the top level, here are the three, four steps. But then when you start to hear what you, for instance, went through to make those decisions. And like you said, at 19, you may have made another decision if you were able to go back and sort of like take another timeline. But I think it absolutely makes sense. Sarah: Yeah. Skipper: So you graduated, did you graduate with a degree in astronomy? Or did you end up with a photography degree? Sarah: A photography degree, a Bachelor of Journalism with a concentration in photography. Skipper: So then what happens next as a photographer? Sarah: Well, at UT, I was lucky enough to work for The Daily Texan. And I did every job, just -- Skipper: Which is the school newspaper. Sarah: The school newspaper, fantastic school newspaper, and did every job possible from obviously, being a photographer to a photo editor to a layout designer, really enjoyed that experience wouldn't trade that for anything. And then I was also interning for a company called Citysearch while I was in my last year of undergrad, and I can't recommend interning more to anybody -- it's such a great way to get your feet wet. And to really know if you want to pursue that career or pursue that particular business, you know, whatever it might be. And I was offered a job, straight out of college to open Citysearch in Houston. So I ran the photo department in Houston at 21. And at 22, I was offered to run the New York office. Skipper: Cool. Sarah: And was moved to New York by Citysearch and really was ecstatic about that opportunity. And it's what landed me in New York. And then I transitioned from city search -- there were some changes in the company. And I wanted to be part of something that was more journalistically driven and more hard news, instead of more editorial at that point, and luckily, time, the website had an opening. And I applied and I think went through three interviews and Rick Stengel was the editor of the website, and then left Time, and then came back to run the magazine. So he was my former boss, but had a fantastic time working there and really loved it and learned so much about journalism, photography, stories, and reporting. And yeah, it was one of the best jobs I've ever had. I really, really enjoyed it. And you know, that was 22 to 24. Skipper: So you're working at Time magazine in their digital department, as well as their print manifestation? Sarah: So we had conversations and meetings with the print and sometimes there was overlap. Sometimes I would reach out to a photographer that was doing something for the magazine, and we would share it online. And sometimes we had online-only content. So it was kind of both. Or sometimes I was just picking up stories from the wire as well, that would run also in the magazine. And occasionally we would get to assign our own stories for the website, which was also really nice. So it was kind of a case by case or week by week depending on what we would be doing. And then occasionally I also shot for them. Because I happened to be one of the photo editors who could shoot or one of the people on staff for the website that was also a photographer. Skipper: Got it. Sarah: So yeah, I ended up being laid off once Time and AOL merged when they merged -- years ago, so long ago. And I ended up getting an amazing severance package and went backpacking through Europe for four months by myself, which was also an amazing experience. Yeah. And then I came back to freelance for them. And then I ended up working at Time, People, and Entertainment Weekly because I was already embedded in the system. And I knew how all the backend worked. So I could work prep, you know, very easily at any of the publications that were under the Time Inc. label. Skipper: And then you go and get your MFA, right? Sarah: During that time, as much as I loved photo editing and meeting photographers, I really missed being a photographer, because when I started working for Citysearch, yes, I was shooting but I was more managing other photographers. I was a photo director. And then at the time, I was a photo editor and occasionally shooting and really missed being in the field, so to speak. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: So I started assisting two editorial photographers in New York, one that was primarily studio-based, and one that was location-based. And they both encouraged me to work on a project, my own project, that then I could shop around to other magazines. So I did this project called sorority rush, which I documented the sorority rush at the University of Texas for two years in a row, and I focused on the Delta Gamma sorority, that project is on my website, but I'm not really doing editorial work anymore, but if people want to see it, I can share it. But it is still syndicated through Redux Pictures in New York. And so it's been run in magazines all over the world. And that's been fun. That's been interesting to see that project, be both an editorial project, but also be featured and galleries as well. So it was like this first project that sort of had legs in both worlds. And then, after assisting for a couple of years, I realized that I wanted to go back to school. And I was already living in New York and had a plethora of options to choose from. I just had to get in. Skipper: Yeah. Simple. Sarah: You know, photojournalism photographer trying to apply to art school. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, let's just switch gears. And I had contemplated getting a master's in photojournalism, but decided that you know, I'd already worked at Time Magazine, what else could I do? Where else can I go? I mean, maybe, you know, the Washington Post, or the New York Times or something like that -- which are all great options, or the New Yorker, I would have been happy at any of those places. But I was interested in the other side of photography, the side of photography that I didn't know, that was the fine art side. And what did it mean to be a fine art photographer? And what did it mean to exhibit in galleries? And I had known and met and worked with James Nachtwey at Time magazine, and he was a photojournalist that exhibited in galleries. And so there were a couple of photographers that were coming from the photojournalism world and crossing over into the fine art world. And so I had some idea of what that world looked like, but it was still from a journalism perspective and through a journalistic lens. But what did it mean to have a conceptual eye? And to create a project that maybe wasn't based in reality? Or loosely based in reality? And how did that manifest? And what did that look like? And how was the message relayed without captions and a headline, and, you know, all these things that I learned to do -- know, who, what, when, where, and why. Right, totally embedded in me. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And, you know, not cropping an image, you know, all these things that, you know, are very rigid in photojournalism, which are there for a reason. But what did it look like when you remove those structures, those parameters, what, what could photography be? And I was in the best city to sort of look at that and apply to all the schools and was waitlisted at Parsons, and eventually got in, luckily. And I was at Parsons from 2004 to 2006. Skipper: I want to unpack that a little bit because some of our listeners might not really understand the difference between an editorial photographer and someone who has work that might be displayed in an art gallery, can you give me a little bit more of a distinction between what an editorial photographer does versus what a fine arts or more of a conceptual photographer does? Sarah: Well, I'm going to confuse everybody now because I really think that there are at least three or four options. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: Like editorial could mean fashion. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: So for thinking like any Liebowitz staged fashion, editorial can mean as I mentioned, James Nachtwey, so James could shoot something for Time or Newsweek -- so that could also be editorial. Then the photographer As I was working for, we're also considered editorial. But they were staged so journalism -- Skipper: Would you give me an example of what kinds of work they did? Sarah: So Andrew Hetherington is an Irish photographer who is based in New York that's now based in Atlanta. And we would do portraits of musicians. We would do portraits of people for Esquire, Men's Health. Often someone of notoriety and author, someone famous, do you know doing some sort of mainly portrait photography, I remember I got to go -- oh, I can't remember the congressman's name but I got to meet -- Richard Gere and Bono at the same party with this photographer, and he was photographing Bono and the congressman, and I was walking around holding the light as he's photographing. So in some ways, they were staged, but these were real events are real people. And he was documenting them. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: But adding light and at you know, asking them to pose and things like this. So that's, you know, that's also editorial. If he had gone to just document the party. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And not asked anybody to pose that would be more journalism. Journalistic. Skipper: Interesting. Okay, okay. Sarah: And then, so yeah, fashion can be editorial, what Andrew was doing these, you know, staged portraits could be editorial. And then Aaron Goodman, who's still based in New York. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: He is a photographer and photo Illustrator. So we were doing Time covers and ESPN back pages. And so a lot of times, it was all shot in the studio. And sometimes, or sorry, not sometimes, most of the time, he was adding some kind of photographic illustration on top of the original image. So putting people in a wheat field or putting someone who's actually on a motorcycle, but the motorcycle is spinning and fire shooting out of it, or, you know, adding some kind of surreal aspect to the original photograph, which was shot in the studio. If it appeared on a Time cover, it would say photo illustration, right? It wouldn't say photo by with a photo illustration by ESPN, it was always something crazy with some athlete or either the real athlete or superimpose their head on a body, you know, things like that. But they were always really fun and kind of out of this world. But that was also editorial. Skipper: Yeah. There's a lot more in editorial than I thought. Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, I mean you just pick up any magazine, and that is editorial. And what's in the newspaper is journalism. And sometimes they crossover, especially if it's a news reporting publication. Skipper: Sure. Sarah: So just depends on the publication. And then you've got the world of fine art, which can be in a magazine because I've had my work in a magazine. But most Fine Art photographers are producing work to be exhibited in a gallery, maybe produced in a book, sold to a client, or collected by a museum. And it's not to say that the worlds don't commingle and cross-pollinate, they do all the time, just like in the art world, everything is every you know, yes, you may be a photographer, but yes, you do performance and video, or maybe you were sculptor, but now you do fiber. I mean, everyone cross-pollinating. And that's just, you know, I think that's the way it is, in any career, any medium or anything that you might be doing out there. But, you know, I think you start off in one department or one venue, and you sort of morph into others. And so, you know, I started in journalism, then I went to publications and editorial working with these photographers, and then I went to fine art, and then they've all kind of collapsed and folded into one another. I don't really show him in newspapers anymore for obvious reasons. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Unless it's a review. Skipper: Right. So I love that, that we just sort of broke everything down. And we brought at least up to speed it a little bit in terms of where you are, that everything is this sounds like a melange of the work that you're doing. That's part self-expression, part, documenting part, data science and, you know, breaking apart, what are, you know, the component parts of the materials and ingredients that you have utilized within the work that you've done, telling stories. So there's a lot more that comes to light. Do you want to talk about either the most recent project you've done or pluck out one of the other projects to use it as an illustrative point? Sarah: So you mentioned data science and data visualization and for a long time, looking back at the projects that I've done, I'm very aware of my journalism training and how it's informed work. And as a photographer, even when I left journalism, I was still collecting information. I was visually comparing and contrasting things in hospitals or places, and maybe not even intentionally doing it was just subconsciously happening. And so when I made an effort to collect data, and specifically working with Memorial Hermann here in Houston, the Life Flight project, which is their red helicopter system, which is the first medical helivac in Texas, it was the first one in Texas and it's the busiest helipad in the country. Skipper: Wow. Sarah: And Memorial Hermann has five bases and 19 choppers. Skipper: Wow. Sarah: Yeah, they're not all in operation at the same time, but that's how many they have in the fleet. Skipper: And that's just for the city of Houston? Sarah: That's just for the city of Houston. Skipper: Wow. Sarah: So, I mean, traffic is so I mean, like any city like LA, New York, Chicago -- traffic is bad. And I feel very fortunate that should I need one, they exist. And living in San Antonio, which I lived in before coming back to Houston, I lived in between the Life Flight -- it's not called Life Flight there, it's called AirLIFE -- from downtown San Antonio to the Med Center, I lived in the track or the path of it. I also live near a military base. So I could hear the military planes and the medical helicopters at the same time in the air, which was very interesting to me. And when I moved to Houston, I realized how many more helicopters they had. And I was like, What is going on? Who are these helicopters? What's the story here? (Dr.) "Red" Duke started Life Flight here in Houston -- and you can look up him, but there are movies and specials on him at Memorial Hermann with Life Flight. And there have been books and shows and all kinds of things about Red Duke. But I was very interested in learning not only more about the helicopters and the history but also tracking their movements. And I was able after a year of persistent phone calls and emails and visits to get flight data for one month. I had wanted flight data for a year. But I got it for a month and was able to with the support of the Houston Arts Alliance received a large financial grant to create a project with this flight log. And I created these kinetic kites that loosely reference helicopters and have the flight paths from the point of origin literally where the helicopter took off, which base where they picked up the patient, and where they dropped off the patient. And then the next iteration of that project, I created other kinetic sculptures, which moved and either blinked LED lights or had pressurized pumps. And I was making this before COVID but it came out right during COVID. They looked like ventilators making work based on patient vitals collected onboard Life Light. So not only did I have these patterns, but I also had patient vitals -- heart rate, breath rate, and pulse. And so I was making images, textiles, and kinetic sculptures all based on data. So I was given you know, a month of flight logs and made a series of works. And then I was given 11 patients' worth of data and made 11 works based on those people. And originally there was no photography in this project whatsoever. I stripped all color out of the project. All my projects prior to this have been very photography or video-based, had been very saturated in color, reds, purples, pinks, things like that, and much more visceral and I knew that I wanted to challenge myself to make a shift in my career, in the way that I was working, and what the work looked like. And so I had stripped also photography out for the first time I exhibited this work -- and I remember at the opening paper like is this you? There's no photography, and I was like, yeah, great photography. But I also missed the photography. But I had to figure out how do I talk about something that's so visceral, and not just photograph a red helicopter or not photograph a patient? What does that look like? Because as a documentary photographer, or journalistic photographer, that's what you would do. But how do I not do that? And still tell a story and still honor the people that are in flight -- both the pilot and nurse and tech and also the patient in their care? How do I tell this profound story documenting it? And so I finally figured out a way which was I did these self-portraits with textiles that were made based on patient data. And I wore them. And so I incorporated the patient experience, but I was the body. Skipper: Got it. And this is your piece called Point of Origin. You said the name -- Sarah: The whole project is called Point of Origin. And those specific self-portraits are recorded breath and recorded beats. Skipper: That's really interesting. When I went into it on your website, and you've written up a great blurb, but just having you walk through it and detail that piece of when people showed up, and they were looking at the exhibit, and their question to you was, Where's the flower? Is this you know, am I in the right place? And you're like, Well, yeah, it is me. Isn't it great? I didn't use photography. How did that? How did that feel? Did that feel hard for you to not flex that muscle that you had? Sarah: Yeah, it was extremely challenging. I mean, I've been making images for I don't know what it was, at that point, 15 years. Long time. And I've been making projects within a medical vein for many years. And it had been primarily photography-based. So what happens when you strip all that away? And can you still be successful as an artist, so it was almost, you know, like I said, before, a challenge or a test to myself, can I be an artist that doesn't use photography, part of me just needed a break, I have been doing two-dimensional work for so long. It felt repetitive to me. And I didn't want to be repetitive anymore or feel repetitive or boring. And so for me, I really needed to take a break from that and work in other mediums and figure out how do I take an idea, distill it down, and communicate it to an audience that may have no idea what they're looking at? Have no reference point, or understanding of Life Flight. You know, or have any interest in it. And you know, for me, I was trying to combine that military upbringing, because these medical helicopters come from the Vietnam era. And actually, most of the Life Flight pilots are former military. So there's that interesting side note, they go into really rigorous training to be a Life Flight pilot. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: But then also my interest in them in the medical so this project Point of Origin combined those two interests for me into one, which was really exciting. And then on top of it, yeah. How do I do this project without photography, and it exhibited for the first time in 2019, in Houston. And then the second time It opened in March of 2020. Right before -- literally the week -- the pandemic shut down Texas. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Which was awesome. And two weeks before it opened, I got sick and was in bed from the stress of preparing this 20 piece solo show, the largest solo show I've ever had. And I had these, those textiles that I did the self-portraits -- it's one textile, I had it sitting next to my bed, and I was like, Hmm, I wonder what happens if I wear this thing? What else can I do? I'm in bed. And I set up the camera and there were the images and they were printed and framed and delivered to the gallery the day it opened. But you know, I wasn't going to add photography just because I could, right? It had to be the right piece. And it did not come until two weeks before the opening. Yeah, but it's there now. So and I'm really happy. Skipper: That's interesting that you've found it also serendipitously, yeah. You weren't planning to find it, and yet it kind of found you. Sarah: Yeah, I was lying there in bed. I was trying to create some kind of sculpture with this textile that we've made based on a patient pattern, these vitals, and we'd fed it through this program called touch designer and it made this like circular pattern, you could feed in the numbers and play with it, it would spit out different patterns. And I was like, Oh, I really like this radial pattern. I want to make that into a sculpture. I found someone to help me do this. And we bleached this stainless steel textile, so bleached out the cotton or linen and it left this delicate stainless steel structure. So what you're looking at is technically a textile that's been half bleached. And so you see the black ring or the black edging and then the rest is where it's been bleached. And yeah, I was trying to find some kind of structure to hold it properly. couldn't figure out what I wanted and kept playing with it and the person who helped me make it. I was like, just leave it with me and I'll try and figure it out. So I put it next to my bed so that I could look at it every day. And then I got sick. And then had my camera in my room was like, Okay, and then literally the background of those images, I have an organic mattress and it had two parts. And so I like I didn't have a white backdrop. So I lifted up one part. And I'm like, literally sandwiched in between the mattress with this huge window in my room and a camera and this thing on my face and my chest. And there you go. Skipper: Wow. Sarah: I know people are like, is this in a studio? And I'm like, no, it's in my bedroom. available light. This is what you can do. Because I was trained as a photojournalist, I can shoot in available light. Skipper: That's right. So take us to your most recent work, your show opened, and as Point of Origin, this show was also very complicated. Can you give us a summary of what the show was about? Sarah: It started off as a response to somebody else's work. A really great painter, Deborah Brown, based in New York City, and it evolved into an exploration into my Cuban heritage. So I was asked to create a performance in response to Deborah's work. But then I was asked to create a solo show, in addition to the performance on a month and a half timeline. Which anyone listening -- (laughs). Skipper: Easy. Sarah: Sure, yeah. Skipper: Yeah, not just one, but two. Sarah: Yeah. And I like challenges. And I like pushing myself. And so I accepted. And, you know, could I have made something that was aesthetically beautiful in a month and a half? Of course, sure. But I wanted to make something that was meaningful to me. And something that comes from me, my life, and my story. And I was able to harness or really quickly figure out that I wanted to do something about my grandmother. Okay. My abuela, who came from Cuba, and her name was Jorgelina and my daughter is named after her -- her name is Georgina, so that's the English version. And I had in graduate school, shortly after her death, done a self-portrait outside her grave where I was looking at her grave, and my middle name is Antonia. So it's Jorgelina, my mom is Babita Ramona, I'm Sarah Antonia, and my daughter's Georgina. Okay, cool. So I named that portrait Finding Antonia, trying to find this link to my Cuban heritage standing outside my grandmother's grave. And I knew that most people have never seen this image. And I was 25 or 26 at the time. And when I had this opportunity from the gallery, I knew that I wanted to revisit her grave and I wanted to do a performance. And I don't know how but I guess I tapped into the right thing at the right time and asked the universe, the universe responded, and said you need to go wash your grandmother's grave. Like it really said -- it didn't say that to me. But that's when I felt this impulse. And it was Easter weekend. And yes, I was raised Catholic and all the symbolism is there -- I'm Buddhist or practically becoming Buddhist now. But anyway, that's a side note. And so yeah, on Easter weekend, I go down to Corpus (Christi) -- more Catholic symbolism there -- I drive in the morning, I get in, and about 11, I unpack the car, I set up a camera. And I take a little bucket of water with some white cloth napkins and I proceed to wash my grandmother's grave. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: To honor her and to say thank you and to show care and reflect on her life. So the entire time I'm washing not only the wall, the granite wall that she's in, but also the cement in front of her grave. Sort of preparing the site in a way. And when I was looking or asked to respond to this other artists' work, I was thinking a lot about performance art and performance artists and working with the land and working with the body. And you know, what was it in my life that I could tap into? And I was specifically looking at Ana Mendieta and the performances that she did and was there something I wanted to do in the dirt? And I think that's kind of what led me to think about the dirt and even though my grandmother's not buried in the ground, she's in a wall. It's still led me to her grave and the idea of the washing and it being invisible labor and invisible care that you only know I did it because I recorded it otherwise, I would just be telling you about it. Skipper: Sure. Sarah: And I hadn't been to her grave in years, and I don't go to Corpus often my father still lives there, but I don't visit it. I don't visit the grave often. And so it was very special for me to go back. And, you know, I'm sitting there washing. I basically did it in one take, it was six minutes long. And my knees really hurt when I got done. And I pulled up the dress that I had on and I had marks all over my legs. And I was like, Huh, that would make a good picture. Because, you know -- Skipper: The photojournalist. Sarah: The photojournalist document in the action, who also does self-portraiture, and I was like, Okay, I got this. Now, I'm in the grave, in the cemetery, hoping that no one stops me. Okay, I've done my performance. I watched it really quickly. I thought, Okay, that's good. Moving on. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And so then I documented my legs. And then I was like, Hmm, wonder what happens if I stand in this bucket? And then I did another picture, and the wind picked up and it like, blew my dress like a sail. And then I ended up calling that picture Finding Antonia. So that's the one that you'll see. You won't see the red dress version from when I was 26, you'll see the white dress version from when I'm 43. But I was thinking about, Yes, the washing. And was this to honor her. But then this portrait of my legs, and the portrait of me standing in the bucket, I was really contemplating or trying to embody what it must have been like for her to come from Cuba to America. And she actually first came over on a plane with my mother, and then was abandoned by my grandfather in Chicago. And so my grandmother, as a single mother ends up working in Chicago for a while, saves enough money, goes back to Key West, eventually goes back to Cuba, then comes back to the United States back to Key West and back and forth. And then in the 80s, she also went to Cuba and rescued family members during the Mariel boatlift. And so for me, this performance at the grave was not only, like I said, to honor her and to reflect on her life, but also to just take time to think about how hard that must have been to travel back and forth, in you know, in the 50s and early 60s, as a single woman with a child. And how scary that must have been and how challenging that must have been, but also how brave that she was. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And then to go back to this country, you've left to rescue your family. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: You know, she didn't have to do that. She chose to do that. Skipper: Yeah, there's a lot there. Sarah: Most of the work is coming from this, you know, the performance at the grave, which I videotaped or shot myself. And then these two images of myself. And then I also photographed the napkins or towels in the water after I washed because the water got dirty. And I also created the ceramic vessel plate-bowl things that are very simple in design. I've never made anything in clay, but I had a friend who helped me and rolled out the clay in very uneven patterns. (Laughs) And that's okay. And I impressed into them the napkins. So the folding and the texture is embedded into these napkins, into these vessels. And those were fired. My friend fired him for me -- so that exists. And then the live performance could have been a remake of the grave washing but I wanted to do something different because you know, that's who I am. Why not just add one more challenge to myself on a very escalated timeline? Skipper: So the grave piece was split it up into two sections, right? One's called water and one's called rope. Sarah: Yes. So El Recuerdo -- which means the memory. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: The grave is the water. The self-portrait, one is called finding Antonia and one is called Bearing. And then the ceramic pieces are called Inherited Memories. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: Because they're embedded with these textures. And El Recuerdo: Rope is the live performance that I did and originally it was also going to have some kind of water element to it. I was gonna have water poured on me or dirt poured on me. I knew I wanted to be suspended from the ceiling because the gallery had this amazing -- it's this old building that's been redone but had this amazing eyebeam in it. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: And I thought oh, how wonderful is that? And I've never been suspended in an art gallery space before. I was thinking about -- Skipper: Had you been suspended before, at all? Sarah: Yeah, I had been suspended before but only very limited and you know, kind of in a smaller setting and -- definitely not for a live performance or an art piece or anything like that. And so I had some knowledge, but nothing to where I have now. And again, that was all fast-tracked as well. There's so much -- I want to do the piece again, but there's a huge learning curve. And now I need to know even more, because I want to do it again. And I want to do it even longer, and have more knowledge going into it. And I'll get into that in a second. Thinking about, you know, these paintings and these women traveling, canoes, and these solo travelers, that is what led me to go down this path with my grandmother thinking about her being the solo traveler. But, you know, I was thinking about having some kind of water element to reference the lake or waterway that they were on or the boat. And that just became very challenging logistically -- Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: -- in a short period of time, and trying to bring it into the gallery and not being able to bring it into the gallery until a few days before the opening. And so I ended up taking out the water, which freed me up to bring in more rope and the rope, instead of me just suspending from one point, I had extra rope, which I ended up moving with my body. So as I was swaying in space, I was able to move the rope with me pulling and tugging on it, and I was able to spin and knot the rope or twist the rope. And I could also come up out of suspension and untangle the ropes. And so it was this sort of this dance with the rope and I wanted to be the vessel. And I also wanted to be the sailor or the traveler at the same time. So I was wanting to embody both perspectives. And then during the performance, I basically repeated very simple gestures over and over again. So swinging from one side to the other, rotating and twisting, dragging my feet, extending my arms or my legs as if I was floating or dancing in the air, and I would kind of rotate over as much as I could. But the rope, I wanted to serve both as a support and restriction. So you know, my movements were restricted, because of where the rope was on my body, I didn't have full rotation, I couldn't move completely because of my body, you know, my body weight and how the harnesses were attached to me and supporting me. Skipper: Sure. Sarah: But in that piece, I was thinking about, yes, the boat, the vessel, my grandmother traveling from Cuba to America. Now what that must have been like on each journey, because not every journey would have been the same. And thinking about ties to the past, ties to the present, ties to the future. And then, you know, the meaning of the rope, you know, is the rope freedom? Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Or is it you know, tying me to a history that I no longer want to be part of? Or, you know, that my grandmother wanted to be part of. And it was interesting that during the performance, I spoke to a few people afterward. And I had three rings, so I was suspended from the center ring, and there were these two outer rings with rope hanging from them, that wasn't tied to anything but were just looped through. So it could potentially just fall out. And I liked the fact that I was able to pull on these ropes as if I was on a ship, moving them, and adjusting them. But then when the ropes would get tangled because I was spinning and moving around for half an hour. I would get up and I would start to untangle the ropes, people gave me the feedback that they saw that as taking the Cuban and American history and sort of separating those identities, which I thought was kind of interesting that you know, people read other things into it based on my gestures with the rope. And I've never worked with rope before in my entire life. So I'm really excited to kind of keep exploring like, Okay, this was the first time I did this performance. I did it in the space on Friday. And then it was live on Saturday, which was crazy as well. I would have liked to have been practicing for an entire week in this space. So when it's at MoMA, I'll be practicing for a week, maybe two, maybe two weeks, with some breaks in between. But yeah, I want to add more elements, I want to make it even longer, I want to record -- Skipper: How long was it? Sarah: It was actually 30 minutes. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: So maybe it's not longer, but just maybe there's more variation. Maybe there's more of a -- there was a loose sequence, but it was more just improv of specific motions or gestures so maybe there's more of a sequence, I don't know. But something I do want to do is definitely change, sort of the cadence or the rhythm of the piece so it goes up down more. And then I want to record someone humming, or singing Cuban songs or Cuban hymns. And then that way, I can also know what time mark I'm at in the performance. So these are all things that you know -- Skipper: Almost choreography. Sarah: Yeah. So like a loose choreography but not choreography because it's not a dance. And it's not theater, it is live performance so it can be messed up. It's not supposed to be perfect. And, you know, something that came about was, Friday's performance or rehearsal went spectacular, and it was recorded, and it was great. I was really happy with it. And Saturday, we shifted a few things. And it wasn't the same for me. And not that anybody else knew this. But I knew it. And I realized how important it is for me to have a very specific feeling during the performance as the artist so that I can express or share with the audience an authentic emotion. And so there were certain things that were not happening for me on Saturday during the live piece. And I wasn't gonna fake it. So, I was frustrated. And the audience saw that I was frustrated, they didn't see the other emotions that I wanted them to see, like exhaustion and pain. I was tied a little bit differently. And so I wasn't quite so restricted. I wasn't so uncomfortable as I was on Friday. And in this, it's not that it didn't go well, it just went differently. But how important it is for me, in recent performances that I've done -- such as 60 Pounds of Pressure, and Will You Hug Me Forever -- how important it is that I as the performer have a very visceral response to the performance so that you as the audience see what's happening to me, you see me crying, you see me struggling, you see me sweating, you see me exhausted, those are all real emotions, that's where I am in real-time. And it's not anything faked or acted or anything like that. And so I don't know when I'll get to do this piece again. But I'm looking forward to developing it more, and just seeing where it goes from here. Because you know, it was created three weeks ago. And then I had to perform it. Skipper: Right. Created, manifested, and then -- Sarah: And then, Go! Skipper: That's right. Sarah: Yeah, I used to be a dancer and I want to take more dance classes. And I had started Pilates to get more in shape and stretched out. And, you know, I relied very heavily on these rigors, these shibari rigors that I know, and now I know that I need to learn how to tie some on my own. Because in the performance, I was too low to the ground. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: And I kept hitting my feet and had I known how to tie myself or adjust the tie. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: I could have fixed it on myself -- which I also think is kind of interesting, because like on a ship, or on a boat, you're constantly like pivoting and navigating what's happening, you're adjusting to the situation or the environment or the weather, or whatever is happening. And I kind of like the idea that, Oh, I could have stopped and fixed it in future performances, I could adjust it to be more intense or less intense, or I can switch things up, if I have that knowledge. And so that's something else that I need to look into is getting classes so that I can do that in the future is adjust the ropes myself. Skipper: Yeah. And then the notion of doing any sort of suspension work -- and this is not work that I've ever done, I know people who have, but that's also not something to be taken lightly as well. Right? Sarah: Right. Skipper: That takes a certain amount of familiarity and training and you know how to balance your body because when you're, it's one thing to be comfortable in your body, you know, whether it's through, like you said, doing Pilates or dance classes or yoga or other balancing work, but then it's another thing altogether to perform and, and be suspended from the ceiling via rope. Sarah: Yeah, I don't think I'll ever be at the level to do the ties from the ceiling. I have a great friend who was doing that for me, and she's trained, taking classes, and now is an instructor. So this is her expertise. But she did teach me enough to be able to make sure I clamped in, right. So if you're a climber, similar things like carabiners, and making sure the carabiners were this way versus that way, and things like that. But there are people who self-suspend or self-tie and I don't know that I'll be at that level. I mean, maybe, who knows maybe my interest will go that far and extend beyond what I need to know. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: But yes, it's an entire process. You have to be very careful. The original on Friday when we first set it up, I had wanted it to just be jute rope everywhere over the eyebeam and including over the eyebeam. And we were concerned that the eyebeam may be sharp and could snap the rope. And so I started to swing and I could hear it creaking. And I stopped. And then they went up on a ladder. And they're like it's starting to fray the rope. And so we had to put in a climbing rope, a climbing sling over the eyebeam and then attach the swivel, there was a swivel to a carabiner to rope and things like that. So it didn't have the aesthetic look I wanted, but it was more safe. Yeah, I would have liked it just have been rope. But I could hear it creaking, it made a really nice sound. But I thought I'm gonna land on the floor. Skipper: It would not have lasted for 30 minutes. Sarah: Yeah, no definitely wouldn't have lasted 30 minutes even though it was only like a foot off the ground or two feet off the ground, I still don't want to smash my head on a concrete floor. Skipper: Totally. So two things I want to pull out of just the two works that we've really dived into -- and you've mentioned some of your other ones. And they're all available on your website. But this idea of in your work, you're very collaborative in the way that you approach it, right? You talked about working with someone who has worked with ceramics, someone who has worked with rope, someone who can 3d print something for you. So it's not as though you're doing all of this work yourself, even if a lot of concepting and inspiration comes from you. There's a lot of collaboration. But then there's also a lot of, I would say, cross-functional work that you're doing as well, because you're not functioning anymore strictly as a photographer, right? That's not -- even though there are parts of your work that still come through the lens of a camera, you're delving into all of these other areas as well. So I wonder in thinking about your work, is this a direction that you're going to continue moving in? Sarah: I would say since 2012, when I had my first child -- Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: -- I have started to collaborate more and more with artists. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: Because my training is in photography only -- both undergraduate and graduate. It's not to say that I can't learn things, but my wheelhouse is smaller than I'd like, my eyes are wider than what I can do. And also opportunities present themselves faster than I can learn the technology. Skipper: Ah. Sarah: For example, the installation I did at the Children's Museum last year, which was this huge 18 foot led interactive light installation. Skipper: Okay. Sarah: That was two months. That's all I was given. Skipper: Wow. Sarah: Two months to create it, prototype it, install it, test it, and then it was go time. So I'm not going to learn that programming in a year. Skipper: Right. Sarah: Maybe two years, maybe three years, who's to say? So I had to hire an expert who that is, you know, what they do day in and day out. Whether it's someone firing ceramics for me, like I said, I did roll out the clay, and you can tell because it's not properly shaped but like I said, it's okay. You know, or working with a programmer or working with the textile artists to help me leave material because I don't own a loom. I've never worked on a loom. Again, not an easy thing to learn overnight, right? So I'm fortunate that I keep having these opportunities to make work. But if I want to make the work, I have to find people to help me. And there are artists who, and I think this applies to lots of disciplines or professions, are people that are purists, and they only -- if they can't make the work themselves, it won't exist. And they'll figure out something else that they can do that is in their wheelhouse. Versus I want to make the work that best suits the idea. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Whatever the material is, whatever the medium is, I don't foresee myself going into painting, unless I'm using my body in some way. You know, I'm interested in a lot of materials and mediums. And if that's what best suits the idea, then I'm going to find somebody to help me. And so yes, in some ways, it's almost like a photo editor or an art director. It's like, Okay, I want it to look like this. And I want it to be this material. Can you help me make it? Yeah. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: So I see myself continuing in that way just because of the nature of the types of projects that I'm doing. And then continuing -- Yes, to use photography, but not necessarily always in the traditional sense. It's photography, sometimes it's a photograph, and sometimes it's a document of a performance. And they both have a place and I love them equally. But yeah, most recently, the pieces that I've been doing have been performances that have been documented through photography, and this during the pandemic, I read this really great journal by Kathy Odell called "Contract with the Skin". Skipper: Hmm. Sarah: And it's beautiful. And it talks about performance artists from the 70s. And I think the subtitle is Masochism and Performance Arts in '70s. I found myself in that book, I think. I was like, Oh, that's who I am. That's what I'm doing. Okay. I understand myself now. But it talks in there a lot about the photograph as the record of the hear and now and then and there, and the audience's relationship to the performer and the audience's relationship to the image or the artifact of the performance. And how certain performances only exist now as a photograph. Not even a video -- some exist as both, depending on if the artist is gone or no longer performing, or you know, what have you. But I think that that's really interesting, how photography is serving that purpose. It's bridging the gap, or is it giving you a completely different perspective of an event? Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: So I'm interested in exploring where that goes, as well. Skipper: One of the things that I wanted to pull out of something that you'd said previously is the idea of as an artist, as a creative person in the world, you also wear the hat of sometimes being a grant writer. And so you're having to go out and look for funding, what are things that you can do in order to continue to make the work at a high enough level that it satisfies the thing that you're trying to make, but then also as compelling for other people to come, see, and experience. And I think one of the things Sarah in our previous conversations is this idea of how much being an artist is also sometimes being an independent business owner in a way when you have to go and you have to research something, when you have to hire the programmer for the project that you mentioned, The Reading Brain, that's not something that you might be able to get someone to give you a break or something. But that's you're paying someone for their work to do this for you. Same thing with, you know, some of the other people that you've talked about. Can you unpack that a little bit in terms of -- go behind the scenes for the audience and talk a little bit about that administrator hat that you wear for your own work? Sarah: Sure. I had mentioned earlier the Point of Origin project, I received two grants from the Houston Arts Alliance, I think the first one was $10,000. And the second one was $2,500 or $5,000, just for that project. So that required me not only, you know, researching the grant writing the application, and then following up with not only the work, but also the grant report. Skipper: Sure. Sarah: So yes, you have to make the work, you have to document the work. And then you have to, you know, submit where all the expenses went, who you paid, how you paid. Skipper: Mm-hm. Sarah: Things like that. So you know, there definitely is, you know, a beginning, middle, and end to that process. And a lot of the work I make now is grant funded, I can make some projects on my own without funding, for example, like the 60 Pounds of Pressure, that video and those images as well as Will You Hug Me Forever, I shot those at home with what I had during the pandemic, no, you know, no one was leaving, I used lights and backdrop material. With what I had, I had just enough white backdrop material to do these portraits again in my room. And the same white paper I laid on for the bricks is the same white paper I used because I wasn't going to the photo store to get new white paper. You know, a lot of times, like I just received funding for a new project called Labor Pains. Again, through the Houston Arts Alliance, and I have not started on that project yet. But that is to explore homeschooling during the pandemic. And so that project will be performance, photography, installation, sculpture, sound they'll be creating over the next year, they'll also be some community components, including interviews with other mothers, as well as a photographic archive collected from the community. And that is funded and I was waiting for the money before I started the project. And then like The Reading Brain that you mentioned earlier, which was very expensive. I was lucky enough to be awarded an artist in residency at the Newseum in 2020. And they provided funding to make the piece that is the only way that that got done. Otherwise, there would have been no way to make it. I mean, I do some stuff on my own. Like for example, I had an exhibition at the Blaffer museum this year. With some of the projects I mentioned earlier, I still had to produce it. Get it printed, get it framed, things like that, that costs several $1,000. You know, and then this show that I just opened a week and a half ago, I still had to produce it and pay for it right? There was no funding for that. So that, you know, that show, I tried to make as cheaply as possible. So I did a lot -- if I can barter with somebody, I will barter, like I bartered Pilates classes, I bartered the firing of my clay pieces, I printed one of the photographs at school, I shot the stuff myself, you know, like if I can do it, and then my friends who did the tying for me, I bartered with them. Because I needed to make it on a budget because there wasn't time to get funding. Skipper: Yeah, it's almost like to put it in another terminology, it's almost like art as a minimum viable product in a way. Because you're just trying to get this stood up and put out into the world in a way where people can react to it, right? And then there will be iteration down the line, like you said. Sarah: I mean, yes, so grants, residencies that pay, and then selling the work. So -- Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: I just recently got representation through Nancy Littlejohn Fine Art, which is really exciting. And that's where the exhibition is [until 26 Jun 2021]. So I'm hoping that with her support in the gallery behind me that I will start moving some of my pieces, get them out of my closet, but what that means is not that's not only livelihood for me, but that means I get to make more work, which is really exciting. So, you know, if you can support an artist, support an artist, -- I'm always happy to trade, I'm happy to barter, and I'm really grateful to sell. Skipper: Nice. So Sarah, we've talked about a lot of stuff. And we're also over time, and I know it's after 10:30 PM for you. So is there something you want to talk about that we haven't gotten into yet? Sarah: What did I say last time? Skipper: I don't remem -- You know, honestly, I don't -- Sarah: It wasn't profound, obviously. Skipper: I think we had an offhanded conversation about how art is hard. Sarah: Oh, yeah. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: Art is hard. Skipper: There you go. Sarah: Done. Skipper: The end. Sarah: Don't become an artist. Skipper: That's actually -- a good -- is that something that -- I find as a parent now I have all sorts of mixed aspirations for my daughter. What if one of your kids comes to you one day and says, You know, I want to be an artist, what is your response to them? Sarah: Well, my daughter, I mean, she says she wants to be a lot of things. But you know, at one point, she said, I want to be a photographer, that's great. Skipper: Yeah. Sarah: You can be lucrative, I just chose the not necessarily the most lucrative path, I was on a lucrative path and then I changed. I would say if they wanted to be an artist, not that I wouldn't encourage it, but I would make sure that they've got a plan B, in case the art track either isn't successful for them and where they want to go, not necessarily, if they don't make money just isn't successful for them. Skipper: Sure. Sarah: That they've got, they've got a backup option, or that they choose a career, which allows them time and space and financing to be an artist, that they also find equally, passionate about whatever -- that might be, they could be, you know, an educator, and still be an artist, there are lots of things that you could do and still be an artist. I have friends here in Houston, who are, you know, working in a lawyer's office or they work someplace part-time as a curator, you know, whatever they do, and they're still an artist on the side. I'm currently only an artist. And that's more having to do with the pandemic, and most of the jobs that I applied for evaporated. And I still, you know, I was teaching and that's, you know, ended, the semester's ended, and I'm not sure if I'll be getting any other classes. So right now, my full-time job is as an artist, and I might be going back to some commercial photography, to fill in the gaps. But, you know, I think it's wise no matter what you want to do, whether it's be an artist or something else, that you've got a plan A and a plan B or two options that can support one another, you know, whatever those are. Some months this might be, you know, one thing might be really great. And then some months or years, you know, the other position or another career might be more fulfilling or more fruitful. So, yeah, I think both of my children are very artistically inclined. I'd like ideally, I'd like to see them funnel that through something else, not just pure art, because being an artist is so grueling. It is absolutely grueling. If anyone tells you otherwise, they're, they're just blowing smoke. I was talking to my mom today I got three rejections this week, huge rejections that I pretty devastated, pretty devastated about -- Skipper: I'm sorry. Sarah: Both residencies had money and grants and things like that. And you have to just, okay. Just keep going and apply for another round and apply for another round. And, you know, like, my job is to look for stuff and apply for things and get rejected day in and day out. Because I don't get rejected from everything, right. It's a numbers game, and the right team or committee or jurors or whatever it is, right, you have to fit in, you have to be what they're looking for. You have to fit in with the other artists, you know, there are so many factors that these things go into. You can't take it personally. I mean, you could always do better. I know that I could always do better. And we could all do better. Skipper: Also, sometimes timing, right? Sarah: Yeah, timing. Skipper: You can apply for the same thing year over year, and then one year landed. And next year, Sarah: I'm going after Guggenheim. Okay, so I mentioned MoMA earlier, I'm also going after Guggenheim this year. Skipper: Nice. Sarah: Yeah, I've never applied to go like I'm finally at that level that I can feel worthy of applying for a Guggenheim. And then you know, I've applied for these other really big grants. And if I were to get them, that would be my salary for the next year or two. And which would be great. But, you know, you've got to have enough self-confidence, enough sensitivity, and be humble, but also a thick enough skin to take the rejection, and to keep plugging in and go, Okay, this idea is really good. Or this idea is shit, next. Or maybe it's really a good idea, but I just didn't write about it well, or, you know, there are so many factors. And one of the rejections I got recently gave me some really great feedback on that application, and which I really appreciated the feedback. And so next time I apply for that grant, I will, you know, change things up. And like I said, you just have to keep picking yourself up and putting yourself out there. And it's not for everyone. Skipper: Yeah. So, Sarah, we're coming to the end of our time that we've scheduled to talk. And so I want to ask some of the wrap-up questions that we ask everyone who comes on the show, is there something that you would tell yourself, like, if you could go back in time and -- Sarah: Be the astronomer. Skipper: If you could go back in time and tell yourself some nugget of knowledge that this is the thing you should do or something you wish you would have learned earlier? What would that be? Sarah: I've been fighting my entire life for people to stop putting me in a box. People try and put me in a box all the time. And this could apply to anyone in any aspect of their life. But there are people close to me in my life that still say to me when you get a real job... Skipper: Oooh. Sarah: Like, this is my job. And that is so hard to hear, oh, you should apply for this, you know, some corporate Not that I haven't, I've had plenty of corporate jobs, but they don't feed my soul. And sure, I've done them because that's what needed to be done. And I was, you know, trying to take care of my children and pay bills and get health insurance, etc, etc. But to be more, I guess, I would go back and tell myself that if you want to call it intuition, or knowing or I don't know, an inner voice to not be so afraid. Skipper: Hmm. Sarah: And yes, people are going to have their opinions and they're going to want what they think is best for you, but to not be afraid to make the harder decision to follow your intuition or your voice. And if it means you don't fit into a box, you don't fit into a box, because quite frankly, they're boring, and who needs more of the same? Skipper: Right. So you mentioned a couple of things, just through our conversation that you mentioned the book about performance artists. But what are two things that you're reading or watching or listening to right now that you're super into? Sarah: Am I watching anything? No. I'm really into meditation right now. So I don't do it every day, like I should. But I'm really inspired by Dr. Joe Dispenza and his meditations and I have friends that have met him and gone to his sessions and retreats, and so I'm really interested in what he's doing and a lot of the podcasts Oh, I guess I'm listening, he's got a bunch of books. One is called "Becoming Supernatural" and one's called "Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself". And you can join him, become a member, download meditations that he does, he's got free meditations online, and then these audiobooks, which I actually listened to, in the bath. So that's like, my special time, you know, like, I'll take a hot bath, and then I'll let them roll. Because they're like 10 hours, the audiobooks, 10-12 hours. So, you know, it takes me a while to get through them, but I enjoy listening to them. And I find that they've been very helpful, talking about letting go of past experiences, trying to manifest a different life for yourself, and that's something that I'm actively pursuing. It's like, Okay, if I want that show at MoMA, how do I get that show MoMA? I have to start visualizing it, and other things in my life and being more financially stable as an artist and being more successful. And you know, now I have gallery representation, which I didn't have two months ago. I can't say it's for everybody but if you've got the time and you want something to listen to in the bath, you know, I highly recommend them, you're not going to be sorry, listened to them so... Skipper: We'll link to them in the show notes. So Sarah, where can people find out more about you? We're going to link to some stuff as we're promoting the show, and then during the week. But where can people find out about you? I have my website, which is www.sarahsudhoff.com. And on Instagram it's @sarahsudhoff. Okay. Well, Sarah, thanks so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. Sarah: Of course. Thanks for having me -- back. Skipper: And thank you for listening to how this works. Please follow or subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show. It would mean so much if you could just tell one other person about it, and why they should listen. You can find how this works online at howthisworks.show -- three words, no dashes. Again. That's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media does its thing. I hope that you learn something from my conversation with Sarah today. Even for as many years as I've known her, for sure I did. We'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: Even though there are parts of your work that still come through the lens of a camera, you're delving into all of these other areas as well. Sarah: (Whispering) What's the question? Just to talk about that? Skipper: Yeah, that's -- Sarah: Yeah. Skipper: So pulling those -- yep. You're right, there's no question. Yep. So I wonder -- Sarah: They're good points. Skipper: Yeah.