Really Specific Stories: Gaby Santiago Duration: 40:18 SPEAKERS Martin Feld, Gaby Santiago Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you so much for joining Really Specific Stories, Gaby; it's wonderful to have you on the podcast. Gaby Santiago 00:26 No, I'm so happy to be here. I'm really excited about it! Martin Feld 00:29 Thank you so much, it's really great to have you on. Now, first question, you know what's coming: Gaby, how did you first get into podcasts? Gaby Santiago 00:39 Ah, OK. So... I want to say was back in 20... 2012! I remember that I had this job that I, that I needed something to listen to, or something that I... that it was mindless, that I needed to just listen to something that it was just not music, because I mean, I love music, I cannot live without music—but, there is something else. And then I was also getting into the whole iPhone, Apple ecosystem kind of thing. So I was reading a lot of Apple-related stuff, and um listening to a bunch of shows from iMore, and it was like uh iMore, and then it was Debug and all, all those shows that were people talking with developers. And that kind of got me into the podcasting world. Like ju-... I just wanted to know about the behind-the-scenes of people making things. And I think that was my first like, exposure to listening to podcasts and that kind of stuff. And of course, everything expanded from there. Martin Feld 01:47 At this time, were you already quite a tech fan or did you become more of a tech fan through listening to these shows? Gaby Santiago 01:55 I've always been a tech fan but I wasn't like, following very much, like I wasn't like super-involved in these things. But having that information available, like that kind of people talking about things, it wasn't very exciting. And it was also about telling a story. In the same time that I was um, getting into podcasting because of technology, I remember at the time, I also was getting back into comic books. Martin Feld 02:27 Mmm? Gaby Santiago 02:28 Because it was it was around 2012/2011 when DC rebooted the whole universe. And sorry, now I'm getting into the geeky side of things. And I remember that it was, um one of my favourite artists is Greg Capullo. He was tweeting about his work and whatnot and then he tweeted about he, how he had this amazing podcast with Kevin Smith, that he was doing Batman. Um, it was a, it was a show he was, ah, it was Fat Man or something like that I can't remember right now. I think he's still doing the thing, but it's a different concept. But at the time, he was interviewing creators, like editors, or artists and Greg Capullo, was in the show. And he was telling his story, like how he came about from being a fan to being an artist and working for DC and drawing Batman or whatever. And that's what got me into podcasting: it was listening to the stories of how people became what they are nowadays. And still to this day, like yes, I listen to your regular, like, people talking about technology, what kind of stuff and that's super-interesting to me. But if you have a story to tell, that's what grabs me the most is like, just that story—how you, you overcame everything that you had, all the struggles in your life and became the person that you are right now or the technologies here now, the artist, whatever it is! Martin Feld 03:56 That's really cool, and I'm interested to delve a bit more deeply into what you said about loving comic books and that story element that connects to podcasts as well. When did you start to love comics and what do you enjoy about them? Tell me about your fandom. Gaby Santiago 04:13 I've always been a fan of comic books and, and, and, and that kind of stuff. It's just that, I think 2011 marked a very specific point because DC rebooted everything and it was like the perfect timing into jumping into things because it was everything new. They we're telling the stories from the get-go and that kind of stuff. And Fat Man on Batman was the name of the podcast, I, sorry, I remembered. And he would have just not just Greg Capullo, he will have a Dan DiDio or he will have Zack Snyder; he will have all these artists and all these people that will tell the story of how they do the things and their inspiration behind every every story, every drawing. Gaby Santiago 04:59 And as a comic book fan, it's a very interesting thing for me to know about and listen to, the same way that in technology, I remember at the time I was listening to a show, for example, like I mentioned before, Debug, I think it was Rene Ritchie, and (what's his name?), uh, Guy English, interviewing people, like, one of the creators from Tweetbot—how they made the app and that kind of stuff. And one day, I remember listening to, they were, uh, interviewing Marco Arment. And he was talking about how he created Overcast and why he did. And I remember listening to that episode, and he will say why he made the app and whatnot. I'm, just, next thing I know, I'm downloading the app, because now there is a story behind it. So, yeah. Martin Feld 05:51 So you feel motivated to engage with content or products, when you have an idea of the person who's behind it or what their story is—that's a motivation for you? Gaby Santiago 06:03 Yeah, it is very much. I mean, sometimes I like something just because I like it and it sounds good and whatever. I read something about it, if I hear the story behind it, and the motivation of the person making it, I mean, it's like omg.lol. I mean, I discovered that of course, and then I, you guys on Hemispheric Views interviewed the guy, and and then I'm like, 'Oh, my goodness, so this is this is just another nerd making stuff!’ And it's like you're invested. Martin Feld 06:36 Mmm... Gaby Santiago 06:36 Like it's not just you're using something because, 'Oh, someone said that it was cool, blah, blah, blah...' No, you hear the story, you hear why it was made, and I want to invest in this because I know the story behind it. That's what I find about podcasting so fascinating is people telling, telling a story. Sometimes it's just: this is why make things; this is why we draw things; this is why we make this music or that kind of stuff. I hope that makes sense. Martin Feld 07:06 It makes total sense. And I can really relate to what you're saying because stories give you that context, or you feel like you're meeting or knowing people through the content that you're listening to. You said a lot there that I'd like to talk about or follow a bit more. Gaby Santiago 07:20 OK. Martin Feld 07:20 But I want to go back a little bit earlier to that first part of your answer there, when you talked about listening to Marco Arment and discovering the Overcast app. Gaby Santiago 07:30 Mm-hmmm. Martin Feld 07:30 That's obviously a big step or change in your listening, because that's an app that is now containing all of your shows—you're discovering or subscribing to things through this app. So can you tell me about how things changed for you, or some of the things that you started listening to (or learning) as a result of downloading Overcast? Where did your story go once you downloaded that app? Gaby Santiago 07:54 Well, once I downloaded that app, it was, uh... I can't remember which app I was using before that. It was probably Pocket Casts, but once I downloaded this, and then of course, besides just downloading the app there comes a lot of the community after that, like, you know the people that use the same app, people that are drawn to the same interest-... interesting things. And Twitter is a big part of it because of course, people are like, 'Oh, I'm using this app or listening to these shows'. There is, like, these um, small communities in, um, in private chats or iMessage. And I remember like, of course, because I downloaded that app, there was a lot of shows related to that app slash community—people doing the same shows. Martin Feld 08:45 Yeah, so you're saying that the app is kind of a shared point, and then you discover people through communication linked to that. Gaby Santiago 08:45 Like uh, you have your, uh, ATP, you have your Connected, you have... and I remember discovering all these shows, because of after I downloaded the this app, because at the first, at first, I was just listening to maybe some iMore-related shows, and, of course, Kevin Smith and comic-book-related but then as you get involved into into the community, then you find the other shows. And then you find the other topics. And that opened up more listening, more interest. And to this day, a lot of those shows I still listen to. And some of those, of course, interests change and that kind of stuff. But it's interesting how just downloading one app, and people talking about the app can get you to other shows, or other type of topics that you can listen to. And I always found that interesting. And it's not like the app itself is like the best source for discovery; it's just people are talking about around it... if that makes any sense. Gaby Santiago 09:53 Mm-hmmm! Martin Feld 09:53 Yep, that makes total sense. And you said that there are some shows that you didn't listen to as much anymore; there are some that have continued to this day; what are the shows that have persisted and are still in your feed these days? Gaby Santiago 10:14 Technology shows are great and I love it. I mean, I'm like, almost all of us are a sucker for them. But at the same time they can get, OK, they're probably talking about the same thing—even the different shows, same topics—and, but the ones that persisted has always been the ones that tell a story, even if it's a show about not so much like, crime show stuff and stuff like that, but any show that tells a story about someone in a situation, a topic or an event that happened, like, those are usually the shows that that have persisted throughout the years. Of course, I'm a fan of specific shows, technology shows, like people and of course, I will always listen to those because I find a connection. If any show that tells just like a story, I always find it fascinated by stories, I don't know. One point in my life I was I actually wanted to be a story teacher or something like that. Martin Feld 11:19 Mmm? Gaby Santiago 11:20 Because I always found like their storytelling very compelling—but I will say that those are the shows that persist in my in my feed, because it's not just about the same topics over and over, it's just something always new, like something has new story, a new take on something, something formative. But then again, as a nerd and... and a geek, I love my technology shows. It's just maybe maybe there're not as many in my feed as I used to have, like I have my three shows, um, and that's it. Martin Feld 11:58 Three, specifically? That's the number? Gaby Santiago 12:01 Ahhhh... four. Martin Feld 12:03 If you don't mind my asking, can I can I ask what they are at the moment? Those four that are blessed with the top tech status...? Gaby Santiago 12:10 Of course, ATP is one of them. I've been listening to that show for so long that I feel like I'm part of the crew in some way. Uh, The Rebound is another one. I don't know why it's, like, I can listen to those guys just talking smack all the time. It makes me laugh every time. Of course I listen to, uh, The Talk Show—three of them, right? And I think that's it, as far as like something that I consider pure technology because I mean, I of course I listen to Hemispheric Views but Hemispheric Views, I don't, I don't consider that like, 'Oh, this is a tech show'. It's like three amazing people talking about their interests and what they like, and I'm like, sometimes when I listen to that, and that's the other thing about different podcast shows, like, feeling that you are in the conversation, even though you're just listening! Gaby Santiago 13:07 Many times I listen when I'm driving around, like, I'm out loud, like saying something that is a part of the conversation. Of course, the hosts don't know that, because it's recorded, so that's another good feeling about podcasting: it's like sometimes you feel so related to the topic or the people that are talking that you feel like you have your own thoughts about it. And I'll be honest, like, sometimes if the show has a Discord channel or something like that, sometimes I will pause the show, make a comment about that specific thing, even if I haven't listened to what's coming next, because I feel like, 'Oh, my God, I understand what you're saying and this what I want to want to say about it! This is my take on it!' And then I post it and then I'm like, 'Oh, yeah, they they actually touched on that point too!' I don't know why I feel like in... some shows can get me engaged in such a way that I don't wait to listen five minutes after that, and I just want to say something about it. Martin Feld 14:09 Hey, that's really interesting, and look, thank you for mentioning, I'm flattered that you bring up Hemispheric Views. That's really, that's really kind. As far as Discords go, that's really interesting because people talk about this intimacy that you've spoken about with podcasts—feeling that you're connected to those hosts—but the fact that you are listening, it's going that one way. So Discords or similar groups like Slack or other messaging apps... Gaby Santiago 14:12 Mm-hmmm? Martin Feld 14:16 Is that a deciding factor for you when you're listening to shows? Is interactivity with those producers, or other listeners and that community really an important feature for you as part of the experience? Gaby Santiago 14:47 It isn't but if it's available, it's even better. Martin Feld 14:51 Mm-hmmm. Gaby Santiago 14:51 I have another example: I, there used to be this, uh, show that I used to listen like every week; it was called, uh, Pixelated Podcast. It was a video game podcast and, and I know these guys and like, I know one of them in person. And it was the same, like every time, they will talk about something and they do have a Discord channel. And it was, 'Oh my god, I totally get what you just said in the episode!', and they will, and that's another reason why I love Overcast: it's because you can get a clip of sound of that specific thing that are saying at that time and I can clip it, share it and say, 'I understand what you said here'. And it is not something that I wish every podcast I listen to would have when it's available. I love that interaction. I love that, to let them know, 'Hey, I heard what you said, and this is my take on it, and I want to let you know', but obviously in a good way, not, not every criticising or anything like that. It's just like, 'Oh, my God, I get you'. So, that involves me a lot in these shows when there is that possibility to reach out and say something. And I think that's why I love what you could say, quote unquote, smaller shows, because they do have that community available. For bigger shows, yeah, you have that community, but you, it's behind a paywall, most of them. And then the only way to reach out is via Twitter or Mastodon nowadays because Twitter is almost dead, as they say. So yeah... Martin Feld 16:32 I totally understand what you're saying there in terms of the community aspect. And I want to pick on this word 'community' a bit, because I'm sure there are people out there—and it doesn't have to be tech fandom, it can be any kind of online community—people go, 'Oh, community?, Is that really community? How are people talking to each other?' When you use that word 'community', what can you tell me about the different people you've met online, linked to this podcasting interest? Gaby Santiago 16:57 Definitely, I will say, like, I have connected with people because we have a shared interest in the show. I maybe have posted something or tweeted something that, praising a show with people like, 'Oh, I love the show too!' And, and then it turns out that we are all in the same group chat or something like that. And we all, like, even even in group chats that I that I am involved with, sometimes I'm like, 'Oh my God, I, you need to listen to the show! It's so amazing!' Gaby Santiago 17:24 And they're all like, 'Oh yeah, I've been listening forever!' Gaby Santiago 17:27 I'm like, 'Oh, why didn't you say so before?' But if you don't ask, you don't know. But I find the community, whether it's your personal, private chat, or, or something, people share their passions, and people share what they like, and there're shows that we talk about. There're all these things and that's how I discovered new shows that I never knew they existed. I feel like that way is much better than just: open your app and see what's suggested to you. It's it's that, 'Oh, I listen to this show and this is why I listen to it, and this is why you should listen to it!' Gaby Santiago 18:07 And they will, 'OK, I'll check it out!' Gaby Santiago 18:09 And then I'm like, 'Oh my God, this is the best show I've ever se-... I've heard in a while.' I think that's what I love about that aspect of the community, but also there's the community that we all listen to the same show and we all have something to say, and we just talk about a topic and then like, 'Oh, what, what about this or, or that?' And it creates this discussion and a healthy one, of course, because people, I gotta say, most of us are involved in these communities and following these shows, we're all nice people, or at least I would like to think that we're all nice people. And it's not about just trashing or saying bad things about, it's just like, just expressing how much we love something or I agree with something and and I will say that sometimes by listening to a show, we bring some topic in the Discord or whatever medium and it's like we have an issue and people bring ideas or, 'Ah, why you don't go about doing this or that or...?' Gaby Santiago 19:13 And I guess even the hosts of these shows, if it had that kind of community and they have a problem that they discuss on the show, I'm pretty sure that there's going to be someone that knows about it and help. 'Hey, this is what you can do.' To me, that sense of community is so important and so useful, not just for the for the listener, but also the people that are making the show because, I mean, talk about something on the show and you talk about what you know but then you have your audience that can say, 'Hey, this is something you can do', or something they can actually advise about something that you didn't know. Martin Feld 19:49 When you're talking about the community here, you've made me think about what you were saying about being into comic books and no doubt you have other interests as well, other hobbies. Gaby Santiago 19:57 Mm-hmmm. Martin Feld 19:58 What has your experience been within the tech community (and these different apps centred around these shows that you're talking about) versus other connections or communities around different interests online? Has there been a different experience for you in the tech community versus others, or is it much the same? Gaby Santiago 20:16 It is a little bit about the same, I mean, then again, within the community, we all share one, you all share one interest. But at the same time, we all have a different interest that maybe we don't talk about or present as much. Like, for example, for me, it's comic books and that kind of, that kind of medium. And every once in a while, I will mention something to quote unquote, my community. But at the same time, it's just, to me specifically, it's like a interest that I have that might not be for everyone else in my group, and I just, and it's also good to have your own niche interest. I just know I'm mentioning, I'm talking too much about it. Currently, I don't have many shows that I listen to (as I used to) about comic books and that's kinda sad, just simply because a lot of them have gone away and also I've been so so away from it, which it makes me so sad. As a comic-book enthusiast as I used to be, like, I don't go to the comic-book store every Wednesday when the new ones come out anymore. It's it's kind of sad, actually, now that I think about it. Martin Feld 21:34 So when you do get a chance, what comic books are you reading or trying to maintain? Gaby Santiago 21:39 I've always been a Batman fan. I mean, Batman, Superman, just because, and it's always interesting, because when you're, I—this is what I feel—like, when you're a kid, you're much of our Superman fan, because he can do all this magic, all these things, like, and then when you grow up, you're more a Batman fan, because you realise, like, he's just a dude, and, but he's super-smart, and he's a badass. But then also, like, I'm always drawn to, uh, indie creators. Like, uh, um, Image, they're usually like, uh, you might have big names from DC and Marvel, but then they will do their own thing as an independent creator, under the Image logo. And I those are also very attractive, because they're very specific type of stories that you will not have on a big book, or like in DC. And it had, like, there was this show, it's called Pick of the Week. I don't know how they do it but apparently they get a bunch of comic books every week, and they read them, they talk about him, and I always find that their take very interesting because it was not just about the big two, which is Marvel and DC, it was, you have Image and other independent books, and I will discover series of books, because of those shows. Gaby Santiago 23:07 Because of course, DC and Marvel, they will have their... you will see them everywhere. They will promote things and that, that kind of stuff, but then these more independent ones you would not necessarily know unless you're really deep into comic books, or listen to shows that talk about not just the big two, but also this stuff. And I discover many books that to this day, I may read or I have read many of them and I know they're still going on and I'm like, 'Oh my God, I'm so behind, and I need to get back into it!' One of them is Saga; it's one that is, it's like a, I don't know even how to describe it, but it's one of those books that is still going and it's been years. And every time someone mentions it, I'm like, 'Oh my God, I need to get back into that book because it's so good!' But then again, that's my, besides technology, that's my passion. That is something that I, even if I'm not actively reading or looking for these books, I still listen to these shows because they give me an idea of where to jump in or what to look forward to. And of course if there is any spoilers, I might skip this episode because I really want to get back into the series, but I don't want to them to quote unquote, ruin it, because they're talking about it. Martin Feld 24:31 Yeah, I'm not a fan of spoilers either. When it comes to listening to podcasts, whether it's ones related to comic books or technology, uh, you said that sometimes you can't always keep up with comic books. Since you've reduced the number of podcasts that you listen to, particularly with technology, have you found it easier to keep up with what's going on and listening week to week or month to month (whatever the schedule is), or do you find it challenging to keep up? Gaby Santiago 24:58 No, definitely, because the, one of the reasons that I had to shrink down my, the shows that I was listening to, is because many of them will talk about the same thing over and over. I mean, it will be three different shows talking about the same topic. So it's like, OK, so now at this point I need to which host or which show I feel more attuned to, and then, OK, so this is the people that I, like, I'm not rolling my eyes every time you're talking, for example, and is easy to keep up. For example, I think, in my opinion, like, The Rebound, for example, there's just three dudes talking about, oh yeah, they talk about the news on technology, what's happening. But the way they do it is like, I feel like I'm just with them just hanging out. They're just not talking and being all these professional, blah, blah, blah. And that's why I like that show, for example, and there are other shows that, maybe they will talk about something recent that happened, but it's not super-formal, it's just just make fun of it, for example. I find that more interesting that someone that will be super-serious about technology, and then bring their um, their opinions about it. And that is, and it's like, they're super-picky, and I don't know, I don't like complaining shows! Martin Feld 26:23 You want a bit of positivity? Gaby Santiago 26:25 Yeah, no, I prefer like, oh, Apple, for example, just picking Apple because like, 'Apple did this and it sucks and that's about it'. Move on! Martin Feld 26:34 Yep. Gaby Santiago 26:35 Spending an hour on why it sucks.... Martin Feld 26:40 So you gave a good description of The Rebound there and you mentioned it was three guys talking about technology. You also mentioned Accidental Tech Podcast, which is also three guys talking about technology each week, and you also said earlier in your story that it was (or it has been) one of the longest lasting in your podcast feed. It also connects to Overcast in terms of Marco Arment being a co-host and the developer of that app Overcast. What can you tell me about your experience of listening to Accidental Tech Podcast (or ATP) and what are some of the things that you get out of that show? Gaby Santiago 27:14 ATP, I will say that a lot of the things that they talk about may go over my head—to be honest! I love technology and it's a passion for me, but I'm not so savvy as those people are because this you know, they're very... and I think what makes me still listen to it is because I don't know how to explain it, but it's like, even if I don't understand exactly what they're talking about, it's: there is some charismatic thing to it that I, that I like, especially when it comes to if I had to relate to any of them in the show, it would probably be Casey. I feel like he, there are many things about the way he expresses and the way he talks and the way that he feels about things that are very attuned to the way I am. Gaby Santiago 28:03 And also, they can also get very personal in their shows and I feel like I've known these guys for years now. Like, I remember one point that Casey was talking about how he and his wife, I think they were having like issues like having a kid and whatnot, and at the same time it was when we were having our first kid. And of course something happened but and I and it was that sense of relationship there, like, 'Oh my God, I get what you're saying about this, your personal thing. I get it!' And I think that's one of the things that just keep me back to shows. Yeah, there are many things that they talk that I'm like, 'I don't care what you're saying about that, or I don't understand', because I'm not that smart, I guess. But it's just like, I've been listening to them for so long that I feel like I, I know these people and it sounds kind of creepy sometimes, when you, I know these people that have never seen me and they would never know that I listened to them. I find it super-interesting when you can actually interact with the hosts of the show in some way. Like it gives you that, 'Oh my God, they see me! I'm a fan! Yay!’ Martin Feld 29:17 That's a good point. It's it's nice to feel seen or be able to connect to people who you're listening to all the time. And thank you for sharing that personal detail about how you related to Casey; that's maybe not easy to share. Now, you said it's nice when they see you or you reach out to them or try to interact with them. You mentioned things like Discord before, but I'm interested in the case of ATP (as a case study within this project), you're listening to them. Gaby Santiago 29:42 Mm-hmmm. Martin Feld 29:43 Do you interact with any other elements of their podcast? What other things are you aware of or engaging with or is it mainly just the show for you? Gaby Santiago 29:54 At least for a show like that, it was just the show and I mean, I had reached out eventually, uh, at some point on Twitter, for example, to any of them, like, 'Oh my God, I listen to this, how you said, and I totally get it', and it'd be like a 'like', or yeah, 'Thank you for listening', that kind of stuff. But at the same time, like, they're just people that you have in your head, they're so high up—that you hold high up. I mean, they're just people just like you but they're these names, and they have this follow-... they have so many followers that you feel like, if you can reach out to them, and you get at least a like, it's just enough to say, 'They see me'. And I get it, I mean, these people have so many followers that you can't reply and engage with every single people that they say something to them. But this is kind of a complicated thing, the way I think about it, but every time that I have an interaction with a host from more shows is like, 'Oh my god, they see me; they know I'm listening; they know I'm invested'. And it feels it makes you feel great about the fact that you reach out and you got something back, then, um, you keep listening to the show, you keep getting invested because you you you feel a connection, if that makes any sense. Martin Feld 31:12 It makes total sense and you've really well described that feeling of the community and how you can connect with people and feel seen. When you go beyond the community, what do you share about your fandom, whether it's tech podcasts, whether it's comic books, what do you share with other people in your life or is it kind of held within? Gaby Santiago 31:33 Of course, my wife will be the first one to hear anything about what I'm excited about. Like, 'I was listening to this podcast and they talked about this'! And of course, she will listen and she'll, even if she's not interested, she will pretend she's listening—maybe she's really listening and I'm just saying that she pretends, so—and, and, and we work too, like my co-workers, like, 'I have been listening to this podcast are they were talking about this!' Gaby Santiago 31:57 And they all get it like, 'Whoa, oh what?! They said this...?', or whatever, and maybe not being in the tech side of the podcast, it will be something else that I'm listening to at the time. But it's, I always feel like I need to share my excitement about, again, they said this thing in this show and I need to share it with someone. And it's funny, because sometimes I will share something with my wife, for example, and then she will be weeks later, she's like, 'What is the podcast that you told me they were talking about this? Because I talked to someone else and they want to listen to it'. Gaby Santiago 32:31 And I'm like, 'Ahhhhh, see?! This is why it's important too!' And I get people around my life into podcast shows because of that, because I share something. I'm very enthusiastic about things, and I share it and then they get into the conversation and someone is like, 'I need to listen to that because Gaby did!' And I find that kind of funny and interesting at the same time. Martin Feld 33:00 So you're a bit of a trendsetter? Gaby Santiago 33:01 I guess... I don't know. Martin Feld 33:05 That's great. And look, you're obviously so invested in podcasting, you know, you pass the time, whether you're connecting with hosts and other listeners. How would you like to see podcasting (as a medium) develop? Do you see more for the medium? Are you happy with how it is? How do you think about where it's going? Gaby Santiago 33:26 Honestly, so far, I'm fine the way it is right now? Well, the only one thing that scares me a little bit is, like, all these big companies trying to make some shows exclusively for their platform. And I fear that that's something that is going to continue in some way. Like, all these big shows, like, they're gonna get bought or move to a specific platform, and I see that a lot in a lot of shows that I listen to, that they, you can listen to the show, they have ads, of course, because they do. And then they say, 'If you want to listen to this show with without ads, subscribe to this platform, so you can have the show and you can binge-listen to the show instead of waiting for each episode'. And that scares me a little bit, but I don't think, like as far as independent shows, like people doing their thing, I don't think it's going to change much. I mean, I'm, for one, that I'm someone that I would like to have my own, not show, like my own podcast, like my own thing that I can open the computer, get my microphone on and just talk about something and just put it out there even if some, just one person listens to it. Martin Feld 34:41 You've considered doing that? Gaby Santiago 34:43 I have! Martin Feld 34:44 Oh, you have? What can you tell me about that? Gaby Santiago 34:46 Actually, during the pandemic, I probably recorded, like, three or four shows (episodes) and I microcast using Micro.blog. And it was like I was so bored in my house, working from home alone that I needed to. And literally, the show or the episode was like a 10–15-minute thing. And it was me talking to the phone walking around the house. And I felt, 'That's so nice! Like, I mean, I can do this!' Like I, and yes, I might, the quality wouldn't be as good as a well-recorded, edited show because to be honest, I probably, uh, recorded the same conversation three times before I decided to post it. But then again, it was like a 10-minute thing, like I could, it's easy to recreate. It's not like a two-hour show. Gaby Santiago 35:40 And still to this day, like, I will like to just sit down and do something, like I feel like whatever creative side of my head is, wants to do something, and I would like to put it out there. I would like to record; I would like to talk; I would like to express my something. I'm not sure exactly what it is but I feel like I need to create something—the same way I had this each for blogging back in the day. OK, I wasn't blogging, I wasn't putting anything out there, I was just writing for myself, and then one day I said, 'OK, just,, just make a blog and put it out there'. So same thing with podcasting, like I would love to just do something, I, and then again, I haven't figured out exactly what it is, but it's something I would like to do too, something I would like to be invested on. Martin Feld 36:29 Well, I'm glad that you brought that up, and uh, I'll make sure that I do a bit of a proper search (unless you'd like to give the links?) so we can put them in the show notes. Um, that might be interesting to share or see what people think, if you're comfortable, so people listening can, can find that. So, I think that's great that you've brought that in at this point, because you've listened to so much and it's good to try (if you're willing) to do something or produce it. And I'm fascinated by the fact that you said you enjoyed it and did it in your own way. Is there anything that I haven't asked you about or that you'd like to mention about your experience as a listener or producing your own stuff that you'd like to mention? Gaby Santiago 37:07 No, just the fact that I feel like I have this itch to do something, and I'm, be part of the podcasting community in some way, even in a very small way, that I have not been able to figure out how I want to do it for sure. I mean, I, only if anything only being like a guest, you know, a show or two. Uh, I feel like I'm very talkative. I like to talk to people. That's another thing, like, I don't know, maybe if I can have someone to talk with on the show or something like that, or share something. Yeah, and still, I'm still figuring, trying to figure that out and there's something that hopefully in the next month or so I will get into it, 'OK, this is what I'm going to do, this is going to be my thing, and this is what I'm going to produce, this is what I'm going to put out'. And then again, it's more for my own enjoyment, rather than having an audience. I know there are shows out there that they prefer to have an audience or they need a community and I get it. But for me in particular will be something I just want, it's a, it's an itch that I need to scratch. And even if it's just one person that listens to it, I'll be fine with it. Martin Feld 38:20 I think that's a great attitude because you have to enjoy what you produce for yourself... Gaby Santiago 38:24 Mm-hmmm. Martin Feld 38:24 ...even if there isn't an audience to go with it. It has to be for, for you first, so I can definitely understand and relate to that. And I hope that this experience being a guest on Really Specific Stories has been an enjoyable part of that. Gaby Santiago 38:37 Oh, no, this is great! Like, I think this microphone that I bought works, I hope! So, it's just a matter of, like, uh, having a set-up. I'm like, 'You all leave me alone get away from the house, I don't want to use the car'. And uh, my thing I mean, and then again, it's like, maybe it's not that, maybe it's just me walking, then again, me walking around the house just thinking out loud and recording. And if there's kids' sounds, that's what you get! Martin Feld 39:11 Well, look, uh, one of my greatest worries in producing this podcast is the sound of Australian birds in the background, which I'm sure there are right now, so you sound great to me over the recording at the moment, so I should be the one apologising for any birds that make it in! Gaby Santiago 39:23 Oh no, you just lucked out because everyone is sleeping here. Martin Feld 39:31 OK, that's great. Look, this has been a lot of fun, Gaby, I've been really grateful to hear about your story. If you're comfortable, I think, uh, we can bring this conversation to a close. Gaby Santiago 39:42 That sounds good to me. I don't think I have any more to say. Martin Feld 39:45 Beautiful, well, thank you so much for sharing your story and um, your experience as a listener and now it seems a producer and we'll make sure to include a lot of the things that you said in the show notes. Gaby Santiago 39:56 If I can find them, yes! Martin Feld 39:58 Pressure's on! Thank you so much for taking the time, Gaby. Gaby Santiago 40:00 Yeah, no, thank you for having me. It's, it was a lot of fun!