Skipper Chong Warson: This week, we're replaying Kacie Lett Gordon's episode. We'll be back in a few weeks with a new episode from Sarah Sudhoff. And following that, we'll have the last episode of the first season, a flip of sorts. [Intro music] Skipper: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson. I'm a design director in San Francisco. Thanks for listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about a topic that they know an awful lot about. I have Kacie Lett Gordon with me today, we're going to talk about what it means to have it all as a woman at this time, and her recent journey to build a platform for quote-unquote, it all in several different ways, including her podcast, Fuck It All. Thank you for making time today. Kacie, I really appreciate it. Kacie Lett Gordon: Skipper, thank you for having me here. I was laughing before we got on the line because I'm not used to being on this end of the microphone. I'm used to telling stories I'm not used to having my story told. So, you know, I drank a good amount of coffee. I was tempted to maybe have a drink but I came -- just me nervous on a Monday. Skipper: Sure. (Pauses) So, Kacie, I want to find out more about you. Let's start with pronouns actually. This is something that I'm adding to the show. Mine are he/him/his. How should I refer to you? Kacie: Hmm, thank you for asking. And I love that you're putting that at the top of your episodes. I think it's just a wonderful example of how we can actively begin to change the conversation, my pronouns are she/her/hers. (Pauses) Thank you for asking. Skipper: So, Kacie, who are you? Tell us some things. Kacie: That's always such a big question. I start now by saying I'm a modern woman. And I used to list out all the things that I did, or roles that I occupied, but I didn't start with that. And for me, over the past few years has really become evident that if I don't tend to that first, I don't accept that I am, I am Kacie, I am that person that all the other roles I occupy begin to crumble. And so I start there. I'm a mother, I'm a mother to an 18-month-old daughter, and you and I were talking about this, you have a daughter as well. And -- Skipper: I do. Kacie: It's the most rewarding role I've ever occupied. It's big, right? I am someone who really likes short-term gratification. And this is the long haul. This is not instant. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: So I'm learning, you know, she's teaching me that. And in becoming a parent, and I'm sure this is true of any parent, but certainly a mother of a daughter, I carry that weight heavily. I recognize that the behaviors I model, the things I say, the thoughts I think are going to become the things that she says, does, and thinks. Skipper: Sure. Or actively works against, right? There could be -- Kacie: Oh god, yeah. You emulate or, you know, you retaliate. So it's one of those. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I'm a wife, I have a wonderful husband, we've been together for eight years. He's a pretty fabulous partner in all senses of the word. I was or am a businesswoman, I think about this difference between businesswoman and founder, I recently have taken on the role of founder. Still uncomfortable for me to say that. I keep saying, Oh, yeah, it's this thing I'm doing. No, you're starting a company, it's okay to own that. But above all else, I'm a storyteller. I think I was put here on this earth to be a storyteller. We're story-driven beings. I know the things, the lessons, the values I hold in my life come through stories. Those are what we tell each other. And I, whether it's in business, or in life, parenthood partnership, it is written or spoken, it has become the biggest thread -- and I think my gift that I'm meant to give the world. So those are the roles I occupy today. Skipper: Well, having listened to a few episodes of your podcast before we sat down to record today, I have to say that one of the things that I admire about you from what I can glean is this notion of authenticity. I think that you are speaking in your true voice, regardless of the discomfort or maybe this idea of imposter syndrome, which is talked about a little bit, but I really appreciate you putting forth what I feel like is your honest self or as honest as you feel like you can be. Kacie: Yeah, thank you for that. I actually think that I'm probably more honest on the podcast in a platform where I can sit with my thoughts and not have to look at the faces of everybody around me that I am maybe in my, you know, everyday life. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: Authenticity, I think it's a muscle. I think it's something that we have to build and I don't know that there are examples but in our in everyday life, but of the big stories we take in whether it's on social media, whether it's, you know, in business, role models, media, we don't often see a lot of that. And sometimes people that are praised for being authentic, I think that it borders on this boldness that can also be harsh. Like, Oh they're so honest. Skipper: Right? Kacie: My mom always used to say honesty without sensitivity is just brutality. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And, you know, as a 16-year-old girl, I probably needed that. But for me, it's how do I walk in my truth knowing that my intentions are good. As I said, I'm a storyteller, I tell stories as a way to help others, hopefully, see a different way of being or living or feel brave to do the same. And so I think that finding purpose in my authenticity, where it doesn't just feel selfish, I'm not doing it just to feel good. Which it does feel good, right? I think being honest to yourself, you do feel a lightness. It's no longer hard to remember which narrative you're supposed to be following. It's a little bit more free space in your mind. But it is -- I think, in service of others, I have a phrase I've recently put together, I feel the most alone in the presence of perfection. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: Think of a friend or family member, someone you meet that has the perfect home and the perfect marriage and the perfect job. I don't know about you, I walk away feeling like shit. I'm like, Jesus. Well, they're so great, I guess I'm not. And it's those people around you that pull back the curtain a little bit and show some of the grit that they at least draw me in the most. They make me feel like I want to be around them. Skipper: Yeah, that's a good point. So Kacie, what's something about you that people might not guess? Something that you feel comfortable sharing? Kacie: I think I come across as -- I won't say bubbly because that's such an overused term -- but I think I really come across as that people person, right, I can be outgoing. I can ask great questions. I can be very engaged. But I require a pretty significant amount of alone time. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: And I think for the longest time, I was like, Well, I'm an extrovert so I must love people. Skipper: Right? Kacie: And then I would feel so drained. My husband, he's opposite, right? He could be around people and he gets his energy. Like, a relaxing time for him is, you know, being around four or five buddies. A relaxing time for me is two days by myself with no other person. And so I don't know that people get that at first glance, but, man, I need it. Skipper: Yeah, I think that's really important to understand how you're wired, because your presentation or the way that people generally think about you, it could be totally wrong. And I think the way in which we own some of those labels, sometimes we own them in really convenient ways and sometimes we own them in what can be destructive or exhausting, or, you know, things like that. So, yeah, I think it's really important to recognize what sort of person you are, even if it's not at the broadcast level where you're sharing that with a wide audience, just understanding that this is what you need as a person. Kacie: Yeah, that's really good. And you mentioned something about the external piece and the roles we occupy with other people. I battled that a lot. I grew up in a fairly small town where both sides of my family were from there. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: So I had never made a new friend until I was 20 years old because I always had an established group of people because we knew each other since kindergarten. And it was such an interesting thing. When I finally moved out of state, I went to a master's program in North Carolina, and it was the first time in my life that no one knew who I was before. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: And I got to actually say, like, without all of those opinions or perceptions, yeah, who would I be? What would I do? What do I need? I just, I think that that's a really hard thing sometimes to shut off all the noise and just hear who we are and what we need individually. Skipper: Yeah. (Pauses) So Kacie, from our intro conversation, and I gave some of it away in the introduction, but what are the things that we're talking about today? What are the things that you know an awful lot about? Kacie: Ooh, well, I will say I know a lot about my experience with being a modern woman. So I have a company and a podcast called Fuck, quote, unquote, It All. And what we're going to talk about is the tensions of being a woman that has it all. And we're told that at a very young age that we can have it all. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: That's wonderful that we don't feel those limiting beliefs, but holy hell, does that burden, then start to set in that pressure? I think as women, we take any of our roles really seriously. And so I've started a dialogue and a conversation and a platform around what are those tensions? And how do we, as a collective, begin to show other ways of being living, working, loving, so that in the moments that I felt most alone in my life, which are usually in those moments where you really start to push the boundaries of maybe what is immediately around you uncomfortable, that you have a crew there, you have people there you have a tribe there somebody to talk to. So that's hopefully where we will take today's conversation. Skipper: Yeah, I love that you -- the way that you've titled the podcast, because number one, using a curse word in the title, I think, I don't find that as something that scares me off as a person. But I think you also set a tone. And the idea that you know, this notion of it all, this idea of, and I know that there have been advertising campaigns and marketing campaigns around how so and so can have it all, women can have it all. They can, you know, be a mother and have a career. And all of these things, as well as other people can have it all, but I'm thinking specifically of how women have been told that they can have it all. However, it doesn't necessarily line up, I think to generally speaking, and everyone has a different experience, but generally, the feminine experience, really, it's tired, gender stereotypes, women being underpaid for the same roles. There are a lot of things that I think are lacking in terms of gender equity. So yeah, can you dive in? And that was a lot of intro. I didn't mean to talk that much. But what does it mean for you as a woman to have it all? Kacie: Yeah, well, I'll tell a couple of stories, because why not storytelling, right? So I'll give a TL;DR version of this. So I mentioned this, I come from a fairly small town. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I was the first of my immediate family to go to college, for a four-year degree. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: I was raised, my dad is in my life, but I was raised by a single mother who owned her own business, she also couldn't move to certain opportunities, because her ex-husband and child lived in a small town. And so she needed to stay close. So I saw some of those limiting factors that I don't know that other people maybe would have felt -- men, otherwise. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: There were just these things that I began to look around me at an early age and say, I want more, I always felt a restlessness. And I was part of that generation that truly began to see like our moms did work full time, they were bringing home the bacon, fry it up in the pan, so to speak. But my mom also ran our household there wasn't you know, we weren't of a financial stature where you outsource that, there wasn't a housekeeper. There wasn't -- So she was doing both simultaneously. And now, as a mother, I think about that. I mean, I really felt a sense of security, a sense of love that she had it figured out, and I can't also be a business owner, being an ex-wife being you know, all of these things like how that must have felt in the time and how much strength. So I'm on this fast track to have it all. I know I'm gonna I want to move away. I know I want to live in a city. I know I want to dress and look a certain way. I know I want to have a certain kind of marriage. I know I want to travel. I know I want to be the executive right, I just am reaching for all of these narratives that the best version in each of them there, there was no mediocre. Skipper: I see. Kacie: And so I think as someone who I was applauded for that, right? I was applauded for going above and beyond you could have an A but I didn't have 100. So let me work harder it was and some of these are just hardwiring of who we are as people and not bad but they can get to a point where our benefits or our strengths have become ruinous because they're, they take over. Skipper: That's right. Kacie: And I do it all, right? I moved to a city I moved to Atlanta, get married, have a beautiful house, get pregnant, I'm 30 years old, coming -- the day I leave for maternity leave, I get promoted to senior vice president, have a team, come back from maternity leave, and becoming a parent, for me and I think this is, you know -- I think parenthood for any person is incredibly transformative. But at a purely physiological level, motherhood is a unique and insane experience. Your hormones are taking over to the point where you have this priority of this child like there's, you know, for me, I was breastfeeding. So I was coming back to work and I was an executive making decisions but also running to pump in a closet. Like, you know, and you're not I -- my daughter didn't sleep for six months. So I was having this truly out of the body in some ways because I'm coming back, I should be on top of my game. And I felt -- Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I theoretically have it all. And the moment where it all just came crashing down for me is I have been back at work about three months. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I had a full like, I don't cry easily, especially in public settings. I was in a meeting of 11 people, 11 executives, and when I say like, heaving hysterical tears, I just was unable, like, I felt responsible for the world. But I felt like I didn't even hardly have the energy to get a shower. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: And there was just I was paralyzed with the responsibility. And I didn't see because people had always known me as the one who could just hustle, kick-ass, any aggressive narrative there of women just doing it, I felt like a giant failure. And so I was driving home from work about three or four months in and it was December last year and two years ago now. And I thought really seriously about driving into the onramp wall. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And I say, not enough to kill myself, but certainly, enough to hurt myself bad enough where I'd be excused of all the responsibilities. And I could finally take a breath. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And that -- Skipper: Yeah, I think -- Kacie: Go ahead. Skipper: Sorry, I was just gonna add one interjection. I didn't know if you were gonna say it or not but I think it's in the episode of your show, WTF is FIA -- not to diminish people who are depressed or have mental health challenges. Because in the way that you tell the story, that's a very real and palpable feeling that people are experiencing, especially now during quarantine, lockdown, all of the things that are happening around, you know, the novel coronavirus, and COVID-19. So, you recognize that this was your experience, not necessarily other people's experiences. Kacie: Completely. That's, I think such a powerful piece is that I knew at this moment that something was not right with me. I think, you know, I had what I suppose is probably late-onset postpartum depression. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: I've always dealt with anxiety. And so I knew what that felt like, I knew what that looked like, I had been medicated for years. But this branched into something that was beyond just those things. And I knew it just, I had the wherewithal to say, this has gone too far. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: I came home to my husband, I said, So I thought pretty seriously about driving my car off the road as I was going to pick up our daughter. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I think we need to talk about that. And I think that something has to change. And I was very fortunate that one, I felt I had the tools and means to be able to have that pause and have that honest conversation. And I'm very fortunate that I had people around me that listened and said, Yeah, you're right. We're here. Let's game plan And so -- Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: That journey started for me of redefining it all, because on paper, I had it all, right? If you read my narrative, like damn, she's got it going on. But to be miserable within that circle of it all, I just thought there has to be more for -- there has to be more to life. And, again, I think you know, parenthood has become a very strong pillar. It's been a transformational moment in my life. And I think everybody's experience is unique, so I don't speak universally to it. But parenthood for me challenged me to walk in my values, not just talk in them. Skipper: Yeah. I love that you just brought up values. Values are something that you talk about some amount on your show, you specifically talk about Brené Brown's notion in her book, "Dare to Lead". And that idea that we all have two core values that lead us, so I want to rewind it a little bit. And setting that as a context, you talked about after that moment needing to sit down and make this framework or make this game plan for you, in terms of how you move forward as a person, as a mother, as part of a family. How did you start that process? And then part of that process being those two core values, like how did you start and then end up in that space? Kacie: So when I started to say, When I came home to my husband and said things need to change, he said, Yeah, you're right. This was in December. I did what anybody does, I Googled it, How do you figure out what you want to do? And then I realized, like, What a shit show that is, but seriously, though, I started reading some books, I looked to other people, you know, this is not listening -- there's a whole world out here of people trying to figure it out. And fortunately, we have some amazing people who put it into book form, podcast form, like there's an abundance of resources, I think, even sometimes too much to start, but I came across this book, "Everything Is Figureoutable" by Marie Forleo. Skipper: Okay -- and we'll link to that in the show notes. Kacie: Yes, she's a Jersey girl. She has a super successful media and coaching empire, I will say. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But what I loved is she wrote about it in a way that was authentic to her. There's authenticity, right? It wasn't maybe the way I would write it, but you could tell that she was speaking her truth. And there were really tangible pieces in there. So part of that work is around values. I, at the same time, had started working with a coach shortly thereafter. And I am such a proponent for that of just -- the same way that a therapist exists or a consultant exists, an external third party that is not living your shit day in and day out, is so powerful to help you work through that. And so the two that rose to the top, so I'll break it into two separate ones, I have values when it comes to the work I do. And these maps back and there's -- because I love the F word, the book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck", he talks about setting goals more around values than a binary goal because for instance, you say, I want to make $100,000? Well, the minute you accomplish that, you feel empty because there's not anything else to work for. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: Instead, if you say one of my values is honesty, whether you are talking to your seven-year-old daughter, or an investor of a big company, or the president or whoever, you can ask yourself, Am I being honest? And so as we're wired, as humans being able to have that spectrum goal versus it being binary. And that was powerful to me. Because there are three things that I carry into my work, it's connect people, create value, and change what it means to be a woman in business. I am at my best when -- and I truly don't know where it comes from, I think it is, you know, I believe in gifts and I think it is a gift -- I am able to not just see the person in front of me that is maybe through the lens of business or through the lens of friendship, I'm able to see them I think in multiple dimensions who they are as a child or a parent, who they are as a friend, what it was like to get dumped that one time, whatever it is, it's this human experience of all of these culminating moments. And so the ability to do that allows me to uniquely connect people I think I can say Hey, I don't know if you know this, but you should meet. And I've been the product of so many great business relationships, new jobs, my sister married my husband's best friend, guys, I'm a matchmaker. No, but I really think that it's something that for whatever reason, I'm able to do and I believe strongly about understanding what your gifts are and not trying to deny them or make them small, like own that. And then creating value. I know that for me, that's memorable. Changing what it means to be a woman in business. I couldn't look around -- I saw a lot of people maybe, you know like I see like an Oprah like, yeah, she's authentic. I love her. But I didn't see women in my immediate sphere, who I felt were living lives that I would want to emulate. They were logging back on late at night, they were tired. They were constantly saying, I want to lose weight. They were saying all of this negative self-talk. And I thought I want to be around somebody who likes themselves. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And I think that's part of the narrative is you know, as a woman, if you don't dislike yourself a little bit, then you're not humble. Skipper: Oh, interesting. Kacie: What bullshit is that? Skipper: Yeah. Because it's a double standard in that way. If you apply that same standard to a man generally, you don't see the same value in a man who doesn't necessarily come into a room and is not proud about the thing that he did, or his team did, or you know, whatever it is. So, yeah, the double standard is pretty loud in that situation. Kacie: It is, and I think that's the tension that I seek to explore is this idea that -- be confident, own your power, but don't do it so much that it feels aggressive. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And that is such a subjective spectrum. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And so as a woman to have to constantly be recalibrating, am I ambitious, but aggressive, Skipper: Right? Kacie: That's exhausting. Because that changes audience to audience, you may have somebody who's very secure, maybe has strong women in their life and they're totally accustomed to that where you might have other people who haven't had that experience. And it's very off-putting. And so I think that we are, we are all as humans constantly adapting to the world around us, I think that women specifically, especially in a business setting, have to do it at a higher frequency, with a lot more care. And a lot of us are already in jobs that require an incredible level of intelligence and EQ. And so to spend any energy on having to be perfect prevents us from being excellent at the jobs that we're hired to do. Skipper: Yeah, that's a good point, I -- a very short story. I'm in the middle of reading the first three Harry Potter books to my daughter for the second time around. And as we're diving into the books, we're in the middle of the second book, and there's a moment where Hermione Granger, where JK Rowling has written some piece of scene direction where she describes her money as being bossy. And that's a moment where I sat down with my daughter, and I said, Look, this is a word that this particular author used to describe Hermione at this moment. Do you think that that feels like she's being bossy to you because really, the context of the scene is that she's reminding Harry of an engagement that he previously said that he was going to go to the deathday party, and miss out on Halloween in the Great Hall. And so we had this discussion around, you know, what is what does that mean? Is it appropriate? Is there another way that we can say that because I also know, as an adult, having read Sheryl Sandberg's book "Lean In", like bossy is one of those terms that I don't hear that term being applied to men. You don't walk out of a meeting and say, Boy, that guy was super bossy. But that's something that is absolutely used to describe a woman. So that is a very gendered observation -- even veiled as a criticism, right. So I think, to your point, that there are all sorts of moments that I don't think that we realize fall down on gender lines, but they absolutely do. Kacie: Completely. And I love the example that you used of reading to your daughter, we have a book in my household called the "Not so Brave Penguin". And it's about a boy penguin and a girl penguin. Can you guess which one is brave? Skipper: Uh, the girl? Kacie: No, no, she's not. Well, in my household, we read it with the pronouns switched. And the reason we do that is one -- Skipper: Oh, nice. Kacie: It's okay for boys to not be brave, should be okay for them to be scared -- Skipper: It should be. Kacie: And should also be really cool that one of the girls likes to ride iceberg slides and jump into the water with a big splash, that she should be rambunctious and fun. Those should be okay. And I just think it's so interesting that the not so brave penguin is the sheepish girl and the brave penguin is the boy and so every time I read it, I change the pronouns because I don't want it -- I don't mind that a woman is less brave or more brave, but I don't want it to be the only narrative in her head. Skipper: That's right. Kacie: And I think that's brilliant that you all are having that because, again, it's the power of story. It's the power of you know, she may not remember all of it, but she'll remember that you at least piqued her interest and asked those questions. And she had a point of view on it. Skipper: Yeah. Yeah, it's one of the questions that I shipped over to you before we're talking today but I feel like maybe to a fault, I do this with my daughter, like, Richard Scarry's book, "What Do People Do All Day?" It's written back in the 70s. And definitely has very gendered ideas of who the doctor is. It's the male lion. You know who the teacher is. It's, you know, who are the people in authority and they're almost all male. And his son I know has gone back and retooled some of the books to include one of the male family members in the kitchen chopping vegetables, which wasn't there in his original book. And so like, sometimes when I read these things to her, you know, I take that moment and I say, Hey, just so you know this, and it totally interrupts the flow of the story, right? My daughter stops me, she's like, Just read the book, just read the book. But at the same time, she'll say something like, you know, it's fine. I can do I can do these things. I know I can, I know I can be a doctor, I see other ways in a more modern context, like Doc McStuffins, she sees not only a little girl being a doctor, but her mom is a doctor, and a little girl of color and a woman of color. So, you know, I say that all to go along the lines of my answer to her is, Yes, you can do these things. But how would you say, like, I can also prepare her for this notion that the world isn't set up like that by default, right? There are going to be lots of people who tell you that you can't do that. So as the father of a little girl who I'm hoping, you know, grows up to be very strong and self-reliant and resilient. What can I do to reinforce this idea that she can do anything? Full stop. And so much more than other people around her might think that she can without falling her into that trap of, well, you can have it all you can have, you can do this and this and this, but empower her in this way? Kacie: God such a beautiful question. And I love that we're in a place where we can have that right? Like, I have to sometimes stop and acknowledge that generation -- that it is a luxury to have the mental space to stop and ask ourselves this, that other generations, a lot of times -- I interviewed a woman on the show that she was someone's grandmother, and she's like -- Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: There were so many choices in my life made out of desperation. And I think it's beautiful that you all can even have the naming and the tools and the language to have this conversation. So I just acknowledged that we're in a beautiful moment in time that this is a topic. The second is, I think that what we previously defined it all as was a list of things you could accomplish or have, Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: It was not a way you could feel. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: So you can be a great mom and have a career. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: You can be ambitious. Again, not aggressive, though. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: You can make your own money, you can buy your own things, you can have an education. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: What we didn't talk about, and this is what really my mission is that I was 30 years old, having what I would consider a breakdown before I stopped and asked myself for the first time, What is my all? And that is this qualifier is for me what works for me. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: Because I have you know, I have a dear friend, and this is part of my founding story of it all is that she's a stay at home, mom. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: She said to me, we were both had our children about a month within each other. And she and I were I was getting ready to get back on maternity leave, she had just left her job fully. I'm staying home. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: She said, I am embarrassed to tell our generation that I am staying home because I chose to not have it all when I technically could. They judged me. And I was judging her silently. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But in my mind, I was thinking God do really like want to leave. Is your husband pushing you to do that? I was asking all this. And for her, all was being a full-time mother staying home and creating this home and learning environment that is far more robust than what I provide for my daughter. And that's okay. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: As long as it is her decision. And so what I think about a lot is, I wish I had more conversations around what I wanted to feel, not what I wanted to do. I said I'll give an example. In my last job, I worked in consulting, and we would tell our clients this all the time -- outcomes over outputs. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: So I really want to grow my audience base, let's say. Skipper: Yeah Kacie: Okay. Well, what if you could do one ad placement that would reach a million customers, for instance? Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: Versus picking up the phone. And just because that felt good, because your boss saw you every day picking up the phone, doing it? Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: Why would you not do the simpler path to get to where you want to go that maybe is a little different, but it's the output -- or that, pardon me -- it's the outcome -- Skipper: Outcome. Kacie: That you want, versus feeling caught in this rat race. And I think that that's the thing that I would love us to tap into is, you know, our children are going after something, whether it's, they say they want to be a doctor. Amazing. What about that? What do you want to be at? Why do you want to be a doctor? I want to help people. Awesome. What else? And being able to get to that? If the answer is because that's how you make a lot of money? Or the answer is, that's what so and so did. I think we have to do a click down into that and really get to the heart of how our children wired. What are they wanting? Because I think that's, kids are always gonna make their own mistakes, right? I'm sure your parents told you some things that you're like, I'll figure it out on my own. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But wouldn't it be great? Not if we could prevent them from making the mistakes, but make sure they have the tools that when they do they can course-correct? Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: That's where I'm at. And I think that also praising on the behaviors that you love, not necessarily the accomplishments, praising her or any child on being brave. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I'm being kind. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: Doing something hard. Wow, that test was really hard. I really appreciate that you studied for that, versus just getting the accomplishment. Because I think that wires us to then we're just focused on that output. We're not focused on the outcome, we're just focused on getting the accomplishment, we're not focused on being a good or, you know, insightful or reflective person. Skipper: Yeah. Plus one. Absolutely to what you're saying, I would take it one step further, because, you know, you talked about what happens when we study for a test. And we do well, or we don't do well, calling out specifically the action versus assigning a value. And there is a book that I read before my daughter was born, called "NurtureShock". You give them feedback about the thing that they did, right? You compliment them on the work that they did, versus saying something like a blanket statement, like, Oh, you're smart, right, like being very specific. And that's something that I think is absolutely applicable to being a parent, and making sure that you're giving your child the right feedback because if you tell them that they're smart, eventually, over time, they're going to encounter some situation where they don't feel smart, or they don't feel like they can push through that and get through the tension to the other side. And then they're going to feel like a failure. But if the thing that they receive feedback about is the grit, the work that they're doing in order to get through the tension to the other side, then that's something that they will act on and carry with them. So I think that's absolutely -- plus one. Kacie: It just took me to parenting church over here. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the other case, there was another part to your question where you said, How do you also help them be ready to encounter a world in which there are people who may not think that they can do or accomplish certain things? Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And I think we all have intuition, but I will tell you, I think a woman's intuition is one of our gifts. And so I ask myself, I've gotten better with time -- I used to go into, under, trying to lead by consensus? What is my husband gonna think? What is my friend gonna think? What is my partner, pardon me, my parents gonna think? Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And then later, I would ask myself, but by the time I asked myself, my mind was so cloudy, it had so much noise. And so I wonder -- Skipper: So much data, so much -- Kacie: I wonder if there's something with our children, that we first ask them what they think. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: And allow them to develop their own voice, their own intuition, their own knowledge, their own way of thinking through things because, I mean, that's why meditation is powerful, right? You sit alone with your thoughts, and then you're able to get clarity. And I think that so often we go into advice-giving mode or directing mode, and God as a parent that's a go-to place. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But to instead say, Well, why do you think it? I find that there's a knowing that's really deep. And you often realize that the people who are giving you advice or naysaying, it's about them, it's not about you, right? We have a mutual friend, Jen Dary, and after all of her workshops, she works with people in their career, manager training was one of the things I had done with her, but she gives you a card to open on a bad day at work. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And mine said, Remember, it's mostly not about you. Skipper: Right. Kacie: I have that sitting on my desk. And I think about that all the time. I'll have a bad interaction with them. It's not about me. Their reason why I can't do something is that they knew somebody out, you know, I'll tell you going out on my own doing my own business. I had so many people would say, But you had this great job, you had security -- why would you do that? That is told through their lens of what they value through what their lens of maybe they knew somebody who had an unsuccessful business, nothing to do with me, it's not malicious. And so we'll come full circle, I'll drop this -- so you asked me about my values, my two values that I make decisions on are to be known for being me. So to be known and authenticity. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: And because I, I thought about the times in my life, when I felt the most grounded, I felt the most, I will say successful, not just like in achievement or money, but just like the most like, you know, in flow when you feel your power. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: And it's when I was something as simple as you know, telling a friend or making a recommendation or sharing an experience and them saying, like, God, that helped me so much. And so even when it came time for me to leave the job I was in, it was so important for me to leave in a way that was about me, it was authentic to me and my journey, it wasn't pointing the fingers on you are all messed up. But instead, it is my journey. And to do it in a way that left me being known for my character, or my follow-through. And so I think that for me, it's knowing what I want to be known for in certain circumstances. That's a double-edged sword. Because there are certain narratives in our minds, right? I want to be a good wife, a good daughter. And those can sometimes be at odds with your authenticity. But if you choose to walk in your path, at least for me, of my mom used to say, I may not like what you have to say, but I'll always respect you for being honest. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: That to me is, I don't have to be, I don't have to be liked. But I would really like to be respected. Skipper: Yeah. That's a very wise thing to say. And very inclusive. (Pauses) So I'm curious, Kacie, as you're going down this path, you're creating, you're carving out this new endeavor for yourself -- what's been hard and what's been easy? Kacie: It's been hard going at it alone. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: I think that -- I mean, you layer on entrepreneurship in any world, it's isolated, you layer it on a pandemic, where, you know, you and your husband and your child and your dogs are in four walls and you're working out of the guest room, and there's not a co-working space or coffee people it's very lonely. And so recognizing that and finding ways to have a connection. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I think the other piece of it is people knew me in a very certain light, right, I left at quote, unquote, the top of my game. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: People knew me in a very specific way. So reintroducing yourself in the way that you're going to be seen and acting now, including saying the F word which some people, like you said, like, I had one woman that said, Listen, I saw the name of your show, and I immediately deleted it. Because I don't want to say F it all, I want to have it all. And I had to be okay with saying like, but you're not my audience. So that's okay. I'm not creating something for everyone. Because if I did, it would be for no one. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And those have been really challenging. And I think that also, I've been having grappling with this, redefining what work looks like. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: Great book, "Company of One", strongly recommend it, put it in your show notes. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: But it talks about, right now, we're in a culture where it's growth at all costs, right? startup culture, entrepreneurship is go, go, go -- speed to market. Skipper: That's right. Kacie: It's not about sustainability. It's about hitting your growth as fast as possible. So you can have an exit. Skipper: That's right. acquisition, yeah. What does that look like? Who's gonna buy you etc. Kacie: So very different goal set, then I want to make a mark on the world and have a good income, right? I want to, I work hard, I want to be compensated for that. But -- Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I can do it at my own pace. And that's okay. There's a lot of people who are very successful that didn't do it, you know before they were 25. And over the course of 18 months, like that's, you know, that's, that's okay. And so, I am -- last week, I am part of a mastermind group. And I think they're just wonderful, like, a wonderful way to really be reflective and have accountability. And -- Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I had said that I wanted to feel lighter. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: Right. We had the inauguration last week and everything over the past several months. It's just felt really heavy. You have a pandemic, you have, you know, political climate. I was leaving my job. My husband started his MBA program. It's just been a heavy few months. Skipper: A lot. Kacie: Yeah, it's been a lot and I said, like, I would love to feel lighter. I would love just to have more joyful conversations. And it's funny that when you ask for things of how they actually manifest, so I was sitting there Wednesday. I'm like, honestly, I just want to lay on the couch and watch "The Crown". I don't, I'm dreading these meetings. And I started to really ask myself why. And it's because I went, I created a week that looks like my old job. It wasn't the work that needed to happen. Now, I had random meetings that didn't need to happen. I was in my email, why? I can respond later. And so it's redefining work. And this book, "Company of One", they talk about that, how do you retrain. I mean, it kind of goes along with the idea of it all is, you know, my life does not have to look like other people's and that's okay. It can be isolating, but so freaking, rarely do you meet someone that says, Oh, my God, you left your job, you had a few months off, and you're figuring out what you want. Usually, the next thing is, I'm so jealous. I wish I could have that. Skipper: That's right. Yeah. Kacie: And so that's been hard. The easy part, the easy part is telling stories. I set out to -- I said, originally, I was going to tell 10 women's stories. So I reached out to my network, I had an idea of who I wanted for each one. Within a week, I had a backlog of 50 stories. Skipper: Wow. Kacie: And there's just a craving for this. There's like, I don't know how else to say it other than you just feel like you're in the right place at the right time. And they're, you know, that reinforcement and that energy, and then hearing from women. A woman that I met, she's in Malaysia, I'm in Atlanta. And she and I talk like, weekly, she was just a guest on my show. And she's like, I'm an Asian woman going through a divorce, I feel so alone. Skipper: Right. Kacie: And she's like, thank you for creating a platform. So that has been, it's like following your gut and seeing people it resonate. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: That's been the easiest and most rewarding part so far. Skipper: That's wonderful to hear. I love hearing because you can listen to the podcast, and you can walk away from or at least I walk away, I'll own it, I walk away from each episode with the pieces of factual information that I learned, but then also, sometimes talk about general life tactics or other pieces of information that have been gleaned along the way from either you or your guests. To your point, I think that there's something really important about putting Fuck It All as a podcast out in the world, being real about it, focusing on the things that you want to hear about, focusing on the 10 subject matters. What are the things that you want to hear, investigate, find out more, be curious, be open? I think that's great. Kacie: It's -- I think if I mean, you have a podcast called How This Works. So you're curious, right? And I think if you were somebody who is curious, and in many ways, I'm searching for my own answers, right, and I selfishly get to do it through a platform where I talk to women who I admire and want to learn from and so it's a gift. It's -- I'm very fortunate that I get to spend my days that way right now. And no matter what comes of it, I'm so grateful that I gave myself that space to be creative and to invest in those relationships. Skipper: Yeah. So, Kacie, if you're comfortable talking about it, it's not just the podcast that you're working on, right, you are building a company? What else is happening for you in terms of this world-building that you can or you want to talk about? Kacie: Yeah, I'll talk about it as freely as I can. And I am not for any sort of confidentiality, it's really that I decided essentially on January 4, that I was going to make this a business and now it's January 25. So we're, you know, 21 days in, one COVID scare in and we're all safe, but had one of those, you know, kid home from daycare. So we're getting through, but it's still early. So, I think, I'll tell you my big bold dream is in three, five years, whatever the number, I'm not even gonna put a number on it. It's the same effect on women of how they want to be live, work, love, have wealth, etc. I want to have the same impact that I feel Oprah had on telling stories. Skipper: Oh, wow. Okay. Kacie: I want to, I want to entertain and I want to educate. So some of this, I think, is a media company within itself. And what does that look like? I've never thought about it. But I'm like, Am I writing stories about this, like that? That has never happened to me. But as I started to get into this and thinking about the characters and so that's interesting. I imagine a world in which there's community. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I think every person goes through some point in their life. I don't think it's just women where we all say Fuck It All. Whatever the script says, I gotta throw it to the side. And if you're lucky, you go through that. I think because I think it's an empowering and enlightening human experience. My hope is that we have more women having it earlier in their life and that there are is a safe place for them to go community, may be physical or digital -- COVID obviously introduces a lot of challenges, but also of how the world is going to look like afterward. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: Where we are comfortable to say what we want, I want, you know, I know so many women that even our relationship with wealth and independence, and what that means is, it's challenging. And so how do we, how do we do that? And what are those limiting factors all the way from? You know, I have an idea for a podcast called Forget it all, where you have a bunch of little kids, when they're talking about what is they What do they think about a goal? Like, I want to think about, like, how do we change this narrative? And I've had some really wonderful parents of boys on the show. And they also talk about what role can they take, you know, like, how do they engage with the next generation in a conversation earlier? And so I think it's education and entertainment because I think that again, you know, we are the stories that we observe. And I also think that I believe strongly, we're the product of the five people we spend the most time with. And recognizing that for certain areas of growth in our life, we may need to have a different five people. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And it's not because the people around you are bad, but they may have limiting experiences or views, that they are projecting onto you and you as an individual, as a woman, and I speak to women because that's my truth. But listen, this stuff is, you know, please anybody out there like therapy? Yes, coaching, yes, self-reflection. And, like, Sure, I would love that just to be a baseline for humankind. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But that's where I'm at. I mean, I see a world in which there could be peer to peer microlending for women to pursue the things they want to do, I think that there are ways to get the education system involved in this or there, you know, courses that people can take is their self paced learning. You know, that's one thing that's come up a lot is, I'm not ignorant to my privilege, right. I'm a white woman who has a partner that has a full-time job and health insurance. My daughter is in daycare, I have two degrees. I recognize all of that. And so if you removed any one of those, not to mention several of those. My truth would or my experience would be very, very different. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And so it's not only telling my stories, but it's creating a platform where other contributors and collaborators can help people who have the same truth as them. Skipper: Yes, Kacie! Yes, thank you for saying that. We come from a place of privilege, extreme privilege, some of which is afforded to us by the notion that we are not people of color, I have a whole sidebar that we could get into but we won't here about how even as a Korean person, I don't feel like I'm a person of color in the same way that it has manifested for other people, or that even really feel like. That's for later so I'm super glad that you called that out. So thank you for that. Kacie: Yeah. And I think that listen, we like you said, or it doesn't devalue our experience. I think comparative suffering is bullshit, right? Like, let's not enjoy something that we have, somebody doesn't have it or vice versa, put ourselves in suffering because somebody else's suffering, I think that's a really unhealthy behavior in general. Skipper: 100%. Kacie: But if my goal is to help women, not just women like me -- Skipper: Right. Kacie: Redefine it all and do that. at a level that is scalable. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: It can't be just one woman pushing the boulder up the hill, we're gonna go a lot further, faster and better, by inviting others and I think, you know, I think that's a very feminine mindset of abundance, right? There's not a finite amount to go around that you think about -- and again, this is very big generalities, but it's, Hey, my table has enough room, we'll slide the chair over, we can always make more food. It's that idea that you know, bringing people together and hosting and having everyone have a place. I think that's a very different way, a very different narrative and way of being that the business community does not have today. Skipper: Yeah, I agree. Kacie, is there something that we haven't talked about yet in terms of -- and look, I think our conversation if you really wanted to, we could run another hour, we can make a part two, part three, part four, but is there anything that you want to get into that we haven't gotten into yet? Kacie: I really don't have anything top of mind. I think we've talked you know, we've jumped around in a really good way, I would say if there's anything from the podcast that you know, you're saying like, Hey, that was really unique or interesting or we'd love to touch on -- happy to, I want to make sure that this is following the format and getting your listeners what you hope to get them. Skipper: I mean, this is the kernel of why I started this in the first place is that, you know, as a design director, in a way, professionally, I'm way out of my depth. Although I would argue that there's something about working in design, flexing that curiosity muscle, really focusing on empathy, listening to the human beings who are confronting these problems -- it's all part of that piece of the things that I do professionally. But I intentionally wanted to talk to people who do things differently than I do or who know about things that I have no idea about this subject, right? And to really sit in that tension and listen hard and ask questions and, you know, be dumb and raise your hand and say, I don't know what that means, can you break it down for me? So I think that what we've talked about is great for the encapsulation that we've had in this time. I feel like I have a better sense of who you are in your journey, some of your concerns, what's top of mind, and that's really what my goal is with every episode. Kacie: Perfect. Yeah, I love it. And as somebody who's similarly curious, and when I decided to do a podcast again, Googling, How to podcast, like playing it and finding tools, and you know, doing graphics, and all of that I appreciated going on that creative endeavor, especially when you're really good at your craft to go into a place where you're like a novice. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: I think it brings, for me, it brings out my best creativity, because it allows my active brain to rest in the sense of the craft I do on a day-to-day basis, it allows me to the physicality of even the editing and those pieces. So I love that you're doing this. And if it's good for you, good for me. Skipper: Well, if you don't mind, I'm gonna jump into the closing questions. And for the closing questions, they're closing questions that I like to ask on the show consistently. But I'd actually like to borrow your closing questions. Kacie: Okay. I purposely didn't over-index on answering these. I knew they were coming. But I didn't because I wanted to give you a real off-the-cuff answer. Skipper: Well, thank you for that. So what is the best part of being a woman? Kacie: I think there's two. And I'll speak to my experience because this is not everybody's experience. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: The ability that I had to create my daughter. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: That is, it showed me -- Yes, on a physical level that I could do things that were incredibly hard, your body literally rearranges, bones shift, like it's an amazing testament to what our bodies and humans are capable of. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: But on a personal level, no one goes through -- a mother has, ideally nine months with her child 10 months before they arrive before the rest of the world does. Skipper: Right. Kacie: And they're there with you in the business meeting. They're there with you in the grocery store. They're there with you in the shower. And there is something about, I think, you know, again, I spoke to my husband about this, that he had so many feelings wrapped up into our expecting of a child. But the connection was so different when she was born versus when I was pregnant. And I think that to go through that really alone, it teaches you a lot about yourself. And it was such a powerful experience for me, and I think just gave me so much respect. And I learned to love my body after that. It was, you know, I didn't look at that, that here or that there and wish it wasn't there. It's instead like, hey, this machine gave me that little perfect Angel over there. So I love it. And the second is this, I mentioned it earlier, but intuition is knowing this inner voice and I think we are all capable of it but there's a reason the saying is a woman's intuition. And it's been interesting to me in my life that oftentimes that little voice that was back here that maybe I heard but I didn't listen to that later it was the right answer or what you know, begin reveals itself. And so with age and experience, I think you learn to trust it. But that's where I'm at right now. And those are both just beautiful parts of being a woman to me. Skipper: That's great. Who do you admire? Kacie: I have a lot of women, people, I've been fortunate to have both men and women in my life who are amazing. I admire my, I admire and I'm grateful for my mom. She grew up in a world that I literally could not fathom -- she was, you know, she had outdoor plumbing, she was put up for adoption at one point in her life -- She got married at 17, just to get the hell out of the house. Like those are things that like I've never had to even consider. And that wasn't that long into her life that she had me and she created a totally different reality and environment for me of stability and security and love. And I think that I, even in moments that we disagree. Listen, I recognize I'm pushing generational boundaries like I'm pushing a lot with what I'm doing. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: I'm grateful that I had somebody that loved me enough that I felt secure in my own voice, even if it made other people uncomfortable. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: And then Oprah because Oprah, like, sure, she has a super soul session, I will send it to you to put in the show notes. It is my church, it is what I listened to when I need a hype. And she reads "Phenomenal Woman" by Maya Angelou. But she says somebody early in her life gave her permission to be her. And she goes, And I made a shit ton of money by being here. And I love that. So yes, Oprah Winfrey. I think she's, she's magnificent. Skipper: I think those two women sound like wonderful people of admiration. Kacie: Mm hmm. Skipper: What is the simple pleasure that makes you very happy? Kacie: Coffee. I love it. I love it in a latte. I love it in a drip. I love a French press. I love it. Skipper: I was gonna say, Are you very specific about the way in which your coffee is made? Kacie: Now, I can't believe I'm admitting this on a podcast, but we -- in my house, so all my friends are coffee snobs -- Skipper: Okay. Kacie: I have Maxwell House. You're in San Francisco. So you're probably like literally cringing right now. But the act of a warm cup of coffee in my hand. That is so just, it is very soothing to me. Skipper: Yeah, I'm actually even worse currently in that five days a week -- and it's only on the weekends that I do coffee. And some of that's just like the way that my schedule has been created. And you know, a few other things. But unfortunately, we've created a system in our house, like my wife and I only do French press. And French press just takes a while to go through that process. And look, it makes a stellar cup of coffee. But, you know, it takes about 15 minutes to make it. Kacie: I think that's honestly why I'm hesitant to go down the really amazing coffee route because then it will diminish the amount that I can have -- like I'm not going to a cafe every day, right? I need to make it at home and so I know my boundaries, but I respect it and I enjoy it when it's done right. Skipper: So you weren't you were happy to -- a fancy coffee, you're happy with it. You're also happy with a cheap diner coffee. Or, you know, freeze-dried coffee. Kacie: I really love a cheap diner coffee. And I think it's honestly the mugs. I think it's the great -- like a good mug, that's also another thing is my mug goes with my day. And my husband knows not to pull out certain mugs. They honestly just piss me off. I had to just take some Goodwill the other day. I'm so specific about the coffee mug and some just really bring me good energy. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: All right. So I'm more into the mug than the coffee. There you go. Skipper: Okay. Kacie: Nobody knew. passionate about this, you brought something myself. Skipper: Okay, so fill in the blank. When your power is shaken, or when my power is shaken, I -- Kacie: I usually shut down. It's not always the healthiest, but I really go quiet. But writing for me, physically writing, and just I talk a lot about the five why's and so I'm leaning into that resistance of that was really hard for me. Why? Because that person is important to me. And they didn't think I was good. Why? Because if I'm not achieving that I'm not lovable. Why? Like a lot of that maps back to you know, childhood great. We got to the root cause so I think it's going quiet, it's going into myself, but then the writing aspect of it, the physicality of it. I feel like it truly is being pulled from me and I get more solid footing that way. Skipper: Mm-hmm. And you mentioned in a previous part of our conversation, the notion of meditating, does writing for you have that meditative quality as well? Kacie: It does. It does. I really aspire to be a more frequent and consistent meditator because you know there are certain actions in life that never really has a negative like you never end it and say like Oh, I wish I didn't do that. Meditating is that for me writing is that for me I never walk away and say that was a waste of time. But the discipline to really give yourself the time but yes writing absolutely does. I think that I mentioned it earlier. I'm anxious by nature and my mind, you know, I have a lot of noise in there. It's talking a lot of the time so the ability to actually understand what's something to say versus what's just noise incredibly therapeutic and to use your word meditative for me? Skipper: Yeah, yeah. What are you -- what are you reading now? Kacie: Jay Shetty's "How to Think Like a Monk". Skipper: Okay. Kacie: It's pretty good. I read it at night. So I don't, you know, two melatonin in, I don't go very, very deep. And I'm not going through it fast. But it's one of those where there are lessons within each chapter. So it's almost better not to over-index, to read it, and then sit with a lesson for a day or so. But it was recommended, actually, by one of the guests on my show, and it's been a good read so far. Skipper: Cool. And do you do a lot of nonfiction books versus fiction? Kacie: I usually like to have one of each going at the same time. Skipper: Okay, Kacie: So, my nonfiction books -- I have like an Amazon wishlist that I just you know, the next one I added to the list, and when I go through or getting towards the end, I'll do it. And then for the fiction side of things, quarantined actually started this, two of my friends from back home that now live in DC and California. We all did a book club as just a way to stay in touch, we were over virtual trivia or another Zoom call. And so I think all of us needed that tactile escape from our day to days. Skipper: Yeah. Kacie: And then it had a dual purpose where you could actually catch up with friends that you know, otherwise it -- our lives are just running in different places, children, jobs, husbands, wives, etc. So it was a really nice, nice one to do. Skipper: Cool. What was the book? Do you remember? Kacie: Right now we're about to go into Christine, I want to say Christie Tate, it's "Group Therapy" or "Group" I think is it's called, that's our next one. But I also just got "The Leavers". And I've been reading a lot of Asian American authors lately, and there's just been some really awesome stories about generationally, you know, first-generation kids in America and what that was like across generations, and so I've actually read three or four over the past year that have been wonderful. Skipper: One book that I read last year that I'd absolutely recommend, is a book called "Pachinko". And her last name is -- she's a Kim -- Kacie: Min Jin Lee. Skipper: There we go. Min Jin Lee. She's a Lee. All right, not only do you get a blend of historical fiction but then I feel like I'm speaking as someone who is Korean, I feel like I learned so much about the culture. Kacie: Ooh, I love that. Skipper: In ways that I didn't, I didn't know, they were just, they were mysteries to me. So yeah, "Pachinko" by Min Jin Lee. Kacie: Perfect. And added -- Skipper: Apple TV is developing it into a series. I'm really, really nervous about this series. Like I love this book so much, to the point where it's just like, I hope they don't fuck it up. Kacie: I know, I know. I felt that way about "Little Fires Everywhere". And I appreciated Celeste Ng, who's the author, she said that -- it was like, What'd she say? Johnny Cash and Nine Inch Nails doing "Hurt" two very different experiences. She said you appreciate them both and they are not comparable. And I thought that was an awesome way to say it. So my hope for your show is that it is a wonderful experience. I don't know. But it does not take away from your book. Skipper: Yeah. What's the best advice that you've ever been given? Kacie: Knowing what you don't want can sometimes be just as important as knowing what you do want. Skipper: Knowing what you don't want is as important -- that's, I really liked that. Kacie: So my mom gave me that early is that, When you're 18 -- what do you want to be when you grow up? Well, I have no freaking clue. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: I don't know now. So the ability to -- I think it reframes failure or things not working out, say, Well, now I can check that off the list as something I definitely do not want to do. Skipper: Sure. Kacie: I think that's really powerful. And sometimes you know that process of elimination can lead us to things that are better than maybe if you asked us outright what we wanted. We wouldn't have been able to even fathom the possible. Skipper: Yeah. If you could tell your younger self one thing, what would it be? Kacie: Have more fun. Skipper: Hmm. Kacie: And patience is not just -- patience will bring you peace. Recognizing that things will happen in their own time. And you don't have to rush to get there. Skipper: Do you think your younger self would have been receptive to that message? Kacie: No. She would've run the other way. Like my husband and I laugh all the time. So college, I was hardcore -- I did two majors. I went to a big school like Virginia Tech football. I didn't go to hardly any football games. I was study, study, study. My husband, I listened to his college career. I'm like, Jesus would not have been nice. But you know what, we kind of ended up in the same spot. So I have to ask, was it really worth it? Like, you know, if everything comes out in the wash, and I just think that it's okay to have fun. Life is meant to be joy. Skipper: Yeah, I like that. So, Kacie, we've talked about your podcast. Where is someplace that people can find out more about you? Kacie: ItAllpodcast.com or kacielettgordon.com -- keep it simple, right? So if you're curious and want to know more about me and my background experiences, feel free to reach me there. And then ItAllpodcast. That's where our show, you know, show notes, our episodes, what's coming down the line. And so I would love any of your listeners to join me on my show as well. Skipper: Awesome. Well, Kacie, thanks for making time and space for our conversation. I mean, you were the picture of honesty and straightforwardness. I love it. Kacie: Thank you. Thank you seriously, it's it's been a wonderful way to think about my own story. And like I said at the beginning, be on the other side of the microphone. And I feel out of my comfort zone but in a really healthy way. So thank you for that. Skipper: And thank you for listening to how this works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please subscribe and leave us a review in your favorite podcast app. I have a favor to ask. Would you tell just one other person about the show and why they should listen to it? You can find how this works online at howthisworks.show. It's three words no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media does its thing. I hope that you learned something important from my conversation with Kacie. I know I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: So Kacie, on that note, let's start with you. Who are you? Tell us some things. Kacie: Who am I? That's so great. I --