Really Specific Stories: Kelvin Lee Duration: 38:08 SPEAKERS Martin Feld, Kelvin Lee Martin Feld 00:21 Welcome to Really Specific Stories, Kelvin. It's great to have you on! Kelvin Lee 00:24 Nah, thanks for having me! Martin Feld 00:25 It's a pleasure. Now, as you might have heard before, we start with the same question on this show. Kelvin, how did you get into podcasts? Kelvin Lee 00:34 It's funny, I'm trying to think back, it really was around, you know, filling in time, I think, I think that's what the, you know, the early days of, you know, my me getting into podcasts was all about. And I think back to the pre-iPhone, pre-Android days, and I had a Nokia E51, which is sort of like a BlackBerry rip-off—I had the keyboard and everything—and the first thing I remember doing as I was going to university on that long bus ride was to actually download news stories, to you know, data was really expensive back then. And that was a student, so it was about downloading the news stories before you leave the house and then reading it on the bus. And then from there, yeah, Android came around, iPhone came around, and that habit didn't go away: it was all about consuming that information, that news. And then I guess, you know, kind of like everybody else, you know, we started discovering people like Leo Laporte, and the TWiT network, and it kind of just grew from there. Martin Feld 01:28 Now, if it was about consuming news... Kelvin Lee 01:30 Mmm... Martin Feld 01:30 ...what was it about tech news that you found so interesting or engaging? Why was that genre? Kelvin Lee 01:36 Because it changes so much. And I, and it's also, you know, been an interest of mine since I was a kid, I used to break things all the time. My dad used to buy nice and shiny computers and before you know it, I was trying to open it up and see what was inside. So it kind of just grew from there and it was evolving so much. I think, you know, uh, when you think about life, before the iPhone and life after the iPhone, things just progressed so much quicker after that. So you know, it was fun to sort of, you know, be be up to date with everything. Martin Feld 02:05 When you say we're breaking things, casting your mind back even further (because I'm curious to hear what those things might have been)... Kelvin Lee 02:11 Yeah? Martin Feld 02:11 ...what were some of those early tech products or experiences that formed that early impression for you? Kelvin Lee 02:17 Mostly, you know, I remember my dad's first mobile phone, it was the Motorola (the brick) really. And then, you know, my dad used to bring back his laptop computer, and they used to cost an arm and a leg. Uh, and then you know, buy my first desktop computer—my first computer was an Apple Mac II, I think, um, and you know, used to play games on it and everything. But after a while, you just want to see what was inside and you would find a screwdriver and try to open that up, and not know how to put it back together again. So, my dad was very pleased about that. Martin Feld 02:47 That it couldn't be reassembled? Kelvin Lee 02:49 No... Martin Feld 02:49 Oh dear! Kelvin Lee 02:49 And it was so expensive! Martin Feld 02:51 I'm, I'm sure it was! It would have cost quite a bit! Kelvin Lee 02:53 Yeah. Martin Feld 02:53 That's interesting when you bring up the Mac, as an early part of your tech experience, because I think it's fair to say that while there are tech podcasts of various different fandoms or persuasions or brand preferences, the Mac or Apple as a brand in general is a very large part of that tech podcast sphere. Through those early days—you mentioned Leo Laporte—was the Mac or Apple in general a focus for you, or did you find interest in other areas too? Kelvin Lee 03:23 Um it was, it was quite funny in my first phone was an Android device, uh, because Apple was so expensive, and you know, the first phone you know, you get was never going to do that. But also, there was something about Android being that underdog. It's kind of the same sort of feel you get with podcasts, you know, when podcasts first came out, like no one knew what it was. And you kind of felt special, just like you felt kind of special using Android, even though everyone else was using iPhones back then. So I just enjoyed the whole, you know, I wanted, I wanted to see where Android was going, because it was nowhere near as mature as Apple and iOS, and I felt like I was part of a movement, which sounds kind of sad when it comes to phones. But we could see it evolve to the state that it is now. So, I listened to everything around technology. You know, I think, Leo, I think I think that's what... he was probably one of the very first few people to actually just take a scatter approach to everything; he was covering everything from Android to Apple to general tech, and then he moved on to Google. Um so there's just so much content to consume; I wouldn't say there was one topic that I was, uh, really hooked onto. Martin Feld 04:34 That's intriguing to me that you bring up Android as the underdog because for people who follow Apple in general, or tech narratives or the way that the industry has kind of gone, classically Apple and the Mac was regarded as the underdog... Kelvin Lee 04:49 Mmm-hmmm! Martin Feld 04:49 ...as far as desktop computing went. Nowadays, it's a bit of a different story, but your characterisation of Android as the underdog is really interesting. So when we think about your fandom for Android, would you characterise that as early fandom or was it more about anti-fandom towards Apple? How did you negotiate or navigate those different brand feelings as you were listening to these podcasts? Kelvin Lee 05:14 It's quite interesting. Um, so I always alternated between the two: I would have an Android phone for for one or two years; and then I would go to an iPhone; I'd go back and forth. So, I see more of a generalist type approach to these things. I wouldn't... I'm a fan of technology. For me, it's not about Android versus iOS; I think they both bring their own unique approaches to things. The thing that drew me to Android the most when I started out, you know, with a phone and everything was: I could do everything on it, whereas Apple was a closed ecosystem, so it was slightly more difficult. And, you know, it was... it wasn't just something that sat well with me at the start. But you know, they did other things really well designed, for example, like I think no one can compete with them on that. Martin Feld 05:54 How did your listening progress from those early days of Leo Laporte? Where did your podcasting journey take you and what did you start listening to? Kelvin Lee 06:02 It's, I think, everyone fell into the storytelling phase of podcasting, where you had things like Limetown, where you had things like, oh... that really famous podcast that everyone seems to forget the name to... Martin Feld 06:14 Serial? Kelvin Lee 06:15 Serial! Martin Feld 06:16 I think that's the one. Kelvin Lee 06:16 I think, I think that opened up a whole different genre of podcasting for me, but it also died really quickly for me. Um, I felt like you know, a lot of them follow the same approach, and it wasn't special, it wasn't unique after a while. You... at some point, you're going to run out of the typical Netflix episodic approach, where at the end of the episode, they leave you hanging, and then they move on to the next episode. I kind of grew a bit tired of that. Um so I went back to your general news slash podcasting. And what I started to realise was: it was the personality of the hosts, rather than the content, that really drew me in to a number of podcasts. So that was quite interesting. Martin Feld 06:59 That's an interesting shift back because... Kelvin Lee 07:01 Mmm? Martin Feld 07:01 I think if we look at the charts these days, a lot of those things, or those genres, are still at the top, and you'll have the top of the tech charts or categories, but tech would not really compare to something like true crime or other business or narrative genres. Personality is an interesting point. Are there any specific personalities that you would call out following that early era of Leo Laporte, who have stood out for you, either in the tech genre or other news content that you've listened to? Kelvin Lee 07:31 Yeah, the only way... the way I answer, the way to really look into that question is: who am I still listening to now? Martin Feld 07:37 Mmm... Kelvin Lee 07:37 And the one standout is the No Agenda show, by Adam Curry. There, there's just something about him and his co-host, um, on that show, where they can talk about anything and everything and they still add their own unique flavours to it. And they argue all the time—it isn't pretty—um, but there's just something about that, um, especially now being a parent, you're so time-poor, and the only time you ever get to listen to podcasts is in between drop-offs and pick-ups. So with the two or three hours I have a week, I'm totally consumed by one, at one sort of podcast at the moment. There will be times where, you know, friends can recommend different things to me, and I have a listen, but so far, I've really stuck to the No Agenda show, just because they're always trying different things and it's kind of wacky. And I feel like the typical tech podcast now, they're all quite commoditised, all quite generic. So I think it takes a lot to really stand out in the crowd now. Martin Feld 08:31 So with that, looking for new or experimental things with the time that you have, and saying that tech in general is maybe a bit generic.. Kelvin Lee 08:41 Mmm-hmmm? Martin Feld 08:41 ...does that mean you're listening to tech a lot less or have actually opted out? What's the kind of, I suppose, rough slice of the pie? Kelvin Lee 08:49 So it really comes down to content consumption again. Um, I'm finding myself with tech being drawn more into videos on YouTube, where, you know, I would say, what? 60 to 70 per cent of tech is about a product. It's hard to visualise a product over the audio medium. And it's quite funny, most of the YouTubers that I follow on YouTube are now podcasters. So if you look at Linus, if you look at Marques, they've all gone down the podcast route as well, with I think the... not only just to capture, obviously time from their listeners slash viewers like myself, who's in the car with no screen, but also I think they're trying to take control away from YouTube, um, and to try to own their own audience, which I think is really interesting. Martin Feld 09:34 So when you refer to YouTubers moving to become podcasters and own that, are you referring specifically to—sorry, I accidentally use that word that wasn't actually deliberate: 'specifically!'—seriously! Were you specifically referring to moving to a platform or delivery system like RSS or simply just something away from YouTube? Kelvin Lee 09:54 As a podcaster as well and using RSS to share our show to all of these different platforms, there is a certain, I don't know, a connection that we have with how free... and the, the current model of podcasting is. I think as the big companies like your Apples, your Googles, your Spotify will all try to own the Joe Rogans of the world. I still find RSS simplistically beautiful in how free it is and how everybody can work it out. So yeah, it's, it's definitely still the RSS, I also enjoy playing with different podcast apps. So I feel like the moment you start locking yourself down to a Spotify or even you know, apps that I used to love, like Pocket Casts, are now all owned by bigger companies. I, you know, and then brings back the whole sort of activist-type feel I get when using Android when I was younger; I still want some sort of control over things I listen to, and want to listen to and how I listen to them. And even if it's not as polished, you know, I'm willing to take that on to try different things. Martin Feld 10:59 Cool! Which podcast app you're using right now? Kelvin Lee 11:02 At the moment, ah, I don't have my phone with me. Um, I use a open-source app at the moment. The name escapes me, unfortunately! Martin Feld 11:08 We can put that in the show notes, if you remember! That's fine. Kelvin Lee 11:10 Yeah, I will! You're putting me on the spot and I can't remember. But, you know, I'm definitely into more of the open-source podcasting, listening apps. For a very long time, I was using Pocket Casts. And also because I enjoyed listening to the creator of Pocket Casts; he was also on a lot of Leo's episodes, so I think there was a connection there, uh, but after they moved on and got bought out, I was happy to try something else. So I'll definitely share that once I remember that! Martin Feld 11:38 That's OK, listeners can check that after the fact; it should be there, I hope, if not, no big deal! Now, before we lose that point about YouTubers and podcasters, you mentioned that with products, you can see them visually. Kelvin Lee 11:53 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 11:53 But YouTubers are moving to podcasts because they get to have that control. Do you think there is an advantage to the audio medium beyond control that these YouTubers can enjoy orr is the visual really the currency, really the advantage? Kelvin Lee 12:08 Yeah, I think there is an advantage of, it's almost a follow-up on the video. I think a lot of YouTubers have started to notice that 10 minutes is the YouTube video length that would make best use of the algorithm. So, because of the amount of editing that goes into YouTube videos these days, a lot of the detail gets taken out. And I think they can have these discussions, just like we are on a podcast, where something goes into my head, it's not scripted, we talk about it. Whereas YouTube videos are extremely scripted, they're so well-polished, and the production value is so high these days, it's hard to talk and break that script. So I think it's just a more natural medium, you feel like you're having a conversation with someone rather than listening to the person. So they can build another level of loyalty, I guess, with their listeners—that is something that YouTube can do. Martin Feld 13:00 I think that's a good segue... Kelvin Lee 13:02 Mmm... Martin Feld 13:02 ...into your own experience as a producer, if I can move there. Kelvin Lee 13:06 Yeah. Martin Feld 13:06 Because from what I've observed, with your experience, or your production with Naked Tech Podcast, you've done a bunch of different things in delivering the show. Can you tell me your own view as to how Naked Tech Podcast started, and what the experience of that has been as a producer? Kelvin Lee 13:25 You know, usually people have an idea and then they find a co-host to go and do it with; I think for me and Jeff was very much the other way around. I think, you know, Jeff and I met at work; we had similar interest in technology; our colleagues loved listening to us talk about it; someone dared us to do a podcast, so we did. And then we slowly found our strengths: Jeff does all the editing; I do a lot of the set-up. And you know, we found a way to do hundreds of episodes, uh, after so many years. So we were definitely podcasters first and now we haven't recorded in about a year just to give ourselves a break, but to also find a way to reach new audiences. I think, I think that's probably the biggest flaw with podcasting at the moment: that's discovery. I think if you are a podcast that doesn't have prominent guests that come on with large social media followings, it's hard to make that grow really quickly. And that was never our intention; our intention with podcasting there was to learn about what the Hell it was, to learn about a new medium of sharing information and, you know, and we've learned so much from it personally, we've grown so much from it, and we will keep doing it. Sure, in the back of my mind, we're always thinking about how to grow the listenership, but it's not a focus. Monetisation is not a focus, thankfully for us. But obviously we wouldn't say no, if we cracked the secrets of around how to do that. Martin Feld 14:54 You just said then that you've grown a lot by podcasting. Kelvin Lee 14:58 Mmm... Martin Feld 14:58 What do you think are some of the the biggest turning points or lessons that you've experienced, doing that podcast with Jeff? Kelvin Lee 15:07 Public speaking—it's definitely been a huge difference. I'm not as afraid of the microphone, because you know, we're talking into one once a week. Uh, and when you look at some of the numbers, you're you're, you're realising that tens of people are listening to you talk anyway. So that kind of builds that confidence and we didn't know that was going to be a thing. It was a nice by-product of the podcast. And just being prepared—you don't want to talk about a topic where you haven't done any research on; it becomes, it becomes very apparent very quickly. So, understanding the importance of being prepared, understanding that the listeners, they're taking their time to listen to you, so you better have something interesting to say. And just doing that research, which we were doing already, because we had such a, a strong interest in technology, it was just about taking that next level down and diving deeper into a lot of the topics. That was really fun. Martin Feld 15:59 I liked that you mentioned research there because when you compare tech podcasting, for example, with narrative podcasts (like the true crime one, you said), there's a different level of effort that goes into that in terms of framing a story, casting people... Kelvin Lee 16:14 Mmm... Martin Feld 16:14 ...doing soundscapes and effects and music and so on. But research is a big component of conveying information, if you want to sound credible, you made that point really well. If you're talking about things that you really enjoy, I'm assuming the research is less; you don't have to put as much effort in. Did you ever feel any kind of expectation from your audience to talk about topics maybe that you were less interested in? What level or effort of research have you often had to go to in producing the show? Kelvin Lee 16:43 That's a really interesting question. So, I think, we weren't, we never really had a lot of feedback from listeners, you know, I think, I think we had people who were all extremely positive because we were a smaller podcast. Uh, and sure people occasionally would point out factual sort of inaccuracies. And that comes with it, and that's fine, we enjoy that kind of thing, we enjoy a bit of banter. But no one ever sort of came up and says, 'Hey, I wished you all covered this and this instead!' I think they knew that they were sharing (or listening into) a conversation between me and Jeff. And if they could almost dictate a little bit of that, it kind of takes the surprise element out of that episode or that podcast are what we're about. So, no, not really, I wouldn't say there was any pressure to cover off topics that we weren't quite sure of, because then it takes away the passion as well. And I think that's what people are in for, um, when they listen to these shows. It's literally listening in on a conversation. Martin Feld 17:45 When you're talking about feedback from listeners, even if it wasn't a lot, as you said, what were some of the primary ways that people would get in touch with you if they had a compliment to send to you or a question to ask? Kelvin Lee 17:56 I think it's, it was Twitter. Um, you know, Twitter's fast: back then it was 144 characters, you'd get it through something really quickly. And it was probably the first sort of social media out that, that we would use to promote the show first, because it was just so quick. And there was a lot of people on it, and it was a good way to have that conversation. So, definitely Twitter first and then email, surprisingly. Martin Feld 18:17 And is that the way that you've interacted with other podcasters or content creators? Is that something you do yourself as a listener? Kelvin Lee 18:24 It's... no, actually, it's quite funny. It's for me, it's not a, I still view it as a TV show almost, when I listen to podcasts. I feel like that, there's that wall, even though, you know, I'm quite sure if I, you know, sent Adam Curry a tweet, I wouldn't get a reply (there would be hundreds of that). Um, maybe I'm showing my age a little bit, but for me, it's still in my head, there's still that imaginary wall where I'm viewing into a show, rather than it being something that I can interact with. Martin Feld 18:53 And do you feel a level of satisfaction or comfort with that? Because there may be fans who really do want to reach out. Kelvin Lee 18:58 Yeah, I think, I think they know where they, they... I think they get the feel that this is a smaller show and it's very different to your Adam Currys of the world and your Leo Laportes. And we're also based in Australia. I think a lot of these... so many of our other podcasts we listen to are based in the US, so I think that creates a more approachable vibe to the show. Martin Feld 19:19 Have most of your listeners come from Australia, if I may ask that, or have you noticed in international representation too? Kelvin Lee 19:26 It's quite funny. We look at that all the time, because we enjoy looking at the analytics. It depends on the episode. So, if we were to cover, you know, an app or software company based in Europe or in China, we'd get a few more listeners there. And it's all, it wasn't by, it's never by design, it's always by chance. So we enjoy looking at the analytics to see where it takes us. Martin Feld 19:48 Now, I don't want to lose a point that you said earlier about the fact that you haven't recorded for a year. Now... Kelvin Lee 19:53 Mmm-hmmm? Martin Feld 19:53 ...I know podcasting is a big commitment, whether it's your full-time job or a hobby or a side hustle or however you want to put it—depends on the approach and I suppose the audience that you get view. For you, you've decided to take a break, which is great. Kelvin Lee 20:07 Mmm-hmmm. Martin Feld 20:08 What have you learnt or reflected on in not podcasting? What have you realised or come to terms with in that time? Kelvin Lee 20:17 There's, there's definitely still that itch to want to do it again; there's a certain satisfaction you get out of creating your own content and having the courage to put it on the Internet for everyone to judge. So, I definitely do miss that. And it gets you thinking around how, you know, all the different things we can do differently. Or do we go back to the formula that we know and love, uh, we're definitely weeks away from recording again, but we just want to make sure we get things right, you know, to reach a new audience that haven't listened to us for almost a year. So there's, there's definitely that excitement of wanting to do it again. Martin Feld 20:53 Maybe this is too particular a question and maybe this is something I haven't even spoken to Jeff about, but if there were no risk, and you were just to throw something at the wall or try something entirely new (either within podcasting or in another medium)... Kelvin Lee 21:09 Mmm-hmmm? Martin Feld 21:09 ...what do you think you'd want to try in conveying information to people? Kelvin Lee 21:13 Yeah, so it's quite funny: we've almost taken the wrong way around with approaching this, but before we stopped, we tried a couple of weeks of recording everything in Twitch, and then using the audio in podcasting. Um, and, you know, I think we want to continue doing that. Uh, and then we need to make a decision of whether we focus purely just in audio. But I think we definitely want to do more in video. Uh, it just offers a different dimension to the show. Whether we have the time, the expertise and the money to do something that isn't just audio-related is something we need to figure out. But definitely to do more video—I think, I think that will open up the viewership a lot more. Martin Feld 21:55 And what is it about Twitch for you as a platform, as opposed to other things that allow video broadcasting? Kelvin Lee 22:01 There, there's something raw about Twitch, where anyone can go on there, and the fact they have an entire category just called ‘Chat’, you know, shows the appetite for chat on Twitch. And and you know, you don't find that on YouTube; I think as much as YouTube wants to make YouTube Live a thing, it still doesn't even make up, you know, 5 per cent of what I watch on YouTube. I never watch anything live on YouTube, but I would on Twitch. So that's just the you know, there's still a little bit of what that then makes Twitch special, even though it's gone slightly haywire. Their trajectory has gone slightly all over the place—you know, they've gone beyond gaming and things like that—but there's still a little bit of that raw sort of personality chat-type feature of Twitch that I enjoy watching. So, you know, if we can get onto that, great. Martin Feld 22:46 So it captures a kind of liveness that you're saying YouTube doesn't really have or wasn't designed with from the beginning? Kelvin Lee 22:51 Correct. Martin Feld 22:51 OK, I understand. Kelvin Lee 22:53 Absolutely. Martin Feld 22:53 Now, that's pretty interesting to me, what you're talking about publishing something in video, because right now you and I are chatting with a video screen, right? Kelvin Lee 23:01 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 23:01 We can see each other in this video chat, though only the audio will be shared and listeners will hear it that way. Martin Feld 23:06 Mmm-hmmm... Martin Feld 23:06 So, some people like to see each other as they speak; sometimes people don't. Kelvin Lee 23:11 Yeah. Martin Feld 23:12 To actually publish the video, though, is a different story. So, what can you tell me about the feeling of publishing what is basically a podcast in video where people can see your space, rather than just using it as the way to talk to the other person? Kelvin Lee 23:28 I think it's generally viewed as not good enough, mostly, um if it's just two talking heads on the screen, that is definitely not enough. The best thing about podcasting is capturing the moment. I'm going to say something silly, or Jeff would say something silly, and we typically try not to edit that out because it adds to the, you know, the character of the show. You know, with video, because you have to do some editing to the video anyhow, there's that temptation to want to take things out to make it a bit more polished. Uh, and that's not what we're aiming for. So where possible, we try to do everything live, for example, we'll use OBS to, you know, show different products, show different services show different webpages, and we'll talk about those things. It's just adding an element on top of the way we podcast, to hopefully give the listeners and viewers more. But it also can be very distracting. For example, we'll tell the audio listeners, hey, it's hard for you to imagine, but imagine this, which would appeal to the audio listener, but it would mean nothing to someone who's watching it via video. So it's almost slightly schizophrenic. So it's something we have to figure out. Martin Feld 24:33 So what you're describing is recording the video and audio but actually forking it? You're actually publishing both versions? Kelvin Lee 24:41 Correct. So they're almost the same thing. We almost don't, because of time and, and we almost don't separate the two. So depending on how you look at it, if you're someone who enjoys videos, you can listen to us on the go. If you're someone who listen to podcasts, you can actually see the chaos behind the microphone almost. But we want to give them more. So have we overstretched ourselves in trying to cover two different, totally different types of medium? Probably. Um, so we'll definitely have to try to figure that one out. Martin Feld 25:14 Bringing your audience and its impressions into the equation, do you have any idea or appreciation of how your audience views you, depending on whether they've only heard you, or whether they've also seen you? Have you ever heard or got an impression of that? Kelvin Lee 25:29 I think we, I think we're definitely more... uh, it's so hard to use the word 'popular', but we're definitely more appealing on audio because there's a certain level, like, there's not much you can do to make audio sexier. You can do a lot to make video sexier, so there's so much emphasis on you as a person and the conversation. Whereas if you do a video, you can hide behind a lot of the production that happens on it. So, because we've done the podcast a lot longer than we've done a video and the video is very much an extension of the audio, I would say there's definitely more appreciation for the show as a podcast more than a video. Uh, I think the video is a way to help us market the show a little bit to people who may not have heard the show. So it's a totally different audience, which is quite surprising. Martin Feld 26:22 So if I can ask and maybe there isn't an answer to this—maybe it isn't either/or—but which one do you consider the core experience or text? And I ask you because you characterised the audio as the first thing, but the video is maybe the preference, but the video is also the marketing for the audio. So if you had to choose, if you can, where would you say the core is? Kelvin Lee 26:45 I would say the audio. I feel like it's, it's what it was born out of and we want to stay true to it. Um but we also know that in terms of you know, people who have watched YouTube, there must be 100 times, 1000 times more people doing that to listen to podcasts. So you know, we're still happy to see what's out there. And who knows what will happen 10, 15 years from now, where we're probably going to VR and do a show there. You never know! So we're trying to stay open to these new ideas, but definitely, we would always go back to audio. I don't think that's going to go away anytime soon. Martin Feld 27:20 Stepping back from podcasting for a second—of course it connects with this—but, you've said in about a few different things that you know you'd like to Android, but you've also tried iOS, you want to try different technologies. Just then you said, you know, there's VR or other things you want to try. You've even got Twitch and audio, and it's, it's all happening. On the tech horizon—different products that could come out, different apps or services or hardware that you want to try—where would you like to see technology going, as someone who speaks about it and presents about it so often? Kelvin Lee 27:52 It's quite interesting: I think the one sort of similarity around all the pieces of tech you just mentioned is the freedom to try all those things. Um, I'm not a big fan of anything that is closed. So any ecosystem that is closed, I feel like it limits and creates bubbles, that just doesn't push us forward in a, in a helpful way. So, which is why I'm so—I'm not locked down to anything, I will try everything: I have a PC; I have a Mac; I have an iPad; I have an Android phone; um, because I want to try these different things. If I feel like I fall into one ecosystem, it will not, I can't experience what the other side is experiencing. So, I think freedom is a big thing. There will always be companies, even like Spotify, trying to buy podcasts now. And you know, nothing's gonna stop YouTube from doing the same and they're gonna buy shows, they're gonna be exclusives. It typically comes full circle. If you look at all the exclusives that the streaming services are doing, how much do we pay for five different streaming services to make sure we watch every show? And I don't want podcasting to go down that way; I don't want to start paying for you know, Spotify to listen to Joe Rogan or you know something else or something else. And then you realise that people want it all back, and they find different ways of pirating different things, and they go back. So for me, freedom is important to try different things and to not force me to make a choice I don't have to make. Martin Feld 29:16 That, that's an excellent summary, I think of where you'd like things to go or not go. Is there something in your general story or your background or your experience with the medium that I haven't asked you about that you would like to explore or that's gone untapped? Kelvin Lee 29:31 I think there's you know, I think Facebook is trying really hard to make the metaverse happen. Martin Feld 29:36 Mmm-hmmm... Kelvin Lee 29:37 And because I work in technology, I get invitations all the time to check out these different AR-, VR-, MR-type apps and software and experiences and it just isn't taking off. It's something that I think will happen and I'm s-... I can't wait to see how will happen. I know Google initially came with the glasses, it was way too early and, and that didn't work out. And I know there's always that rumour that Apple wants to do something. So is there a way to make your environment interact with the content that you're consuming is going to be a, I think, a real breakthrough for the way we do these things. Um, so it'll be interesting. Martin Feld 30:17 A lot of those things with the metaverse or VR glasses, or AR can be quite dystopian, at least the way that people generally frame it. A lot of people imagine some sort of Matrix environment or something similar. Kelvin Lee 30:29 Mmm. Martin Feld 30:29 You seem quite optimistic about it. What would you like to see or where do you think it will or should be heading? Kelvin Lee 30:35 Every technology has its upsides and its downsides. The very basic fundamentals of the Internet, for example, your browser, you can use it to look at good things, you can look, you can use it to look at bad things, and people can scam you through it as well. So I think it's the education of protecting yourself and what you consume. But can you stop that from happening? I don't think so. I think there's always going to be downsides to any technology, but there there also be upsides and it's just about weighing those two up and making sure you take the right precautions. Martin Feld 31:09 And as someone who speaks about technology, so often or has done so as a podcaster, where do you see your role in that education? Kelvin Lee 31:18 It's a different way of providing the latest about those pieces of technology. I think anyone can switch on the TV and listen to your main mainstream networks and your TV and you get a bite-sized version of that, but it reaches so many people. For the portion of the audience that wants to learn more, or dive deeper, or listen to different views like mine or Jeff's, we're there to continue that conversation. It's nice to be part of that dissemination of information almost and just keep the conversation going; whether it's bad, whether it's good, whether it will last and whether it won't at least, you know, there's somewhere that people can go to the listen to a different view. Martin Feld 32:03 And that's what do you plan to do when you return? Kelvin Lee 32:06 Yes. I think that's interesting as well. Jeff and I have very different takes on a lot of things and that's what keeps it going. If we were both, you know, humming to the same tune, it'd be kind of a boring show. Martin Feld 32:17 That's a an interesting point to look at. Where do you think that you two perhaps differ the most? Because you know, a little bit of drama or conflict can keep a story going or keep people coming back. Where do you think the most interesting differences come from? Kelvin Lee 32:32 I think, you know, two hosts on or podcasts is just like any relationship. For me, I think Jeff is definitely the dreamer. I think he very much looks into the future of a lot of things. He's always looking for that next point of singularity, which he loves talking about. I'm more of the realist. I like looking at, you know, how it can make a difference to me now. So, so there's always that sort of compromise that we have around, you know, is Elon Musk controlling the way you think and using your brainwaves to control things a good thing? So... Martin Feld 33:04 Well... Kelvin Lee 33:04 ...you can already imagine a very controversial topic like that would bring around very differing views from someone like me, who thinks it's going to be a bad idea, but to Jeff, who thinks it can change the world. Martin Feld 33:13 Changing the world is an interesting point. Kelvin Lee 33:16 Mmm. Martin Feld 33:16 As a realist, do you see these technologies that we're engaging with as changing the world in any kind of positive way? You've hinted that podcasting maybe can or does, or that idea of openness, or is 'change the world' a bit dramatic? Kelvin Lee 33:31 I hate to sound really cliché. I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old, and I, when I see them interact with the likes of Siri and Google devices that I have at home and the way they interact with the iPad and my phone, they're learning a lot quicker than I used to. They have access to any sort of information, and that's a good side, I think I think that is changing how much they can learn and at what age. The downside is, obviously, that needs supervision. And I'm very fortunate in the sense that because I used to, you know, work in technology, in digital and in search and information, I know quickly how to go through a lot of information very quickly. So you know, I have that skill-set. But is everyone equipped to do the same? It's something that technology will, cannot solve. We're just going to get more and more content online, you know, and it's going to be harder and harder to realise what is bad and what is good. So that's my biggest concern. Martin Feld 34:28 So, the human is a key element of all of this. As a technologist or someone who's interested in technology, how do you see the human in all of this? Kelvin Lee 34:39 Yeah. And it's really quite funny when people ask me, you know, 'What kind of job would you like in the future?' And I always tell them, like, 'I would love to be a robot feeder', in a sense that the robot can only do so much, right? Artificial Intelligence, machine learning can only do so much; I want to be that guy that feeds them the information and teaches it to do the right thing as much as I can, almost. So, there will always be that human element. Uh, if anything, you know, the future of robotics, machine learning, AI will help us do a lot of the more mundane tasks, while we, as humans would hopefully, rise up, elevate and learn more and teach the robots to do things the right way. Yeah, we'll see what happens. Martin Feld 35:23 So you're hoping for something more leisure-based than dystopian? Is that fair? Kelvin Lee 35:27 Yes, yes, I'm trying to be, you know, I'm typically a pessimist, but I'm trying to be optimistic here. Um, because, you know, so far, ever since, you know, I think I think, you know, I'm in a generation where I survived without the Internet and with the Internet. Has made my life a lot better? Yes. Has made it a lot worse? Probably, by, you know, wasting too much time on social media. But it definitely has, you know, allowed us to connect with people a lot quicker, to save memories, to do, to do so much content, to listen to so much content. It really is up to us to make sure that we try to do the right things. Martin Feld 36:00 I think that's a great point to rest on, particularly what you were saying about your kids and the way that they're growing up with things and moving on from there. Is there any kind of point that you'd like to sum up with or somewhere that you kind of hope things are going? Kelvin Lee 36:17 I don't think you can stop bad actors from doing bad things. Regardless of the technology, if it's blockchain, if it's creating content, all we can do is educate ourselves and how to recognise what we would consider bad. I know I can't stop my kids looking at screens, so they're everywhere, either in a shopping centre or a bus, you know... all I can do my very best to hopefully, educate them around what is bad and what is good. So you know, that is really up to us: we can blame the technology as much as we want, but at the end of the day, the concept of right or wrong for you, and you know, where you sit on that spectrum is up to you. Martin Feld 36:56 Perfect. Is there anything else that you'd like to discuss? Because I don't want to limit you if there are other things to talk about. Kelvin Lee 37:01 No! Martin Feld 37:02 Because you've got a treasure trove of information here. Kelvin Lee 37:05 I think, I think, I think ending with that is a good, the whole right-and-wrong debate is a good one to end on. Martin Feld 37:11 Perfect, because as I said, it's your episode. I'm the facilitator. Well, look, I really appreciate your time, Kelvin coming onto the podcast, it's been really fascinating to hear about your views on closed versus open, different brand ideas, remaining receptive to different products and technologies. Um, I just want to say thank you for joining the show! Kelvin Lee 37:32 No, that was really fun. And I really enjoy the little Mac you have in the back of there! It's bringing back memories! Martin Feld 37:37 Oh, thank you! Listeners can't see it, but uh... Kelvin Lee 37:39 Yeah! Martin Feld 37:40 ...a tangerine iBook! I'll have to include a picture. Kelvin Lee 37:42 I know, that looks, I remember that one. No, that was a lot of fun. Thanks, Martin, for your um, you know, for persisting and getting me on the show was a lot of fun. Martin Feld 37:49 That's OK. That's my, uh, self-chosen job. Thank you so much! Kelvin Lee 37:53 Take care!