Really Specific Stories: Leon Mika Duration: 31:59 SPEAKERS Martin Feld, Leon Mika Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you, Leon, for joining Really Specific Stories; it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Leon Mika 00:25 Oh, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here! Martin Feld 00:27 Now, since I gathered before we started recording that you've listened to some episodes before, you know which questions coming, and that first one is: how did you get into podcasts? Leon Mika 00:35 I'm probably one of the later people to have actually gotten into podcasts—I feel from the other guests that you've had—2015 was my first experience with podcasts. Since then, I've been quite a big follower of the technical blogs like Daring Fireball. And I sort of got a sense of what a podcast was, but I never actually got to the point of actually listening to one myself. And it was probably one day at work, things were a bit quiet and I actually saw an article for um, a Planet Money podcast, um and then decided to sort of get, give it a try, see what it was like. I started listening to it and I just got hooked to the medium, basically. And I started going through a bit of a back catalogue of what of Planet Money at the points. And from that point, I discovered that, oh, Daring Fireball has also got a podcast. And from there, I sort of started discovering shows on the Apple technical sort of podcasts, so moving on to there, to ATP, and eventually Relay and a bunch of other shows from that point on. And it's been that way ever since, I guess. Martin Feld 01:52 So well-entrenched in tech podcasts now. Leon Mika 01:55 Yes. Martin Feld 01:55 Gotcha. I'm interested in that time before podcasts. You said 2015; that was the date? Leon Mika 02:02 Yeah. Martin Feld 02:02 Yeah. To my understanding you're, you're interested and involved in technology; that's also your career background as well? You work with technology? Leon Mika 02:10 Yep, that's correct. Martin Feld 02:11 So if you weren't involved in podcasts as a listener or a fan, in any sense, until 2015—which is cool, we all discover them at different times—what sort of media were you consuming about technology prior to podcasts? Leon Mika 02:25 It was, it was mainly blogs at the time, a lot of Apple-related blogs, which was a bit strange for the time, because I wasn't actually an Apple user; I was actually quite happy using Linux and Android, so it felt a bit strange, being a non-Apple user consuming this Apple news. And that's probably the reason why I sort of got into podcasts late as well. I mean, I was aware of the medium, but not having an iPod myself, I never had actually experienced listening to a podcast until the 2015, at that time. It's mainly been blogs since then. Martin Feld 03:05 That's an interesting shift. So, tell me about your experience as a Linux and Android user and what was it in reading these blogs or engaging with different products that made you switch to that Apple ecosystem? How did that happen? Leon Mika 03:18 I guess it was... probably again in the sense of trying something different. And I think starting the act of listening to podcasts sort of accelerated that. Having hosts discuss new releases of Apple software, how the user experience is and how it could be better piqued my interest in such sort of software. And knowing that they more or less take, they take stock of how the usability of such software is—not to say that Linux wasn't usable at the time—but I felt it was probably good sense to try something different at the time, I'd say. Martin Feld 03:57 And what was it about the writing of these blogs and these posts that piqued your interest, as you say? Leon Mika 04:07 Probably, I guess a good way to describe it is that they took a very critical eye to such designs. They weren't afraid to sort of break down the approach of how Apple would choose to build products and critique it, see where the rough edges are and compare it to the historical signs that Apple would actually go about designing such software in the past, and maybe even also discussing the story of how such software actually got designed. And that probably also helped when I started listening to podcasts at the time as well, sort of getting a sense of the story behind the software and the design, why such choices were made at that time. Martin Feld 04:52 So these days, are you still a Linux and Android user in a sense, or are you more entrenched on the Apple side? Leon Mika 04:57 Oh, I'm all in on Apple now. Martin Feld 05:00 No turning back? Leon Mika 05:02 Ahhh... not likely, no. Martin Feld 05:03 Not likely... no worries, well, I'm a fan, so that's fine with me. I'm not sure about all listeners, but I'm sure they can write in or, or comment online if they disagree. Before I lose that point about that first podcast you ever listened to, Planet Money—I haven't listened to that personally, so can you tell me about that show, how it captured your interest at first and what you got from it? Leon Mika 05:23 Well, I can probably remember the topic of the first show that sort of captured my interest. It was a discussion around how negotiators go about the process of formulating their policy decisions, when it comes time to sort of engage with other countries. I think at the time, I was on a bit of a kick of political, yeah, I was listening to some political topics at the time, something that felt quite relevant to me, and the fact that, you know, it was probably... yeah, how would I describe it? It was basically telling the story of how such career would work, and how the types of trade-offs they would make in such a process, and how they consider that and how that might be taken in by the public at large. Martin Feld 06:20 Mmm-hmmm, mmm-hmmm... Leon Mika 06:20 That was sort of the topic and that's sort of what grabbed me about that. Martin Feld 06:24 And from there, you were listening to it in what sort of context? How did you find yourself listening to podcasts? Leon Mika 06:30 Well, so I started listening to it at work. I think a mixture of maybe doing something that was slightly dull at the time and trying to get a bit of stimulus while I was working at the time. Um, also a slight change of lifestyle as well, I moved out and are sort of living alone and to sort of have, like, a second voice to sort of listen to at the time, doing the sort of mundane work, and that's pretty much how I listen to podcasts now: it's doing the dishes at the gym, the things we, the times in the day where you can sort of do something mundane and your brain engage with what you're listening to. Martin Feld 07:07 I really liked the way you put that as a second voice: this person present in your life through the headphones or the earphones. What kind of connection or feeling did you have when you were listening to these hosts or singular host talking on the podcast? How did you feel? Leon Mika 07:24 Well, it's actually funny. It depends a lot about how that podcast is produced. For a podcast like Planet Money, where it's almost like a radio show on the Internet, it was very detached: you're listening to a radio broadcaster, they're prepared clips from interviewees. And so the detachment there was quite large, but compared to, say, The Talk Show, or Core Intuition, where it's a bit more off-the-cuff, a bit more like a couple of friends talking to each other, you kind of get the sense that you're one of the guys. You're one of the people listening along, almost like you're their friend, and I know that, I know that's not quite an uncommon feeling, but yeah, it's it's certainly present in particularly in those sort of tech podcast shows that I listen to. Martin Feld 08:15 Yeah, and you said before that you were reading Daring Fireball and that was your kind of in to The Talk Show with John Gruber. When it came to Core Intuition, how did you come to discover that podcast and are you still a listener? Leon Mika 08:28 So I came to Core Intuition soon after I joined Micro.blog, which was, uh, late 2020. And I think at that point, so I was actually following Manton Reece before that. I can't actually remember exactly when; I think it was early 2020 (it might have been even earlier than that). But after joining Micro.blog and after sort of engaging with other members of the community, talking about Core Intuition and commenting on it, I figured that was probably a good show to start listening to. I think it was late 20... It was a couple of months after I joined that I started listening to it. Now, I listen to it weekly. Martin Feld 09:10 And again, getting to that idea of uh, the second voice and getting to know people in a way and have their connection to hosts, did you have a good idea who Manton Reece was, using Micro.blog before you start listening to the podcast? Leon Mika 09:24 I wasn't quite aware of what Manton was doing probably until I sat listened to Core intuition. Certainly, while I was sort of reading his blog, it was a lot of talk about Micro.blog and—'Micro-dot-blog', sorry—and I wasn't quite aware of what that was until I joined and then starting to listen to Core Intuition and starting to listen to the sort of design decisions he makes when it comes to building the Micro.blog. That sort of gave a sense of how Manton sort of thinks as a developer. I, I think at that point when I was a regular listener to Core Intuition, I actually went back to a few other points where Manton was on, like, for example, The Talk Show, I think, even previous episodes of Core Intuition as well. And that sort of filled in the background for me. And from there, I've got a sense of what Manton's previous works were. Martin Feld 10:24 That's really interesting, so you started listening to a podcast later in the process, but then found yourself going back to fill in the gaps. Have you done that with other shows or was it only with Core Intuition, that idea of going back through the archive? Leon Mika 10:36 I think I've done it with shows that I've found myself enjoying quite a lot. So another one is probably ATP, which I sort of started listening to shortly after I started listening to The Talk Show. From there, I've sort of going back to a few key episodes; I haven't listened to the whole back catalogue, but a few key episodes that were sort of brought up in the later episodes and that were linked in the show notes that were worthy of listening to, from the hosts' point of view. Martin Feld 11:05 Well, they're fairly long episodes, some of the shows that you mentioned, so I don't think anyone would hold it against you for not listening to everything back over again. That would be quite a feat! So when you started listening to Core Intuition, you said that you were engaging with these ideas of Manton, at least, perhaps Daniel, as a developer; if you don't mind my asking here, does that relate to any of the work that you do? Or what what kind of background do you bring in your knowledge? Leon Mika 11:30 OK, so I'm, I'm not an Apple developer, so we're in two completely different worlds. So, I mainly focus on back-end development work, so AWS Services, and I was thinking about this. Um, I think the fact that we're in two different worlds is actually something that's appealing to these sort of podcasts, because even though we're sort of developers as a whole, I mean, we build software, we actually build very different pieces of software. And the problems are slightly different but the pains are the same: you encounter something, you find a way around it, or you build something you're proud of, you want to sort of discuss it and go through how and why the decisions you made are that you made. That affinity to the fact that the struggles are the same and the victories are the same, even though in completely two different areas of the industry, is what's appealing to Core Intuition, particularly. Martin Feld 12:31 OK, and in your work, do you share a lot of ideas or different opinions or experiences with other people in your field? Is that something that you talk about a lot? Leon Mika 12:41 Ah, yeah, it is something that we talk about a fair bit at work, it's a different way. This is just my own opinion, but it feels like it's... Martin Feld 12:50 That's what I want! Go for it! Leon Mika 12:50 Yeah! It's probably also the fact that that the type of businesses that we work on are slightly different. I work in a large company, so I work with a team, and we will all share ideas and how we approach things. Even though we make decisions on a daily basis, the decisions of the product as a whole are not our own, and to be able to hear, to listen to these indie developers (on the top podcasts that I tend to listen to) it's refreshing to hear them talk about the approach of designing the product as a whole. And that's not something I get as myself in my regular job, so to be honest, it feels a bit like living vicariously through these dev-, developers.. And I think that's part of the appeal. Martin Feld 13:36 Kind of like a development holiday? Leon Mika 13:38 Sort of, yes! Martin Feld 13:39 Yeah, maybe that's a very poor way of putting it, but that's how I understood it. Leon Mika 13:43 Nah, that's, that's a good way of putting it. Martin Feld 13:45 Thank you. That's good. Um, OK, that's, that's interesting, so you're essentially getting a window into other people's experiences, which kind of cross over. It's a little bit of a development Venn diagram, but the world's those larger parts of the circles, you're held apart with these different backgrounds—that's really interesting. And something that I've learnt from people before—and this challenged my own assumptions about how people listen—when I listen, I really like to talk about it and share with other people, but not everyone does. People express or exhibit their fandom differently. When you're listening to these podcasts, you've explained how you have this second voice, there's this voice in your head, you're connected to these hosts on these shows. How does your fandom extend beyond that, if at all? Do you find yourself talking to other listeners? Are you active online? Do you keep to yourself? How are you engaging with the genre beyond listening, if at all? Leon Mika 14:42 I would probably say I'm one to keep to myself. I'm not a huge presence in social media. I think since joining Micro.blog and discovering that there are others that also listen to the same shows, I'm probably more likely to sort of start blogging about it. And I think that'll probably be something that I would continue to do going forward. Martin Feld 15:07 And what is it about Micro.blog that's maybe different from other social media that has prevented you from engaging in that sort of activity? Leon Mika 15:15 There's a number of factors, I would probably say. I think the community is one. I think Jean does a fantastic job, keeping the community as nice as it is. And also the fact that... the, probably the way that I approach blogging on Micro.blog... even though it is out in the open, it does still feel like something for myself. I don't know how that will sound to others, but I tend to keep to myself, generally, I'm a bit of an introvert, maybe even a little shy, so I don't try to sort of put myself out there a lot. Martin Feld 15:54 So it feels like your own place to express your thoughts and experiences? Leon Mika 15:58 Yeah, that's probably a good way to describe it. I mean, online is probably the only venue I have to express any thoughts I have on the shows. The people I sort of deal with in regular life are not real listeners, either, which doesn't bother me. I'm, I'm happy to sort of enjoy these on my own and with other members on the Micro.blog community now. Martin Feld 16:19 So that's interesting. I understand what you mean, because I'm a fellow user of Micro.blog. In fact, I think we might have even first spoken there... Leon Mika 16:25 Yes... Martin Feld 16:26 ...which I think is maybe a testament to the platform. So, I'm sharing that view with you. Leon Mika 16:30 Yep. Martin Feld 16:31 When it comes to sharing your own stuff there, I understand that point that you make about it being your own space, because it is a blog of sorts, you can just keep it to your own feed of stuff. But it is a social network and people are there ready to respond to you, and you know, the comments flow. For anyone who's used Micro.blog, you know, there isn't a thing like likes or retweeting or reblogging in quite the same way. Because of that connection to just commenting, how have you found that conversational element using Micro.blog to talk about podcasts and other elements of tech fandom? Leon Mika 17:05 The way probably would answer this question is probably not going to be a very unique answer, I think. Listening to anyone on Micro Monday about the community aspects, about the actual design of the platform itself, uh, how they try to reduce the amounts of, shall we say, metrics, which could sort of, that, which sort of feed the negative aspects of social media... provides an environment, at least for myself, that is not afraid to sort of express or discuss these sorts of aspects of listening to a podcast, I think I feel quite sort of... how would I answer this? I think the approach of posting about a particular podcast online on, on Micro.blog in such a way that would not provide the negative aspects of the social media given the sense that... it's 'cause, 'cause you don't know how who's read it, uh, so you're not really expecting anyone to read it. Martin Feld 18:08 Mmm... Leon Mika 18:09 I guess for some that might be a negative, but for me, it's quite liberating, and to be able to sort of make a post out there in such a way that at least I know, for myself, I've made it. I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah... Martin Feld 18:23 You've actually said something really, really fascinating to me, which I hadn't really thought about as a connection to podcasting until I've just spoken to you, and that's what you just said that you don't know if someone's read it. Now, that's actually a great connection to podcasting, 'cause I can tell you, in my experience in podcasting, there are some metrics available to you: you can see in general things about downloads and locations and so on, but famously (or infamously) people have complained for years that podcasting doesn't give you enough metrics, right? Leon Mika 18:54 Yeah... Martin Feld 18:55 But the thing you're telling me here that is refreshing about Micro.blog is that you don't really have that visibility, you're not feeding off those analytics. So, do you think that maybe—and I'm gathering this is what you think—but do you think that that kind of connection of no analytics or obsession with numbers in podcasting connects well to that idea of Micro.blog? Do you feel in listening to podcasting that you're kind of liberated from that, or that expectation or stress? Leon Mika 19:24 I think it helps a great deal, particularly the type of podcasts which I listen to which sort of tries to maintain the open Web, non-analytic, like non-dynamic ad insertion sort of types of podcasts that won't have available, the analytics that they have. Um, and I think it helps a great deal when it comes to them producing the content that they release, that they have to get it from something else other than the fact that they know that there's 100,000 people listening to these aspects of the shows and sort of tuning the shows to match it. Comparing that to, say, something like Twitter, where you might, you'll get up-to-the-minute analytics of what tweets are, quote, unquote, engaging. And having that sort of drive to tune the type of content that you produce to sort of get that engagement—it feels very unhealthy to me. Um, and I think the fact that the types of podcasts I listen to, which differ from, like, the podcasts that you might listen to on Spotify, for example, the type of podcasts that I personally listen to need to find something else to sort of drive them to produce the type of content they make. And the fact that most of them do that because they absolutely love it means that, the, it means to me that they're willing to produce content that they themselves think is good. And I see that in Micro.blog as well, particularly how I use Micro.blog. I can't get any sense of who is read what I post there, which means that it has to be something that I think is good. And I do it for mys-... I do it because I like to do it, for example, I think that is probably very close. It's a very sort of similar approach to what I see, in the way that podcasters produce the shows that I tend to listen to. Martin Feld 21:33 That's a lovely thing you've said there where it's about personal motivation or individual passion, because not too long ago, just talking to me now, you labelled yourself as an introvert, and what you've kind of suggested to me about social media beyond Micro.blog—or the kinds of thing that these podcasters are talking about—those things are, you could argue, externally driven. You're putting stuff up online for the approval of or from the influence of others. But you're saying that this is the reverse. You're, you're engaging with podcasters and putting up content in the social media space that's driven by you. Is that fair to say? Leon Mika 22:11 I think that's fair to say, yeah. Martin Feld 22:13 OK, so it comes from you. Leon Mika 22:14 I mean, it's good to have others to sort of, you know, read the stuff that you sort of produce and reply and everything like that, but it's not necessary. It's basically an audience of one, me in the future is enough, basically, Martin Feld 22:31 That's a great way to put it, and just broadening a bit, because you mentioned Core Intuition, but then you also said ATP and The Talk Show, and I'm sure there may be others, there's, I think you said Relay FM as well. Some people outside of any given fandom, like technology might look at it and go, 'How are you listening to all of these people talk about the same sort of thing?' But I'm guessing you must get different value or connections from each of them. So can you give me an idea of maybe what you get across the ecosystem differently, or what all the pieces of the puzzle are? Leon Mika 23:03 So I'll answer first about how I could possibly listen to all these shows the same time. Uh, the probably the quickest answer is routine and basically listening to certain podcasts at certain periods of time of the week. But I think getting back to the question about value, it does occasionally get a little tiring listening to the same topics brought up in three or four different podcasts. So, to be able to sort of, so I do find myself needing to sort of shake up the mixture a fair bit. I mean, listening to ATP, Talk Show, the sort of shows that sort of geared towards, shall we say, Apple news, and sort of comparing it to something like, uh, Reconcilable Differences, which is a bit more light-hearted, a bit more life, and maybe even a bit of comedy, counterbalances it. And I think I need a fair, a quite a decent mixture of that over the course of the week. And tech-... I listen to other podcasts apart from the technical shows as well, that there's a couple of ones that are more focused on news, or one or two sort of comedic ones as well. I'd like to say to relatively balanced diet, I mean, you can't listen to everything, but it works for me, I think. Martin Feld 24:24 And you just mentioned there, which I think was a quite a funny and appropriate word, you said it gets a bit tiring or tiresome sometimes to have this deluge of tech news coming at you. Are there any things that you follow or do (different media or activities or hobbies) that are your escape from podcasting? Kind of an escape from the escape? Leon Mika 24:45 I, actually I would say podcasting, listening to podcasts is probably a big factor of the escape. There's a lot of times where I'm doing something that's not work where I'm sort of listening to podcasts. I mean, occasionally I do listen to music—occasional walk with a bit of music is a nice sort of change—but if I'm not working, and I'm doing something mundane, I'm usually got a podcast listening. I'm usually listening to a podcast at the time. Martin Feld 25:13 What sort of music do you like? Martin Feld 25:15 Um, I'm a big fan of Mike Oldfield, so that's... I'd probably say a progressive rock. Martin Feld 25:21 Are we talking Tubular Bells here? Leon Mika 25:22 Yes, we are talking about Tubular Bells. Martin Feld 25:24 Announcing acoustic guitars and mandolin? Leon Mika 25:26 Yes, that's it! That's the one! Martin Feld 25:27 Love it. Leon Mika 25:28 Ah, really?! Martin Feld 25:29 Oh, I had... my father was very enthusiastic in sharing that music and we would often exclaim along to the, uh the announced instruments. But this isn't my story, it's yours! So what is it about Mike Oldfield? That's fascinating. I like that connection. Leon Mika 25:46 Oh OK, um, yeah. I mean, I guess I mean, I'm not I prefer to listen to instrumental music. Martin Feld 25:53 Mmm... Leon Mika 25:54 And I think when I first listened, listened to it, it was the type of music that sort of grabbed me. I can't really describe it any more than that. It's a type of music that really does sort of, I find really quite pleasing, I'd say. Martin Feld 26:10 What is it about instrumental as opposed to vocal that captures your interest? Leon Mika 26:15 I guess the only answer I've got for that, is that I just prefer instrumental music, I think. Yeah, I mean, I do play music just on and off, which I think might have something to do with it. Martin Feld 26:29 Play music, as in, play an instrument? Leon Mika 26:31 Yeah, I play the keyboard. Martin Feld 26:32 How long have you been playing the keyboard for? Leon Mika 26:35 Since I was eight, maybe? I think... Martin Feld 26:38 Wow, OK, so you've really stuck with it! Are you quite proficient? Leon Mika 26:42 Ah I did AMEB exams. It's been a long while since I have played something, so the skills are sort of atrophied. But yeah, I used to be, yeah... Martin Feld 26:52 Now, as someone who loves music, but can't play an instrument, I'm always really interested to talk to people who can play an instrument—any kind of musician. So, when you are playing or when you do have the opportunity to play, how do you feel? And how does it compare to engaging with other media? Because, I suppose, to contextualise this, you're approaching podcasting, an audio medium, as a listener, but you play music as a creator, or an instrumentalist or a producer, so what's the difference in producing the sound versus listening to it? Leon Mika 27:25 I think a big difference between the two is how active you are in the actual act of either listening or producing it. I think, when it comes to music production, or if or if it comes to something like software development, on my own time, that will require... sometimes it does require well, particularly, especially with music, occasionally with software development, it does require an active level of... it needs, your needs your active attention, you can't really sort of split focus when it comes to doing those sorts of activities, which, which is a vast difference from activities where you would be listening to the podcasts that you can probably reserve some of your sort of attention to sort of listen to a conversation going on, while you're doing something that doesn't require your full attention. Martin Feld 28:21 Yeah, so it's about focus. And I recall, you said not long ago that podcasting is really part of the routine that you have, because you're working, podcasting goes along with it. Leon Mika 28:31 Yep. Martin Feld 28:31 And listening, I gather from you is a multitasking element, whereas you couldn't really do that when you're playing the keyboard because it needs your ultimate focus. So does that affect your ability to really engage with it on a regular basis? Leon Mika 28:44 Yeah, so definitely, well, particularly when it comes to music, I'm not wanting to be able to sort of listen to music while I do anything else, because even on the plane, I'm still actively listening to it. I find myself being able to sort of passively listen to podcasts at the time. I think that's probably the biggest difference between the two. Martin Feld 29:04 And in terms of your podcast listening diet—I'm not getting hung up on their word 'tiresome', but I really like it—is there some sort of change or future direction that you'd like to see in the genre or format of tech podcasting that would make it maybe more engaging or that would improve it for you? Where would you like to see things go? Leon Mika 29:24 I think the biggest direction that I want to see, particularly in the type of indie tech podcasting such as Core Intuition, and it's like, uh, is to stay as open, stay close to the technology as the open Web as they possibly can. I'm personally not one to like podcast that do dynamic ad insertions, that really he-... hearing an American speak, then that gets cut off by an Australian, make a, make an ad read is very jarring, and I do not like it at all. I like to be able to hear the hosts read the ad, because it sort of keeps you in the, in the show. And yeah, just I just get the feeling of that, if these podcasts were to sort of get swayed into the closed sort of ecosystems, such as Spotify, they're in danger of—this is just my personal opinion—but they do no favours of keeping the ecosystem open. I get the same sense that it would be similar to when old-school bloggers moved to Twitter, and sort of neglected their own blog. I think we've got a nice little thing going on with tech podcasts using the open Web ecosystem, and I'd certainly like to see that continue. Martin Feld 30:45 You make some great points there and the way that you mentioned in Australia and speaking in the middle of an American podcast, I'm reminded, and maybe you've had this experience, but you know, when you hear Australians pop up in American TV shows and movies, and you go, 'Is that what we sound like, or are they doing the accent properly?' Leon Mika 31:02 I feel the same way! Absolutely the same way... it's jarring. It's really jarring. Martin Feld 31:07 Perfect example, I think, perfect example. You've given some really, really interesting responses, and I appreciate your story. Are there any other elements of your personal narrative or experience with podcasting or your media habits that you'd like to talk about that I haven't pressed you on? Leon Mika 31:23 No, I think we've pretty much covered most of the things I wanted to discuss, so yeah, that's pretty much all from me. Martin Feld 31:32 Well, Leon, this has been really good. I want to say thank you for sparing your time and sharing your personal story with me and listeners of this episode. So thanks for joining Really Specific Stories. Leon Mika 31:42 Oh, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much.