Skipper Chong Warson: This week, we're replaying our episode with Nova Stanley. We'll be back in a few weeks with a new episode from Sarah Sudhoff. And then the last episode of the first season, one with my wife Laura. [Intro music] Skipper: Hello, I'm Skipper Chong Warson. Welcome to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about things that they know extremely well. And today I have Nova Stanley with me to talk about his work as an artist, about his attending one of the top fine arts high schools in New York City during a pandemic, and his experience as a transgender person. Thank you for making time, Nova. Nova Stanley: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. Skipper: So Nova, will you start -- we start our shows with an introduction from our guests -- will you tell us who you are? Nova: Yeah, my name is Nova. I'm a 17 year old kid from Brooklyn. I'm getting through my senior year, I'm applying to colleges, I'm a bit of a nerd, I like music, and I'm training to be a professional Illustrator. That's my whole, that's my whole deal. Skipper: It's very succinct. I love it. Nova: Thank you. Skipper: So what's one thing about you that people might not guess? And in asking this question, something that you feel comfortable sharing? Nova: Yeah, of course, I was thinking about what would be something fun, the only thing I could really think of is I snap using my pinky finger, which is very random. And you can try doing it. It's very hard for everyone to do it except for me. I don't snap with my index or my middle. I just snap with my pinky. So I think that's something that's pretty unique. And I don't think many people would guess that. Skipper: So you mean like the difference between snapping with your thumb and middle finger or snapping with your thumb and pointer? You snap with your thumb and pinky? Nova: Yeah, I'm a freak. I'm all flexible in my hands. I can make the reach and it makes a good old snapping noise. And it's a bit of a secret superpower. Skipper: Oh, interesting. Nova: And I can do it on both hands, too. I can't -- for whatever reason, I don't know what sort of brainwashing I went under as a child that somehow trained my body to disconfigure and let me snap with my pinky. But yeah, it's pretty powerful. Skipper: I wonder if it's another thing we can attribute to the New York state water. Nova: Oh, all them dang drugs they're putting in the water -- making kids snap with their pinkies now. Skipper: You know, of all the things that I know about you -- as a person, I have to say that I did not know that piece of information about you so thank you for sharing. Nova: Yeah, of course, I'm here to serve. Skipper: So Nova, what are we talking about today? What are the topics that -- and you know, I gave some of it away in the introduction but -- what are the topics that you know an awful lot about? Nova: I like to say as a kid, I don't know an awful lot about much, but the things that I know more than most people do is art, music, Gen Z culture, the LGBTQ community, and some niche internet communities. I think those are my specialties. Skipper: Okay, let's start with the top of the list. Let's start with art. How did you become interested in art? Nova: I think it was in my -- I'm gonna start again. I just want you know, my sister's dog is in here. And she is really needy. And so she's sitting at my feet and so I'm hoping she settles down. But I'm hoping that she won't be too much of a problem. Skipper: That's okay. Nova: It was in my DNA for me to become an artist. Skipper: Okay. Nova: My dad has a master's in painting. And my grandfather went to art school. And my mom is a choreographer. And my uncle is also a painter. And my grandmother also paints for fun, both of my grandmothers paint for fun. I literally, I could not have been anything else, honestly. This was the -- I went into art under my own willing, I'm not being forced into this or held at ransom. But it was meant to be looking at my family history. Skipper: Well, if you were being held for ransom, I would ask that you'd knock twice and -- Nova: I'll snap twice with my pinky finger. Skipper: That's right, snap twice with your pinky finger. So you're surrounded by art. There are many people in your family that engage in a variety of different kinds of art. Why did you pick visual art? Nova: It was the kind of thing where, like every kid ever, I was a really avid artist and I drew a ton. And it was my comfort thing. And it was always there for me, no matter how hard any of my other interests got. Art was always very reliable for me in that sense. So it was easy for me to lean on and easy for me to invest time into, which therefore made it easier for me to improve. And at this point, it's the most pleasurable thing I can invest my time in. It could have been a lot of other things. My mom's a dancer and I did dance classes for a while when I was younger. And I did violin lessons for eight years. But nothing was as comforting and as familiar to me as visual art. Skipper: Okay, so I heard you talk about how it's dependable. It's something that you can rely on. And how, through the act of making art, you can also see your improvement and the ways in which you level up. Nova: Yeah, that's the cool thing about art is that it's really -- I bet that everyone can say this for every art form that's out there -- but I feel like in art it's really easy to look back and be like, look at me now. Look at me now. I can't believe we used to be there and now I'm here. This is fantastic. Skipper: It's like present tense amnesia. Nova: I guess. I like that. I never thought of it like that. That's cool. Skipper: So when you sit down and start drawing something, how does that start for you? Do you get inspiration from nature, you talked about music. You talked about being part of some niche communities -- are those sources of inspiration for you when you're sitting down to start making something? Nova: I get most of my inspiration from the content I absorb. Skipper: Okay. Nova: As a city kid, I'm currently surrounded by nature for most of quarantine, which we can get into later. And so I'm not used to pulling my inspiration from nature. So instead, I've kind of just thrown myself into whatever content I can, whether that be podcasts, books, TV shows, etc, to really fuel my creative juices. Skipper: Okay. Nova: For example, right now I'm looking at a set of thumbnails that I have planned that are each of them actually inspired directly from all of the different contents that I've gotten into over quarantine, which is funny I have this right in front of me. Skipper: Okay. Nova: But I also pull a lot of my inspiration from my family and my sisters, especially watching them grow up since the youngest of my sisters are four, turning five, and the eldest is 10. So just watching them grow up in front of me is also just extremely inspiring. And I carry a lot of that into my art, I believe. And once I get my inspiration, right now I'm building a concentration on pieces inspired by specific emotions. So I try to narrow down exactly what I'm trying to illustrate to make it easier for myself, then I make a whole bunch of thumbnails, and I get right on into it, dig deep, and get out whatever I need to. Skipper: I think pulling your inspiration from your real life, that feels very authentic to me. And I applaud you for doing that. Because I think that for some people, art can be an escape. Whatever that art form is. So the fact that you're able to glean from your life, these moments and some of these experiences and transfigure them into your work, I think that's wonderful. Nova: Thank you. It's a little bit hard, especially right now with the fact there's not actually a lot going on. But the less that goes on out in the world, the more that kind of goes on in my own head and in our house, it seems. At the same time, there's a void that there used to be a lot more I'd be inspired by just from the city around me and my social life and my friends, and that's lacking. So, I have what's on hand instead, which is everyone trapped in this house with me. Skipper: Sure. So one of the questions that I had sent over to you is around what's different in your world from this year to last year. It sounds to me like your sources of inspiration that you had maybe a year ago are slightly different than the ones that you have now because of the kinetic and busy nature of the city -- lots of information, lots of media. It sounds like some of that tempo has changed for you. Nova: Yeah, it definitely has and it's been a bit of an adjustment. As I said before, I'm a city kid. I mean, raised in Brooklyn and my school is in Manhattan. I used to be surrounded by the city every day -- taking the subway, basically like an hour and a half, walking through Midtown Manhattan, walking through my own neighborhood and being around that constant sort of distinct community. It definitely has a different vibe where I've been staying upstate with my family since March -- since March 13 when quarantine broke out. We've been up here since then. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: I can walk in two directions. And neither of them leads to anywhere in particular. It's just me and the road and the trees. And that's it. So it's definitely a bit of an adjustment going from living in a sensory overload to living in literally the middle of nowhere. It's been tricky, but I think I've gotten used to it. And I think that I'm making the best out of it now. Skipper: Yeah. Have you seen the movie Soul yet? Nova: Yes, I have the art book. Oh, my God, the first time I saw it, I cried. That really hit me hard. Skipper: I love that movie. When you were describing the difference between walking out your front door in upstate versus your journey just to get to school in the city reminds me of that scene -- and hopefully this doesn't give anything away for anyone -- when Joe Gardner has switched bodies with 22. And 22, for the first time is walking out into New York City from the hospital. Nova: Yeah, and it's chaotic. Skipper: And (22) doesn't know what to make of the light, the sounds, everything -- they're seeing things, they're smelling cars, people, etc. It's an overload, right? Nova: Yeah, it is. And it's funny because whenever I go back to the city, a part of me feels that. I feel that sense of overwhelming. I feel the overwhelmingness of the city that I know hits a lot of people who are outsiders, which scares me that I don't view New York as a local as much as I did growing up -- just being out here isolated. But then like 22, you just find those little sparks of joy in the city that make it so lovable and relatable. And so comforting. And that's when I get back into the groove of New York. I'm like, Alright, yeah, this is where I'm meant to be. Skipper: Do you have a favorite medium or a style that you like to work in when you're creating art? Nova: I want to try a lot. I think right now, the easiest medium for me is digital. And I think that over the years, I've been using it, it's become my favorite. But that's not to say, who knows where I'm going to go. But yeah, I really do love digital. It's very accessible. It's very user friendly. I started doing digital art when I was in middle school. And I did it very briefly whenever I could on my dad's computer. And at this point I've been -- after that, I've been doing it straight on. So with five years of experience, I've become really knowledgeable of how to use it, I think. But yeah, I think style wise -- I used to really be into realism. And more photorealistic, especially when I was in late middle school, early high school, and I realized that I had the skills to do very realistic portraiture, and I realized that wasn't out of reach. So I just really hopped on it. And a lot of the work that I did in the first two years of high school was very academic, it was a lot of studies from life, it was a lot of realistic portraiture, me figuring out anatomy, and the best way to structure faces and stuff like that. And I'm very grateful I did that. Because now I'm getting tired of realism. And I feel it's constrictive and I want to be so much more explosive with my art, I want people to feel a certain way when they see it. And I've realized with portraiture that can only go so far for the needs that I want. So I've been going more stylistically and I'm really still figuring out where I want to be, which makes it fun. You know, I'm glad that I haven't settled on anything. I don't feel tied to any style of drawing in particular, I feel that freedom to explore around with my colors and my line work and my medium choice and with my concepts and who I choose to draw. It gives me a lot more freedom that I think every young artist needs -- and every old artist too, everyone needs that freedom. Skipper: Yeah, I think everyone needs that. Yeah. Nova: Yeah, you need the freedom to really give yourself the space to learn how best you like to do art, and to learn -- not to feel constricted by anything that you do, like you have so many years to figure out what you want to do, why not try everything out? Especially in art? You don't have to constrict yourself. Skipper: Yeah.  Nova: I guess I you can describe my style now is a little bit more on the cartoony side. But I wouldn't describe my style like that. I think it's just evolving. I think it's just in the works. Skipper: Yeah. Do you have a project that you think about that stays at the back of your brain? (Something) you really want to do but you haven't, for whatever reason, tackled it yet? Nova: Yes, I have many. My dream -- once I get all my arts education done, I want to work as a sequential artist. More specifically, once I'm older and have more experience, I want to work as a graphic novelist. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And I have this idea for a fantasy/sci fi, the amount of work that I've put into a project that I'm not going to get done for another five to 10 years, it's kind of insane. It takes place on a fictional continent where the concept is, what if there was no imperialism? And what if native tribes from around the world were actually concentrated onto one continent and interacted with each other? And so I've set up different ethnic groups, I have a whole map of the continent, I have plans for language, next thing I have to figure out is politics. I have all the big cities labeled and their functions. And what they trade. I've gotten really deep into world building a project that is not going to happen for a while. But yeah, I would love to do a really complicated fantasy graphic novel at some point in my life, that'd be so much fun. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: Yes. Skipper: So one of the things that you talked about that you enjoy about art is that notion of iteration and improvement. Are you able to look at your previous work as an artist and enjoy it? Or are you someone who looks back at your previous work and is overly critical about what you could have done differently? Nova: I don't think so. I think I have a fondness for my old work, which I think is good. It's better to be fond of it than to be completely repulsed by it. (Laughs) I have an Instagram account that I've been posting my art to, since 2015, and maybe 2014. Honestly, I don't remember. I've been posting on it since middle school and the amount of content that I have archived and deleted is very few. I just want to keep it all up for my entire middle school and high school experience because I think there's value with looking at your old art and looking at what worked and what didn't. And it's funny. It's funny, I can't believe I drew like that. It's very entertaining for me. Yeah, I have -- Right now I'm sitting at my desk and I have a wall that's full of papers and such. And I have a lot of really old drawings. I have a drawing that I'm looking at from eighth grade. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: A couple from sophomore year, one from a couple of weeks ago. One of these is from when I was 12. I think it's really fun to look at your old work. And I think that's also really inspiring because I had some really good ideas when I was younger that I just wasn't able to execute. And now I could take a look at them. I'm like, hmm, let me see what I can do with this. You know, that's really fun. I think I'm a lot more critical of my work from six months ago than I am a couple years ago, because six months ago, I'm like, listen, we're respectable now. And the fact that you drew that, like that, when we are still respectable is a little -- you're on thin ice, but it's okay. I forgive myself in the end. Skipper: I think the forgiveness is the most important part. Nova: Yes. I've tried to be gentle on myself, especially in terms of my art. Skipper: So as you alluded to earlier, you grew up in the city, and you grew up specifically in Brooklyn. But since March of 2020, you and your family have exited the city, and are now upstate. And so part of that was not just relocating domiciles, but it also has to do with your schooling. And you know, without saying where you go to school, because -- Nova: I don't need any stalkers on here! Skipper: Right, exactly. Exactly. I don't think it's important to your story but suffice to say that you attend one of the top fine arts schools in New York City. How has your school life been different? Starting in your all's exit from the city to now being upstate? What does education look like for you? Nova: It's definitely changed over the months as my school slowly realizes what works and what does not work. As you said, I go to a fine arts high school in New York. So the kids who go to my school are not commonly academic leading students theme -- Skipper: Okay. Nova: We're artists, we're not meant to be mathematicians. Okay, so my school has had to do a lot of adjusting to make sure that the kids at my school are able to learn in as best an environment as they can. So at first, all of my classes were asynchronous, which I personally really liked because I'm one of those people -- I'm a very direct learner, you tell me information, I will just understand it, and I will apply it. It's made my educational life very easy for me. And I'm very lucky to be like that. So I was completely fine with the asynchronous learning. And it really worked out for me. But for most kids at my school, it did not. So starting this year, I'm stuck in Zoom classes from 8:30 AM to 2:20 PM. I am just pretty much straight sitting in front of a screen, which isn't cute, to say the least. But it's nice. You feel that sense of community that you get in classes. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And it's nice to hear the teachers' voices. And it's helpful when trying to learn new information. But honestly, it's very unengaging. I really like to learn and up until senior year, I did advanced placement classes like sophomore and junior year. Junior year, I did like three or four. I was in like AP chemistry, I was testing myself. But this year, it's my senior year, and I'm in quarantine. If I have to take a single difficult class, I'm literally gonna pass out. I could not, I genuinely could not. So I got myself out of my math class. I'm a teaching assistant. Instead, I am taking a fun but easy science class. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And I'm not taking any AP's, which was nice in the beginning. But now I am terribly bored. So instead, I'm taking Italian on the side to try to get myself engaged in something. But yeah, school has been very relaxing -- that's not a word that should be applied to school, I think. I believe in having a lax environment but personally, for me, school is very boring. Yeah, which sucks. But I get to call my friends during class, just because we're doing absolutely nothing. That's nice. That feels good. I'm able to do these things I like during school because no one cares anymore. That's nice. I beat (Legend of) Zelda Breath of the Wild while in school. That's how relaxing school has been. Yeah, I think that's pretty good at explaining what my school environment has been. Skipper: That's a pretty succinct sum up, I think. Nova: Yeah. Skipper: So the the notion of doing your school asynchronously last semester -- and the idea is that you were given assignments, but you weren't necessarily required to be on-camera, like "in attendance", for a certain period of time, it was the idea that you would do your work, and you would turn it in. And that would be proof of engagement and learning. Whereas now you're in front of the camera from 8:30 AM to 2:20 PM. And that's the nature of school this semester. Nova: Yeah. I mean, this year, I'm in my -- I don't know what semester I'm in now -- but yeah, if you think I'm tracking school at all, you are misled. Skipper: Which is different than it was last year for you when you were going to school in-person? School was a different experience? Nova: Yeah. Skipper: Okay. Nova: Yeah, it was fun. It was -- I mean, it's high school, I mean how fun can it be? -- but it was still engaging. And that's what was different. And I still feel obligated to do all my work and hand it in on time, because there'd be a teacher standing in front of me and tapping their shoe impatiently if I didn't, you know, having that support system that school gave was fantastic. And I miss it. When I go to college next year, I'm hoping that I can go there in-person and I can regain some of that school experience because I'm really lacking in the classic school experience department right now. Because I got -- I got no prom, I am getting my senior pictures taken next month, which I guess is something but it's gonna be weird. I can tell it's gonna be weird. I wonder if they're gonna be taking a picture mask on or mask off. I'm not gonna have a graduation. It's the senior year things. It'd be cool if I could get some of that. Nova: Yeah. Nova: At this point. I'm like, I'm not asking for much -- just asking to get my diploma and go, that's it. Skipper: As a follow up question, you're graduating in May or June, right? Nova: Yeah. late June, New York public schools go late for whatever reason. Skipper: Okay. Nova: It's depressing. But that's a me problem. Keep on going. Skipper: Okay, so you graduate in late June? What are your plans for school? You talked about the notion of going to university -- and your desire would be for those encounters to be at least hybrid in nature, if not totally in-person because you feel like that's more compelling. And you get more satisfaction and enjoyment out of it. Nova: Yeah. I mean, obviously, my first number one thing I want is to be healthy and to be safe, etc. But to put it very plainly, I'm very tired of the school away from school experience. And I would very much like to end my learning on a good note. And -- Skipper: Sure. Finish strong. Nova: Yeah, yeah. I just finished applying to colleges and I'm getting my first acceptances in right now. Skipper: Congratulations. Nova: Yes, thank you. It certainly is wild. I got into SVA with a pretty hefty scholarship, which is fantastic. Skipper: SVA is a great school. Nova: I know. I'm pumped. And I also just got into Savannah College of Art and Design. Skipper: Oh. Nova: My main schools are RISD, Rhode Island School of Design, and then MICA, Maryland Institute College of Art. Those are my two top ones. I want to stay on the east coast. But I also want to see what's outside of New York -- just a little bit. I love my city so so so much. But I also think that it can be really important for you to get away from home for college. So I'm sticking to a 4-5 hour radius of New York. Or I also have family in California so I'm also looking at some colleges out there. Skipper: Okay. Nova: Something silly -- can I be honest with you, though, about SCAD? Yeah, you don't have to submit a portfolio to get in. I didn't submit my portfolio and I got in. I don't know, I don't get it. It's like a lottery? I don't even know if I submitted my grades. That's the thing, it's very suspicious to me. I'm going to be submitting my portfolio to see if I can get any scholarships. Skipper: Okay. Nova: But I'm sleeping with one eye open, just in case SCAD decides to pull some funny business on me. Skipper: That's interesting, I would have thought that SCAD would have had a portfolio requirement to get in. Nova: That's a bold move not to require the portfolio, guys. Skipper: I wonder if that's a reaction to what's going on right now because I've worked with people who went to SCAD and while we didn't expressly talk about did they submit a portfolio to get in or didn't they submit a portfolio, but I would have imagined that would be a talking point. So I wonder if it's something they're doing right now versus something that they've always done. Nova: Yeah, definitely. I want to hear the explanation. I'm very curious. I want SCAD to know that I got in because I work hard, not just because they were like, Oh, you look cool. I like your name, get you in here, you know -- Skipper: Right. So that tells me a story, though, that you did have a portfolio ready to apply to schools. How did you go about making that portfolio? Nova: I am very lucky to go to a visual arts high school that has me making finished pieces for homework and to also be the kind of person who can't stop drawing at home as well. So finding pieces was very easy because I would look at all the technical pieces that I did at school. And then I looked at all of the creative pieces I did at home. And this past year, we have been doing a sustained investigation for the AP drawing portfolio and so we've had to create a concentration of pieces that let us show our own creativity and our own passions. So I've been using a lot of pieces I've been creating for that portfolio for my college portfolio. So I'm just using all of my resources. Yeah. I'm really lucky though, because I have a friend who did not go to a visual arts school, she lives out of state. And she's also applying to art schools. And she did not have the resources of pieces like I had, and she was producing so many pieces this fall, trying to make it up for that portfolio count. And she was working so hard. So I'm very grateful to have been in a situation that already provided me with enough of my own art for me to build a very solid portfolio. Skipper: Yeah. Well, congratulations on the acceptances that you've already received. And fingers crossed for your other spots. Nova: Yes. Crossing literally every limb in my body, you have no idea. Skipper: So you talked about how, and we'll link to your Instagram in the show notes if you're comfortable with that -- Nova: Yeah, of course. Skipper: So you talked about how you've created this body of work just by opening a social media channel and consistently posting. And I have to say that there's a lot of chatter right now about how bad social media is, or it's not good for you, it saps your attention but you're someone who seems to manage that attention really well. And I always feel very happy when I see that you've posted something because I get to learn a little bit about this thing that you've made and why you've made it and just kind of a peek into your world. How do you manage -- because part of that is you're working on your craft as an illustrator, as an artist, you're working on these things -- how do you manage that with some of the distraction that occurs naturally in the world of social media? Nova: Honestly, can I tell you something you're not going to be expecting? Skipper: Yeah, sure. Nova: I deleted Instagram a month and a half ago. Skipper: Oh, interesting. Nova: Yeah. So I've been on social media, specifically Instagram, for most of -- all of my adolescence pretty much, which is a blessing and a curse. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And I always really loved it. And I have found some of my best friends through Instagram, literally, I found my best friend through Instagram. And I have a fantastic network of connections and Internet friends and people I love from there. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: But it's also, as a young person being on social media, it's really tough. It's really damaging, especially as an artist, because as an artist, you'll post something, and you'll be like, however many likes this gets is how much this is worth, which is bad. Which is not great, especially for a young teenager trying to gain some self confidence in their art. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: So it's something I've grappled with, it's something that I really loved. And I think that quarantine was really the end game, if that makes sense. Skipper: Sure. Nova: Where you can't not be on an Instagram and all social media for the news -- you want to know what's going on with your friends. Nova: Sure. Nova: You want to know what's going on politically. You want to see what everyone is talking about. It just got to be so much. Instagram is always asking for your attention. And it started to feel more like a chore. Nova: Yeah. Nova: And Instagram has set up a lot of policies, with how they disperse the posts and how they show up in your feed that negatively impact artists. It became a toxic place to be. And it was exhausting. And it was addicting. And I couldn't stop going on there. But it just made me feel gross and made me feel nasty. And so one day I was like, okay, there are several things tying me to social media, such as my connection to friends -- my internet friends specifically. That's the one thing really tying me to social media. That's it. But I was like, yeah, how can I get myself out of this? How can I remove myself? So I'm still posting to Instagram. I just do it through a third party app. My best friend manages my account. If I ever need something, she'll help me out. Which is a total blessing. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: And I've been able to distance myself from Instagram and it feels so good. It feels so good. Like the one thing I miss out on is like school drama. So I'll call my friends and I'm like, So what's going on? Like, who's being -- who's being problematic today? Like I'm curious about that side. But aside from that, it's just so freeing and feels really good. Skipper: Okay. Nova: I have a lot more time to do the things that are more important to me, like watch TV and do nothing. Skipper: Important things, for sure. Nova: Yes, it's very worthwhile. But it felt really good. And I hope I can keep away from Instagram for as long as I can. And I want to encourage more kids of my generation to try stepping away because it feels like a weight was lifted. I feel so much better. The only social media that I'm very actively a part of is Tumblr, because it's a smaller community, if that makes sense. And it's a lot less toxic right now. I found it very comforting and chill. But Tumblr can be a wild place to be, depending on what's going on. But right now it's been my home. Skipper: Okay. Nova: Sorry. Io -- Io, stop it. She's crying in the hallway at nothing. I wish she would stop. If she starts again, I'll get Elle to come fetch her but yeah -- Back to business. Skipper: Okay, back to business. I applaud you for recognizing the impact that even something like Instagram -- that you were using for posting your work and interacting with other people -- but that you recognized that it wasn't good for you. And that stepping away is an important thing, at least for right now, right? Nova: I don't want to make assumptions. I wonder if social media is actually very beneficial for a lot of people, or if a lot of people are just very used to the connection, if it's something that people have just gotten complacent in, accepting the downfalls that come with it is in the way that you perceive yourself and the way that you perceive the world. And they're just like, Oh, yeah, this is the way that it is. It doesn't have to be guys, we can still go back to the Stone Age, if we really, really try. We don't have to spend our lives on Twitter, it's okay. Skipper: So I'd love to get into one of our last topics and that has to do with your gender identity. When and or how did you first know that you were meant to be male and not female? And let me check in with you before you answer that question. Is that the most appropriate way to ask that question? Nova: Maybe a better way of saying it is you realize that you didn't identify with your birth gender? Skipper: Okay. Okay. Nova: I think that i think it's just more concise. Skipper: So Nova, when did you realize that you did not identify with your birth gender? Nova: I realized in middle school when I stopped relating to other girls, and I felt a sense of displacement. And where I was socially with how I fit in my school -- Skipper: Okay. Nova: Because my middle school, it was very much boys versus girls. And I had always kind of felt it. But that came to a certain point where I was like, I do not fit in either of these groups. And it was weird and isolating in my brain. And I didn't come out to my parents until the summer between eighth and ninth grade, or maybe the spring of that year. And then, over that year, I got my first chest binder, the year after I started attending gender therapy, and it was late sophomore year that I realized that I didn't identify as non binary, as I previously assumed, but I identified as trans masculine or as a trans male. Skipper: Okay. Nova: It's definitely been a process. Because it wasn't very fast. Some people realize when they're like four years old. And that wasn't it for me. There was a lot of hints that came from when I was younger, that's like, Wow, yeah, I'm definitely trans. I cannot believe that I didn't think that for a very long time. Skipper: Okay. Nova: Yeah, it was definitely a bit of a longer process. And I'm probably not done with that process, either. We'll see where the winds take me, I guess. Skipper: Yeah. So you just threw out some terminology there, like the notion of non binary or trans male. And I know that there's a fair amount of vocabulary in this world that many people may not be familiar with. Can you break down what are the two differences between someone who's non binary and someone who's trans male? Nova: Yeah, I think that there could be a lot of trans people that may disagree with me on this. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And I am not a professor in trans studies but this is me viewing the trans community from multiple perspectives, and talking to other trans friends, this is the information that I've culminated. So there is a spectrum and transgender identity -- you're either binary or non binary. Binary trans people include trans women or trans men, who very clearly they know they are a trans woman or a trans man, they know they are. While non binary fits everything in between, for people who are like, I don't know, I feel like both of them, I feel like none of them, I'm not sure where it lands in between, I wish I was something else, obviously not like a different object, but -- Those identities that aren't trans woman and trans male, all of those identities lie in non binary. You're not conforming. You, your identity lies beyond the heteronormative gender binary, or cisnormative. Skipper: Okay. Nova: Being non binary lands anywhere between identifying as cis and identifying as trans. Cis standing for cisgendered, which means not being trans for people who are not familiar with that terminology. Yeah, I have some friends who present as cisgendered, they dress and they socially present as if they are cisgendered but they are non binary in their brains. And you can say that there are also some binary trans people who are stuck acting or dressing or behaving like the sex that they were born with. And that happens all the time. But I think that non binary people have a huge spectrum in the way that they present, in the way that they identify, and even the pronouns they use, it can be a wide spectrum. And I feel that scares a lot of older generations, which is why there's a stigma behind trans and non binary people, because they're scared of letting kids identify in the ways that are not typical to them. But it's okay, that's okay. I wish there was a better way to resolve that. But, you know, let these teenagers identify as whatever they want. Let these adults identify as whatever they want. There's even senior citizens who are like, I'm non binary. I'm like, you are so sick, you are so cool. I'm so glad that there are people out there like you. Skipper: So what are the some of the things that since you have been working with this in your life, and now that you know you are trans male -- what are some of the things that you've struggled with along the way? Nova: Definitely, with expression of gender, as a trans person, something that a lot of trans people feel is something called dysphoria, which is that feeling that you are not in the right place. That's a weird way of describing it, but it's the repulsion of your own sex or the way that you present your sex, and the euphoria that comes with identifying as anything else. Skipper: Okay. Nova: So the way that my dysphoria controls me, is very much in the social sense, where I feel most dysphoric and unhappy with the way that I was born. When I'm in a social situation and I'm being viewed upon by others -- in private, my body and my voice and all that comes with it doesn't bother me as much. But once I'm in a social situation, and I'm surrounded by any number of people, I'm very, very self conscious. So unlearning the toxic masculinity that can come with being a trans male, where you feel repulsed by all things feminine just because they're feminine and they remind you of who you used to be. That can be really strong. And I think that it's important for trans men to know that it's okay to be feminine. And the same messages that are being spread to boys and young men now, to express your feminine side should also be spread to young trans masculines, young trans males, or trans guys, because it's important for us to hear too, and I want to, oh, I would love to grow my hair out. But it makes me unhappy. But I'd love to be in a position one day or one year, to be able to grow my hair out and have awesome long hair, and to wear whatever I want. Like, that'd be awesome. I just keep on tending to my little confidence growth in my brain and try to build up some of that some of that juice I need. Skipper: Has part of that been for you -- and I know it's hard to separate our present tense context from another reality, right? -- if the pandemic didn't come down around our ears, and the novel coronavirus, and all of those things, and you weren't doing school remote and left Brooklyn, this environment that you had come to know very well over the course of your childhood -- do you think that your development in this way would have been any different? Nova: Probably, I'm grateful for quarantine for several reasons. When I was in school, I was in a kind of tough social situation. So quarantine was almost like a saving grace because no one had to talk to each other anymore. And you didn't have to worry about all that stupid high school stuff. You know, I think that if I was in school, my path to more emotional maturity would have been a very different one than the one I was led down now. Because going through quarantine is a lot of self introspection and learning about yourself and learning about others through that same way. And I imagine that if I was still in school, I would have the same sense of emotional maturity, but it would have just come around in a very different way -- through interacting with others and learning how to resolve conflicts in healthy ways. And learning how to get through tough social situations without feeling like they're giving up, you know. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: I would have grown up either way. But the way that I did, I don't know -- I'm grateful. Being in quarantine sucks but there's also a lot of good things that came out of it for me as well. So at the end of the day, I'm happy. I wish these dogs would shut their mouths so -- Skipper: Having the dogs in the background are a reminder that you know, our lives, many people's lives -- not everyone's but many people's lives -- exist in these sort of bottled up way, right? We're at home. We've got dogs barking around us. And so you know if that's the kind of punctuation that we get in our conversation, I think it's all good. Nova: Yeah, I live with five people and several large animals. This is the way that it goes. Nothing I can control. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: Yeah. Skipper: So I saw something on your Instagram and it was a few months ago about how so many transgender folks have died, attempted suicide or otherwise suffered. Can you talk a little bit about that, because I'm not sure that everyone who's listening might be aware of -- because we do live in a world where things are different than they were 10, 20, 30 years ago but there are some things that I don't think are changing as quickly as some people might like. And I think some of the ways in which transgender folks have been treated might be one of those places. So can you talk a little bit more about that? Nova: Yeah, the trans community is a vibrant and it's a fantastic place, but it's also burdened by a lot of trauma and grief. There is an insane amount of violence put against trans women, specifically trans women of color over... Gosh. (Sighs) It's unfortunate and I feel that it's not talked about enough, especially in our current political climate. But I'm gonna just read out some information. I got this -- Skipper: And we'll link to in the show notes as well. So that way people have a visual indication as well but I'd love to hear you talk about it. Nova: Yeah, some of this information is from Stonewall, which is a British LGBTQ rights charity from some early 2010s studies. And the studies report that four out of five young trans folks have experienced verbal abuse. One out of four young trans folks have attempted suicide. And nine out of 10 young trans people have thought about it -- which is just insane. That's insane to me. them.us reported that at least 350 trans people were killed globally in 2020. And a majority of those folks were people of color or sex workers. And there's a lot, a lot of violence against trans women of color, trans men of color, and gender non conforming people of color. It's a terrible, terrible shame. And it's something that I don't think the world openly cares too much about. And I wish they did, because I think over 45 of those people died in the U.S. this year, a handful of them in New York, it's just such a shame. And the youngest one was like 15 or 17. Like, that's crazy. It's mainly just young trans woman who are being killed. And it's such a shame, and I'm sorry if this is triggering to any trans people listening to this, it's just something that I feel like the cis community needs to be more aware of, and to provide support and funding to organizations that benefit trans people of color, trans people, generally, non binary people, and LGBTQ people. It's so important that there are safe places for trans women of color right now, especially right now with the white supremacists. And just all the hate that's going on in America right now. It's really, really important for trans women, trans people, trans people of color, to understand that they are needed, they are wanted, they are worthy, and they deserve safety. Skipper: 100%. Those are unfortunate statistics. And one thing that I wanted to point out as well — and plus one to the notion that you just talked about, I hope that this is not doesn't cause someone to feel badly, that it brings back some previous encounter that they may have had, that it might be triggering or anything like that -- but this number year over year has actually increased. Nova: It has. Literally, people are calling it like a genocide against the trans people. It's really unfortunate. And the only -- I was finding statistics, something I could bring up, and the only people that are talking about it are trans based organizations and stuff like that. This is the kind of stuff that ends up on like CNN once a year, once every two years. It's a shame, it's a shame, I wish that more people were conscious of it. It's really disappointing. Skipper: What are the things that folks who aren't necessarily transgender but exist in the cis world, what can we do to help transgender folks feel more comfortable to be themselves? Nova: Normalize trans-ness as much as possible, whether that's investing time into reading articles and books by trans people, or if it's spending time in your community talking to trans people, or if it's telling your kids about trans people and that it's okay, and normalizing the fact that it's okay to be trans and it's not taboo, and it's not something uncommon. One, I was reading about this -- I'm gonna try to find the source for you later -- I read that one out of every 200 people identifies as trans or gender non conforming, which is a really big jump. They used to think it was like one out of 100,000 people, but as being transgender is slowly being more normalized, more people are identifying as trans and realizing who they are and the more that it is accepted by the public, the more that it's going to be easier for the trans community to be safe and to be heard. I was talking to my therapist the other day, and he's also trans. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And we were talking, and I was like, I have never read a book, or watched a movie, or watched a show that had a protagonist, that was like me -- especially in books, you and try to find any books about trans masculine youth, or trans masculine people at the center, it's very, very difficult. And it's a shame, I've never felt fully represented in work like that. And I can't even imagine how hard that is for trans people of color, even less representation. It's just fully a shame. And I think it's very important to uplift trans voices, trans people of color voices, non binary voices, and to show people that we're people too. And we have important things to say, and this isn't as small as a community as you think. And you may know people who are trans, you may have passed them in the street, you may have ordered your coffee from them, and they may have not even known. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: And that's okay. Trans people don't owe you any sort of explanation for how they transition and their process and such, etc. Skipper: Yeah. Nova: I was looking up information. And I looked up how many trans people -- and then I was looking at the Google search results. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And instead of the results being, how many trans artists are out there, or like, how many trans people do this, do that -- the two immediate searches underneath were, how many trans people de-transition? That was it. People only care about trans stories often when it turns out that they were actually cis. A lot of people want to hear about the trans people who realized that this wasn't the path for them. And they de-transitioned and now identify as their birth sex. And those stories come first. And it's extremely alienating as a trans person to have found your identity and the community around you while the cis community only seems interested in putting doubt in your identity and being like, well, what if you're faking it? What if you did de-transition? Skipper: What if you're wrong, yeah. Nova: You know, it's a very wild thing, and I think that the cis community really focuses on a lot, instead of actually reading and uplifting the stories of trans people and their identity, because there's so many more trans people who are stable and happy in their identities than there are trans people who have de-transitioned. Skipper: That's a really good point, I definitely haven't paid attention to that, because that's not something that I have searched for on the Internet at large. But that's a very telling detail if some of those quick autofill results are about how someone may de-transition. There's something very powerful in that. And I'm not exactly sure what it is but I think that you encapsulated it really well. Nova: I mean, when you're a young trans person, all you can really think about is, What if I'm faking it. You know, it's not exactly making you feel better if that's like the main search result. You're just like, Jesus, okay. Yeah. Skipper: So I appreciate you talking about all of the topics that we've talked about but I want to make sure that we leave room and space for something that we might have missed. So is there something that we haven't talked about yet that you want to get into? Nova: I want to talk about mental health for a second. Because I think that a lot of people have struggled with their mental health over quarantine, me included. And it's been really tricky during this super isolating time to be dealing with stuff like that. And I just hope anyone out there who's listening who has gone through relapses during quarantine, or who have gone through really dark and negative thoughts, or people who have just been through it, you know, I really hope that all you guys are okay. I hope that you get the help that you need. And you are very much needed and loved in this world. And I think that is something that I want to make sure everyone knows because it's been a really mentally trying couple of months. And it can be hard dealing with mental health stuff during this period of time because you want to make sure all the attention is given to people who are going through medical health issues with COVID. And you want to make sure that their stories are being told. But there's a lot of people out there, and for the past couple of months, who have been going through a really rough time, and I hope that they all understand that you guys are seen and I get it, it's really, really tough. But we're gonna make it through. And it's gonna be okay. Skipper: This has been an incredible change in our society at large. You described this a little bit earlier in our conversation where you talked about that fatigue you feel about remote school or being away from where you've grown up, you've been taken out of the city. And so that's a big change for you as well. You don't have access to friends and all the pieces of your family. It's really challenging. And I think that if someone is struggling right now, they should reach out to people that they trust, or a mental health professional, if they feel like that's in their capacity to work through some of these things. Nova: Yeah. And just as a little tip, I really recommend, if anyone is out there feeling super lonely and isolated right now, set up like a virtual night for your friends. It's not too late. Over all of quarantine, every single week, I have called two of my school friends and we've watched movies. And it's been the best thing for my mental health, just feeling -- it just reminds you that you're not as isolated as you feel you are and this time won't last forever. And it's just such a reminder of how important friends are. I really do recommend it. It's so much fun. And it gives you a chance to really talk about everything that you're feeling and everything that's going on. Skipper: So, at 17 years old, what's one of the most important lessons that you've learned so far in your life? Nova: I've had to realize how important it is for me to be there for myself, I'm gonna be living in my own brain for the rest of my life. So I have to be friends with myself before it's me against the world. Yeah, I've been my own best companion these past couple of months. And I'm -- despite how tough quarantine has been -- I am grateful for learning how cool I am to hang out with in my own head. Me, myself, and I just sitting around in my brain, sitting around a campfire. That's how it feels. Skipper: I think self acceptance is important. And being comfortable with yourself is also super important. So that's a really good reminder for anyone who's listening. So Nova, what's something that you're excited about right now, like something that you're watching or listening to? There's something that you talked about in your intro that you're into music, but we didn't get into much of it in terms of our conversation, what are things that are top of mind for you in terms of media you're consuming or things that you're really enjoying? Nova: I have been binge watching the show Criminal Minds for the past two months. I started in late November, and now I'm on season 12. So I've been -- Skipper: Wow, there are 12 seasons? Nova: I've basically been averaging a season a week. There's 15 seasons in total. I'm going to have to get like a Hulu one month free thing so I can see the last couple of seasons, but it's going to be worth it. I've been completely obsessed. I've -- also over quarantine -- I have been a huge podcast listener, which makes this so much fun for me. My two favorite podcasts are My Brother, My Brother and Me by the McElroy Brothers, which is a comedy podcast where they take users questions and answer them. And it is so funny. It is my favorite thing. A new episode comes out every week and it's literally my comfort of all comforts. I love them a lot. And there's so many episodes, I'm getting through them all. It's -- I play video games and I listen to them. I wash the dishes and I listen to them. I cook and I listen to them. Literally, the McElroys run my life. And another podcast that I'm into is very different -- it is the horror anthology podcast called the Magnus Archives. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And it is so good. If anyone wants that... good ol' British library feeling. I've been absolutely obsessed with it since the summer. Listen to it multiple times over. It is absolutely fantastic. It's ending soon so if you want to hop on the train to listen to it, now is the time before it's over. It's got 10 more episodes and it's done. I've turned into such a podcast nut. Skipper: Well then I think it's really fitting that we're having this conversation on a podcast then. Nova: Yeah, exactly. It's like this is a dream come true. I can't believe it. I made it. I made it into the podcast world. But music wise -- if anyone wants to know what I'm listening to -- my current favorite artist right now is Orla Gartland, who is an Irish singer. She is coming out with some new music and is fantastic. Another favorite music artist of mine is Dodie, who is a British songwriter. She follows me on Instagram and we're basically best friends. No, but her music is absolutely fantastic and she's been a huge inspiration for me since middle school. So if you haven't listened to her guys, I recommend it. Those have been my fixations. Skipper: Okay, and we'll link to them in the show notes so that way people can find it easier. In case -- Skipper: Yeah, of course. Skipper: -- we've lost something in the audio. So Nova where can people find out more about you? Nova: You can follow me on Instagram. If you want to see the art I create it's noviart. I'm most active on my Tumblr, which is stinkoboy and that's where I reblog anything I find funny or interesting. Skipper: Okay. Nova: And you can also find my art on Tumblr at noviarts, same thing as Instagram, but with a 'S' at the end. Skipper: I see. Nova: Yeah. Skipper: Well, thanks again for making time today, Nova. I really enjoyed our conversation. Skipper: Yeah, thank you so much. This is so fun and awesome. I'm really honored to be here. Nova: And thank you for listening to How This Works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app. And while you're there, leave us a review. This is our very first season and if you could, tell just one other person about the show and why they should listen. You can find How This Works at howthisworks.show -- it's three words no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media happens. I hope that you learned as much from my conversation with Nova as we had in making it. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Nova: I'm going to answer that but I haven't -- I think I have another dog coming in the room. And she's a lot bigger and she can be a lot noisier. And if she's going to get on the bed, it's going to make a big noise. I'm hoping she just sits. Skipper: Sure. Nova: Come on baby, get yourself on the floor. Skipper: So you have Ayashe and Io in the room? Nova: Yeah. And I have Comet -- who's my cat. They're all in here because I'm the oldest member of the family in the house right now. So they're just like, Oh, dang, we gotta protect the big one. So I have my groupies with me. You're asking about my process, right? Skipper: Yeah. Nova: And how I get inspired? Skipper: Yeah. How do you get inspired? How do you start?