[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. Thanks for listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about a topic that they know incredibly well. And today, I have Sally McRae with me. And we're going to talk about being a runner and specifically an ultrarunner -- and we'll break down what that means. She's also a running coach for others. Thanks for making time to be here today, Sally. Sally McRae: Thank you for having me, Skipper. Skipper: We start our show by getting to know our guest. So Sally, who are you? Will you tell us some things about you? Sally: Yeah (laughs). I am a wife. I am a mother of two children -- well, actually -- they're teenagers now. And this is their birthday month, they're going to be 13 and 15. Skipper: Oh, nice. Sally: This month, yes. Skipper: Happy early birthday. Sally: Thank you. And then, let's see -- I feel like I have my hands in so many different things. But yeah, I'm a professional mountain runner, mountain ultra trail runner, and I am a running coach. I do a little bit of speaking, a little bit of writing, a little bit of mentoring, and I'll just go ahead and pause there. Skipper: That's a lot of things. Sally: (Laughs) I do a lot of coaching in different ways. So sometimes I don't even know how to put it because I'm an iFit trainer on NordicTrack, I'm a Nike Run Club coach on the app, you see a lot of my coaching stuff across all different platforms so -- Skipper: Yeah. Cool. But what's something about you that people might not guess, something that you feel comfortable sharing? Sally: Hmm, something that people might not guess? Well, it's funny because most people would not guess that I'm a runner. I live night and day in my workout gear. And because of that, you know, it's a great way to strike up conversations with people in the grocery store, at the dog park, or something like that. So it is something that always humors me but is something that I really love is that I don't necessarily look like a runner. And more typically, people think that I'm either a bodybuilder, a cross fitter, I've gotten cage fighter. And so it's really exciting to me that I get to be in this space as a pro in a way that people wouldn't expect. And I really think looking back on my life, I operate a lot in many areas of my life like that. So when I go on podcasts, you know, we always have conversations about how I juggle being a mom and a pro athlete, how do I do what I do, but I have a lot of passions and loves that I don't get to talk about a lot. So I guess, aside from not looking so much like a runner that people wouldn't guess right away but also I have a really big love and a passion for orphans and orphan care. And I have spent many years working in that field, whether in the foster care system as a counselor or just traveling around the world and helping out in orphanages and in impoverished areas. That is a huge love and passion of mine. Skipper: That's great. That is an area that I think needs a lot of attention in the world right now. So -- Sally: Absolutely, yes, the defenseless, the ones that don't have voices, the forgotten, there's a lot of things I feel like in our world right now that we are so intensely centered on and some of it comes back to our pride and our hurt and bitterness. And there are millions and millions of forgotten hearts all over this world. And we can make such a great impact by caring and loving for the very people in our homes, but also by taking a chance and reaching out to those that have no one to protect and love them. So I love any cause that is focused on that. Skipper: Well, I didn't know that about you. And I appreciate that you're doing that work. So thank you. Sally: Yeah, absolutely. Skipper: So, Sally, I teed this up a little bit in our introduction but what is the thing that we're talking about today? What is the thing that you're going to talk about that's how this works? Sally: Well, I think it's twofold -- it's ultrarunning in general and then being an athlete as well as a coach. I think in the ultrarunning world, you know, I'd never heard about it. I still meet a lot of people that have no idea what an ultra is or why people do it or even all the different ways in which athletes perform in it because it's -- an ultra is essentially anything longer than the marathon, which is 26.2 miles. Skipper: Yeah, I was just gonna ask. Okay, great, yeah. Sally: So because of that, and you know, an ultra could be 27 miles, it can be 250 miles. And you do see races that are run at those distances. They're stage races. So where people will run, you know, they might sign up for a six-day stage race, it's 300 miles long. And you know, they're running 50 miles every day to get to that finish line. I personally love the 100-mile race and, you know, 100-mile races, they're run on roads. So flat roads, people will do races like that -- they're run on in the hills and foothills around lakes, but they're also run at altitude, they're run in the Alps. I particularly really love big mountain races. So the bigger the mountain, the more that I love to do it, the sport has brought me and allowed me to see some of the most beautiful places all over the world on my two feet. And that's really why I like the 100-mile distance, I just get to see more of the world. Skipper: Okay. How did you get started running? So never mind ultrarunning for right now, but how did you get started running? Were you into track and field? Were you in sports in school? How'd you start? Sally: So yeah, I grew up in a family of seven. Soccer was -- I feel like almost in the entire world -- soccer is like a pretty common sport that kids just play in the neighborhood or at school locally, recreationally. I know from -- Skipper: Not a lot of equipment, easy to pick up a game... Sally: Yeah, totally. And you can include a lot of people. So you know, it makes sense that it's so popular. But for our family, you know, we didn't have a lot growing up, especially coming from Southern California, I think people would probably have referred to our family as the lower of the low-income families. So soccer was a great sport for us. Because you know, you could sign up and you know, your sister was free, or in our case that my dad was a coach and a referee. And so I think all five of us kids were able to just play soccer for free, which is awesome. So I grew up playing soccer, but there were local running races around us. And so I would hop in on those races. So I started doing like 1k, one kilometer, which is less than a mile races when I was seven years old. And I was pretty fast. I think from the time I was in kindergarten, I knew I had this speed. I could beat all the boys like I was, you know if there was ever any type of PE or anything, I was always the fastest. And that kind of carried me through junior high. And so I really loved running but I liked the sport of soccer better. I love the team. I love having a ball at my feet and scoring -- running was just a part of it. And so once I got to high school, I really had this dream of becoming a professional soccer player. And our coach at that time wanted us to stay in shape. And so he really urged us to either do track or cross country. So I was a sprinter in high school and any of my friends that ran anything beyond the 400 meter I thought was just crazy because it was just so long and boring. Yeah. Skipper: Sure. Sally: And so I was a sprinter in high school. And then I played soccer throughout high school throughout college. And then when I graduated from college, I was an English teacher. And I just started running because I still loved to train. I had this dream that kind of died out because of some family tragedies that happened. And so I stopped pursuing that dream. And so I love to train and I thought, you know what, I'm going to sign up for a marathon. Why not? And everyone thought I was crazy. Because it's like Sally, you play soccer, you're not a marathoner, and that kind of like stoked the fire a little bit for me. So I would run like one a year -- Skipper: Someone saying you can't do it. Yeah. Sally: And so that's kind of how the journey of running started for me. Now that's a whole other story of how I discovered ultrarunning. Yeah. Skipper: I wonder -- so you talked a little bit about the competitive nature of running. And you know, it was something that you did that, you talked a little bit in your intro piece about how you find peace and especially like on these longer runs. So what speaks to you about running? Sally: I think overall, it's something that I have genuinely enjoyed since I was a little girl and I feel like -- Skipper: Okay. Sally: That is definitely something that as humans we're drawn to something but we don't always know why. I think of my dad and my brother, they can pick up any instrument and play it. They can play by ear music, notes are hieroglyphics to me, but they're brilliant at music, and they never had lessons and they can sing. They can -- they're incredible. And my son has that as well. He's always had that since the time he was a baby. He's just been drawn to music and he's got this amazing beat and he can play the drums and the piano and it's just incredible. And he's never had formal lessons. And so I think with running, that's what I had. I had this pull, this desire to want to move quickly. And I loved being fast, especially as a little girl, like there's that recklessness of just going as hard and as fast as you can. But realizing that my feet could take me places, I spoke earlier about some things that had happened, things in my family where it had changed the course of my dreams in my life. But, you know, I grew up in a rough home, my dad was pretty displeased with me and he was pretty violent. And so running was also something that just made me feel free. I know that, like, when I was a kid, it was something that not only made me feel free, but it was just fun, too. So it was, if we played tag or we had a race, I love to win. So I had this competitive spirit. So it kind of fed a lot of different things that are natural about me that I'm drawn to both in sport and -- but when it came to endurance running was as I got older, you know, that became my time where I could just think, where I could meditate where I could just disconnect from technology, from traffic signals, from everything, and just listen to the sound of my feet, listen to my breath, and let my mind think about things without being interrupted. I think overall, I see running as such a gift. Skipper: So you sign up for your first marathon. You fall in love with running, you're taking it more seriously. What happens next? How do you make the jump from running in a marathon, which is a huge thing, I've never run more than 24 miles in my life. So -- Sally: Awesome. Skipper: I haven't gotten to the marathon stage yet. I want to get there. Sally: So close. Skipper: Yeah. So how do you make the jump from I signed up for a marathon, like how did that feel, what came next? How did you get to ultrarunning? Sally: Yeah, this story isn't so extravagant. It's just, it is a part of just who I am. From the time I was a little girl, I'm really curious, curious about how things work, why people are the way they are both in action and thought. And as a little girl, I remember having so many conversations with my mom, like these deep questions -- I wanted to know, I talked to earlier about orphans. And I remember learning about orphans when I was little and that, that question -- why are they orphans? Like, where are they? Where are their mommy and daddy? Like, that doesn't make sense to me. And can we go find them? Can we go help them, you know, but then just like I loved watching Discovery Channel too, and in watching animals and the way they interact. So I think for me, curiosity is always kind of driven me to go and discover something. And when it came to ultrarunning at this time, I was just doing one marathon a year. I wasn't trying to pursue a professional career. I was teaching, I was coaching soccer, I was newly married, and then at that time, my kids were babies -- actually, at this time I was also running my own fitness business. So my kids were babies. And I started my own fitness business so that I could be a stay-at-home mom, which was really important to me. And so I was getting all these fitness magazines and running magazines to make sure I'm staying on top of the industry. And I loved reading about running and there was an article in there about ultrarunning and these people that would run 100-mile races and my first thought was like, Wait, what? That's insane. Why? Why would people do that? I've never heard of these, where do they hold these races? How come these aren't on TV like I've never, there's been no discussion of these, but then I immediately was pulled to that because of that, wow, that's incredible, that the human body is able to do that, that a human body can go because, like you that -- a marathon is hard, running 26 miles on the road is painful. And so to wrap my mind around, okay, now go do that almost four times was crazy. And so really, at that moment, I thought I'm gonna do that. I want to go try that. If they can do it, I can do it, I want to see what that feels like. And I've believed from the time I was young that we are absolutely capable of so much more than we know. And there's something so exciting about that if we believe that who we are today is all there is then we've stopped living a lot of the good parts of life. If we believe that we can always evolve and grow and discover that there's so much more and we're capable of so much more, life gets pretty dang exciting. Skipper: Yeah. Sally: So that is really what drove me to that is the curiosity and that is where the journey started. Skipper: I have to say that one of the things in doing my research on you as a person and as a runner, I watched the film that was made of you running the 2014 -- Sally: "Western Time"? Skipper: Yeah. It's called "Western Time" for, what is the race called? Western -- Sally: Western States. Yeah. Skipper: That's what it is. Sally: Yeah. Skipper: And I have to say that there's so much packed into that -- and we'll link to it in the show notes -- in terms of what you did during that one race. And I know that it doesn't boil down to just one race for you as already having a lifetime of running underneath your belt. One of the things that really impacted me is that I didn't realize how much of a team and a community effort that this was and is to run, even just a marathon, right, you usually have a cheering section, and you might have some people who come out with you, or maybe they're running with you. But when you're running that length, you need a structure, you need a pod, you need to support system. Can you talk a little bit about that as a function of being an ultrarunner? Sally: Absolutely. And I believe this is one of the characteristics that draws people into the ultrarunning community is that it's very inviting. It's friendly. Skipper: Yeah. Sally: I remember walking up to my very first race, and I couldn't believe how many people just talked to me, whether I was waiting in line for a bathroom or at the start line, or just people that they wanted to chat and, and on one hand, there is this unspoken respect that everyone has for each other like, Wow, you think you can run 50 miles? Awesome. I want to get to know you. Because you realize that ultrarunning although it is grown exponentially since I first did my first race in 2010 in so many different ways, it's grown. But the sport in and of itself is known for being very inviting, and kind and chill and laid back. But the idea of having a crew is what we call them, you have crew and pacers. And I do have to say a side note here: not all races allow that. And typically crew and pacers -- crew is usually allowed anywhere but between like the 30, 100, and 200 mile plus races, of course. Skipper: Okay. Sally: And pacers -- race directors are pretty selective about what races people can be paced at. And then it is usually only the second half of the race or the last third of the race. But this idea of having a crew in the race that you spoke of, Western States 100, that race is known for its community. In fact, it's the oldest and most prestigious 100-mile race in the country. And so because of that, it is a great honor and a very coveted thing to be in the top 10. And so if you are placed in the top 10 is as a female or a male, that is a massive accomplishment. You know, our sport is not in the Olympics yet. But I would say that Western States is one of the biggest stages for the ultra and trail running community all over the world. The lottery is incredibly difficult to get into now, it wasn't when I first started. But now, people wait four, five, six years before they get picked to do the race. But if you're in the top 10, then you can continue to come back. And so for those that like to race the 100 miles, that is a big deal. So the crew part of this race because it is such a prestigious race, it's such an important thing to have a good crew that can support you and make sure that you're successful in this race. They also allow you to have two to three different pacers starting at mile 60 Forest Hill, which is one of the most famous aid stations in the whole race. And where people say this, the race actually begins -- which is funny to think it's 60 miles into the race. But that's where people start racing hard. So the crew when I did this race in 2014, people should go and watch the film, "Western Time", the whole storyline is that I was on this journey of a dream. And the dream had really started out first of all with me being signed as a professional athlete, which had been a dream of mine since I was a little girl. And I speak quite candidly along the way about the people that support me and the people that believed in me when I didn't always believe in myself and I talked about some dark seasons in my life and things like that. So the crew essentially is made up of people that you trust to speak truth into, you know, your life as an athlete, that even when you're hurting, and you're feeling down, like they're gonna say, hey, but remember your goals, that's more important than what you're feeling at this moment -- that this moment is gonna pass. And so I feel like, you know, ultrarunners that many of them will say this, that their crew or the people that they end up training with, you know, your training runs sometimes on the weekends are three, four, five, six hours long, they kind of become family to you, they become your best friends. And if you can think in our world right now, when do you ever go hang out with a friend for four, five, six hours uninterrupted? And when do you have conversations that are that long? I mean, I think of all my years of training over the past decade, in long runs that I would have with my training partners -- I mean, some of the best conversations in my life, but typically, those lead to, you know, you start getting beyond the surface stuff, you stop talking about just the weather and, you know, what are you eating after this run today? Skipper: Yeah. Sally: And you start talking about life, and you know, in a 100-mile race you go through, you have to line up at the start line, and know and except you will hit a dark spot, you will hit a point that you're going to want to drop out, that you're going to feel low, that your nutrition might be off, you're barfing your brains out, your body is going to be pretty upset that you are pushing it as hard as you can for so long. And so I think what is so important about crew is that these are also people that see you at your worst. So you see runners come in, and sometimes they do kind of snap at their crew, and they're not so nice, or their crew is patting their back as they're vomiting, you know, at their feet, and you realize that you are just in every way stripped down and in this raw form when you're racing these long distances, and your crew accepts you for that. And they encourage you to keep going no matter how bad you feel about yourself. And so I think that there's something to be said about the sport, in the way that it invites people to get to know each other on a deep level and to accept you right where you are for who you are. And you don't get that a lot. And you know, the road races are shorter, you know, you could show up to a 5k, walk up to the start line 10 minutes before, race it, hop in your car, and go home, you know, in and out of the whole thing in less than an hour, right? Skipper: Yeah. Sally: And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I'm around the road scene constantly. I mean, that's I kind of, I really lived my whole life in all-terrain running, track, road, mountain -- all of it. And there's nothing like the trail and ultra community though it's very supportive. Skipper: I hear you. So I want to switch gears for a moment from you as a runner, and you as an ultrarunner -- talk about what you do as a coach. And this is one of the first ways that I encountered you, or at least your voice was on the Nike Run Club app. Sally: Oh! Skipper: Yeah. I don't know that I shared that with you. Sally: No, you didn't. Yeah. I love it. What did you do? My hill workout? The speed workout? Skipper: I did a couple of hills because I live in San Francisco and lots of hills. Sally: Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. Skipper: I saw the hill workout. And I was like, Well, I have to do this one. I'm here. I see a hill in front of me so I have to do the hill workout. I'd love to hear about -- Sally: I love it. Skipper: Like, what's different? Do you feel it's just a different hat that you put on but you're always Sally? Or is there a different mode that you come into as a coach versus when you're running? Sally: I'd like to think of myself as always being who I am, no matter where I am or who I'm around. I believe that even more so than ever, especially in a digital world and social media-heavy way that we communicate. I made a very strong decision that if someone follows me on social media that when they meet me face to face, that I am no different. Skipper: Mmm. Sally: And I know that in my personal life, that's been a really difficult thing for me when I follow people on social media and I meet him face to face, I'm like, Wow, you're not your character. You're a character, you're a character online, and I just believe that that's a really hard place to be as a human. It's hard to -- and it's stressful and it's anxiety-inducing. And so I feel like the opportunities that I have been given -- I've had these dreams for so long as a young girl and I feel like it's just been such a gift and a blessing to have the opportunity to be a professional athlete, to own my own business, to coach people all over the world, to have a platform as an iFit Trainer as well as a Nike run club coach. And I don't take those things lightly. And I think that to much is given much is required. And so I feel like there are two ways I can always use my platform, and it's hard because I'm a human being, and I'm prideful. And I like things to be about me. But I feel like if I want something to last, if I want something to be valuable long after I'm gone, then it can't be about me. And so when I coach, or if I'm standing at the start line, I want to make sure that I am who I always am and who I was made to be. And that's just Sally. I understand, even from a young age, I've always loved to teach, to counsel, to coach, I've loved that since I was little. And I started doing that when I was 12 years old, I would come in as an assistant, assistant coach, or assistant caretaker with kids, I have that in me. And I just love to make -- if I can make somebody feel seen and valued, and just the power of being able to believe in somebody, you know, I lost my mom when I was 17 years old, and she was one of the most encouraging -- Skipper: I'm sorry. Sally: Thank you. It's been so long, but she was a very powerful woman. And long before social media, no one knew who she was. But I always wish that people could have met her because she spoke so much truth and encouragement into my life. And the thing that she would tell me over and over again was, Just be Sally. Skipper: Yeah. Sally: You know, as you grow up as a young girl, there's a lot of discouragement. And I was constantly dealing with that. And she would just say just, you know, just be who you are. So I try to carry that into my coaching, I carry that -- I'm going to encourage whoever's listening to me that you can do this. And that you can be the best version of yourself -- that it's so important that you see the value in showing up every day because you are worth it. But I believe as an athlete, too, I have to believe those things in myself as well. Skipper: Plus one to those things. I also think those are super important. I know that a lot of people, and we could get into a conversation about limiting ideas or limiting beliefs, but a lot of people don't think of themselves as a runner. But a lot of people aspire to do more running, to be more active. So to someone who's listening who might be thinking, Well, you know, this is fine. And that's fine for Sally -- and that might be fine for Skipper -- but I'm not a runner. I don't like doing that. But I'd like to try it. How would you suggest that someone start? Sally: (Laughs) I giggle about this, because what you just said is a lot like my husband. We met in college as soccer players. So he's very much a soccer player. So when I dove headfirst into ultrarunning, he was 100% like, Why? That sounds so boring and terrible. He has zero desire to do it. And I mean that in every way, that sounds just not fun. However, he has been such an incredible support to me. And I feel like in some ways because he doesn't do it, he's the best support I could ever ask for. Because it's pure. It's purely based on this idea that I want to see you do what you love, and I want to see you succeed. So my rule to myself and to him, we've been together since we were 18, so he's my best friend -- and I know that to keep peace in the house that I can't say, of course, You can run, anyone can run, you know, I can go into coaching mode. Skipper: Sure. Sally: I can even for those of you that are listening and giggling about this because it's easy for somebody that runs to tell you all the reasons why you should run and in some ways it can be annoying. And so -- Skipper: You're already bought in, you're in the club -- in a way. Sally: Yeah. And let's be honest, guys, running is painful. The reason why running is painful -- there are two reasons. One, you have to literally pick your whole body up off the ground and slam it back onto the earth with every step. You're working against gravity. And so regardless of your fitness level or your pace, it requires your entire body to participate. This isn't sitting on a bike with your cup of coffee and strolling -- just riding along with a friend along the coast like I used to do on my beach cruiser when I lived in Huntington Beach. I mean, that was fun. If I ate way too much the night before or I didn't sleep well, I can get up and ride my bike because I could like half-sleep on my bike. And it's the same thing. Like if you go in the pool, or even if you play tennis -- there are other things that you're doing and engaging with. But running requires all of you. And we don't always like to feel all of us, we don't always like to feel all that we are, we don't like to feel the reality of, Okay, I have a lot of extra weight so it hurts all my joints to do this, or I haven't been active for a while and my lungs are screaming at me. And so we then tell ourselves, I'm not a runner, or I wasn't made for this, or this is stupid. But the reality is that running was the most natural progression after we took our first step as children. So it is of all the sports, the only thing you actually never needed a coach to do. You don't need a coach, in order to run, I need a coach to teach me how to even get on a bike, to get on the tennis court, to get in a pool. All those things I had to learn. But running isn't, you know -- it's I don't say that I'm a walker, you know, I walk but I'm not a walker. And so when people and I hear this constantly, but when people say I'm not a runner, I just look at him. And I say, But you are even if you don't want to be, it's just the choice of wanting to move at a certain pace. Because, you know, you move a little bit faster, and you're right on the edge of fast walking, and just naturally going into that jog. So I like to encourage people that are curious about it, the first thing I always say is to be gracious with yourself. Running is not about how fast and how far you can go every single day, that's not what it's about. Running is a gift. If you have a body that's able to walk -- what a gift and you should celebrate that. And it's realizing that there isn't a time later in the week or in the month or this year that you're going to get a new body and suddenly it's going to do something else. This is it. And so if you've ever had a desire to run, then know that you can, but also at the same time, if you're curious as to whether or not you could do it at a fast pace or certain distance -- again, the answer to that is yes, I will always say yes. But I always suggest to brand new runners, especially if you don't feel like you're in good shape, or you have some weight that maybe needs to come off before it starts feeling good on your joints, which is completely understandable. I always suggest that you do a run-walk program first. And that is just such a great way to enjoy it. I love to run but I have days I get up and I'm like, Oh my gosh and I'll walk for 10 minutes before I start running sure I don't let myself think about whether or not this is a good day to run. Because once I start thinking too much, I won't get out the door. I put those shoes on and I make myself walk outside. And sometimes if I'm walking for 10 minutes, you need to put on some music, sometimes I need to go somewhere that's more inspiring. I like to look at houses, sometimes I'll drive to a new neighborhood and just go like walk around. And then pretty soon I'm running. And so I always encourage people to start by walking for five minutes, run for 30 seconds, walk for five more minutes, run for 30 seconds. And then you know do that for a week, the second week, and run for 35 seconds and walk for four minutes. You know, there are so many different variations that you can do. Jeff Galloway, a very popular American road runner, very accomplished Olympian, he has a great book, it's so old school, it's been around forever. But it's a run-walk program. Skipper: Okay. Sally: And it's great because it helps you to run injury-free, it allows you to enjoy the process of just building up to even racing, but his program is so powerful that that's how people race. You know, they'll hop into a half marathon. And they'll run-walk the whole thing and they'll cross that finish line. And they feel amazing. So it's not about how fast you're going. It's being grateful for the ability that you have in realizing that no matter where your start point is with that fitness level, you can always always always improve and get better. Skipper: That's a great reframing. I appreciate that. Sally: Yeah. Skipper: What's something about you as a runner or as a running coach that people get wrong? And by that, I mean what's a common misconception that people think about these modes in which you operate? Sally: That's a great question because I field those kinds of questions weekly. And I would say any industry that someone operates in, I probably get it wrong all the time, too. Because we live so much of our lives as little kids. It's like, well, that's what I learned from the movies. Or that's what I saw on social media so everything is kind of based on those learnings. And once I signed with Nike, I think that people think right away that you're just making tons of money and red carpets are rolled out and you're flying in jets everywhere. And I have to remind people -- Skipper: You're not? Sally: Right? I'm not a pro basketball player. I'm a pro runner that runs in the dirt, right? I'm on the side of a mountain most of the time. So, yeah, not getting all that. But I think another misconception is that I'm running all day. So people think that ultrarunners just run a lot, all day. The reality is that we are our training is very similar to a professional road marathoner. It's usually a couple of runs that will separate our sport so -- or event. I'd like to say there are pro runners, but we all have different events. So there's your 5k runners, 10k, marathon, and then there are the ultrarunners. So what's different is what we're doing on the weekend, which is when people typically will do their long runs, but I still get on the track, people are surprised about that. Skipper: Okay. Sally: I do track workouts, I do hill repeats, tempos, and all of that -- everything that, my daughter is a runner, too. She's a great runner. And we do a lot of the same types of workouts, our distances will be different. So she might do a five-mile tempo, my tempo might be a 14-mile tempo, where I run eight miles to warm up, and then I have a six-mile tempo inside of that. And then as far as my training goes, I'd say for most professional athletes, that has been a big focus of your day, everything that you do has to be dedicated to your wellness. So the recovery, the sleep, what you're eating -- people always say, "Oh my gosh, you run 100-mile races, you must be able to eat whatever you want! You're burning, like 50,000 calories. So amazing." Okay, I believed that too -- in the beginning, that didn't go so well. Skipper: (Laughs) Sally: I do have to watch what I eat. I will say though, I love eating. And I will eat anything and everything. But I don't eat anything and everything all the time -- I pick and choose when I do that. Skipper: Yeah. Sally: So yes, I train like a road marathoner for the most part outside of my long runs, I don't eat whatever I want and then everything else, you know, I don't talk too much about all the other things that I do. And I help and mentor other professional athletes. Now that I've been in the sport for a while, a lot of the up-and-coming athletes in our sport, it's hard because when I first started, there weren't many brands invested in trail running. And then after three years, four years of being into it, suddenly every brand was in it. And so all these teams popped up. And none of the athletes being signed, they didn't have agents and managers, and they didn't know how to negotiate contracts and what they should be getting and what was wise and discerning. And so over the years, and I've had like over different jobs, I started working at a very young age. So I'm very well versed as a businesswoman, I've owned my own business for a long time, I've worked with giant companies on several different levels, whether it's in marketing and events, advertising, communications, organization. And so because of that, I knew that as soon as I got signed with a brand, it was just understood without anyone telling me that they're not just signing me to get on the podium. Skipper: Sure. Sally: They need to sell product. And that does not mean that I just sit around and say, give me this, give me that, and throw money at me. I needed to be a good businesswoman. Skipper: Yeah. Sally: And so over the years, you know, I now have seven sponsors. And I would say I work -- Skipper: Congratulations. Sally: Thank you very much. It's really a dream come true. But I work very closely with these brands in many different ways -- product development, social media campaigns, and strategy. And I'm, you know, meeting with their employees and those are conversations that I have with them before I even sign. And I make it very clear that it's a working relationship between both of us. This isn't, of course, I'm going to be performing and getting on that podium as much as I love to sure but I think that is a misconception that both up and coming athletes have when they're looking to turn pro, but also just the general public at large, that they don't understand all of the work that we're doing daily. I'm constantly on calls, constantly emailing back and forth, working on content on my own, helping build product, testing product, and that takes a lot of time, especially when you're juggling seven different brands. And then outside of that, as I have grown in the sport in many different ways, it's been my hope of being a positive influence and someone that can speak on not only a professional level but in a caring way to the running community. And so because of that, I've expanded just the Sally McRae brand. And I operate in many different ways. So like I said earlier, I do public speaking, I do some writing, I do appearances. And yeah, there's just a lot of different ways that I'm working within the community. And I think a lot of it is just stuff that I don't always chat about -- even on podcasts. But I'm very busy. Skipper: Yeah. Thanks for the peek behind the curtain. I appreciate it. Sally: Yeah, it is. It's a thick curtain. Skipper: So you and I had a ton of other questions that we talked about, but you know, we're getting near the end of our time, but I want to make sure, Sally, is there something that we haven't talked about yet that you want to spend some time talking about? Sally: Oh goodness. I mean, everything in me just wants to get to know you, Skipper. That's just my natural, you know, why your name is Skipper? Because I never met anyone named Skipper. Except, was it Gilligan's Island? Skipper: Yeah, that's the name of one of the characters. Sally: It was that what it was, were you named after one of the characters? Skipper: Nope. Sally: Oh, no. Skipper: No. And, you know, one of the things -- not to go too far off of it but one of the episodes that we have planned after receiving feedback from other people, in one of the break shows, so after the first season's done, we're gonna do a break show, and I'm going to have my wife interview me. I'm very loath to do it. I don't want to do it. Because that's the reason why I started a podcast so I can talk to other people and learn things. But I don't, I don't want to be the talker. I don't want to be the talking person so -- Sally: This is common. I see this with, you know, photographers and filmmakers. I don't want to be on the other side of the camera. Yes, but you're showing us what you see. And I want to know what's inside that brain and why do you see things from that way. I think that's great. I'm looking forward to listening to that, Skipper. Skipper: Thank you for asking. I really appreciate it. But tell me I know, we only have about five minutes left of our scheduled time. If you don't mind, let's get into the closing questions. And these are the closing questions that I ask all the people to come on the show. But what's something that you wish you would have learned earlier in your life that you now know? Sally: How to take care of myself. I grew up, this is maybe podcast part two. But my growing up years were very tough. And so I carry I grew up very young and carried the world on my shoulders. And because of that, I spent well over a decade only sleeping three, maybe four hours a night. Skipper: Oh no. Sally: And you know, as a professional athlete, that was very difficult for me to have to understand, getting blood work back and having doctors say you're running yourself into the ground. And you can't survive, you can't perform well unless you take care of yourself to this -- I think that will always be a struggle for me, taking time to be considerate and kind of myself in all the ways. So, you know, I pretty much work seven days a week, I go from 4am to 8pm, every single night, and I don't usually take good care of myself, but I have to. So that is a discipline that is very difficult for me to do. But I wish that it was something that was taught to me. And I want to encourage all the listeners if you have young ones, or if there's stress in your life, take care of yourself because you're worth it. And your children are worth it. And, yeah. Skipper: That's a good reminder, and especially now when things are strange in the world. And yeah, there's so much change and tumultuousness. Sally: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that taking care is your total well-being. It's physically, it's mentally, it's realizing that no matter how difficult and painful and stressful life can be, we are not meant to be islands, we need each other. And we don't need to have a million friends. It doesn't matter if you have hundreds of 1000s of followers on social media. There are really only a few people that have the authority and the trust to speak into your life and know all the ins and outs of who you are and will love you regardless, right? And that's a big part of being well. Skipper: Yeah. So what are two things that you're really excited about right now? And the way that I'm asking this question is, you know, are there things that you're reading things that you're watching other kinds of material that you're ingesting that just is like at the top of your brain you can't help but talk about it? Sally: Well, I'd say an on a selfish personal level, I'm an idea maker. I'm a creator, I always have lots of ideas. And so you know, right now I talk quite a bit about my book and my website and programs that I'm working on. Although not announced yet, after seven years, my husband is finally going to be taking over my company for me, which I've wanted so much, because we work so well together. And I need him desperately, his strengths are all of my weaknesses. And he's just the most patient and kind and humble person. And so he's everything I'm not. I'm very excited about that. I can't stop talking about that. But from a more of like, on a world level, a platform level, I feel like, you know, we as a nation have seen a lot of changes and a lot of growing pains and some sanding down in the past year. Skipper: Mmmm. Sally: And I really believe in the process. Historically, looking back on my life, I think when everything started shutting down, and things were kind of really, really crappy, I immediately related that back to my life and realizing there were times in my life where I was so deep in a storm and it felt like things were falling apart, I didn't want to be on the planet anymore. Skipper: Sure. Sally: And realizing that nothing lasts forever. All seasons pass -- that even in the dirtiest, grossest soil so too is where we find flowers blooming, right -- Skipper: Aw, that's nice. Sally: We have to push through the soil in order to bloom. And this is just the way that life works. And so we're seeing more changes this year. I'm looking forward to traveling again, I typically race on the international circuit on the world tour. And so I'm looking forward to crossing over the pond and seeing old friends that I've missed in the past year and a half just around the world. And you know, kids going back to school, my daughter gets to race in her first race in over a year, this Saturday. So that excites me. So yeah, just staying hopeful and persevering. I think that we're going to come out stronger and realize when we look back, it might be 10 years, but we're gonna look back and say, You know what, that was a hard time and we got through it, and we can do hard things. And that's good. Skipper: That's great. So Sally, where can people find out more about you? We talked about a few things. You're redoing your website? Sally: Yes. Skipper: You can go to your existing website now but your website, you have a book coming out? Where can people find out more about you? Sally: Yeah. And very active on Instagram. I'm @yellowrunner on there, which I saw was one of our questions. And I was like, Dude, we could have made a whole podcast just on that question. We'll do that next time. Skipper: Sure. Sally: But I'm @yellowrunner on Instagram. Skipper: Okay. Sally: And then yes, SallyMcRae.com. There's @yellowrunner on Facebook, and then @SallyMcRae on Twitter, but those two are where you can find me. Skipper: Awesome. Well, Sally, thank you so much for making time to have this conversation with me. You're as encouraging in conversation form as you are in coaching form on the running app. So I appreciate it. Sally: Thank you. Very cool. Thank you, Skipper, I appreciate you giving the opportunity to share. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How This Works. Please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show. And it would mean so much if you could tell just one other person about it, and why they should listen. You can find how this works online at howthisworks.show. It's three words no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media happens. I hope that you learned something from my conversation with Sally McRae, for sure I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: What about you? Have you always been in California? Sally: Yeah, yeah. Born and raised -- SoCal. Huntington Beach and we actually just relocated to Bend, Oregon six months ago. Skipper: Oh, okay. Sally: Yeah, finally in the mountains, which I really love. It's a little bit slower pace of life here. Which is nice.