Really Specific Stories: Manton Reece Duration: 47:03 SPEAKERS Martin Feld, Manton Reece Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you so much for joining Really Specific Stories, Manton; it's great to have you on the show. Manton Reece 00:26 Thanks for having me. Good to be here! Martin Feld 00:27 Now I'm going to ask you the first question that I ask each guest, and that is: how did you first get into podcasts? Manton Reece 00:34 Oh, great question! Let me rewind back in my mind a little bit. I followed blogging since the early days and what Dave Weiner was doing. And so I kind of was around paying attention when podcasts got started, when RSS was kind of envisioned, and he started experimenting with enclosures and automatically downloading things to your computer, or iPod, and of course, podcasts came from the iPad—iPod!—which is no longer a device that is sold, but we have the 'pod' that lives on forever, probably. And so I was kind of paying attention. And I did a couple experiments with just around the podcast space. Actually, one funny thing I always think about is this tool I built called Podcast Shuffle, which was just kind of silly, but it shows how much podcasts have changed, I think, in the years since then, which was, you know, whatever, 15, 20 years ago, however long that was. And it basically crawled some directory of podcasts, and just made a podcast feed with a random podcast for you to listen to, just from all the podcasts that were out there. And that would just be silly today, because there's so many podcasts (who knows what you're gonna get?) and, and you probably don't care about it, because you can go find your own podcasts that you, you know, that are topics that you care about pretty easily now. But back then it was just this random experiment to like, 'Hey, here's a podcast, here's what's out there, try to try listening to it!' And so I experimented with some things like that. Manton Reece 02:26 And then I did record a few episodes, four episodes of a podcast just for my own self that was like, the show was like 20 minutes per episode, and it was about like, one topic. Like I talked about trains, once I talked about video games once, and just kind of experimenting. And it was highly edited, it... like listening again now, I made a lot of mistakes with the editing and the sound quality. But the idea was to go for like more telling a story, and not, not kind of an interview show or a like, off-the-cuff show (so it was more scripted). And then fast forward a little bit and I started a podcast, Core Intuition with Daniel Jalkut. And you know, we knew each other from the Mac, and then iOS developer community, and we've been doing that show ever since. So that's that's a, I think, in a nutshell, that's my, what comes to mind with podcasts when I think about it! Martin Feld 03:27 I love that and there's already so much to discuss! Manton Reece 03:30 I threw a lot out at you at the beginning, sorry! Martin Feld 03:33 No, no, that's great. So much great detail! Even just the word 'shuffle' there... I love how much kind of... on brand that was maybe for that particular era. Maybe you preempted or followed things like iPod shuffle, but... Manton Reece 03:45 Yeah... Martin Feld 03:45 ...yes, certainly of the time that uh, that that happened. Before we get to Core Intuition specifically, I'd love to know a little bit more detail, maybe, in that early period: what was it about on-demand audio and things like RSS and experimenting with these tools that you were doing? What was it about those technologies that captured your imagination? Manton Reece 04:07 Yeah, I think it just felt really new and interesting, and I was into blogging, and it was kind of a natural next step. You know, I was already you know, had a RSS reader where I was subscribing to people's blogs. And then it just felt natural that 'Oh yeah, of course, I want to actually subscribe to people's blogs that are, that are audio—audio blogs. And an 'audio blog', actually, I think was a kind of a term that was thrown around a little bit at the time also. And it just made sense. And also, you know, there were certain activities, and I would say it was true at the beginning of podcasting (and it's still true today), where you're out and about, you're in the car, you're walking the dog, you're doing chores, there's all these things that everybody does, uh, that it just fits to listen to something. You're not at your computer; you're not staring at your phone. And it just felt really natural and exciting too, uh this was kind of like a new technology but it was based on something that I understood well, and that just, I don't know, it just felt like it was, it was here to stay kind of. Manton Reece 05:18 At the time, there were also a lot of experiments that didn't really pan out, like video podcasts never really took off but I remember subscribing to some video podcasts because, of course, podcasts, you know, the technology behind podcasts really has nothing to do with audio files... like it's just a way to tell your device to download something, you know, offline. And it could be an image, it could be a audio file, it could be a video file—could be whatever. And so some people were experimenting with video podcasts, and I remember—I think it was, there was a show Merlin Mann did a show for a little while—and I remember like watching it on my TV, like TV, somehow, I don't remember! Martin Feld 06:05 Really? Hmm... Manton Reece 06:06 I don't remember like, I don't know, maybe it was like, it must have been before the Apple TV, so I don't know how I hooked that up, the deep technical details. Maybe it was when the first Apple TV came out but technical details are lost. But I just remember, like, people experimenting with like a video show that was powered by RSS and that, like, I feel like that never went anywhere. It was just kind of an experiment, and I don't know if it didn't go anywhere because video is turns out really hard to do well, and there's lots of bandwidth and storage, and it's just, it's difficult. I don't know if that was the reason or if... or if it gets back to the one of the things that is, just resonates with people about podcasts is what I said about being offline and away from your computer, and you know, taking a walk and just listening in the car and all these other things. And video doesn't work for those things. Martin Feld 07:00 After you said the word 'shuffle' earlier, I'm also glad that in this series now the Apple TV has come up and I'm assuming you're referring to the first one, which was essentially like that silver Mac-mini-inspired thing? Manton Reece 07:11 Yeah, that must have been it! I, I will have to refresh my memory about what was going on, like what year that was, but I remember watching some of these on my TV, so that had to have been when the first Apple TV came out. Martin Feld 07:25 No, I loved that thing, because uh, it was kind of cool for the time, and I remember that it got so warm that you could probably fry an egg on it. That was a fascinating point. But yes, the whole Front Row interface and that little white iPod-shuffle-style remote. I remember that very well. Manton Reece 07:40 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 07:40 Now, you've brought up an interesting point about podcasts being something that you'd listen to while you're doing something else: walking the dog, cooking, other kinds of activities. When you were listening to podcasts, you said it was the natural next step from blogging, using that RSS infrastructure. When you think about the content and the themes and the genre of what you were listening to, was technology as a topic, also that natural thing for you, or were there other things in your sphere? What can you tell me about that? Manton Reece 08:12 Uh, for things like what I would want to listen to or follow? Martin Feld 08:16 Correct, yeah. Manton Reece 08:16 Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think there were definitely a lot of podcasts that even, as today, that leaned very technical, but there were also people just trying things. And I remember one podcast that always stuck out to me. Oh, there's like a couple things I can think of... I remember, um, Brian Ireland, who I used to work with (a friend of mine), haven't seen him in a long time, but he did a podcast in the early days, it was more like a radio show. Like, 'I'm gonna, I'm gonna play some songs, and I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to talk about this!' And I'm sure there's stuff like that now, but I remember that sticking out. It's like, 'Oh, that's an interesting use of podcasts!', more like a traditional radio show. Manton Reece 08:59 And then the other one that I always remember, and this isn't something that I would have, I would like seek out, as like, 'Oh, I'm really looking for this and want to I listen to this'. I don't remember the name of it but it was someone in a priest in Europe, and he did this podcast where he would he would kind of talk about religion but more than that, he would just talk about like his day and he would, I remember he would just like, be biking through like Rome or wherever he is, and you could hear the sounds around him and you got a feel for like, where he was and what was... and that was just, I loved that. It was like a window into his life briefly. I wish I could remember the name of that one. So, there were things like that and because there weren't that many podcasts in the early days, I feel like, it was in a way almost easier to accidentally find a podcast that was interesting that was outside what you would normally listen to, where now I feel a little bit stuck in, you know here are the tech podcasts I listen to and you know, these, had I just... I feel like I don't branch out quite as much, maybe, just because there's just so much—where do you start? Martin Feld 10:11 That's an intriguing point, because something I think we hear a lot about in podcasting today is how discoverability needs to be enhanced, but you're suggesting that discoverability was maybe more serendipitous or easier in the earlier times. Is that right? Manton Reece 10:24 Yeah, well, it's almost because because it wasn't easier in that if you were looking for something specific, you could find it easier, it was, it was more like you would accidentally stumble on something. Whereas now, I don't think you accidentally stumble on podcasts very often. If you want to find a podcast about something, you know, like, there's a book you're reading, and then you, that author, you know, you want to know everything, every interview he's been in, or she's been in, or there's a cooking thing you're interested in, like, you could easily I think, kind of go into some of these podcast directories and find shows that are relevant, but maybe you don't accidentally stumble into them. And that, I guess it kind of ties into that, that silly tool, I built, the Podcast Shuffle, that just randomly giving you a podcast to listen to! And even, and it wasn't even a podcast, it was just just one episode, so then it was up to you, if you'd liked it to go figure out how to actually subscribe to that podcast. Martin Feld 11:25 So on top of that tool for shuffling that you've mentioned, how did you make that transition from being an enjoyer (or a listener) of podcasts and making tools for discovery to actually making them? How did that spawn from your technological fandom? Manton Reece 11:41 Yeah, I guess it just seemed like something I should experiment with and try. And, you know, I was blogging pretty often. And it didn't, the way I started podcasting was not like we're talking today—you know, where you and I are talking and we're going over topics—it was, I kind of scripted, like, this is a topic I want to talk about. And so what I was really interested in doing was like pulling together like soundbites and audio from different things and putting them together in like one show. And so I only did, I think four episodes, and it wasn't like once a week, it was like months, you know, would go by because it took a long time to edit them and put them together. So for me, it was more like a blog post in audio form and the reason it was better than the blog post was that I could say, 'Now I'm going to splice in this clip of something else'. Manton Reece 12:39 So like this trains podcast, which I still kind of, it's got problems when I relisten to it now but like, I still kind of have a fond place in my heart for it because it was fun to do and it kind of captured the kind of the time I guess that I was living in, um things I was interested in. And I mean, so it was like, I would have train sound, sounds in the background; and I would have like clips from like, you know, Disneyland and you know, just like different things like that put together; and that was really interesting and fun to me. You know, it was, it felt like a new medium, kind of like creating something new, but it was still, is still kind of, it felt like blogging plus audio... it still kind of felt like that to me. Martin Feld 13:22 And maybe I'm being presumptuous here, but what you just mentioned about soundscapes reminds me of the podcast that you mentioned by that priest with... Manton Reece 13:30 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 13:30 ...atmosphere in the background. Was that kind of an ode or homage to that podcast? Manton Reece 13:34 Maybe... I didn't think about it—I don't think—consciously, but I'm sure I was inspired by that kind of thing. And also, like the NPR-style of public radio shows like that, like those that are really well done, I am sure was an inspiration to and mine does not match the quality of those shows, but you know, those like, very scripted, you know, well-edited, like we're gonna tell you a story, and we're gonna put together interviews or sound clips and you know, different things together. I'm sure that was inspiration too. Martin Feld 14:08 Well, I know that it's a lot of work because in the podcasting than I do, most of it's conversational, we might drop an audio clip in very occasionally, but it's a totally different story, as you say, to actually collect different things and piece it together. So... Manton Reece 14:21 Yeah! Martin Feld 14:22 ...I don't blame you for not doing it weekly, or you know, some other more often schedule! Manton Reece 14:26 And I mean, I mean, part of the fun I had with it too was I recorded a bunch of those things myself. So, I would go like on a trip, like I did one of my episodes was about San Francisco. And so, I was in San Francisco for Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference, and I had my little portable microphone set-up and I recorded things, you know? I remember like walking through Chinatown and recording audio of, you know, what's going on around me and recording like the sound of the cable cars and just like, you know, things like that. And so, it was almost, as I think this through, it was almost like, it was almost more of like an excuse to, like, go out and record things and put them together. Martin Feld 15:13 Mmm! Manton Reece 15:14 And so that, but but it was just so much work, you know, it's like not something, and that's why I did four episodes like there's, it requires a lot of work. It's not something you, most people could just put together in a few days, I think... Martin Feld 15:27 Interesting that you bring up the Worldwide Developers Conference, because that event these days is quite a different beast, it's, you know, streamed and now they've brought back that physical element for those who can go post- (or later in the) pandemic. Manton Reece 15:41 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 15:41 When you were there in those early days recording things and experimenting, was podcasting something that you recall, came up a lot, or that other people were trying to experiment with? Did you discuss it much at events like that? Manton Reece 15:53 I don't remember exactly; I'm sure we must have been talking about it; I don't remember. I'm sure, I'm sure we were... I'm sure because I feel like podcasts in that kind of, you know, developer community kind of tech world, they were probably more popular there than in the mainstream. So I'm sure we were talking about it, but it was, like the iPhone, hadn't really... uh, I should have looked at the dates, but I think, I think my first podcast predated the iPhone. Um so you didn't have you know, apps like we have today—podcast apps that are the primary way most people, I think, listen to podcasts. So I mean, you did, you know, iTunes built in podcast support and that was a big boost for podcasting. And that was actually in the WWDC keynote, they announced the new version of iTunes with podcast support. So, so yes, we must have been talking about it, and that must have been... I feel like everyone in the community must have been clued into that but the details are a little bit fuzzy, in my mind now. Martin Feld 17:00 No, no, that's fine. I'm asking you to cast your mind back quite far, so don't worry about that. Now, when we started this discussion, you did mention the show Core Intuition, and WWDC obviously, has that big crossover with other tech fans, Apple developers, just Apple users in general, how did you come to start making a show like Core Intuition, and... Manton Reece 17:25 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 17:25 ...can you tell me the process really about becoming a producer in that? Manton Reece 17:29 Yeah, I think this is something that Daniel and I wish we had documented better, about like how we got started. I know, you know, we had met at the conference and I'm pretty sure we had met before we started the show. And we were in, we were in an IRC chat with some people, meant for, you know, it was kind of like Slack. A lot of people are in Slack channels now and IRC was more popular back in the day in the Mac developer community. And so, we were like chatting and kind of staying in touch and... for some reason it popped up that like we should do a podcast together. And I, like I said, I wish I knew what prompted that! But it just, I remember we were just chatting and like, 'Hey, we should do a podcast!', 'OK, let's try it!' Manton Reece 18:21 And so we record, yeah, we recorded a show and we weren't sure exactly where it would go. And I edited it and I thought it turned out pretty well. And you know, we put it out there and it was around WWDC too, because I know when WWDC comes around, usually in June, every year, I always remember that was kind of like the anniversary of our podcast coming out too, because I believe the first episode was maybe a week or two before we went out to WWDC. And so it was a nice time to talk about, like expectations, and like, what do you think Apple's gonna announce and what are we working on? So we did that, yeah, we did the episode and there weren't a lot of Mac developer podcasts at the time. There were a couple, but it wasn't like, like it is now with a lot of podcasts that are really focused on Apple announcements and following Apple news. And so we did it, the response was good and it was great to you know, run into people at the conference. And they had checked out the show. And then we just kind of kept doing it. And at the beginning, it wasn't as regular as it is now; we didn't have any sponsors, and a lot of times we would record a show and then I would kind of drag my feet on actually editing it and putting it out. So sometimes a month or two or more would go by before a new episode. And then eventually we we got sponsorships and that really pushed us to keep the show going regularly every week because we need to be held accountable to someone else that wasn't just us. And uh, so we've been doing the show ever since and it hasn't changed a lot, to be honest, it feels very similar to that very first episode we did: the format and kind of the things we talked about are really similar. Martin Feld 20:15 You brought up sponsorships, uh, which I suppose, given what you just said that the show hasn't changed too much, the major element that's changed is the sponsorship... Manton Reece 20:24 Yes! Martin Feld 20:25 ...both and maybe how it sounds and how you've been motivated to produce it. Manton Reece 20:29 Yep. Martin Feld 20:29 When you started doing sponsorships, how did that change the feeling of what you were producing, or how did it make you think about your role as a producer relative to the other things that you do in your life and the other work that you do? Manton Reece 20:42 Yeah, I, so the the main thing is, it turned it from something fun we kind of do whenever we can, to more of like a small business. And so there were the, the format, I feel like the format we were, we stayed pretty consistent on like, the theme music at the beginning has never changed. Like the, we introduce ourselves and we talk about a couple of topics and we have, you know, a couple of breaks in the middle. And the main change was like the break in the middle, we now talk for a couple minutes about our sponsor. It was great to push us to keep the show going but it did add some paperwork, and some, just like the things that come along with running a business, you know, invoicing, following up with sponsors. I mean, I think Daniel would agree with me that we are like, notoriously bad at, like marketing and like reaching out to potential sponsors. So we were really lucky that some sponsors just kind of fell into our lap. And I think that was easier in the old days when there just wasn't that many podcasts, also, so you could kind of demand maybe higher sponsorship rate, you didn't have to work quite as hard to find sponsors. Now, there's so many podcasts that um, I feel like it maybe it's a little bit more difficult. And our listeners we... you know, we, we've kind of grown a little bit and then like maybe lost some listeners and like as there became more choice for people. Manton Reece 22:08 And it's never, we've never had the huge listeners that some of the tech podcasts in the Mac world have—you know, things like The Talk Show with John Gruber, Accidental Tech Podcast, those kind of like really big podcasts, some of the podcasts on Relay FM that are popular, like we've never really reached that level where, where it's just... it's, so it's kind of stay... if I don't know how to describe it. It's kind of, it's a business, but it's small still, where it's not something we can dedicate, you know, full-time, like we're running a podcast network, where we could contract out like someone to handle, you know, marketing and invoicing. It's like, it's not at that level, but especially when we have like a sponsor that has been really consistent, you know, like they will sponsor every two weeks for years, it is like a business and there is money coming in and invoicing happening. And I want to say that doesn't change how we talk on the show; I think that's true, but it does maybe change a little bit how we approach the timeliness of the show, how we approach just, uh, you know, we can't be lazy and just like, just like talk every once in a while and put at a show. We actually have to be consistent with it. Martin Feld 23:28 Now, you mentioned audience as well, which is interesting, because yep, new ones have come and gone, there are big shows, there are small shows. When it comes to other projects and things that you do such as Micro.blog—which, uh, listeners would probably be familiar with, uh if they follow you in any way—how does that kind of cross over? Or do you find any cross-pollination between different audiences or services that you have, given that you are so active on the web? Manton Reece 23:57 Yeah, I think so! And I think there's some people, I've been really happy to see people on Micro.blog that never had heard of me, never listened to, you know, my podcast. And actually, they're not developers, they don't really care that much about, like the topics that Daniel and I talk about, but they still tune into the show because one of the things that's great about podcasts, I think, especially, you know, just like as we're talking now, and some of these other similar shows where you feel like people are sharing kind of personal stories, you feel a connection to the hosts, even if you've never met them. And maybe you've only followed them online, you feel you have like this little window into what they're thinking and maybe they don't share everything about their life. Like personally, I don't share online, everything. I don't share very much about my family or just kind of more private things (except very rarely), but you still feel like you kind of have a little snapshot of what this person is going through. Manton Reece 24:55 So, I feel like we have some of that crossover with Micro.blog where I know we have people from Micro.blog (from the community there) that listen to the show. And even if they don't really care about the topics, it just, it's it's another kind of interesting way to follow someone and I feel I do the same thing. You know, I have podcasts I listened to, you know, where I don't know the people, I don't maybe even totally care about what they're talking about, but it's, there's some kind of connection there. And I, I guess I would go even back to like that podcast I mentioned with the priest. Like, that's not a topic that I would just search out, but I just felt like I knew this person almost, you know, it's like they're, like I said, they're like walking through the streets in Europe, and like, I hear the sound of the market that they passed. And it's just like, really fascinating way to connect with someone, I think. Martin Feld 25:50 I'm really intrigued by what you were saying about the level of stuff that you share online, in your accounts, or in any kind of social media sphere. If someone were to come up to you and ask, what is the podcast that you do, Core Intuition, what is it all about? And really, maybe this is a level of detail to far for such a question, but who are you or what do you do on that podcast? How would you describe what you do and the persona that you've created for yourself? Manton Reece 26:17 Interesting! Yeah... I mean, I guess I would, I would talk about like, the theme of that show has always been like independent developers, like, we are just two people, trying to build apps, mostly by ourself, and make it work financially, and just, you know, our sanity. And, and that theme has actually been there from the very beginning, when I was not really independent at all, like I had a full-time job working for another company. But then, kind of on the side, I had this other life of working on my own things. And you know, that's not uncommon, you will have a lot of developers or people in any business where you know, they've got a hobby or something on the side that they maybe would like one day to turn into the thing they really do. And so, that was always a little bit of a conflict at the beginning of the show; it was like, we were really talking about being independent developers, but I did have a regular job and, and I always, I always felt a little weird about that. Manton Reece 27:23 I wasn't hiding that, like sometimes on the show, we would talk about my job and the things I was doing, but it kind of felt pretty good when I actually quit my job. And the only thing I'd talk about was my own apps, and then Micro.blog as independent business. And so I think that independent developers are really the focus on that show of like, the things that we go through, as just people trying to figure this out, and that, it's not, that's only a part of my life, obviously, but it's a huge part. So like everything on the show, I feel like we're really honest and we don't try to, I don't know, hide anything or make it sound better than it is like a lot of times we will go through topics that are just, they're difficult. I mean, we don't want to depress our listeners, we try to keep it fun, entertaining, but it's like we talk about—I hate use the word 'struggle', because it's like, we're pretty lucky, that's not an actual struggle—but the difficulties of like running around business, trying to get apps out, trying to fix bugs, trying to respond to customers, just like that real stuff that actually happens. Martin Feld 28:29 And as an independent developer, that major business that you're running, I mean, not just yourself—you have other people supporting you, but it is really you as the founder with Micro.blog—I feel like you've kind of gone full circle. You mentioned that idea of experimenting with tools for podcasts and delivering things to people on demand. And now with Micro.blog, of course, that's a blogging platform and very flexible, and you can do different posts and design all that stuff, but one of the options that you have on that site is to actually launch and distribute your own podcast as a user. Manton Reece 29:06 Yep. Martin Feld 29:07 So what led you to introducing a podcasting kind of service or distribution mechanism for Micro.blog? Manton Reece 29:14 Yeah, I, of course, love podcasts. And I got into this idea of like, what if podcasts were short, like some podcasts? And so I kind of said, like, let's call them 'microcasts', you know, where they're really like short podcasts. And I started, I've completely... somehow I forgot about this when I was describing the podcasts I do, but I started a podcast that I called Timetable, and the idea was: they would be very short, like five minutes; and I would eventually try to do them often, like every day or every couple of days. And I would document the process of building Micro.blog, writing the book that I promised Kickstarter backers, and I would just go through things and I and I also I wanted to experiment a little bit in that format, like that five minutes, because it's so short, it's easy to edit—it's quick. And so you can do other things. So I remember, I did—very similar to my old podcast—I did things like when I was like mailing stickers to people that backed Micro.blog at Kickstarter, I like recorded the sound of like the mailbox, you know, like, you know mailing the envelopes. And I recorded, you know I recorded a couple, at least one show like in the rain, like we can hear the sounds and like, I just experimented with stuff like that it was fun and easy, because it's five minutes. And it takes five minutes to record, you know, maybe a few more minutes if there's some stuff you want to cut out. And it's very quick to edit, because it's just five minutes long. And so I love that idea. Manton Reece 30:48 Unfortunately, I've gotten out of the habit of doing that. But, but that really, that idea got me to thinking, well, we could host that for people, it's only five minutes. There's not a lot of bandwidth and storage constraints. Uh it's, it's not that much different than hosting a photo, or a few photos for someone, and it's short, it's quick, the audio file is small, like we could do that. And so I got really excited about that idea. And I think that was the first Micro.blog Premium feature, where we charge a little more than normal subscriptions ($5 a month). And I said, you know, we're gonna charge $10 a month, and you get podcast recording. And we've added a whole bunch of things to that premium tier since then, to make it more valuable. But that was the launch of it. Manton Reece 31:34 It's like we're gonna let people host their podcasts, they're going to be short and let's see what people do. Because if they're short, people can experiment, they can try things, and maybe we'll get people podcasting, who just couldn't deal with it before. Like, it was too daunting. You know, you look online about how to start a podcast. And first they say, you know, spend $300 on this microphone, and this mixer and these special headphones, and you know then buy audio recording, editing software. It's too daunting for some people like, they should be able to just record quick show and put it out there. And that was the goal and that's still the goal, with that plan, we've increased the limits a little bit, so you can record longer shows—half an hour, 45 minutes or an hour, whatever—but that was the goal. And that also, we made an iOS app called Wavelength, which was going to try to further that goal of like, making it really easy to hit 'record', maybe cut a couple things out, quick editing and then publish it. Just like microblogging is supposed to be a quicker, easier way to blog short things, that would be our approach for podcasting. Martin Feld 32:52 So ease of use was a huge focus, I'm, I'm hearing that and when you think about other services that enable podcasting, whether it's, you know, things like Anchor, or otherwise... Manton Reece 33:04 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 33:04 ...how did you think about designing something like podcasting on Micro.blog through tools like Wavelength? What kind of ideals or goals did you have maybe beyond ease of use, if at all? Manton Reece 33:16 Yeah, mostly just making, I guess, making it easy to go, I guess ease of use is the big thing. You know, making it making it more approachable for people, so it doesn't feel like a big leap from, you know, I'm typing things in and hitting 'publish' too, I'm recording something quick, and publishing it. So a lot of that is just managing the RSS feed for the podcast and you know, by default, Micro.blog, if you're, you upload an MP3, like, it just does everything, like you don't need to do anything else. You don't need to enter anything. You know, it just it takes, if you haven't entered a podcast name, it just uses your, you know, your blog name, You haven't entered a blog name? It just uses your name! And it, you know, it creates the feed, and you just don't have to worry about it. It just does everything for you. And of course, there's more tinkering you might want to do and customisation, but that was the idea, is just take care of the basics, so they don't have to worry about it. And I think we had somewhere it's probably somewhere still in our marketing, but we had this phrase like 'Everybody has a story to tell; put out your ideas, thoughts, stories' (whatever). Manton Reece 34:24 The idea was, hopefully that some people would find it just more natural to record something and publish it, than type it up. And, you know, it's, for the most part, I think that's worked out. We're definitely not, you mentioned Anchor, they're much bigger, and of course, they're acquired by Spotify now, they have, a huge um, you know, force behind them. And they've done a bunch of interesting things that were just way out of scope for what we're able to do with just just a couple of people. Wavelength was developed by me and my friend, John Hayes, who has helped with a bunch of Micro.blog projects, whereas, you know, I'm sure Anchor has a team of a dozen people, and they've done a bunch of interesting things with multiple users and editing. And they're, I'm sure there are other tools like that, that are even beyond, you know what, what we've been able to do. But I think there's something to that, you know, making it more approachable. And if you even go back to those early days of podcasting, you know, Odeo had... they, they were a company that Twitter was spun out from, like, one of their first products, you know, was like podcasting basically, how do you make it easier for people to podcast, where they just load up a web browser, and you can record a show and publish it. And they were probably a little too early, or maybe a lot too early, like five or 10 years too early. But they had a really cool product, they were a little early, it didn't quite work out, so they pivoted and now we have Twitter. But I think there is something to that idea of just making it easier for people to publish audio online. Martin Feld 35:59 You make a great point that some people might find it more natural to speak or send out a microcast or Micro.blog or Twitter... uses like that, where you're just putting out quick bites or shorter posts. That can be easier for people, I totally understand that. And in that response that you just gave me (and I don't want to lose that point), you said that it can be harder to type something out that's extended. And I recall that you also mentioned the book that you put out on Kickstarter. What led you to write that book and how would you explain the experience of writing an extended piece like that? Manton Reece 36:35 Oooooh... what led, I don't know, what I was thinking when I decided to promise that! Uh, for people who are not aware, that book is four or five years late being published, so I, I am not one to listen to for advice about how to write a book and publish it. Yeah, the... long story short, it it has grown into a huge project, whereas I meant for it to be something short. And one of the reasons I, I decided to write a book was because I thought it was a good fit for Kickstarter. I thought, Kickstarter is often about like creative projects, you know, you're putting out a book or you're or some art or you're designing a game or like, kind of like real things that are tangible. Like, you know, backers can, they back the project and they get something in the mail, like, the... that I felt like that was a good fit. And one of the goals with Micro.blog, and the idea of indie microblogging in general is just to, like, get this idea out there of, 'Hey, don't put all your stuff on Facebook and Twitter, like put it on your own blog!', and and how do we make that easier? And, and just how can we build better tools around that? Manton Reece 37:53 And so a book fit that pretty well, I think, because it was like, not only am I gonna build this platform, Micro.blog, but I'm gonna put out this piece of writing that's like, here's what I believe the world should look like in terms of blogging and social networks. And it was maybe a little too ambitious, because it has grown into a much larger project. And it just kept kind of spinning out of control with just like, now I've got chapters and chapters on, you know, how social networks work, and just, it'll all be worth it in the end. But it has taken a long time to get to that point. And it's not, like I don't think I'm, when I described—getting back to your question—I described people that might have trouble writing something out, I don't think I'm one of those people, like I don't think I've ever had a problem, have... falling into kind of a good routine with blogging and writing. And my posts now on my blog definitely tend to be more short, quick Micro.blog posts and photos than longer kind of essays as they might have used to be, but I still have some of those. I just, I don't think I've ever had that problem but I know some people do. Surely there are some people out there that just, podcasting is just a better fit and it just feels more natural. I know there are people out there because a lot of the podcasts I listen to, those people are not writing online very much; they, it just feels better for them to just kind of speak and let their thoughts kind of flow. Martin Feld 39:23 Yeah, and without entirely spoiling the book because naturally I assume you want to sell some copies or get people looking at it on the Web as well—um, if someone were to ask you: what is that vision for the Web that you have? (Because you said that part of it or a motivation was communicating how you think, you know things like social networks and services should go.) Where do you think they should be heading or in what shape should they be? Manton Reece 39:46 Sure! There's, well, first of all, I am not going to sell any more copies, so we don't need to worry about that. Martin Feld 39:53 OK! Manton Reece 39:53 The draft of the book is free online at book.micro.blog, so people can read the... it's, it's not the final draft, I've made some improvements that will be in the final version, but you can read it all for free. I basically made the decision that I am not a full-time author, and I don't need to sell this book indefinitely as a revenue source, so I sold all the copies that I'm going to sell, you can't buy it anymore. So there's no problem! Like everybody who bought it will get a copy, and everybody else can read it on the web for free. And that's, that's where it's gonna end. Um... just because I didn't want this other thing to manage. But I'm getting off, I'm getting off topic a little bit. Manton Reece 40:34 The basic premise is: the kind of the vision for the Web going forward, having... there's a problem with concentrating so much power in like just a few tech companies. And one of the solutions is reclaiming some of your content, putting it in your own domain name, putting it on your own podcasts that you control, and having more ownership of that so that you can move it around to different services without breaking the Web, without breaking links, and without relying on, you know, Twitter or Facebook to tell you what you can and can't post. And on the same hand, kind of the flip side of that is having social networks having networks like Micro.blog, or other platforms that try to bring people together, but have them smaller. And if they're smaller, and you also have ownership of your content, like get your own domain name, these social networks can be a little more proactive about what kind of community do they want to encourage, and they, they don't need to be afraid of like, you know, this person, that hate speech is out of control, we need to tell this person to leave. They can do that because there are other social networks out there. There are other blogs, other, you know, places they can host their content. Um, and so having that flexibility, I believe, with smaller networks would actually enable better, healthier communities. And so that's what we're trying to do with Micro.blog. And that kind of, that theme kind of runs through the book of like, content ownership, but also how do we approach social networks and these platforms so that we don't just recreate these big, massive platforms that just have so much control over the content out there. Martin Feld 42:15 Well, as someone who enthusiastically uses Micro.blog, I can say that that vision sits pretty well with me. So I get where you're going with that, absolutely. Manton Reece 42:24 Thanks! Martin Feld 42:24 And when you look at that book, and you think about the podcasts that you've mad, and continue to make, and running Micro.blog, and all the things you've said about independent development over the course of your career and consumption of media, what do you think are some of the top things that you've learnt or the ways that you've changed in all that you've done? Manton Reece 42:44 Oooh... now that I have Micro.blog, it's like, it's the thing that I've kind of maybe in the back of my mind, my career has been building to, you know? Like things I've been interested in, kind of coming together in this one big project that I see myself working on, until I can't type you know, on a keyboard anymore—like I, I've, I feel like it brings together a lot of things I was interested in, over my career, with blogging, with podcasting, and new things that I didn't know I was interested in, like, with, with having a community of people. But that I find really fascinating now and an interesting challenge. And so, it really, to me, it feels... I've been doing this for Micro.blog for five-ish years now. Like I said, I think 10 years, 15 years, like, I don't see myself getting burned out or bored with it. And I don't see anything else coming along, that would pull me away from this idea. And like writing the book, I think is only reinforced that, in a way, is just like, feeling really strongly and passionately about some of these ideas about the open Web, being more active in the IndieWeb community, which is all about this kind of thing, and own-... you know, having ownership of your content and different open standards where we can have blogs and websites interact and communicate with each other through open protocols. Manton Reece 44:10 Uh, it's just, uh, it feels good to have something that I just really believe in, and that I could just keep working on. Like, there's no doubt, it's not like, I feel really lucky; a lot of people, they're not sure if they're gonna stay at their job, they're not sure what their next thing should be, like, I feel really lucky that I have something that I think I'm pretty good at, you know, things can always be better, but like, my skill set has prepared me well over the last 20 years for building this. So I think I'm kind of uniquely capable to like, if someone's gonna do this, why not me? Like, I think I can do it, and I love it. And it's very rewarding and there's always new things that that I feel like we can bring to Micro.blog, staying true to that early vision but still kind of expanding in different ways. And podcasting, I think was a big part of that, too. It's like, it might have felt like, branching off into something different to some people, but to me, it felt perfectly in line with what Micro.blog was about. So like, anytime we can add a feature that just fits perfectly into the vision by giving people more tools, I love that. And I feel like there's still going to be more things like that with Micro.blog that we can bring to people. Martin Feld 45:29 Well, I think that's a fantastic summary of not only your career, but general philosophy and motivation. I'm not sure I could really make you say much more than what you did. Uh, but with that in mind and everything that we've discussed, is there anything that I haven't asked you about, or something that's really important to you in the world of podcasting, or the open work that you do on the Web that you would like to discuss? Manton Reece 45:53 Uh no, I think we've covered a lot, actually, and I'm really glad that you had me on the show, because it's gotten me to kind of delve back into my, into my mind a little bit and try to dig up some of these things, 'cause it's... once you get started talking about this, sometimes it you know (I don't know how the brain works), but like, I feel like there's connections that are made and then all of a sudden, 'Oh, I remember that thing I did, and that other thing!' So there are probably other things, but I'm, I'm really glad we got to dive into some of that stuff. And I can't think of anything else to add right now! Martin Feld 46:26 No, I'm really glad too, and thank you, and look, if anything does pop up after the recording, that's what links in the show notes for, if you uh, if you think of anything! And hopefully the listeners will enjoy plundering that as well, with everything that you've mentioned. Well, with that, Manton, I think that's a great place to end this episode and I want to say a big 'thank you' for joining Really Specific Stories. Manton Reece 46:46 Thanks for having me; it was great talking to you!