[Intro music] Skipper Chong Warson: Hello, welcome to How This Works. I'm Skipper Chong Warson, I'm a design director in San Francisco, and this is a show where I invite people on to have a conversation with me about a topic that they know incredibly well. Today, I'm lucky to have with me, Jackie Velasquez Ross, who's going to talk to us about being a recruiter, something that she knows an awful lot about. Thanks for being here, Jackie. Jackie Velasquez-Ross: Thanks for having -- Skipper: (Laughing) I don't know what just happened -- Jackie: (Laughing) And I'm okay with you including that. This is so -- that is so funny. I have done so many podcasts and talks recently, and I just like, couldn't get three words out -- Skipper: Of course, out of the gate -- Jackie: So freaking funny. This is my life. Skipper: I think it's everyone's life. But I also don't think we could have planned it any better if we tried so let's just roll. Jackie: Okay. Skipper: So I want to find out more about you, Jackie. Who are you? Where are you from? Tell us more. Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so happy to be here today. Yeah, so I also live in the San Francisco Bay Area, specifically Oakland with my family. I'm a mom of two year old twins. So if you hear them in the background, that's what's going on. Skipper: Yeah, ditto. You might hear my daughter running around upstairs. I mean, I think that's life right now. Right? Jackie: It is life. It's everyone's life right now. If it's not kids, it's dogs, it's cats. Or a delivery person. I'm from Texas, originally, and I moved here to start my career. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: And I was a writer. And I still, you know, I can still say I am a writer, but I don't actively write for a profession. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: I wanted to work in advertising so I moved to San Francisco, which is a big advertising city. And I started my career as a receptionist and recruiting coordinator. And I ended up working for a director of creative talent. And I loved it. And I loved the job that they had. And I thought it was really cool and really exciting. And I needed to make more money. So I decided I wanted to get into recruiting, while still using my skills of storytelling and writing and meeting people and understanding who they are and where they want to go and helping them in that journey. And so that's how I started my career in recruiting. And here we are almost 10 years later. And I currently work for InVision, and I lead all of product design and product management. And, you know, I do a lot of leadership recruiting for the company. It's a lot of fun. We're fully remote and distributed, which has been interesting, especially given everyone else's shift to being remote. So yeah, so I'm super excited to be here with you today and share a little bit about what I know. Skipper: Well, Jackie, thanks for being here. And I appreciate you talking through your background because I think that really sets the stage for the rest of our conversation. What's something about you that people wouldn't necessarily guess? Something you're comfortable sharing? Jackie: Well, to any person off the street, I'm a mom. A lot of people don't know that. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: My partner and I actually purposely don't share our children on social media. Skipper: Yeah, I can understand that. Jackie: Yeah, it's been an interesting choice. It's actually been really nice, though. There's an odd pressure around sharing. Skipper: Oh, for sure, yeah. Jackie: Sharing a lot or over sharing. So yeah, but I'm a mom. And that's a huge part of my current identity that I never realized would make such an impact on my life. But it's an amazing thing. And it's hard. It's probably one of the hardest things that I've ever done. But it's incredible. And my kids are so funny, and they're this mix up of the both of us. And I even see -- I just see so much and it's just amazing. It's quite hilarious. And it's a huge learning experience for us. So yeah, that's something that people don't know about me. Skipper: I would say plus one -- absolutely. Plus one to what you said about being a parent. As a parent myself, not of twins, I feel like I learn something new every day. Can I ask, are your twins girl-girl, boy-boy, or girl-boy? Jackie: They're boy-boy. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: And I've never been into gender stereotypes at all and I'm still not. I was raised to believe that I could do anything I wanted to do, no matter what. Skipper: That's awesome. Jackie: I just had to put my mind to it and I could do it so I'd never had any -- my parents didn't put gender specifications or what I could or couldn’t do. But these are -- Skipper: Like expectations? Jackie: Yeah, expectations. But these are little boys. They jump off of things, climb off of things, they are wild. They're very spirited children. And they're also very different -- Skipper: Even from each other? Jackie: Yeah, they're very, very different from each other. They look different. They act different. They have different personalities, they like different things. They already have preferences. Skipper: Oh, wow. Already? Jackie: It's pretty amazing. And to be very honest with you, becoming a parent and becoming a mother has allowed me to be more empathetic in my recruiting process. And in my relationships with candidates. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: It's actually opened up a whole other window or door to an opportunity to get to know people and to also think about candidate and talent experience from that point of view. So it's been really, really awesome to consider and think about these things from a parent's POV. Skipper: That's wonderful to hear. You know, I find that with life changes, like moving or new job are becoming apparent, things often become clear in a way that they weren't before. Jackie: Mm hmm. Skipper: And, you know, while there are factors that might make the view more opaque, like being distracted or exhausted, or whatever, it means that there needs to be a greater intentionality or focus on the thing at hand. Jackie: Yep. I totally agree with you. And I also tried to be, I love what I do. So when I'm here, and I'm doing this, this is what I'm doing. And then when I'm with the kids, that's what I'm doing, and I try to create boundaries, so that I can give as much as I can to the thing that I'm working on and focus on the thing that I'm working on. So while it's okay, the boys come up, and they want to join a meeting. But it's like, Okay, cool, say hi, and then you have to go, because I'm being professional Jackie. And then I'll be mom later. So that's been a really interesting thing to try and figure out for myself. Skipper: Yeah, the separation. Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: You and I could totally talk about parenting and how that enhances our work world but I think that's for another episode. Jackie: Oh, totally. Skipper: I want to get back to our topic at hand. Another subject that you know, a lot about -- recruiting. You gave a little bit of your background in the introduction. Can you go into some of the details of how you got started in recruiting? Maybe unpack it a little bit more for us? Jackie: Sure, yeah. So I was working in this really well known ad agency called Goodby Silverstein & Partners. The founders of that agency created the "Got Milk?" campaign. Skipper: I remember that. Jackie: And so many other classic ads. And so I'm sitting in this beautiful office. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Like super young, like trying to figure out, you know, how to make connections with people. Try to figure out what I want to do with my life. And I'm receptionist at the front desk/recruiting coordinator for everything non-creative. Skipper: Okay. And this is in Texas? Jackie: This is in San Francisco. Skipper: Oh, I see. San Francisco. Jackie: Yeah, this is San Francisco and so I'm at a new place. And I'd spent a lot of time here before. Actually, I have family here in the Bay. And I'd come back and forth my whole life. And so I finally moved full time. I'm starting this career and, again, like I mentioned, I wanted to be a writer. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: But I find this joy and love of talking to people and getting to know them and scheduling these interviews. And that can kind of sound boring but it was awesome. It was amazing. I got to know these people, and I got to usher them in when they came into the office, and I would make sure they knew where they were going and meeting with the right people. And then I got this opportunity to assist this director of creative talent. And so then I was working on everything creative. Skipper: Oh, okay. Jackie: All of these people were creative and it was amazing. And I remember there was a couple of times where an interviewer couldn't make it. So then I took the candidate and I would like show them around the office and I'd take them to lunch and do all these things. And I loved that so much. I think it was honestly the social aspect of it. I'm a people person, right? Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And I was like, This is cool. You can get paid to talk to people who are really cool. Like, this is amazing. Sign me up. And also my boss at the time had a nice car and wore cool clothes and I thought, You know what, I'm missing out. Okay, I am missing out. This is what I need to be doing. Skipper: Yeah, I can see that. Jackie: So I do that job for a while and then I got an opportunity to become a recruiter/recruiting coordinator at a another design studio. So that's kind of when I moved into tech. And so I ended up being a recruiter at this lovely little boutique studio called Level Studios. And that's where things kind of took off. And I really got entrenched in design and tech and product. And then I also was, you know, living in San Francisco and like, networking and meeting with people. And I met all these startup founders. And so I started doing work on the side where I was working with small scale businesses, and like early stage startups on their businesses. And so hiring and thinking about, you know, what their talent pipeline looks like, what the future of the company looks like, and helping them hire. So I was very busy for a period of time doing that. And then I got even more into that world when I went to go work for Facebook and Instagram. And so I focused on product design leadership. Skipper: Okay, product design leadership. Jackie: And that was amazing. And fun and hard. And it was a great time. And then I got an opportunity to come to InVision and here I am leading product design, product management, and leadership plus hires. And so yeah, there's a lot that goes into it. It's not just talking to people, which I figured out. There's a lot you can do to make it happen in a process type of way. Or you can kind of think of recruiting as an art and a science. And so I'm super happy to talk through that today. Skipper: An art and science, I can totally see that. So I'd love to get into what you just talked about. You mentioned your time at Facebook and Instagram, and you described it as amazing, fun, and hard. Jackie: Mm hmm. Skipper: Can you tell me more about what made it hard? Or maybe was there a goal that you were working to achieve there? Jackie: Yeah, so every place is gonna be different. But specifically when I was there, I mean, you're working at such a large scale. Mm hmm. And so much pressure. Skipper: Yeah, fast. Jackie: And literally, the people who I was hiring, are shaping and changing our reality. Skipper: Yeah. So high stakes, for sure. Jackie: Yeah, high stakes. Skipper: And this gets into time management and clearing a safe space, not just to do work but to do the right kind of work. Jackie: Yeah, it was a fascinating time. I mean, I hired someone who's currently working on the monetization of Instagram. Skipper: That's happening. Jackie: Which we're now seeing roll out. And it's really cool to see. Skipper: I imagine. Jackie: So I worked specifically on Facebook and Instagram. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: And I worked on Messenger. So looking at how to better that experience. And actually just saw they rolled out cross platform communication for both Facebook and Instagram. And so I was like working with those people who are hiring the people who were building and those -- Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: -- those functions and those features on these applications that you and I and the billions of people around the world who use these products. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: Um, so yeah, it was -- Skipper: High impact. Jackie: High impact, high visibility, high stakes. And so that was hard. And there was a lot of pressure. And I loved it, it was amazing. I'd worked on some really cool stuff before. But this was, I think, the most visible opportunity that I got to work in on those. And in this instance -- Skipper: Yeah, okay. Jackie: And like the goals were to get the right person in the seat. So I did have goals, like you should make five hires this half (year) or 10 hires this half, but it was really about finding the right person and bringing them into process, making sure that they have all the information that they need, making sure that the business and my business partners inside of the business had all the information that they needed about the candidate so that they could interview them successfully preparing the candidate for a conversation. Or preparing them to present work. And then also there was a portion of it where when we got to that point in time, but negotiations, right, which is also a very interesting thing. And that could also be a whole conversation that we can have. I feel like that's a thing that people want to know about these days. But yeah, so there was a lot of work going into hiring and still is even in my role today. Skipper: Sure. I'm hearing you talk about a general framework in being a recruiter, finding the right person, making sure they're ready and equipped making sure that your client or hiring manager is likewise equipped and ready and negotiation, I want to get into that later. But what's the principle that you follow in the work that you do as a recruiter? Jackie: Yeah, I think it's do right by the candidate and do right by the business. Skipper: That makes sense. Jackie: Because it's really about -- it's honestly like matchmaking. And it's understanding what the candidate needs and wants, and what their strengths are, and really what their motivations are. Processing that understanding and then also having an intimate knowledge of what the business needs and saying, Is that a good fit? Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Also understanding the business and whoever your partner is -- Skipper: Sure. Jackie: And knowing what they want and what they need, but then also understanding what they might not be able to articulate. Skipper: Hmm, that's key. Jackie: And bringing that to the table. And that's why I always employ storytelling, Skipper: Storytelling. Jackie: I mean, I didn't go to school to be a recruiter, but -- Skipper: Sure. Jackie: That background has allowed me to really dig deep with candidates, dig deep with my business partners. And then bring those two narratives together and tell a really beautiful story. And, you know, I always love -- I call candidates who you would never think of for a role -- wildcards. Skipper: Oh, sure. Yeah. Jackie: I love telling the story of wildcards and how they could be a good fit for the business. And then also explaining to the candidate, “Oh, my gosh, I have this role. I think this could be super interesting. This is like a little bit different than what you've been working on most recently.” But it can be a really great fit in explaining and selling it to them on why it could be a great fit for everybody. Because at the end of the day, as an employee, I also believe the interview process is for you to interview the company as well. And figuring out if this is a good fit for you, is this somewhere you want to spend a majority of your time Skipper: Right. Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: The fit has to be on both sides, right, the job seeker side as well as the hiring side, I love that you call them your business partners. If it doesn't work on your business partner side, then it doesn't matter what a potential hire looks like on paper, or what kind of work they've done in the past? Or if they have a low price tag. If it's not a fit on both sides, it's not a fit at all. Jackie: Totally. Yeah, it is so important. And I often times, like when things don't work out with candidates, one of the things that I often like to explain to people is, it's okay if this doesn't work out. Because it means it's not the best fit, and you want to find the right fit. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: The best fit for you, and also the best fit for the company. Because if that's not if you're not in line, then it's just not going to work -- Skipper: It can't. Jackie: And maybe you only end up working in that role for six months or a year before things break down. So you want to find the best fit for you. And then also for the company. Skipper: 100%. Jackie, I couldn't agree more. In your introduction, you talked about how you used to be a writer. But I think that that's an understatement on your part. Because you emphasize storytelling as such an important part of this paradigm, how you tell a story to a job seeker, how you craft that story to your business partners, I would say that you're still a writer in a way. Even if you're not putting pen to paper, maybe you're not crafting the great American novel but you're working and iterating on story. Jackie: Yeah, I would argue you're right. I agree with you. It's just different. It's a different way of using words. It's strategic. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: A lot of what I do, too, is meeting just like this, and talking with people. So use of tone, it's the use of nuance, and really speaking to what people's wants and needs are and making people feel like they can, a lot of my job is about trusting me so that they know that I have their best interests at heart. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: I can find the best match and the best fit on both sides. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: So we're talking today? It's August 2020. August. No, let's not try that again. It's actually October 2020. That should tell you something there. It's October 2020 so Jackie, I'm wondering how your job is different than it was a year ago? We're working remotely. There's a wide chasm of political polarization all around the world and in the United States. Racial and class tensions, they feel sky high right now. How is your job changed? Jackie: Yeah, that's a good question. It looks very different, especially for us in the United States, I recruit globally, but particularly in the United States, and I would even say Canada, because they watch a lot of what's going on here. And their markets and their industries shift with our changes. And -- Skipper: So close geographically. Jackie: But it's very different. So the market is hot, so hot, I would say in terms of candidates, like if you're a candidate, and you're looking for a job, and you're really good at what you do, and you're actively on the market, you're gonna get an offer. Quickly. Skipper: Hmm. Jackie: So for me, I have to move as quickly as I can, which can sometimes be hard. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Depending on where the business is, and how quickly they want to move. So for me, I've had candidates who I've talked to on a Monday, and then on Wednesday, they have an offer. Skipper: Wow. Jackie: And I, that's hard to that's really hard to operate. I'm getting really specific questions about some of the things that you just mentioned, like, how does your company view the Black Lives Matter movement. I'm a woman of color, I'm a black woman, or I present as a black woman, people ask me, So, what's really going on? They're like, Can you explain more? And I'm honestly happy to answer those questions. Because I think it's important. And if, especially if these things are important to you, you want to know what you're getting yourself into. Skipper: Agreed. Jackie: Um, but it's just different. You know, it's a different climate, it's a different time, people are a lot more skeptical to move on from their jobs if they are happily employed -- Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And you're making like a fair amount of money, or you're comfortable, right? Like, why would you want to leave your job? Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Why would I go and do something new in the middle of an election season and the middle of unrest and uncertainty, why would I want to go get a new job? So a lot of -- Skipper: Change adds up. Jackie: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: It's really -- it's fascinating. So again, it's a lot of storytelling, it's a lot of understanding of motivations, needs passions, wants, I mean, I'm sending flowers to people. Skipper: That's awesome. Jackie: I send someone a plant. Skipper: Aw. Jackie: I've done all you know, I've done all kinds of stuff, you know, to, like, make -- Skipper: That stuff matters. Jackie: It's genuine and it's real. But it's a little bit high touch. It's a lot more high touch than normal. Skipper: That makes sense, especially with so much change and stress right now. So, if you're someone who's looking for new work, whether you're out of a job and you want one, or it's time to move on from your current job, what would you recommend to someone who wants to stand out in this market? Jackie: Yeah, I love it when people send me notes directly. Skipper: Notes? Jackie: I think that's great. So apply for a role. And then find someone or if you don't know someone at a company, do some research, find out who the hiring manager could potentially be. Find out who the recruiter could potentially be and send them an email. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Hey, I saw this role. It's super interesting. This is what I've been doing most recently, I would love to have a conversation with you about, you know, what you're looking for in a candidate and see if this could be a good fit, and apply for the role. Skipper: Hmm. Jackie: And follow up. Like I don't mind, I have 100 different things that I've got going on at work and outside of work. So if you send a note and I don't respond, it's okay. You can follow up. I know you, Skipper. You do an amazing job of following up. I love it. It's great. Skipper: Well, thank you. I think it's important. Yeah. Jackie: You know, when we email and if I don't get back to you, you send me a note, and I love that. That’s so good because we've all got so much going on. Skipper: So much. Jackie: There's so much happening and so it's so important, like follow up don't feel weird about it. Follow up. I mean, don't send like 10 emails in a row without someone responding back to you. Because then we’re getting into weird territory there. But um -- Skipper: Use common sense. Jackie: Yeah, like follow up twice. Like why not? I mean, when I've reached out to candidates, I send follow up emails, I send about two emails and then after they don't respond, then they don't respond -- Skipper: Right. Jackie: That's fine with me, but I followed up. So follow up, send a personal email. I would also say negotiate. You know, there's so many different things that you can negotiate that people don't realize you can negotiate. Skipper: Sure, like what? Jackie: I mean, you can negotiate your start date, you can negotiate how many days a week you work. You can negotiate your hours. I mean, obviously, you should always be negotiating your pay. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Bonus, equity. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: Um, direct reports. Your job responsibilities and duties. Skipper: Mm hmm. Jackie: There's so many things that depending on your industry, there are so many different things that you can do. Like, maybe you don't want to be a full time employee, maybe you want to be a contractor and run it through your own LLC. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: You know -- Skipper: There's some real financial benefits if you've structured your business in that way. Jackie: There are. There really, really are and as someone who owns their own business, like for my consulting and I definitely have run things through my LLC. And it's so much better as a benefit to me, especially taxes, you know? Skipper: Sure. Jackie: Yeah. I mean, there's so many things that you can do. And also, if you're in a job that you don't like, or you don’t have a job, because you've been laid off because of everything that's going on -- Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Look for something that you really want, and that you feel like you'll be content in for a while. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: And even if -- Skipper: And not just the next thing, right? Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: The next vine to grab onto? Jackie: Yeah, don't settle. And if you have to, because of like financial reasons, I would encourage you to think about being a contractor, because then you can continue to look for what is the best fit for you. And bow when you need to. And don't feel bad about it. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Don't feel bad about it. Because it's not personal. Skipper: It's not personal at all. Jackie, I love that we've already gotten into this notion of negotiating and asking for those things that you need and that you want. We were referencing it in terms of accepting a new job but the reality is that you can also negotiate within your existing job. Jackie: Oh, yeah. Skipper: So if there are things that are askew in your current role, or certain features have gone adrift? How do you negotiate in a job that you already have? How do you start that conversation? Jackie: Yeah, if you have proper performance cycles, always make sure number one, make sure you're on your P's and Q's, right? So things that you should be doing, make sure you're doing them and you're doing them well -- Skipper: What does a proper performance cycle mean? What do you mean by that? Jackie: Yeah, so depends on the company, and how things are structured. But some companies have performance reviews twice a year, some of them have them four times a year, some of them might only have them once a year. Skipper: Okay. Sure. Jackie: So leading up to your performance cycle, depending on when that is -- if you have one every quarter, I would say, maybe what you could do, if you have quarterly performance reviews is, maybe there's one coming up in like a week or two. And so go through that performance review with your manager. And you get your feedback, these are the things that you're doing great. Here are some areas of improvement, and you say, thank you so much. Got it. I'll be working on these things. I'll continue to do these things. But I have noticed that, XYZ has been happening, or I've taken on more responsibility here. So I would like to continue to do that. But I'd like to see an increase in my pay. Because I'm putting an X amount of effort. And I think that I should be compensated for that. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: So ask for the money, and then say, and we can review this at my next performance review or compensation review time. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: You have to let your manager know exactly what you want. Because if you don't, you may not get it. Most likely, you won't get it. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And there's a saying in the South and I'm sure many other places, Closed mouths don't get fed. Skipper: Yeah. Okay. Jackie: So you have to ask for what you want. And it can be -- as a woman, for me, and as a woman of color -- it's been really hard. Because I've been trained to keep my head down. Don't ask for too much. You're lucky to be here. And what I realized is that you can't do that because we're never going to get ahead. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: If we don't ask -- and I'm really good at what I do, I know that, and other people tell me that -- and so I'm gonna ask. And I coached so many people on this like men, women, people of color, folks from the LGBTQ community. We have to ask, if you don't ask, it's not gonna happen. Skipper: Agreed. Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: That phrase, closed mouths don't get fed. That's great. And it absolutely makes sense. The best advocate for you is you because in your role, in your industry, let's say you're getting underpaid. I've never experienced a company coming to an employee and saying, I think we're underpaying you. Here's a 20% bump because that's what people at your level make. But if you come in, you have the research in hand. You know what other people who work at your level with your experience, this is what I need, or I want in my life, inform yourself, come in with evidence. And like you said, mind your Q's and P's, do your job, do it well. And when you're on the good foot, come in and ask for the things that you want and the things that you need. Because otherwise, you'll never get it. Jackie: Yes, 100%. And that is exactly the way that you should do it. And then if that isn't honored, take stock of what that means to you how that feels. And if you need to go get a new job, go get a new job. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And then ask for what you want. Up front. Skipper: Definitely. Jackie: So I tell people to ask for -- if you're talking about money, or equity or bonuses, ask for -- something that makes you laugh. Skipper: Hmm. Like, ask for too much? Jackie: You know, honestly, all they're gonna say is no, that's what I always tell people. If someone -- if an intern tells me they want to make a million dollars, I'm going to be like, That’s funny, no. Skipper: Yeah, no, that doesn't make sense. Jackie: But I'm not going to not give them the job, right? Skipper: Right? Yeah, that's not a reason to say no. Jackie: And especially if it's said in a funny way, but in this specific instance of an intern, but add some tax onto what you're asking for, and just see, because all they can do is say no, and say we can't do that that's out of band. Or that's not within scope for this role. But what we can do is XYZ. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: If you are leaving a job, and you have equity or a bonus, you're about to get it within a quarter or a half of a year, tell the recruiter, whoever you're negotiating with about that and say, Hey, I'm leaving XYZ amount on the table if I leave today. Is there anyway you can make up for that? How can you make up the delta? Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And see what they can do? It's always okay. And even if you have to go back two or three times, even if they tell you this is the max. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Ask. Skipper: Right. Jackie: Hmm. Skipper: It's hard to sit in that tension. When you've asked for something, right? You want to justify it, you want to qualify it, you want to make an excuse. Maybe there's shame or guilt, they're asking for more money or benefits or whatever. Jackie: Absolutely. Skipper: And depending on who you are, whether you're a woman who's been historically and currently underpaid in comparison to a man, or you're a person of color, it brings up all sorts of emotions and feelings depends on the person. And many people just grin and bear it and move on. I don't deserve that, end of story. Jackie: I know. Yeah, I've had to fight that so much in my career. And it's been interesting to get further further along in my career, and also doing what I do. Skipper: Hmm. Jackie: And employ my own tactics. But for me, I mean, for me at this point, it's fun. But I know it's not fun for everybody, it's almost weird. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: But like, it’s fun. It's interesting. And I love to talk to other recruiters too. Because it's always funny to hear other people who feel a certain way talk about things the way they do things. I always tell people just ask, just ask for a little more. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And they can always say no, and you just make your decision on what you're going to do. Skipper: Absolutely. Put it out there. I’d love to ask you one last question around recruiting. Jackie: Sure. Skipper: Jackie, you work in the design and technology space. First, for Goodby Silverstein and then Facebook, Instagram. And now InVision, what does the future look like from your point of view, either from the job seeker side of the table, or the employer side, your business partners? What's something that you're watching out for in the future? Something you're really paying attention to? Jackie: Yeah, I think the future of work is remote working. Skipper: Mm hmm. Jackie: I believe that all industries will become more design forward and centric. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: In terms of having digital experiences, and having well crafted digital experiences, which you and I both know has not always been the case? Skipper: No, not at all. And not currently. Jackie: So I truly do believe we're going to see more companies and industries become design friendly, and have digital experiences that are easy for everyone to use. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: And then that means that there are going to be design roles in industries that are 200-300 years old. Skipper: Right. Jackie: So I have a friend who works in the railroad business -- Skipper: Railroad. Jackie: One of the oldest industries in the United States. And I am so excited for them to go through a digital transformation because they really need it. Skipper: Absolutely. I mean, it's so analog. I mean, they're like 50 years behind or like 1950s, whatever. Jackie: And it’s really interesting. Jackie: I mean, we are already seeing the banking industry having gone through a major digital transformation. And we're gonna continue to see that happen. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Especially with FinTech companies disrupting the space, traditional banks have to continue to innovate. Skipper: They have to. Jackie: And then for people in our industry in terms of tech and software, those types of roles are going to open up in those industries. So I think it's important for people to keep an eye on that. And if you have a love for something, or a passion for something, or you're from middle America, Ohio, or Texas, or wherever it might be that has an industry that's not a tech hub, you might see in the next 5-10 years that will change? Skipper: Wow. Jackie: I think that's really exciting. And then specifically, though, and this is something that I am actually very interested in watching, and I've been talking with other design professionals and recruiters, specifically, as I'm seeing this shift of design leaders move into product roles. Skipper: Oh, so from product design into product management, yeah? Jackie: Product management. And we're seeing this shift of design leaders moving into product leadership roles. And so we're kind of seeing a mix of product and design leadership. And it's kind of a product experience. Skipper: Experience, okay. Jackie: Kind of hybrid, it's very fascinating. I'm seeing it, I'm seeing a lot of interest from design leaders to move into those type of chief product/experience roles. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And I think that's something that's really important for designers and design leaders to keep an eye out and to, you know, if you get an opportunity to move into some kind of hybrid role like that, you should take it, because I do believe that's the future. Skipper: Interesting. Jackie: Mm hmm. Skipper: I'd like to rewind to something you said about remote work being the new normal. Jackie, do you think that in the future after COVID-19, do you think that companies who are engaging in remote work, this 100% remote work, they'll lose their appetite? Once it's quote unquote, safe to come back into an office environment? Jackie: Yeah, I think it's gonna be a combination. I think it's there might even be like a slow trickle, okay, where some people might try to have folks come back into the office and then realize it's just silly and we shouldn't be paying for all this space for five people to be in an office at one time. Skipper: It is expensive, for sure. Jackie: It is. And if you think about it, I've talked to folks, and I said, Well, you know, you can come into the office and meet with business partners live. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: To me, I think of it like, cool. So if I plan to be in the office, like Monday, Wednesday, I'm supposed to meet with my business partners. What happens if they decide to change your schedule? And there's so much logistics that go into -- Skipper: Rubber banding back and forth? Jackie: Yeah, I don't think it's gonna happen, honestly. I think there's going to be more want and need for socialization. So maybe there might be specific work days, or you come together live to do an activity, or whether it be work or just social because I know people are craving that right. I think that will happen. But I really do think that we're going to move into this time and place of fully remote and distributed teams. Skipper: Interesting. Jackie: And people are going to do it differently. Like InVision has been doing it for 9-10 years now. And I think we've -- Skipper: That long? Jackie: We've got a pretty good handle on it. We all kind of work on set business hours, but I know there are other fully remote distributed companies where they don't and they work kind of like -- Skipper: Asynchronously. Jackie: Yeah, asynchronous and, you know, maybe that works. I'm not sure. So yeah, I think we're gonna see really interesting innovations in this space. Skipper: Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. You know, I hope so, there's been a lot of tumult in so many avenues of our life right now. And I would love, love to see some positive change come out of the situation. I mean, the idea of working in your home might be more comfortable for some people. It takes a portion of the commuter traffic off the roads. And that's great. And then, more than that, the long tail of how we incentivize and grow responsibly the idea of working in our homes, if businesses are no longer providing these in-person spaces, and people are having to make choices for their home around, I need a room with a door I can close so I can focus and do the work I need to get done. How does the cost of doing business or doing work? How is that transferred? How is it carried? It'll be interesting to see how all this plays out. I don't have any of these answers. Jackie: Absolutely. I mean, that's something that I we had to look at for ourselves like my partner and I now have our own offices, but we had to move to a bigger home. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Yeah. And that could mean like you stay in your same city or, or that means you move somewhere else or like a tax credit for that? Or are, you know, employers paying people a little extra? Are you pouring more into your employees with trainings or right now, you know, professional development? There are so many interesting things that I could see us do. Yeah and we're just gonna have to wait and see. Time will tell. Skipper: Yeah, time will tell. So, Jackie, is there anything in the realm of recruiting that we haven't covered? Something that you want to emphasize? Or talk about? Jackie: Yeah, sure. I can give some advice. Skipper: Oh, yeah. Advice would be great. Jackie: Yeah. Okay. So a couple of nuggets if you're a job seeker, do your research. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: As much as you can go on the company's website, take a look at their products. Take a look at who works at the company, go on LinkedIn. See who works there. See what -- Skipper: Research. Jackie: Do a Google search and see what the latest news has been about the company. When you apply to a job, make sure you send the right cover letter, you don't know how many times I see people sending in the wrong cover letter. Skipper: Really? Jackie: They do. Oh, it's really funny. I mean, I've done it. Skipper: Oh I've done it, too. Jackie: Don't do that. Skipper: No. Jackie: Don't do that. Skipper: Not good. Jackie: You know, make sure you're buttoned up. Skipper: Sure. Jackie: Um, if you're a designer and you have a portfolio -- okay, number one, always have a portfolio. If you're a designer, if you don't have a portfolio as a designer, that's another conversation. Skipper: Agreed. Jackie: If you have portfolio, put it on your resume. Skipper: Yeah. Right. Jackie: And if you have a password -- Skipper: I already know. Jackie: Make sure your whole site isn't password protected. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Right. Skipper: See something. Jackie: I need to click in and see anything? Skipper: Sure. Jackie: I'm sorry. I can't see. Yeah, it doesn't help you with your work. I can't see what's going on. How am I? How am I supposed to know anything? Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: So in your cover letter, say, reach out to me for my password, or just put the freaking password in your cover letter? Or your resume? Like it's really not that serious. Skipper: Yeah, absolutely. Jackie: I'm just I feel like I'm saying very basic things. It happens a lot. I don't expect design leaders to have resumes, to be honest. But if you're a design leader, have a one page website. You don't have to have your work up, but some contact information, you know. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: Or just a way to contact you. Or if you're applying for a role, maybe a little bit about you. I would also say for designers specifically, design your resume. Skipper: And your work is a reflection of who you are, and what you stand for. Jackie: Yes. Skipper: If you're using an off the shelf template, that tells a story about you. Is that the right story? Jackie: Exactly. And you would be surprised. I mean, I know you know, but I see this all the time. And I'm like, wow. Skipper: Right. Jackie: So no, yeah, pass. And I will tell you so many design recruiter friends of mine agree. So please, yeah, design your resume. Um -- Skipper: Four out of five dentists agree. Jackie: Brush your teeth and floss. Skipper: That's right. Jackie: So those are just like specific for design and design leadership. I would also say in general, do your research before you go into interviews, again, on the company, but also just the industry in terms of pay. I often have people want to skirt around compensation, which I understand because they don't feel ready to have a conversation but do some research like -- Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: There's plenty of tools in front of you on the internet. Ask, ask your past colleagues, you know, what is comparable for the market? Skipper: Okay. Jackie: How much should I be asking? Do some research on that. So you can competently come to the table and, you know, tell them what you want, and what you deserve. Skipper: Agreed. Jackie: And just -- I would say just put your best foot forward. Don't be too nervous when you interview. It's always really interesting to hear people be nervous. I know why people are nervous when they interview but the way I think about it is you're just telling someone about yourself and that's the easiest thing you could do because you know yourself. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: The most and the best. Skipper: Agreed. Jackie: You know, take a breath, drink a sip of water. And it's okay, just be you, be your authentic self. Skipper: I think those are great pieces of advice. And as someone who's in the midst of looking for my next work, I took notes while you were talking. I know that I will take these to heart myself. Jackie: Awesome. And I also I would say, Try and keep a good relationship with a recruiter. Because if it doesn't work out for that role and might work out in the future, and maybe you can leverage them as a source of of information or help. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: That's something I've done in my past that I offer to candidates. And it's a really nice thing to have. Skipper: Plus one, absolutely plus one. Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: These are all conversations between two or more humans, right? There's a human being on the other side of that email of that phone call. And I think especially during this time, when we might be more isolated than we're used to, we talked a little bit about this about before we started recording, we talked about the treasure that is one on one human interactions that we can have right now. So that recruiter, they are a full human being, they might be a brother, a mother, a sister, father, daughter, son, whoever they are in the world, be kind, I think, be kind. Jackie: Yeah, be kind. That's so important. Skipper: So I'd like to jump into our closing questions. Because there's so much more that we could explore here but I feel like this is a good stopping point. And just leaves us room for next time. Jackie: Mm hmm. Skipper: So Jackie, what's something -- and taking the zoom out view -- something that you've learned in your life or in your work? Maybe it's something you wish you learned, something you learned earlier? Jackie: Yeah. Skipper: I love that deep breath. That kind of exhale says so much. I can't wait. Jackie: Deep breathing. I think I've learned that -- and I think it's important -- I like what I do. And who I'm working with. And that I don't take myself too seriously. Skipper: Hmm. Jackie: And I continue to enjoy what I do from a day to day perspective. But at the same time, it's just business. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And I don't take it personally. Because I found early in my career that I put a lot of my self worth and my identity and my job. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: And when things happen that were disappointing, I took it very personally. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: And I feel like for a lot of us that our identity is wrapped up in our day to day, which I understand why. Skipper: Yeah. Jackie: But it's so important to know that you are so much more than your job. And you bring so much to the table. And it's important to recognize that and know that I do and to make sure that you remember that. Skipper: Yeah. That is a fan-tas-tic piece of advice. Thank you, Jackie. Where can people go if they want to find out more about you? Are you online? Do you have anything coming up that we should watch for? Jackie: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: My LinkedIn -- linkedin.com backslash i-n backslash jacquelinevross (linkedin.com/in/jacquelinevross/). It's funny that I know that. Skipper: You know that. Jackie: I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. But I'm honestly very boring these days. And if I post anything, it's the food that my kids spilled on the floor. And I don't know why I buy it. Because they don't eat it anyway. I just like retweet people and like to laugh at things. Skipper: You need to laugh. Jackie: I actually am on another podcast in the Netherlands that is getting posted soon about designing your work-life balance. Skipper: Okay. Jackie: Not really sure if that's even a thing, but designing your life. And then I've got a couple other things coming out that I'll be posting on my LinkedIn, so you can find it there. Skipper: Great. We'll post that in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Jackie, for making time and space to have this conversation with me and for keeping your life at bay. I know we've got a little over. But thank you. Jackie: Of course. Thanks for having me. Skipper: And thanks for listening to How This Works You can find us on your favorite podcast app. Please leave us a review and subscribe while you're there. You can also find us at how this works dot show -- all one word, no dashes how this works dot show. And if you could tell one other person about the show and why they should listen to it. That would be so helpful. Since we're just starting. You can also find how this works in the places where social media happens. Thank you for making the time to listen today. I hope that you learned a lot from my conversation with Jackie. I know I did. And we'll talk again soon. [Outro music] Skipper: Okay and I just saw your voice print pop up so -- So, awesome. Jackie: Awesome. Skipper: 21 minutes later... Jackie: We did it. Skipper: We did it. Technology did not win. So -- Jackie: We won. So funny. Skipper: We won.