[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hi, my name is Skipper Chong Warson and I'm a design director in San Francisco. And you're listening to How This Works. This is a show where I invite people on to talk about things that they know an awful lot about. And today, I have Dr. Laura Sicola with me. And we're going to talk about how to use your voice to its best effect. Thanks for making time today, Laura. Laura Sicola: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Skipper: So, while we talk about the subject matters that my guests know a lot about, I want to start with you. And I'd love to find out what pronouns you use to refer to yourself. I use he and him. Laura: And I use she and her -- actually, I use I when I'm talking about myself, but -- Skipper: Sure. Laura: She is fine. Skipper: Okay. So Laura, can you tell us a little bit more about you? Like who are you? Laura: By trade, I am, and by training, I'm a linguist -- my work is all about understanding how speech works, and how speech is processed. How -- why there's a gap, for example, between sometimes what you think you say, and what somebody else thinks they hear. And if you're like me, you've been in that situation once or twice, perhaps in life -- and I love all the mechanics that go behind that. And how it helps people to establish better relationships, to avoid misunderstandings, and just to get to yes, to help progress by knowing that you've been heard and understood, and so has the person that you're speaking with. And when we can do that, that's where progress occurs. Skipper: Yeah. So Laura, what's something about you that many people might not guess? Laura: I lived in Japan for three years. And that was a great experience. Actually, it was broken up into two -- one was a year abroad in college, along with an internship and things and then a few years later, I went back to teach professionally at a high school with the city of Nagoya, that was a really great eye-opener on -- both times around -- but I think it fed me and what I do now in my work as an executive communications coach because miscommunications happen on the large and the small, right, and understanding culture, and how it influences the way we communicate, on the big scale with languages -- look, going to Japan was literally on the opposite side of the world. Skipper: Sure. Laura: And in many ways, the culture and the language feel like they're on the opposite side of the world, they feel the polar opposite. And, of course, when you look deep, you realize there are so many things that we all share, but learning to understand the big differences and to still recognize and accept and even appreciate the small differences, those nuances, that's where real understanding can occur. And learning to do that in a foreign language helps you be more sensitive to learning how to do it more effectively in your first language. Skipper: Hmm. I have so many questions around your experience in Japan, but we'll circle back to it throughout our conversation. Laura, can you -- and you know, I gave some of it away in the introduction, but -- can you frame for us what we're talking about today? What is the thing that you know a tremendous amount about? Laura: It's really about how -- where communication or miscommunication happens, and how to fix it to get to yes. So if you think about it, and I won't get too geeky technical at the moment, but my world is coming from if you imagine a Venn diagram with three circles in it -- the first circle is the math of language, you understand all the stuff that nobody bothers to think about, I don't think about how my computer works, I just want it to work. You don't think about how English works, you just use it. I get the math behind it. Skipper: Okay. Laura: Number two is cognitive processing and language. So how does speech process in the brain? What is it that makes what someone is saying go in one ear and out the other versus what makes it stick? And what makes you process it and work with it and where does it register, et cetera. Skipper: Okay. Laura: And then the third is okay, the geek language would be the socio-affective elements of it, otherwise known as the social filters where we create the changes -- on the one hand, how I choose to say what I'm going to say based on how diplomatic I want to be, how much detail I want to use, who my audience is, what effect I want to have, and, of course, the same filters, which you also have, which are going to influence how you interpret what I say. Whether you like it or don't, if you hear a compliment versus an insult, if you hear it all, those kinds of details where respect comes from or doesn't come from, depending on your perspective. So when you put all three of those things together, you get where influence comes from -- what does or doesn't work. And that's what the core essence of my work is about. I'm an influence coach, it's helping people in leadership positions, or anybody who reads my book, frankly, to have more influence by being more effective communicators in a way that allows you to be fully authentic, be yourself, but figure out how to adjust the approach in the way that you talk to somebody else, no matter who they are so that they can hear what it is that you want to hear, and still be you in the process. That's the real key. Skipper: I see, I love that you frame that out as a Venn diagram of three, slightly overlapping circles, the notion of the mechanics, the math of language -- I love that phrase -- cognitive processing, and then those social filters, and that were all three of those meet. That's a great visual. You have a great deal of experience in this field. How did you start? What was the kernel of interest for you? Laura: I think the first memory that I have of where it was, inevitably, a lifelong trigger, my grandmother -- my mother's mother -- was from Chile. And my mother was born there, too, they came up here when she was very young, to the United States. But I didn't see my grandmother a lot as a child, because they lived in a different state than we did. But she would come at Christmas. And I remember her on the phone, she would call her siblings who were still back in Santiago, Chile, and she would speak to them. And to me, it was like this magic power, this superpower to have this secret code that she could do this thing where she'd make all these weird sounds, and somebody else would understand it and make those sounds back. And I was so jealous that she had this secret power. And I was outside the circle. And of course, everybody else knows that secret magic code is Spanish, but I was five at the time and didn't understand it, I just knew it was so cool that she could do this. And I just thought I need to know how to do that. I want to be able to talk in the secret code, too. And that just was a trigger from the time that I was probably five or six of wanting to know foreign languages and just being fascinated by the whole thing. Skipper: I see. And was that part of the exercise in going to Japan? Not only go to a different geography but then also to speak Japanese and all of those inherent parts? Laura: It definitely was a part of the process -- over the years. So I was always interested in foreign languages from that point, studying Spanish in middle school, in high school, and got pretty good at it. And then by college, I realized, Okay, I'm gonna have four years to dedicate intensively to picking up another language. So I didn't want to do more Spanish because I was not interested in literature. And those -- I didn't like that in English. So I was not going to want to do it in a foreign language. And so I thought, well, another romance language, I could probably pick up more easily some other time in life. So let me pick something a little more challenging. Skipper: Okay. Laura: Well, I got what I asked for. And I thought, well, what's a good business language to complement Spanish in the world and thinking as an 18-year-old, and we're going back to the early 90s, at that point. So the Japanese economy was really strong. And it just seemed like, Well, that was an interesting place to go. And they were more stable than other countries as far as government and that kind of stuff. So I somehow talked my parents into letting me go to Japan for a year for an abroad program, which I'm sure they had their hearts in their throats the entire time, having never been there and not knowing anything about the country or culture. But that was the initial motivation. And so I majored in international studies, specifically Japanese and East Asian Studies. And of course, minored in the language from there. So it was a pretty hardcore focus from early on. Skipper: I see. Take us from so you have in early childhood, you have this interest in other languages. One way that it manifests is this year abroad in college. And then a few years later, how else have you followed this path to get to where you are? Laura: Everything that I have done has been somehow around language and culture, communication and education. That's been the unifying thread or threads through it. So after college, shortly thereafter, went to Los Angeles and started teaching in elementary school in a bilingual program in South Central LA and that was back to Spanish again, even after spending four years of Japanese, so it was bilingual English and Spanish. And that was a very different world also because it was in education and I had to do some quick tap dancing to get certified to be a teacher. But my Spanish from learning in high school in New Jersey, and I had an exchange student from a year for a year from Ecuador. And I was pretty fluent, all things considered, but not in Los Angeles, inner-city, immigrants mix Spanish -- and that was a whole different world and learning, understanding where there were cultural elements and where I had to integrate into a very, very different community, different society and navigate all the intricacies of that, which was a lot of fun, and challenging and wonderful in all those ways. And then I moved to Japan, again, after a few years to a high school to develop a curriculum for a Japanese Magnet school up there. And that was a different world, because it's a different kinds of bureaucracy, and it's a different culture and different language, and had to relearn a lot of those. And then when I came to Philadelphia, later on, it was for graduate school, and I did my Ph.D. at the University of Pennsylvania in educational linguistics. And that was all looking at speech, how speech is processed, how speech is learned, how foreign languages are learned, how the culture influences language, and all that kind of stuff. So the academic research was all there. And one thing led to another and the hanging out a shingle later on and evolving into entrepreneurship, and executive communication coaching and all that was -- it did all spiral in sort of one tangent after another, although I suppose, you know, spirals and tangents don't necessarily work together from a geometric standpoint, but from a metaphor, they will. And but one thing led to another, and it did all build, because my initial coaching work as an independent, was working with international professionals in the United States, who maybe had master's degrees from American universities, maybe not, but were not native English speakers, even though there are fluent. So if you think about your risk analysts at banks, your pharmaceutical researchers, statisticians, you know, those kinds of more numerically oriented, typically, I was working with all international clients, Chinese, Indian, you name it, Russian, and trying to help them bridge the gap between being technically fluent and fitting in effectively into the culture of an organization and being seen as potential leaders. Skipper: Hmm. Laura: Because there was that gap, they would be the first ones to be hired to do the technical jobs, but the last ones to be considered for a leadership level promotion. Skipper: Sure. Laura: And it was always due to a communications gap on many levels. So helping them with that. And then there was a pivot, frankly around 2013, when I shifted to make it not just about the International, expat, non-native English speaker, but everybody because frankly, it's easier to work with native speakers than non-native speakers. Because everybody's -- I learned that everybody, regardless of native language, was struggling with the same communication challenges. How do I get that stakeholder -- my boss, my prospective clients, my co-workers to understand my point? How do I get them to appreciate my concerns, to accept the pitch I'm going to give them? How do I get through? How do I get the yes? It's just adding one extra layer -- or 40 extra layers, as the case may be when you're dealing with somebody from a foreign language and foreign cultural background. Skipper: Sure. Laura: So I just thought, Well, why can't I do this for everybody? And that's where it became more about leadership communication. And those nuances overall. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: So that's been the long and short trajectory. Skipper: So what came first, the coaching or your book? Laura: Oh, coaching definitely came first. Yes, I've been coaching since 2008 and the book just came out in 2019. Skipper: Okay. I couldn't remember the exact publication date -- and I just wanted to make sure. Because that's another thing that I wanted to mention is that you've put a lot of what you've learned, one of the outputs that you've created in your career is a book, it's called "Speaking to Influence". And we'll link to it in the show notes. Upfront in the book, you make a very clear distinction between the notions of persuasion, manipulation, and influence. Can you talk about that a little bit more, about how do we get to this idea of an agreement? Laura: Sure. My goal is always to help people master what I like to call the three C's. And that's the ability to command the room, connect with the audience, and close the deal. And closing the deal doesn't necessarily signing on the dotted line. It's about getting to yes. Just moving the needle, agreeing to whatever the next step is going to be. Skipper: Sure. Laura: And all of those things are about influence, right, to command the room, or, in our case to command the screen -- how do you captivate people's attention? And then to connect with the audience is, do you feel like you get them and that they get you somehow? Is there a mutual understanding, is there a connection with the audience? And then closing the deal, of course, is that next agreeing on next steps, moving the needle. So in doing that, it's all about influence. And influence is about having an impact on someone's behavior. Skipper: Okay. Laura: And it can be small, it can be about how they think and how those thought processes and feelings may influence their choices down the line. Or it can be large or small but a lot of it can be measured, for example, by how do people behave when you're not in the room. Skipper: Okay. Laura: What do they do when you're not there? And you know what, so for example, a story that's in the book, a couple of years ago, I had an intern, I worked with a number of them over the years, and I was looking, the one I had, she was getting ready to graduate so I needed to get a new one. And I was interviewing and I had picked a candidate. And I said, but I want you to talk to the current intern first, and just get her take on it. Because that's going to be the reality of your job. And I don't want to influence what that conversation looks like, you know, she needs to be able to be honest with you -- good and bad. And they must've had a good conversation because the intern -- the new one -- agreed to come on. And when she started, I said, out of curiosity, you know, was there anything that Christina had said in your conversation that pushed you over the edge? To accept this? Skipper: Yeah. Laura: And she said, Yeah, she said, when you're doing these projects, and I was hiring them to work on a rather large project, at the time she said, when there are major deadlines, just know that there will be a few nights when you're going to be up until two o'clock in the morning. And you just sort of accept it and you go with it. [Christina] said, But Laura is going to be there on Skype -- at the time we were using -- right there with you until it's done. And she said, That is what convinced me. Because the idea was that it's not just somebody who tells you, here's what you have to do. It's that we're in this together, you lead by example, that there's integrity there, that there's trust, that there's, you know, all that kind of stuff. And she's like, Okay, yeah, the 2 am part is not great when they happen. But you're willing, and that's the difference between being a boss and being a leader, right? When you're a boss, people have to follow you because the org chart says so when they want to cash their check at the end of the week or month, but when you're a leader, and your leadership has a perception. Skipper: Okay. Laura: So when someone perceives you as a leader, because let's face it, you can have a boss who you do not view as a leader. Skipper: Sure. Laura: But if they perceive you as a leader, they will follow you willingly. And they will give generously. And it's from the heart because they believe in your shared vision. And that there was an ethos, and there was a culture, even among our very small team that was we're in this together. And we do this together because we want to achieve a certain thing together. So that was the influence part that came on. As far as persuasion and manipulation, persuasion is a strictly verbal form of influence. It's a logical argumentation, bribery, or whatever else. But it's more about the oral convincing -- Skipper: Sure. Laura: -- of someone to do it. For me, there's negative persuasion as well, you know, you put a gun to my head, it's pretty persuasive. But manipulation is a kind of persuasion or influence, but that is deliberately malintended, right, where you're trying to get somebody to do something that you know they don't want to do and it's not necessarily in their best interest, but it's in yours. So it's putting the needs of yourself above somebody else, and kind of strong-arming them into doing it. That's more the manipulation. So we want to avoid that. And I think it's important to recognize that all skills that you learn, whether it's about communication, software development, internet use, etc. -- all skills can be used for good or used for evil. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: So anything you learn from me, I will never teach you to manipulate -- that does not mean that you couldn't choose to use it to manipulate somebody. And I can't stop you from doing that. Hopefully, I can have a good influence on you. Skipper: Sure. Laura: And you'll decide not to. But it is all about what are the skills and then how do you choose to apply them? Skipper: Yeah. One thing that I want to pull out of what you're saying and having read through your book, you know, your book isn't just for folks who are managing people, right or in leadership roles or in management roles. You have a great story that you tell in the book where you talk about when you and your husband first got married. He would use this line on you, he would say, Well, I was trained in logic, and so, therefore, da da da da, can you talk about that a little bit more? Laura: Sure. It's funny that you bring that up because even he laughs about it now, and I'll say it kind of semi facetiously when we're disagreeing on something he'll look and he'll smile, Well, you know, I was trained in logic. Or I'll say to him first. Well, you know, I think this, and I know, you think that, but then again, you were trained in logic. So I suppose I should just -- My husband's an attorney so that's a big part of law school is, you know, being trained in logic, trained in logic, trained in logic. But, you know, whenever, initially, when we were in a disagreement on something, he'd get to a certain point where he just was tired of the discussion and wanted to sort of end it. And so what he would use as kind of his trump card -- as a bridge reference, card game reference, not political reference as the trump card -- was to just say, Well, look, I was trained in logic. So that certainly initially led to a lot bigger arguments. But when I started to realize the pattern, you know, I was able to say to him, Look, when you say this to me, what I hear is that your three years in law school, 25 years ago, trained you to do this so, therefore, you must always be right. And if I disagree with you that I must always be wrong. And apparently, my seven years of grad school to get my Ph.D. was in underwater basket weaving and tiddlywinks or something and therefore I am trained in illogic and I must always be wrong. So I should just defer to you as a default. And you know, how do you think that makes me feel? And what do you expect me to do with that? He kind of stopped at one point, stepped back, and went, Okay, I can see where that would come across that way. And, you know, he sort of backpedaled generously and said, You know, I respect you, I respect your work, I respect your education, and I don't mean any of that negative stuff, but I could see where you're -- and he's, you know, never used it since, other than in that sort of tongue in cheek way, when we're both sort of playing. Skipper: Yeah. I also want to pull out one more detail about your book, in that your book is not about tips and tricks. Laura: No. Skipper: This is not how to quickly get to persuasion or influence. The subtitle is mastering your leadership voice and keeping that in mind, who is this book for? And what is it for? Laura: Narrowly, you know, in Amazon, it's listed as a leadership/business management book, however, as you have pointed out through the examples that you've brought up, among other things, it is meant for anyone who just wants to hear yes more often. Anybody tired of feeling like if you hear yourself constantly repeating, either out loud in frustration, or in your own mind, saying, I'm so frustrated, you know, why don't they get it? Right? Why don't they understand that? Why don't they hear what I'm saying? Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Why do I keep getting push back? Why am I always hitting a wall on this? And it's not necessarily that you're right or wrong. That's not the point. But something about the way that you are approaching that person, group, organization, whatever it is, is a square peg to a round hole. So you need to be able to redirect, understand something else about what their priorities are, what their concerns are, where they're hamstrung, where they do or don't have the flexibility to adapt in one way, shape, or form -- or what their conscious or unconscious biases are. And how can you adjust your approach? So that whatever your message is gets through. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Because it's not always going to be on the first try, Here, take it, accept it, say yes, move on, do it my way, that almost never works. Skipper: Right. A lot of the things that we've talked about thus far have to do with active strategies or are active examples of being aware of cultural biases. You talked about being aware of the way they were positioning language, but there's a whole chapter in your book about listening, how important is the listening side to that equation? Laura: I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question. Skipper: Yes. (Laughs) Laura: So obviously, listening skills are critical. And it's frustrating because most people listen to respond. And I liken it to if you've ever seen or you've ever tried it yourself or otherwise seen a video of kids doing double dutch jump rope on the playground. Skipper: Mmm. Laura: If you can imagine it, you know, the two ropes are spinning, and as they are crisscrossing over and over again, you hear thwack, thwack, thwack as they hit the ground -- Skipper: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Laura: And the person who's getting ready to jump in is standing on the outside, and they're kind of rocking back and forth with the rhythm of it -- waiting, waiting, waiting. Like, can I jump in? Can I jump in? Okay, now, no, wait, wait, okay, now -- Skipper laughs. Laura: And they jump in. And there's this anticipation and it's all about just finding that perfect opening for you to leap in — Skipper: Yeah. Laura: And those two rotating ropes, it's like how we listen to other people speak. It's like we're just watching, waiting for a breath, waiting for a pause, waiting for something, and I'm going to jump in now, you're not really listening to appreciate that person's concerns, priorities, perspective of any way. So we're just listening to respond. And that's where we come to that very initial impasse. Because frustration, when two people are arguing and arguing and arguing, if there were little thought bubbles above each person's head, both people would be thinking about the other person and sometimes saying, You're not listening to me. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: And when both people feel like you're not listening to me, then they're not willing to hear the other person either. Most people feel like once I feel heard, once I feel understood, once I feel like you're trying to understand me, and hopefully you do, then I can relax enough. And then I can hear you better. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Then I will listen to you, then I'm willing to concede some ground, listen to you, and try to understand you. But if you're in an argument with somebody or in a disagreement, and you can tell that they're more emotionally invested at the moment than you are, let them talk first because they will not be able to hear you until they get it out of their system -- the adrenaline subsides, the fog clears a little bit, and then okay, but they need you to listen, hear, and understand. Model it first genuinely. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Sincerely. And then, they can go from there. But that's absolutely mission-critical. Skipper: Yeah. You know, right now, so many people are doing their jobs remotely. Laura: Yes. Skipper: They're on a lot of video meetings, we're actually having our conversation on a video. We had a pre conversation before we're taping today and you talked about this idea of how with everyone on video, and everyone's on video these days, for some reason, whether it's school, catch up phone calls, or professional reasons, we all want a disclaimer that says, We're more awesome in person. So how do we overcome some of these challenges that are inherently built into the digital medium, that aren't necessarily in place when we're doing these things in person? Laura: Well, there's a whole lot in that bag. You know, when you think about the challenges of -- I'm going to summarize what I think you're tying all together. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: In that, you know, with regard and tell me if I'm often if you want me to focus on, you know, one specific area or another, but there's, on one hand, the challenge of, Are you clear in conveying what you want to convey? And in understanding what they're trying to convey when, for example, you don't necessarily see people's body language, or you can't see if you're the speaker on a Zoom call, and everybody else has their cameras off, you can't read the room, as it were, people can't interact that well, or there's a lot of dynamics that are different when you're not all in the room together. So there are those challenges. But then there are also challenges on video, like confidence, a lot of people are extremely self-conscious on video. So they hold back, or they are not skilled at how to be effective on camera. So they don't even realize that they're sabotaging their own authority, because they talk/look/sound -- based on audio quality, based on camera angles, based on lighting, based on lots of little mechanical things that they look immature. They look unconfident, they sound bad, you know that even you and I have really good microphones. But if I were to switch over to -- wonder if it will let me switch? Let me try this, so if I click the settings here? Nope. It's not letting me do it midstream so most people -- if they're just using their default microphone that comes with their laptop or desktop -- (muffled) they kind of sound like this -- Skipper: Yeah. Laura: (Muffled) And when everybody sounds like this, you just assume it's normal and you accept it. But it makes you sound lousy. (Not muffled) And then suddenly, if another person starts to talk, and you hear this crystal clear sound, you naturally subconsciously give their words more weight. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: You want to listen, your brain zeroes in on that sound. And then again, if the next person shows up if the next person is you and you show up and (muffled) you sound like this one more time. (Not muffled) Then, as you're talking because there's that fog over your voice, it gives people the cue, You know what, go ahead, check your email while they're talking. It's not that important. Skipper: Right? Laura: So there are so many things that we do virtually that just we don't even realize sabotage our own influence and effectiveness. Look at what we talked about -- what is persuasion versus influence. Okay, well, if we're having that conversation, this conversation, and then somebody else starts to talk (muffled) and they sound like this -- Skipper: Sure. Laura: (Not muffled) What impact does that have, if your lousy sound quality is a cue to somebody else to say, they are not that important. Go ahead, check your email, look at your text messages on your phone, but you don't have to pay attention, because they're not that important, you just had a huge influence on that person, you have now made them stop paying attention and gone to quote, unquote, multitask, which I'm pretty sure is defined nowadays as paying attention to anything except you. Skipper: Right. Laura: Because of your sound that influenced their choice of action and not in your favor. Skipper: Right. Laura: So that's not manipulating. It's not persuasion, but it sure is influence. So and all those kinds of things about how to be effective here there is that is the focus of the course that I launched last month, which is called Virtual Influence. And you can check it out at virtualinfluence.today. But the whole idea is, as you sort of mentioned in the beginning, that most of us do feel like in person, we know what we're doing, you know, we're professionals, we're experts in stuff, and that when we have to suddenly see each other on video, we don't feel as proficient. And we do, I think a lot of clients that I work with, a lot of groups I speak to do feel like they wish they could have a little disclaimer along the bottom that says, I just want you to know, if you met me in person, you'd be impressed. Just throwing that out there. So whatever you're about to experience here with me, take it with a grain of salt. That should not be our default. But it is and that has influence, just not the kind that you want. Skipper: Right. That notion of this is just a meeting, you know, even the idea of well, this is just a meeting that I'm listening in on, right, and not necessarily contributing to so -- Laura: Sure. Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. I think we all have that mindset to some degree about this thing that we're doing for the next 30 minutes, next hour. We're just doing this thing, minimizing it a little bit. Laura: Sure. Yeah, just is one of the four-letter words of the decade. Absolutely. And when you think about it, you know, if you're on a call with a group, and you keep your camera off, what message does it send? Skipper: Right. Laura: I mean, why would somebody keep the camera off? Well, either they're self-conscious and don't want to be seen, or they don't want you to see what's behind them. Or they don't want you to know what they're doing. Because they're multitasking, they're on their phone, they're walking around, they're not here, not present, not focused. You know, it's certainly doesn't say, I'm confident I'm here, I'm present, you can trust me, it just says you don't need to know. And/or, you know, it just shows that it's a lack of respect toward the speaker because if you are the speaker, and you're talking, you wouldn't want to be sitting there talking to a screen full of black boxes with names in them. You would want to see faces that you could, you know, engage with and read. And so why would you not give the speaker the same courtesy that you would want the audience to give you? Somebody has to start the generosity wheel on this. Skipper: Well, and I would point out that you have taken your own advice in this way in going back and doing research on you as a person and your work. And you look at some of the videos that you've posted over the years, you've changed your background, right, in the last year and a half. You've now changed the background in that you have the name of your business, you have your book name, you have your name up there. So it looks like you know, you're at a red carpet event and this is -- Laura: My step and repeat banner. Skipper: Yeah, exactly. So you take this advice very seriously, even for yourself. Laura: Yes, you have to and that's part of influence, right, is the integrity of leading by example, as opposed to doing as I say, not as I do. And that is important, especially now that so much of my coaching is about helping people be more influential here in this digital space. But if I look like a schlub, why would you hire me to help you look professional and authoritative and relatable, and trustworthy? And all that kind of fun stuff? So yes, if you look at the media channel, or any of my YouTube videos, or things I posted on LinkedIn over the years, yeah, my location has changed dramatically. But when I realized about a year ago that I was going to launch a podcast and we needed some slightly more official setup, equipment-wise, etc. And of course, when COVID hit and I realized, okay, we're going to be sitting here for a much longer period of time, I did want to up the brand and have something that was more official-looking because this is what I do. So it has to reflect the brand, image, the brand reputation, and I'll just be the name, but the overall brand quality and brand promise that I give. So when you look and listen to what I say, the delivery of the message through the sound quality, through the visual layer on the screen, etc, has to reflect the quality of the applications of what it is that I'm actually teaching in the first place. Skipper: Yeah. So, in addition to some of the things that we've talked about in your book, your course, and we'll make sure to link that -- you also gave a TEDx talk that's garnered over 6 million views. And in the talk, you cite a study that looked at verbal and nonverbal messaging cues, including the words, vocal delivery, body language, and the relative impact that each of those things has. Can you share the stats that explain why that's so important? And I'm asking this question because in your talk itself, you reference how sometimes the data from this study is misused. Laura: Yes. Skipper: So I want to make sure we put a finer point on it and quote, unquote, get it right. Laura: Thank you, I appreciate that opportunity to do some myth-busting along the way and set the record straight, it is probably the single most misquoted statistic in communications research. And that's the idea that when you break down speech into three channels when you think about it and this is only oral speech, communicating through three channels all at the same time, there's your words, your voice, and your body language. Skipper: Okay. Laura: And the words are the what you say -- that's the verbal channel, verb, you know, words and verbs, nouns, etc. Think of it as your transcript. Skipper: Okay. Laura: What do you see on paper? The vocal is the sound of those words, as they come out, which is not the same because when you think about it, the phrase -- two words -- nice haircut. On paper, I could write it down twice looks completely identical. But if once I say, "Nice haircut." And once I say, "Nice... haircut." Skipper: Yeah, totally different. Laura: Totally different, right? So in that case, all the meaning is in the delivery, right? It's in the tone. Like one makes you want to say thank you very much. And one makes you want to say something else very much. So that's the verbal versus vocal distinction. And then the third is the visual, and that's the body language. So if you're having a conversation with somebody, and through a little bit of an argument, you say, "Could just let me finish what I'm saying please?" And they go, "Okay, fine." Skipper: Right. Laura: And they put their chin on their hand, they roll their eyes, and stare at the ceiling with this sort of slanted mouth going, "All right, fine, I won't talk. You keep talking, I'm listening." You're going, I'm gonna punch you in your mouth. No, you're not listening. That's not listening. That's completely condescending and insulting. And that just is gonna prolong this discussion, because now I'm officially insulted. And all that kind of stuff. So you're, you're -- Skipper: I'm pretty sure my seven-year-old did that yesterday. Laura: It's like, thank you for channeling your inner seven-year-old. Awesome. How old are you again? Skipper: That's right. Laura: This is not an effective, productive conversation that we're having. So you know, it's one of those things where sometimes you don't even have to open your mouth, your face says everything. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: And that can get us in even more trouble than our mouth sometimes. So the point being, when you look at those three channels, if all of them are in alignment, if they're all communicating the same thing, at the same time, I say, "Nice haircut", I am smiling. It's sincerely not a smirk, and my tone of voice is friendly about it, you know, you'll perceive alignment, and you'll appreciate that this was genuinely a compliment. But when the words and the voice, you know, when the one eyebrow is cocked, the voice goes (vocalizing downwards sound). Even though the words say, "Nice haircut", the words don't match the two other channels, right there. There's something incongruous, there's something that's a mixed message. And so the goal is to make sure that the message is always aligned if you want people to understand the inherent meaning of the words as they are. Skipper: Sure. Laura: But when there are mixed signals, then the audience's attention doesn't know where to go. And it gets disproportionately divided up between those different channels. And what the research shows is that again, when you're sending mixed messages, the audience is trying to figure out which part to trust, which part to anchor onto. And it is the audience is most likely, their brains will tune in first to what they see -- seeing is believing. So if I see your face, and you've got that smirk, and the one eyebrow cocked and whatever else, I'm already going to use that as a filter to interpret everything else. Because seeing is believing. Laura: Sure. Laura: So what the statistics showed is about 55 -- this is a seminal study, actually from back in the '60s that has been built on over the years, Albert Mehrabian's work -- that about 55% of their divided attention will anchor on to your physical communication, your body language, and facial expressions, if it doesn't match everything else and from there about 38% of their attention or how they wait, deciding what to believe -- Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Is based on the tonality of your voice, the highs and the lows, and the melody of it. So when you think about the difference in those two nice haircut examples, nice haircut, mm-hm-mm. Versus nice... haircut, mm-mmm-mmmm. Skipper: Right. Laura: So the melody is different. And that's the second strongest factor. And then that only leaves about 7% of the weight that people place on what to believe on the actual words that you choose. And that's the words "Nice haircut", which in this case, doesn't help me at all right to figure out what you mean. So, again, the goal is to ensure that your words, voice, and body language are in alignment because then those stats -- 55%, 38%, 7% -- they don't exist because it's just 100% focusing on the message. Now, if you intend to be sarcastic, then you've deliberately misaligned because you want them to read the insincerity of the words. That is a different ballgame. But I just use that as a simple example to show the different channels. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: You hear people say very broad generalizations like, Well, you know, 55% of all communication is nonverbal. And sometimes I've even heard, Well, you know, 93% of all communication is nonverbal. I'm going, Yeah, no, that's not it at all. So if you hear somebody say that, go, Oh, no. Laura said, No, that's not the case. So you have my permission to go and be extremely ardent with that person and set the record straight. Skipper: Cool. Well, in your book, you talk about two of those areas, right? You talk about vocal delivery and you talk about body language, and how that ladders into how we might prepare. And I think this is relevant, especially now, because we are having a lot of remote meetings, video meetings, where we're doing presentations, you know, lots of show and tell -- myself professionally as a design director, a fair amount of my day is engrossed in preparing decks, designing decks, the slides, the numbers, the text, asking, Are we telling the right story? So all of those things, you know, graphics, animation, how much does that matter? How much does it matter to -- because I feel like 90% of my work is usually spent slaving over the actual presentation. Laura: Yes. Skipper: And scant 10% is used for, you know, running through any sort of keywords, plot points, or other things that I want to hit. And then the how of it, how do I talk about it? Laura: Yes, that is a big challenge. Because it's not to say that in the book -- I talk about all three channels equally, that's not just that I only talk about the delivery part. But when you think about how most people prepare, if anybody out there thinks about how they prepare for meetings, presentations, pitches, or whatever it is, it usually is 98 point something percent on the content, right, getting the slides making the spreadsheets, the handouts, the agendas, the emails, your talking points, all that kind of stuff. It's all about the what -- Skipper: Yeah. Laura: What I'm trying to argue is that if so much of your work, is put there, and basically none of your preparation efforts is put on working on how you deliver it, how you execute it. Ask yourself, what are the odds that your delivery will come through in full alignment? And it's not about sincere versus sarcastic necessarily, as with the haircut example, but things like if you're trying to pitch your business, or you're trying to pitch for a promotion, or you're trying to pitch an idea to your group, to your client, to whoever it is, you know, (imitating vocal fry) you're kind of talking like this, and with vocal fry, when you're kind of creaking out and it may start okay, but you keep sort of trailing off. And it's just because (back to normal voice) you're really tired of being on Zoom all the time. And you know, you haven't moved in like eight hours. So you've got a butt divot-shaped hole in the bottom of your chair, and you're just sort of sick of being here. So it doesn't matter that what you're saying is all true and your idea's good. But -- Skipper: Yeah. Laura: If I'm trying to project authority, confidence, leadership, passion, and trustworthiness, and all that kind of stuff, the fact that I sound like (imitating vocal fry) this as I'm going through my slides, slide one bullet A, B, C, slide two, chart, graph, blah, blah, blah. It (back to normal voice) just sucks the life out of it. And you're going, Oh, my word please... stop... talking... Skipper: (Laughs) Laura: So that has influence, just not the kind you want. So you do really need to pay attention to -- okay, do you need to energize? Do you need a cup of coffee? Do you need to walk around a little bit and stretch beforehand? Can you do a little bit of recording? Just your opening slide? How do you welcome people, what tone do you set at the start of the meeting? Are you excited to be here? Are you thanking everybody for taking time out of their day to listen to this? Whatever it is, are you seeking input? How do you want them to participate? What do you tell them? And what does it sound like? Watch, set or take your iPhone, turn on the video camera and just rehearse that first opening slide. Yeah, what's it gonna sound like? And then you watch yourself. There are some things where you go, that's really good. And there are some things you'll see and hear that will make you go, Oh my gosh, okay, no, don't do that again. So, you know what, when you are clear on that, and you can then control it, to make sure that you're conveying what you want to convey because we all say things like, I want to be seen as intelligent and as confident and as passionate. And as that -- well, what did those sound like? Because it's not just about how good are the ideas. How accurate are your equations and your numbers and your stats and whatever you've crunched, but it's about do they buy into you? Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Before they buy into your idea. Because that is usually what's required. And that's a problem you need to see -- is your delivery sabotaging your content? Before you even get past hello? Skipper: Yeah. Laura: So... Skipper: That's a really good distinction. Laura, we're getting to the end of the time that we've planned to talk today. And I want to make sure there isn't some subject matter that we haven't addressed that you want to get into. Laura: I think what's most important, frankly, is to recognize that this is every bit is relevant with your coworkers, boss, employee, colleague, client, vendor, or otherwise, as it is with people in your personal life. And it is -- whether it's with your spouse, significant other, your children, your neighbors, your friends, and co parishioners at church, temple, mosque, wherever you go -- or religious house, it always applies, it just would be applied slightly differently for that audience. And the real key is to recognize that you can adapt for each of those contexts and each of those audiences and still be you. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: That authenticity piece is essential because if you're faking it, people can smell fake like dogs smell fear. Skipper: 100%. Laura: And so that'll just rip the rug right out from under you. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: But you do need to think about how to adjust for that particular group, even if you're giving feedback to an employee, is one employee extremely sensitive, and is very concerned about making everybody happy. Versus another one who's just like, just tell me. All right, tell me, I'll fix it. You know, whatever, just -- Skipper: Yeah. Laura: Okay, but adjust your approach, because they both need to hear it differently. If you're too soft with the guy who likes the sledgehammer, he's going to see you as wishy-washy and weak and not respect you. And if you're too direct with the one who needs the feather touch, then they're gonna be crushed and not be able to process what you want them to focus on, they're going to over-focus on irrelevant details. So you do need to adjust and it's what I refer to as your prismatic voice. And that's in the book as well. But the idea being, you've seen all those little crystal-y things that people hang on windows in the car, that kitchen, wherever, and the sunshine comes through, hits it, and then you see the little rainbow out the other side, the same way that all those rainbow colors are in the white light that a prism allows to come through, you are white light, I am white light, each of us is white light. And we have all those colors inside and the context that we're in -- whoever we're talking to, for whatever purpose is that prism. And for the purposes there, we need to figure out which of all those rainbow colors needs to come out. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: For it to be most effective -- you mentioned you've got a seven-year-old, I have a four-year-old. And I don't know about you, I don't talk to my son like I'm talking to you here. It would not fly nor am I going to talk to you and do this interview the same way I talk to him because I would never get another client again -- at least not for what I'm trying to sell now. It doesn't work. But it's not that either one of those is the real us and the other one is the fake us. It's just that, you know, we could call this our blue voice and call that parenting voice hour orange or something and you just know, okay, here, turn up the hue, a little more blue here, turn it down a little more orange. But it's all us. And learning to pivot your professional communication in that same way helps you feel authentic and grow at the same time. Skipper: Yeah. I want to put a finer point on that because in reading your work and preparing for this interview, you're not teaching people how to act differently. If this is not -- you're not an acting coach. Laura: Nope. Skipper: But really, it's about bringing out your best and most effective self. Laura: Absolutely, couldn't have said it better myself. Absolutely not a performer, not -- You want to see something ugly? Give me a Shakespeare script and tell me to do something with it. The best thing I can do is maybe make an airplane and even that won't be very good. I'm definitely not a performer in that sense. I mean, I love being on stage, love public speaking, but that's different. I'm not an actor, couldn't teach you to act if my life depended on it. So thank you for that very important distinction. And it is all about being yourself and just letting the best part of you shine through. Skipper: Yeah. So Laura, let's get into some of the closing questions that I ask all the guests. What's one of the most important lessons that you've learned so far in your life? Laura: Woo. There have been a lot, that's for sure. I think one really important one, when dealing with conflict, and conflict can be in any kind of context -- be it culture shock, in business culture or national culture or whatever, somebody does something that makes you go, What!? It is important to learn to respond, but not react. Skipper: Respond, not react, okay. Laura: Right. And the distinction between the two is that reacting is a reflex. It's gut-level instinctive, either fight or flight kind of response -- or reaction, I should say. To react more thoughtfully is to take a step back, and it's something that I like to call approach it with a split-brain perspective, where on the one hand, and this is has nothing to do with any of, you know, neurocognitive scientists out there, it's not about hemispheres. So take the metaphor here. But the idea is if you allow yourself, on the one hand, you acknowledge your own emotions, like, Oh, okay, this is very upsetting to me, or this is surprising or uncomfortable, or whatever it is, I don't like this, you're allowed to have your feelings, you can acknowledge them, you don't have to invalidate your feelings. Just don't let them control you, or how you respond, then back up, take a third party objective view a little out-of-body experience, vantage point for the moment, and say, Okay, what's happening? What did they say? Or do that surprises me? Why does it surprise me? And what else might be causing it? And if I don't know, perhaps I should ask some questions for clarification, or try to get more information to understand it better, before I dive in and, you know, launch with a retaliatory argument of some sort. Because often if you can, at least back-off and say, Okay, let's figure out what just happened here because I am missing something. Skipper: Yeah. Laura: And approach from that point of curiosity and suspending disbelief. For a moment, doing a little bit more forensic research, as it were, you'll probably find out more information that will help you appreciate where they were coming from. And then help them help you so to speak, and figure out a better way to respond that will mend fences and bridge gaps as it were, rather than digging holes deeper. Skipper: Okay. That's a really good piece of advice. So what are two things that you're excited about now? And the way I ask this question is I'm looking for what you're reading or something that you're watching -- the things that you're absorbing right now that if you were at a dinner party, these are two of the things that you wouldn't stop talking about. Laura: That's funny that you use that as an example because it's probably -- depending on the party -- I probably would not talk about this because, Yeah, we need a drink if you're gonna keep talking about this stuff. Let's get a refill first. The book that I'm just finishing now is a classic, but it's from the '60s, I forget exactly what year -- '64 or something like that by Maxwell Maltz called "Psycho Cybernetics". Skipper: Okay. Laura: And it is the foundation of a lot of psychology, but it's really looking at why people make certain choices. But it all stems from a self-image thing. And I know that sounds painfully touchy-feely and new age-y and whatnot, but it's the exact opposite. And anybody who knows me knows that I am not a foofy New Age-y, you know, no disrespect to New Age fans -- but I don't do fluff. Skipper: That's just not something you subscribe to. Laura: I couldn't do it if -- yeah, nope, not me. But this is hardcore science. And it's the psychology on which hypnotherapy is based. And hypnosis in general, it's the psychology behind it -- it was a seminal book when it came out and has become the foundation for so much more in modern psychology. But if you want to look at why we do what we do, why we don't break habits, no matter how much you try to manage time better, eat better. You know what you need to do like I can write the book on diet and exercise. Skipper: Sure. Laura: But am I going to stick with it? Well, sure, we'll talk about that at a different time. But now understanding why and why behaviors don't change and what it takes to change them. And where it all comes down to communication and its own way but it's just fascinating to see how you can manipulate your own mind. You know, again, I don't know how to say this in a way if you don't read it, you won't understand that this is neurocognitive science-based. And it is to explain it in one or two sentences like, Okay, so what was she smoking before she came on the show? And actually, where did she get it because it must be some pretty good stuff if she's buying into this nonsense. But check it out. Maxwell Maltz, "Psycho Cybernetics" is the book. Skipper: Okay. Laura: And it is pretty mind-opening. Skipper: Okay. So, Laura, we've talked about a few things already, we've talked about your book, your TEDx talk, and we'll link to those. You mentioned a course that you just started, where are other places that people can find out more about you? Laura: The simplest place, of course, is my website, which is vocalimpactproductions.com. Tune into the podcast, which like the book, is called Speaking to Influence. And you can either go to the website for that, which is speakingtoinfluence.com, where there are links to all the different platforms, if you'd like iTunes, Spotify, whatever else, links are there along with a link to my book. The podcast is fun because each week I interview a business leader, or I should say a leader from a business for-profit or nonprofit organization, ranging from local nonprofits like women against abuse up through executives at Comcast and the like to strictly discuss the role of communication as an essential leadership skill. Skipper: Hmm. Laura: So it's not about the business per se, not about the industry, not even talking about them. But about the communication piece, you can go to my LinkedIn page is always easy -- business and/or personal. That's my main connection as far as my social media preference, although I am on other platforms as well. From Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and that kind of stuff. Otherwise, the course you can take a peek at it at virtualinfluence.today -- not .com. It's virtualinfluence.today. Skipper: Okay. Well, thank you, Laura, so much for making time today. I enjoyed our conversation. And I learned so much and I hope that my listeners also, likewise. Laura: Aw, thank you for the opportunity Skipper. It's been a lot of fun. And anybody who wants to ask more questions -- or ideas, etc. -- feel free to come in and reach out on social media or come to the website where you can get in touch with me. Skipper: Awesome. And thank you for listening to How This Works. This episode was edited and mastered by Troy Lococo. Please subscribe and leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. This is the first season of our show and it would mean so much if you could tell just one other person about it and why they should listen. You can find How This Works online at howthisworks.show -- three words no dashes. Again, that's howthisworks.show. We're also active in the places where social media does its thing. I hope that you learn something from my conversation with Laura. For sure, I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Laura: So let's see. How's my sound with you? It looks like the amplitude is okay. How's my tone? Do I need to adjust gain or anything? Skipper: No. I think that I think if it sounds good in your headphones, I think it's -- it looks good from what I can tell.