Really Specific Stories: Geoff Kim Duration: 31:22 SPEAKERS Geoff Kim, Martin Feld Martin Feld 00:21 Thank you so much for joining Really Specific Stories, Geoff; it's a pleasure to have you on. Geoff Kim 00:25 Thanks for having me, Martin. Martin Feld 00:26 This is great and I want to start off our episode with the question of: how did you get into podcasts? What can you recall? Geoff Kim 00:34 So, going way back. Um so yeah, I think like most people, I started as a consumer of podcasts, I guess. Yeah, no one ever gets into podcasts from recording podcasts. But yeah, as you know, might know that I already produce one time from time to time, but yeah, I think it was like sort of sort of the early 2010s sort of era. You know, this is, you know, the TWiT sort of network—Leo Laporte, Tom Merritt—I think I religiously listened to Tom Merritt, I think he has a separate show called um... this, what is it? DTNS? Daily Tech News Show, yeah.... was very much interested in technology as well. So sort of heading down towards that, um and I would say that was sort of the genesis for podcasts, yeah. Martin Feld 01:20 And what did that do for you, listening to people talking about technology, these two individuals you named? Martin Feld 01:26 Yeah, um I just uh, they kind of break it down and I guess there weren't any mainstream reporting on the gadgets that we sort of were into at the time. So iPhones were quite new, I suppose, back in 2011 sort of timeframe, you know, I was sort of becoming a Apple user more and more, I think. I think I had a... various sort of iPods through the years. But um yeah, iPhone was really it, and especially the sort of the app ecosystem that was building out by then too—kind of crazy to think, only a few years later, 10 years later, like we can't, you know, ever live without these devices and apps that are on the phones. So yeah, kind of crazy, yeah! Martin Feld 02:05 That word that you used: 'mainstream', I find that interesting, and that these weren't mainstream. How did you kind of discover these shows? You mentioned that you were an Apple user... in what order did things happen? Geoff Kim 02:19 That's interesting. OK, so I think, I guess, from being from being a Apple user, I would have been on iTunes. And I think the sort of that TWiT was really the big thing that you saw under the category of technology anyway. Um so that's probably how I discovered it, just by pure accident, I would say. Um and at the time, uh I had a bunch of friends, mostly at work, actually, sort of, I'm sort of in the technology field, we would sort of have lunch conversations about, you know, the latest and greatest things coming out from Samsung, Apple and all those companies. So yeah, I was definitely interested in those things. Martin Feld 02:56 And did much of your podcast listening filter into those conversations with people? Is that something that you discussed openly with them? Like, were they fellow fans? Geoff Kim 03:06 We would, yeah, we would definitely sort of start the conversation by, 'Hey, did you hear the latest, you know, thing about the new, the flat nature of the iPhone 4s [fours] or something like that? And I think uh, from just having those conversations, I think um we kind of decided, so I have a somewhat of a partner in crime, Kelvin, that we started the podcast with. It's called the Naked Tech Podcast. We just decided to give it a go: hey, like, why don't we just record what we talk about? And that's really how it started. And we sort of had to Google like, 'OK, what equipment do we need?' We had to sort of do all of that DIY, we had no idea. If you actually go back and listen to our first episodes, like you can clearly tell we had no idea. Yeah... Martin Feld 03:51 So you were working with Kelvin at that time? Is that how you met him? Geoff Kim 03:55 That's right, yeah. Martin Feld 03:56 OK. So you were listening to similar shows and that's what brought that interest together? Geoff Kim 04:02 Yeah, I guess we because we talked about it, maybe I got Kelvin to check it out and vice versa. And yeah, I think a lot of our, the topics of our discussions over lunch, um even, you know, in between meetings, at the time, we we didn't have the sort of the open-plan kind of offices, we had our own set office, desks in in our office. So we, I think we sat next to each other. So yeah, I think we kind of like, mucked around a lot and talking about technology. Martin Feld 04:30 And that's quite a leap, as you mentioned briefly there, that you're moving from being a consumer of podcasts to being a producer of podcasts, getting all of that equipment. Can you extrapolate or can you expand on that story a bit more about how you went from listening to those shows and came to that decision to create this thing together? How did it go? Geoff Kim 04:51 I think it happened quite quickly and um, quickly in terms of sort of, once we decided we're going to do it, we did it, it probably took a little bit longer to actually get started. To be honest, so I think at the time, you know, in our circle of friends, we had a pretty close-knit bunch of friends at work and uh, you know, they would urge us on, like, 'You guys are talking about this all the time, we come to you for advice on what, what phones to get', that sort of thing. So, it took us a little while, I would say a bit, maybe 18 months, but once we sort of decided, 'Yeah, let's do it', I think it was fairly quickly. I was living in an apartment, sort of in the Surry Hills area, which is close to the office. And, you know, we set up a little studio thing, and I think it was like every Wednesday night, we would, you know, go back and record. Martin Feld 05:36 So 18 months... Geoff Kim 05:37 Mmm... Martin Feld 05:37 ...that's a good chunk of time to really plan and put together a show. Geoff Kim 05:42 Mm-hmmm! Martin Feld 05:42 What were some of the most interesting aspects or challenges of making that transition from being a listener and a guide at work, to running a regular show with a friend slash colleague slash co-host? What was that kind of process like? Geoff Kim 05:57 Yeah, so going back a bit, so that this is uh... I just looked it up: our first episode was late 2014. Martin Feld 06:04 Mmm... Geoff Kim 06:04 So I don't think this was a big thing back then. Like, I know, like every man and his dog is, has got a podcast these days, even even my little cousin has a podcast. Martin Feld 06:12 Oh that's cool! Geoff Kim 06:14 Yeah! Very successful, a lot more successful than ours will ever be, but uh yeah, I guess oooh... I think, I think we just sort of bought the microphones and things: the Blue Yeti (Kelvin might actually be still using that one); I've got a new RØDE microphone here. Uh yeah, that that was the catalyst really and then we kind of had to work out the set-up. Um... I think Kelvin was more of the technical set-up guy; I was the more, you know, production, um cutting all the waveform, you know, editing sort of guy. So, it sort of worked well. We still tend to be that way as well. Yeah, but I think we just we just kind of like, tried it and it worked. We were able to put our stuff onto iTunes and I guess that was really it at the time. There was no Spotify back then. Martin Feld 07:04 Mm-hmmm... and how did it feel having that content that you'd produced together being publicly visible in a directory like Apple Podcasts (or iTunes back then)? Geoff Kim 07:15 Yeah, that definitely had that sort of cool factor didn't it? You know, it was like um, because yeah, like I said, no one really had, knew anyone that had a podcast. So usually, our mates would say, 'Hey, did you know so and so have a podcast?' and you know, conversations with kick off that way. And I think it was like, people used to talk about what they listened to a lot as well, like back in those days, like 2015, 2016. Um is that when uh...? What's that? The crime, crime podcast? The really popular one? Martin Feld 07:42 Oh, Serial? Is that the one? Geoff Kim 07:43 Serial! That's it, I think that was sort of kicking off around then. So everyone was sort of, they knew what podcasts was, maybe they didn't know how to listen to podcasts at the time, but yeah, it definitely had that cool factor. Martin Feld 07:55 A point or a word that sticks out to me that you mentioned is that word 'conversation'. So you're having conversations at work, you're having conversations with Kelvin, you're having conversations with other people about the conversations you're having (or the things you're listening to). There's a lot of talk, it's a lot of people coming together. Those people who you met at work... Geoff Kim 08:15 Mm-hmmm? Martin Feld 08:15 ...and you know, who you were guiding and having those conversations with originally, did they form that early audience for you? Or how did that audience form that you've brought with you since? Geoff Kim 08:27 You could argue that the audience has kind of stayed that way as well! Martin Feld 08:30 OK! Geoff Kim 08:31 For us, we didn't really think about growing the audience. I mean, obviously, we would have loved for that to happen. Martin Feld 08:38 Mmm... Geoff Kim 08:38 We sort of saw this more of a hobby and I felt like at the time, you know, I'll go into it a little bit later, perhaps. But up until, you know, recently, like I really felt it was good for my professional development. Just being able to speak to people (public speaking) was a thing that I dreaded in the past, but now can do that quite comfortably, I think. At some point, I think, as I said, we stopped recording. I think the last episode was October last year. You know, we've had some other things in our lives that happened as well, and the pandemic obviously doesn't help. But sort of lost that drive a little bit recently, but yeah, we're trying to get back into it. Martin Feld 09:17 No, that's great. And what you say about improving your public speaking, it must have certainly helped a lot because I'm some weird stranger who came out of the blue, you know, saying 'I've listened to your show, come on this show!', so it sounds like you did the right stuff. Um 'hobby', that's an interesting word; so when you say you consider it a hobby, what does that word mean to you? Because I know for certain tech people listening, 'hobby' has a funny word within the Apple community, different products they've used that for, and it can have different connotations. So what does 'hobby' mean to you? Geoff Kim 09:50 Yeah, interesting, um... I would say, I guess I said that word without really thinking about it too deeply, but for me um and it's probably different for Kelvin, so... Martin Feld 10:01 Mmm... Geoff Kim 10:01 ...but for me, I would say, you know, just just having fun with it and see what was what I was capable of, from producing something, because talking about technology requires a bit of research, actually. Martin Feld 10:14 Mmm... Geoff Kim 10:14 We found that out very early. So like, you know, a podcast, you just can't listen to anything if you don't really know what the subject matter is. Um so yeah, we would, yeah I actually enjoyed it, you know, putting the notes together. And as I said, I because I'm in the technology field, I felt like I was learning about the latest and greatest things coming out. I could go into meetings confidently and talk about, you know, 'Hey, there's this new thing that Apple is doing, let's, let's use that'. That sort of thing, yeah... Martin Feld 10:44 When you say you work in technology, (if I can ask) is that specifically IT or what, what discipline or field are you in? Geoff Kim 10:50 Yeah, that's a question I get quite a lot, quite a bit, um especially from my family members, but um, it's more sort of digital websites and applications and things like that. I do work for a large bank—I'll just say that—in Australia. So yeah, we're trying to be more of a technology company. We won't not be seen as that way, but yeah. Martin Feld 11:10 OK, so influences and technological interests coming from all directions, feeding each other, I get the, I get the idea. When it comes to balancing this hobby, with the technological work that you do in your paid employment, how do you balance all of that with: I'm assuming still consuming things as well? Geoff Kim 11:29 Yeah, I guess, audio in the last decade has sort of been been the main source of information coming into my brain, I would say. I think your your last episode, Martin, I really resonated with that, because I used to be a massive music listener. So you know, I don't know if you heard of a thing called last.fm—ringing any bells? Martin Feld 11:52 Oh, yeah, I've heard of that site, yep! Martin Feld 11:54 I would say it's like one of the original social media networks. Basically, whatever, whatever you listen to, whether it's on iTunes—I don't think anyone listen to anything on iTunes anymore, but— Spotify, you could, uh they call it 'scrobbling': every track that you listen to, it tracks the artists, the albums, so you can sort of see over the course of, for me, like over 15 years, I have a history of what I've, what I've listened to. Anyway! The point I'm trying to make is like, you know, before podcasts, it was hundreds, maybe thousands in a week. Now, it's you know, barely anything. Um, so that's sort of, I've gone from music listening, like almost my waking days, and uh especially in the office, I guess I can't really listen to podcasts in the office. But the only time I can, if I'm driving I'd be definitely listen to podcasts. If I'm running, I'm definitely on Audible. I'm a big runner as well—thinking I resonated with that bit of your conversation last week. And uh yeah, just sort of lazing around and trying to get to get to sleep, it's definitely podcasts. yeah. Martin Feld 13:02 That's fascinating. So you've undergone quite a transition in how you consume media. Geoff Kim 13:07 Mmm... Martin Feld 13:08 Do you feel different or has there been a change in you, as a result of that shift in media that you're consuming mostly? Geoff Kim 13:15 I don't know about feeling but um, I now have this sort of thirst for knowledge. And maybe I can sort of start talking about the type of things that I listen to now has sort of gone from sort of geeky technology stuff to more sort of science-based. You know, in the last 18 months or so I've gotten into bitcoin as well, um so trying to sort of figure out the whole economic situation and inflation and whatnot. That's a quite interesting thing. But yeah, I just want to learn more about the world, and I feel like the audio format is one of the great things, yeah. Martin Feld 13:50 Is that because you can consume it while doing other things? Or are there other aspects to audio that you think make it more powerful? Geoff Kim 13:58 I watch a lot of YouTube as well, so yeah that's... to answer that question, I would say, I mean, without the podcast, or even the audio format, maybe I wouldn't have been consuming these types of media or subject matter otherwise, so. Yeah, I'd be, I'd be sticking to YouTube only. So um yeah, I guess, I feel like I always feel like time is limited with my consuming of all these things. Um so, I don't I don't have a sort of strict listening uh rotation, per se. But um yeah, I think uh, definitely um heard from last week's episode where like, I'm always like, have to, 'OK, how do I be the most efficient listener with all these things going around?' Yeah... Martin Feld 14:44 'Efficiency' is an interesting word, isn't it? Because listening, I mean, with music, particularly, you kind of associate it with leisure, or, you know, spending time in a personal way. Whereas yeah, if you're talking about information, I understand what you're saying, there's this feeling of needing to get through episodes. and balance it with other things that you're doing. And when you are balancing it with producing things, can you walk me through maybe the process? You mentioned that you're the editing and production guy mainly, and uh you have noticed that Kelvin is more of the (maybe) tech-infrastructure guy. Can you give me a bit of a walkthrough of the process of, you know, like the research and the production and making these episodes that you've done over time? Geoff Kim 15:24 Yeah, so not early on but um, somewhere along the way, maybe I want to say maybe from 2018 or so onwards, we started introducing like audio clips. Martin Feld 15:35 Mmm... Geoff Kim 15:35 So um, I do enjoy the the conversation format—not saying the soundbite and voice but like, just in general on podcast—I prefer the conversational style, just, you know, just like what we're having right now. Martin Feld 15:48 Mm-hmmm! Geoff Kim 15:48 You know, you can bounce off each other and a lot of random things happen, which I enjoy than the scripted format. But yeah, um, we sort of thought about: what, what's our thing? Because I think at the time, there was a lot of Australian technology podcasts. And like, we just actually we kind of copied a format from No Agenda. I don't know if you heard of that one. No Agenda? Martin Feld 16:10 I don't know if I've listened to it but the title is familiar. But yeah, so they were an inspiration? Geoff Kim 16:14 Yeah so this is what they did. It's done by a guy called Adam Curry, who is supposedly that the the, not the inventor? But like he goes by... Martin Feld 16:23 Oh, of course! That's where it was familiar. I understand. Geoff Kim 16:25 The Podfather, I think, uh... Martin Feld 16:27 Yes! Geoff Kim 16:27 That's what it is, yeah. And that's what they do. And, you know, they don't really cover technology so much, but more around the, I don't know, the geopolitics, and they can get a little bit extreme in their views sometimes. But um yeah, it was we sort of copied that format. And yeah, like, I actually enjoyed that part of it. So what I would do is um, just going through my technology, sort of podcasts and YouTube clips, and any sort of like a zinger or some some quote that I like, I would try to clip that, save that for the podcast. And although I would be a little bit rusty getting back into it, but we do have like a, there's an app, which I can't remember the name of actually, like a soundboard type thing. And I would use that to play like a short sort of 20-second/25-second clip, um and then we would have a conversation on top of that. Martin Feld 17:14 And that's a lot of extra work, isn't it? Geoff Kim 17:16 It is, yeah... Martin Feld 17:16 Not only collecting that, but then inserting it into a conversation. And you also mentioned, so you mentioned YouTube, and looking at your site, there is that blend of obviously the website itself with the text and the archive, then you've got the audio show itself. Am I correct in saying you also have Twitch and YouTube? Geoff Kim 17:35 That's right, yeah. So again, Kelvin's department, so he would record the video, he would also live-stream that on Twitch; I think our maximum audience was two people for Twitch. But yeah, I think it's Twitch is a hard platform to sort of grow an audience, in any case, without too much effort, because we just turn up and just play record. But uh, yeah, we've tried to sort of have all of that out there. Whether that helps or not, with growing the audience, but I think, I guess, again, we wanted to just try it out and see what we can do with all of these technologies. Martin Feld 18:10 And it's interesting to me, talking to you now, because when people hear the word 'podcast', they generally think audio, of course, video podcasts and vodcasts (if you want to call them that) have been around for ages, but 'podcast' generally means audio for most people. If you're doing Twitch, that's a live element, or if you're putting it on YouTube, that's another on-demand video element. How did doing video live or on demand change the way that you speak or made you think about producing the episodes? (Or maybe it didn't?) What, how did that factor in? Geoff Kim 18:44 Yeah, so halfway through introduced video, and I think at first I was against it. Martin Feld 18:49 OK... Geoff Kim 18:50 Just trying to think of why... perhaps part of the reason was: to me, like, let's, let's stay pure, and let's stay audio-only. But um, I think it's been good, because if I compare, and it's, I'm a bit of a hard judge, as opposed, because I'm the subject person, but uh yes, definitely different, like watching our conversations on in video format, versus just listening to us. Yeah, I think it's good that like, we sort of provide both those things for whoever prefers that. Martin Feld 19:19 So is it a matter of choice for you? Is that how you think about offering this? Geoff Kim 19:24 Somewhat, somewhat... I mean um, I think most of it is just like, kind of, like what 'Why not?' sort of thing. We have the means: so there's there's plenty of bandwidth; there's a lot of free storage out there. I mean, YouTube is this, you could argue one one of the great inventions out there on the Internet. Yeah, so I think most of it is that, but yeah, like, just just from our friends and colleagues, like when we share things, like say even on LinkedIn, it's always the video format, which kind of resonates more with people. Martin Feld 19:58 So it's an understanding of what audiences want in each sphere... that's what you're trying to tailor? Geoff Kim 20:04 I think so, I think so... just just more the better is, I guess the approach? Yeah... Martin Feld 20:09 OK, that, that's really fascinating. You mentioned a few words again that I thought were really interesting. You said um, being 'pure' in terms of podcast audio and earlier on in the conversation, I recall, you also mentioned that there was no Spotify at one point, that people were just going through iTunes. So, when you use words like pure or thinking about what a podcast is... Geoff Kim 20:29 Mmm... Martin Feld 20:29 ...what do you think, in your experience of producing and consuming this stuff, that a podcast is today? What does it mean to be involved in the medium? Geoff Kim 20:39 I think the most important thing is that conversation, and I think I've probably used that word way too much tonight, but... Martin Feld 20:45 No, it's an appropriate word. Geoff Kim 20:47 It is, isn't it? Yeah... so that, to me, that's the most important and whether that's audio-only or video is, yeah, to me, besides the point, perhaps. Um and I think, you know, you can't you can't watch a video while you're running. So you know, like, it's, it's good to have the audio and the option. And yeah, conversations, like, what what do you miss out on audio? Like you sort of miss certain visual cues, the facial expressions, perhaps, but like uh, you know, audio-only like you really, the advantage of audio only is, and this is what the No Agenda guys talk about, because they never went video, somewhat controversially, is that uh... you maybe hear more emotion in the voice, perhaps, things that you if you relied on facial expressions, maybe you miss out on other things. So it's, I suppose it's a trade-off, but maybe having those options is the best thing. Martin Feld 21:40 So, do your options in consuming content match the level of choice and 'more is better' that you've done in your own production? Have you enjoyed that choice or do you keep it narrow? Geoff Kim 21:51 I guess the way Kelvin and I have decided to (maybe not even without having the means to sort of came came about this way) is that I've sort of taken care of the audio production, and he's done the video production, because there's there's a lot involved with uploading that to YouTube, you know, getting the thumbnails, the artwork, even on Twitch, I think there's a few things which I don't quite understand, because I just haven't done it. So it's sort of, I guess we've, uh I don't know, separated our tasks somewhat. And that that makes it easier. I don't know, maybe maybe at some point, we should just do a swapsies and see how that goes. Um but yeah, I think it's just kind of worked out that way, and we'll probably continue to do that, to be honest, yeah. Martin Feld 22:32 Cool, and you mentioned that you have been on a bit of a hiatus. Um, where do you think, if you do return to producing content, where do you think you want to go? Or what would you like to see happen in your podcasting future? Geoff Kim 22:45 Very good question, um yeah, I would kind of hate to see it just sort of us doing the same same thing. So I do acknowledge that perhaps a change is needed. Um, I think maybe just sort of more in-depth sort of stuff, rather than the sort of the tech news that we tend to cover. Lately, we've sort of tried to focus on particular events, so every year there's like a WWDC from Apple. What else? CES, which is the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas... Even like, like, at times, we were sort of keen on being the sort of the geeks, so it wasn't just technology, but we also talked about like comic book movies, and, you know, Marvel and DC and that sort of stuff. So we would actually cover Comic Con. Martin Feld 23:30 Mmm? Geoff Kim 23:30 I think we did talk once or twice about actually going, but uh, I think I think there's one happening right now. But yeah um, going from those maybe event-based stuff to more in-depth, I don't know, 'What is the next thing?', um maybe in-depth view on where AI is headed headed... impacts to society. And you know, like, I know, like, almost on a daily basis, I hear about at work, how AI is going to sort of take our jobs, that sort of thing. So, I think that's probably where I personally would want to head into, obviously, that requires a bit more work, so we'll see whether that happens or not. Martin Feld 24:06 Yeah, it's that research element and I know what you mean, there are different trade-offs, because to do things that are event-based, it kind of guides the content, or it's time-bound, but then, you know, to not do that you have the freedom to kind of talk about lots of different things. And that's a good point that you bring up about AI and its role in technology generally, or media production or culture. What kind of role do you think is or should be played, or maybe not played in a medium like podcasting? Because you've talked a bit about conversation, and it's really that human thing—where does AI fit in for you? Geoff Kim 24:40 With the lens of podcasts, or? Martin Feld 24:42 Yeah, or media production... Geoff Kim 24:44 Oh OK... Martin Feld 24:44 ...because you're making this stuff but AI's role is increasing. So is that something that you think about? Geoff Kim 24:50 Well, I mean, eventually, like, you know, some podcasts are highly scripted, and you gotta wonder whether, you know, one day, hey, I would be scripting those. But um, yeah, production-wise, I'm sure some some companies are working on it like any, any sort of sort of shortcuts to that process. I've seen some amazing things in the last few weeks with DALL·E 2 by GPT-3. I don't know if you heard of those things coming out. Martin Feld 25:19 No, you have to explain. Geoff Kim 25:20 Oh so, DALL·E 2 um is sort of a bit of a wordplay with Salvador Dali, I suppose. But um... Martin Feld 25:27 OK... Geoff Kim 25:27 You type in an input, a text input, and the AI would generate that image from scratch, based on, you know, machine learning and all the all the data that it's scraped over the Internet. So you know, I think um, what did I tweet the other day? A long time ago, someone made this joke about algorithm or 'What are algorithms except Al Gore dancing?' or something like that (or dancing badly). So I actually put that in the input and I got something back. Martin Feld 25:59 Really? Geoff Kim 25:59 Just need to go to my old tweet... Martin Feld 26:01 And it was Al Gore dancing? Geoff Kim 26:03 It was, yeah I think, I think I said something like, 'Al Gore on the dance floor', or something like that. Martin Feld 26:07 Wow, OK, I'll have to have a look. Geoff Kim 26:08 Debatable whether he's actually dancing, but this was actually the the mini version of that the actual because like, not everyone has access to the the actual version. But yeah, that kind of like, proves the the the technology and kind of where that's headed headed. Visually, that kind of makes more sense. But like, I don't know, like, once, I'm sure there's lots of stuff happening with audio as well. So maybe podcasting, or podcasters could be replaced one day too. Martin Feld 26:33 And how do you feel about that prospect? Geoff Kim 26:36 Just just knowing a little bit about the technology, I don't think it'll happen for a long time, because, yeah, it's the really fine details. Like you could probably tell if it's a robot talking is what I'm going to suggest. Martin Feld 26:49 Hmm... Geoff Kim 26:49 Who knows? Like, it's, we're talking about exponential sort of technology here, so doubling every year, like, maybe maybe we'll get there. What do they say? With exponential technology, once you're at one per cent, you're halfway there. Martin Feld 27:01 So, a long way off, but frighteningly accelerating rate... I understand what you mean. Geoff Kim 27:07 Yeah... Martin Feld 27:07 OK. Geoff Kim 27:08 And I'd like to know, your thoughts on like, whether podcasts would exist in 10 years’ time? And it's something I've thought about? Not sure... Martin Feld 27:15 Well, it's a good question, isn't it? How much it's bound to the technology itself, whether it takes on other forms... This is what's really interesting, and why I was fascinated to ask you about why and how you do it in terms of YouTube and Twitch as well, because it's conversation presented in different formats, which might still be conveying the same points, but can be absorbed differently by the viewer or listener. That's, that's a really interesting point to me. And then as you've just talked about AI, there's the added element of whether a person is behind that microphone or not. So yeah, it'll be fascinating to see, I don't think I could predict, although I'm interested to know generally, what other people think—hence why this podcast exists! Geoff Kim 27:57 There you go, there you go. Martin Feld 27:58 There you go. Geoff Kim 27:58 I think one of the other formats we tried was actually in VR. Martin Feld 28:02 Oh, really? How did that go? Geoff Kim 28:05 It didn't last very long, because those thing are not very comfortable for more than, say, 20 minutes (at least for me) um... Martin Feld 28:13 Sure! Geoff Kim 28:14 Being in those headsets, so I think, long time ago now, but probably around 2018, I sort of, well, a bunch of us invested in the (at the time it was called the) Oculus Rift. Martin Feld 28:26 Mm-hmm? Geoff Kim 28:26 You had to sort of hook it up back of your neck, you know, Neo-style to the computer. And you know, it was fairly believable. And uh once, the penny drops when you know, you can sort of feel presence, like in the same space with someone. Um, so one thing that I did discuss with Kelvin was like, yeah, maybe in the future podcasts will be in VR, and the audience can actually sit in the same room. That's like another level of connection that you could have with the producer, perhaps. Martin Feld 28:55 That's fascinating. And then thinking about whether it's on demand or live as well would probably alter that feeling. Geoff Kim 29:01 Yeah and if you've seen that movie, Her, like, you can maybe you can have different conversations with the actual audience at the same time. Not sure... Some sort of Q&A at the same time with multiple people through an AI, not one person, yeah. Martin Feld 29:18 Yeah, the ramifications of that are pretty interesting. Um, I mean, I can't say that I've tried VR for for podcasting. So that's um, I think, a feather in your cap for trying that. I had never even considered that. Geoff Kim 29:30 There you go! Martin Feld 29:30 Now, is there something in your general story or experience of being a producer or consumer podcasts that I haven't asked you about or that you'd like to explore? Geoff Kim 29:39 Yeah, nothing else sort of comes to mind in terms of uh... from production work. Yeah, I think just just to maybe some that part of it up, yep like I've sort of seen it as a hobby. It has helped, me whether it was intended or not, I'm not sure, like in my professional life, Kelvin seems to think he's gotten jobs out of it. I'm still in the same company, so I can't say that for sure. But yeah, I, yeah, so theoretically, I think I think it'll be the same for me, and um it's, I guess it's something uh... Well, maybe not so much these, they're just from the sheer volume of people that you meet that have podcasts. But, uh, yeah no, it'll be interesting. I'm probably comfortable with my current situation, so um, you know not that I should really be talking about that right now. But yeah, like I yeah, I definitely use it as a point to um, if I was looking for a job. Martin Feld 30:31 Well, that's fantastic. Um, you've given some very interesting things to think about technically, that I had never really considered about podcasting: VR being that really big point at the end there; but then also, that kind of divide that you pointed out about being the production side versus the infrastructure side and how you can share those skills in that hobby or creative realm. So um, I'm thrilled with what with what you've shared with us and I'm very grateful. Are you happy to finish there? Geoff Kim 30:58 Yeah, let's do it! Martin Feld 30:59 Perfect! OK, well, thanks again for joining Really Specific Stories, Geoff. It's been a pleasure to get to meet you and thanks for sharing your story with listeners. Geoff Kim 31:06 My pleasure, Martin.