Really Specific Stories: Andrew Canion Duration: 51:51 SPEAKERS Martin Feld, Andrew Canion Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you so much for joining Really Specific Stories, Andrew, it's great to have you on the show. Andrew Canion 00:26 It's an absolute pleasure to be here. Martin Feld 00:28 Now I'm going to kick off with a question that will start each of these episodes, and that is: how did you first get into podcasts? Andrew Canion 00:37 OK, wow. That's... it's a good question. It requires me to throw my mind back a really long way, because I've been into podcasts since almost bef-... almost before they were called podcasts, I think. It was a really long time ago. Let me think... the first thing that comes into my mind when you asked me that is I have a distinct memory of driving to work in the morning with my work-issued IBM ThinkPad computer, open on the passenger seat of the car next to me, so I would be driving into work and I would have a podcast playing on that laptop. There was no iPods or devices or phones or anything that could do it; you just had a computer. And I think, I think it might have been running iTunes. And I think I was probably listening to Adam Curry, who would do a daily show. He's a UK-based podcaster. I don't know if he still does it, to be perfectly honest. But he was known as 'The Podfather', Podfather because he was one of the first people to do podcasting, so I was listening to his podcast, so it has to be pretty early on in the world of podcasting. So yeah, that's, that would be my first thing that I remember. Martin Feld 01:56 Now, at that time, what did you enjoy about Adam Curry? Andrew Canion 02:00 D'ya know, I've...? Since I was a young kid, I always listened to voice; it was something that always helped me. I, when I was really super-little, I used to fall asleep listening to audiobooks. And then when I got a little bit older, I would fall asleep listening to talkback radio. Um, and then I think, um as I fell asleep when I was older, again, listening to BBC World Service radio. So I've always been somebody who, like connected to voice, ahead of music or anything like that. So, I think the podcasting was kind of just the next continuation of that. And I think what I really liked about podcasting was, it felt more immediate, and it felt like you were almost a part of a club, and particularly in those early days, it wasn't popularised, nobody else knew what it was, so it was very, trended nerdy, but it was kind of, you felt like you were part of something. Ah, and I know, Adam Curry, his show was quite long each day, it was like 90 minutes a day. I don't, I had to work hard to find the time to listen to it, hence, driving to work, listening to it, and all that kind of stuff. But he, it sort of evolved, like any show evolves, it evolved, and you got to know, the running gags, and you got to know the characters that were in the show. Ah, and you got to, you know, look forward to segments that would come up, you know, either every day or every now and then. So it was just this sort of, um, you felt a part of something. And that was for the Adam Curry one and then on with other podcasts, I guess it's it's much the same. It's that being part of something and having a community and you feel like you get to know the people in your ears. Martin Feld 03:38 So you mentioned the power of voice over music. What was it about voice (over music) for you in that early time? Andrew Canion 03:48 I think music... music was OK to suit a particular mood but I think I always needed brain food. My, I think my personality type is I always want inputs, and I want to learn and I want to be actively engaged. And music to me never really hit that chord; it was, it was if you were doing something else and you just need something in the background, that's fine. But listening to people and listening to voice, um, if you're not doing something actively, you know work-related or using your own brain, I would much rather walk around a park listening to people talk than walk around a park listening to music, I just find music boring. Um so I think having that, those voices, it activated my brain and it let me almost, you know, have a conversation with them, even, but it was very lopsided. I was only thinking my thoughts are not able to respond, but it was still kind of good. It's like, like overhearing a really interesting conversation at a dinner table, you know that's, that's not yours 'cause their life is infinitely more interesting and stuff than what you've got going on, so you can listen to theirs instead! Martin Feld 04:59 You said that word 'club' in there, right? And I think that's interesting. You said that the conversation was one-sided because you were listening to Adam Curry, or... Martin Feld 05:09 ...other podcasters at the time, were you part of a wider club or, when I say that, were you talking to other people about this interest or was it limited to just listening? Andrew Canion 05:19 Yeah... Andrew Canion 05:20 Um, it was really just limited to listening, especially in those early days, if you want to limit it to that there was nobody else you could talk to about it. Because people didn't know what you're talking about. If you mentioned podcasts, you'd get a bit of an odd look, or you'd have to explain it's kind of like a, it's like a radio show, but on your computer. Um, people didn't get it, it was hard to get access to these things. It wasn't super-simple. iTunes, that's probably the one that made it easiest to begin with. And then you had that classic demarcation period, which I guess you would know, and everybody who knows anything about podcasts, Serial, right? When Serial hit, it suddenly became a normalised thing. And I remember when Serial came out, I was like, finally people are getting it like, this is not, this is not new to me. I'd be you know, but that page, stage, it's probably, I'd eased off on the Adam Curry and moved into the Leo Laporte of the world and all that kind of stuff, all the tech shows that he used to do. And, but yeah, I guess in terms of having a club and somebody you can talk to about it, I had nobody else. Um, it was, you know, there was nobody in my my circles that were kind, of, was as nerdy as me, that you could talk to about it. And there wasn't, there weren't the Discord servers out there and the chat rooms you could find on the Internet to talk about them. So I was just kind of in my own world doing my own thing, and knowing that there's other people in more interesting parts of the world, like in the Am-... in America, in the US and UK, where people are much more engaged and enlightened. So, I know being in Perth always felt like a, like ergh, country Perth, like people have no idea of here. They're so behind the times. And I felt like a fish out of water, 'cause you know, like I'm just this unique dude. listening to podcasts. Andrew Canion 05:44 So we've met each other online with a great distance between us, you know, across the continent. Andrew Canion 07:14 Yeah. Martin Feld 07:14 But that's way later than this. You moved from Adam Curry through to podcasts, like Leo Laporte's. What was the path from there through to and beyond Serial that led you to finding those people? Andrew Canion 07:28 Ah, led me to finding the the the other people in the podcast world, you mean, like yourself? Is that...? Martin Feld 07:35 Yeah, your your club, as you said. Andrew Canion 07:38 Well, it took a long time, um... and I think, and if I think back it was that I continued to listen to podcasts. Listen, listen, listen... Bill Simmons during the basketball stuff, the, all the tech stuff, then Relay FM, and um, 5by5, Dan Benjamin's network, was quite big for quite a time. So that's probably, you know, I could sort of, the eras are almost like the podcasting networks that I listened to, whether it was the ESPN stuff, 5by5, Relay FM, yeah and that sort of world. Um, so I think in terms of finding them, as those networks built critical mass, they were also able to build communities of critical mass as well. And the technology platforms that they had available to them improved, so they started to build, whether it was Slack chat groups, or Discourse forums, or Discord groups, you know all the 'disc-', all the discourse, there's so many of those names. But they were able to build those groups around them. Um, even Reddit, you know, like so, Hello Internet, I was just thinking, was another great podcast of the time. There were, they had enough oomph behind them that people got engaged. And so I was able to sort of sidle into those groups as well. But the thing I really noticed is I, even though I sort of join those groups, I'm not like a huge joiner of groups. And I think, ultimately, I still sort of enjoyed, this is my budget with these people. I have like 90 minutes a week, listening to these people or whatever, and that's enough for me. I don't want to go further than that. I think the classic example is probably ATP (Accidental Tech Podcast): it started out, you know, they each had their own podcasts; and then they did a show on cars called Neutral; and then they turned into this tech podcast... and that's huge. It's probably the biggest tech pod-... podcast out there. I have zero interest in joining their message rooms, their chat boards, listening to their live shows, I don't care about any of that. I just want to listen to their two-hour show every week, and that be it. And to me, that's club enough. It's a circle round to the club thing. Martin Feld 09:55 When it comes to interacting with different groups, you mentioned a bunch of different forums, groups, social networks, how you apply your budget of time. Andrew Canion 10:04 Yep. Martin Feld 10:05 How do you decide which ones you want to become more invested in and communicate with others? How do you determine that budget? Andrew Canion 10:12 Yes, it's, it's difficult because it's much easier to add than subtract, with podcasts; you always, you sort of come across a new one, and I'm quick to add it, but um, I'm less quick to delete ones that have gone in the past. And I'm also a bit of a completionist. I don't like... if I subscribe to a show, I kind of find that I want to listen to all of them. I don't like just looking at the synopsis and going now skip that one this week. I feel like I'm cheating somehow, which is dumb, but that's how my brain works. So in terms of, you know, which ones do I engage with and how do I find the time? I... is the topic of interest to me? Do the hosts, do they have a good rapport and an enjoyable way to listen to, you know, is it pleasing to the ear? Is the editing and sound production really good? Like, if it's really low sound quality, I don't care how good they are, I just can't, can't do it. So they're kind of like my listening thresholds. And then, am I gonna go to the next level and engage in the community? It probably comes down to: is it scratching a particular interest—itch of mine—that I can apply? Am I going to learn something from the community, and that's where I think um, that probably the one that jumps out in terms of doing that the most for me is the Mac Power Users podcast. That podcast, like, I almost stopped... I don't learn anything from the podcast itself anymore, because I've kind of learnt at all, you know, you listened to 500 shows of anything, and you're gonna be pretty well across it. But I still learn stuff from their community on their um, their Discourse forum. And its, that's a place I still go to, and I read, I read more than I write, but I read it religiously and I really enjoy that community. And I feel like it's, I think I'm looking for something that's positive and supportive and helpful. I'm not looking for just random chitchat and, you know, water-cooler talk, when I'm engaging with the community. Martin Feld 10:54 And you still listen to Mac Power Users today? Andrew Canion 11:42 I do, yes. That's one of the ones that's been... I've listened to, I almost feel like I kind of have to! I've been listening to it since it launched. And um, you know I occasionally skip one of their episodes, but I would have listened to 95 per cent of them. It's, I don't know why, I just I just do it. I do listen to it at about 1.6 times speed, though, because Americans talk slowly. Martin Feld 12:32 Oh, and do... you only do that with American shows, the 1.5? Andrew Canion 12:35 Mostly, yeah, yeah, yep. Americans just talk way too slowly. I can, I think Australians, we zip through our language and Americans are really... slow... talking... about... things. And so, when you listen at one time... it gets... a little... tedious. So, you crank it up and then you could talk, you know, we can get, we get going and you could churn through a lot more podcasts. Martin Feld 13:00 It would be interesting to know if Americans ever do half-speed on Australians, then. Andrew Canion 13:04 They might have to! I don't, I doubt they would speed us up. I think they would really struggle. But Americans, oof, man they are slow. So I have no problem, no problem speeding them up at all. Martin Feld 13:16 It's very interesting. Well it's good that the tool exists then. Andrew Canion 13:19 It is and that's why you can't use stock apps, right?! You gotta, you gotta use a, you gotta use a bespoke application to get the best sound quality. Martin Feld 13:28 Now I know we've discussed it before people switch all the time: which app are you using then, if not the stock one? Andrew Canion 13:34 OK, so I am back on Overcast. Martin Feld 13:38 Mm-hmmm... Andrew Canion 13:38 I actually don't like its interface but I love its audio engine. So if, if you could give me a podcast app that was Pocket Casts, in terms of its, the way it works, and Overcast in terms of the audio engine, that's what I'm looking for. Actually maybe even, actually maybe even Castro ahead of Pocket Casts for an interface. I like the Castro one. Castro doesn't sync to an iPad, right? So I can't use it. So it's got to have, it's gotta have a sync across multiple devices. And it's gotta have a really good audio engine and Overcast ticks those boxes. But I think it's ugly. Martin Feld 14:15 And stock apps don't? What are those other advantages for you? Andrew Canion 14:18 Um... they're the main ones. Stock app... the Apple Podcasts app is absolutely confusing in terms of, somebody as well who likes to maintain like a quite a list, like a list of regular shows. It's very vague in terms of: have you listened to this one or have you not and is it still stored on your device, or have you... has it been offloaded? It's just really vague and I don't get the... I feel like it's designed for somebody to just dip in and just ask Siri to play the latest episode of, you know, Hamish and Andy. Yeah, rather than I'm a nerd and I have this series of shows that I listen to; that doesn't feel like the use case it's been built for. Whereas the other ones are much more about, yeah, you're, you're a collector (or what have you) of podcasts. And you take this stuff seriously, and you want finicky settings for that. So yes, the American shows you want to play at 1.5 times; the Australian ones you don't. And you can customise all that. So that's kind of what I'm looking for. Martin Feld 15:16 OK, so there's a difference in the level of enthusiast in using these apps. Andrew Canion 15:22 Yep. Martin Feld 15:23 With that in mind, and the fact that you've been listening to Mac Power Users for so long, how many shows do you think roughly—or can you give me an idea of the suite of shows that you're listening to that—need to be managed in this alternative kind of app? Andrew Canion 15:38 Well, I can't say all of them, I think, I don't know if that's really answering the question. I just, I can't imagine using an app that doesn't give me that kind of control. Um, so I think it would be all of them and I think on my library at the moment—I don't have my phone with me, I've got my iPad—it's probably only, I probably only subscribe to maybe 20 shows... 25 shows? Which probably isn't a lot, but they're, they're all shows that I actively listen to, so that does add up. Given that's so... Martin Feld 16:08 It comes back to that budget. Andrew Canion 16:09 Yeah! Martin Feld 16:10 So it's 20 regular instalments throughout your week or fortnight. Andrew Canion 16:13 Yeah, which is pretty nuts, if I say it like that. That's why I have to listen to at 1.5 speed, otherwise, my backlog is gonna get out of control pretty quickly! Martin Feld 16:21 And are all of those shows, tech or mostly tech? How would you see that divide? Andrew Canion 16:27 Yeah... so I have sort of three, three categories. And in fact, I'm going to cheat a little bit, because I'm just going to remind myself and look at Overcast, as I do this, I'm sorry... Martin Feld 16:39 You're allowed to, there can be source material. Andrew Canion 16:43 So, my Overcast has yeah, three, three categories. So I've got bedtime category, I've got a basketball category and then I've got... I used to have a technology category, but then it was just overwhelming. So I've just done away with that and that's just all episodes. Bedtime is my news podcast, so that's kind of stuff like BBC, um from our own correspondent. It's Australian politics... ah, theyr'e the kind of the pi-..., the big sort of... and um, 99% Invisible, they're the kind of shows I'm looking at, in that bedtime kind of soothing, nice radio voice to fall asleep to. And also, again, getting back, that's factual, right? There's a lot of facts, fact-based sort of documentary style in there, it's what I, what I like. Um then to have a basketball category, which is a bunch of different Australian NBL-related basketball podcasts, I'm a big, Australian NBL guy. I host an NBL podcast as well, so I kind of listened to, listen to my own podcast to get better, and listen to other people's to kind of get their insights and thoughts and, and that kind of thing. So that's another category. And then I have everything else, which is basically tech shows. It's Core Intuition. It's all the, it's Relay FM stuff, it's Dan Benjamin stuff. I've actually cut down that area quite a bit recently. I went through and culled a bunch of shows because I was like, I'm hearing different people talk about the same stuff too much and it was feeling repetitive, so I went through and sort of culled that right down. So they're the sort of the three ways I, I carved them up: three, three main categories. Martin Feld 18:29 You mentioned that there was a factual element to some of the news or politics, or political shows. Andrew Canion 18:35 Yep. Martin Feld 18:35 How would you describe the difference in feeling between listening to the majority of your tech shows and things around bedtime, or that are of that informative group that you identified? Andrew Canion 18:45 They're, the news and politics stuff, it's very um... it's edited, it's, they're shorter, they're more structured, they have, you know, almost like they have, almost more like, like a radio show, they have a runtime, and they aim to hit that runtime. Um, and it will be pieced together with perhaps, you know, segment—clear and defined segments—whether they're different reports from people or segments within a show. But it's like, we're going to talk about this now. And ch-ch-ch... they go on like that. But they don't have chapter markers. And yeah, sort of the things you would expect, you might expect to say it's kind of like, 'This is a radio show and we've packaged it up into an mp3—bang, there you go!' But they are highly produced, they sometimes have pre- and post-roll ads, that kind of stuff. You move to the tech: it's much more hobbyist-enthusiast kind of approach to it. It's people talking to other people who think the same way. Uh, whether that's good or bad, that's that's how it comes across. It's almost like there is a baseline level of knowledge we expect you to have for you to be even listening to this show. They are much more meandering. They go around in circles, and, but then they have, they have chapter markers and they have those sorts of things as well. They have ads, many of them have ads now as well, but they're usually not, usually host-read (they're not dynamically inserted ads). So it's a very different vibe and it feels, they're much more chatty. It's people talking about things they're interested in. So they're, they are that hobbyist style. Martin Feld 20:26 It sounds like there's a combination of the voice that you like, and these affordances are important to you. Andrew Canion 20:31 Yes, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I mean, for me as well, it's like the polit-... the political and news stuff that could be read by anybody. And you kind of get to know the hosts' voice and stuff but it could be anybody, as long as they're giving you the information or the news or what have you. Whereas with the tech stuff, it's like, I'm listening to it, because I want to hear these people's opinions on this stuff, this news that I could find anywhere. Um, I care less about the news or the facts; I care more about the the op-ed, like, what do they, what do they think about it? That's kind of the difference. Martin Feld 21:10 And before I lose that point in those categories that you brought up, the other one that you mentioned, was basketball, and you said that you started to produce your own basketball podcast content and even listen to yourself. How did you go from listening to producing it? Andrew Canion 21:26 Yes, that was um... that was probably my, that was the big, big break. I don't know... a bit of a stretch to call it a big break, right? But for so long, I've been a listener of podcasts and I felt like I knew what a podcast was all about and I understood the technology behind it, but I never had the confidence to do it myself. I thought, well, what have I got to say? How would I find an audience and why, why would anybody bother listening to it? So the first thing I did was I tried, I eventually got over that hurdle and I thought, I'm just gonna try it myself. And I created my um, my own podcast that was called Keep Practising. And that was a just a trial run through on the Micro.blog platform. And it was just an effort by me to try all different things, just trialing reading a pod-... you know, making some notes and reading a podcast from that, making a podcast, and then doing a guest interview and making a podcast out of that. And it was practising all the elements of what goes into it, so it was editing, it was, you know, thinking about a run sheet for the show, and finding guests, just really, like, learn by doing. And that ran for a little while, and I got better at it. And one of the things I wanted to do was, I, there was a podcast that I was listening to about NBL at the time, and the guy had a really nice radio voice, and I thought, and I liked the way he talked about basketball. I liked his, his approach, his, the way he thought about it and talked about the game. And I thought, I'll tell you what, this is outside my comfort zone, but I'm going to go to him and I'm going to send him a message and say, 'I'm doing this little podcast on the side, do you want to come on and be a guest of mine, and talk about your show?' And that was gonna be for 20 minutes, you know, kinda 20-minute, half-an-hour conversation. We got on the call and we spoke for probably two-and-a-half hours, that first time. And it was just like, wow, that... you've left me a heck of an editing job for my own show, so thanks for that! Um... but just the two of us hit it off and we both had this real understanding of one another about the game of basketball. And it just went from there, and we said, 'Well, let's that was really fun; let's do this again'. There was an American tournament coming up called The Basketball Tournament; it's kind of a knockout thing where they play for a million bucks—winner takes all. Uh, and we said, 'Let's just trial something and let's watch all these games and then do a daily podcast on it'. And yeah so I, so we did it. We both committed and we were taking game notes and then we'd, we'd come to do a recording every day for about, you know, just over a week on this tournament. And it was just so smooth and easy. And we're like, this, this is gold. And he said, like, 'It's hard work doing a podcast by myself; could you join me on the NBL Pocket Podcast?' And I was like, yeah! It's kinda like my dream come true! And we've just gone from there. And it's been amazing to see it grow. And I think it's definitely grown and become a better show with having me as well. So, it's just, and it's so much fun. I love it. We're on a bit of a break at the moment because it's off season, so we're both having a bit of a rest from it, but um looking forward to getting back into it again, as the NBL season cranks up. Andrew Canion 21:38 And how have you found—since having success with this and transforming the show into a conversational format—how have you found balancing listening and producing that content? Andrew Canion 24:50 Um... I, that's the one downside, is that I don't get to listen to the show as a, as a, as a listener anymore. Yeah, and I miss it. Sometimes, sometimes Joe, the other host, will do one by himself just for, you know, whatever reason, I can't make it or he's just had an opportunity to do it. And I love those shows because I can listen to it back as, as a normal person. I listen to it now when we're on it, I do listen to most of them, to learn how I'm presenting things, and I catch myself with verbal tics and that kind of thing. Because the way we do it is we just almost do a record to tape, we just push record, talk for 45 minutes, push stop and shove it out. It's very just, no editing or anything. For a sport show, that kind of works quite well. But you do notice then, there's no hiding from your, your foibles. So, all the 'ya know's and 'uuuuhs' that you say, yeah, they're, they're made quite apparent when you're listening to yourself. Martin Feld 25:51 And you mentioned editing was very important, or at least, emphasised in some of those news shows that you listen to... basketball isn't. Martin Feld 26:00 What about tech? Do you enjoy that edited side or do you think it's less important? How does it work in that genre? Andrew Canion 26:00 Yep. Andrew Canion 26:07 It's probably somewhere in the middle, in that, it doesn't need to be absolutely precise. But what I am finding, I am finding that the quality or the the effort that's being put into tech-show editing these days does seem to be declining. And I think it's the nature of the beast in that, these, they're all, they're mainly all connected to, almost like one, it's almost become a bit too insular. There's this, you know like, Relay FM is the big fish in the, in the pond of the world that I'm in, and they all, all these hosts know each other and they all do cross-podcasting. And that's one of the reasons I got rid of a bunch of them. But also, it seems like they're just pumping so many of these shows out now that they don't care so much about the craft of the shows anymore. It's more about: 'We've got 90 minutes of content, we need to film and we need to do 90 minutes because we need to put four ad slots in, and we just got to ramble', and chop, chop, chop 'Put the ads in and that'll do us', and they, I really feel that they don't edit enough anymore. I feel like that used to be better. Um so I think the tech world needs more editing and isn't getting it. But it doesn't need to be as precise as what those, you know, four-and-a-half, four-minute-45-second BBC snippets are gonna be. Martin Feld 27:31 A higher expectation for tech than sport—that, that's what you have? Martin Feld 27:36 Yes... Martin Feld 27:36 But not quite as high? Andrew Canion 27:37 Yeah, we're a sport is, sport's just a thing of emotions, right? At the end of the day, it's entertainment and it's emotions, and having somebody go off, you know, make half, half-baked claims is almost half the fun of sport. So that's, that's, that's OK. I think that creates enjoyment when people get, you know, it gets animated and get fired up about the topic. That ultimately doesn't really matter. I think that's that's fine for sport. I think it's enjoyable. Martin Feld 28:06 From the beginning of the discussion, you mentioned this idea of being in a club. Andrew Canion 28:09 Yep. Martin Feld 28:10 You've got your sports club; you've got your tech club—that started as a more solo or uh, solitary activity. Andrew Canion 28:19 Yep. Martin Feld 28:20 But you've met people, I understand, across different networks that you mentioned. What does that community look like for you now? You said you've retracted from some shows. What are the different networks or people you're interacting with now through technology? Andrew Canion 28:34 OK so, I think for me, there's two major clubs I've—maybe three clubs, I'd say there are for me. Firstly, there's the um, there's NBL Twitter, so um, NB-… or NBL. So and then NBL is on Twitter. Martin Feld 28:38 Mm-hmm... Andrew Canion 28:45 Twitter is not something that I particularly love as a platform, and I had some issues with it. And I recalibrated myself to, I only deal with Twitter if it's about basketball in Australia. That's it. In the NBL world as well, the NBL Pocket Podcast, which is my other show, I created a Discord server for it and for the listeners of it, so I almost bootstrapped community myself, because I didn't really like Twitter. And I was like, well, Discord seems to be a good place to do that. And that's been fantastic. It's not a huge community. It's not, but the people that are in there, I feel like that's a genuine community. And that's got its own legs now. Um, and we're all in there for the same purpose: and that's to talk about this sport that's underrepresented in Australia, but we all love it. Um, so that's, that's one club. Ah, the other one is probably, like I mentioned the other, the, the other podcasts I've talked about already, a couple of discourse servers and that kind of thing. The other major club is the show that you may be familiar with and that's one called Hemispheric Views. Martin Feld 29:55 Mmm… Andrew Canion 29:55 Ah yes... Martin Feld 29:56 I do know that one, yep. Andrew Canion 29:57 It's a good show, apparently. Apparently, at least two of the hosts are excellent; that, that would be Martin Feld and Andrew Canion—two excellent hosts. The third, the third host, Jason Burk, he's a little sketchy, but we keep him around. Andrew Canion 30:08 [Amused intake of breath] OK... Andrew Canion 30:09 That show has got sort of two community elements, I see. There's the first one through Micro.blog, which is almost like an independent Twitter/blogging service, and that's how we all met, I think, you can basically boil it down to that. And there's a lot of our listeners have come from that world. And so there's a bit of community there. But then we also have our own Discord server. And that's, again, not a huge number of people, but the people that are in, you, you banter with a lot, and I feel like there's a really close-knit connection between the people that are on that show. Probably the final element, I know rambling a bit here talking a bit about this community stuff... the one amazing thing that I think has happened through the podcasting that I've done, is that there's, this just one person in particular, as I use him as an example, and I hope he doesn't mind. He is a listener to both Hemispheric Views and NBL Pocket Podcast. He and I are very similar in the way that we see the world, I think. And over the years, only through doing these podcasts have I met this person. And now he has become, to me, a good and growing friend, and somebody that I'm now seeing in the real world, um and getting along with really well. And I think it's amazing that that has happened. Never have I seen, for me personally, the Internet translate into meatspace, you know, where you you talk to somebody online, and then you meet them in real person—nd they live up to what they are online. And it's um, that's been quite, quite fun. Martin Feld 31:46 And that's through, as you said, a relationship through two podcasts, for which you are a producer of both and he is a listener of both. Andrew Canion 31:53 Yes. Martin Feld 31:54 How's that dynamic? Andrew Canion 31:55 Yes well, I know, and you think, oh, gosh, is he like... a fan? He's, he's... Martin Feld 32:01 It's interesting to think about. How do you approach it? Andrew Canion 32:03 Am I um, you know, Justin Bieber and meeting my peeps? I'm not, no, no... it's, that's the good thing about this indie podcasting, is that it's small, and it's not big money. And you are still just a normal person. Um, and he is normal person and we just happen to like the same things. I happen to talk about them into a microphone every now and then but that doesn't by any means diminish, you know, his interest or knowledge of the subject as well. And so when we talk, we meet and we meet as equals. It's just just like two dudes chatting. But you're right, if it got massive, and somebody like from a from another place wanted to meet, then you'd be like, oh, God, are they, they're not... they're not a fan, are they? That, that would be a bit weird. Um fortunately, I don't think either of us are in the place where we're that popular yet. Martin Feld 32:55 So it's a very genuine connection? It sounds like. Andrew Canion 32:57 Yeah, absolutely. And that's been the most, obviously, you know, getting, I've gotten to know you and Jason, for instance, and Joe on Pocket Podcast, and that kind of stuff. Martin Feld 33:06 Mmm... Andrew Canion 33:07 Of the, so off the, but of those three hosts I've just mentioned, yourself included, the only one I've met is Joe from NBL Pocket Podcast. Every other connection I have, I've never met you in real life, which is super weird. So the fact that that this other person I'm talking about, I have met them in real life. And that is, that it's very different. And it's, it's super-rewarding that just putting yourself out there, in terms of making a podcast, has created a friendship, you know like? And I'm a person who doesn't have a huge circle of friends in the normal world. So if I can add one more friend, that is like, awesome, because they're not easy to find. Martin Feld 33:53 It is an interesting point you bring up because we talk to each other every fortnight habitually through a video call that we record, and then you know, smatterings throughout the week, you know, over text or Discord or whatever, and yet, we've never actually physically met. Andrew Canion 34:11 Yep. Martin Feld 34:11 Which is very, very odd, like you say. In terms of the interaction that you have, whether it's on Micro.blog or Twitter or in Discord between these two different groups, do you have a difference in the feeling of the fandom that you're essentially overseeing or facilitating as a producer—one being with sport one being with tech? Because the tools are similar? Andrew Canion 34:33 Yeah. Martin Feld 34:34 Are there differences? How would you explain those two different fandoms? Andrew Canion 34:38 Yeah, you're right. The tools are similar. The tools are identical. We're both, they're both basically running on, Discord's service has become the place to be in terms of these, this community building. I can probably most reflect differences in the way that I am in the two different communities. Like I can really, with the Hemispheric Views people, I can really nerd out and I can really focus on my nerdery. But I feel like if I go too nerdy on the, on the basketball side, I don't worry about being belittled or laughed at or anything like that, I just think people won't get it. You know, it's not their thing. And so, where I guess, what I found most gratifying about it is that I feel like personally, I've got this super-weird split personality. And I always have, we're on this kind of like sports guy, but also introverted nerd. And that's a really odd mix. And I've never found another person that has that exact same split. And so, and I still haven't exactly found it. But at least this way, it allows me to maximise each of those two halves of me in those two groups. And maybe like never the twain shall meet, I don't really, because that because the Hemispheric Views people if I tried going to basketbally, like you know, you and Jason quickly pull me into line by 'Stop talking about that sportsball'. Ah, you know, so it doesn't it doesn't work there either. So I just have to accept the fact that I need to be, I'm two different people. Martin Feld 36:13 And yet, you have this friend in, as you said, 'meatspace', who is at the nexus of both of those things, or a listener of both of those shows. So, when you're together having a discussion or a coffee, or whatever it is that you do, do those two worlds meet? Andrew Canion 36:30 They do, and I find, the two, we probably lean a little bit towards the basketball side, but I don't think that's because neither of us would be willing to go to the Hemispheric Views world. Um, I think it's just the way it has happened to play out. It... he, he is probably the closest to the version of me, like my, the closest doppelganger if you like, that I've ever met. And it's, it's really weird, because it's, you know, I haven't known him that long, but it's like, you think this guy could actually be a really good friend. And it's, I don't want to over over-egg it. But it's kind of cool. It's just a cool thing to have had happen. Martin Feld 37:16 And from here, where do you see or want things to go? Because you're juggling quite a bit, it sounds as a producer and listener. Andrew Canion 37:26 Yeah, I know. I sometimes wonder how long, like and I've, yeah, this is just this side of it. I've also, I've got a real job. I've got a family, two kids, you know, looking after a house, you know all those are normal life tasks still need to be done—still got to go, go to Woolworths and do the grocery shopping. Like, all those normal facts of life thing are there. And you know, I'm doing... podcasting has led to me being an NBL1 basketball commentator some nights as well, fine, check on another thing. So sometimes I wonder: how can I keep doing all this? But every time I get a bit 'ergh' about doing podcasting, or what have you, or even listening to 'em, if I take away the listening, I realise that I miss them. And every time I do a podcast, I realise how energised I get from doing them. And I'm like there's nothing else that I do that I get such like just immediate enjoyment from. It's probably the closest thing I can say is I used to play basketball and there's something about playing basketball that is immediate and brilliant and I miss it every day, even now, because I can't do it and my knees are shot and I'm old and broken down. Podcasting is probably the closest thing I've got to that just immediate performance art, if you want to call it that. You just do it. You know, and especially when you do the recording part of it, you're just doing it and it's fun and you just run with it and it's in the moment and time flies by and you're in that zone. So, I don't, I think whatever I end up doing and however I end up balancing my life I need to maintain this as part of it. Whether, whether the topics and shows stay the same or what have you, but I really, I really enjoy this. And I'm not even an introvert, extroverted! I'm an introvert, so I don't even get why I'm doing it. It makes no sense to me! Martin Feld 39:24 And in all of that, you said that you've also become a commentator. Now that's live—am I correct? Andrew Canion 39:31 Yes, yeah, that is live. Martin Feld 39:33 And that's, that would be another sort of energy. So how did you come to commentate? And what does that involve? Andrew Canion 39:39 Yeah, so this is NBL1, which is the level below the national league. There's the state leagues in each state. They, they've... every one of those games is live-streamed. So they're put on their website and their apps and all that and the game is broadcast, and they have commentators who talk the game as it's streamed out. One or two of those games each week goes onto the Kayo service, which is kind of like the sports... what do you call it? It's like cable TV, but for the Internet age...? Martin Feld 40:10 Yes, sports streamer, really. Andrew Canion 40:12 Yeah, yeah. So that one of those games goes out. So if you happen to be doing that game, you are kind of like the Kayo commentator as well, which is a bit more kudos. So how I came to do that was people in the... so I do it for one particular team, uh the Perth Redbacks. And those people got to know my wife, and then I got to know them through her. And then they found out that I do this basketball podcast, and they're like, 'Hey' (and I used to play basketball), 'Well, you know the game and you can talk into a microphone; well, we need a commentator, so you're our guy!' Like, well, it's very different. I'd never commentated a game. Like, what do we do? And they're like, 'We just do it!' So I just did it and I found out after doing the first game, being nervous about it, went in there and absolutely loved it. It's, like you said, it takes different kind of energy, it's instant. And you gotta like, just talk as you see things. But it was like, I love it so much. If that could be my full-time job, that's, I would love that to be my full-time job. Martin Feld 41:25 I just think it's fascinating that you've brought up this particular order of events, because I think when people think podcasting, podcasting is something that came chronologically in history after radio, and you see more and more people going from radio or some other live broadcasting environment to this on-demand set-up. You've done it the other way around. Andrew Canion 41:45 Yep. Martin Feld 41:46 So, what do you think of that? What do you think of that transition to doing a live thing later—and concurrently, obviously, but moving in that direction? Andrew Canion 41:57 I mean, it's, it's funny, and it's, I mean, I don't really have an answer as such. Um, it's more just a reflection on I don't think that I would have had the courage or the skill to do the commentary if I hadn't previously done podcasting. So as much as I laughed about those people who say, 'Oh, you did a podcast and you talk into a microphone, you're good to go', to an extent that is true, because I've built the confidence to be able to just talk, right? And sometimes I know, I'll say dumb things, or I'll make a mistake; just push on. Like, just keep going, don't worry about it. And I think I would have been too anxious, and lacking confidence in my own ability to do the commentary, if I had not gone through this podcasting process. So, I'm glad the way it worked out. Yeah, I don't know what else to say, besides that. Martin Feld 42:52 No, no that's fair. So underlying all of that there's a kind of technical knowledge that you have; you're engaging in sports content, which may or may not have anything to do with the tech fandom that you engage with in other podcasts. But how has that technical knowledge helped you? Was that important when they brought you on board? That whole comment of you've been behind a microphone, or is that less so? Andrew Canion 43:16 It actually hasn't been too important? Andrew Canion 43:19 In terms of, you know, the technical skill of you know, knowing, how to edit a podcast and do all those... getting an RSS feed and all those things, totally irrelevant. What, the only real technical skills I've been able to transfer is like, how to speak into a microphone, like just being aware of your, your plosives and pointing the pointy end of the microphone, you know, maybe slightly off axis, getting that bit right, and just minding your levels, you know, as you don't scream too much when something exciting happens. You blow the, blow the levels off... but other than that, it, this, the technical element of managing a podcast hasn't been directly relevant to doing the live-stream stuff. But it has required like preparation. Preparation is the key for everything. So, before every basketball game, that I'm gonna commentate, I do it. I spend, you know, an hour or two in front of a computer, you know, understanding where the teams are at, understanding what storylines are about them, getting to know who the key players and what are their, getting the statistical breakdowns for them. With a podcast you kind of... it's helpful to do the same thing, do a bit of pre-prep and think about what you're gonna and what are the issues at hand. So preparation is key. Martin Feld 43:19 Mmm... Martin Feld 44:35 And there's a lot of research involved, so you've mentioned that it could be (or that you'd like it to be) your full-time job. What do you think that would be like? Andrew Canion 44:42 Being, as basketball commentator, or podcaster...? Martin Feld 44:47 Podcaster, commentator... basically, whatever you're referring to. Andrew Canion 44:51 It would be... you know, I think, I think the time that you would spend in front of the microphone, if you're gonna make a real good go of it, that's the... it's like any endeavour, I think, that's the performance period. But the performance period is probably not the biggest effort period. It's like, if you're an actor, you know, rehearsals take up a lot more time than the show. Or if you're a basketball player, you spend a lot more hours training and at the gym than you do playing a game. And I sort of think this stuff, if you want to do it professionally, and you want to really hit a home run, it's kind of the same thing. It's about doing your work behind the scenes. Martin Feld 45:37 That's a great message, I think, for anyone who's looking at actually getting into podcasting; there is a lot of effort. On that, I think you've given me a lot of great history and views on your different fandoms and how you've produced and listened. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about that you would like to mention or something in your own story that's gone unnoticed? Andrew Canion 45:57 Um... I think probably the thing that we haven't really spoken about very much is Hemispheric Views, as the podcast that we do together. Martin Feld 46:07 Sure. Andrew Canion 46:07 And I think I just want to make it really clear that it has become, it's, it's a true joy. And that show is, I think, something unique and special. And I think the biggest thing, the biggest problem I have with it is because it's so unique and special, it's really hard to explain to people what it is. And I find myself—what is our show? So I, I have a hard time promoting it, because I don't quite know how to encapsulate what this thing is. But it's a show that, like any of these things over time, it builds its own momentum and its own personality. And I think it's it's it's a classic example of how these, these sort of fan-based enterprises can develop and build lore around them. And, again, I don't want to overcook it, and I'm really get patting both of us on the back at the same time, so it's a bit of a... it's not very Australian thing to do, is to say how great we are, but I really think it's a cool show. And what it has done for me is it's it's really given me like a new lease on life, in a sense. I... and I look at, you know as you and Jason and sometimes I catch myself because I'm like, I'm too old to be doing this stuff like why? Why would you want to talk to me as an old man, and its like, I keep saying if only I'd done this show 10 years earlier, it would have been way cooler because I would have been younger, but then you couldn't do it 10 years ago, because it wasn't a thing that could be done. But yeah, I don't know, I just think Hemispheric Views is an amazing show and it's given me, it's taught me heaps about podcasting. It's taught me heaps about communicating. And it's given me an outlet for a area of passion of mine that I didn't have previously. It's, it's, I love it. Martin Feld 48:00 And something you want to continue doing, it seems? Andrew Canion 48:03 At least for a little while, yeah, yeah, we need to make, as long as… Martin Feld 48:06 Yeah! Andrew Canion 48:07 And it's so funny, yeah, this is one of the other things I guess with, you have Hemispheric Views, and we have the One Prime Plus stuff, which is the, the Patreon. This is not paying its way, right? We've never even, we've never even really emptied the tin of where you know, the money that's in there. It just sits there and it doesn't... I think it's kind of like, I would be very happy with it being just as it is, or I'd be very happy if it was suddenly paying me $200,000 a year, right? In the middle somewhere, like where you're kind of, it's kind of half a job, but it's not a full job, I think that would be the worst outcome. At the moment, it's a hobby, and the people who really love it contribute a-... it was almost like it's a 'thank you'. It's, and that's all it is. And that's how I think it should be seen—this is not our job. And I think that's what makes it special. Otherwise, it becomes a job, and then it's a totally different beast. They're the two angles. I'm just really thankful we're not halfway, halfway in between, where we don't know what we are. Martin Feld 49:07 You think that would kind of dilute the passion? Andrew Canion 49:09 Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it would make it... who's, who are we serving? You know, because then you start to get into the: are we are we serving advertisers; are we serving listeners; are we serving ourselves; are we serving, you know, are we trying to get big so we can go into YouTube and really become famous? What are we doing? Whereas at that the moment is quite clearly evident that we are a small group with a passion, and we're doing this as a passion, passionate enterprise. Now, if it's like I said, if suddenly it goes to like we're each earning $200,000 a year, I'm not going to say no. And I'll take it. But it would change the show. Martin Feld 49:47 I wouldn't either. I wouldn't either, to be honest! Andrew Canion 49:50 But it would change the nature of things. Yeah, it'd be very difficult to maintain it. And you'd have to be cognisant of the fact that it was a different thing, with different pressures, you know? Martin Feld 50:01 Now I'm mindful of the time. Andrew Canion 50:02 Yes. Martin Feld 50:03 And I don't want to take you away from important family commitments. And I think you've really summed up Hemispheric Views beautifully there as that kind of group case study that we have. Is there anything else that you wanted to say before we wrap up? Andrew Canion 50:18 Um... not really. I think the only thing I'd say is my whole podcast adventure, it's been a long, long meandering journey. And I think that if you had told me, when I first started listening to Adam Curry, if you said, 'Andrew, eventually you're going to be sitting here talking about, talking to a guy in Wollongong about a podcast that you both have, and you're doing basketball commentary', I would have just been PFFF! mind-blown. But I also would have thought, that's pretty damn cool, and that's not going to happen, because I'm, no way do I have the skills or the courage to do any of those things! And yet here I sit. And I think that's really fun. And it never would have happened, without podcasting. Martin Feld 51:02 That's a great way to sum it up and I think it's a good message for people who are thinking about pursuing their interests to just do it. Andrew Canion 51:07 Yeah, yeah. And like you, Martin, you're doing it and you've got like, 20 years headstart on me, so yeah, the world is your oyster. Martin Feld 51:15 Oh, it's not a competition, but thank you, Andrew. I think that's your that's your sport persona coming out there. Andrew Canion 51:19 Just don't get into NBL, OK?! I don't need any more competition! Martin Feld 51:24 Alright, I think you're pretty safe. I'll steer clear. But look, this has been great. Thank you very much, Andrew, for sharing your story on Really Specific Stories. It's been a pleasure. Andrew Canion 51:33 Absolute delight—thank you.