Sean Tibor: Hello and welcome to Teaching Python. This is episode 82, Helping Kids Navigate the Online World with Richard Culatta. My name is Sean Tibor. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I'm a coder who teaches and my name is Kelly Schuster-Paredes, and I'm a teacher that codes. Sean Tibor: So as was stated upfront in the title, we are here with Richard Colada, the President of the International Society. Even better. Richard Culatta: The you upgraded me. It's good. Sean Tibor: Yes. Ceo of the International Society of Technology Educators. And we are thrilled to have you here. Richard Kelly has been reading your book. I've been reading your book, and we've been just so excited to have you on the show to talk about kids in the online world. Richard Culatta: Well, you've doubled my readership, so thank you for that. But Kelly, glad to be here. This is always a fun show, so I'm glad to be part of it. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Thank you. Sean Tibor: Thanks. So we're going to jump right in and we'll do a little bit longer bio with Richard to introduce you to him after we get to the winds of the week, which is where we always like to start. So it's something good that's happened inside or outside of the classroom, and we're going to make Richard go first because it's really fun to do that to our guests. So, Richard, go ahead. What's happened with you this week? Richard Culatta: Well, I mean, the obvious thing, I don't know if it's cheating to do this, but this is CSN Week, right? So the awesome this week is getting able to see really amazing things that teachers are doing in classrooms all over to teach coding and give that experience. So that's awesome. But I realize it's cheating a little bit because that's not mine specifically. So I'll give another one as well. So this just yesterday. In fact, we opened registration for our East Live event, which is the first time and it will be almost three years. By the time it happens that we will have it face to face and it will be in New Orleans. We've had our team working overnight, getting everything ready. And so we're really excited to be able to welcome everybody back in New Orleans in June. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Those are two great ones. One is the live. We didn't get to go to Iste because of COVID. We were going to present and then that got changed. So that was really sad. So I'm really excited that you guys are going back live. And then the second CS Ed week. I love CS EdWeek. I love watching a lot of my friends around the world, our friends around the world, coding and a lot of the things that they're doing, I know ISL Luxembourg give a shout out to them. They've been having a great CSL week, doing a lot of fun activities, and it's always nice to see. Sean Tibor: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. My Twitter feed is full of students making stuff and having those big breakthrough and even the little breakthrough. Aha, moments of like, wow, look at this great thing that I made and how cool it is. I think one of the things I saw this week was a student took a high school student that had made a working iron man helmet with a built in heads up display on. I'm assuming it took them longer than the week to pull that off, but it was pretty cool to see. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah, we're a little bit spoiled here because we get CSD week every single day of the year. But anyways, Sean, you want to go first and your win? Sean Tibor: So my win this week is one that has been a fail for a long time, but Google Colab is back. So I had written about this a few months ago. Google Colab changed a bunch of their settings around age based restrictions and broke Colab for us. So Colab is an online Python notebook that you can use to write code and collaborate. It's like a Google Doc, but with Python code and they broke it for us. We've had some students who could access it, some students who couldn't, and it looks like that's all been resolved. It's now turned back on for our school. If you don't have it yet, go talk to your Google administrator and they can turn it back on for you. But we're excited to have that capability back for us as teachers. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah, online editor can't wait. It's good to have to just share that code right away, and we don't have to copy and paste code and to check it. So can I cheat? I want to do sort of my it's been a continuous fail for the past three and a half years, and I feel like it resulted in a win today. So a continuous fail for me. The people at Adafruit always loved me. I always talked about them, but I've been failing miserably on the circuit playground and just really having a hard time getting used to it. I can do it. I can copy the code, I can get it going. But I've never been able to kind of teach a little bit of it. And today I spontaneously had the kids do a challenge, and I was just like, okay, and I had nothing prepared, which could have been an ultimate failure. But I gave them a challenge of lighting up some specific colors that I found, like Maroon and dark Cyan and turquoise. And I was like, okay, simple program, do a shake of this little microprocessor, and when you shake it, I want all the colors to light up and then shut off. And it was for candy, which was funny and not for points, because I told them the points don't matter, and we did it. And it was so great. It was such an epic win for me to have a successful 72 minutes class of the kids just constantly trying to get it and not worried about passing or failing and all the libraries work. It was just beautiful. Sean missed it. He walked out of class today. I didn't get to see my epic wind. It was good. Richard Culatta: I love that the incentive was candy. Honestly, if we just paused on that and said, what if we replaced grades with candy? Like, we might have just phenomenal growth in our education programs across the world? I just want to put that out there. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Thank you. We like to quote, what's his name? Sean Tibor: Drew Carey. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Drew Carey. Where the points don't matter. How much is it? How many points you want? 5000. 10,000. Sean Tibor: I have this dream that one quarter or one class. I'll just make all the points multiplied by 100,000. So this assignment is worth 400,000 points for you. And as long as they're all scaled the same way, it'll work out the right way in the end. But I just want to have that class to just show that the points themselves don't matter. It's the learning that matters. It's the accomplishment. And the most important thing I give you is not the point. It's the feedback. It's the advice on how to make your project a little bit better. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I kind of envision a Mario coin going Ding, Ding. Sorry. Richard Culatta: All right, Kelly. Sean Tibor: Any fails this week that you want to share? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: No, it's been the board. We're trying to get the boards. Sometimes if I can't get a board loaded, the circuit playground, I just throw it. I'm like this one doesn't work. And Sean's, like, I'll fix it, it doesn't work. Give me a new board that's already loaded. But, yeah, those are just that constant failure, trying to work under pressure with hardware. We even had servos going today, so it was a very hardware day, so I didn't have any sales as much. Sean Tibor: Well, Richard will give you a couple more minutes to come up with yours. And mine is relatively fast. I have a Windows computer that we use in the classroom for doing virtual reality. And somehow I broke the installation of windows on it and can't get it back. So I have it sitting over there waiting for me to reinstall windows and figure out what I did wrong. And I know it's one of those things that will just give me maybe another few minutes of time to get it started or maybe a few hours. But I'll get it eventually. Just right now, it's sitting over there kind of mocking me silently. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: We want that back. Sean Tibor: Yeah. All right, Richard, over to you. Richard Culatta: You know, there's so many things to choose from. What do I pick? I used to travel all the time. We'd go in and get to visit schools and partners that we were working with around the world. And then all of a sudden, it all went away. And it's been a while since I really traveled. Just this last little bit, I've started traveling again and going back to start to visit some of our teams. Anyway, I went through security check in, and I had, like, water bottles in my bag and belts that were going off and, like, shoes in the wrong places. And I was like. Sean Tibor: What have I become? Richard Culatta: I'm that guy that used to drive me crazy, like, I can't even get through security anymore. It's funny how quickly those muscles of how to get on a plane just go away when you don't have to do it for two years. So that was my fail. And I got to work on that a little bit. Sean Tibor: And it's so easy to be too hard on yourself, too. Richard Culatta: Right? Sean Tibor: You're like, I know I'm better than this, right? Richard Culatta: The guys, like, everybody says that I'm like, no, I'm really not the guy to just get your shoes off. Sean Tibor: Well, I mean, like, it's baseball. If you haven't swung a baseball bat in two years and you try to go to the batting cage and hit balls, you're going to miss, right? It's understandable. But it's also understandable that we all think that we're better travelers than we may be on a given day. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I haven't been on an airplane in two years, right? I'm guaranteed to be to the airport. Okay. I'm going to practice taking off shoes and belts. Sean Tibor: And I just see in Kelly with tape lines on the floor. This tape is the metal detector. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: We're going to go through that mapping out my playground. Oh, my goodness. Okay. So we get started on this. Sean Tibor: Let's do it. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Okay. Well, we're going to do a little bit of intro for you. I met you, and I'll do my air quotes. You probably don't remember me because there was, like, 100 people. But at the Macy conference, and I think 2020 because I went running up and I was like, you and Daniel Pink were, like, the highlight speakers. Elliot, Mecy was awesome, too, but it was such an amazing conference to go. I think I remember me coming. I was like, texting the whole time. I was like, this conference is amazing. There's hardly any teachers here. They're really smart people. And I was texting every 5 seconds, and I got to meet you with all the other 100 people that were there. I don't remember how many people, but there was a lot of people. Richard Culatta: Big group. Yeah. That was a fundamental. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. And I'm a big time follower of Iste, working in an international school that's kind of like our go to for standards for everything tech. And so Iste has been a big part of my life from, I don't know, long time ago. And you are just this innovative educational leader. You have so much experience. You worked in the White House, correct. And you've worked in a lot of adult settings. You've got tons of expertise in educational policy, teacher prep, educational technology innovation. And you're just a great leader in this whole plot for all of us out here in this tech world, trying to keep up with the times and help our students and our children just reach their potential with working online. So that's my summary of you. Richard Culatta: It's a very kind introduction everywhere you go. But it's great. And it was fun. And I do remember getting to meet you a couple of years ago. So it's nice that we can reconnect well. Sean Tibor: And also, in addition to all that, you're a published author. So we have your book here, Digital for Good. Kelly, the full title is Helping Kids Learn to Thrive in raising kids, raising Kids to Thrive in an online world. Richard Culatta: Yes. Sean Tibor: And I've been thumbing through this. And Kelly and I each have children and going through there's a lot of food for thought. Here a lot of constructive ideas for how to raise children in these worlds that they're inhabiting simultaneously. So if you could kind of maybe give us a little bit of an introduction to this idea of the two different worlds that we're living in, because what we'd really like to do is talk about how, as educators, we can help empower these kids to thrive in both of these settings. Richard Culatta: Oh, yeah. Happy to look. The reason this came about is really from talking to parents and teachers. They're saying, look, we are struggling to find the right balance in how we're using technology and how to prepare our kids to really thrive is the word in these two worlds. And we really do live in two worlds. We live in a physical world, and we live in a virtual world. And, of course, we go back and forth between them 100 times a day. But they're different, and they require different skills. And we're pretty good at teaching little humans to be good people in physical spaces. We could always do better, but we're pretty good. We have it down. We know that we're not as good at teaching them how to be effective humans in those virtual spaces. And this is the important thing to know is the virtual world that we are throwing our kids into. Now it's not the digital world that we grew up in. It is a highly complex space. There are amazing opportunities to do good things. There are lots of chances to get into trouble. There's a whole bunch in between, and they're complex skills. And the problem is and this is what I heard from parents is they said, look, we go out and we're trying to look at how to do this, right. And all the books that we can find out there say ban technology barrier devices in the backyard. And they're like, that's just not what we're seeing. I'm not going to ban my kid from you. I see all the good that it provides, but I need some tips, and I need some strategies for how to create a healthy digital culture in my home or in my classroom. Surely somebody has written something about that, and I would look around and know there really wasn't a lot about that. So that's what led me to do it. And I have four kids of my own, and we were struggling, my wife and I together to figure out some of these things and again, didn't have that guidance. So the goal is to be a really practical guide, super practical things that work very well, strategies to help create effective digital culture at home and in school. And I hope that that can be. And I've heard from some people that have already read the book. Thank you for providing some ways to look at technology not as an enemy, but as something that has the potential to be really powerful and really positive, but also need some boundaries and some guidelines in order to do it. Well, so that's the idea of the book. Sean Tibor: I agree. I think that was what I took away from it as I was reading it. And what I really appreciated about it, too is this theme of kind of practical positivity, right? That it's not Pollyannaish where the Internet is amazing and let kids do whatever they want. It's really this idea that technology has so many good things and so many positive aspects and attributes. And yet we write as adults, all of our ideas or directions or guidance is all written from this negative perspective. Richard Culatta: Don't do this. Sean Tibor: Don't do that. Turn this off. Don't do this. Be scared, because the internet is full of Dragons and bad people. And this whole idea, I mean, honestly, an internet full of Dragons is pretty cool. Richard Culatta: That sounds awesome, but okay. Sean Tibor: But it's always couched in this negative perspective. And what I really appreciate about the way you looked at this is that there are so many positive benefits of the digital world. How do we make sure that kids can see that they can embrace it? They can get all the good out of that while still being careful and safe and healthy in that world as they navigate it. Richard Culatta: And Sean, the interesting thing is that you actually create kids that are safer and more protected from the bad things by focusing on the good things. So it's not that it's like a strategy of avoiding the bad. It's actually the more effective way to get away from the things that are not healthy and effective. And I look, I get to visit schools a lot used to more now coming back out of the pandemic. And one of the things that I often ask schools is they say, hey, can I see do you have any sort of, like guide for a policy or acceptable use agreement or something like that for using the network and all schools? Oh, yes, of course we do. They're all proud to show it to me. And I say, Cool, can I see it? And it usually is a list of all the things not to do. And I was at a school recently and they showed me a list of 35 don'ts, right. And honestly, if you were to pay me, I don't know that I could come up with 35 things to not do with technology. But anyway, they had they had 35 things not to do. Zero dues not a single invitation. And I was like, really like, all these things not to do. And there isn't a single thing you want your students to do with it. Like, maybe help use technology to support your learning, bring in new ideas to the class. I don't know something. Anything. Be a good digital friend that is just such a backwards message. And what I say is I'm like, is there any other part of your school community where you do this? Let's take your sports programs, right? Do you have a list? I mean, do you go out and teach all the ways to not hit a baseball, right? No. Like, at the end of the day, you can't practice not doing something. You have to practice doing the skill. Music is a great example. Any area. I have a son who plays the piano very well. And so you can't learn to play the piano by being told all of the notes not to play. The only way to play the piano is to practice over and over playing the right notes. And that's the same thing whenever there's a complex skill. And being a member of the digital world is a complex skill, the only way you get to do that is by practicing doing it right, not being told what not to do. And so it's just a fundamental shift that we have to get on board with if we're going to have a chance at having kids that are really able to thrive in this world. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. It reminds me of in a former school I was working at, we switched our entire digital citizenship right up to go through the lenses of I think we're looking at the time, the lenses of Iste or the lenses of the standards, and we switched it to all dues. But again, I was reading some digital citizenship stuff was don't hack. And I'm like, hack kids. Like, what do you mean hack? And I was like, what do you mean? Yes. Do hack be an ethical hacker? I have a really good friend whose job is in Switzerland, and he's one of the top hackers whose job is to go in and try to hack into your company to let you know that you have cyber insecurities and that he needs you to hire him to fix it. So I 100% agree. Don't try to do something. Why do try to do it, but just try to do it for good. Sean Tibor: The other thing I was going to point out, too, is that those acceptable use policies are often artifacts of situations that have arisen over the years. So it's like something happened that we didn't want to have happen and so now we're going to add another one of those don'ts to the list of things that kids can't do. Richard Culatta: Right. Sean Tibor: And I remember this specific example we were talking about. Some kids had figured out how to use VPNs to bypass the firewall restrictions and go play the video games online that they wanted to play. Richard Culatta: And it was like. Sean Tibor: Well, don't use VPNs, period. End of story. And I was like, hold on a second. Vpn is a really useful thing. Like, it's a virtual private network that lets you connect securely to another network. I use a VPN almost every day to connect securely back to my home network without exposing the rest of my home network to the Internet. That's a really positive use case. And in addition to that, let's take a moment to appreciate the fact that kids figured out I want to be able to play this game. How do I do that? I'm going to figure out that there is this thing called a VPN. I'm going to figure out how to set it up, get it working on my computer, and make it work. Those are complex, elevated skills to be able to make that work. If we had figured out how to maybe redirect that a little bit or talk about, like, what could you be using this for? That would be really valuable and beneficial. Unknown: Right. Sean Tibor: Maybe there's some sort of content that's available in another country, and legally, you want to be able to access it. But you have to use a VPN that might help broaden your knowledge of another culture, another country. That's a good use of a VPN. Richard Culatta: Yeah. Sean Tibor: So I think when you start to Peel this back, the policies are kind of an indicator of other conversations that have happened, other ways and attitudes that have been employed over the years. And it's a great way, almost like as a historical document, to go back and look and see here all the things that maybe are the kids that act and fix. Richard Culatta: Yeah. But look at how often that would be if the opposite were true. If you looked at all the ways that you are finding that you should use technology. And it's a whole list of artifacts of over the years of really amazing things that kids have done to find ways to use technology. And that's what they were signing to do. Right. To sign, to be a good digital friend, to be somebody who uses technology, to fact check to use technology, to engage more with their community and solve problems in their school. Like, that's what I want on that list. That's what I want kids signing up for. Sean Tibor: Right. I will use cryptography to protect myself and my yes. Richard Culatta: Right. There you go. Sean Tibor: So, Kelly, I think you had a question for Richard also. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Oh, my gosh. I have so many questions. Well, I just wanted to do the quote like, I love this, and I always like to pull out the quotes. But the conscious of our technology is us like this whole ethics. I think I'll start with ethics right there, because that's one of the things that I felt was an easy way, and I'm going to kind of switch jump into the topics you're digital for good. It's meant for raising kids. It's meant for parents. But when I read it, I was like, oh, my gosh, how can I help the teachers who are not teaching computer science to help them understand that this is their role to do in school? And one of the things I was easy to get into with another teacher was this whole idea of ethics. What's this dystopian versus utopian society that we're dealing with with the technology? And how can we talk about ethics? And I guess my thing is, what ways have you seen that we can support our kids and become stronger citizens of this digital world? Have you seen this in other schools and in other subjects? Sean Tibor: Right. So not just computer science in the technology classroom? Richard Culatta: Sure. Although before we move on to that, I will say that there is a section in the book where I talk about the importance of teaching computer science and coding and computational thinking to kids regardless of what they want to do. Not just kids who want to go into tech fields, but kids that want to go into any sort of leadership in the future. You need to understand some of the underlying pieces. So yes, that is an important piece. But what you bring up here is in the book. One of the things that I do is I have a whole series of questions at the end of every chapter. There's, like, ten questions. My goal of the book was to try to start a new and better conversation. So it really is trying to tee up better conversations with your students, with your kids, with your peers. And so a lot of the questions are questions that intentionally get at issues of ethics and judgment. Right. So there are things like, what is your role? If you have inadvertently shared information that you then find out is not completely accurate. Right. That's an interesting question. Just talk that through for a bit. I don't know if there's an exact right answer, but let's deal with those questions. Another great one is, what is your role when you see somebody in a virtual space or witness in a virtual space who is not being treated in a way that you feel comfortable with? Right. What do you do? Because one of the things we have a lot of data that shows this is that a lot of kids witness the vast majority of kids witness some sort of bullying or inappropriate behavior and do nothing about it. And it's not that they're bad kids. It's that they've never had the conversation about what am I supposed to do? We've never practiced it again back to practicing these skills. And so if you can talk about that in advance, then you're ready in those moments. And it turns out that it does not take a whole lot of intervention to turn around bullying in most cases in virtual spaces. Sometimes it's as simple as, hey, that's my friend. We don't talk about him like that here, right? As simple as that. And then there are some other questions that go even deeper. At the end of the book, I talk about some challenges that we're going to have to face in the future. One of them is thinking about AI and the fact that most of our kids now are going to be working on teams in the future where not all members of their team are human. And so some of the questions that we need to be asking are there decisions that we should ethically be turning over to a machine or not? One of the questions that I really like in the book, I hope everybody reads this part and talks about it is in a world where artificial intelligence can do many of the skills that humans used to be able to do better. What is the value of being human? What is the unique value add that we bring to this world? And I think there's lots of really powerful things that are uniquely human. But when I talk to kids about it now, they have a hard time distinguishing and knowing what is uniquely human. And what is something that we do that's just replaceable when you don't know that you don't know how to double down and really focus on the things that we bring to the world that artificial intelligence never can. So those are just some really important questions that we should be starting to talk about as early as first grade. Right. Like, we need to start that. And below, these are important conversations that we all have to have. Sean Tibor: You know, it's interesting that you bring that up because it also makes me think about a lot of students don't even know what things are AI and what are not right being able to distinguish. Okay, face detection. That's something that seems like it's a pretty obvious use of AI. But because of the way that the Internet works, the way that technology works, students have no idea. Is this really an AI, a machine learning program running on my phone or in the cloud? Or is it a guy who's in Bangalore who's just sitting there clicking through and clicking on faces all day long? Because there's been plenty of examples of companies that have employed low cost workers in other countries to be able to do complex tasks right now because at that time, it's cheaper than training a machine learning model. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I was just thinking while you guys were both talking. So two years ago, we took Sean at our school. We took a course in AI. It was way over my head at the time, but it was cool to really take in what was being done. And I was lucky. And, Sean, we were all lucky to have this course to have a deeper understanding of what is artificial intelligence. Machine learning. And we started having these conversations with students. I don't know if I think you guys might have heard it, but the moral machine was at MIT or something. Mit came up with this whole idea, and we're talking to students, well about colors and lines and, well, if I see this as red and you see this as Maroon, how do we know what that color is? And then I brought up the moral machine. I was like, well, that's kind of what happens when we do self driving cars or when we do an analysis of large amount of data with someone behind the machine had coded this algorithm. And this is obviously a different type of machine learning. No supervised Sam learning supervised machine learning where a person coded this and said, okay, if you see a dog in the road, you're going to swerve out of the way. If you see a cat, you're going to go forward. Dog cat kind of thing. And the kids, I know. Sean Tibor: Sorry, bias against cats. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I know. But it got into a great conversation because it all started from just the difference between seeing colors red versus a Maroon or a dark red. And it's something that I feel lucky about being opened to when I started teaching computer science. And I don't think many people have that opportunity to understand what's happening behind the AI. So you bring up a great point, Richard. Sean Tibor: That kind of leads us into another area that I wanted to talk about, and that's as we're building these skills of computer science, of AI and machine learning, and then also building the foundation of digital citizenship and appropriate behaviors in these different worlds. One of the things he brought up in the book that I thought was really interesting was the digital use divide as well, that it's not just the access to technology, it's the way in which it's being used. So if I have an Internet connection, I can use that to just watch 17 hours of Netflix a day and get a few hours of sleep. Or I can use that to create things. I can make things with the digital capabilities that I have. Can you describe that a little bit more because I think that's a really important point as we go into the future of the digital realm. Richard Culatta: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. That's a really important concept that I share. And we discovered this back when I was working for the US Department of Education, and we were doing a lot of work at the time to close what we were calling the digital divide, which you generally hear it's people that are connected to the Internet or broadband Internet or whatever. And this is, of course, extremely important work. We have to do this to be part of an equitable digital system. But what we found when we looked at it is that there were really some pretty stark difference that we saw in this sort of other divide, which we called the digital use divide. And that was that you had cases where you had kids. We were mostly looking at young people, but I think it could apply in other places as well. You had kids where there would be work done to make sure there was infrastructure devices in a school. But they were using the technology because the teachers were prepared because the vision wasn't there. They were using it in ways that really just kind of digitized traditional practice, literally, like scanning worksheets on a screen, doing what I call nexters, which are those online courses you hit next, next through. And then maybe you answer a multiple choice question. And if you haven't slipped into a coma by the time you're done, you supposedly get credit for having learned something, right, which is garbage from a learning standpoint. You know, that's not how people learn. So that was what we were seeing on one side. It was using technology to just shove content in a kid's face. And the least interesting thing you can do with technology is use it to push content out to a kit. Right? That's just something we know now, on the other side of that divide, we saw technology being used in a very different way. It was being used as a tool in the hands of students, to problem solve, to create, to collaborate, to design. Right. Those are all of the types of things you're using. And maybe there was some content being presented, but it was only being presented enough to help them then be able to use this problem solving tool to help figure out what they needed. It was a tool to connect them to peers, to experts. That is a very different digital experience, completely different digital experience. And so what we call out, and I caught it in the book is that we have to be very careful about this digital use divide, just plugging somebody in. If we're not thinking about how the technology is being used and providing the supports to use it in a really meaningful way, we actually have not made much progress. In fact, you might argue we've taken a step backwards. And so that's important to not conflate connectivity with closing. What is I think the more important digital divide? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. 100%. The tool is not being used in the best way for the job kind of thing I was looking through, just coming back to those conversations, started a couple of questions that you post in the book. Kind of going along with this topic was, what are your favorite places to go online when you want to learn something new? I love that. Where can you learn about something new? Ancient Egypt. Where have you gone? What have you shared? Can you find something different or what is something new that you learned online recently? Just reemphasizing the fact that you have this powerful thing in your hands. And instead of watching a whole bunch of YouTube videos about Minecraft, this guy just playing the game. Well, after you've watched that go build something. Can you code it? Can you go make something better than that person who's been spending all the time making those videos? Richard Culatta: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that's. One of my favorite questions that I share in there is what's something new that you learned online recently. Right. Or where do you go to find those? Great. And those are the types of questions. Those are the types of conversations we need to be having more with our kids. And we need to do much more of it, by the way, tangentially related to that. One of the things that I did, as I was looking at the book, as I was talking to parents and teachers, I would say, do you ever recommend a book to your kids? Right. And across the board, everyone said yes. Right. Of course. I always want to be good readers. I want to recommend books. And especially in these transition years between the young picture books into those early kind of early picture chapter books, and then between those to the kind of real full text books. Those are real. And they tell me their whole strategies for recommending books and the website to go. And so I'd let them go for a little bit. And I'd say, okay, have you ever recommended an app to one of your kids? And in most cases, it was just sort of silent. Right. And I'd say, how are we not doing that? We're so focused on recognizing the importance of recommending books. And I'm not suggesting not to do that. That's great. But why are we not also taking that same care and attention to recommending tools and apps for our kids? If we don't do that, the only way they're discovering apps are from ads that they see or from somebody else that they happen to know in school that's recommending an app to them. That's not okay for my kids, whether they're my students or my own children. Right. So we really need to be thoughtful. And it's a good question for parents. When was the last time you recommended an app to a kid? And if you haven't done it in a while, that's a good thing to start doing. And again, in the book, I provide some tips on how to find good apps to do that. Sean Tibor: Yeah. And if you don't know any good apps, that's a great opportunity for us to broaden our own Horizons. Right. So if I have to make a recommendation, I have to go vet it. I have to make sure that it's a good one. My son got interested in chess because he was playing games with his grandfather. So I had to go find what's a good chess app for a six year old kid to learn the fundamental memos of chess. And there's this amazing chess game where you have to play as the chess characters exploring this world. And as you explore the world, you have to move in the same movement patterns as the pieces. So like the ponds can only move forward and diagonally. If there's another piece there, the Queen can move any direction she want. And the night has to make that L shape move. And my son picked up the movements of chess so quickly because this one app that was recommended to me, I think by one of the moderators on Python Discord worked beautifully for teaching about chess, and I would have never thought about it if I had to make that recommendation 100%. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Well, I'll do a little plug my Sunday time when the kids crawl into bed. There's a lovely website called this. Kids should see this, and I just get sucked into watching these really great videos of things of either learning how to make stuff, kids doing great things, learning how to Cook online. My son got into making swords, or I don't know what he got into on a video, what he got into on a video. But he comes back to me two days ago when he had found a rock from school and he drilled a hole through it and he made his own archaic axe. And he had seen it on this video. So those are the things that I love to hear as well. Sean Tibor: It's good your kids have graduated to the Stone Age. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Oh, my kids have graduated to the Stone Age. Yes, I've taken them out as a computer science teacher. I've taken them out of the tech age. Back to the Stone Age. Sorry, we digress a little bit. I want to jump in because this is something dear to our hearts, because it's very close to us. But you had said something in the book about Spyglass to improve the world around them. And being so close to Parkland, it hit us really hard in our community because we have a lot of teachers and who either worked at Parkland, have known people at Parkland, and I was thinking about this. I was reading it in the book and thank you for mentioning them. It's something very dear to us, but how these kids made such a political, vocal difference in the world by using technology. And it was something that had something in there that just sparked everyone, whether they agreed with gun bands or whatever. These kids had something to say, and they used in such a powerful way. Do you want to elaborate on that? Because that was a great I can't use your words. Richard Culatta: No. Happy to. I mean, look, I had a chance not long after the Parkland events happened to talk with Diane Bulgar, who was the teacher and had worked with a number of these kids. And what was interesting is she said these were students long before any horrific event happened in their school, had been prepared to use technology and social media to amplify their voice. And so what we saw was kids that then very quickly knew how to reshape a narrative that had been taken away from them. And that's something that really struck me. And it's why I write about it in the book. But it struck me because we said, and I used to be a teacher, right. We'd always say your voice matters, and I thought about it. I was like, but it was kind of a lie, right. We'd say your voice matters, but you can't vote and your voice matters, but you have no input into anything that we decide about how your education is going to be and your voice matters. But maybe it's for something that you'll do some day down the road. Right. And your voice matters. But we're never going to give you examples of kids who have done amazing things in the world. They're always adults that you're learning about. Right. So it just struck me, and I thought, wow, technology when used effectively, can really shift that so that a kid's voice really can matter. And so I outlined some examples of that. And there are some certainly of that what the kids at Parkland did about saying here's issues that matter to us. But there are other things as well. I talked about a young kid who was frustrated because Jamba Juice was destroying the environment with the amount of Styrofoam that they were pumping out every day. And so she started a petition to get Jamba Juice to switch to using recyclable paper cups and got a whole bunch of people engaged and involved. And they did right. These are big changes for a young kid. And there's many others that I talk about in there. So this idea of seeing technology as a tool to amplify your voice and impact, that's a critical step that we need to help kids realize. And when they can do that, they can have a really significant impact in the world around them. And they don't have to wait down the road to do that. They can make a difference now. And we have too many issues and too many problems to tell kids. Yeah. You'll get your turn someday because we're doing a pretty good job now, aren't we? No, I don't think so. Right. We need their help, and we need their help now in meaningful ways. And that's what technology allows. And it's really inspiring. Frankly, it helps me think about using my voice better in a digital world when I look at how kids are doing it well. Sean Tibor: And it's so easy to be cynical, too. Richard Culatta: Right. Sean Tibor: It's so easy to be cynical and say, Well, John, but just did it because it was a great PR move for them. Right. But put that aside for a moment. This is a student who made something happen, John bad use, regardless of their motivation, still did it, and they probably would not have if that student that's right, hadn't been heard by someone at John BJU who said, you know what? We should make a change for whatever reason they made. Right. So I think that's the part that as we are helping to prepare our students and helping to talk to them and help them make changes, I think they don't even realize what kind of reach their voice has. If they want to start a podcast, it could be heard by people around the world more so than I think we ever thought in our generation. I remember when I was a kid and I was in a gifted program for half a day, one day a week. And one of the things that teacher did was help connect us with a classroom in Minnesota. So there I am, growing up in Alaska, way out, way out north. We're connected with another classroom in Minnesota, and we're sharing weather data on the same day over something called the Internet, and it was even pre worldwide web was I think we were using, like, Gopher or something to share data. Right. And it was amazing to me that we could be connected with someone that far away. And we had to go through so many Hoops to make that happen. We had to upload it. We had to connect with the modem and all of these things that would happen. And yet our students have that reach in their pockets. Richard Culatta: Right. Sean Tibor: They have that ability to amplify their voice and reach people that I think to the point of doing good with it. There are 7 billion people in the world, and that means that there are people that share your ideas. There are people that have the same interests as you. And there are also people who can help expand your mind with different perspectives when they go global. Richard Culatta: Right. Yes. And I want to highlight something here that's important, which is and in the book, I talk about sort of macro level impact and micro level impact, and both are important. And so sometimes there are opportunities to do things like get Jamba juice to be more eco friendly or help say no. Here, let's tell you what we really feel about protecting kids in schools from gun violence. Right. Those are sort of macro level things. But I also talk about the importance of micro level advocacy. And these are things about, like using your voice, a kid using their voice to help improve their local school community. Right. Something as simple as making posts and sharing highlights that recognize talents of other kids in their school posting. Hey, you did something really awesome, and I want to shout you out for it, but you look really great today. And I want to call you out for that or whatever it is, right? Those small micro level movements actions can have a deep impact, a profound impact on somebody who's having a rough day and feeling like the world is against them. And all of a sudden it's a social media post that shouts them out for having done something really awesome, right. And it's that balance between those two. I think that's really powerful. There are chances that you can really change the world. And you know what? You can make deep impact in your community, even if you're not changing the world at a large scale, every single moment of your life. And that's important to recognize, too. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. You just reminded me yesterday I had such a huge smile on my face from the female lead on LinkedIn three talking to a video camera about you're having a bad day, girl, get up, get up. You're powerful. And I got done watching this. I was so Sean, I was like, you have to watch this. And he looked at me at first, and then he started watching like, oh, my God, that's so good. But when kids and I'm going to switch a little bit to computer science, kids come in and they say, Well, I can only code so many things. How am I supposed to do anything? And then I had a student come up with this little smile app, and it was like, what are you feeling today? Are you feeling happy? Are you feeling sad? And then if they said sad, they put an emoji of a person emojis of a happy face. And then afterwards, they're like, now, do you feel happier? And I was like, that small little thing, that little piece of code that you thought you couldn't make something powerful was just that thing. It was powerful. And we have the ability, whether we know a lot of code or a little bit of code to send out positive messages. And I like that micro level stuff. And if you have followed me on LinkedIn, you have to check out this video from the female lead. I love it. I watch it a couple of times already. Sean Tibor: I'm probably going to save it to my phone, too, because I think that's where to your point. The nice thing I think you made this point a few times in the book is that in the digital world, physical proximity doesn't matter, right? And in fact, the only thing that really separates us around the globe anymore in the digital world is time zones and who's awake and who's asleep at any given time. And so these three women that you're having a bad day video, it's something that feels micro, right? Like it feels like they're talking to you and you're having a bad day. And they're going to cheer you up specifically. And yet maybe they can send that to a friend. And it cheers up their day or they send it to ten people and cheers up their day. It's something that I think if kids get that sense of, I'm making a difference for one person, and then they realize the power of being able to scale that into that macro level. It becomes even more powerful. And their voices and their ideas and their creativity and their emotional literacy and competency is brought to bear against a lot of our problems that we have in the world. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I'll just do a quote while we all pause and ponder all that deepness. But you said teach them to become contributing digital citizens who positively shape the virtual world and activities within it. And I think that was huge, not only changing the virtual, but putting the activities in it. And I know a lot of the times an adviser injury or homeroom classes, we go, oh, you're going to be positive digital footprint or you're going to do this. But yet the kids try to go on to LinkedIn or they try to go into Twitter and it's blocked. So circling back to the first conversation of getting kids into a place where they can have positive voice, where they can make these activities where they can do their policing or learn how to identify negative incidences or bad websites or bad people and figure out how to shape it and make it better. A lot of food slots. Richard Culatta: Yeah. And to be comfortable with the skill of learning how to curate and moderate in a virtual world. Right. And one of the things that I say is that in order to be effective leader in the future, you will have to have a skill of knowing how to curate and moderate virtual spaces. So I think we need to do a lot more practicing of that. Having kids learn to moderate communities, whether they're digital communities within the school, whether it's Wikipedia, whether there's a variety of those places. But this idea of having that experience being a content moderator curator is really a critical skill for any future leader. And so getting that skill as a young person, whether that's participating in moderating a local community, whether it's doing something like being a moderator on Wikipedia, that is a key citizenship skill that we need effective members of our digital society to have. Sean Tibor: Yeah. I think one of the things that could be practiced really easily is moderating your own discord server. I mean, many of our students have set up discord to communicate with their friends and adding that idea of if you set this up, you have to moderate it, right. It's like it followed you home. You have to take care of it. So we have opportunities all around us. And it kind of reminds me of one of the first questions I ask students new students to computer science is, why are we teaching you computer science? Richard Culatta: Right. Sean Tibor: And their answers usually fall into a few buckets. The first bucket is because you told me to, right? We don't have the luxury of choosing what we want to learn. We're often told what we're going to learn, and you've told us we're going to learn computer science. But the second most common answer they give is in the future, computers are going to be really important. And I say, Guys and girls, we're going to take a time out here. Computers are really important now, and I don't want to teach you things that you're going to forget about and then try to remember ten years from now. I want to teach you things that you can use today skills that you can use today ideas that you can use today. And I think that moderation is one of those skills, right? Being able to moderate your online communities, being able to create things now that make your life better or make your friends lives better. I guess my question to you is those skills that kids can start to gain is never too late to teach them. Is there anything that's like, oh, well, you missed your shot. You can't teach them those skills because they've gotten too old. Richard Culatta: It's a great question. And I get that question a lot, actually. And it's not only about the skills. Sometimes I get it from families and parents who say, hey, we didn't establish a healthy tech culture in our home. Is it too late to do it now? I do talk about this in the book, and the first part of the answer is it's never too late, right? It is absolutely never too late to start to both deepen skills that we have in terms of using technology for good, for improving our communities and our society. And it's never too late to set up to improve our technology culture in our homes and our schools. Now there's a reality that gets harder to do and takes more effort and is a slower process if you start later, right. If you have kids at home who are 16 years old, by the time, we're starting to talk about some of these norms, for what type of technology culture we want to have in our home. There's going to be some tough habits to break, not too late, but it's just going to be a heavier lift. Same with kids in school. It's going to be harder to help think about how to use technology to make an impact and to improve their future happiness and learning if we have started too far down the road, that's my kind of split answer, which is it is never too late. And the earlier you can start, the easier it is to build those good habits and not have to spend a lot of time breaking bad ones. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: But you said the key word is a habit, and I think that is something that needs to be highlighted for a lot of people. It is a habit and like any habit of eating healthy or going to the gym or whatever. It takes a lot of focus. It takes a lot of routine, and it takes a lot of commitment. And so that's one of the things that I hear sometimes from parents as well as, like, I can't get my son to get off of YouTube. I'm like, we'll take the device away and have a conversation about what to do. There is a lot of habit to be built, and it's something important to talk about. Richard Culatta: Actually, let's pull that one apart a second, because that's a really good example that I hear a lot. And so one part of that is this idea of it started from this sort of negative frame. I can't get my kid to get off of YouTube. And one of the questions that I often ask when I hear that is to do what and often the response, I don't know, just not YouTube, like, okay, well, if that's the case, you don't have a very compelling argument for your kids. So I think that's the first thing is, what is it that you should be doing instead? So pitch it as a positive. I don't have a problem with YouTube. I mean, unless they're watching something really crazy. But if they're just watching, I don't have a problem with YouTube. I do worry that you haven't had much time to engage with your family. And we've decided as a family that family time matters. Youtube isn't my problem. But I do worry that you haven't had much family engagement time. Can we shift to that or I worry that you haven't had exercise today. We've talked that exercise matters, so shifted out. So it's not about what not to do on YouTube. It's about what other activity could you or should you be doing. And so that's really an important shift. The other thing, and just to use this as an example to bring it out here a little bit is I have had parents who I've talked to about this. I get to speak to parents around the world, and they've said, look, I tried it and it didn't work. I was like, really, what did you say? Well, you said that we're over talking about screen time and screen time shouldn't be what we should use to moderate. So instead I'm going to suggest other ways to know when we've had enough technology. I did it one night and then the next day, the same thing was happening and you're watching too much YouTube. And I'm like, Whoa, wait a minute. These are skills that take years to develop, right. And I compare them a lot. A lot of what I do in the book is compare what we do in the digital world for teaching our kids to the physical world. And there's a lot of similarities that I think we miss. And so one of them that I like to compare is teaching kids to be good, healthy eaters. We all try to do this like my kids, if we didn't ever try to intervene, would eat macaroni and cheese three meals a day. Right. But as parents over time, we slowly interject other foods and vegetables, and we get a macaroni cheese tomorrow. But today for lunch, we're going to have something healthier, right. And we sort of do all this stuff that takes years to do. And we're lucky we have very healthy, good eaters. But that didn't happen because one night I tried to say, let's do broccoli instead of macaroni and cheese. Right. And so that's one of the things that we have to remember with our families and our classrooms is this is a culture shift. These are skills that we have to practice over time. And if you do them consistently over time, you actually see really good, solid, healthy habits being built. But it's not a one time quick. Let's try this one time. And now we're done until my kids 18. Right. These are skills we have to continually be reinforcing and building and growing together as a family or as a school community. Sean Tibor: And I think one of the other things that you brought up in the book that I want to highlight here is that fluidity and the appropriateness of the child of the day of the environment. So to use the food analogy, just because we've been eating healthy and we get home and we're really tired and we're going to make Mac and cheese tonight. It doesn't mean that we've given up on eating healthy, right. It just means that particular day there was a reason for that. Or if the kids sick at home, maybe it's not the worst thing in the world for them to rest on the couch and watch something that isn't particularly stimulating. Right. And then the next day, when they're feeling better, you go back to the normal routine or look at what the next day brings and adjust accordingly. Richard Culatta: Yeah, that context really matters. And again, it works with eating, too. As you mentioned, there are times where we're in a hurry, we're going to stop and we're going to go to Wendy's like, okay. That's great. But that does not mean that we now eat Wendy's everyday. Right. And same thing with you mentioned kids sick at home. Sometimes we're on a long car ride, right. It's a long, boring car ride. And you know what? Just watch something on, just watch some videos, just play some games, just help you get through that. It's okay. Right. That is not okay if it's a day after school and there's a big project due the next day and that would be a very inappropriate use of that technology. So I think what happens is sometimes parents and we all do this. We want to create these hard, fast rules, right. 2 hours of screen time a night or ten minutes of screen time a night or whatever it is. There's this limited and the thing is that that is very dependent on what's happened in the kids life that day. What are the other activities they participated in? What do they have do the next day? Is that appropriate? And what is happening during that time? Right. There are some activities where five minutes is too much. Right. And there are some digital activities where 5 hours is probably appropriate if I'm reading a book or I'm using an app to connect with a friend or learning a new language or making a video. I mean, there's on and on. So we have to just recognize that these it's not a hard fast rule and that we actually really teach the wrong lesson when we teach a hard fast rule, especially about screen time. And I talk about this in the book. If we say you get an hour a day, well, that teaches kids that all activities on my device are of the same value. Right. Because in our day, whether again, let's go back to food. Let's say that we treated food like this and said we have food time for an hour a day from six to seven at night is food time and you could eat Twinkies for the hour, or you could eat a healthy meal. Doesn't matter as long as you stop at 07:00, when food time is over. All good. And also, by the way, because we're doing food time, you should cram as much food as you possibly can in your mouth, right. Until 07:00, right. No, that's ridiculous. We want kids to stop eating when they're full, same with our technology use. It's not the clock that should tell them they're done. They need to overtime with guidance and support, recognize when they're full, when they've had enough of a digital activity and when they need to move on. And that may be long before a timer goes off. If we were using a clock as the moderating so much. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I want to talk about that. I can't because I want to control our time. Probably. Sean Tibor: And you'll have are you applying screen time? Kelly Schuster-Paredes: I am applying and I'm hoping I can explain what I'm about to I'm going to do one of these weird connection things, and Sean is going to have to explain it because he could speak for me sometimes better. So yesterday, based on the fact that sometimes we have teachers that think that Sean and I are the only ones who should be teaching tech skills and everything. I went and I looked up computer science majors. And again, hopefully you can explain this. But I went and looked up. What is it for a computer science major? And I'm going to kind of compare it with the SD standards because they assume my curriculum is to build the kids to go into computer science, which it's not 100%. Not saying that's what my curriculum is. But as a computer science major in College, they're studying systems, designing, solving problems. They're learning about languages, they're learning about networks or learn about security management, AI and critical technology needs. And I started thinking, I'm like, okay, so that's my curriculum. But how is that not everybody else's curriculum, because students have to constantly leverage technology in science, leverage technology when they go to the library to find a book or not find a book, they need to find about rights and responsibilities. And I guess what I'm kind of my passionate ploy and, Sean, maybe you can add to this is that it's not just a computer science thing. Like what you're doing with your book. Is it's so powerful and it's something that we all have to dive into. So can you summarize maybe what my question is. Sean Tibor: I guess the question is, as you've gone around and you've talked with teachers, you've talked with educators. Are there particular examples that you've seen that you can share where there is that multidisciplinary approach to integrating technology into education, where the teachers are both collaborating together, or they're using technology in delightful and unexpected ways to engage engender better learning, I guess, is the best way to put it. Richard Culatta: One of the things that I really try to emphasize in the book is this idea that digital citizenship is a team sport and that participants are teachers of all subjects, parents, community leaders. We got to all be in on this. And the companies that provide the tools and apps that we use, they're part of this, too. Higher education needs to be. This is an all in sort of thing, because this isn't just about some niche skill that you need for a particular job. This is about the skills to maintain our democracy, right? Like, literally, our democracy is at stake. If as it transitions into the digital world, we forget to teach the skills that are required to have a functioning civil society. And so we got to all be in on this. And we're all going to have different parts that we talk about in different areas that we focus on. And that's okay. That's great. That's exactly what we want. But we can't think that we can kind of just delegate teaching kids to be good citizens, digital citizens to a CS teacher or their tech teacher or any particular teacher. It has to be all of us thinking very thoughtfully about what are the skills that we need to have a functioning society, a healthy, kind, collaborative society, the type of world we want to live in in a virtual space. And we have that moment. We have the time to have that conversation. But there will be a point where it will be too late, and we will have created a virtual world that is so dysfunctional that it's a place that none of us want to live, and it will be too late to then back out of it. And so now is the time. This is the moment for us all to come together. And identify and talk about what type of people do we want to be in virtual spaces and practice that with our kids and talk to them about that and involve them. They will shock you with the thoughtfulness of their answers. When you ask them, what type of digital human do you want to be? What should our family culture be? What type of things do we want to be known for in our digital presence, as a family or as a classroom community in a virtual world, listen to what they say. They're very thoughtful. And I think if we can have those conversations, we're teeing ourselves up to have a really exciting future world. And if we don't, we're really in trouble. Sean Tibor: I think the other thing that I like about that, too, is that education and our children and our families are a great rallying point for this conversation, right. It's a place that we can all agree that we need to focus our attention and our energies, and our primary focus can be helping the next generation become better equipped, become empowered to shape that world that they want to live in and that we will also inhabit with them. But the secondary purpose of that is that along the way, we all benefit because it's really hard to say to your children. I want you to behave this way online. I want you to be kind, and I want you to be thoughtful, and I want you to be respectful of others. And then after they go to bed, go get online and be angry at other people. Right. If we are telling this to our children, we want to also role model that behavior, and it makes us all better participants in that digital world for having this focus and having this goal so that we all win. We all benefit from making this our focus in the world. Yeah. Richard Culatta: Sean, that's great. Actually, that may be a nice place to end on that note, because I wrote this book and I'm clear about it. My expertise is in working with young people on how to use effective technology. But as I've written it, and as I read it myself, I'm like, you know, there are some really good helpful lessons in there for the older people in these kids'lives as well. And so, yes, we could certainly take a lot of the lessons that I share in there and reflect them back on ourselves and maybe ask how we're doing. And perhaps as we think about our goals for 2022, notch it up a level in terms of what type of people we want to be in virtual spaces as well. Sean Tibor: Exactly. Unknown: 100%. Sean Tibor: Exactly. So, Richard, thank you so much for joining us. This is a wonderful conversation and an important one, too. This is about our future. It's about the kind of world that we want to live in, both digital and physical. Thank you for helping us discuss this. Bring some thoughts to us and our audience. We're going to post links to the book on Amazon and to any place else you'd like to direct us. But it is a wonderful read. It is very digestible. It's something that you can look at with that's full of practical examples and ideas and thoughts and questions so highly recommended for teachers, for parents, for people who are just interested in being better citizens of the world. Is there anything else that we should be highlighting we have ISD live coming up, anything else that you're working on that you'd like to share with our audience? Richard Culatta: Oh, there's all kinds of things that we're working on that we'd love to share. No, I would just say, first of all, thank you. Thanks very much for having me here and helping to make this conversation happen. I appreciate that. And I will also share a link with you for people that want to get the book from local independent bookstores, so certainly can get on Amazon. But I also like to share that because it's being carried in many bookstores. And I love to support local bookstores when we can. And I would say for other things, just keep a watch out. We're going to be announcing some new things at Istisum, which are pretty exciting, including a completely overhauled tool to help choose effective apps and websites for learning. Sort of the Consumer Reports of Edtech, if you will. We've had requests for that for a long time and we're going to release that. It will be called the Edserge Product Index, and we're really excited it'll happen out under our Ed Surge brand. So be watching for that. And otherwise, I hope to see many of you in June with us in New Orleans. It's an exciting time to get back together and to share what we haven't been able to share in several years. So looking forward to seeing both of you and many of your listeners there as well. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Excellent. Sean Tibor: Excellent. All right, wait. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: We got to plug a couple real quick. Just plugging, because if we don't, our boss will definitely get mad at us going global, integrating innovation, technology and social entrepreneurshipreship to improve our world is the innovation Institute that we're hosting here at Pinecrest. It is virtual April 20, 425 26 because we love it. We learned a lot. We have some great speakers, and Shawn and I are keynoting this year, so it should be interesting. Sean Tibor: We're also making LEDs light up. We're coding them. We're knitting them. It's going to be great. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: Yeah. So excellent. Yeah. Now we can go. Sean Tibor: All right. Well, thank you for listening, Richard, once again, thank you for joining us. It was a pleasure. Hopefully we can do this again soon. So for teaching Python. Kelly Schuster-Paredes: This is Sean, and this is Kelly. Signing off.