[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, I'm Skipper Chong Warson, a coach and a design director based in San Francisco. Welcome to the second season of How This Works. This is a show where I engage in conversations with experts from a wide variety of fields, diving deep into their specific areas of expertise while plumbing for insights and learning something along the way. On today's episode, I have the great pleasure of having Karen Faith join me. And she's here to talk about her work as a researcher and ethnographer in the practice of empathy. Karen, thank you, I appreciate you taking the time to join me. Karen Faith: Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here. Skipper: So Karen, let's start as we normally do on our show, let's begin with pronouns. I use he and him -- how do you prefer to be addressed? Karen: Well, I mean, I prefer to be addressed as Karen but to be referred to -- I mean, well, it's an interesting question, isn't it because I use she and her pronouns for myself, I sometimes use they pronouns for myself. But the way that people refer to me is sort of their business, not really mine... Skipper: There have been some previous guests who've hinted at this as well, this notion of pronouns, there are the ones that you inhabit for yourself, and then the ways in which other people interact with you. And so I appreciate that you bring up that distinction. Karen: I've come to use a 'they' pronoun, not in a non-binary gender way, but in an actual plurality way, that I do perceive that I have multiple parts of myself in dialogue. And so I've kind of embraced that pronoun for myself sometimes, I occasionally refer to myself as we, in a very literal way. And in starting to think about my own use of pronouns, I've also thought about the fact that you and I will not refer to one another with pronouns. Skipper: Sure. Karen: That's -- that's for you to talk about me to other people. Skipper: That's right. Karen: And, you know -- since when am I in charge of what anyone says about me? Skipper: (Laughs) That's a good point. So I gave a little bit of an introduction in terms of the work that you do, but would you mind in a few sentences introducing yourself? Karen: Sure. My name is Karen Faith. I'm the founder and CEO of Others Unlimited, which is an empathy training company based in the practice of ethnographic research. So I started this part of my career doing immersive qualitative research, usually in the service of design, branding, and innovation initiatives, in order to understand the human experience, human needs, feelings, and making sure that the products and services and brands were really meeting the needs of the people that we intended to serve. And while I was working as an ethnographer, when I had to train my first intern, I ended up having to teach him, you know, how to listen, how to observe, how to ask good questions, and inadvertently created an empathy training curriculum, which, when I offered it internally to the agency I was working at proved so valuable, that now it's the core of my business. Skipper: Mm. Karen: So now I facilitate workshops for working teams on how to communicate better, how to understand one another, how to see things from multiple perspectives, that has really become a life's mission for me at this point, is teaching people how to step outside of their own point of view and try on another one. Skipper: Yeah. Is there something about you that people might not expect? And when I ask this question, I want this to be a detail that you yourself would be comfortable sharing -- is there something that you can share with myself as well as the listening audience? Karen: Yeah, well, I think, you know, I hinted at it a little bit in the intro, but -- I think it's really funny, you know, when we started talking about doing this podcast almost a year ago -- Skipper: Almost a year ago. Karen: When you first asked me, and even just now when I introduce myself as an ethnographer, as an empathy trainer, as the founder and CEO, whatever -- Skipper: Yeah. Karen: You know, this year, I've actually been working on deeply identifying, contacting, building relationships with these various parts of myself, which is made introducing myself very complicated because the character Karen Faith, whom I love, is like a literal facade, right? In fact, I am a system of trillions of life forms biologically, and even internally in the way that I think about things, the way that I feel, the way that I perceive myself, I've been able to contact multiple parts of myself who do, in fact, have dialogue with one another. Skipper: Sure. Karen: And this has been really interesting for me because it's something that I don't -- well, I used to feel pretty uncomfortable sharing because it sounds a lot like some psychiatric diagnosis. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: And -- it's true! -- and it's not even separate from that. I mean, I do have complex post-traumatic stress, and I do have dissociation as a symptom of that. Skipper: Okay. Karen: But in the practice of learning more about the plurality of self, I've come to understand that many people do; it's not necessarily pathological. And that when we come to befriend and dialogue with these parts of ourselves, we can, you know, integrate more of our unconscious, we can integrate more of, you know, the suppressed parts of ourselves to the parts that we're ashamed of. And so it's a super healing, really empowering practice that I've gotten really interested in and involved in -- and I've been teaching about. But it's something that I haven't publicly spoken about as much. I believe you saw the TED talk that I gave last year -- Skipper: I did. Karen: -- where I sort of hinted at this. Skipper: Yep. Karen: And since then, so many people have asked me more about it, that I've become more open about this perception, but I think, you know, I think that the thing about myself that might not be visible on the surface is that I really do perceive myself as a kind of team of people walking around in the world, who are navigating this together as a group. Skipper: Yeah, that notion of singularity versus plurality versus how we bring ourselves to our work, to our home -- I think all of those things are really important concepts, especially now. Karen: Yeah, absolutely. And it also helps so much with the practice of empathy. Because even though, you know, my public-facing character, Karen Faith, may not agree with someoutrageous or controversial points of view, there are other parts of me that do, you know. Skipper: Right. Karen: There are other parts of me that can relate to that or can see that even though I wouldn't necessarily lead with that. And that's -- that's really a great thing about empathy practices. When I'm able, the more people the more different kinds of people I'm able to receive inside myself, the more I can receive outside and it works the other way, there's not an order of operations on that they just kind of both inform one another. You know, when I fall in love with someone in the world who, you know, has super different ideas or beliefs or lifestyle than me, then I can actually find a part of myself too, that maybe I wasn't able to love who I can love more. And the other way around. So it's a very practical thing as well. Skipper: Yeah. With that, all of the introduction context in mind, let's jump into the subject, the sort of 'this' of How This Works. And I mentioned this a little bit in the show's introduction -- and then we, we've talked about a little here and there -- but how did you get started in this work? Karen: Yeah, I'll tell you what I didn't do -- was go to school for it. Skipper: Okay. Karen: I'm not opposed to school, but I just didn't happen to come through that door. Skipper: Sure. Karen: It begins in -- I went to art school, I first went to school for classical music, I was a violist, I worked in orchestras for a little while. And then when I started to learn more about contemporary art, I went back to school for contemporary performance art practice. And in art school, it's a really interesting thing, I think, because in the art world in general, there was so much art that was kind of hard to understand, until you'd learned about that artist, or the history of art are, you know, they were sort of a lot of art, especially, particularly painting, but even more than that, but seemed like a lot of inside information that you really had to learn in order to understand how to take it. But at the same time -- Skipper: Context. Karen: Right? But at the same time, a lot of this art was considered to be some universal statement to all of humanity, which it just simply wasn't, it couldn't have been, because you've got to know about the history of art to even know what I'm looking at. And so in thinking about that, I decided that well, and I also had a kind of painful experience of hearing one of my professors telling me that he felt like my work was for girls. Skipper: Oh no. Karen: Yeah, I know, but he wasn't wrong -- that's the thing is that I was actually speaking about issues that were specific to women. Because they're specific to me, and I'm a woman. Skipper: Sure. Karen: But I also -- I didn't only want women to see it. I also wanted men to see this experience of women. And so what he said was problematic in a number of ways, but it caused me to think about who is my work for. And I thought about in sculpture, there's this idea of site-specific work -- Skipper: Okay. Karen: Which is sculpture that's made for a particular place, it's informed by that place and can only really exist there. It's not movable, not just physically movable, but it's the meaning that gets lost if it's not in that place. And so I started working with something that I called audience specificity, where I would first choose who I was making a piece for, what group of people and sometimes I was one of them, and sometimes I wasn't -- so sometimes I would just hang out with them, live with them, interview them. I'd have them be a part of it, sometimes they'd perform with me, and make sure that I was using language and symbology, or whatever it was that would really reach them and speak to them. And it was not open to the public. It was just for these people. I loved that work, it was really, really great to practice. But of course, after I graduated, I didn't have any idea how to make a living. And I became a yoga teacher, actually, for quite a number of years. And one of my yoga students actually was talking to me about after class, he was talking to me about my work. And I told him about what I just told you about audience specificity and he said, Oh, you're doing ethnography. And that was the first time I'd heard the word. So I asked him, What is ethnography? And he happened to own an innovation consultancy that specialized in ethnographic research. And so, you know, he told me, yeah, what we do is when we need to solve a problem for people, we go and spend time with those people really intimately in order to understand the problem as much as we can. And he asked me if I wanted to give it a shot, and I definitely did because yoga teachers don't make very much money. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: Oh, it's real. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: So he gave me a shot writing field notes for the sociologists. And I quickly moved through that project and did really well and was trained by the head, lead sociologist on that project and, and then started a new career. Skipper: Okay. And I appreciate you unpacking all the steps to get there because there's credentialing that happens if you say, Oh, I work as a such and such -- and I went to school for that same such and such, right? Because similar to you, I work in user experience design, I've done things around user research and similar ethnographic topics. However, that's not at all what I went to school for. Karen: Right. What did you go to school for? Skipper: Thank you for asking. I actually have a double degree in English literature and playwriting. Karen: Beautiful. Skipper: So part of the bridge that I normally tell when I talk about my own biography is that what I learned in school was the practice in how other people told stories. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: So that's one thing that I feel like I'm able to do, whether it's inside of a workshop or it's in a kind of design engagement or something like that, is how to string things together, in a way. So you know, how to tell that compelling narrative, whether I'm advocating for another human being or I'm advocating for a design team or whoever that might be. So... Karen Faith: Storytelling is such a practice of perspective taking, but it's a practice of perspective shaping. Skipper: Yes. Karen: Because the fact is that, you know, opposing truths coexist in a harmonious paradox. Skipper: That's right. Karen: And we have to choose, you know, when we're telling a story, we're shaping the listeners' entry into a particular reality. And that involves, we don't just tell the facts, we choose which facts to tell, and in what order to shape that perspective. And I think storytelling is so valuable for that reason, because we become aware of how much storytelling we're doing with ourselves internally all the time. And then that helps us to understand when we encounter someone, I'm thinking of someone in my life right now that I'm having a relationship transition with, looks a lot like a breakup, but we're calling it a relationship transition. It is, I mean, it's both things, that's part of it, you know, the story, his experience and my experience are really different from one another because we're really different people. And so, and the facts of the stories are the same, you know. Skipper: Sure. Karen Faith: But how we experienced them, how we interpret them, how we've shaped them for ourselves, is different. And so one of the most beautiful things that we've been doing is allowing each other's perspective into our own, and we're trying to share and integrate those stories so that we can kind of walk through it together and not have to walk apart, you know, and that's empathy practice. Skipper: It is. And change is hard, right? Karen: No shit. Skipper: And whether it's change as a way of re-educating yourself about something that you that someone didn't know, right there's this notion of you don't understand this one part of your business or you don't understand this one section of your clientele or customers, or it's like you said, these opposing point of views and opposing point of views are it's not like rock 'em sock 'em robots, right? Where one knocks the other one out, right? Karen Faith: (Laughs) Skipper: There's only one winner -- that's not the way that opinions and feelings and thoughts work. These things do coexist whether or not they're sort of facing each other. Karen: Absolutely. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And I don't think they have to fight. Skipper: No. Karen: By virtue of the fact that they do exist together, they can exist together. Skipper: Right, right. So as we're as we're going down this path of understanding the nature of the work that you do, what is something that when you're able to talk about the work to other people that people sometimes don't understand about these things that you do? Karen: Something people don't understand about empathy practice? Skipper: About empathy practice, yes. Karen: I think the biggest misconception is that it's feelings first -- and people think, I think people use the word empathy and compassion synonymously. And I don't think that they're interchangeable. Empathy practice, the way I teach it, is a cognitive empathy practice, it's a practice of non judgmental curiosity. Skipper: Okay. Karen: It is not a practice of caring. Skipper: Okay. Karen: If -- when we do practice non-judgement and curiosity -- we often end up caring. But we don't necessarily go in caring, and we don't have to care first. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: You know, and I think a lot of people, they want to get to caring, or they want to feel cared for -- and so they think, you know, we have to practice empathy because there's a lack of care. But empathy doesn't necessarily produce care, but it does produce understanding. And it produces an expanded perspective. So I haven't in my work, often, I don't know if I've ever experienced that caring didn't sort of come along as a side effect. But I can certainly imagine it in the world. And I've experienced it in my life, that sometimes hearing more about a person's point of view or choices, makes me care less. Skipper: I see. Karen: You know, it makes me feel like, Oh, I can, with more knowledge, reject your position, like I really know that I really don't agree with you and that I'm not with you on this, but now I know why. And now I can articulate your point of view as well as you can. Because now I have more knowledge. And it's not just, I don't like you, I don't like that. It's like, Oh, I get it. And no. So that can be part of it. Skipper: Yeah. You did a session last year with CreativeMornings -- Karen: Oh yeah. Skipper: If I remember correctly, the title was "Empathy for Assholes". Is that right? Karen: That's correct. It's also the title of my book in progress. Skipper: Ooh. Karen: Yes. "Empathy for Assholes," I like it as a title because it's a little ambiguous as to whether the empathy is for the assholes or for the assholes to practice. Skipper: That's right. Karen: Is this a course for assholes? Or a course on giving a shit about assholes? Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: And the answer is that it's both. Skipper: Yep. Karen Faith: Because we are all both. Skipper: Yep. Karen: Like, I -- vulnerably, this is the hard part of the book I am writing -- I am the most ultimate asshole that I need to have empathy for and coming to understand that, it's relatively easy for me to show empathy for people who behave badly. And there are a lot of reasons for that -- trauma. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: But to show empathy for myself, to be curious and nonjudgemental about myself, about the ways that I have behaved badly does not come as easily to me. And the other irony about being an empathy trainer is that, whether I've invented this or not, I feel held to this standard of being a really great person. Skipper: Mm. Karen: This really kind person, this great communicator, this person who has deep insight about other people; and I will promise you I am a fucking human being. Skipper: (Laughs.) Karen: And I mess things up. I am selfish. Skipper: Sure. Karen: I am forgetful and thoughtless. And I don't do a great job all the time. Skipper: Sure. Karen: I'm a human. I have very deep flaws and wounds like everyone else. And I have trapdoors that drop down pretty far. And so, I'm the asshole I need to deal with. And ultimately that, I think, ends up being the case for everyone, understanding and finding not just forgiveness, but real insight and growth in our own failures to show empathy or to practice empathy, that's a big part of it. Skipper: Yeah. So it sounds like there's a third potential meaning to the title and that is how to solve your own inner asshole to work through and -- Karen: Yeah. Skipper: -- bridge any sort of gap or how to build that empathy bridge. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And you know, it's funny because non-judgement is a really big part of the practice. And obviously, the word asshole is pretty judgmental. Skipper: Sure. Karen: I use it for the sake of being accessible and irreverent. But, you know, when I do the work, and when I do try to put myself in the perspective of another person, some behavior, which we might call asshole-ish is only asshole-ish in the context of, you know, shared civil society. But if we were alone, being self-serving, what's wrong with it? If we were alone, you know, doing what I need to do for my own survival, there's nothing wrong with it. So I say this just to point out that many of the things which which we call bad behavior are strong, functional evolutionary behaviors that simply don't work if we want to all be together. And we do want to be together. Skipper: Yep. Karen: Mostly. Skipper: Mostly, yep. Karen: (Laughs) And this is really about being together with other people. I like to say, empathy is amoral. This is not about morality, this is not about being a good person, this, there's nothing wrong, I can get into problems here, because it's not that I don't believe that good and bad exist. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: They do -- it's that they're subjective. They're constructs. And so they're unhelpful, unreliable tools for measurement. And meanwhile, the shame of the blame is really, really unhelpful for all of us. So I think, you know, releasing the judgment and just realizing that being an asshole is no big deal. It's part of, it's just a matter of intentional adjustment. If I want to be here with you, if we want to have a conversation, I gotta let you talk sometimes. Skipper: Right. Karen: And, you know, there's nothing wrong with me talking. And there's nothing wrong with me talking the whole time. But then, it's not a conversation. Skipper: It's a different mode, for sure. Karen: Right? So I'm really pro-amorality because morality is like, Oh, a thorn in my side. Skipper: Yeah. It's a hard thing to reach for -- I love the thing that you said before about how you get to carry as a side path, but it's not necessarily the main goal. That's not the thing that you're moving for, but that's an unintended consequence of this work. Karen: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of people ask me whether or not compassionate and caring are natural or normal or whatever. And I don't like that question very much because it doesn't matter, honestly. But I think of it like virtues, the virtues that we think of like patience, for example. Skipper: Mm-hm. Karen: The reason we have a word for what patience is that it is no one's default. Right? Skipper: Mm. Karen: Patience is sort of a negative virtue. It's an inverse. Patience isn't a thing, it's the lack of a thing. Patience is resisting desire, resisting instant gratification, resisting our impulses. Skipper: Sure. Karen: Patience wouldn't exist without those impulses. And a lot of virtues are like this -- Skipper: I see. Karen: -- they're like the equal and opposite to another thing. And their presence, but the presence together creates oneness -- it’s this harmony. It’s this yin yang; alone, patience doesn’t exist. And neither does the lack of patience. But together, they sort of complete this circuit. So like, I don’t mean to get -- oh, yeah, I do. I do mean to get really philosophical. Skipper: (Laughs) Nice. Karen: No, I'm exhausting and I know it and it's fine. But I think about what is -- what are these virtues, I kind of dig into them and think about what is this virtue and with patience, I think it's the completing of the circuit, this oneness of opposites. I believe this is unconditional love. Like, that's the unconditional love energy. So what patience is, is the practice of loving time. Skipper: Mm. Karen: Right, the way that faith loves doubt, and mercy loves justice, you know what I mean? It's like, this is -- Skipper: Like a pairing, yeah. Karen: Yes. And we actually need both things for either of them to exist. Skipper: Right. Karen: So it's like, you know, cold and heat and light and dark, they define one another. Skipper: Sure Karen: Like someone once asked me how to practice acceptance, and I asked her, What's the alternative? Skipper: Sure, yeah. Karen: What are you going to -- are you going to reject what is? Skipper: Right? Karen: I mean, you can. It's pretty painful, though. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: I mean, acceptance is also painful. Skipper: Acceptance is also painful -- and hard. But they also need to be doled out in the appropriate manners, I'm thinking about something -- and I'm pretty sure I'm stealing this example from someone else who said this, the notion of a deer in the wild. So in a forest, when a deer is startled or hears something, they freeze, and when they are against the backdrop of the trees and the grass and whatever their natural background is, that totally works. Right? Deer doesn't move, you know, and it's a, there's a percentage chance that the predator or whatever it is, hunter might still see the deer and you know, something might happen. But when a deer is crossing a road, and they're startled by a set of headlights that are coming upon it, and it freezes, more often than not, that ends up being really harmful, even deadly to the deer because they have this instinct to freeze. But in the middle of the road, it's the wrong place to freeze. Karen: Right. Skipper: So justice is an important concept. But you're not always going to apply it equally in every situation. Karen: Yeah, sometimes mercy is the right choice. Skipper: Exactly. Karen: And I use that right, the word right, loosely. Skipper: Yep. Yep. Karen: In my own life, I've tried to replace good and bad, right and wrong with helpful or unhelpful. And in order to know whether something is helpful, or unhelpful, we need to know, in the service of what -- what's the aim? Skipper: Right. Karen: You know, so if I know what the aim is for the deer, the aim is staying alive. Skipper: Right. Karen: So freezing in the road is unhelpful. Skipper: That's right. Karen: Freezing in the forest is helpful. Skipper: That's right. Karen: And you know, sometimes the right thing, the helpful thing may surprise us, you know, the helpful thing might not seem or feel good, you know, but it can still be helpful. Skipper: Yeah. And to recognize one other thing that occurred to me, it also may not be helpful in that moment, it may not be the thing that that person needs right then -- whether you're on the receiving end or the giving end -- however, on reflection, and looking back, it might end up being the right thing -- Karen: Absolutely. Skipper: -- or the helpful thing. Karen: Yeah, the long-term helpfulness and the short-term helpfulness can be really, really different. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: Let's switch focus slightly and talk about your business as the founder of Others Unlimited. The tagline is around empathy, training for research, collaboration, and citizenship. And that sequence of wording really struck my ear or my eyes as I was reading over it, can you talk more about that in terms of, maybe link some of the concepts that we've been talking about in terms of empathy, but how that goes into citizenship -- being a person in the world? Karen: I would say that research, collaboration, and citizenship are the three aims, but can be restated as how to be a professional, how to be a teammate, and how to be a person. Skipper: Okay. Karen: So research is, you know, toward the professional goals that we have this is customer research, audience research, brand research. Collaboration is how do we work together, how do we communicate with one another, in a way that is productive and that is helpful toward our aims, you know. And then citizenship is answering the question, How do I be in civil society? How do I engage in the community of being a citizen of my community? Skipper: Right. Karen: Yeah, I hesitated about the word citizenship because it sounds like something, you know, government related, and it's not. I just mean citizenship in terms of how am I good? How do I be a good community member? And this is separate from the morality of being a good community member. But how do I get along, right with all these fucking weirdos because we're all really, really nuts. Skipper: We're all weird. Karen: We're problematic and we're quirky. And we we exist in our own worlds. We are entire worlds inside of ourselves. And so it's like, how am I gonna get along with all these people? And there's so many of them and each one of them is speaking another crazy language that I've got to learn and it gets exhausting and you think, I don't even, I don't even want to sometimes -- and I don't even want to sometimes, but I really don't. But when I do, I'm always glad I did. When I do, I am rewarded for that. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: In ways that benefit me greatly. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: So ultimately, it ends up me serving myself, but that's okay. Skipper: Well -- and I would offer that it's not even because we're human beings, and, you know, whatever delicate chemistry we have, and you know, all of the things that we have going on in our world emotionally, mentally, intellectually, we're also not the same every day. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: So, you know, the nebulous of the infinite cosmos that live inside of us. I wasn't the same yesterday as I am today. Karen: And thank God, right? Skipper: Yeah. Karen: I mean, thank goodness we can change. I hear you on that. Skipper: Yeah. So I know, we've talked about some really lofty concepts, and even some metaphysical concepts that I imagine that some people listening might be, you know, scrambling to find crystals or incense or something like that. But -- Karen: (Laughs) Skipper: I personally have as much skepticism about those things. However, I find that in my life, I've accumulated them and, you know, I've let them go, and you know, all of those things -- but what are ways in which this notion of empathy work? I especially appreciate that you've linked it to just functioning in the world, right, as a citizen, like, how do we interact with whether that's on a transactional basis, or family and friends basis? You know, however, that works. How can some of these things play into someone's everyday life? Karen: Well, it would be easier to try to find ways where they couldn't. Skipper: Ah, interesting. Karen: I came to understand that every problem I have ever encountered can be solved or remedied by a change in perspective. Or an expansion. Skipper: Say more about that. Karen: Like perspective taking, expanding my point of view, or seeing things another way -- I can't think of a place where that's not useful. Skipper: Okay. Karen: Well, maybe some... you can actually expand too much. Sometimes when you need to stay focused on something and see something through, considering too many different points of view -- it's kind of like that old saying that a camel's nothing but a horse designed by committee. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: Right? Skipper: Sure. Yeah. Karen: So sometimes, there can be too many perspectives in the mix. Skipper: Sure. Karen: But, like one for example, one point -- I know, I'm getting us right back into theoretical stuff, but -- Skipper: All good. Karen: When I talk about perspective taking, I often use the metaphor of a gem. So when you find a gem in the rough, and, and you polish aside and you and it gets shiny, right. And that's great. And that's like my point of view. I've polished the side, like this is where I'm looking from. But if I want it to be sparkly, I need to cut facets on it. And so every additional perspective is going to cut another facet on that gem. And the more facets I cut, the sparklier are it is... until the more facets I cut, it becomes a sphere. Skipper: Okay, yeah, yeah. Karen: Now, it's not sparkling at all. Skipper: Sure. Karen: Now, it is like this globe. And, which is just to say, Yes, we want to find this balance, right? How can I see this in a way that really optimizes what I'm seeing? Skipper: Sure. Karen: And then, of course, if you see so much that they're -- I keep avoiding talking about this, but there's something about... it's spiritual bypassing, which I am annoyed by the term because it's so relevant to so much of my life -- Skipper: Okay. Karen: But I find that I very often will kind of go -- when the problems of my life are really, really, really, really difficult -- Skipper: Mm-hm. Karen: What helps me when I do my perspective taking is sometimes I go way up to the higher altitude level where the problem is now very tiny. Skipper: I see. Karen: Which is indeed helpful in the moment, to dial down that drama of everyday emergencies but it can also prevent me from taking action in the real world if I don't regard this with the urgency that is required, or if I don't really see or accept or acknowledge the real implications of my actions or non-actions. And so that's where I think the gem stops being sparkly and just becomes a sphere where it's like, I've now taken it so far, that there's nothing here. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: You know, and it's a problem that I have, it might be my favorite problem that I have. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: But it's a problem that I have in staying -- I have a hard time staying on the planet. Because I find it really difficult here, I find this place to be really hard, and relationships to be tough. And all the constructs of the world and government and money and commerce to be extremely irritating. And so I just -- I want out, you know, I just I'm like, can I please? And that's what meditation is for? But there's a reason we don't meditate all day. Skipper: Right? Karen: And that's it. You know, I feel far from the question that you asked me, What was the question? Skipper: It's all good. I think you answered parts of it, but the crux of what I was looking for is, you know, how do we take these empathy practices and apply them in our every day and I love the thing that you said, and yes, there are people who meditate for a lot of their time. But you don't meditate all the time, right? You still have to live in the world, you still have to figure out how to feed yourself, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you have to figure out those things in order to do this other thing. So even if you meditate as a profession, which I know that there are a small number of people who do, but you still have to figure out the other things like how do you interact with people at the grocery store? How do you get to a place where you meditate? What is the transportation method? How do we like how is it that we can get to, you know, the notion of signal versus noise? But if there's too much signal, it can be super noisy, too. Karen: Yeah. You're asking me how to do that? Skipper: I guess that's sort of the premise of the question. And maybe, let me just put it to you, when someone feels because we also live in this world of short attention spans, and we move from one thing to another, binging TV shows or focusing in on bad traffic, or, you know, whatever it is, how do we engage in this notion of empathy, active listening, how do we overcome a lot of this noise that we experience in our lives right now? Karen: I feel like it might be something of a lazy answer to just say, Be here now. But I think that there's so much in that answer. Skipper: Right. Karen: I find that, you know, this desire that we have to answer that question that you just asked, How do we do this? Can you please give me a checklist? Or is there an approach? Is there a philosophy? Is there a book? And there are many. Because so many of us crave that. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: But it's always to really fully inhabit the moment with your whole self. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: That's really always it. Skipper: Yeah. And with others, Karen: Yes, to inhabit it with others and allow their reality into your reality, and to feel all of that pain and bliss together. But, you know, there's a reason that I don't think I would be very good at any kind of job, which involves future casting, because I don't think it's a good idea to live in the future, you know -- Oh, I want to -- which is interesting, because I was a strategist for a few years. It was a lot of theoretical work that about the future, and none of -- almost none of -- the things that I planned ever came to be. They were just interesting thoughts to have in the moment. And you know, it's funny, I haven't ever put this together. But I think that that might be one of the biggest gifts that my career in advertising gave me is that seeing -- because I was really unhappy as a strategist because I would do this research and come up with all these insights and create these plans for these brands to move forward and no one ever listened to me. No one. Skipper: (Laughs) Right. Karen: I can think of one project that my research was very influential, my strategy was very influential. And it went really well, by the way, but -- but usually the client would just be like, Okay, that's interesting. We're not going to do that. Or we've got some other data that says something else, or, Well, now there's a new CMO so nevermind or whatever it was, and so it was like, none of these things ever happened. And I was just like, Why? Why do we make these plans when they don't happen? And I just realized right now for the first time in this moment that was such a gift to realize that making the plan is the value. Skipper: Right. Karen: Thinking about the insight to the degree that you can envision a future like that, envisioning is the value. Carrying that future out is not as valuable. And it's -- it gets hypothetical. Skipper: Right. Karen: It doesn't -- well, I mean, it wouldn't be hypothetical if you did it. But it was -- Skipper: Right. Karen: Like where do we still just have to live in the moment and make our decisions as we are, as we change as our circumstances change, as the people around us change, and change together. One of five foundational principles of my practice that I -- we don't need to talk about all of them, but one of them is immediacy. Skipper: Okay. Karen: Because the idea is that the only place where anything ever happens is the present moment, it's the only place where anything is possible. Skipper: Sure. Karen: It's the only place where we can make choices. Skipper: Sure. Karen: It's the only place where change happens, the only thing that ever happens -- happening is a thing that only happens, it's the only place. And so when we concern ourselves with the past (failure or success) or the future (failure or success). And those things are worth considering, I think, I don't know, the only place that we can actually act is in this moment. And so I want to bring us right back to that. And I think about that in terms of empathy, because you asked how this is practically applicable. Skipper: Yep. Karen: An example I like, Have you ever changed your mind during an argument? Skipper: For sure. Karen: Well, I mean, you say for sure, like everyone has -- a lot of people have not. A lot of people argue their point and they have to afterwards change their mind. Skipper: Right. Right. Karen: But like in the argument, when you realize -- Skipper: Oh, I see what you mean, yeah. Karen: Like we're arguing, and I realized, Oh, shit, I, your point is better than my point. Skipper: Right. Karen: But my emotion is chemically flowing through my bloodstream -- Skipper: I can't stop, yeah. Karen: Yeah. And so, I do see your point. But I'm still mad. And I've actually had the real-life experiences of saying, I agree with you now. But I'm still mad. I do agree with you now. But you're going to have to give me a minute to get over big bad because the anger is still here. Because emotions are not rational. Skipper: Right. Karen: Emotions are -- Skipper: You can't just just pour it out. Yeah. Karen: Totally. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And so being able to say, I agree with you now, but I'm still mad is being present. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: I'm saying I am in this moment, allowing change to happen, and making a choice. And I'm still acknowledging the way that I feel. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And so that's a kind of important distinction to make. Because I mean, how often I have much more often, in the moment thought, I'm going to have to change my opinion, but I'm not willing to do so right now. So I'm gonna give it three days. And I make a plan, I make a plan of how I'm going to communicate that my mind has changed later. Skipper: Right. Karen: But it's really great when we can just in the moment say, Ah, yeah, I'm here. I see it. Skipper: Yeah. So I want to get into -- we've gone sort of wide and we've gone deep in a couple of different places -- is there something here that we haven't talked about yet that you want to get into? Karen: I don't, I don't know, that's tough. I -- Skipper: Yeah. Karen: I'm asking, I'm asking myselves and it's -- I'm thinking your intention for the podcast is to really go deep in particular topics. And I feel like we've gotten more into philosophy than into ethnography. But I wonder if, if you want to talk specifically about ethnography as a practice, I mean, the only reason why I haven't gotten into that is because a podcast that I did was recently released, where I talked very specifically about ethnographic practice and so I feel like I don't want I don't want to just you have a repeat podcast. Skipper: Duplication. Karen: (Laughs) Skipper: But -- if there's -- and I appreciate the sensitivity and the care about that, but if there's one thing and I look to you because you've been doing this work for as long as you have and as deeply as you have. I know I'm asking a hard question and that is there one thing that you would pull out of your ethnographic work as an example, to show whether it's in someone's work life or home life, what is something that we could borrow from your ethnographic learnings that listeners might be able to apply? Karen: I've said this before, and so I feel like it's obvious and that everyone knows, but maybe that's not true -- that what I most want people to know about themselves and about one another is that there's nothing wrong with you. Skipper: Hmm. Karen: There's -- Skipper: Yes, say more. Karen: Live your life as you are for the whole rest of your life and be worthy of your place in the world and worthy of love. So many people get hung up on what they need to change, or how other people need to change. And change is cool, growth is great, that's good, but this belief that there's something broken that needs fixing is a rejection of reality in the moment, it's a rejection, it's not an acceptance of this now. And I think that -- Skipper: Sure, the present tense. Karen: We have to receive each other as we are, there isn't another option. There isn't a -- it's not, well, Skipper, I really like you except this one thing. Or if you could be a little bit more like this, then I could really love you. Or, you know, if I would trust you if you had this quality, or if you had not done this thing. And I know that we live like that because of self protection, and because of all kinds of other things. But when I'm with a research subject, I practice, and I have to do this as a researcher, because anything I'm unwilling to see in them is just I'm just shutting myself off from learning from them. So I have to fully embrace everything that they are, without exception. And that includes personality stuff, it includes weird hygiene stuff, it includes strong political opinions that make no sense, it includes everything. So only when I say, in my heart, and sometimes I actually verbally say, Everything here is okay with me, I am, I have fully embraced your whole truth in my life at this moment, and I am totally here with you. And I don't do it again, to be a good person, I do it to be good researcher. Because you know, the minute that I select qualities that I prefer in them, then I'm limiting my view, I'm putting blinders on, and I'm not able to really get to the insight that I need. Skipper: Sure. Karen: So even just for research purposes, you know, anything that I'm unwilling to see is blocking me from the perspective that I'm there to gather. So I started practicing this, just to be a good researcher. But I'll tell you that the moment that I and I talked about that first big moment for me in my TED talk, but I had a difficult person and, and I really just said, Okay, I'm going to have to work very hard to receive this woman. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And when I did, I had a transcendent experience of unconditional love. Like it was bananas. I felt energy, you know, like shooting up and down my spine. It was an amazing, incredible experience, where I felt deep love, like eternal love, like this thing that, you know, it sounds whatever spooky to talk about. But that experience inspired me to continue to practice like that. And then to practice it with myself. And so, you know, as I mentioned, I'm going through this incredibly painful and also beautiful relationship transition -- and one of the things that we've been struggling with is the idea that love is unconditional. But relationships are conditional. Skipper: Oh, sure. Yeah. Karen: You know, like, I do love you unconditionally. And I know that I am loved unconditionally by this person. But the kind of relationship that we had/have is conditional upon, you know, certain things that we want or need for our lives. And so navigating that, it's so easy to unconditionally love a stranger. I mean, it's my favorite. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: Because it's so easy because there are no conditions. I don't need anything. There's no, you know, I can walk away, but relationships are conditional. And so I felt in conflict with this because I have to say, I do love and accept you exactly as you are, with an asterisk that I need this other thing to change if we are going to be on the same path together. And he says that about me as well, you know, and so, which is just like, Oh, fuck, well, is that, is that not love? Are we not loving each other? And it's hard. It's really, really hard, because I think that that love is there. But that's the practice that I would like to encourage people to take into their lives. And just like, oh, you know, when I talk about non judgement, a lot of people come to me and say, Oh, well we can't receive everyone and we can't be non-judgmental, and it would be unsafe, and we can't just let everyone in and yada yada yada, but I mean, I get it that we do need to use discernment in our lives for our safety. That is true. Skipper: For sure. Karen: Non-judgement isn't a virtue that should be practiced at all times. Non-judgment is a practice that should be employed in situations in order to get through the obstacles of our own fear and pain and trauma and boundaries. And so non judgement -- it's not that I never have any kind of discernment or conclusion about a person or situation, it's that I have to hone that the muscle of resisting that impulse in order to learn in order to receive in order to just be present with somebody. Skipper: Right. I think we could continue to talk through this topic. Karen: (Laughs) Skipper: This has been such a compelling conversation for me, so thank you. Let's jump into some of our closing questions or some of the closing questions that I ask of people on the podcast, understanding that we've talked about a lot of stuff -- what's one of the most important lessons that you've learned thus far in your life for your work? Is there something that you wish you would have learned earlier? And I also understand we had that whole section about present tense and I firmly believe in that, so -- is there something that you wish you would have learned before now? Karen: I wish I would have learned how to dialogue with myself earlier. I spent a lot of my life in conflict with myself, because I didn't know how to listen and dialogue. And I didn't learn that until seven years ago. And it was really, really life changing for me, because I started a relationship with myself. And I think that my life could have been really different had I done that a lot sooner. Skipper Chong Warson 51:42 Sure. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: There is that notion, I think more and more people are aware of the idea of talking and listening -- and I've heard from other people that they have a goal of listening as much as they talk. And I think the thing that you're saying here as well is that it's not about not speaking when someone else is, but it's also about having your own internal -- it goes the other way. We're not just it's not just surface right you to me and that's where all the conversation and dialogue and, you know, negotiation, transaction, all of that. There's also a whole other side, there's a whole other side to me, and there's a whole other side to you in a conversation, and then it gets even more complicated in a group dynamic. Karen: Yeah, absolutely. And especially if your group dynamic exists in your own head. Skipper: Right, right. Karen: It's a very interesting thing. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: You know, in the listening workshop that I do, I have an exercise where I invite one person to speak nonstop about themselves for five minutes. And the other person's job is only to prompt them if they get stuck, like saying, How so. Or, Tell me more. But not to say anything about themselves. Or interject at all, no comments. And most people have expressed to me that just having permission to not have to respond, enables them to receive so much more. They're able to hear a lot when they're not thinking about you know, offering something in return. And it really is -- it's an act of generosity to the listener, you know, to, because I think we also have a misconception about that talking is selfish. And listening is selfless. That's not true. Skipper: Yeah. Yeah. Karen: And also, that a lot of people process things by verbally out loud. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: And other people process things silently. And so you know, we're all really different in that way. I don't, I don't necessarily think that it has to be 50/50 on the verbiage but, but that idea that letting someone listen without responding is a gift. And just the same way that letting someone talk is a gift, and that both of those gifts are very valuable. Skipper: What's something that's currently capturing your attention right now? Like, is there something you're -- you talked how you're working on a book, but is there something you're just hooked on? Whether it be a book, a show, a podcast, or something else altogether? Karen: I will be honest, and tell you that I want to say that it's the second season of "The Bear." Skipper: Okay. Karen: Because I have indeed recently watched that season multiple times through because I think it's so beautiful. I'm also from Chicago, I lived a long time in Chicago. And I even have some friends that are in the series, actors. Skipper: Nice. Karen: But I think especially season two is so beautifully done, it's absolutely -- have you seen it? Skipper: I haven't yet. It's on my list, but I have not. I have not -- Karen: You must. Skipper: Okay. Karen: It is. It's beautiful. The characters are so well developed and they all have really beautiful arcs. And it's a densely complicated story emotionally and it's just, it's just wonderful. I liked the first season, but I love the second season. It's really, really special. And then that also the acting extraordinary episode six -- holy shit. Skipper: Okay. Karen: It's Jamie Lee Curtis and Bob Odenkirk. And, you know, like -- Skipper: Good grief, just a murderer's row of actors. Karen: Yeah, it's well, it's even more -- John Mulaney and more. And, you know, a lot of it's amazing. So, I do love that. But the reason I say I need to be honest, is that I've actually been -- my like, I call it brain babysitter, sometimes when I just need something to keep to babysit my brain so that I don't spin out. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: I watch shows for that reason. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: At night or whatever, I've been watching "Suits." (Laughs) Skipper: Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. Karen: It's just Netflix suggested it to me. And it seems like, it would be interesting enough to keep my attention, but not so captivating that it would take me over. And also, it's emotionally pretty untraumatic, which is all of those things are true. But the reason I love it, is that it's so much about storytelling, like the story itself, because it's a it's a lawyer story. It's all about lawyers, shaping the truth, shaping the facts, and like, and it's about negotiation, it's about trust and loyalty. And it's all this stuff about, you know, how do I shape the story in order to achieve a certain aim and, and it's amoral as hell. And so it's just, like, there's just a lot of, it's so it's just interesting. For me, it's very chewy, it gives my brain like all this chewy material to think about, you know, morality and truth and honesty and authenticity, and loyalty and respect. And like, all these other things that are kind of in play, and so I've been enjoying, I've been enjoying watching that, even though it's, you know, I would love to tell you that something like, more beautiful or spiritual, or, I mean, I have that too. I've been -- Skipper: Sure. Karen: I've been doing some really beautiful deep work in Jungian shadow work, but I just I'm just like, that's not I don't want to tell that on a podcast. You know what I mean? It's so funny because I just told you so many personal things, but I'm just, I just feel like there's something weird about like, I don't know, it feels virtue signally or something to just be like, let me tell you about the deep personal work I'm doing. I mean, whatever fucking doing the personal work all the time. Skipper: That's right. Karen: It's so hard to like, be a person and be on the spiritual path and irreverent and also be sincere. And interviewed and, you know, have the public knowing about me without feeling like I'm constructing this weird image of myself. And, yeah, I mean, I have all that shit. I want to seem cool, and smart, and deep and whatever lovable but I'm also just like, I might I suck right now. And I'm sorry, if I do. I don't want to suck, but I might. Skipper: No, but who is it to judge anyone else? It's the version of going and looking at someone's bookshelf when you go into their home. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: But what's even more personal, I think is what are the things that they're watching? Right? Because no one digs into someone else's Netflix queue or Disney or streaming service you use, like that is super personal. I mean, there are even some things that -- you talked about things being chewy, and I will watch anything with a superhero in it, because I grew up on comic books. Karen: Oh yeah? Skipper: And so I will, I've watched almost all of it. There's some things that are too long, or that I haven't gotten into yet, but I imagine that I will. And so even with my own wife or my family, but it's super personal to the point where I find myself actually removing it from my history when I watch it, because that's for me. It's not for anyone else. If someone else goes in and looks at my history, I don't need them to know that I watch it. Yeah. Karen: Yeah. Does it feel like a guilty pleasure? It seems like a guilty pleasure. Skipper: It's totally a guilty pleasure. And it's not something that I require -- like I don't, it's one of those things -- Karen: Where's the guilt though? Skipper: It's because I feel like there's a waste of time and energy that's happening, because I will watch all of it -- it's not even that I'll, well -- Karen: Yeah, I feel that way about TV in general -- like, I didn't even want to tell you I've been watching "Suits." Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: You know, I'm just like, No, I want people to think that all I do is meditate and do yoga at home. And that's not -- Skipper: For sure. Karen: I mean, I don't actually want people to think that but um, yeah, I get it. I have that stuff too. Skipper: It's a funny veneer. Yeah, for sure. Karen: Yeah. Skipper: All right. Let's switch gears to another question, this is great. I don't know what's going to end up in the show, but -- Karen: It's fine. It's fine. I haven't said anything that I'm unhappy with you sharing. Skipper: Okay. So imagine you unexpectedly had a day off. And money was no object and you could bend the laws of space and time and -- Karen: Oh my god. Skipper: And go anywhere you wanted it to, what would you do for that day? Karen: All of space and time? Skipper: All of space and time -- you want to go visit Pluto, you want to go back to the big bang, you want to have dinner with Abraham Lincoln. I don't know. Karen: I want to see my dad, who's dead. Skipper: Aw. Karen: No, he was horrible. He was an awful man. He was the worst. And we fought really, really badly and didn't speak for four years and then he died. And I even though -- like I've actually been, I've been coming to understand how much like him I am. And it's helped me forgive him and love him and be more curious about him. And I think like, it's so funny -- I didn't expect that to be my answer. But yeah, I would -- he lived in New Mexico in like some fucking Armageddon bunker that he -- he was kind of cult leader. And he, I mean, he's a fabulous, super intelligent, really incredible person, but with a lot of highly narcissistic tendencies. And, you know, also, like me was a microphone addict, just like, you know, needed to be talking all the time about his ideas. And I see it in myself, I mean, particularly since the TED talk, and like, all the podcasts and like, and I'm writing and, and he also wrote books, and he was a preacher, and he had a radio show, and like, you know, and I'm like, Oh, my God, he's coming, he has come forth. You know, and it's kind of a strange thing. But I also, I mean, he's a big part of my book too -- "Empathy for Assholes" -- because he was my first big asshole. And, and it's been like, realizing, you know, he was a preacher and had like a Christian family radio show, when I was really young, but he had an affair and left our family when we were all really young. And then he, you know, went on to spend years like preaching to, particularly to men about being husbands and fathers. And I've always just been like, What the fuck is wrong with you, you know, just like -- Skipper: The dichotomy of it. Karen: Yeah, the hypocrisy and the like -- but I say this, because recently, in seeing in my own empathy, work, and also in, in my own failures, in my personal relationships, how I've come to understand that we teach what it is we need to learn, and that it's possible he devoted his life to teaching men to be husbands and fathers because of his guilt. And because of his failure, and that, like, I came to understand that I think he was spending a whole life in atonement, but it just looked like this self-righteous, this arrogant, he made himself into this teacher, who was really, really hard to swallow. But now I'm like, Oh, man, he was in pain. He was in pain. And he was trying to work some things out that I didn't understand. And that I'm starting to understand. And also, I mean, he left when I was five and I met him much later in my life. And I remember our first phone conversation, realizing that we went so deep, so fast, because we asked the same questions, our brains, like, took the same path through an idea. And I'd never talked to anyone in my life like that. And I was like, Holy shit, he is my father. You know, I am made out of him. His DNA is in me, I like we share -- you know, we were like melded, and I just, I missed that, you know, even though we had some pretty bad fights and ended things badly. Like now, I just kind of sometimes really want to talk to someone who knows me because they are me. Skipper: Wow, that is -- thank you so much for sharing. It's such a -- And I also appreciate that that was an unexpected answer for you. Karen: Not a cool answer. I mean, it would like to go to another planet. Skipper: (Laughs) Karen: Or like, I want to go to Argentina. I want to, you know, whatever. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: There's some things I want to I've always wanted to see the midnight sun in the Arctic Circle. You know, there's stuff like that. I mean, I've got that stuff. But no, but when you gave me all the time and space. Yeah, it was Dad. Fuck. Skipper: Yeah. Karen: Now I'm gonna have to... Thanks, Skipper. Skipper: So, Karen, we've talked about some things -- we'll link to your TED talk. Are there other -- and we've mentioned your work with Others Unlimited, if people are interested in finding out more about you -- are there places that they should go? Karen: othersunlimited.com has a lot of information about the work that we do. And even though we haven't talked about really how it applies to work work today -- the work Others Unlimited does helps teams to communicate better, collaborate better. We give workshops, not just on listening and asking questions, but giving and receiving feedback and collaboration and customer empathy. And so this work is really transformative for teams, team culture, in terms of just giving everyone a shared vocabulary for some of these kind of wiggly concepts. A lot of us, you know, come to work with, well, all of us come to work with our whole, you know, history of learning about communication. And those histories are very, very different. So it helps to get on the same page in terms of understanding that what gets lost in translation, or -- Skipper: Yeah. Karen: Right now we're booking end-of-year engagements. So getting the planning together, or even just the team kumbaya at the end of the year. And that's something that's really beautiful, that's happening. And so get in touch with me, karen@othersunlimited.com. If you want to learn more about that, that's what I'm most excited about right now. Skipper: Great. Well, Karen, I really appreciate I've said thank you a few times already during our conversation, but I really appreciate you taking time and talking to me today. Karen: Thanks for the invitation. Skipper: And thank you for listening to How this Works. We appreciate your support. And we'd love it if you'd subscribe and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. We're in our second season and it would mean a lot if you could share the show with just one other person highlighting why they should listen. You can find us online at howthisworks.show. It's four words, no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active on various social media platforms. I hope you gained some valuable insights from today's conversation with Karen. I certainly did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Karen: The thing about -- you don't have to believe the truth because the truth doesn't need your belief. You know? Skipper: Oh yeah. Karen: And it's like, if you really, really need to be right. It's almost like it's because you know you're not right. Skipper: Right, right. Karen: You know, it's like if you if you really knew that you were right, you wouldn't need to prove it. Skipper: Right. Karen: Because it would prove itself. Skipper: Right. Karen: Yeah.