Skipper Chong Warson: This episode of How This Works addresses adult subject matters and contains adult language. [Intro music] Skipper: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson, and I'm a design director in San Francisco. Thanks for listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about a topic that they know an awful lot about. Today, I have Kait Scalisi with me, and we're going to talk about sexual pleasure, sexual health, and consent culture. Thanks for making time and space to be here, Kait. Kait Scalisi: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited about this conversation. Skipper: So Kait, let's start with you. And let's start with pronouns. My pronouns are he/him. How would you like to be referred? Kait: Yes, I use she/her pronouns. Skipper: Great. So Kait, who are you? Tell us a few things, please. Kait: I love how open this question is -- and there are just so many beautiful ways to answer it right? I can answer the professional way to say that I am a founder, I'm a certified sex educator, and I am an advocate for the revolutionary power of pleasure. And that's how I spend a lot of my time. Skipper: Okay. Kait: And then I can answer it the more personal way and say that I am a cisgender, queer white woman living on unceded Lenape territory in modern-day New York City. I am a partner, a daughter, I'm a big reader, I'm a dancer. And I love that because we all contain so many multitudes, and they all show up in everything that we do. Even if we try to pretend like they don't. Kait: 100%, plus one. All of those details just sort of flow up into us. Right? They boil up whether we want them to or not. Skipper: Yeah. So Kait, what's something that many people might not guess about you? You gave us a lot of detail in your who are you but something you feel comfortable sharing, of course. Kait: Yeah. I think the disability piece and the chronically ill piece often surprises people, because most of the time, but not all of the time, my illnesses and disabilities are completely invisible. And that carries with it a whole different set of struggles. And so like I was saying, living in New York, for example, right -- if there are days where my pain is high, taking the subway can be bad. But I look young, I look able-bodied. So how do you ask for a seat? So that is something that surprises people -- also, because I have really big energy. And I think a lot of people expect, I don't know, I don't understand all of the ways in which ableism permeates our culture. But one of the ways that I think they expect me to be like a little lower energy, or a little less, I don't know, joyful all the time. And that's just my personality. So it always, it surprises people, the ways in which, the many ways in which I have to accommodate my days in my life around my body and my disabilities. Skipper: Yeah, that's such a nice point to put on it. I think, you know, in my field, one of the notions that we talked about, is this idea of accessible design -- and how do we make sure that the physical structures or the digital structures that we're creating are accessible by other people. And I think when you begin talking about it, some people have an immediate response, Well, what do you mean by that? And once you open up your eyes to how the world might look to someone else, and you know, I wear glasses, sometimes I wear contact lenses. And that's a kind of constraint that I deal with, right? But someone who's in a wheelchair, or someone who has another kind of challenge is going to look at the world very differently. And I think the more open-minded we can be, the more inclusive and the more accessible we can make these places -- whether it's as simple as having a conversation, or it's about, like you said, getting on the subway to get from point A to point B. Kait: It shows up a lot. Skipper: Yeah. So Kait, what are we talking about today? You know, I gave some of this away in our intro, but I'd love to hear you say it, what are the things that we're going to talk about that you know very well? Kait: Yeah. I would say the overarching piece, right, the thing that ties all of the other topics together is this piece around pleasure. And pleasure being this revolutionary power and healing force and the ways in which it lives in our world. They can contribute to sexual health, obviously to sexual pleasure, and then also the ways in which it shows up in consent culture -- and pleasure gets denigrated, right? It goes as far back as the Bible, we look at Eve and the apple. These messages run so deep in our world, and so it's either this fluffy little thing that gets pushed to the side, or it's this thing that's bad and we need to stay away from it, and we need to live this aesthetic life, and so on and so forth. And in reality, not only does it drive so many of our decisions, right, whether we're running towards pleasure or away from pain, there's an involvement of pleasure in there. But it also really has this incredible healing power. And something I've returned to in the last year again, and again and again. And during the recent past, the present, the really challenging experiences in my life, it is about leaning into those moments of pleasure, as a way to ground, as a way to nourish, as a way to get through. And so over the last year, and you know, we're recording this on essentially the anniversary of at least New York City starting to shut down and calling it, it's been -- how can we take those steps in gulps of pleasure? Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Because we need them to get through. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And they just add that extra meaning in life. So that's already talking about and the different ways that pleasure shows up interpersonally sexually and in culture. Skipper: That's a great summation. Thank you. So Kait, let's rewind, you didn't start in this field. Right. I did a little bit of research before we were recording. How did you get started? Kait: Yeah. I always like to preface by saying I was always that friend, right? And sex educators, what I found is we either fall into one or two categories, we were either that friend that all of our friends came to and that usually meant, we had a parent who is the cool parent. And so I had the cool mom. And/or we were completely shy and came from a really conservative background and it was never talked about, and I have yet to find someone who doesn't fall into one of those two extremes. And my colleagues often say the same. So I always fell into the like that friend extreme. And the original plan was to go to medical school and become an OB-GYN so I'm not totally disconnected, I was like, we're still we're gonna be focused -- down there. We're gonna be focused on it. And -- Skipper: Right. Kait: And so then when I was in college, this opportunity to sell sex toys through one of those, you know, multi-level marketing companies fell into my lap, and my partner was studying abroad and working abroad. And I was like, I need money. And (this company_ promised me money. So like, sure. And then I kind of just kept saying, Yeah, yeah. I love telling that, like what was I thinking -- I was at a Catholic college, I had most of the residence assistants, and half of the actual staff were in. And they were willing to look the other way that I was doing this because they've actually supp -- so much support, on the DL because they couldn't -- it was a Catholic college, they couldn't publicly support it. So I kind of just said, Yes. And I was like, Yeah, sure, I'll sell sex toys. Why not? And then people were like, Oh, can you do this? And I was like, Sure, I can do this. And I just, I threw myself into learning. I threw myself into all of this. So fast forward -- I was doing some work with cancer patients doing some health psychology research. And we did ask about sex. And it was really revolutionary. So this was 2010, 2011. I had doctors yell at me for asking this question. I said I'm just the research assistant, you can talk to my primary investigator (PI), who was also the head of emergency medicine. And of course, they never did, right. And what I noticed was that I had that really strong, really intense response from the healthcare providers. And then the patients. Even the one question, it was really vague too -- it was like, as a result of cancer treatments, are you experiencing any sexual side effects? It was super vague. I had these patients who just poured their hearts out to me. And it was the same phenomena that had happened at every single sex toy party I did where close friends, strangers, didn't matter would be like years. And I remember my first party being like, Whoa. We've lived together for three years. I didn't know this, right, like just really taken aback. And so I'm working in a hospital, I'm looking around going is this really the life I want as a doctor? I'm getting all of this really like affirmation and messaging that like, Hey, you're really good at this. You help people feel really comfortable talking about a topic that we don't talk about? Skipper: Yeah. Kait: You're already kind of doing it. So what would it look like to expand that? So, got into medical school, decided not to go, decided to pursue public health instead, which always been part of the plan, but decided to just go all in and focus on sex education, and lots more bumps in there around you know that you must work with adolescents and youth. What do you mean why do you want to talk about pleasure? Like, why does that matter? And I'm like, because teenagers don't care that they should use condoms to prevent disease, they care about how it's gonna feel. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And that's a pleasure question. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And it's the same thing, right? So pleasure and health can go hand in hand. And now here we are. Doing those sex toy parties, right, has transformed into having this platform and this ecosystem where really whatever folks are looking for on their journey, if they do just need a sex toy, we got that, if they need some higher level of support through coaching, or couples counseling, I offer that as well. And so through Passion by Kait is bringing together all of these different pieces, and supporting people on their journeys, and finding freedom and pleasure, whatever that journey looks like for them, and wherever they are on that journey. Skipper: That's so great. So I want to pull something out, we've now said the word sex several times during this conversation, and there might be some people who are tuning into this because that's what they saw on the show description. And in the examples that you just gave up, whether we're talking about a cancer patient, or we're talking about someone who's attending a sex toy party -- to your point, sometimes it's just one question that gets them to open up and reveal a whole underlayer of just underneath the surface, what it is that they're thinking about, what is that they're considering, what it is that they have questions about. But I do know that many people in the world just don't want to access this layer for themselves. They don't want to talk about it, they don't talk about it with their partner, they don't talk about it with just an acquaintance that they might be sexually involved with -- nevermind, close friends, and family. So how do you recommend, as a professional who's now been working in this field for many years, how do you recommend starting that conversation? How can you broach this topic? Kait: First of all, thank you for bringing that up. Because the question that people always ask is, How do I have stronger orgasms? How do I do this and how do I do that? And one of the first questions that I always ask back to them is, Have you talked about this with the person you're having sex with. And while this is not universally true for the Passion by Kait audience, I'm the person right. The number, I would be rich, if I had $1, for every person over the last 11 and a half years, who had said to me, you're the only person I've ever told this to. And it's not. It's not even necessarily like big stuff, life-changing stuff. And I haven't always, it's not always I should say, talking about like trauma or like, you know, heavy-duty BDSM stuff, some of it is just really, really common struggles to orgasm or desires like spanking or something like that. So number one is to say, I want to just frickin' normalize it. And sometimes that's all we need is to know that we are normal. And we are not alone. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And so basically, what I always say is that when it comes to sex, there's more and less common, there's really not normal. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: It's just, you know, again, to use kinks as an example, right? Like spanking is a really common one, something that most people do, playing with fire or sharp objects, not as common, they're both normal. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Kait: One is just a little more accessible. So number one, know that you're not alone. Number two, I'm really glad you brought this up. Because again, I think we often want to find these answers and solutions in a quick fix form, which makes a lot of sense, at least living in America, and like we love our quick fixes — consumerism, capitalism, diet culture, etc. Right? And -- Skipper: Short attention span. Kait: Exactly, exactly. Oftentimes, what we need to actually do is have a conversation with ourselves, and many conversations, and have a conversation, many, with the people we are having sex with. And before I dive into that, I'm just always going to add layers is what I do. Skipper: That's fine. Kait: Before I dive into, How can you even start the conversation? Skipper: Yeah. Kait: It starts with you because there is so much shame around sex. And if we -- in the therapy world, there's that whole name it to tame it adage, and it's really true. It's not often the only thing that's needed, but there's going to be shame. It's the whole reason why this question is even a question. Skipper: Sure. Kait: Right? If there wasn't sexual shame, we wouldn't be talking about well, how do you start the conversation? It would be like talking about brunch or talking about the books on your shelf. Skipper: That's right. Kait: So, number one is, Are you familiar with how shame shows up in your body, in your brain in your life because it's kind of show up, no matter what. And knowing that it's going to show up can then inform not just what you say but like how you have the conversation because you want to stack the cards in your favor to make it as easy for yourself and painless for yourself and whoever you're talking about it with because they're also going to have shame -- Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And even those of us who are in the field have shame, we just happen to have the training and tools to know how to navigate that. So getting to know how shame shows up in your life is invaluable, and not just for this. Honestly, I think it's one of the best things any of us can spend time on -- Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And then in terms of how to get the conversation started, I often advise blaming something or someone else Skipper: Hmm. Kait: And then, don't ask a yes-no question. Ask an open-ended question. And actually, we didn't talk about links but I have a few resources that I'm happy to share with the audience okay that we can link with this episode yep that dive into this more because we're in the process of doing a lot around it right now so what I mean by those two rules, right, number one is blame this conversation Skipper: Sure Kait: Even if we don't talk about it, you have my permission -- I'm giving you all of you listening and you if you need to say -- Skipper: Sure, thank you. Kait: I happen to be listening to this podcast or I happen to be talking to this crazy sex educator/human and they mentioned (insert topic here) -- again, spoiler even if we didn't mention it, just say we pretend we did, we talked about everything, right? Skipper: Right. Kait: And then the reason I advise that is because it takes, it gives you a little bit of an out, it's like, oh well I just heard about this thing, right -- like so and so was talking about this thing, heard about it, read about it, someone shared an article or an Instagram or whatever. And then that's why you do that and then number two is avoiding asking, Would you be open to talking about that because if your partner just says yes or if they just say no, the conversation goes nowhere. And what could be worse than someone says, Yeah sure. (Pauses) Skipper: Yeah, yeah. Kait: It's crickets. So awkward. Skipper: For them to sit in that tension and wait for you to say more when it's already taken you a lot to say the thing you've already said. Kait: Exactly. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And the last pro tip that I'll throw out -- that's the basic structure I often encourage is driving, hiking, anytime you're side-by-side. I know people can't see me I'm making all these hand gestures. Anytime you can be side by side with your partner for these heavier conversations and side note this also goes from money, this goes for mental health stuff, this goes for any conversation that feels heavy or scary or overwhelming. Being side by side can help and having something else like if you're driving or you're hiking it's like, Oh look at the tree, is -- hey, by the way, can we talk about butt stuff? Skipper: (Laughs) Kait: It helps to defuse it and like, Oh shoot -- Skipper: That tracks. Kait: There's a snake on the path. Yeah, exactly. Skipper: Right. Kait: So that is my simple technique for getting started and there's a lot of different ways to do it but that's what I like to offer. Skipper: Yeah, so blame something, open-ended questions not yes or no, and then some sort of paradigm where you might be sitting side by side or in a way where you're both facing the same direction -- driving, hiking, maybe even watching tv, or something like that. Kait: Playing video games -- yes, anything. Yes. Skipper: Okay, those are excellent tips and I think at least a way to get started and maybe you can start in the kiddie pool depth and ask about something you know really small and then work up to maybe the other burning parts that you're wondering about. Kait: Yeah and practice. That adage about practice making perfect exists for a reason. Within health education, we call it building self-efficacy so if you're trying to build a habit -- if you want to floss, you start by flossing one tooth at a time. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: So if you have 10 things you want to talk about, start with the one that makes your palms a little sweaty but doesn't make you want to either run and hide, right, have that flee response or like lash out and fight or just shut down, right? Choose the one that it's like that discomfort zone, but not that snap-back zone where you just go straight into the depths of your stress response. And just like your thinking brain is completely shut off. Skipper: Okay. Kait: I feel like this is the point where I should also say that my background is in neuroscience and public health, I talk about the brain a lot, but you wanting to be there's a very sweet spot there, we always talk about, you know, go outside your comfort zone, it is possible to go too far outside. And if you go too far outside, outside what's called your window of capacity or tolerance. And then you are in one of these super stress moments. And that happens a lot easily. When it comes to sex conversations. It happens a lot when we're having it, particularly for folks carrying marginalized identities for whom it might not be safe to be in our bodies in some or many ways. And so anytime you're thinking about doing something that feels a little scary, that sweet spot is really powerful. And it takes some practice to figure out exactly where it is for you. Skipper: One of the things you just mentioned was the notion of shame as it relates to sexual pleasure. So how do you begin to work, whether it's in a workshop or a one on one session, or these days in a Zoom meeting? How do you begin to work through that with someone else? Kait: Yeah. I like to think of myself as really being the space holder, and supporting people in their own journey/path, right. And so I'm creating the space for them to explore how shame shows up in their body-brain, brain-body, and what it looks like then in their, their thoughts and their emotions and their actions. And so my question is always, So you feel shame? What comes before that, like, slow it down, which is something my, my therapist always says to me, too. And so I just pass that along. Because I think it's really powerful so often, right? Our brains, these big, beautiful organs are processing a lot, especially these days. And they're gonna take shortcuts, they're wired, literally to take shortcuts. So if we are always used to responding in X way, with a shame response, or a shame spiral. Skipper: Right. Kait: It can sometimes be hard to untangle. Okay, like, what is that story? there? Huh? Do I even believe that? Is that even true? Depending on what it is, right? Skipper: Sure. Kait: And if it's not true, or if I don't believe it anymore. Skipper: Hmm. Kait: What do I want to believe in stuff? And what are the steps I can take with my thoughts to get there? You know, a lot of pop psychology, pop neuroscience, pop sex culture stuff, sex ed, etc. It's often around like these really big jumps, right? So it's like, if you have someone, for example, I work with a lot of folks in my one on one practice, are coming out of various purity culture, conservative religious backgrounds, not totally sure how that happened, but deeply honored to support them in that work. And like, you don't just go from thinking that sex is this dirty, shameful, awful ruining thing to being, I love sex. It's the greatest thing ever. Woo hoo! This isn't how most people work, right? There are people out there who can do that. So if that's you, I bow, you don't need me. You don't need that I've necessarily that extra support. But most of us need to take that stepwise approach and start to say, Okay, well, A) it makes a lot of sense that I experience shame around sex because here are the messages I got from family, friends, society, the different communities. I'm a part of religion school, what were those? Skipper: Yeah. Kait: So of course, it makes sense. Again, normalize it for yourself. And then it's starting to see like, how does what are those thought patterns and stories and kind of, I think of them as little pathways in your brain -- and that's literally what they are. That should then lead to that feeling of shame. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And when you start to slow it down, a few things can happen. You can begin to notice it sooner. And I'll be honest, this is not always a fun process. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: I'm doing a really good job selling pleasure here. Right? It doesn't always feel good to be like, Oh, crap, I'm noticing shame at an earlier level. But what happens is in the long run, that means you can interrupt that shame response sooner. Before the spiral. You could be like, Oh, hey, shame. I see you here. I know that you're a load of bullshit. You are lies that have been told to me by X, Y, and Z. I'm an Aries. So I get feisty. Not everyone's approaches this way, right? Like some people are, like, need to, like, sit with it and hold its hand or like. Skipper: Sure. Kait: Right? I'm not here to tell you exactly how to have that response. I'm just making space for it. Skipper: Right. Kait: So start to notice it and interrupt it. And that takes practice that takes being reminded that you're not alone, that takes being reminded of what your goals are so when I'm working people with people in a one-on-one setting, we are doing some goal setting. It's not very SMART goals. I'll be honest because you can't when it comes to feelings and emotions, and shame, and pleasure, we're not putting those in boxes, we're not making them time-bound. Skipper: Super measurable. Kait: We're making them -- Skipper: Exactly. Kait: Yeah, exactly. We're making them human bound. And how can we start to unravel that, but pretending that the shame isn't there? Pretend, you know, wanting it to not be there, those alone don't make it just go away. They just mean that's running the show, almost without your consent. And so you can start to say like, Yeah, you know, I don't believe that. And often, that's the exact thing that we need for pleasure to come in. It's not often trying new stuff. It's often dealing with the shame and healing the shame, the trauma, the stories that make pleasure accessible to people, which is not a particularly clickbaity headline, you're not going to see that on the cover of "Cosmopolitan". Skipper: No. Kait: But that's the long-term work that then enables you to continue experiencing pleasure no matter what life throws your way. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: This skill set is what has allowed me to stay connected to my pleasure, to my relationship -- how I got last year as a pandemic. And I had two injuries and three new health diagnoses. Skipper: Oh no, I'm sorry. Kait: -- in the middle of a pandemic, you know -- Thank you. (In an accent) Eh, it's fine. I mean, it sucked, right. It royally sucked or several years ago when I got my first two autoimmune diagnoses, right? I was like, Oh, yeah, this sucks. And like, here are all these tools. So it's not about, Let's fix your orgasm problem. It's like, Let's heal the deeper shit. And then the orgasms won't even, you're not even gonna worry about them anymore, because you're gonna be experiencing more pleasure and less shame throughout your whole freakin' life. Skipper: Yeah, yeah. That's -- Kait: And in the bedroom. Skipper: I mean, that's a good headline. That's a longer headline, right? It's a longer story. It's a long read for sure. Kait: Yeah. Skipper: But I think that's a fantastic headline, Kait: I have to listen back through and write it down. Skipper: So we're not just talking about pleasure today, we're also talking about this notion of sexual health. And I love that we've circled around where we are, at this moment in time, in most places in the United States, and you know, some places in the world have been experiencing the novel coronavirus pandemic for now over a year. It's been weird the last year, right. So -- Kait: Yeah. Skipper: What does it mean, in that context, understanding that there's a lot more in people's lives but what does it mean to be sexually healthy? We're not just talking about STDs or unplanned pregnancies. We're talking about so much more. How can we identify what sexual health is? And then how can we improve it? Kait: I'm really grateful that you asked that question. Because for many of us sex educators, we were watching the pandemic happen and thinking, This is familiar. Right? And I'm only 32. So I'm a little bit young, especially in terms of, being actively engaged with the AIDS pandemic, right? When HIV and AIDS coming out, if you will, but that certainly shaped the field and my colleagues and mentors, who are a little older than me, were actively teaching during it, right. And so, there were so many parallels, even around masks and condoms and shame-based communication versus -- it just left my brain (pauses) -- harm reduction, there you go. Right? And so -- Skipper: Okay. Kait: Number one, there are a lot of parallels. And number two, I love this question, because we have distilled sexual health down to, you know, STIs and avoiding STIs and unplanned pregnancies. That's the larger thing and, you know, you can trace that through government funding, through the pushing of abstinence-only sex education, even when I landed in grad school back in 2013. You know, teachers would talk about professors were talking about how their work had to change as a result of Congress flipping. Because the access to NIH grants to research money as well as to grants for educational programs and curricula change so drastically. So I think it's really important to name that the conversations that typically get had around sexual health are very impacted by those bigger systemic factors. Skipper: Okay. Kait: And they're important to talk about, of course. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And they're not all there is, as you pointed out. So for me, right, the way that I talk and teach about sexual health, particularly on Passion by Kait is through, yes, obviously, there's the physical piece, right? There's the body-based piece. Skipper: Sure. Kait: But we're not shaming people who have STIs because they can have healthy and pleasure-filled sex lives. And they deserve that if that's something they want like everyone does. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: We're talking about everything, I look at sex as connecting to every other part of our life, and vice versa. So we're talking about communication, you know, are you able to talk to the people are having sex with about the sex you're having, whether it's good or not as good or otherwise? We're talking about consent? Skipper: Sure. Kait: We are talking about body image, and not body image and like #bopo way, but like, the deeper ways in which society tells us -- Skipper: Body positivity. Kait: Yeah, your body is valuable or not. Because individual work, right, just saying, like I love my body doesn't change how the world interacts with it. Skipper: That's right. Kait: And so communication, body image, we're talking about mental health, how that shows up in relationships, and sex. So it's a little bit of everything. And we can't not talk about religion. So sexually healthy, to me, is looking at those messages, choosing for yourself, what's your yes? And what's your no? Forgetting the shoulds, I usually say another F word. But I don't know if I'm allowed to curse. Skipper: You can curse, you can curse. Kait: Saying fuck the shoulds, right? And worrying about your desires and your happiness, not at the expense of or in a selfish way. But not -- but I'm saying don't compare, right. The number one thing that people say besides after, I guess number two, after you know, I haven't told anyone this is you know, we're not having enough sex. But when I ask them to quantify that, that number can range from we haven't had sex in years to we're having it three times a week. Skipper: Hmm. Kait: Enough, according to whose standards? Skipper: That's right. Kait: So are you happy with your sex life -- Skipper: Yeah. Kait: To me is, is also a health question. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And that gets back to pleasure as health. Skipper: Plus one. 100%. I just wanted to add in one personal sidebar, which is one thing that my wife and I/we have this notion in our relationship that all feelings are valid, full stop. Kait: Yes, yes. Skipper: Doesn't matter if you should be -- if you should be feeling that, if you feel like this is appropriate. A feeling is a feeling. And that's one of the things that I feel very strongly about is that I will never argue with someone's feeling. Kait: Hmm. Skipper: Now how they manifest that feeling, and maybe some of the actions that they do. That's a whole different ball of wax. Right? But I think you have to give your feelings space. Think about what it is or don't think about it, throw it away. You know, that's your choice. But that's not something I'm ever going to argue with. Because you are entitled to that feeling. Kait: Absolutely. Now, all feelings are valid. And to get to that action piece, feelings aren't always facts. Skipper: That's right. Kait: Right. And that with that action piece, that's where we have things like trauma, shame, oppression -- Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Come in and the narrative gets twisted around itself. And it takes when I talk about the revolutionary power of pleasure, I mean it because it takes a strong ass human to say, fuck the shoulds, when every message around them is should-should-should-should-should-should-should. You should be having sex two times a week because happy couples have sex two times a week. Skipper: Okay. Kait: What kind of happy couples what kind of sex? What are we even talking about, right? And so it takes -- I am so honored to do this work and to work with the people I work with because they are some of the most badass, courageous humans I know Skipper: Yeah. So let's move to one of the other subject areas that we previewed and that's around consent. One of the things and I'm speaking to you from where I am -- I'm a sis normative male -- and in my world, verbal no means no and yes means yes but how can we be sure? How can we feel definite about what those things mean? Kait: Yeah, I love thinking about consent from a larger picture and that's often how I teach about it and I think about how are we using our yeses and noes. And then how are we responding to each other's yeses and noes not just during sex because at the end of the day we don't just need consent during sex so this oft-quoted business advice to -- what is it? How does it go? Skipper: Act first, apologize later. Kait: Act first, apologize later. Thank you, I thought it can't be ask first, apologize later. It's act first, apologize later. So, if you've looked at that within a sex context ugh, ugh I just -- Skipper: Ugh. Kait: But that is a thing that we teach people. How do we turn that off when -- what I would say, I'm gonna get heated here, when you walk through your bedroom doors -- if we're using the bedroom as a proverbial place to have sex -- like the rest of the world and your life don't just disappear and I promise when I make the device that does that I will be rich, your stressors disappear. But the fact is when we have that as kind of the dominant culture and that's what's rewarded -- particularly for men and that's not saying that men are only men are perpetrators because they're not. Skipper: Right. Kait: How do you just turn that off? I want to be having those conversations around how do we look at consent and other places too because when you practice in places where there's less vulnerability and shame -- and this goes for pleasure or consent or anything right so if you can practice saying, No, I don't want pizza for takeout and really meaning that no it's a lot easier to say like no I'm really not in the mood and genuinely mean that and if you can practice receiving someone's no I don't want pizza dinner without being like but I want pizza but come on, let's have pizza. It's a lot easier to receive that no. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Apparently, I want pizza today. I think that the conversation around consent -- particularly for adults -- needs to be expanded and I have so much respect for all of my colleagues and all of the work that has been done and the leaps and bounds that the conversation has taken so I want to be really clear that I'm not dismissing any of that and it needs to be ongoing. Just saying yes once and just checking in once, it goes both ways, we so often are focused on, Well did they say yes and so the onus gets put on the other person did they ask, did they check-in, and what often comes up after this is, Yeah, that's so awkward or that ruins the mood so make it hot. Asking if something feels good is hot, it doesn't have to be -- you're checking -- (rushed) Does it have to be like, Oh my god, is this okay?! Are you okay?! (Pauses) Kait: It doesn't have to be that way, it can be and that's fine right but it can also be, (relaxed) Hey does that feel good? And if the answer is no or it's just okay or you know, I was really feeling it and now, I'm not anymore. Skipper: Right. Kait: Then you can move on. Skipper: Right. Kait: And you can also ask clarifying questions and they can also be hot. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: I really love for this, really love romance novels because more and more are including a lot of what technically would be verbal consent and also technically would be dirty talk right? So I just went read one with a super subby duke and it was like some of the best verbal consent -- "verbal consent" -- I've ever read. Skipper: Wow. Kait: And so the more that permeates in these places, these alternative places that we end up getting our sex education and conversations on consent, the easier it is to see ourselves using them and the more we could see how it really is an ongoing -- it's just like the talk, like you don't just have one talk with your kids, right? A lot of people do but that's not advised. Skipper: Right? Kait: It's ongoing conversations -- and we're back to communication. We've circled right back to the beginning of communication. It's about engaging in that in a way that feels as comfortable to you and it may also mean establishing a scene -- which is often what happens in BDSM -- with clear limits and boundaries, it can also be having a safe word, there are so many different ways this could look depending on who is having sex and what types of sex they're having and what they're doing and individual boundaries but definitely that ongoing piece from both sides is really important -- or all sides in the session is really important. Skipper: All sides, yeah. Kait: Yeah. Skipper: Yeah, I love that you've elevated consent to a much higher level so it isn't just consent for one action or consent for this thing that's happening at hand but it's consent in general and it's how you receive it and how you give it because it needs to be conversational, we don't stop with the persons who we have conversations with, it just changes, the timeframe changes, the topics change. The point that you brought up about it doesn't have to be a record needle skidding across and everything stopping moment, it can be the vein of what's happening and asking the question but it doesn't have to be so guarded, it can be part of, (relaxed) Hey, how does that feel? Does that feel... Kait: Yeah. Skipper: So those are great things to keep in mind. Kait: Yeah and I think colleagues and who are more focused around BDSM and within that world and some scenes that I've had the privilege of witnessing where the check-ins often are like, Scale of one to 10 with your pain, where are you? And it's honestly, it's super freakin hot because that also establishes care so the person who is topping is checking in because they care and like that -- chef's kiss -- that chain, that is beautiful, that is sexy, that is deep, and it is connective. And that's also consent and that's also dirty talk and so the focus that I have through Passion by Kait is working with adults, this conversation can be more nuanced. I would never teach youth this way, this is why don't teach youth around consent this way. Because their prefrontal cortexes are not at the point to have that but I still think we can expand the conversation even with youth. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Around consent to be not just -- and even thinking back to the little boy pulling on the girl's pigtails and her saying no and that not being respected and then it's boys are just boys. No, let's take it all the way back to hugging grandma. You know, people poopoo that but those messages permeate, they don't just go away when you walk through the bedroom doors. Skipper: That's a great point and you know my wife and I have a seven-year old daughter and we're already seeing very small instances of other people in her life telling her things or responding to her or she responding to other people and we're already seeing this show up in very small ways. And I'm also thinking about some of the headlines that we've seen recently about Shia LaBeouf or Armie Hammer or Ron Jeremy, any number of people that we see are having allegations leveled against them. Also, around how my wife, my female friends, some of my male friends they have some story in their past about how there was some sort of like either spoken or unspoken threat that was being made to you need to do this thing and so I'm wondering from your point of view as a sex educator -- what are the things that we can begin to do to teach children about consent, about some of these like bigger notions that hopefully won't be happening in the world in the same way that they are today but there will be some -- hopefully it's just a vapor trail but you know that they might still exist Kait: So that to me brings to mind the work of Resmaa Menakem on somatic abolitionism. Within that, he is talking about a culture shift and bringing it back to the body which we've we've touched on a few times. So how does it feel when someone gets rejected? What does that feel like in their body? What stories does it kick up? What conditioning does it kick up that's theirs but is also historical? And so in the book which is focused on race he spends some time talking about the ways in which white Europeans of old were abusing white Europeans of old but that never got processed and so then we just changed the system, right? I say we because I'm Italian. So it's not just my whiteness that gets kicked up or my white fragility that gets kicked up, it's this whole line of trauma that never went -- received and given -- that is existing there. And so, when it comes to consent, I really think we need a similar approach around culture change and honestly, we need again not to make this super binary but we need men to start stepping up to be part of that. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Kait: Because we see that there are so many ways in which women aren't believed. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Kait: And that that is supported. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: And so part of that answer is needing this culture shift and part of that answer is needing to get more in touch with how the body perceives that rejection because if that is perceived as a threat, what the brain-body does is, Oh God, we're gonna die. We're gonna die. We need to click into a stress response. And in a world where men are supported only in anger, that's the only emotion men, that's really allowed, you're allowed to feel from a societal level. Skipper: Right. Kait: What does that stress response look like? It looks like aggression. And this isn't to give anyone a pass just to be clear. Skipper: Of course. Kait: But I -- what I love about this work is that it brings that new dimension to it. Skipper: Yeah Kait: And it brings that -- that makes a lot of sense, you're basically turned into a feral cat lashing out. Skipper: Mm-hmm. Kait: And that's really awful and it doesn't excuse your behavior but it means how can we start to work with that and interrupt that. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: So that's what comes to mind is that culture shift and that kind of bringing back to to the body and also like having men as not just allies but accomplices. And I know I saw a post recently from Jameelah from "Good Place" around #notallmen but #notallmenspeakup and so we hear you and also where were you when, you know, locker room talk and those types of things. And that gets to the bigger conversation around rape culture, around consent culture, around masculinity, around gender norms, there are just layers upon layers there and one of the ways to approach it is through the somatic work. Skipper: Great, we'll make sure to link to it in the show notes. So, Kait we've sprinted through these three topics in a way but I also want to make sure that -- is there something that you feel like we're leaving out? Is there something you want to circle back on and put a finer point on? Or something else altogether that we just haven't landed on yet? Kait: I don't think so. We did a really good job, I'm proud of us. I'm really proud of us. I think the only thing that I feel that's not said is more of the top three, if there were three things I wish I could leave people with from our talk today, it would be -- shame, communication, and pleasure is healing. Work on the shame, lean into communication, and pleasure is really powerful as a healing force. Skipper: Yeah. I think that's a fantastic sum up. Let me ask one more question. A lot of people when they hear that you do a certain thing, they have certain assumptions. Kait: Yes. Skipper: What are some assumptions that people have about the work that you do? Kait: I love this question. There are so many. How much time do we have? Skipper: (Laughs) Kait: Number one, they think I'm their personal therapist. So I and many of my colleagues will also talk about this where there will be times where we won't, I won't actually say what I do in specifics because what often happens is that phenomenon of people being like, Oh my god, I can talk to you because I can't talk about this because of sexual shame and I just want to know -- Skipper: What's your alias? Ooh, what's the alias that you give? Kait: I usually say I do health education consulting and leave it really simple. And if they ask more detailed questions, I might say reproductive health instead but sometimes I just leave it at that. Skipper: Okay. Kait: It kind of depends but I also have a series if I'm like talking to strangers that there have been a few AirBnB instances where they're asking, What do you do and I'm like health education. And then, Oh do you specialize in anything in particular and I'm like sexual and reproductive health -- there's like a 10-year-old here and I don't know what these parents might freak out. But yeah, so number one is the assumption that like, because we talk about this, we want to talk about it all the time, and that we want to hear your personal story. And again, I have so much empathy for people because there aren't enough places. Thank god there are more and more, right? Passion by Kait is not the only platform out there that's encouraging these conversations, I have the most amazing frickin' colleagues and friends that are in this space. So thankfully, more and more, but we're -- I can't be your therapist. I can't answer your questions through an Instagram DM, it is so unethical. And even as someone who's an educator, not a therapist, it's so unethical without doing a full intake. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Number three, they assume that all sex educators are super kinky, and we're having sex all the time, and we never had any problems with sex at all. And it is super easy for us. And we don't have any of that bullshit conditioning that we just spent the last 59 minutes talking about -- and that's just simply not true. Not true. I mentioned it earlier, right. I grew up in the same soup, in the same sex-negative, ablest, sexist, racist, fatphobic soup as everyone else. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: For me, it was being lucky enough to have a parent who was open about these topics. Skipper: That's fantastic. Kait: I was in Catholic school from kindergarten through college. Like I got all the messages. Skipper: Wow. Right. Kait: And now living in a disabled body, right. So there are struggles here. And there's can be a lot of shame that comes along with not meeting that expectation sometimes. And so then again, right, that ties back into like, Am I working through? Oh, my gosh, will people think I'm a scam because I'm not doing X, Y, and Z. Because it doesn't interest me. And that's okay. Right? Because there's no normal, there's just more or less common. So yeah, I think those are the big ones. I think we can probably leave it there. Skipper: Right. Kait: Those are the big ones. There's almost like a putting us on a pedestal. And I'm like, No, we're just normal people who sometimes get bloated after dinner and genuinely are like, I know, we made that plan but, honestly, I feel so just like blah, I just want to watch a movie and go to sleep. Skipper: Sure. Kait: Just a little easier to have those conversations because we have more practice. Skipper: That's right. So let's get into the closing questions. Kait: I love it. Skipper: Kait, what's one of the most important lessons that you've learned in your life so far? And this can pertain to your life in general, or it can pertain to your work to something -- sometimes the way that I asked this is, what's something you wish you learned earlier? Kait: Fuck the shoulds. We're gonna circle right back to it. Skipper: Let's do it. Kait: Right, we teach what we most need to know/be reminded of. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: Yeah, fuck the shoulds -- around business, around sex, around bodies, around relationships. Just fuck the sheds. It's really catchy. It's easy to say, It's nice and has *umph*. Yeah, that's the number one thing. I think of the times in my life when the shoulds held me back in ways that I wasn't even aware of, right, or they show up as comparison, they show up as imposter syndrome. They show up as hiding. Skipper: Yeah. Yeah. Kait: They show up as codependency, they show up is, you know, attention-seeking -- they show up in so many ways. And yeah, fuck the shoulds. Skipper: Love it. As a sidebar, and not to get too off track here, a friend of mine recently, Andy Polaine, he was talking about the initial research on imposter syndrome in the late 1970s. And when this notion was first published, it was called imposter phenomenon. I think it sounds so much better than syndrome. Syndrome sounds like something dire. Or some condition that you should avoid at all costs. Kait: Yeah. Skipper: But phenomenon, it sounds more like something that just happens. Kait: Yeah. Skipper: Everyone, me, you, and everyone else. Some people can flit it away and some people are better at it than others. But yeah, others have to work through it. It's just a thing. Kait: There's a really good Harvard Business Review article on imposter syndrome last week that came out and that also looked at the ways in which -- is it imposter syndrome, or is it oppression? Really well done and it gets to that point you just made around like being able to flit it away and sometimes you can't put it away because it's not actually coming from you. Skipper: I see. Kait: (Sound of brain blown) Skipper: Ooh, we'll link to that. Ooh, I like it. Kait: It has nothing to do with sex but everything has to do with sex, right? Sex is connected to you, impacted by, and impacts everything else. So if you're feeling like an imposter, or you're dealing with a bunch of shit at work, that's going to show up as feeling less than in the bedroom as well. Skipper: Like you said, when you walk through that bedroom door, you're gonna carry all that stuff with you. So, Kait, what are two things that you're excited about right now? And the way I'm asking this question, it means something that you're reading that you can't put down? Or something that you're watching or listening to? Kait: Oh, that's a hard one, because I'm doing rewatches then I'm firmly in rewatch comfort mode. Skipper: Okay. Kait: Yeah. Can I be really excited about the COVID vaccine? Like, I'm gonna just name that as one. And I'm sciency. So I can get away with it. And as I mentioned to you, before we started recording, I got my first dose. Skipper: You just got your second dose. Kait: Yes, so I am super stoked. Science, COVID vaccines, I'm obsessed, I think it's wonderful. Yeah, I'm just like waiting for the side effects, any side effects to hit. And just, yeah, science in general, I would say the other thing, and this is less entertainment-focused. But I spent much of the last year doing trainings around nervous system support. And in a lot of ways, it felt like a return home to my original area of study -- Skipper: Neuroscience. Kait: And it was at a whole new elevated level because of the really strong intersectional analysis and so really obsessed with making my clients and also the folks in the caves that I lead. And I know you had Jake on here from Caveday, do what I lovingly call weird body shit. Skipper: Ah. Kait: Really obsessed. People doing these weird body things. And then I do them in my life. And they're just different approaches to working with stress, to working with shame, to working with big emotions, working with burnout and shut down. Skipper: Yeah. Kait: That in many ways embodies that ethos of fucking the shoulds, because they go against a lot of the mainstream narratives around the burnout and stress response and things like that, and have really felt like a homecoming for me and my clients. And so it's been really magical for my own life, and also in working with others to see how powerfully they work, particularly in the cave setting where there are 100 people and I'm like, Okay, and now we're gonna pretend the floor is lava for two minutes. But like, here are some rules around it and bringing that aspect of play and pleasure and it's so fun. I talk about it forever. That's what you want you wanted me to say? Skipper: That's exactly what the question is geared towards. So is there anything that we can link to for people who want more information? Kait: I have a piece that I recently did. That's -- the clickbaity title is, Six movements for better sex or exercises for better sex. Skipper: Okay. Kait: But it's actually secretly nervous system support because I know you're gonna click and then I'm gonna be like, and here's the good stuff. And then I can also link -- I think I link to my teacher in that, yeah. Skipper: Okay, cool. Kait: Yeah. Skipper: So Kait, where can people find out more about you? You know, we've talked about a few things -- we've talked about your website and your business but where are other places that people can find out about you and or your work? Kait: The main place is paissionbykait.com. And Kait is K-A-I-T, which are also the social media handles. I would say Instagram is the most active. Skipper: Okay. Kait: Those are the two main places or you could join me in a cave to do weird body shit with Caveday -- Skipper: Caveday, Kait: Yeah, passionbykait.com and the passionbykait Instagram are the main places. And it's just remembering -- one of the perks in spelling Kate Kait, it means that everything is that super easy. Skipper: Well, Kait, thank you so much for this conversation, you are a delight to talk to. And I've learned so much. So I appreciate you making the time and space. Kait: Yeah, thank you so so much for having me. And it was a pleasure. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How This Works. Please subscribe or follow us and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show. And it would mean so much if you could tell one other person about it and why they should listen. You can find How This Works online at howthisworks.show -- that's three words no dashes. Again. That's howthisworks.show. We're also active on social media. I hope that you learned something from my conversation with Kait. I did for sure. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: Hopefully, it's just a vapor trail but you know that they might still exist Kait: Yeah, what comes to mind is as we're talking is actually Resmaa Menakem's work on somatic abolitionism. Skipper: Okay. Kait: We're gonna -- that is a really loud siren so -- The joys of recording in New York City. Skipper: I remember New York City, yeah. Kait: Wouldn't change it for the world -- okay, I think it's far enough away. Skipper: Yep. Kait: I'm going to restate that -- is it far enough out from you? Skipper: I can't really hear it so I think we're good.