Really Specific Stories: Michael Furstenberg Duration: 00:34:03 SPEAKERS Michael Furstenberg, Martin Feld [Please note: I removed the umlaut from the u in Michael's name in the plain-text version of the transcript to avoid having a range of confusing special characters take its place.] Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you so much for participating in Really Specific Stories, Michael, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Michael Furstenberg 00:27 Thank you. It's nice to be here as well. I mean, I've spoken to you on Discord many times. But yeah, first time face to face over the Internet, that is. Martin Feld 00:38 Yeah, it's nice. I've said it to people before, it's always a bit weird when you finally come face to face with someone you've had text messages in some form or another for a while. So, to start this conversation, I want to ask a question of you about your podcasting experience and that is: how did you first get into podcasts? Michael Furstenberg 00:58 Oh, that's a really good question because I can remember downloading audio files way back. I don't even know if it was distributed over RSS at the time. But I would download these, basically radio shows, right, that they would digitise and put online. I would download them and put them on my... I had a Sony Ericsson phone that could run Java and it could also play MP3 files. So yeah, that's sort of how I got started and then eventually, everything became its own apps over RSS. And yeah, I don't know if m, I'm guessing Apple didn't start with the podcasting name. Uh, I can't remember who did. But, yeah... been listening to podcasts for a long time. Martin Feld 01:50 With those early audio files that you noted... Michael Furstenberg 01:53 Yeah? Martin Feld 01:54 What sort of content was it? What kinds of show were you listening to? Michael Furstenberg 01:58 Uh, was different kinds of show. I mean, the broadcaster here, no way, they would actually take some of their radio shows with music and everything and just put them online. That was kind of just for test, I think, but I mean, I'm guessing they do similarly, everything that BBC does, they tried to do a bit later. So uh, BBC had probably tested something like that, so they wanted to copy it. But I also remember early on there were what you would call, I think, 'tech shows' we would say today, right? Like a single guy talking about some tech story. I'm a developer, so it was probably developer-related, I would say, but there were also people just talking about their daily lives, which was very different, really, to, to what you usually heard on the radio, which was interesting. Martin Feld 02:50 And what did you enjoy about this on-demand format or the fact that you in downloading this stuff? Michael Furstenberg 02:55 Well, at the time, I had a quite long commute, so the ability for me to I mean, I was already listening to music, on the commute, but the ability to listen to these when I wanted during the commute. That was yeah, I liked that. Still like that. Martin Feld 03:13 And what do you still like about it today? What, why has it continued for you? Michael Furstenberg 03:17 I mean, the ability to uh, to be able to listen to a show when I have the time to listen to a show. I mean, I might listen to a podcast while doing dishes or going for a walk. I mean, I try to do a walk or a run every evening and that's always podcast time. So yeah... Martin Feld 03:39 So the early days were really about on-demand convenience, fitting into different times of your life. And this point about being a developer—now, I know nothing about development, other than what it basically is. Can you tell me about maybe your work as a developer and how that has informed what you find interesting in your shows? Michael Furstenberg 04:00 Well, I work as a web developer, I work at the company where we create a product for the school and sort of learning space: edtech. And being a developer, at least in sort of, go back 20 years, there were a lot of blogs that would uh sort of discuss problems you might have, different issues. It would present solutions. But it was a different thing to sort of hear people (I don't know), maybe, maybe argue about how to solve something or talk about, 'You know what? I tried to do this and this, and it never works for me; how do you all solve it?', and sort of requesting feedback from sort of the listeners. And at the time I had... sort of the company I worked for at the time then here in Norway. It was just a couple of developers. We were spread around Norway, Germany, England, US, so very often I wouldn't have that many to sort of discuss topics with because or at least not sort of talking to it because it would just be messenger or email back in those days, and writing a discussion sort of around this, it can take time. So it, sort of listening to other people just talking about this, uh it felt sort of like, you got someone else sort of uh with you all the time. I think it's kind of similar to the feeling that so many people listening to podcasts, like listening to something like me Hemispheric Views, where, after a while, you start to kind of think 'I know these people', even though you don't, right? I mean, I've been listening to some people for 10, 15 years. And you sort of think, 'Well, I know them'—no, you know one side of them, sort of the podcasting side, but still, that kind of makes you think that, 'Yeah, I know these guys'. Because yeah, it's mostly guys, right? It's become a little bit better the last five years with more women, especially in the tech podcasts I've listened to but yeah. Martin Feld 06:19 Yeah, you're right. There's certainly a need for better diversity in the genre. I think you've hit a good point there. You just said then, that you've listened to some shows for 10 to 15 years. That's a big commitment. What are some of those shows or who were some of those people that you've listened to over the over time or really had a connection with? Michael Fürstenberg 06:38 So really early on, uh, I started listening to The Talk Show, 5by5 was an early sort of go-to place for tech podcasts. And at 5by5 you had both the podcasts Hypercritical with John Siracusa and Build and Analyze with Marco Arment. As a Apple fan, I guess, both of those appealed to me. I mean, former programmers, current programmers, I think a lot of people who started to listen to them at those shows, just moved straight on to ATP today, right? So that's some of them. Also shows by Merlin Mann, again at 5by5, later at Relay. So yeah, those are some of the people I've listened to for a long time. So also some radio broadcasts sort of from the broadcaster here in Norway. There are people that, I mean, one of them, I can remember listening to late '70s. And he just retired last year. And I've been listening to his radio show every week since. Martin Feld 07:48 Wow. Michael Furstenberg 07:49 It's a music-related show, though. Uh but yeah, I would always download that podcast and listen to it. Martin Feld 07:57 Now, I know very little about Norwegian broadcasting, which I think you could probably guess. Um what would you say are some of the major differences in the content that you listen to between things, maybe from the English-speaking sphere, or the US? You mentioned ATP, The Talk Show and so on, and the tech-related or even other topical stuff from Norway. What are the differences? Michael Furstenberg 08:21 So the differences would mainly be I listened to a lot of music and news show from the national broadcaster. Martin Feld 08:30 Mm-hmm... Michael Fürstenberg 08:31 They have sort of like these daily, keep-up-to-date, like 5, 10 minutes show, with just the headlines; that and they have a lot of music shows actually, that I listen to. It's a bit, a bit different now than it used to be because they can't actually include all the music as they once could, became too expensive. But I still listen to the shows for the discussions. So that would probably be the main difference. Martin Feld 08:59 So it's a difference in, uh, really the formats of the show that you're listening to. Michael Fürstenberg 09:04 That's amazing that they can get that much into an hour out of one song. Michael Furstenberg 09:04 Yeah, based in also topic, a lot of the Norwegian shows, at least the music shows would be a lot of talk around, maybe a specific artist or a specific song. And they would sort of play maybe like a 20-second clip from one of the songs they're discussing. And I think I mentioned before, uh, I have a great love for the band Iron Maiden. And there's a podcast, where each week uh some musician go on show and they discuss one song by Iron Maiden. So they spend typically an hour, hour-and-a-half just talking about one song, dissecting it in every way. And as a Maiden fan, I love that. Michael Furstenberg 09:49 I mean, they also try to vary like you might have a drummer one week, right? And he, he will sort of, of course, focus on all the drums and stuff. And the next week, there might be a vocalist, and they, they all have different things to, to sort of add to, to the discussion. Martin Feld 10:14 Now, you're listening to these shows as podcasts as well, the music ones? Michael Furstenberg 10:19 Mainly as podcasts, actually, yeah, again, the time-shifting aspect of it. Martin Feld 10:24 So that's important, too. You want to be able to have control of how you listen to it. Is that what you're saying? Michael Furstenberg 10:28 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I stopped watching like regular TV, I stopped watching that in 2001, because there was enough sort of content available over streaming here in Norway that I could get sort of daily news, just by streaming. All my media consumption is uh time-shifted, I guess, or on-demand. Martin Feld 10:53 So podcasts across genres have this same time-shifting ability, or very similar technological advantages. Do you see much crossover in your fandoms or your passions for music and technology, or are they separate worlds for you? Michael Furstenberg 11:12 That's mixed, I guess, because I have friends I grew up with, who are sort of fans who belong to both groups, sort of, but then I also have friends that are clearly in separate groups, right? So it's a bit of both, but I think a lot of people like music, right? So you might listening to a tech show, and there will be music discussions, right? So, and also a lot of the uh... like the show I mentioned with uh Iron Maiden, where they dissect that: typically the guys and girls, they're uh, they're my age or older, right? Even though they have lots of young fans, uh probably older guys, and from time to time, they will sort of go like, 'Oh, yeah, I remember sitting in my bedroom. uh I was either listening to Iron Maiden, or was playing on my Commodore 64'. Sort of, and then they might go on a tangent on the best games some Commodore 64, right. There's a lot of nerdery going on there as well. Martin Feld 12:16 That's good, so you feel right at home as a self-proclaimed nerd? Michael Fürstenberg 12:20 Yeah, yeah, I think so, I mean, I was actually mentioned on that show once... Martin Feld 12:25 Oh great! Martin Feld 12:25 A friend of mine, who is the music-... musician, he was on the show, and he'd sort of say, 'Well, I was growing up with these two guys and we were always, either play computer or listening to music, or do both'. And, yeah, there is a mix of that, of course. Martin Feld 12:40 So what do you enjoy particularly about Iron Maiden, as a band and as a topic to listen to on this podcast? Michael Furstenberg 12:47 It's a band my, my dad got me to listen to as a kid. I mean, all his music, I basically just consumed all of it and made it mine. And, yeah, from the early on, the lyrics, uh the music itself, of course, the artwork on their albums, there was something different, uh... And I mean, they never, I never stopped sort of caring about the music they made, uh... The '90s were a bit troublesome for a lot of metal bands and so for them as well. Uh, but yeah, I mean, now they're closing in on 70. They still make great music. Last week, they had a killer concert in Oslo. So yeah, I mean, I don't really know what to say, uh... Martin Feld 13:38 No, no, that's really interesting. Michael Furstenberg 13:39 Oh, yeah. It's sort of, it was just love at first listen, I guess. It was just: 'Yes, this is my kind of music'. Martin Feld 13:47 Yeah, and it's persisted today. And I think it's really nice, what you mentioned about communicating with people of different ages, who are all... Michael Furstenberg 13:53 Yes. Martin Feld 13:54 ...fans the same thing. Michael Fürstenberg  13:55 Yeah. I mean, my dad really liked them, uh got me to listen to them early '80. And when you go to a concert, like last week, you would definitely see people like at my dad's age, people like my age. And a lot of people my age brought their kids. So you, yeah. So, a lot of 10-,15-year-old kids there as well. Think that's kind of cool that these old guys at 70 can appeal to kids as well. Martin Feld 14:24 No, I think that's lovely. So you've described how your dad transmitted that musical interest to you... Michael Furstenberg 14:30 Oh definitely! Martin Feld 14:31 ...and then you see the same thing happening around yourself or maybe in your own family. That, that's great. So on that point about talking to different people about what you're passionate about, whether it's these music podcasts you're talking about or the tech podcasts, how do you feel communicating to other fans in person or online? How does that work for you? Michael Furstenberg 14:52 I mean, I have been online for a very long time. Um, so I'm no stranger to sort of participating in discussion forums or chat systems, things like that. And several of the, at least the tech podcasts often have like a Discord or something similar set up where there is a discussion and I do participate in some of them. Of course, there's always too many Slacks and too many Discords, so uh you have to prioritise. But I think, uh some of the tech podcaster, they've sort of, they've been people that's been to, to Norway and sort of like, 'Well, I'm going to be here and here; if anyone wants to join up and have a coffee or grab a beer, please do, right?' And I participated in that, and uh, that is fun meeting someone face to face—always better than just listening! Martin Feld 15:48 And no pressure, you don't have to name names, but do you have any examples of maybe people from certain shows whom you've met if they came to Norway? Michael Furstenberg 15:56 Nothing famous, you would have listened to. Martin Feld 15:58 Oh, that's fine! Michael Furstenberg 15:59 No, um... I've only been once, it's a bit embarrassing, can't even remember his name now. But... Martin Feld 16:07 That's fine! Michael Furstenberg 16:08 ...yeah, but he was fun. We uh, we had beers. There were about seven, eight people there. And yeah, it's nice. Martin Feld 16:16 No that's cool, and no worries for forgetting the name. You must be following a lot of different uh, podcasts and Slacks and Discords, like you said. So which shows would you say that you're the most active with these days? Michael Furstenberg 16:29 Uh, most active with must be Hemispheric Views—yes, it has to be. Martin Feld 16:35 Oh really? Michael Furstenberg 16:36 Yeah! Martin Feld 16:36 Oh I didn't actually expect that, but go on. Michael Furstenberg 16:40 I'm in the Discord every day, right? Uh also uh, I used to be fairly sort of frequent in the Six Colors and over at Relay, but most of that is just, there's so many people, there's so much discussions going on that it's hard to follow much of it these days. I'm mostly active on uh, on a Discord that's programming-related. That and I mean, Svelte Radio is the connected uh, podcast there. Martin Feld  17:18 Did you say, 'Svelte Radio', is that what you said? Michael Furstenberg  17:21 Svelte Radio is the name of the podcast, and they have a, they have a Discord connected to it. And of course, they are cheating a bit because they're closely associated with sort of, the official Discord of uh, of the same sort of, of, of the JavaScript framework called Svelte. So yeah, but I'm active there, uh... Martin Feld 17:45 So would you say that you get different things from different communities? Michael Furstenberg 17:49 Yeah, I mean, at least on uh, on your lovely Discord. I mean, that's sort of like, regular people, talking about their regular life and also having sort of, yeah, I mean, it's regular stuff, right? Uh, on many of the, at least the programming Discords, that will be pretty much programming-related, people asking a question, people answering and stuff like that, it's very focused towards issues, I guess, or suggestions for improvements. And I tend to sort of, I participate there, because helping other people with their questions makes me better. At work, I will sort of regularly have new people come in that don't know the system that I will have to train, and regularly helping people helps me then also at work. Uh, but it's nice to have some places where it's sort of like, cosy, I think? Yeah. Martin Feld 18:53 You feel like, you know, people in a way or how would you describe the relationship? Michael Furstenberg 18:57 In a way, but it also that people talk about regular stuff, right? And it's sort of like, it brings it closer, sort of, if you're in a, if you're in a Discord where it's highly sort of focused on on a specific topic, it typically, there's very little of sort of a private life sort of mentioned there, right? But I like sort of mentioning stuff that happens, whether it's something one of the kids did or whatever, I mean, and that's a that's a sort of, I like to have both environments, really. Martin Feld 19:38 So you can kind of move depending on what it is you want to talk about or how you're feeling. Michael Furstenberg 19:42 Yeah, absolutely. Martin Feld 19:44 Just on what you were saying then talking to people about regular stuff in our Discord with Hemispheric Views, basically, most of the people in that chat, I suppose are representative of podcasting in general, which is mainly English-speaking people from the US or similar countries like the UK or Australia. Being in Australia, I know that we're somewhat separate from the US, although we're kind of culturally similar. What's it like for you being in Norway? Obviously, you speak English very well, but you come from a different language group and a different culture. How do you feel listening to and talking to people who are from perhaps the majority group of stereotypical podcasting? Michael Furstenberg 20:30 Um, I think, coming from Europe in general, uh, it's often kind of strange to, especially to listen to American podcasts and discussions there, because I mean, US is uh, there's something uh... how should I phrase this without sort of making every American hate me? Uh... they could do better. I mean, talking about politics and stuff like that. And often, there's, there's a phrase in, in Europe, of sort of the 'ignorant American'. And I have to say, like, like reading something like Daring Fireball, where John Gruber talks about stuff in Europe, often I will agree with him maybe on a point. But it also comes across as very ignorant often, of how things actually are in Europe. And, and I think that's the biggest difference. I mean, I don't mind a US-centric podcast to sort of talk about the stuff like 'US is the only country there is', right? You're used to that. And I mean, here in Norway, so much of the things we consume are stuff made either in England, BBC, iTV stuff like that, or US-based. So, it's not something new for us, right? So much of our culture has been influenced by US, like, I think most of Western Europe, really. Martin Feld 22:01 So it's an interesting point. So you're not saying ignorant as in, uh, a personal label? It's really just anyone talking about something... Michael Furstenberg 22:09 Yeah. Martin Feld 22:10 ...from the outside? Michael Furstenberg 22:11 I'm very ignorant about lots of stuff in the US as well, I'm sure of it. That's not it. It's just that when you meet Americans on holiday in Europe, they have a way of acting like they know best at all times. And, of course, I know that not everyone does this, right? Martin Feld 22:31 Of course. Michael Furstenberg 22:31 But it's sort of like, it's a meme, right? It's the stereotypical American on on holiday in Europe. And some of that I feel, you sometimes can hear in podcasts as well and sort of related, whether it be blog posts or discussions that's in Discord and stuff like that, sometimes they come across as, 'Oh, it's always like this'. When you get to Europe, it's not. But yeah! Martin Feld 23:03 It's a valuable assessment that you make, because even though you don't want to generalise about everyone, and Australia isn't 100 per cent like the US, as an Australian speaking English very comfortably on a podcast, which may be listened to by people elsewhere in the world who have English as a second language, I know that I'm very aware about different things that I might say or assumptions that I might make. So, I think you're right, that it's very important that you need to be respectful, or maybe admit that you don't always know everything. Michael Furstenberg 23:34 Yeah, and it has to be said, of course, that many of the podcasts I listen to have improved a lot in in that sense. I mean, probably a lot of Europeans have hammered their email for quite a long time. Uh, because they typically, this is, of course, how it is in US. We know it's different elsewhere and all of that. So yeah, so it is better now than let's say five years ago. Martin Feld 23:59 Now, here's a question for you and be brutally honest; you are the participant in this. It's your opinion, I'm after, when you listen to something like Hemispheric Views, where the hosts are three white males... Michael Fürstenberg 24:13 Mmm... Martin Feld 24:13 ...still very stereotypical, but there is some difference between the American and the two Australian hosts. Do you perceive much of a difference between those two groups. Or being separate in Europe, as you said, is it kind of the same for you? Michael Furstenberg 24:29 I think it mostly relates to, to branding. Martin Feld 24:32 Mmm... Michael Furstenberg 24:33 Because if a brand name is mentioned, by Jason, the likelihood of me hearing about it is very, very high. Your brands... not so much. Uh... and I don't know that is because sometimes you might have links to Wikipedia or something, right? (Or an image of something.) And when I see it, it's kind of interesting because oh, we have that here as well, but here, it's called something else, right? And I mean, with these large corporations owning so much of the goods today, it's just the same product with different brand names. So yeah... and also, of course, I think there's less despair in things you say, than Jason. And I mean, back to some of the political situation in US, I get that. And also, uh... like Andrew mentioned recently about... was it the Prime Minister, who was just taking a walk in a park without a lot of sort of security around it? That, of course, is similar to how it would be in Norway as well, right? I mean, if you look closely, you can see the two big guys following the Prime Minister, right? But yeah, it's not something... he'll, he can jump on a bus if he wants, and uh, it will be fine, right? I don't imagine the President of the US could do the same. Martin Feld 26:03 No, not without a big entourage! Michael Furstenberg 26:04 No. Martin Feld 26:04 That's for sure. Michael Furstenberg 26:05 Planned months ahead. Martin Feld 26:07 Oh, yeah. Yeah, with a media opportunity, I'm sure. Now, broadly, in your podcasting experience, is there's something that I haven't asked you about, or that you would like to explore or explain? And that could be, technologically speaking, uh the different media that you consume... your preferences? What's something that's important to you? Michael Fürstenberg 26:29 I think I realised the other day, uh when I was going through my podcast player, that: I don't think I listen to anything sort of mainstream—typically sort of these very small or independent podcasts. I think I have something like 50, 60 podcasts that I subscribe to. Martin Feld 26:51 Wow. Michael Furstenberg 26:51 And of those, it's about, I mean, you could say, of course, that the 10 or so podcasts from the national broadcaster, they would be pretty mainstream, right? Uh, especially in the news show. But I mean, the rest of them is, I mean, I think some of them, if they have more than 100 listeners, I would be uh... surprised. So, I think that's the the main difference. And, and so many of the sort of mainstream shows, I'm just not into. I think that's maybe what I realised that, for me, the smaller shows are typically the most interesting.   Martin Feld 27:33 And when you say the smaller shows are more interesting, is that due to purely the niche topics that they're talking about, or is it also something to do with the way that they're made? Or what would you say? What's the difference? Michael Furstenberg 27:49 It's many aspects, I think, I mean, you have the uh, you have the closeness often to, to the people who made it, right? You might have sort of discussed something with them online, or it's also many of them, no ads. And I mean, ads, ads a fine, right? But at least if you listen to tech shows, I was one of the ones that immediately bought sort of a membership to uh, to skip ads right, and so many podcasts, because I'm so sick and tired of ads. And I think also, a couple of years back, I started to go through, OK, I listen to a lot of podcasts by white guys. Maybe I should try to, to listen to some other voices. So I specifically sort of started to look for people of colour, women... to sort of listen to other voices really. I started listening also to a podcast, uh... oh what's it called? Alex Cox and her partner, where they discuss her partner sort of went through a life change, uh and sort of that was a really different experience listening to someone talking about how they sort of discovered that they were trans and yeah, the life-altering changes that has to involve. It was sort of interesting, painful, uh wonderful, and yeah! Martin Feld 29:26 So hearing that personal story had an effect on you? Michael Furstenberg 29:29 Yeah, absolutely. Martin Feld 29:30 Yeah, that's fascinating. And when you were looking for these other podcasts, like the one you mentioned with, with Alex Cox and her partner, did you find that to find people of colour or with different viewpoints, you could actually find them within the technological genre, or you had to go outside of that mainly? Michael Furstenberg 29:48 I could find them, uh, in the text genre as well. Uh, I typically started to go look at Twitter. There were black developers, there were women who sort of mentioned stuff that they listen to? And I just picked a couple of them and yeah, some of them are still around and some of them not. Martin Feld 30:11 I suppose as a maybe a final question (unless there is more that you want to say): other than greater diversity in podcasting, is there something that you would like to see develop or improve in podcasting's future? Michael Furstenberg 30:24 Not include bitcoin mining? No, uh... What was it called RSS two point, no... Podcasting 2.0, including bitcoins? No. I mean, I personally are very happy with the current podcast landscape, at least from a tech side, right? How I sort of download them and get them... but I mean, installing Overcast on my wife's phone, she was kind of lost, right? She immediately jumped back to the Apple Podcasts player, because there were bigger, flashier graphics and stuff like that. And maybe sort of, I think it's very easy to get a lot of ads for all the big sort of mainstream shows when you're there. And uh, I think it will be a good thing, if uh they also sort of broaden their perspective a bit. I'm sure that they are much better now than uh, they were previously. At least Apple has, it seems like they've added a lot of people to the curation there, so... Martin Feld 30:29 So is it fair to say discovery, enhanced discovery is what you would like? Michael Furstenberg 31:35 Yeah uh, and I mean, personally, I think discovery works OK for me, because it's a lot of word of mouth, sort of. It might be people at work, or people in some of the online uh arenas I'm on, who sort of mention it, so. So I, I have too many podcasts to be honest already, right? So I don't need any more, but still, I do sort of click that subscribe button from time to time still. But I think for a lot of people like my wife, she finds discovery difficult, like, she might listen to true crime podcasts. 'Oh, this was fun! Are there more?' And I think, uh, I'm sure. Martin Feld 32:20 Yep! Michael Furstenberg 32:21 But yeah, some, I don't know, you have sort of a... YouTube is really good at suggesting new stuff for you to keep you glued to the screen, right? (Maybe the same with Netflix and stuff like that.) I think, for some people, I think could be beneficial to uh, to have something like that built in. Martin Feld 32:42 No, it's a great point, and I suppose that kind of reflects your enthusiasm for the technology as to how far you go into it or how familiar you are with different interfaces or discovering things. That's really fascinating. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention about your podcasting experience before we wrap up? Michael Furstenberg 32:59 I can't think of anything. I mean, to begin with, I was kind of surprised when I when I saw your interview suggestion... Martin Feld 33:09 Mmm? Michael Furstenberg 33:10 ...because, oh, yeah, podcasting! Yeah I do listen to a lot of podcasts, and I guess to some people, maybe not me, but some people, I'm sure have interesting things to say about podcasts. Martin Feld 33:22 Given how many podcasts you listen to, and uh the amount of experience you have over time subscribing to them, I think I found one of the right people to talk to. Michael Furstenberg 33:30 Uh, I don't know. Martin Feld 33:31 But look, um, if you're comfortable to stop there, we can wrap up? Michael Furstenberg 33:34 Yep. Martin Feld 33:35 Perfect, alright, so. Michael, it's been really great to chat to you. Michael Furstenberg 33:39 Likewise! Martin Feld 33:39 And thank you for sharing your time with me on Really Specific Stories. And uh, I'll see you back in the Discord obviously. Michael Furstenberg 33:45 Obviously! Martin Feld 33:46 Thanks for your time.