[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson. I'm a design director in San Francisco. And thanks for tuning in to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about subjects that they know extremely well. Nicolai Lipscomb is here to talk to us today about being a chef, something he knows a lot about. So Nicolai, thanks for being here. Nicolai Lipscomb: Thank you, very excited to chat about this. This is exciting. Skipper: Nicolai, break it down. Who are you? How would you introduce yourself if you were at a party if there was a thing right now? Nicolai: (Laughing). At a party? I'm from the peninsula, which is between Santa Cruz and San Francisco, a small town called Loma Mar. So I'm from a very small town and I grew up there. It's a town of about 103 and then I commuted to school in Half Moon Bay. So -- Skipper: And that's in the state of California, just for people who may not be familiar with -- Nicolai: I grew up in Half Moon Bay. And, you know, that's kind of the first 18 years of my life. Right after that, I went to college and studied engineering for a while. And then I became a chef and did that for about 20 years. I also became a father about five years ago. So that's a big part of who I am and I got married about seven years ago. So definitely a husband as well. Combination of a father, husband, chef, a Christian, also a Taoist -- Skipper: A lot of things. So what's something that people may not guess about you, something that you feel comfortable sharing? Nicolai: I'm a pretty candid, open-book type of person. I think the thing that a lot of people don't know about me that is kind of interesting is -- a lot of motorcyclists share it, a lot of people that jump out of airplanes share it and -- it's that we don't feel normal, like the rest of people because we need to go to a certain extreme. We need chaos in our lives, intense chaos to let out endorphins. And so what that creates, riding a motorcycle really fast makes me feel normal. While it scares other people, you know, scares me in the second but afterward, I feel a sense of calm or sense of peace. You know, I meditate and I definitely can get that sense of calm, but it's different. Like there's the endorphins aren't there; like the meditation's more of like a mental thing where the endorphins feel like it's more of a body thing. Skipper: Like you can't get enough -- Nicolai: And so like being cooped up right now in COVID is tough because I am not out there getting stressed. I'm -- feels more safe, which I don't like. Makes me feel unsettled. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: So that's, that's kind of something that a lot of people don't know. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Actually how I found out about it as I was on my motorcycle in 2005, doing a cross-country trip. I did three months of just riding around and I was at this hostel in Tofino, which is on Vancouver Island, and a gal that was staying at the hostel as well, we went and got like a smoothie or something. And we're hanging out on the beach. And she was telling me about skydiving, she was a big skydiver. And she's kind of the one that you know, when somebody is talking to you, and they, they tell you something, and it's like, Whoa, you just gave me insight about myself. I'd never been able to explain it. So she's kind of the one that explained it to me. And she said, you know, most likely you have what a lot of skydivers have, what a lot of people have, and it made a lot of sense. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And so the next day when I was going down to Victoria (British Columbia), which was south in the Nanaimo, there's a bridge you can bungee jump off of, she told me that bungee jumping actually releases more endorphins, because you see the ground coming at you. So it scares you more than skydiving. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: She's like, Yeah, you should try it. You should try bungee jumping and see what it does for you. I did it. And you know, when they're when you're standing up there, you're looking down and they're like, Do you want to go in the water or not? I was like, Oh yeah. Put me in the water. And so I did it. And oh, man, I rode my motorcycle slow, which isn't something like in my nature, like I get on it and I just jam. And I remember like, it was like half-hour riding afterward and I'm just like, going slower than the speed limit and then I kind of like, Whoa, this is the most I've ever felt at peace. Like, I feel so good. And it was true. I got the endorphin high. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And it just felt so incredible. And I haven't done it since. I want to definitely do it again. But yeah, so -- Skipper: Hmm. I have so many questions. I'm really curious, we generally have been in some version of quarantine for the last eight or nine months, what have you found while you're in this state that achieves some of that, that you have found before by bungee jumping or motorcycle riding? Or things like that? Nicolai: Sadly, I haven't. Skipper: No? Nicolai: Yeah. It's a struggle. It's a big struggle for someone like me. Yeah. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: I mean, it's why I like being a chef. It's if you look at like a lot of what I do and how I tick, it's kind of like, throw me into the fire and I feel good. It's weird like a room can erupt at restaurants there, they always get chaotic, restaurants are in a constant state of chaos. So like, as a chef, a big part of what you're doing is always putting them back in order. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And assuring people that everything will be okay. And so the crazier things get, the more I feel normal, the more I get more focused. I mean, you're moving fast. And you're thinking really, really fast. But that stress and pressure make me feel better because my mind can focus on one thing and focus intensely on it. And it kind of goes back to that same thing. Like I need that. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: That intensity. Skipper: So let's actually get into that. Nicolai, what is the thing that we had planned to talk about today? What is that thing that you consider yourself very well versed? Nicolai: Definitely, being a chef. Absolutely. And restaurants as a whole, you know, I know restaurants in and out because I've been so deeply entrenched in them and passionate about them, which I'm sure as a designer, I'm sure you've heard like how our brains they work so much better when you engage creativity and you're interested in them. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: I've always been interested. Skipper: That's great. Nicolai, can we rewind? Not just to your college days when you were studying engineering, and I don't remember exactly how you described it, but this notion of cooking in general, and eventually this idea of becoming a chef, can you talk a little bit about how you discovered cooking? What was inspiring about it? Nicolai: Yeah, absolutely. So cooking, I discovered when I was probably about seven or eight, do you remember Eggo waffles, and how popular they were then? And how much they advertised them? Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Well, my mom wouldn't buy Eggo waffles because she knew they were full of junk. Skipper: They're terrible. They're absolutely terrible. Nicolai: They're made out of junk. I mean, a lot of packaged food is, right? Skipper: Yes. Nicolai: My mom definitely was on the -- it's funny because back then, it was like, she was super strict but he looked at it nowadays -- and they're like, man, she was dead on with what she was. And, you know, as a kid, you're like, I'm never gonna do this with my kids. And now it's like, I'm even more strict. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: But yeah, I wanted Eggo waffles. So I would make waffles and we would have 20-30 waffles all around my kitchen cooling on chopsticks, on cookie racks, on anything because you had to call the bottom, right? So you had to have them -- Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: A little bit high. And my mom would come in and just be like, What are you doing? I was like seven or eight. And I'd be making my own Eggo waffles. And I would wrap them up and I freeze them. And then throughout the week, I would pop them in the toaster and have some waffles in the morning before school. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And, you know, that's when I started cooking, and I just wanted him so bad. And so when I was in college, you know, fast forward, I guess, you know, 11-12 years. I was ah -- I've always -- I hate working on things that don't have a purpose. And so when you're in college, it's like, what degree for what career? You know, that's like the big question. Skipper: Yes. Nicolai: And you think outside of college -- Skipper: A + B = career. Yeah. Nicolai: Right. And it's so I never thought it'd be in a chef. It wasn't even on the table. It was like, okay, you know, I went to school for finance, because I was always good with money. So it was like, okay, finance. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And then I started doing that. I was like, This is awful. I don't like this. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And then I took -- I didn't switch majors -- but I tried psychology. I loved it. And then I asked the teacher what kind of jobs I could get. And he told me and I was like, That sounds awful. I love the subject, but the kind of careers you could get was just not for me. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And then I started engineering because I loved math. I love building things. And I talked to -- I was waiting tables at the time -- and I talked to a guy that was probably like in his 70s or 80s and probably retired for 20-30 years by that point. He was telling me about electrical engineering and I'm like, Oh, that's the perfect career. That sounds great. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: I changed my major. I spent a year doing engineering classes -- Calc III, and computer programming class came about and I hated it. Like, just hated it. And so I went to, I found an engineer, I knocked on their door, and they thought I was there for like an internship. They're like, we don't internships. I'm like, No, no, no, I just need to know if all this work is worth it. And I like sure can you can hang out with me. So I went hung out with him for three days. And I found out this isn't for me, it's all on computers now. It's not what the older guy explained to me. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: It's changed. The older guy described circuit boards and going out working on them and then when I found out was computer-based -- Skipper: Like, physically building things -- Nicolai: Yeah, it was more physical but very technical -- Skipper: Intricate and yeah -- Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so I really liked that. And then when it was on the computer, I can't sit there and computer program like, I was going nuts doing C++. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Maybe Java. And so I was doing kind of the classic whining to mom moment, like, What am I gonna do? It's like three years. I now have engineering classes. I don't know if I want to be an engineer. And my mom was the one that like, she just really wanted me to go to college. It was funny -- the side story is, I was a sophomore. And they're like, Hey, Nick, if you go to college, we'll buy you a car. I was so independent at that time that I actually already had college applications filled out like it was either sophomore or junior, right whenever you're doing that. Awesome. I just got a car. Skipper: "Something I'm already doing." Nicolai: Yeah, it was great. So they ended up buying me a car. And I was like, Haha, I was already applying. And so they really wanted me to go to college. So if anybody else would have said it, I probably would have dismissed it. But when mom said, Why don't you look into being a chef? You've always liked cooking. The memory is so vivid, like, I can tell you the car, I can tell you where I was driving, I can tell you the weather. It was like my It was like, everything. All the visuals just spun in a circle. And then I was like, Wow. Yes. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Chef. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Chef, look into that. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so I was going to school in Sacramento. So I went around Sacramento and I interviewed different chefs. And I said, How do you become a chef? And I was 19. One of them asked me, You know. Hey, you like beer? Of course, I like beer. And so he sat me down at the bar, and we drank a couple of beers and he broke it down for me. And he's said you can go to school and then get a job. You can go get a job. Or you can be an apprentice and then get a job. And he's like, you know, no matter what you do, if you go to school or be an apprentice, that's just to kind of get you primed to start learning. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so I ended up taking a bussing job there. Skipper: Same restaurant? Nicolai: Same restaurant. Yeah, he didn't have a spot in the kitchen. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: But he's like, Hey, if you want and so I was waiting tables, I was going to school and I was like, Yeah, why not? So I started bussing there. And he would have me come in the kitchen every now and then. The first thing he had me do was slice a deli ham. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And I sliced the whole deli ham and I didn't know that there was a wrapper on it. And so I had to go through every slice. Like -- Skipper: It's like the ribbon on salami, right? When you buy it? Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: (Laughing.) Nicolai: You idiot. So, you know, I was there and I was like, Okay, I want to be an apprentice. I don't want to pay for school. You know, I don't want to go try something again and end up in debt. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: You know, already owe on college. So I was like, okay, apprenticeship. And my aunt lived in Sacramento and I was close to her so she was helping me look and figure this out, how do you become a chef thing out. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: She saw a PBS special with a chef named Barbara Lynch on it. And so I was like, okay, Barbara Lynch. Sounds great. I started looking into her. And you know, at the time, I thought, I didn't know what a good restaurant was. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Nicolai: Like, you know, looking back man, Crazy ignorant to what a good restaurant was. And calling -- so what I did is as I wanted to, I wanted a job. How do I do it? Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So I started calling Barbara Lynch. Well, I called originally and I said, Hey, you know, I got a hold of her, she was in the kitchen. They transferred me. They said, Hey, when are you free? When's a good time to talk? She said, Tuesdays, I'm always here. You know, between service. Nicolai: Okay. Skipper: So -- And that's between like lunch service and dinner service. Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Right. Between basically like lunch ends, you know, okay, around two, and then dinner picks up at five. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: So I'd call her at three o'clock every Tuesday until she'd pick up the phone and she'd be like, Hey, Nick. Skipper: She just knew it was you... okay. Nicolai: Hi chef. Is there anything -- And after doing that for three months, she's like, I'm gonna be in California. Why don't you come by, I'll be in Sonoma doing a demo. There was a documentary made about her. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so they were showing it -- I think it's like Jack London park or something like that. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: So she was doing a demo outside and I showed up in like, a full suit. I'm pretty sure I had blue hair at the time. I think I had an eyebrow ring and, you know, the bars of in my ear. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And she's just like, Who the hell is this kid? Blue hair? Suit? Like, I sat down and I interviewed her. And just like, you know, she asked me some questions, but I had so many questions, right? So I was just like, what books do I need to read? What are, you know, what does it mean to become a chef? Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You know, I'm looking into it. And there are no degrees for a chef. Like, how do you know when you're a chef? Skipper: Sure. Nicolai: She answered all these questions. And in the end, she said if you can get to Boston, I'll have a job for you. Skipper: Okay, so Boston is where she was -- okay. Nicolai: She was in Boston. And so I moved back there with I think, $1800, you know, I bought like a futon for a couple of hundred bucks. And I showed up and she's like, Well, sure, you got a job. And so I started prepping in the back and grinding it out. But that's kind of where I got my start. And she ended up the next year winning a James Beard award. So it was like, a very intense year -- a very important year -- leading up to one of her biggest moments, which was, you know, winning that James Beard award. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: She ended up promoting me a year after to open as her opening sous chef to her second restaurant, which was just insane. Skipper: Wow. Nicolai: Because I did not know what I was doing. I just I worked like -- I just worked and worked and work to kind of makeup -- but that's what I wanted. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You know, I wanted to be -- I wanted to learn, and that's how you do it. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Just get thrown in the fire and your body starts getting in the muscle memory, you know, you start learning and the more intense it is, the quicker you learn it. Skipper: Sure. The 10,000 hours paradigm or some version of it. Nicolai: I don't know that one. What's that one? Skipper: Oh, Malcolm Gladwell talks about this in Blink, his book Blink. Nicolai: Oh, yeah, I love Blink. Okay. Skipper: So he talks about like, 10,000 hours of mastery, is really what it takes to be an expert. One of the examples that he gives is when the Beatles before they ever released their first record, when they were playing in Hamburg, Germany -- and they were playing in, you know, seedy nightclubs, or strip bars, depending on who you talk to, and they would just play around the clock, right? Taking breaks to go crash out for a couple of hours. But literally, they played for something like, you know, eight to 12 hours a day. And they did this for like, a couple of years before they ever got a recording contract. So, that's one of the examples that he brings up of someone spending that time really, like doing the work in order to gain the expertise. Nicolai: It's awful. I read that book and I don't remember that. Skipper: I think it's Blink. Or is it his other book? It was one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, but yeah -- Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: Well, anyway, how old were you when you move to Boston? Nicolai: I think I just turned 21. Skipper: 21, okay. Nicolai: I kind of think I was like, 21 in a couple of months. Skipper: Okay. So 21 Sacramento. Nicolai: In Sacramento. Yeah, it was that summer. Skipper: So you moved to Boston, you're 21 you're there with Barbara Lynch. The following year, she wins a James Beard award, which is huge in the culinary world. And then you opened as a sous chef in her second restaurant, how much longer did you stay in Boston? Did you go to Spain right after that or -- Nicolai: I spent three years with Barbara and I spent a year at No 9 (Park). Okay, a little less than a year at B&G oysters, which was her second restaurant, she opened two -- B&G Oysters and Butcher Shop right across the street from each other. It was -- Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: It's such a cool experience. Skipper: So No 9, B&G Oysters, and Butcher Shop -- Nicolai: Yeah, the restaurants have changed so much -- and then I went back to No 9 because, you know, I really craved learning to cook, okay, and, you know, starting to manage because I was there and I just wanted to cook so she had me come over and I worked every station and then close to finishing up there, I started talking to her about, Hey, what's next? Because I had gotten an apprenticeship with her. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And I was her first apprentice, you know, so like, it wasn't just a job. It was like, What should I do next? What should I read or should I be doing? Skipper: So, mentoring as well. So it wasn't just like the paycheck and the experience, but it was also about the guidance. Nicolai: Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know anyone. So I was 100% immersed in cooking, which is, I mean, what you really have to do to become good at anything. And so yeah, so she was in a European -- well, I don't know if it was European, it started in Europe, but it was women chefs group -- Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And she was the only American in it. And in that group was Anne-Sophie Pic and Elena Arzak -- some amazing chefs. And Spain was, like, I really wanted to go to Spain. So, because she knew Elena, you know, I wrote a letter, and then a friend of mine helped me translate it into Spanish. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And, and culturally changed it for me. She understood the culture there and you know, how to speak to write, to appease, you know, getting the -- Skipper: Be respectful and -- Nicolai: Yeah, so I wrote it in English. And she helped me in Spanish. Yeah, I sent those two letters. And so then I got a phone call. And, you know, they accepted me into their program and they actually are paired up with the school so they do a year-long program and so it's free. So from Boston, that's when I jumped on my motorcycle, rode across the country. And, you know, did that for three months, and then I lived with my brother so I could save money. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so I just worked and saved. And, you know -- Skipper: And this is back in California? Nicolai: In California, yeah. Northern California. My brother's there then. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And yeah, saved a bunch of money, shot back (to Spain) and started cooking. And you know, the rent in San Sebastian, which is just a gorgeous city, and it's funny because they go there and like their rent was like, I think it was like 180 for a room. How's it so cheap? Just traveled on the weekends. And, you know, they would close for a couple of weeks. So there's, there's a lot of traveling and then afterward, I took three months and traveled and while I was there, I went and ate at a restaurant called El Celler de Can Roca. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And, you know, you're back there working -- and there's, the way a lot of the Spanish restaurants work then was there'd be a few paid people and the rest would be interns. Skipper: Oh, interesting. Nicolai: That's how they could do such amazing food. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so there was just a great community at Arzak, I think we would do 150 covers, which was insane for three Michelin (star) restaurant to be doing 150 covers at the service -- Skipper: What is 100? What does a cover mean? Nicolai: A person. Skipper: Oh, I see. Nicolai: Yeah, we call them covers. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: It's like 150 people we fed. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And that's, that's a lot for three Michelin restaurant. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And there's 30 of us in the kitchen, though. Skipper: Wow. Nicolai: So, you know, it's just a good community. It's almost like being in school or something where there's just so many different people, you know, you get along with a lot of them. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Some you don't get along with. It was fun. It was a lot of fun. I think I was, I think it was like a 25 by then. 25, 26 when I did that, and a lot of them were, you know, younger kids. So as I was a little bit older, and I had a lot of experience from cooking with Barbara. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: In between that, I actually opened up a restaurant in California. So I had experience of doing that. And then while I was there, I ate at El Celler de Can Roca because the chefs were just, you know, it's kind of like, there's a buzz. Everybody's talking about restaurants, you know, if you're in that world, and El Celler de Can Roca was the place I went, had a meal there and it blew me away as best meal I've ever had. Skipper: Wow. Nicolai: And so of course, it was like, Okay, this is where I want to work. And so I ended up traveling for three months. And then I get back to Spain. And I go to Girona (Catalonia, Spain) where El Celler de Can Roca is, and they'd just closed for a holiday for like, I think it was like three weeks. Like, are you kidding me? So what did I do, I went, and got an apartment and in Bolonia which is a little town on the Mediterranean, and I just hung out for a few more months. And, you know, I went back and asked for a job. And they're like, Yeah, definitely. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: You know, this is the busy season, you know, we can pay you then. I was like, okay, so I went I came back to California. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Yeah, I stayed with my brother again, you know, and then went back and worked at Can Roca, and that was again, just an unbelievable experience. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Wow. Skipper: What's something that you learned in that period of time that not a lot of people know, like, What's something that you experienced while you were sort of, you know, going back and forth between finding ways to save money, so you can, you know, live and focus on your work? What's something that somebody wouldn't know about that? Nicolai: Like, specifically on the work or just kind of, like the journey? Skipper: Either or either or whatever, like, either the journey or the work itself? Nicolai: I'm thinking sacrifice. You know, sacrifices is kind of, you know, why do we sacrifice we we give up something today so we have something better tomorrow. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: That's kind of the reason behind sacrifice. Skipper: So, you know, you talked about, like, you're someone who needs adrenaline and needs excitement. So what's exciting about either cooking in a kitchen like you were in Boston, or in Spain, like, what's exciting about that for you? Nicolai: The intensity. I mean -- you have chefs are intense people. They're so passionate and they so care about, you know, pleasing their guests. I mean, it's not a career for the faint of heart. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: It's like, the better you want to be the more intense it gets. Yeah. So Arzak was like number seven in the world then. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: For the San Pellegrino, and I think Can Roca ended up coming up to number one. Then I worked for Ferran Adria who's number one, I worked at his laboratory, and like, just the professionalism is super high. But I mean, it is a chaotic world. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So if you come from the business world, and you step into, like, what you'd call professional kitchen -- it would either look chaotic or look like, Wow, look at what's going on. Like, there are 30 people running around. And they're all in unison, you know, they're all listening to the commander. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And they're, you know, they're pumping this beautiful food out. But the intensity is, is definitely what kind of connects the two -- that adrenaline and I mean, when I went back to Spain, you know, they, they called the food not in Spanish, but in the Basque language. You know, so I had to learn, like, What is he saying? How many is that? What does that mean, right? And so it's, you know, like, and there's an intensity doesn't stop sounds like, get on board or get the hell out of the way. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So that intensity is amazing. And it's somewhat addictive. It's not 100% unique to restaurants, but it definitely is a unique environment. Skipper: Yeah. So how did that experience for you, like how -- what is your relationship to cooking now? Nicolai: You know you take where we've been going with the intensity -- and it's hard, right? And if you continue on that path it eats you up. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Right. And so I've seen a lot of people in this transition where they want to be a chef, you know, they've definitely committed years to the craft. And then they get to a point that they start, like, wanting the next level. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And for some reason, I think people think that the higher you go, the more life balance you get. Skipper: Right. Nicolai: It's like, No. You don't. And connecting the two and kind of where it is now, for me, and I think for a lot of people is you accept the craziness, and you're okay with it. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Or you burn out, right? Like, I can't tell you how many chef names, you hear about, you know, they burn out and they don't do restaurants anymore. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Because you kind of have to be okay with the chaos. Restaurants are chaos and control, right. Like I said that earlier. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: When you're racing a clock. So you know, you do a lunch service and a dinner service. And that's what you're doing. You're taking chaos and trying to put it into control by a deadline. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Twice a day, every day. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: It makes you tick differently. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Totally makes you tick differently and when you become okay with that, and it doesn't affect you emotionally anymore, that's like the hurdle that I'm trying to explain like I've seen people kind of get run over by the bus if you will. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You have to accept it. You have to learn to cope with it. But like, it's not even learning. It needs to become part of your nature. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Or else it will eat you up. So -- Skipper: Yeah. I read an interview recently with David Chang -- because he just released a book where he talks about his own experience -- and one of the things that he also talks about in the book is his struggle with depression, and maybe it's too far to say mental illness, but it's how he coped with it. And for years, he kind of just ground through it, right? He was just like, No, this is -- I have to keep working. I have to keep focused. And but then, you know, a few years ago, when Anthony Bourdain passed away, he was like, yeah, this is, I think I have to tell this part of my story that -- and I say all of this, and this leads up to a question for you, you talked about between some of your cooking stunts, you would take a break, and some of it wasn't necessarily of your plan, right? That, you know, the restaurant wasn't going to be open or whatever it was, that opportunity wasn't lined up -- was part of taking those breaks for you also about taking a break from the kitchen, so you could be fully prepared and present while you were there. Nicolai: 100% 100%. I think there's only been one time that I've gone job to job. And it hurt. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Yeah. Because you dive into this stuff, right? Like, you have to make it a lifestyle, right? Like your time off -- if you're not going to a winery, yeah, right, like a winery is relaxing, that's great. But when you're in the industry, it's also part of the industry. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So you got to make your days off, like learning lessons around food, you got to go to the farmers market and enjoy it. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Nicolai: I mean, you don't have to do that for every restaurant. But you know, if you're trying to make a name for yourself as a chef, not as a restaurant, it needs to be an all-in type of thing. And how do you go all in, if you're just clocking in and out? Like you can't clock in and out - so you live this lifestyle? It's like, Okay, I'm going to live this lifestyle so I can get better. Because it's like, Okay, you're gonna work 60 hours a week. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: When are you going to have time to visit the farms? Skipper: Right. Nicolai: Like, what people vision is, what chefs do is not what we do, right? Where we're not like, at the farm, planting seeds, and all that we might have a -- I have a house now and I have a garden. Skipper: Sure. Nicolai: But it's not for the restaurant, I can't grow for the number of people I serve, there's no way. You have to work with your farmers, right? So you have to incorporate it, you know, it's like, the social time needs to be at the farmers market. And you need to enjoy that you need to sit down and have a meal there -- if you have that type of farmers market, meet some people there get to know the farmers and it's like, now you're getting like, the social needs that you need. You're getting the connections that you need. They're still grounded, like, in your world. Skipper: Yeah. So we're recording this episode at the end of November 2020. And we've mentioned a few times, you know, the notion of what's happening in the world right now with COVID-19, this is something that has absolutely directly impacted the restaurant industry. Nicolai: Yes, definitely. Skipper: Is what we're going through right now, does it mean the restaurant industry is gonna die? Is this the last gasp of eating out? What does it mean? Skipper: You know, it might feel like that, but absolutely not. No way. Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: No way. People love to get together. And it's like, yeah, this has changed in the world. But we're still humans. And, you know, we're still social creatures. Skipper: Yeah. Skipper: We love to eat, you know, we crave it. I mean, who doesn't have craving for food and social. So it'll come back when, when it's there, it's gonna take some time, and it's gonna be a struggle. I mean, I think the sad thing right now is that you see a lot of people that have worked and gained the knowledge are getting out and going into other industries. Nicolai: Hmm. Skipper: And so that people that are staying in, and a lot of them are the ones that are owning and are stuck. So they might get burned out, who knows, but there's gonna be, I think there's going to be less like, as of the knowledge on how to run a restaurant. I don't think there ever be a lack on like, how to cook or talent, you know because talent like that comes from somebody's desire, right? And -- Skipper: Somebody's passion. Nicolai: Yeah, passion. Yeah, I mean, learning to cook is, you know, to be a chef, it's like, if you can't cook, then you know, you really should find a new career because that's the minimum -- like if you don't know how to cook, then -- Skipper: It's the core skill set. Nicolai: Isn't going to work, right? And so you have to build upon all those other things to operate a kitchen. And then if you want to operate a restaurant, that's even more. And then, if you want to, you know, scale and have three or five restaurants, which that's really where, you know, you do have to get to five restaurants in order to not work so much -- Skipper: I see -- so you think that's a little bit of a sweet spot? Nicolai: Yeah, it's between 3-5 is kind of the sweet spot where you can slow down because restaurants make 10% -- if they're doing good. Skipper: Wow. Nicolai: That's like, you know, yeah we're a $3 million restaurant so I should make $300,000, right? It's like, no, that's if you're doing really good. And if you have a $3 million restaurant, how many investors do you have that are taken from that pool? So a $3 million restaurant probably cost a pretty penny to open. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Or a lot of equipment or some kind of investment or you did it right. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So, yeah, so COVID will change things. I mean, it has. We're in another set of lockdowns, which is gonna, you know, here in Sacramento, they said the current state of lockdowns is going to close 50% of restaurants that aren't backed by chains or corporations. Skipper: Wow. Nicolai: And, you know, restaurants are the number one employer in California. Skipper: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay. Nicolai: You know, California is 1/8 of the population in the United States and the biggest employer -- Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And it's like shuttering like crazy. So it's sad. It's super sad, you know, restaurants are trying to do outdoor dining, they're trying to do models that they're not built for, which means no efficiency, which means you need more labor, and labor is kind of what kills a restaurant. So it's a nasty cycle. And it's the people that are out there fighting it, good on them and fight because this is the time that they have to. Skipper: So what are you focused on now in your work? Are you still working in the restaurant trade? Are you looking at -- you talked about a little bit of that brain drain of people leaving the restaurant industry -- are you one of those people who moved on? Nicolai: I mean, yes, and no. I decided to pivot in 2019. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so this is kind of strengthens that pivot, but at the same time, it's brought me back because I pivoted away from hospitality. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And now, I'm kind of marrying the two. So I want to be in SAAS and tech. And SAAS is like solving an issue. Skipper: Right. Nicolai: So, where's my strength in solving issues? Well, in restaurants. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: So if I can find something that marries the two and I've, you know, got different irons in the fire and, you know, it's TBD. So I'm still consulting, which consulting right now, it's rough. Skipper: It's strange. Nicolai: Because normally you go in and, you know, I'm the guy that's gonna make you more money. I make money off of your margins. Skipper: Right. Nicolai: But now, I'll do just about anything to help you stay open. It's a lot of sympathy. You know, it's like, I'm an empathetic person, but sympathetic not usually so much. But right now, there's a lot of sympathy for what's going on. Skipper: Yeah. Before we started recording, you mentioned that you actually worked on a line last night. Nicolai: Yeah. Skipper: How was that? Nicolai: Good. Yeah. I mean, it was slow. So maybe for a good thing, or, you know, maybe not. But I mean, working on the line, it's part of my nature. I mean, I can jump on just about any line and hang -- Skipper: Did it feel like did you feel like you were sort of -- Nicolai: Like, back in the day? Skipper: Yeah. Did you feel like you were sort of like stretching muscles that you hadn't used for a while? Even if it was a different pace? Nicolai: My back? Skipper: Oh, your back? Nicolai: It's like riding a bike. Totally. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: What's hard is when you don't know the food, you know? What goes in this? What is this? But I've been there for two weeks or three weeks. So -- Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Yeah, it was good. I mean, I definitely still cook but I just not so much on the line. I more do events, you know, where it's like, cooking whole animals and building fires and serving a lot more people. That's my favorite way of cooking nowadays is is like paellas and whole animals. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Where it's just really me feeding a bunch of people or -- my wife loves to help me, that's fun to do it with her. Skipper: Nice. Do your kids get in on it? Nicolai: They, they think they do. They have little plastic knives and they helped me cut stuff and they're super cute. They love cooking. They love food. So I have my outlet that I've created for cooking is called Ferdinand's Paella. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Like Ferdinand the Bull. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And so I do whole animals and paellas to do that. And, you know, I don't need much staff to do that. So like my family will help or friends will help. It's funny. I get more professional chefs that like own restaurants wanting to hang out with me and cook paellas, and it just cracks me up because, Man, this is so cool. I get the best labor for a couple of beers. And it's so fun because they just hang out. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And they love it. Because paella is definitely not something you see in restaurants, right? It's very much a thing you do for crowds. Skipper: It takes a long time to cook too, right? Nicolai: It takes about an hour -- start to finish. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Once the stock hits the rice, it's 20 minutes and you've got to let it set. Where it takes a long time is actually the day before because the stock is so so important. That's where you're getting most all your flavor. I mean, all the ingredients definitely add to it. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: But um, your base and umami and all that stuff is coming from the stock. Skipper: Paella is one of my favorite things when I see it on a menu, or I see that someone is going to make it -- it's always my favorite thing to try just because it's such a wonderful combination of like flavors and textures. And all of the effort that goes into making it, I think is truly wonderful. Nicolai: Yeah, it's fun. It's such a social dish, right? Like, you know, you don't make paella in the back and serve it. It's how you make it. Skipper: It's a big pot. Skipper: Right near the crowd. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You know, they come over, they smell it. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: My pan's a four-foot pan. So it's like the amount of steam -- Skipper: It's hard to miss. Nicolai: You can be outside and the whole area just smells incredible. You know, I forget what book it was. I was reading something and how you can just cut some onions up and saute them and literally, people just become happier, just from the smell. Skipper: Nice. Nicolai: People are just so happy when you cook paella and it's their faces. It's part of the enjoyment. It's not the cooking. You know, it's a social thing. People are of course always drinking wine. Everybody has a story about the best pie they had or your you know, it's the first time they've had pie. Skipper: Yeah, I would love to continue talking about paella and food in general but we're coming to the end of our time together -- Nicolai: Sure. Skipper: And it's right around lunchtime -- Nicolai: Yeah, definitely. Skipper: So I'm looking forward to whatever it is that I'm going to have for lunch, but I wonder, Nicolai if we could close things out with a couple of questions. So whether it is in regard to your cooking or other things that you've done in your life, what's one of the most important lessons that you've learned so far? Nicolai: Patience. You know, in cooking patience is a hard lesson. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Especially when you're starting out you're trying to get set up and you want to rush food and food doesn't want to be rushed. Skipper: Right? Nicolai: Food is ready when food's ready, right? So you really have to learn how to make everything work, but that learning that patience and having it become part of your character is tough. But then once you start practicing it, you can definitely see the results of it. You know, patience with people. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: Patience with life patience with a pandemic. We all probably need a little bit of patience with that right now. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And then probably focus. I have a mind that doesn't turn off, learning focus, and learning that different means -- meditation, listening to others, tracking your results, things like that. Yeah. Skipper: Yeah, two things that you mentioned in your introduction -- being both a Christian being a Taoist -- there's some notion of spirituality and how you find that patience and the focus that you just talked about. Those must be other ways by which you access those qualities. Nicolai: Oh, absolutely. I think it's a forever lesson. That's a forever struggle. It's a forever -- Skipper: Yeah, Nicolai: Journey. And, you know, we all have, we all have our differences and learning what your weaknesses are, and your strengths are, you know, it can help you along your path and patience and focus really helps me in organization. I'm not an organized person by nature. Skipper: Hmm. Nicolai: But I am one in life because I've learned the tools. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And it helps me achieve results. So now people, it's funny because I think a lot of the things the ways people view me is not actually part of my nature. Like, I'm extremely shy. But -- Skipper: I don't know that I would have guessed that from talking to you. Nicolai: But yeah, nobody and so maybe I'm not shy anymore. Skipper: Right. Nicolai: I'll tell you, it's inside -- it's still there. But I've learned the tools and I've learned how to navigate around it. Like I'm not an organized person. Now, I'm more organized than most people. Skipper: Sure. Nicolai: Because I've practiced it. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: But isn't that true for a lot of things? We spend time practicing and we get better. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You can't get better at everything. Skipper: No. Nicolai: Like I'm never gonna be in the NBA. Skipper: So, Nicolai, where can people find out more about you? Are you online? Do you have something coming up that people should be watching for? Nicolai: LinkedIn, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram, but very little nowadays. My website is mustardseed-hospitality, which is my consulting company. I have Ferdinand's Paella, which is my paella company. But yeah, that's how people can get ahold of me through LinkedIn. Skipper: Cool. Nicolai: I love chatting with people. I love the social aspect of all that stuff. And if anybody has a problem, they can email me. I love helping people when they have problems. Skipper: That'd be great. I wonder if in the show notes, and it doesn't have to be your proprietary paella recipe. But I wonder if you have a favorite paella recipe you could share with folks who might be interested in making this at home. Nicolai: I have ratios. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: Because the best way to cook paella is sobre la marcha, which means figure it out as you go. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: So you get kind of a base of what it takes to make a good paella. But then the ingredients are found at the farmers market, the ingredients are found at the fish market when you're standing there. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: And paella is one of those things, if you're gonna cook it once, don't (bother) but if you're gonna cook it 20 times, then -- there's a big learning curve. It's constant. I've been cooking pie for 15, 16 years, and I'm now becoming happy with my paella. Skipper: So it's taken you 15 years to become satisfied with your paella? Nicolai: Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't sell paella for 12 years, right. I just started selling it -- Skipper: Oh, wow. Nicolai: Three, four years ago. Yeah, I'd only do them for family, friends, and staff. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: But finally, I was like, Okay, I'm happy with them. And it's funny because the guy that taught me I call it -- like when I was in Spain, my roommate, he's from Valencia. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: That's where I learned to make pirates from him. He would make it and I would say, You're a God of rice. Every time he'd be like, you should try my dad's. This is nothing. Skipper: Oh, wow. Nicolai: It's funny, because I hear that same thing happening to me. This is nothing, you should try Ruben's. Skipper: Sure. That's one thing, we didn't -- and I can't believe we didn't land on it and I'm thinking about it now as you're talking about this, your recipe is not about solid ingredients, like two cups of this and a pound of this or whatever it is, there's a lot of cooking that is improvisational. You have to -- it's dependent on what you find at the farmers market. Like if you're cooking in a restaurant, what are the things that you're finding out in the open, if it's not strawberry season, you're not going to put strawberries on the menu. But you might need to have something sweet, you might need to have some sort of berry or fruit or something else. Nothing else works in the same way that strawberry does. Blueberry doesn't work the same way -- it's not just like adding the same amount. You have to understand each one of your ingredients. Nicolai: Yeah, it's funny because coaching cooks, they — a lot of people that work for me, they'll get to a point where they started asking me questions, they've been asking me questions for months, and then eventually they'll come up to me, they'll ask me a question and they'll stop. And they'll answer (the question) because they look at my face, and they can see the answer. And they're like, He says the same thing every time. And it's: Well, what do you think? And then they answer me and I go, That sounds like a good idea. And then they're looking at me like, because most chefs will be like, it's like this and, you know, like this, like this. And then they'll talk them through. Yeah, that sounds good. Why don't you try that? And then, you start empowering people to use what's just naturally inside of them. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: I mean -- like my wife, anybody that calls me like, Okay, well, this is how I do it. You know, this is the ratio you need. Because there is some information you need to give people. You know, paella, it's either 3-to-1 or 2-to-1, it takes 20 minutes to cook. Skipper: Right. Nicolai: You know, there's things that don't change that are more like the science of cooking, right? Skipper: Sure. Nicolai: You know, most things, you need a structure -- and then they're organic, right? And the structure is kind of the science of food. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And so once you understand the science of food and you understand how your palate works, you understand the flavors in your mouth, you understand the flavors in your olfactory -- Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: You could start really messing with palettes and really getting to know food. And then your palate grows. I mean, food is better with wisdom. Skipper: Yeah. Nicolai: And so you need that structure and then you need that organic and that organic is in people -- they just don't know it. Well, taste it. Is it salty? Does it need more salt? Well, what do you think? And they taste it. And they're like, it needs more salt. And you go, Yeah. It needs more salt. Skipper: That's awesome. Well, Nicolai, thanks for making time today -- holding this space and time with me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Nicolai: Absolutely. I had a blast talking. It's fun. You know, next time hopefully it'll be over paella and some wine. Skipper: Yeah, totally. I'd love to take you up on that. Nicolai: As soon as COVID is done, I'll be I'll be holding more. Until then, the backyard is where I do it. Skipper: Yeah. I'm sure that the backyard is a happening place to be right now -- your backyard anyway. Skipper: Oh, it is. I gotta pit back there. I do it over wood when I do it at home. Skipper: Nice. Skipper: And thank you for listening to how this works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please find us in your favorite podcast app and subscribe. While you're there, leave us a review. Also, if you could tell just one other person about the show and why they should listen. You can find how this works at howthisworks.show. That's three words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also in the places where social media happens. Thank you for taking the time to listen today. I hope you learned something from my conversation with Nicolai. I know I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Nicolai: I cooked on the line first time in six years last night. Skipper: Oh really? Nicolai: At the place I'm consulting. Skipper: How was that that? Nicolai: Yeah, it's down the road. Skipper: Okay. Nicolai: So it was funny. Skipper: Nice. Well, we can definitely talk about we can talk about that because I think --Okay, let's get into the nuts and bolts of the episode...