peter-chan_1_12-10-2019_144101 and sean-tibor_1_12-10-2019_144100 Sean Tibor: hello and welcome to teaching Python. My name is Sean Tibor. I'm a coder who teaches Kelly Paredes: and my name's Kelly Schuster Puranas, and I'm a teacher who coats. Sean Tibor: This is episode 36 an interview with Peter Chan. Welcome. So Kelly, we have a special guest and some new technology this week. So we're on the line with Peter channel coming in all the way from Canada. How are you, Peter? Peter Chan: I'm great. I got to say I've never done anything like this guys. It is such a treat to be here and, uh, I'm learning about the potential in what you do with your podcasts as much as I'm connecting with two new friends, thanks for inviting me. Okay. Kelly Paredes: Excellent. Having you here. Sean Tibor: Yeah. So this week we're, um, you know, kind of in that stretch, right between Thanksgiving and the winter break here in the U S um, so things are moving along pretty quickly, and we're going to start the same way we always do. As even though things are busy with the win of the week. So Kelly, I'm going to make you go first this time. Oh, you're not Kelly Paredes: making our guests go first. Sean Tibor: Yeah, usually that's my favorite part. But we're going to, we're going to go easy on Peter this week and let him go second. Kelly Paredes: I'm so excited. I get to go first and I'm going to give you time to think about it, Peter. Peter Chan: Set the bar high. Kelly Paredes: struck. I will set the bar high. I have to steal the one that Shawn's. Thinking of, I think, um, no. I think our win of the week, we have the hour of code today. Um, it is the official week of the hour of code and many schools across, um, the world, uh, are doing hour of code and we always, we've done it now this is our second year. Um, first the first hour is always slow. Then the second hour kids hear about it and we probably had about 60 kids in there. Correct. Sean Tibor: Yeah, , we do it in two different class periods. So the second class period that we did it, uh, we had about 60 or 70 students in there. I think the library that we have here in our middle school was pretty full. Kelly Paredes: Yeah. And what's really funny is even though our kids code in Python, they still love to go back and do some, a Java script and block coding with Minecraft. They love hacking Minecraft. When you leave the door open. The first thing they're going to do, they, they stumbled back to something that they really love having falling chickens. Sean Tibor: Yeah. I don't know who would have encouraged them to go to coding and Minecraft or anything. Kelly Paredes: Does that mean I had automate the boring stuff out? Just letting you know, swagger Sean Tibor: a, well, it wasn't a lot of fun. We were, um, we were coding in micro Minecraft and we had chickens raining from the sky and kids making giant lava pools. Um, you know, it really is interesting. Yeah. So you can code with tinker or with make code in Minecraft. And so you can both automate your agent to walk around and spawn lava blocks everywhere, or you can, um, trigger things to happen off of chat commands. So it's kind of like casting spells in Minecraft where you can say like, death from above, and then all these monsters start flying down from above you. It's kinda fun. Peter Chan: That's very Kelly Paredes: world. Sean Tibor: I'm sorry. I mean or so. I hear Kelly Paredes: he makes them all Peter Chan: a little bit of a geek in some of you. I think I get the feeling there. Kelly Paredes: It's not me. I like the boring stuff, Sean Tibor: but you're like automating Peter Chan: you and I have that in common. Then. Sean Tibor: Yup. Yup. So it was, it was a lot of fun. We, we really do enjoy the hour of code because, um, you know, our classes for computer science are not. Taught to all students at the same time. So our hour of code is a great way to bring students in from across our middle school. And no matter whether they've had computer science yet this year, or whether they've already had it or whether they're going to, they're in it right now. So it works really well to bring everyone together and have a little bit of fun writing code. Kelly Paredes: And then they also get to play turret with turtle turtle graphics. I saw a lot of turtle graphics today and I got to show some of the kids, um, that we haven't taught yet. A couple of iterations and random. They're like, Oh, cool. And they edited some of their old code. Sean Tibor: It's fun. Yeah. So if you're a teacher out there who, um, it missed out on an hour of code this week, you can do hour of code pretty much anytime you want. It's a really fun thing to do. Uh, no matter what time of year it is. Kelly Paredes: Yeah. And coasters has a three Python. Um. Hour of code sessions, we can put that in the link Sean Tibor: to, Oh, let's do that. Yeah. There's also some good stuff coming out from tinker. So there's a, if you just Google for hour of code with Python, um, there's a lot of good stuff happening there. Yeah. All right, Peter, I think it's your turn. Uh, so the win of the week is something positive that's happened inside or outside of the classroom. Peter Chan: Great. Well, you know, like I'm, I'm a big believer that you need to ha allow the children, I'm a grade four teacher. And my responsibilities, all the English subjects is math as well as the English. And, um, and I'm a big believer that you need to give the children free time in order to allow them to discover and explore. So my room is, is, it's not where I want it to be, but it's on its way to being a maker space almost a completely, and there's a bunch of things that most other classrooms don't have. Um, but today the, when was, when I gave them their free time, almost to. The letter, every one of them went into coding, went into a, uh, we're working with Tinkercad, doing 3d designing. Uh, they went into, um, a twiner writing, non writing, nonlinear, uh, fiction, and they weren't all of the things that I've shown them, like they've really transformed from being. I guess, I guess, you know, they're, they're gamers with, with their tech, from, from being gamers to creators, all of them. And they were choosing that. It wasn't, I assigned nothing. They had the choice to go and play a game if they wanted, but all of them were opting to create something. And for me, just seeing that transformation, uh, was a real win. Kelly Paredes: That's awesome. We love seeing kids create. I think that opportunity for that free play and play to learn philosophy is something that, um, every great teacher needs to have. Peter Chan: play to learn gamification. It's so true. I think, um, it makes our job a lot easier. Like a I S I suffer from, um, from a medical condition that drains my energy. And so I honestly am an, I'm doing what I'm doing in my room to foster a balance of my energy. And one of the ways that I found to entice everybody, uh, without exception to do whatever it is we're working on, be it math or English, is to, in some capacity, bring in coding or creating and, uh, and they love it. Yep. Sean Tibor: Well, I definitely think we should come back to that during our main conversation because I think that you bring up a really good point about managing energy in the classroom right. That's something I'd like to talk more with you about, um, about how to bring your own energy and how to manage the energy of the classroom so that it operates at the best possible level. Sean. All right. So, so for me, I'm going to go the other direction. So mine's not really about the students yet. Uh, so this is something that I was working on as planning for our last day of classes before we go on winter break. So. Our last day of classes before winter break, we have something called the Panther cup, which is kind of a big field day event for a half day in the morning, and we have all sorts of stuff, like a big tug of war competition. There's Dodge ball, there's a bunch of silly relays and games and everything, and it's just a lot of fun. And a lot of good competition and good memories that our students are building. And so I got shanghaied into being part of the planning committee for this, or voluntold, whatever you want to call it. Right. Um, and so part of what I did was bring in some electronic scoring and bringing in in a ways to, Kelly Paredes: we have to get the scoring correct because, you know, I'm a. Competitive person. Go ahead, sorry. Sean Tibor: Yeah, and it's, and, and I've been hearing about this for a year about how the scoring needs to be improved for Panther cup from a certain unnamed teaching partner of mine. So, so I'm, so I've got, I've got Kelly's back and I'm, I'm going out and I'm making our scoring more electronic and more transparent and all of those things, but the big win has actually been. Planning all the rosters and everything for the students. So we have to form teams and we have to make sure that they're fair and that they're not, you know, stacked in any way. Um, so what I've done is actually written a bunch of Python scripts that bring in our school roster of all the students and the roster of all the teachers, and then assigns all the students to teams based on grade level and gender and you know, a few other factors. And then spits that all out to Google sheets. So that it can be shared with everyone. Um, and one of the things that was really important to me was making sure that the teams had an even mix of boys and girls in grade levels and things like that. So it also spits out some statistics to verify that the assignments truly are more random and balanced among the grades and genders. So it all has come in, come together, um, to the point where I've now got all the . Teams assigned to visit all the students assigned, and now I'm going to take the next step, which is going to parse through that spreadsheet and send emails to all the teachers with their classroom or their rosters for their teams, and send emails to all the students saying, here's your team leader and where to go for all of these things. So it's all going to be personalized using a lot of stuff from automate the boring stuff. Kelly Paredes: I love this. I was watching. Yeah. I was watching Sean show me some of the teams as he was randomizing it. And this is one of those things that as a teacher, you can totally use in a whole bunch of different ways. Can you imagine like groups for field trips, um, managing other types of sports field days? I mean, it's a, it's a great, great project that you did. Sean Tibor: Yeah, I mean, cause I, one of the things I really wanted to do was try to remove the unconscious bias that you would get if you were grouping the teams or Kelly Paredes: randomize it again. Sean Tibor: Yeah. So it's coming together into a nice little project. So it's a, it's a great way of, of taking something that's a tedious teacher chore and making it something that is, you know, more automated. And I'm not saving a huge amount of time with it, but I'm also teaching myself and practicing the coding techniques that I'm teaching in class, so it works really well. It's cool. Peter Chan: Well, I, I don't know if it's my turn to speak, I'm just going to jump in and tag. I don't know how this works. Um, so I, I gotta say, Sean, you and I are very much alike in, in my beginnings with Python. We're from the book, automate the boring stuff, and, uh, that is that right? I always go to that and, and the spirit of what that was, which was to, to truly make Python useful to you, not just side projects where it's basically practicing commands and syntax, but, but you're truly doing things to change your efficiency in life. Um, that's, that's what really got me into Python. And, um, um, I, I've got programming skills. I'm, I'm an old geek. I'm going on 50 now and, and I, I was. You know, until the BBS is as a kid and, uh, and ran, I was a system operator as a teenager. And, uh, yeah, I've been geeking with basic when it was first out. So I've been doing it for a while, but, but when I saw the power of Python with automate the boring stuff, that really got me excited. And, um, and like you said, there's so much you can do to make your, your life easier, period. Yeah. Sean Tibor: I don't suspect, I would say especially in, in the area of education and teaching, I think that's especially true. I mean, I've. Spent most of my career in a corporate setting. And of course there are opportunities to improve efficiency and productivity in a corporate setting. But I think with, when it comes to teaching and education, we become set in our ways. When we think about, Oh, well, we have to just do this, and the only way to do it is to kind of go with a brute force method or just the tedious way of doing it. Um, but one of the things that's been great coming out. A teaching career with a fresh set of eyes is being able to say, well, why do we do that? You know, help me understand asking those questions as a newbie to the process, because sometimes it's not about automation there. It's not about the brute force. There's often good reasons for it, and so understanding the reasons for why things are done the way they are has been really helpful for my growth as a teacher, as well as finding opportunities to automate things. Yeah. Kelly Paredes: So let's take a step back though. So Peter, can you tell us, just tell us a little bit what you do, and you're a fourth grade teacher in Quebec, and, and you teach math and English Peter Chan: So I teach, I, I've, I've 20 years teaching my, my career has been a, an adventure, a circuitous route to getting where I am at, at a small elementary school in a, in a, um, a rural offline Island area outside of Montreal. Um, called Mount pleasant. It's beautiful, beautiful, small town here in Hudson. And, uh, I overlook a forest outside of my room, and the kids have a walking path through the trees at recess. I mean, it's just beautiful here. Um, I've, I've taught all over the place. I. I started teaching in South Korea. I've taught in Ontario. I've taught all grades, both French and English. I've been a computer specialist. Previous to teaching I was, um, I was in technology. I was, um, I did a lot of technology support. Sean Tibor: I think this is, this is really helpful because one of the things that, um, you know, many of our teachers and then the Python listeners have is that kind of. You know, not an indirect path to teaching, right? Or the path that takes them in a lot of different places. Cause I think a lot of people who are drawn to Python are dabblers, right? Like we try different things and we expect and we're not afraid to jump into new Peter Chan: that's right. Kelly Paredes: And that's the thing, especially the people that do different things and dabble around, um, have that passion for learning new things. So I think that's what we always try to promote is, is if you're that person that's passionate about learning. Why not learn coding? Why not teach it Peter Chan: Well, you're, you know, what, the dabbling, the tinkering that, that is definitely me. I am somebody who jumps right in and, uh, and plays in a lot of fields. So you asked me what I do. Um, well, I, I, what I do is I've been involved in tech all my life and, uh, and so I'm much further ahead than, than a lot of teachers that I've run into in the 17 different schools I've taught at. um. And so I end up doing workshops on technology and, um, and I've taken a little bit from every school I've been at. It's really been quite a godsend for me because, because I've learned so much from all of the staff that I've, you know, I just learned one or two items, one or two gems from everywhere I've been. And, uh, so 20 years later, I've got all of these skill sets that I throw into my room. So I refurbished using Linux my own computer lab. And, uh, I send out an email to all of the parents at the beginning of the year saying, please don't ever throw out a laptop ever again. Um, send it into the school. And if I can't get it working, I steal it for parts or whatnot, and I figure it out. And I've got 30, um, I've got 30, uh, laptops to Shiva laptops now that, uh, that, uh, I don't have to share with anybody. And they're, they're, you know, passwords. And remembering your. Your darn password that is such a block to young people and their progress. Keep in mind, I teach grade four, right? So I've, you know, made them password exempt and, uh, and the kids have access and they love it. And, um. And so we use those computers to do a variety of things. One of them is Python. We start with scratch and then we move into Python. Um, we, I have a threeD printer in the room. And so we're designing, using Tinkercad. We're doing a lot of three D printing. Um, and then my projects, I base my projects around the tools that they have access to in the training they have access to with me. So, um, one of our mid year projects is, something that's called my invention. Invent something that solves a real world problem. And given that we have the coding and, and the three D printing, um, they truly can come up with solutions to real world problems. Um, the other one of our projects is my expertise and they have to go and learn something on their own that, uh, that they then have to teach the rest of the class and they present and they become teachers. Um, I've done a lot with classroom management around working in groups and whatnot. Again, to preserve my energy, um, because I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I didn't have a strategy by which I am a completely decentralized teacher. I float around and like a butterfly, just seeing what they're doing, but I have them lead. Um. And if anything, I play the Colombo routine. I'm the stupid one who needs guidance and they come around and they say, no, Mr. Chen, we should be doing this now. And Mr. Chan, no, that fraction is not larger than this. Right. And you know, as long as at the end of the day, they're leaving with what they need. Uh, I basically, I just constantly am fostering, inspiring them to take ownership over. Creating and exploring, Kelly Paredes: absolutely. We call that facilitating the learning Peter Chan: facilitating the learning. Kelly Paredes: Yes, we facilitate the situation and allow them to do the learning and the hard work, Peter Chan: Nice. Facilitate the Sean Tibor: know? I liked that, especially at that kind of grade four age level, right? Because you know, at so many age levels, students are looking to increase their own autonomy and self direction and everything, but by transferring control of their own agency as learners is really important at that age level because they're the ones who then start to direct where they want their learning to go. They're the ones who feel a sense, like a real stake in learning. It's not something that they're told to learn. Now it's something that they can learn and that when they're able to correct the teacher in a nice way, or show the teacher the right way, or teach the teacher something, then it gets them, you know, it gives them a real sense of, I'm, I can do this. Like I have a confidence in my own abilities to learn something. And that's something that can take them really far, especially if they're generating that feeling in fourth grade. Kelly Paredes: I love the fourth grade age group. We taught a couple of. Fourth graders in the summer school and they are little sponges. I think they're right before the leaders of the school. I'm not sure how your, what your school age goes up to. Does it go up to fifth grade or Peter Chan: It goes up to sixth Kelly Paredes: I was six, so they're almost the leaders of this school and I feel like that age right before they get there, they, they just really want to learn and they want to show people what they want to do and it's such a great movement. Peter Chan: Mm. I, um, I, I hear what you're saying and I, I've got, I've got a tag on that that, um. When you add that control, and that's what I do. I constantly am giving them both freedom and control. And then coupled with that, it's responsibility. And when you do that at the younger ages, all my gosh, you get to see potential that you would not have been able to see had you just, you know, assigned worksheets. And said, okay, finish this. This is what you need to do. This is how you need to work. And, and kept it all centralized, listened to me. And, and the fact that I decentralize and say, okay, who's got a, you know, an idea for how we can expand on this topic? I never know what, where we're going to go from day to day. And it's amazing how far we get by the end of the year. Um. Just to illustrate that I have this wall where it's called the wall of inspiration. And what they do is I never assign homework. I say, you're allowed to take this book home. You're allowed to take that book home. You're allowed to do this. This is a website. Can you access it from home? Yes. Um, and, and then, uh, they send in selfies. They're parents are sending in selfies, and I've got this wall full of selfies of them doing things that I have not assigned. And, and it's, it's really. Cool. And, uh, and it makes me coming in in the morning so much happier to be doing my job. And so they get a teacher who is excited, like they are. Um, I think too many of my colleagues to some degree, um, you know, head towards burnout. That centralized method is, is to me, a recipe for, for early burnout. Kelly Paredes: I've been teaching of about. 20 to 22 years. And it is that hard line of, of watching people that do get burned out and we'll just end up doing something because that's what they've always done. And they constantly asked me, you know, you're constantly doing something. And I said, yeah, cause I get bored. I got out of teaching science because I felt like I was constrained by a curriculum that I did not want to teach. I wanted to explore and, and have, um. Science my way, and since I wanted science my way, that's why I got into technology, because there was always something new and I didn't have to do the same thing. I think when the teachers learn how to flip that learning. And not flip it in the, in the, you know, that tag word education where we flip it and have videos at home, but flip the learning so that the kids are actually the ones learning and not just, um, trying to be sponges and suck up what you learned. I think you find this, this power to keep yourself wanting to teach. Peter Chan: I've been a, I've been a bit of a lone Wolf, um, with that approach. And, and, um, and it's been, it's been just in the past little while. Um, Mark Tremblay, a fellow who, who works with Linux at the board level, notice what I was doing and a couple of integration aid. Came in and saw what I was doing, and people said, you have to teach this out. So now I've started doing workshops and talking about it and sharing it out. Uh, but previous to three years ago, I thought everybody was working like this. Because to some degree, as teachers, we go into our rooms and, and it's our little Haven. It's our, it's our hideaway. And with, with very few exceptions, you have to, like, I have not seen many of my colleagues in my travels teach. I have not seen them and not many have seen me. And to some degree, I think we would benefit if we saw each other more. Kelly Paredes: That's the benefit of Sean and, um, my job, we get to go into the other classrooms and I've worked in abroad and England and Peru, and there are a lot of people who teach like us. So you're not alone. We're not, we're not lone wolfs and you can reach out and I'll set you up with some people in the PLN, um, but going out and look into other people. For inspiration and using that in the computer science classroom. I think that's a lot of the things that Sean and I try to do. Looking at the way I'm a humanities teacher brings in questioning. We brought that into our computer science. How do you know, how do you learn new things? Um, how do you investigate? How do you, how do you learn what you don't know, kind of aspect. So it's always a benefit to watch other teachers to pick and choose what you want to bring into your computer science classroom. Sean Tibor: Yeah. You know, the other thing that came to mind is you were describing your approach to me was, and I think this crystallized for me in a way that I hadn't really thought of before. Um, but if we define or we measure. Our progress as teachers by how much we can fit into the heads of our students, right? I think we're always going to be disappointed because it's really turns into something where we've got a finite amount of time and we're just trying to stuff as much content or as much skill building as we can into the time that we have and hope that the kids can keep up and get, get through it. All right, so we measure how fast are they acquiring the knowledge and are they going to get all of it done in time and. If you're successful at that, the only way to improve upon it is to cram in more knowledge in the same amount of time or less. Right? So it becomes this. Then you approach a limit pretty quickly to how much you can teach and how much you can cram in before everybody goes crazy. The teacher, the students, the parents, the administration, because it just stops working. Right? But if we change the way we measure it and we changed the way we think about it, so we measure students not by how much or how fast they accomplish tasks, but rather in how far they go. Right. And I think it's a bit of a mindset change, which is when we turn them loose and we say. You can go. You have, you have control. You have the ability to set your own direction and chart your course and then go learn and go as far as you can and see where it takes you. When we measure them by how far they go. And maybe get away from the constraints of the direction. To some extent, we start to see that there are fewer limits and fewer constraints on what's possible for them, how far they can go becomes not something that's bound by the course, but it becomes something that could turn into lifelong learning for them. Kelly Paredes: I see. I, I F I, I can see the teacher's eyes now lighting up going, but how do you know, and I guess for me. So to sum up what you're saying is, I kind of set, and I, and I, and I'm assuming this is probably what you do, Peter, I'm sorry if I assume, but you kind of set this bar, here's this bar, this is my, okay, I got to get this because that's what my standards are. That's what my school says. But for us, I think every time the kids approached the bar, I raise it. And you know, I have kids that are, you know, right there at the bar and that's great. And they've learned a lot and they've come up. To where I want them to be and I'm happy with them. And I have kids that are, you know, maybe at the bar, but they're not really progressing because I just don't have that energy to go further. And then I have this other, you know, kids that are just skyrocketing and, and no two kids are alike, right? So I feel like if we at least have this base level, this standard of achievement, um. And then we just keep raising it. It's kind of bad for them. Sometimes they say, you know, but I'm not done yet. Know why we still have two more weeks. Keep learning. What do you want to learn? And I think that's, that's a good summary of kind of, I don't know what I took from Sean Tibor: it. Yeah. Peter Chan: Well, you, you, you didn't, well, you assumed, right. You assumed. Right. Um, I think the, the trick is to have a bar, but no ceiling. And, um, and then, uh, and then you just have the children have a vehicle by which they too can explore without the idea of a ceiling. And then they end up surprising themselves as well as the teacher is, has, how far they can go. Um, yeah, I find that coding. Um, Python or any, any kind of language really lends itself to that. And it allows, like in the 21st century model of, of learning, which is really more collaborative. Here at the Lester B Pearson school board, we try to use the six CS and one of them is collaboration and citizenship and, and coding covers so much of that because I find when two kids are sitting together working on something, if it's not coding, if it's a worksheet or something traditional, there's, you know, I want to do my own thing. There's, there's not this collaborative, it doesn't lend itself as easily, but coding, I have yet to put any two kids together. Different abilities and um, and have them have a struggle. They love, everybody loves working together when it's coding. And to me that is something special about coding that, um, that lends itself to that model of, of having them have just a bar and no ceiling. Um, yeah, I love the way you can have them work together. Kelly Paredes: He made me laugh because I wrote down here Python, no ceiling. I was like, yes. That's why I feel like I never know anything. no ceiling. Peter Chan: Yeah, that's right. Kelly Paredes: learning. I always feel like a newbie. Every time I turn around, there's another, a real Python book or video, another something. So yeah, but that makes sense to me now. Like. I think that's why that passion for Python has come about is because I, I have, I had this bar, the bar minimum of, okay, that's a newbie. That's an intermediate, and that's a programmer. But there is no ceiling as where you can go with Python, Sean Tibor: you know, or, or any coding language. I don't know Kelly Paredes: that, Sean Tibor: but, but we haven't been in technology careers for years and years and having gone through a lot of formal education in computer science, there's. Always more that you can learn, right? And when you find yourself out on the edges of what's known, that becomes really exciting too, because then you can create things that nobody's seen before. So I think that's the one of the reasons why a lot of people are attracted to things like topics and machine learning, natural language processing, things like that, where you can really push the boundaries of what's possible. Because we're still a young discipline in terms of, of technology. It's not something where we've, you know, explored everything there is to know out there. Kelly Paredes: Absolutely. And we also, we do the tea. We do. Um, we have tons of conversations about that social, emotional aspect of computer science. In fact, um, our episode that's coming out before this one, um, we talked about. The fact that we're not really teaching coders, we're not teaching kids to be programmers. We're actually teaching them so much more. That social, emotional, that's those six CS, collaboration and Peter Chan: Yes. Right. Kelly Paredes: you can do this through this vehicle of coding and you get so much more out of it than just programming. And I say just programming lightly, but it's just amazing the amount of learning that happens from coding. Peter Chan: Well, I, I think that if teachers knew how it could wrap an envelope, all of the other subjects, the language, the writing, uh, I mean, you know, you could, you could just use that print statement and create a wonderful story with just knowing a couple of commands. And you're doing it with collaboration and coding and syntax, uh, just wrapping it up in that, in that syntax and collaboration, it just inspires kids to want to do it. Do, do more. my first talks actually were not on technology. They were on social, emotional learning because now the kids, they develop this harmony, um, and they develop these virtues that just kind of unfold with working together. And, uh, and I'm really proud of, of the way that they are with each other as a result of so much ownership and responsibility. They feel good about themselves. There's less conflict. And, uh, and I can sit here and drink my coffee like I need to, you know, like a good teacher should. Sean Tibor: So, so tell us a little bit about like, how for these students that you have in grade four, how much time do you spend with them in a given day or a given week? Um, to be able to go into some of these topics in more depth and more, um, detail , uh, I mean, I think we all hope for that kind of time and attention with it to be able to get into the topics like social emotional learning in addition to coding. So how much time do you get to spend with these grade four students on a daily or weekly basis covering these topics? Peter Chan: Mmm. I work with a paradigm of layers, Sean, rather than, um, modules of topics. So within the day, I don't divide by day math, English, I have layers that I'm working in. I'll explain what I mean in a moment. Um. I teach two classes. I have small classes this year, each of them 18 students. Uh, and I see, I see each of those kids. Each class I see two and a half days a week. Uh, we make a switch on the Wednesday and, uh, and the other days are full days with, with whichever class I happen to be with. Um. And, uh, and during that time, they all have jobs that we decided at the beginning of every month, uh, ranging from policing each other to, um, to using the technology. I have a technologist position. They're in charge of starting our silent reading. I have social. judges if there's any kind of a conflict, they work it out. Um, I have them judging and assessing what we should do. The menu of the day. They know we have to cover some math. They know we have to do some English. And then I just wrap around coding. Through everything I do. Uh, um, and I'm constantly dealing with virtues. One of the first things I do during the day is I, I have these cards from the virtue project. You can look that up and say, it's a project online, and I give them cards. Each of them has to try to follow and, and be with that virtue represents throughout the day, no matter what they're doing. And, uh, we do that every day so that they just have the language of different virtues. And it's, it's. It's come from the joy of, of coding. It's come from the joy of working together in a decentralized approach. It all lends itself to them owning the day and owning what they're doing. And, uh, at the end of the day, I have my energy, my sanity preserved. Uh, I come back from the day and, and, and I'm constantly, wow. Geez, that really worked out well. I'm so impressed that you did this on your own. Yeah. A little guy today who's been struggling for years with, with academics today came to me and said, Mr. Chan, I, I love coming to school. And, uh, to me that was a, that was a moment for me. And, uh, I know, I know I need to, I need to, when we're done here, write his mom an email and, and just let her know that, uh, that, uh, I think she'd like to know that he had that kind of a day. Finally. Um. So I'm, I'm, I, I don't know if I'm answering you directly, Sean, or if I'm rambling, Sean Tibor: No. That that's really, that's really helpful. I and I, I really like that idea of the longer. Uh, the longer days, right, that, that they still get exposure to other teachers and other teaching styles and other subjects and everything. Um, but one of the things that I've always found interesting about kind of the middle school and high school level is the way we divide everything up into these supposedly discrete subject areas where we say that, that, you know, you've got 42 minutes of English, or you've got 44 minutes of, uh, PE and then 42 minutes of computer science. And we. Maybe take those boundaries of time a bit too, literally in terms of, well, we can only teach computer science during computer science time, and I think that that, that this idea of having. A full day or two and a half days out of the week where you can explore more complex topics and blend them together in a, in a richer way is far more reflective of the working world and the personal world that people are in where you may go from one subject to another or maybe blending a lot of different ideas from different subject areas on a continuous basis. I never had a meeting where we were just doing, you know, coding and we weren't going to talk about business or the why we're doing it or anything like that. It was always blended with something else. Kelly Paredes: Yeah. And I think that holds true with, there's a lot of teachers out there that wish that we could have that, those classroom without walls kind of experience. Where, um, I remember, I actually remember this when I was in This is back in 2000 when I was working in this one school, and I was like, Oh man, what if we could just study watersheds? And I think there was a big educational movement back then where we studied watersheds and we studied watersheds through history, and we looked at it through science and we calculated the square footage of watersheds, and then we did an environmental thing. But that movement in the U S I think lived for about six months. And then people were like, Oh, how can we do that in schools all, we can't grade them. We got to get rid of it. And I, I've always Peter Chan: Yeah. That's such a shame. Kelly Paredes: I know, I know. Peter Chan: can't grade it, don't do it is such a mantra to to destroy potential Kelly Paredes: Yeah, and, but I think Sean and are making our little headway of, we're doing a lot of projects in the classroom where we're trying to take coding in to the classroom and there's a lot of trust that goes involved in, in hand, in hand with that kind of thing where the teacher pretty much has to take a leap of faith. This teacher that doesn't know any coding and say, okay, and we have to tell them, listen, it's coding. It's technology. There might be glitches, and are you okay with that? We can fix it and we'll, there'll be a learning that happens. And, but it is a huge leap of, of, of face that. You get from the teachers and once you get in there and you get to do those coding projects with them, they get hooked. And they see the potential of, of how it's not just science or it's not just math. Uh, we're working on something with, uh, um, world history teacher now trying to do some code with the constitution and having her go through the process of making a flow chart of the constitution. She's just like, Oh my God, this is hard. And I said, and that's the hardest part of coding. putting that project in in words, and um, yeah, it's, it, it's, it would be one of those days where we could just say, okay, listen, we're not going to go to 42 minutes of class. We're actually going to have real life happen and welcome. Let's learn together. Peter Chan: Real life happened. Um, you know, it's, it's, um, I find, I find real life now is we are, there are no teachers. We're all learners. And, and I think our, our. Nomenclature is mistaken. And I really think we need to, um, one of the greatest things I've found that inspires the kids is in the morning I'll come in and I go to pie bites and I'll do, you know, a little pie bite or something. And, uh, then I'll jump on and the kids will come in, the early ones go, Mr. Chan, what are you doing? What are you doing? And now I'm working on Python. I'm writing a little script here that, uh, you know, joins some, some text together. And they're like, Oh, wow. And then I'm learning. They're watching me learn. There has never been a moment where I have more captive an audience. Then when they watch me learn versus watch me teach, I put it in quotes because how much are they learning if they're not inspired to listen. Whereas if I'm learning, they are so engaged and they took away from that that. So as much as I can, I just start doing things. And then they come and they say, what are you doing? And I say, well, I'm learning. I'm reading this, you know, file. I'm reading this digital book, I'm reading, I'm on this website. I'm check, Oh, I want to check it out too. I want, boom. And then it explodes. And then I just take that explosion and I guide it to cover math or English or whatever. But it starts with me always acting like a student, not a teacher. And, and. And I think that's really important. I don't know what the right words are to cover that with theoretical model, but, uh, I, I really think that that is, there's some insight in there. Kelly Paredes: Well, I always do this with Sean. That's the lifelong learner. That's what we call that in education. I always tell this is my mentoring time. I can give any buzzwords you want because I've written it in every session that I've ever presented. I've been doing, um, educational specialists for too many years, so I'm like, we're doing PBL today. Yeah. Whatever you want. I got, I got a name for it. I got an acronym. We go. Sean Tibor: You know, I've recently, I've began framing this with my students in a way that, you know, because I recognize that they, they look to me as having all of this knowledge and all of these skills, and I hear them say, Oh, you know, mr Tibor is an amazing coder. And I, it took me a back for a second because I realized that, yeah, by comparison, like my skills are more advanced. I've been doing it a lot longer. Right. I've been, and that's really the major difference is that I've been doing this longer, and so I started reminding them or start explaining to them, uh, in this way that. They're seeing the version of me now, the 2020 version or the 2019 version of, of my learning and my growth, and they're seeing a snapshot, this like narrow window of where I am right now, but they're not seeing where I was 20 years ago when I was first learning how to code. In this way or 25 or 30 years ago when I was growing up and tinkering with the computer and breaking it and trying to fix it and figuring out what went wrong. They don't see me going through all of that learning and the frustration that I went through to get to this point. So I have to show them, here's me learning new things and here's the things that I'm learning to keep myself growing over time. And I remind them that I am not. Any smarter than they are. Right. In terms of raw intelligence, I'm not any, you know, not better in, in those ways. I've been doing this longer and I've gone through the same exact pain that they're going through trying to understand something or learn something that struggle to learn something new for the first time. I've done that and I keep doing it to keep growing and keep getting better. So to your point, like showing them that we're doing that on a regular basis is really important because it humanizes the experience. It makes it relevant, and it makes it accessible to them. Because if. This is something that their teachers are also learning, right? That we're all learners also, that we're trying to learn new things. It both role models the behavior for them and makes it more accessible to them as something that they can do too. Because it's not just something we're born with or it's not something that's just given to us. We have to go out there and actually try. Kelly Paredes: Yeah. That was, um, was it last week? Two weeks ago? Uh, Sean, let me. Takeover. His class is eighth graders and we did three different challenges in the three different classes and I was showing them how I approach something and I did not know anything that was going on. It was parsing RSS feeds on one, it was doing something else and we completed one out of the three. So one of the classrooms we actually, we actually completed one of the challenges. The other two we didn't they, these are like. 35 40 minute classes and it was, it was shocking for them cause I was trying to show them and showing Sean and the way that I solve a problem, cause the way that I solve the problems completely different than the way he solves a problem. And I was trying to explain to them because I think they had that conversation. He was like, listen, I've been there but like 30 years, 20 years ago I was where you guys were 30 years ago. And I was like, I'll show you how, how I do it and your guys are going to be. I'm surprise, I have to Google every word. I don't know a lot of computer history, you know? So a lot of this stuff, I'm like, what does that mean? And I literally go step by step through the challenge and showed them how I start. And it may be a little bit of a, I don't know, a meandering through the code, but it's a good thing for the kids to see. Peter Chan: I have to say like as much as I've been in technology for most of my life, I remember when I was in grade three, my dad bringing home a Commodore Vic 20 and me thinking, Whoa man, if we made it big. And I remember starting at a young age, but, and I've never really stopped my, my passion for technology. That being said, you know, I listened to your podcast and since your podcast, uh, I think the, the episode where you talked about, um, the microbus, I got a call from a buddy of mine at the board saying, Hey, Pete, would you be interested in a class set of micro bits? I'm like, Oh my gosh, I know what micro bits are. And, uh, you know, and, um, since. Hearing. Yeah. I've checked out ed blocks and um, and a bunch of other resources that were completely foreign to me, and I've been teaching this way for a good 10 years at least. There's just so much to know. I think that. It's just arrogance really, to think that there isn't more to know. You know, like I just, I, I don't know. I just, I just feel that it's humbler. It's, it's, it's more grounded to keep that student within us alive and well, and show that. And like you described guys, it's, it's a, it's, it's more human. Smart Sean Tibor: And, and it's still fun. Like I still feel that thrill of learning something new and figuring something out and solving a problem. It's, it's exciting and I like to be able to show the students that this should be fun, that this is exciting. It's not just. A chore that has to be done, or it's not just a grade that has to get in the grade book, right? This is, this is something that we're learning and the harder it is, the sweeter the victory, Peter Chan: yup, Sean Tibor: The fact that it, when it works and it's something that you worked hard at to get it to work. It is it genuine and authentic sense of accomplishment that you've earned for yourself that nobody else can do for you. Right. We're not at the, we're not in the matrix where you can download knowledge yet. Peter Chan: Nope, not yet, brother. Not yet. Kelly Paredes: So to switch just, just a little, um, any advice for teachers afraid to learn code because we constantly are trying to get. Teachers to start coding. Do you have any advice for teachers? We like to give advice for those out there that are listening and just starting. Peter Chan: Yup. Um, well you've got a bunch of websites there where, you know, like I start all the kids on code.org and uh, and we do that hour. Hour of code, the 15 little levels of whatever it's Minecraft or star Wars themed activities or you know, and um, there are so many websites and I would have them start as a child. I would have them go to code.org and just do something to play around with the blocks, start with scratch and other so many websites that are self guided. And I would have them embrace their fear rather than run away from it. Embrace it and, and say, this is how your children feel. Every time they come to your class for whatever your subject is. Oh my gosh, am I going to do well? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That fear. It's great. It's healthy for you as an adult to experience it, and perhaps this is the only way you're going to, and if the children see you and you actually vocalize it, I'll tell them I suck at art. And I'll say, you know, okay kids, I'm gonna, let's do programming. Let's do some art. Let's use turtle graphics. And I get all stressed out in front of them and I don't know where, what to do with the color and the pen down and like pen out and like, I get all, you know, flustered. I have no design skills. And then the kids rise to the occasion and they help the poor sucker in front of the class, do something positive, let them have that power, let them see you vulnerable. It is the greatest teaching aid. Um, that you have at your disposal. So my advice to your fearful teachers is, is, uh, they are better equipped than somebody who has got coding down Pat. Sorry, Shawn. Um, and, uh, and I really think that that fear mechanism is going to make them more relatable. And when they're relatable, they inspire. Kelly Paredes: Yeah, you should have saw me speaking Spanish the other day. I was getting corrected by the native speakers. They asked me to cover the course, and I walked in and I started speaking Spanish and they're like, it's . And I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry. No, I agree. Sean Tibor: It's the, it's that same, same advice. And, and you know, for me it's maybe not coding, but it's definitely teaching, like do something that scares you. Do something that puts you out beyond your comfort zone, over the tips of your skis. And, and that's where your real learning is going to happen, where you're going to grow the most when it's something that is a risk and something that scares you, not the things that you're comfortable with or that you've been doing for 20 years. Peter Chan: That's not learning. Okay. Kelly Paredes: Here's my other question. Favorite library. Do you in Python? Do you have a Peter Chan: Um, you saw my Kelly Paredes: see. I'd have to see what type Peter Chan: Yeah, that's right. So Kelly Paredes: like Sean, are you more like me? Peter Chan: I'm more like you, Kelly with Python. I'm more like you. I'm, I'm still learning, like, like, you know, like your, even your question. I'm like, what? Like, um, so, um, I, I have played around with 'em because of, uh. What's the book there that I started with again? Um, how to automate the boring stuff. I like that. Pie. Excel, um, library. Uh, I really think that's powerful. Uh, there's a lot of, uh, spreadsheets that are. You know, easily printed or, or derived from software, but, but then what you can do with them is limited by that software to simply having that spreadsheet. And suddenly, if it creates a spreadsheet, poof, Python opens up the world to what you can do with that. Like Sean was discussing in the beginning there with all of his, his sports scores and charts and teams and whatnot. So, um, I have to say, I really like the fact that we can jump into, um, I'm interested, and I don't know if it's. If it's on air that we put it. But I'm really interested in learning. Sean, how you got the Google sheets online sheets involved, what that was, cause I've been doing some YouTubing to try to find that as a tutorial and it, it scares me. Kelly. There we go back to my fear. Sean Tibor: So, um, I'll, I'll put, I'll put some links out there. Um, but the short answer is there's two libraries that work really well for this. One is Py, G sheets, and you can install it from pie pie. Uh, the other one is easy, I think it's called easy sheets, but I have here next to me the brand new second edition of automate the boring stuff, which has a whole chapter. On, on the easy sheets or connecting to a Google sheets in the book. And I'll put the link to the online version because I'm, Al has updated his online, uh, creative commons version of automate the boring stuff to include those chapters. So he's got some really good stuff in there for working with Google sheets online. Kelly Paredes: Nice. And I'm going to direct you as, as a, as a math person, I think. And I feel. It's the easiest library, at least for a newbie person, is the map plot lib the kids. Um, for me, that one, I tell the kids I love this library. And they're like, why? And I was like, cause I understand it. So it's one of those things you just open up. And I have beautiful graphs and, and Sean, we were doing, um. Tables as well with tabulate in a numerate, and I can just see little fourth-graders when they put their their bar chart in in a Python graph and they count the people in their classroom. Or you know how, how tall everyone is. I think you'll, if you, we did one where we just. We put the code in and then they just manipulated the X and Y axes. And it was such an, I did that with sixth graders. Sure. The fourth graders could easily take it. Sean Tibor: And so now you connect the two, right? So you bring connect the Google sheets so you can have a shared sheet with everyone out there, putting all your students, putting in their own data and updating it, and then watching the code update on that plot lib. And we want Peter Chan: That's really cool. It's, it's just really cool. The Python and what it does for, for just creation is just really cool. Um, can I throw in a, um, a resource back at you guys. Kelly Paredes: Sure. Peter Chan: It's a humble, humble bundle. I don't think you've ever mentioned it in a podcast, but that's what got me started in Python. It's this, uh, charitable, uh, it's, it's a for profit organization, but you can get, you can get reams and reams of, of books for very little down to $1. And, uh, all of that money that goes to charity. And, um, and they often, not always, but they often have resources for coding, programming and specifically Python. Sean Tibor: Yeah, I've, I've followed them for a few years and, and some of my favorite bundles that they've done have been look either a Python bundle. So, um, several of the, the Python content creators have worked together to create a humble bundle for that. The no starch frequently does a humble bundle. Yeah. Um, and then also a lot of the ones that are kind of related to Python. So if you see a bundle about Linux systems administration or bash scripting or things that are useful to do in alongside Python, um, I would definitely keep an eye out for those as well. And I often will find myself, you know, picking up a bundle where I really want two or three of the books, but I ended up getting like 10 more for basically nothing. And I'm, it's really exciting to have them all. Kelly Paredes: Yeah, he got, he got me hooked and we supported a couple of our friends out there and they're humble bundle and yeah, so I'm trying to avoid the site because I spend way too much money if the school's not paying for it. It's kind of hard, you know, because we Peter Chan: just put in, I just put in a request to them to see if they could, because there's a lot of kids' books now on coding and a, and no starch press has a few. And, uh, so I, I asked them, is it possible to get a humble bundle that's aimed specifically at younger. Younger audience. Uh, it would also get them to have a receptive audience, perhaps for much longer than if they start participating when they're young and a dollar. I mean, some of these humble bundles, you can start it with a dollar, which is within the reach of an elementary school child. Sean Tibor: That's true. So, Peter, we might have to have you back on at some point. Cause I know that there are a lot of Python programmers who are interested in teaching coding to their own children. And so to pair that at the time that there's a resource available to pick up some of these coding books and cover a spectrum of ages from kind of that grade three, grade four up through middle school, when it's such a rich time to teach coding, maybe that's something we could do as a, as a combined episode where we talk about, um. You know how to teach your own kids or provide them opportunities to learn coding at home if your school doesn't offer it. Peter Chan: I'd love to join guys. Sean Tibor: That'd be great. We'd love to have you. I think we're gonna, we're gonna wrap up here cause we're, we're coming up on an hour recording. It goes by quickly when we have such a great guest to talk with. Uh, so Peter, thank you for, thank you for joining us. It's been really a pleasure to talk with you and learn about, um, how grade four learns Python and how you learn Python. So, um, we'll hopefully have you back at some point soon to talk about other teaching methods and other learning. Um, and we'll wrap up here. Peter Chan: Thank you guys. This has been a real treat. Kelly Paredes: Thank you for coming Sean Tibor: so for teaching Python, this is Sean, Kelly Paredes: and this is Kelly Sean Tibor: signing off.