[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. Thanks for tuning into How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about a topic that they know an awful lot about. Today, I have Cassandra Carlopio with me. We're going to talk about meditation, sleep, and how to use these to great effect in the midst of everything that's going on in our world today. Thank you for making time and space to be here, Cassandra. Cassandra Carlopio: You're so welcome. I'm thrilled to be here, Skipper. Skipper: So I'd love to start off getting to know a little bit about you. And in that vein, we like to start with pronouns, my pronouns are he and him. How would you like to be referred? Cassandra: She and her, thank you. Skipper: Sure -- so tell us some things about you. Who are you? Cassandra: So I am an Aussie, as you can hear from my accent, but I live in Los Angeles. I am a lover of all things relaxation and sleep-related -- a big lover of nature. And don't ask me whether I like the mountains better or the beach because I love it all. Skipper: The answer's, "Yes." Cassandra: Yes, exactly. Skipper: Okay. Cassandra: I love movement. I love dancing. I love hiking, I love running. I am really passionate about conservation and protecting the environment and our planet. I'm a loyal friend and partner -- so many different parts to me. Skipper: Yeah. So Cassandra, what's something about you that people might not guess? Something that you feel comfortable sharing, of course. Cassandra: Sure. That I have a side of me that is extremely competitive and has recently delved into extreme sports. Which one of them being kiteboarding and kite surfing. And so -- Skipper: Is that the notion of being on a board in the water and you're holding on to a kite? Cassandra: Yes, that's exactly -- exactly it. You're harnessing the power of the wind, the board interacting with the water, and then using the wind to fly over the water. Skipper: Wow. I've seen some people in the San Francisco Bay, and around the coastline here doing that. And it's fascinating to me. Cassandra: There are some good beginner places to learn just off San Francisco. There's also more advanced kiting up there. Yeah, that's a really good kiting community in San Francisco. Skipper: Is that what the shorthand is? Kiting? Cassandra: Kiting. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I'm very new to this. Don't quote me on that. Yeah, it's been a recent discovery. And I'm hooked. I just love everything about it. Skipper: Oh, nice. I love your vote of confidence and your enthusiasm for it. Cassandra: I highly recommend it. But I also caution people, it's not one of those things that you can just pick up and grab a kite and just give it a go out on the water. It takes a lot of instruction and learning and lessons. And obviously, there's a lot of danger involved. And so, it takes longer to learn than you think it's going to. But it's worth it in my opinion. Skipper: Okay. So Cassandra, let's get into our subject matter. What are we talking about today? I know I gave some of it away in the intro to the show, but I want to hear you say what are the things that we're going to talk about that you know very well. Cassandra: So, sleep. Sleep is such a broad, broad topic. And I can speak to a lot of it. But my real interest is around psychology, a piece of sleep, what's going on with the mind, what's going on with the nervous system, how mental health interacts with sleep. And then you also mentioned meditation, which is one of my main modes of working with people to help improve sleep but also to help improve everything during your waking hours as well. It's not -- meditation has so many applications as I'm sure you're aware of. The way I've used meditation specifically to help people address issues around sleep. So the playing field is wide -- sleep, meditation, mental health. And you also mentioned, you know, these times that we're in, which is so unusual that have been kind of stretched on now for at least a year or so is playing a big role in people's mental health and their sleep. Skipper: And just starting this conversation with you, this is one of those moments that I wish that this was a video podcast, because not only are you such an articulate speaker, but there are also so many things that you're doing with your hands in terms of really bringing home the point. So I wish that this were video and not audio, not just audio rather. (Pauses) So Cassandra, how did you first get interested in this notion of sleep? And you know, one of the ways to help get better sleep is through meditation. How did you become interested in the subject matter? Cassandra: I love this question. I've always had a very good relationship with sleep, thank goodness. And I'm trained as a psychologist and I was working in private practice. And then I moved to California, and I was teaching meditation and a big part of meditation is you're supposed to keep people awake. And what I found was, I was focusing and putting a lot of energy into trying to keep people awake. And then at the end of every class, I would have people ask me some version of, Hey, Cass, will you come into my bedroom and told me to sleep tonight? And you know, I would find some funny way of like, brushing that comment to the side. But after a year, almost hearing this four or five times a week, got me thinking, Okay, what is going on here? How can people fall asleep in the middle of the day on a hardwood floor with other people around them, sometimes more often than not snoring? And myself talking the entire time? How are they falling asleep -- Skipper: Sure. Cassandra: -- there in that environment. But having great difficulty falling asleep at night, with the quiet environment, right. And so then I got really curious about what's going on in the nervous system, what's happening when someone's in a deep meditative state, the feeling of safety, and how that's different from a lot of people's experience at nights in the bedroom alone. So it kind of led me down this research drawing on my academic past, I dug into the research and found there's very little out there about the role of the nervous system and sleep, there's very little communication you could say, between the field of sleep medicine and the field of psychology and the field of meditation. So I took it upon myself to educate myself. And along the way, I met a lot of really wonderful practitioners, particularly in the world of sleep medicine, and understanding that whole field. And then yeah, kind of snowballed -- one thing led to another and now I'm really deep and so passionate about this field of sleep, the whole sleep medicine field, but then also what's going on psychologically, what's going on in the body, what's going on with the nervous system, and the role that meditation can play in helping people sleep at night. Skipper: Yeah, that's a big, that's a big subject matter. And I love that you broke down a little bit of the sort of the how, I'm gonna ask you a question, and it might seem very elementary. Why is sleep important? Cassandra: That's a fantastic question. And it deserves, let's say a week's response, but I'll give you the very brief high-level answer to that -- sleep is foundational for our waking health. And there isn't a major system in the body that isn't negatively impacted by lack of sleep. And consequently, you know, positively impacted by quality sleep on a physiological level, on an emotional psychological level, on everything is impacted by sleep and so much repairing happens while we sleep. Skipper: Okay. And I would add on to that and say that anyone who's experienced some period of insomnia or challenge with getting sleep, I think that we know what that feels like, right? We're not getting enough sleep, we're not sleeping deeply enough. All of those things. It just feels -- I can't remember the phrase but there's a line in the movie "Fight Club" where Edward Norton's character is talking about, you know, this idea of insomnia. And it's like this -- he's standing in front of a Xerox machine -- and it's almost like that idea where it's like a copy of a copy of a copy. I think after a while, we begin feeling like copies of ourselves. Cassandra: Yeah, really well said. And then the thing that's always interesting to me is people who sleep well generally -- and I count myself as one of those people which I'm very grateful for -- is that when we get a poor night's sleep, we feel the effect tremendously. The next day, I notice my mood, I notice my thoughts get distorted, I notice my energy is all over the place, I notice how I eat is potentially different, you know, I feel the effect of it, or if I'm doing an international -- back when we were all traveling, you know, traveling between the US and Australia, and missing a good night's sleep because of jet lag, you know, feeling the effect of that, right. But the folks with chronic insomnia are in a state of serious sleep deprivation. But the thing that is always really kind of surprising and heartbreaking to me is that's become their new normal, they've been habituated to that feeling of being sleep deprived, not having a full clarity of mind, not having full energy, and it's just become their new normal, and they actually will consistently underrate their level of performance because it's just become the norm for them. So one of the things that I am so passionate about sharing with folks that fall into that camp is you have no idea how good you can feel during the day when you start to handle this area of sleep. Skipper: Yeah. So breaking it into two different -- I mean, there are many ways to split this hair but the idea of there are people who suffer from -- How should? ...people who have the capacity to get more sleep, but they're getting -- but the quality of sleep they're getting is not very high. So there are those people. There are some people who don't even set themselves up for success, who are going to bed at 11 o'clock at night, setting their alarm for five o'clock in the morning -- so not getting enough sleep from the get-go. Can you talk a little bit more about -- because we do we live in this world where -- and it depends on which culture you're a part of. But this idea of overwork being this badge -- of 12 hours today, whatever it is, I worked 60 hours this week, how does that play into this notion of not setting ourselves up for success, as it pertains to the rest it is that our brain and our bodies need? Cassandra: Yeah, so really, there's -- like you're saying we can divide people into two camps -- there are people who, even if they give themselves the opportunity to sleep, the right amount of hours in bed, they've done good sleep hygiene, they've kind of given themselves the best chance, the best set up for sleep. And there are those people who even when they have all of that still can't get quality sleep. There's some sort of underlying issue going on there. And then what you're talking about is, you know, such a large percentage of the population, particularly in America and other Western cultures, where we're just not even giving ourselves the chance to get a quality seven to nine hours sleep because of work, because of technology, because of you know, and there are many different kinds of factors at play there. But I think what you're speaking to, which is such a key piece is there's kind of this cultural narrative that to need to sleep and need to rest is somehow weak. And that, you know, there's this badge of honor and bravado around -- Oh, I only got three hours or four hours of sleep last night. And you know, it's interesting when I talk to people, I know when I went through my education, there were a lot of my friends were medical students, that is for sure true in the medical student population. I just spoke with a new client who's an architect and he said the same thing about when he was going through architecture school, this huge kind of focus on and bragging about getting minimal sleep that was even true in the psychology department, which is yeah horrifying in and of itself, there is this kind of cultural idea that not needing a lot of sleep makes you some strong human being when the evidence just is completely contrary to that. Skipper: Yeah. Yeah, that's an excellent point. And it sounds like one of the things that I hear you saying is around the notion of getting enough sleep is setting yourself up for success during your waking hours. Cassandra: Yes. Skipper: Okay. Cassandra: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, every kind of metric for performance during the day, whether it's your ability to focus, whether it's your energy level, whether it's even your immune system, or your ability to learn, your ability to emotionally process emotional content, all of that is directly affected by the quality of sleep that you get at night. Skipper: Yeah. And so one of the ways in which you can set yourself up for success during your waking hours, it's how I first became introduced to you as a person is as a meta -- is as a meditation teacher. Can you talk to us a little bit about how meditation and then I want to zoom back out to a more holistic view, but about how meditation specifically can be a vehicle to get the sleep, the relaxation that we need to recharge? Cassandra: Sure. So one of the main kind of barriers to quality sleep for people is stress and anxiety. And also something that we talk about as bedtime thoughts, also, which contributed to stress and anxiety. Okay, so meditation is the perfect antidote to those things, right? I mean, I know you know, maybe there, some of our listeners are also deep in the meditation world, but you know, we part of meditation is learning to deal with thoughts, learning how to calm the body, calm the mind to put your body in the state from which it can fall asleep, okay? Because if your body is in a stressed state, or an anxious state, and you have thoughts looping, about the future, about the pandemic, about a job interview that you have, about finances, if your mind is looping on stressful or anxious thoughts, and your body is in a stressed state -- Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: It's really difficult to fall asleep from that place. And we can go in deeper and deeper into that if you like. But meditation is one of the best ways that I know -- and it's not just from my knowledge, from research to is to deal with stressful and anxious thoughts, and to put the body in a calm and relaxed state so that your body can fall asleep. Skipper: Yeah. So it's not even let's say, you're someone who -- and you mentioned me, as someone who meditates I would counter that I think I'm terrible at meditating. I don't feel like and maybe this goes back to this notion of this achievement gap that a lot of us feel in our lives. I don't feel like I'm very good at it. Well, what would you say to someone who says that to you? Or posits that idea to you? That, Oh, I would love to meditate but I don't like it. I'm not very good at it. What would you say to someone who presents that to you? Cassandra: I hear that all the time. And it's one of my favorite things to respond to it. Because there is this mythology that we have about a) what meditation is and b) what it's supposed to be like, you know, and I'm so anti-dogmatic. And I'm also really passionate about educating people about meditation, because so many people say some version of what you just said to me, you know, Oh, Cass I can't meditate. I have, you know, too many thoughts. And what's so interesting to me is everybody thinks they're the only ones that have a bunch of thoughts and have great difficulty focusing on the breath. And you know, I'm in a unique position because people are talking to me about their internal experiences every day. So to me, it's just -- Skipper: Sure. Cassandra: Well sure, everybody has a ton of thoughts, most of which they wouldn't want anybody else to hear and think they're particularly bad at meditation, when in actual fact, to have a functioning brainstem which means you're awake and conscious, you're going to have thoughts. Skipper: Sure. Cassandra: And, you know, research shows that we have somewhere between 60 to 80,000 thoughts a day, which works out to be almost one every second. And, you know, so that when people tell me, Oh, I'm having a bunch of thoughts, and I say, Fantastic your brainstem is functional, this is a good thing. It's just this myth that to meditate means to clear your mind. Really, it's a big issue for people when they're starting a meditation practice or even wanting to continue with a meditation practice. Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: So it's more about learning to change your relationship with your thoughts, letting the thoughts be there because they're going to be, and doing something else with your attention. But yeah, anywhere that you or anybody else has the idea that they're a, quote, unquote, bad meditator because they have a bunch of thoughts and their attention is bouncing around. I want to reframe that as, congratulations, you have a healthy brainstem and brain, and now we can get to work on exploring. Okay, so now, what do you do with that? What do you do with the thoughts? How do you train your attention? What techniques do you use? And how can you be okay with the fact that you're going to have a lot of thoughts? Skipper: Yeah, I would imagine that this is not the right way to say this, I was already to say that, you know, you as someone who also has a healthy brainstem, but you know, you also have your own thoughts that pervade your day? Cassandra: Yes. Skipper: One thought every second -- how do you help to filter through those and not be distracted by those things that are pinging around in your brainstem? Cassandra: It's a really good question. And I said, a combination of practice, I meditate daily in some version or some form. And also coming to a place of understanding that just because I think something doesn't mean it's true. Skipper: Okay. Cassandra: And that not all thoughts are negative. In fact, we can have some very inspirational, valuable thoughts. So again, you know, with meditation, and this mythology of trying to clear your mind of thoughts -- some thoughts are really valuable. And we need to learn to recognize when we're having a valuable thought, like, you know, just a base example is if you're sitting in meditation, and then you suddenly have the thought, Oh, I left the oven on, you know, that's not a thought you want to just like, cross out and return to your breath over to let the clouds pass across the sky, that's a thought you want to register as, Oh, that's an important thought, let me get up off the cushion, go turn the oven off, and then reassess what I need to do next. Skipper: Right. Cassandra: You know, and that's, you know, an example we can all relate to. But sometimes, I've had incredibly inspirational thoughts in meditation about a program that I wanted to release or a problem that I was trying to find a solution to something in the apartment, or, I remember that I didn't send my grandmother birthday card, or, you know, whatever, some thoughts need to be written down, there are thoughts that need to be respected their thoughts that needed to need to have the time to unfold and take us somewhere. So I've through my practices have become routine or reasonable, reasonably familiar with identifying when it's just like a distracted and nonsense thought that needs to be not given the microphone, so to speak. And when it's a thought that's valuable and does need to be given the microphone and the time and attention. Skipper: Okay. Cassandra: So as I'm going throughout my day, I'm aware that I'm having thoughts come and go and I'm getting better every day at identifying, okay, those are thoughts to listen to, and these are thoughts. So just like let them continue on and not give them much attention. Skipper: Okay, so really parsing out the signal to noise ratio, because there are going to be things that pop into your brain that are part of the noise, but not part of the signal that you need to pay attention to. Cassandra: Exactly. And the second piece to that is having a strong breath sensing or body sensing practice because one of the things that I hear and see all the time in this meditation field -- which has become so popular, and I'm so grateful for that -- but a lot of people, when they're teaching meditation don't give you something to focus on. So if you're not going to focus on your thoughts, you have to give the mind essentially something to focus on, which is why a lot of practices center around the breath, because it's something that's happening in real-time. And every moment -- Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: Or I also like using body sensations like tingling in your hands or wants in your size, or how the rib cage moves subtly with each breath. So you're giving your attention, something to kind of anchor into, rather than following every thought that comes, you know, across your internal screen. Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: And so I've done a lot of body sensing practices and a lot of breath sensing practices, so that as I'm doing emails, as I'm here, having this conversation with you, I also have my attention on my breath, and my attention at my feet, I'm present in my physical body, which also helps anchor me in this moment, and helps me be less at the effect of transients thoughts and feelings and emotions. Skipper: Yeah. Are there specific things that you do to -- let's say you are in the midst of meditating, and one of these thoughts that might be more important, maybe it's not quite the oven's on, but it might be something more like, I have to remember to do this thing later. Is there a way in which you capture that for yourself? So that way you can remember it later. But you can let it be one of those clouds in the sky that just moves through? Cassandra: Yes, so generally, I'll have a notepad and paper. I'm still a hand-drawn list person. Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: And so I'm gonna have one next to me right now, I'll always have some sort of like pen and paper close to me. So they're just like you said if it's one of those thoughts that's necessary, but it doesn't need to be acted on right now, I'll jot it down, which is something I also recommend for people when they're having issues falling asleep. Because when you're falling asleep, often we can be reminded of things that we forgot during the day, or something that we have to do tomorrow or something that we need to remember. And if you're trying to hold on to that, it can distract you, or create stress or create anxiety, and just putting it down on paper allows you to then let it go internally. So I really can't overstate the value of having a pen and paper close by. Skipper: Well, the wonderful thing about that notion is that you have recorded it, it is in sight, it will be there for you in the morning, as a reminder of this was a thing that you thought was important last night or yesterday, and then take action on it or capture it in such a way where you can act on it. It won't just fall by the wayside. Cassandra: Exactly. Skipper: Okay. Not to put you on the spot but I wonder if maybe folks who are seasoned meditators or someone who's never really engaged with the practice in a thoughtful way -- can you walk us through a short meditation? Cassandra: I would love to. Skipper: Okay. Cassandra: Absolutely. So, just let yourself get into a comfortable position. And in my anti dogma, an approach that can be whatever physical position feels most comfortable for you, whether that's seated, whether that's lying down, that's you know, standing on your head, whatever it is, whatever is most comfortable for you. And you can also keep your eyes open, if that is more aligned. Cassandra: Or if you're ready, you can let your eyes just blink themselves closed slowly. And then just let yourself arrive, arrive into the room that you're in, to where your body is meeting the ground, or whatever you're resting on. Cassandra: And then just start to notice -- how does your body feel in this moment? Like what's the general mood you could say of your body in this moment? Cassandra: And then notice the general mood of your mind. Notice saying how many or how few thoughts are present quickly or how slowly then moving. And then letting your mind be just as it is. And letting your body be just as it is. Let your attention find your breath. doing your best to not go into any judgment of your breath, or even try to change how your body is naturally breathing, to start to focus in on the feeling of your inhale and the feeling of your exhale. Cassandra: And your attention is going to wander. That's normal. Just each time you notice your attention has wandered away from your breath, kindly bring it back to your breath. Cassandra: And a helpful way to focus in on your breath is to also use a mantra where you just silently repeat a phrase in time with your breath. And I've been enjoying using the mantra, I am here now with each breath so that as you feel your breath come in the silently repeat, I am and as you feel your breath go out, you silently repeat, Here now. Cassandra: Coming back to the mantra and your breath. As many times as you need to. Cassandra: You can let the mantra fade away. Just notice how your body feels now. Cassandra: Notice the general mood of your mind. Now as a result of this brief meditation. Perhaps you can notice a change and perhaps you can't in either way -- just know you took a few minutes to do an internal practice. And then either way, it's a really good thing to do for yourself. And then you can -- when you're ready -- let your eyes blink themselves open from being closed. Bring some movement into your body, maybe have a little stretch and let yourself come back to your more outwardly focused and attentive state. Skipper: I hope that folks who are listening to this were able to take a few minutes and listen and be active in whatever way they thought -- and I can see now why, I mean I've listened to you guide through a meditation or body scan. So I absolutely know why folks are asking you after a class. Will you talk me to sleep? I get it. Thank you for indulging me. I really appreciate it. Cassandra: You're so welcome. Skipper: And as proof positive, I wonder, when you look at the first part of our conversation, premeditation and then post-meditation, will there be a difference in the kind of conversation that we're having, because of the centering, because of the breath awareness, because some of the other pieces that we might have on the other side of it? Um, I wonder -- Cassandra: Yeah, I wonder too. We'll find out. Skipper: Exactly. So Cassandra, what is something that people misunderstand often about the work that you do? Cassandra: Hmm, that's a very good question. I think the first thing that comes to me is that I use meditation to -- just like someone would use a sleeping pill to help people sleep. Cassandra: Okay. Cassandra: Where you can use meditation -- in that way, like as a, you've had an extra stressful day, or you're lying in bed awake, staring at the ceiling, it's been an hour, and you don't feel anywhere close to sleep, you can use meditation as a band-aid or an as-needed kind of tool in your tool chest to help you fall asleep. But what I'm really interested in, and what I work on with my private clients is addressing the underlying root cause as to why they're having trouble falling asleep in the first place. So that you need to rely less on meditation or less on sleeping aids to fall asleep, because I really come from the perspective that sleep is meant to be one of our most familiar, intimate biological rhythms. And that gets interrupted for a whole range of reasons. But then when you address the reasons that the cycle is being interrupted, you should return to sleep, ideally, because that's something that's very familiar, very easy, and is something that people can look forward to, at the end of the day. Skipper: You talked a little bit about the notion of how, once upon a time, in the recent past a year or so ago, being able to travel -- and I wonder, how is your work differently today than it was, let's say, a year, year and a half ago? Cassandra: Hm. Great question. It's shifted dramatically in that everything I'm doing now is online. And before that, I was teaching -- oh goodness, I don't even put a number on it. But most of my clients were in person. I did have some online. So I was seeing clients internationally. So I was already prepared for working on Zoom, which I'm grateful for. But it was a dramatic shift in so much face-to-face human contact to then shifting to everything remote, but it, you know, I was surprised at the ease in which that transition happened for me personally and professionally. And probably because I was already used to working online with clients. And very happily surprised at the results that you could get over a screen and the connection that you can get over a screen versus in person. And I know a lot of people share the sentiment, you know, I miss the in-person and gatherings -- meditating in a big group is a very special, unique experience. But the depth of work I've been able to do with people one on one over a screen, it's been mind-blowing. And personally, because I was seeing so many people in person, I was driving 2, 3, 4 hours a day, sometimes during the week in Los Angeles with traffic and it's been incredible for me. Personally, it's freed up so many hours every day. It's -- Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: You know, I've, the amount of time I spend in a car now is a fraction of what it used to be. And it's improved the quality of my life dramatically. So -- Skipper: I see. Cassandra: That was a really good silver lining that's come out of this whole thing for me. Skipper: Yeah. And Los Angeles traffic is notorious for being terrible all day, but especially during the morning and afternoon rush hours. Cassandra: Yes. Skipper: So, Cassandra, I'm curious, what are ways in the future that you are excited to work? What are things that you're looking forward to? Cassandra: So a continuation of what I'm doing with getting to reach a much wider audience of people from different countries. To continue with that, I'm already getting to work with people from all across the globe. Skipper: That's great. Cassandra: But to continue doing that I also prior to the pandemic, I was traveling a lot with a wonderful medical institute called the Breathe Institute. And we were doing continuing education for all sorts of practitioners, from EMTs, to dental hygienists, to orthodontists. Anyone who's involved with anything to do with the mouth, the airway, disordered breathing during sleep. And so now we've been able to present and provide education to people, in an even wider audience. So I'm really looking forward to continuing to do that. And then I'm also really curious about virtual reality. And I've been in conversation with a few different companies about how to create meditation experiences with it within kind of a VR realm, which is really intriguing to me. So I'm looking forward to that tremendously. Skipper: That's fantastic. And I think a lot of times people use virtual reality or VR as a buzzword and how it's about playing a game. However, I do think that one of the applications about virtual reality is that it is completely immersive. Sight and sound. Cassandra: Right. Yeah, and I think a lot of tech companies and us tech users are very aware of how distracting and addicting technology can be. Skipper: Yeah. Cassandra: But simultaneously to that I really see companies and individuals getting interested in how to use technology to help build connection internally and externally and really use it in a way that is productive and inspiring. And using it in the best way that we can, you know, from all the meditation apps, to language learning apps, to you know, what we can access now, virtually is incredible. And so I see, I see that happening, and I have my own concerns about technology, but I'm also really focusing on how it can be used in a positive and productive way. And so that's where I'm going to put my energy and my focus is into how do we make it work for us and build more meaningful lives. I think there's a lot of opportunity in that realm as the technology advances. Skipper: That's great. So I want to leave some time and space -- we have some closing questions. But I also want to make sure Cassandra that there aren't things that you want to get into, that we haven't talked about yet. We've talked about this notion of quality of sleep being linked to stress and anxiety and pain management if that's an area that someone is concerned with, even performing better as a human being in the world, right. Whether it's an athletic performance, or it's something around I want to move through my day easier. What what are other things have we left anything untalked about? Cassandra: I'd love to just make a point that for someone who's been struggling with sleep challenges for any period of time, it's almost insulting to say, Oh, all you need to do is just prioritize your sleep that -- you know, I have one of my, one of my girlfriends who struggles with sleep, someone gifted her the book, "Why We Sleep" by Matthew Walker, which I recommend highly, but with a big caveat, which is, if someone has chronic insomnia or chronic sleep issues, do not give them that book. And don't just tell them, Oh, all you need to do is prioritize your sleep or read this book, which outlines in incredible detail and very articulately, all the damaging effects of sleep deprivation, which if someone already has trouble sleeping, and has anxiety, that's just gonna fan the flames, right. So I have a little chip on my shoulder about this, like, you know, someone who's been struggling with sleep issues, has already tried all of the sleep hygiene, knows that the negative effects of sleep deprivation, because they're living it, day in and day out. Skipper: First hand. Cassandra: Exactly. And sleep issues are complicated, a lot of the time. And nuanced. And anything from having any sort of breathing issue, any sort of obstructive sleep apnea, any type of chronic snoring, anything going on structurally, with the jaw, anything going on with the tongue, anything going on with the bite, anything going on with the actual physical size of someone's airway, all has a huge effect on whether someone can relax and breathe, and sleep. So I always invite people, if they've had long-term sleep issues, to really go get a thorough medical assessment from their doctor or get referred to a sleep doctor and really get the help that you need. Because it's really difficult to do it on your own. And if you don't find a practitioner initially, who understands you, keep going, like a therapist, if you don't jive with your therapist, don't give up on therapy, go find another therapist and another one, another one until you get one that works for you. Right, it's the same thing. And you know, sleep medicine, like go until you find someone who really will sit with you listen and help you come up with a plan. Because like I said, sleep issues can be really complicated and nuanced, and really need a good team to help resolve them. So similarly, with meditation, you know, if someone's got obstructive sleep apnea, meditation is not going to do anything for them, it's not the right solution, they really need to get that addressed by a professional in that field. Yeah, I just kind of say all of that to remind people that sleep issues are difficult and complicated, and create a lot of suffering and to go get the professional support that you need. But to kind of circle back, if you can sleep fine, and you're not giving yourself the hours in bed to get the sleep that you need, then go read Matthew Walker's book, why we sleep, get yourself motivated to get the sleep that you need, use meditation, use all the things that you need to really prioritize your sleep. Because for those people it's an easy fix. It's like you have no idea how good you could feel during the day if you just shifted your emphasis and gave yourself the chance to get good sleep. Skipper: That's a wonderful reminder that there's no magic formula to getting better sleep. Cassandra: Yes. Skipper: It's going to be different for everyone. That's a great thing to call out. Cassandra: Actually, I see these articles all the time that are like, Oh, do these four things for better sleep and I shake my head -- sure, for the one person that works well, great, but it's almost demeaning and insulting to people who really have chronic sleep issues. Those four things about keeping your bedroom dark, cool, and whatever else are valuable, but they're not going to address the underlying cause. So let's, like you said, let's say it like it is -- there's no magic formula for sleep. It's different for everybody and it's a really worthwhile area to take on and to improve. Skipper: Yeah. So, Cassandra, I'd love to get into some of the closing questions that we go through with everyone who's on the show, I think we could talk so much more about the importance of sleep, how meditation plays into that, how some of the medical challenges that people may not even know that they're facing can play into that. But we're coming to the end of our time together. What's one of the most important lessons that you've learned in your life so far, this can be specific to the quality of sleep, and meditation, or it can be just something else, generally. Cassandra: Goodness, so many things. There's a lot of information available. And this is, you know, relevant to sleep. But also relevant to everything outside of sleep, too, is that there's so much information available, and there are so many different experts in so many different fields and that it's incredibly valuable to learn and to be a student, and to gather information and to read and to listen to podcasts and to take courses and I'm about to embark on a Ph.D., I value education highly. And nobody's walking in your shoes, you have to kind of synthesize what you've learned, what you're learning, what's out there. But also take everything with a grain of salt and really filter it through your own experience. And, you know, yeah, nobody's walked your path, you're walking your path. So balance the external knowledge and information with real lived, internal experience. Yeah, that's been a really big one for me to value both. And use both the internal knowledge and knowledge that comes from external sources. Skipper: A sort of "Yes and..." approach. Cassandra: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Skipper: So what are a couple of things that you're excited about right now in terms of maybe something you're reading or watching? Or somehow consuming in a way? Cassandra: I just picked up "Atomic Habits". Skipper: Oh, yeah. Cassandra: I feel like everybody is reading "Atomic Habits" right now. And I love it. It is such a good reminder of how human psychology works, and how habits work, and how they can work for us or against us, and how to take such a high level of self-responsibility to create the habits that you want in your life. And it's really reminding and inspiring me to look at the small little actions that I do throughout the day because they add up in the long run, Skipper: For sure. And it's absolutely on my to-do list, rather on my to-read list so -- So Cassandra, where can people find out more about you? We've talked about a few things -- you have a website, which we'll link to in the show notes -- what are other places where can people find you? Cassandra: My website is probably the best place to find out everything that I'm doing, you'll link it, but it's www.cassandracarlopion.com. And on there have links to where you can find my recorded content, which is all over YouTube and Spotify and various meditation apps, Insight Timer, Aura, so on and so forth. I have a lot of free content out there. You can also find information about I do these weekly guided meditations live on Zoom you can find out about joining those. And I have all my social links and contact on the website. Skipper: Awesome. Well, thank you Cass for making time and space for our conversation today. It's been so great connecting with you. And then I hope that it's been helpful for other people who are listening in. Cassandra: Thank you so much for having me, asking great questions, doing what you're doing, sharing this podcast, and I'm grateful to have had this time with you. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How This Works. Please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show. And it would mean so much if you could tell just one other person about the show and why they should listen to it. You can find How This Works online at howthisworks.show -- it's three words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media does its thing. I hope that you learned something from my conversation with Cass. For sure, I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: And I also want to make sure that I get your name pronunciation right because sometimes it doesn't read the way that some people might think. Cassandra Car-low-pea-oh. Cassandra: That was perfect, great. It's phonetic but it freaks people out because of the spelling and the length but that was perfect. Carlopio.