blundersS2E2
James: [00:00:00] Welcome back everyone to episode two of season two of coffee house blunders. That's right. We are breaking down every single episode of the Queen's gambit. The international hit sensation from Netflix and has been sparking chess to unbelievable Heights. It's ridiculous. I just saw it on the news the other day, I was tweeting articles to you.
Um, I'm James Montemagno. And this person that I keep saying is you is my best friend and my entire world international. Chess master, Danny Rensch. How's it going buddy? 
Danny: [00:00:39] And just kept that going. And you did send me the article and I just told you before we went live here that yesterday on chess.com, we had more than 8 million live games completed for the first time ever.
And that's, uh, we don't, we're not going to be talking about that today, but I just had to say that because you're right. The, uh, it's been wild. We're more than a month now, since Queens gambit has been live on Netflix, if not even. Not even more actually I think cultural month and a half. And it's, uh, it's still crazy.
And all the talk and people are loving it. It's really inspiring. And re-engaging, people's old love of chess and bringing new people to the game and, uh, this podcast. Is is so much fun. I enjoyed last week so much James, and this week, you and I both rewatched it. We took notes. I can't wait to dive into all that is exchanges episode two.
James: [00:01:23] That is correct. Yeah. I am a static. I have seven pages of notes. I tweeted it out earlier, 
Danny: [00:01:28] so I did great seven pages. So you will forgive me for that, but I think I've seen it more than you. And maybe that led to less notes this time anyway, but I can't wait. I can't wait for seven pages of notes. As giddy 
James: [00:01:40] I'm, I'm really, I'm really excited about this and we've already been discussing a little bit, but if you're new to the podcast, stop now and go back to the first episode in season one, which is, um, openings, which is we are breaking down every single episode of the Queen's gambit with no spoilers for future episodes.
If you are watching with us. Welcome. You're going to love this because we're breaking down, not only the show, but more importantly, the chess while I am not a chess, Grandmaster, international master and national master or a master of any sort. I am a programmer day, 
Danny: [00:02:10] Batman by night. You keep forgetting to say that Batman by that.
Go ahead. Sorry. 
James: [00:02:13] That was great. Um, Danny, over here, you may know him, um, from chess.com, you know, and on Twitch, he's an international master and he has been. Really just holding the weight over here of explaining the, the, the, the pieces behind, you know, the moves behind the pieces, if you will. Right. Uh, Beth has been making every single stop along the way, but we aren't, you know, commenting, I think what's important is on the era.
Right. You're talking about this in the first episode, you know, we're in the, the fifties and sixties, we're moving along, uh, in this and is the chest realistic? Is it not realistic? And I think. After doing the first episode of the podcast with you last week and watching episode two again, I think I'm now looking.
At everything different, by the way, like I am thinking about why, um, you know, different moves are made this way, how our thinking is, you know, just in general, in general. Cause I'm learning a lot. I think that's why we're doing this podcast too. 
Danny: [00:03:09] No, I don't want to say too. Yeah. You, you talked about all the chess we're going to get going to get into, but for those who haven't watched or listened to episode one, uh, now we're gonna assume you've done that.
So you'll know. And that we're also talking about the era and all the different things that you know, would be going on in the sixties. And there's things that a young woman would be experiencing, maybe both in the chest community and not, I mean, I think I had some takeaways from episode two where they really start to kind of, um, You know, plant the seed of, of some of the things that Beth observes about, about, um, you know, the relationship, right, that she's adopted into men and women in general and her place in the world and how that's going to fit into struggles that that actually ends up bringing to not just her life, but also on the chess board.
And me watching episode, episode two, excuse me again. Last night had me taken away again, just what a great job they did of storytelling and developing the character of Beth both on and off the chessboard, especially as someone who. Has taught so much chess forever. And now, you know, I do what I do with chess.com and teach chess on kind of like a larger scale, which shows and videos.
But I say often that chess is so much psychology and I've had so much experience with recognizing that someone's approach to things in their character. Like their personality is reflected on the board in terms of their strengths and weaknesses. And I can't say enough. How much I feel they did that. And so now james' job is to hold me back and make sure I don't talk about things future in the show, we just focus episode two and all the things there.
But I think we already start to see so much of that and I can't wait to get into it. 
James: [00:04:35] Yeah. And before we do, we encourage everybody to give us feedback on your thoughts. On episode one, we posted the episode, not only on your favorite podcast application, you can go to blenders, RFM comments on the episode, or run us an email.
And it's also on Danny's YouTube as well. So if you prefer to get your podcasts via YouTube, um, they're there as well. And Danny, I believe you have a kind of really awesome comment comment. A comment from the commenter as well. 
Danny: [00:04:59] A comment from the commentary for I'm going to, I'm going to read one quick one first from Julia Andrews, who said finally with an exclamation point, I think he was talking about our podcast coming back, or maybe that someone's doing a podcast on, uh, on the Queen's gambit.
So thank you for the finally exclamation point, Julian. But then he says, did I think that her finding the ready target cower tactic, which is the one she found, um, against the, uh, the coach from the high school, mr. Um, mr. Gaines gait, uh, Yeah, mr. Gaines, the ready target cower queen sack a bit unrealistic.
Well, I don't know. I mean, the, the story is designed to, to, to highlight her for kind of tactical and, and, uh, just, you know, her brilliant level of focus and, uh, The fact that it's done in a way that pays homage to ready tar, to cower as, as an amazing way to finish off a chess game is kind of what I focused on.
Whether it was realistic or not, we'll get into here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to say the Julian. If you just heard your comment read out loud, we're going to get into some of the realistic. Moments and even more of the specifics of the chess and this episode, specifically as we get to the end and talk about her match with mr.
Bell tick at the end of the Kentucky state championship. So we'll talk a little bit more about that later on. I don't know that it's so important as much that they nailed the chess and it is a brilliant game from a very famous position, but maybe you're not totally wrong. The main column that we want to read them was from dialects junkie, who says, one thing I'd say is that in chess?
Uh, Why can't I read Pete PD, pedagogic, Peter judge. What does that Pedago pedagogic? Peggy pedagogic G. Well, why can't I read that word pedagogy? 
James: [00:06:33] Sure 
Danny: [00:06:36] best idea to start teaching beginners, even talented ones openings, especially to go so deeply into variations, such as the 11 fish, which I believe is a very, quite as a quite specific line.
And it already specific line, which is the Sicilian dragon. It's better to start with end games and tactics, maybe more advanced middle game positional ideas. If the student is really talented. So he's. 100%, right. And maybe not super relevant, but because this is a chess kind of breakdown of an amazing show.
I'm just going to give credit where credit's due. He's not rolling it all. And. And even though this comes with a slight spoiler, I already already promised James. It's not a spoiler in any way that any of you who maybe haven't seen episode six and seven are going to be mad at me. He comments to his own comment.
It says. And in fact, in the later matches when we know Beth is playing for a lot of stakes, which I will get into the announcer, even mentions that Beth is very strong in the opening and early middle game, but relatively weaker in the end game in later portions, he's not wrong at all. In fact, it's such an insightful comment that, um, Had to bring it up now, I don't know that it's super relevant to, uh, to the fact that, you know, this is a show about a chess, prodigy, whatever, but it is kind of interesting to point out that some of Beth's, again, like character weaknesses on the board are sort of foreshadowed early on with the chess that they show and this sort of over-focus on the opening.
And again, this is just super interesting. Chess has never been covered like this. So the golden standard that we're calling the Queen's gambit on Netflix goes beyond. The X's and O's of like, yes, the board was set up James. Yes, they did some cool tactics, but this is like really actually super well done.
Right. To describe someone's weaknesses when they become this great player as maybe something that was kind of like planted on very early on in terms of the way she was taught and exposed to the game. So, anyway, super cool comment. Thank you. Dialects junkie. And hopefully everyone continues to read more now that you know, that we, we will actually engage with you and read them.
Yeah, 
James: [00:08:27] I think it's a good point too. And in fact, in this episode, when we get to the, you know, bell tick and the towns matches later on towards the end of the podcast, it's fascinating because I think she feels very, you can tell that there's a poise, there's a calmness in the opening of these matches, but somewhere around three fourths, the way in to these matches, she, you know, she has her head.
I'm down with her, with her, with her, you know, knuckles to her face. And she's really thinking about it. She's really getting in and, and no, no, you normally do that when you're playing a chess match, but compared to her, compared to towns and compared to beltic, they're sort of the same the entire time, you know, beltic, at some point he's like, he knows.
He sees it. Right. But you can, you can tell she has to sort of put a lot more energy into those, to those end games. Uh, even though she's able to do it. And you know, when we open up the episode, funnily enough, talking about openings is they talk about the Sicilian defense. Uh, yet again, she's talking about that there's 57 pages.
Of on the Sicilian defense and 170 lines P to Q before. I don't know what that means, Danny, can you please, can you please decrypt what she's talking about in the, uh, the openings book 
Danny: [00:09:37] PHQ before his pawn Queen's Bishop for which is the Sicilian, um, And, uh, we, we talked about a lot of this, uh, last episode, or maybe we do.
I think we talked many times that we would get into the, the, the, the description of descriptive notation, which is what that is. So if you play on, on chess.com or NHS website, or read any sort of modern book, you're going to see algebraic notation, which is. The board sort of turned into a graph, right? You have the numbers one through eight on the bottom, and you have letters a through H aligning the side.
And so a move is just described as  or pawn it to C5. In the case of the Sicilian pawns, descriptive is, is a notation that was invented and allows you to describe the moves without. Without looking at a board that has the algebraic numbers added the, the numbers or the letters. Right. So it's actually very cool.
Cause it's sort of a, a self defining way to have a, to give every move and address, right. And our charting. So pull into Queen's Bishop four would mean as black, you start with your queen, you move through your Queens, Bishop, and the poem moves up to the fourth rank, pull to Queens, Bishop for, um, and that is the Sicilian.
And again, they do such a good job because they didn't. They didn't even screw up things like that and have her say they could have had her say something random, like pull into Queens, Rook three, right. Which will be a random move, like a six. And people would say, that's not an opening in modern chess.
Right. They not only did they get it right. Was an opening with C5 meeting Paul into Queen's Bishop for, but as the Sicilian, which we all know is the opening she's obsessed with. And it's the homage directly to her chest personalities, which is foreshadowed so many times that the series is being related to Bobby Fischer, who, who was a huge proponent of the Sicilian.
James: [00:11:16] Got it. Got it. Yeah. I just, you know, those things, we had talked about it a little bit in the past and I think it's a good reminder is there's a lot of ways to navigate the chess board and they do that really elegantly throughout the entire series. Um, and this is really fascinating. They open up. And then they jumped six years.
We were in 1957. They jumped six years in 1963. And at the end of the first episode and openings, you know, Beth is grabbing, grabbing tranquilizers by the fistful and shoving in her mouth as she's a, you know, her addiction has begun of these things, but she's been punished, she's been punished and she hasn't been able to play chess.
Now we don't know if she hasn't been able to play chess for the full six years, but I want to say. Yes, you know, I think so. Um, you know, she had just turned 15, uh, and I guess, you know, what, what, what does that do when you are taken away from chess? Right. She's just getting started. She's just there. What should it do?
I mean, she, I think she proved a lot of things wrong in this episode. Um, but what can that do to a chess player or someone that you're teaching when they step away from chess for, for years at a time, 
Danny: [00:12:28] So I'm so fascinated by that idea, because I was thinking about this during the show and was like, especially last night, I was like, do I really believe someone could have that kind of talent?
And not play the game for so long and then eventually kind of rekindle it and find the levels that she did. And I actually came to the conclusion. Yes. I don't think that that's, I think it's, it's a sad story for someone to have found something they're so brilliant at. And what I started taking away was, Oh my gosh, how good could she have been if she found yes.
And they didn't put her sure. And take it away for six years or if she was in a stable family, like my, my chess coaching brain was like, I was sitting there talking with Shauna last night, we were watching it and I was like, man, If some of the most talented kids that I had, like, you know, didn't get taken away from Jesse started managing, how could they, could they have been meeting kids?
I taught not, not, not, uh, kids. We've had, that's a different story. Nevermind. I don't know where I'm going with this part of the show, but, um, the, the, uh, the point is, I think if someone has a real aptitude for something, um, there are fundamentals that maybe like, you know, Go away or you don't get instilled because you didn't learn it when you were younger, which we kind of see happen with Beth later on both in terms of her, her issues as a person and on the board.
But I think, I think that they do a really good job of showing she found the game clues, show aptitude, left it, but the passion never left. You know, she's begging mr. Scheibel. We see when she is moving, it gets adopted. She's looking for her MCO book, you know, the modern chess openings, which at this point we could assume she's probably read in her head.
A million times, right. He was the one thing that they couldn't take from her when she was forbid to play. And I was like, you know what, um, I don't think that it's unrealistic, that she, that she, you know, would still have a love for something like that and find it. And there are, you know, even guys like Yasser, Sarah wanted to make a correlation to someone who has a similar story.
Yasir did not become a world champion, but for those who don't know Yaz for anything other than, you know, his appearances on the chess broads show on Twitch Yaz was at some point, I think number three in the world and Yaz. Basically quit the game also throughout his whole adolescence and then committed to it as a, roughly 17, 1800 strength player in his late teens, which is kind of where you would think, well, Beth was already better than that.
Um, maybe, but kind of where you might think she was at and, and Yaz eventually became more the world's elite. So, um, You know, it's hard to say whether people can become a grand master if they decide to pick up chess when they're 40. But I do think that, um, you know, it's not unrealistic that she would lose her love for the game and that she could still get really good.
Despite how cruel and unusual that six year band was. 
James: [00:15:02] It's like riding a bike. At least she was young as a cursor that you can get back on it, you know, the basics. But I think she did have that crutch. Right. She had that MCO book that you're right. I bet that she read every single day over and over again, studied that, you know, Sicilian defense nonstop.
So we see that, you know, she jumps right back in, right back into it really quick because. Um, the show had to go on in some way, and she was adopted at 15 by mr. And mrs. A Wheatley. And can we just stop here and say that Allston, uh, mr. Wheatley is the worst. Like he's just the worst, at least in this episode.
I don't. And future episode that I know of that I've watched so far, um, he's just kind of the worst. And I say 
Danny: [00:15:41] the worst person, the worst dad, the worst role model, the worst thing that would like, you know, like for Beth to like observe how he treats, you know, the. The woman who, you know, becomes her mother, right.
Who she, you know, clearly, clearly learns to love it. It's really heartbreaking. I've watched that with Shauna and I was like, it's like the scene where he's going to the car and it's like every. Horrible thing you could ever say to like a human being, let alone your wife. Right. And I really, I, the reason I wanted to bring that up is obviously it's like, not something you want to talk about, but it's, it really, there's a reason they have it in the show.
Right. And so like, I wonder what your takeaway was from them to me. I took it as there was a very early sort of establishment that. You know, Beth has come from this horrible trauma where we already know she lost her mother. At this point in the show, we don't even really know where the dad is, whatever her thoughts are about what a stable family might bring, kind of get pretty much crashed right away when she sees, you know, him treating.
His wife that way. Right. And I, and I think that there's a part of Beth that as we know, throughout the whole show, without spoilers, we know that this is going to be a character, you know, growing and going through a lot of stuff as she deals with like her issues and becomes a great chess player. And I just think that there was like a foreshadowing of how she was.
Going to view the need for relationships and not like established white den in there in terms of why would she ever want something like that for herself. And again, I don't want to get into foreshadow where things go with the different relationships that Beth has, but what was your takeaway of why they had that in such a clear way in the show?
James: [00:17:10] Yeah, to me, at least a really just cemented the fact that, you know, she is clearly kind of on her own in a weird way that she is not going to have a father figure in her life. Why mr. Scheibel like was for a very short time, it was very different. Right. Um, in this regard, She has grown a lot since she was a kid.
And since her mom passed, there's a lot of symmetry between, um, mrs. Wheatley and her mom with the addiction to kind of drugs, these tranquilizers, the happy pills, if you will. But at the same time, I think that she's grown to say. That th to at least think that she can form a relationship and find out what is the motivation of mrs.
Wheatley and how can she form that? And that's what we start to see in this, which is there is something that mrs. Wheatley can clearly give and, and, and. For her to obviously keep her in the house and keep doing what she wants to do. But mrs. Wheatley also has a motivation. So, I mean, in some odd way, she kind of saves mrs.
Wheelie and, you know, going in and especially the next episode. But you start to see some of that in this episode. But to me, it just was like, Hey, if, if Beth is going to do something. There's not a clear support system and she's going to have to do it on her own. Just like she's been teaching herself chess on her own.
Right. She's not going to have that, that father figure in her life. So it's sad. I mean, and maybe it's just something that's gonna, you know, re put it in her mind over and over again for better or worse. Know, let's talk really quick about this house. I love this house, this wallpaper in this house. 
Danny: [00:18:47] I am so glad you're being sarcastic.
Right. Oh, no, 
James: [00:18:50] I love it. I love every day. 
Danny: [00:18:51] My God, dude, no shots. I talked about. I hate I'm like looking at the house. I'm like, Oh my God. Oh my God, this is my nightmare. This is, this used to be a thing, James. And I don't want you to bring it back. Okay. 
James: [00:19:04] I don't want it for myself, Danny. I can just really appreciate that.
Every single room at different wallpaper, everything was super colorful. I love the, the furniture in the house. I love the TV of others is huge piano, but I was just like, every time they walk into a different room, I'm in thrawled by the wallpaper and the design is so beautiful. I love it. I love this house I'm and you know, finally she has her, her, her place.
She goes to school. I mean, we part start to progress through this. There's less chess of this episode. And yet more chess in a weird way here, but the one thing I want to talk about, she goes to school, you know, not only is mr. Wheatley, the worst I have that written down for two. 
Danny: [00:19:42] Mr. Wheatley is the worst, the worst, 
James: [00:19:44] right?
Yep. Side kiss on cheek. Mr. Mr. Wheelie is the worst. Um, usually gets picked on kids are the worst that that is continued trend. You know, all my life I was, I was picked on quite a bit as a kid. 
Danny: [00:19:57] And that that age is the worst for kids. You know, it's like dealing with insecurities and not finding yourself by constantly looking to bully someone else.
You know, it's like, it's just middle school and high school are just the absolute worst agents in the world. 
James: [00:20:09] No, they're, they're the worst. And, um, you know, in fact, the school that she goes to, there's really not a lot of support. She sits down at the lunch table and she asked the one girl across from her.
If there's a chess club, she has like, no idea about anything. There's all these social clubs. The question I had here though, is. You know, I think when I went to school in, I was in school in Mississippi for a year. I think we actually did have like a high school chess club that I went to, but it wasn't like an ongoing thing.
It was just kind of sporadic. Did you ever, did you have a chess club in school? Are these common, are they becoming more common in any way? 
Danny: [00:20:41] So, uh, first of all, in regards to that era, I think it would be. Okay. This is an area where I may not be super qualified to comment on as far as chess clubs, specifically in the 60 seventies.
But I can say that most likely it would have been super rare, especially if you know, sort of this. Parallel timeline that the show has to those who really know how chess boomed in America months. We talked about this, right? Like the idea that she's kind of based on Fisher in a way, and Fisher was finding himself in preparing to take on the world champions in, in the late sixties and early seventies where he ultimately defeated Spassky in 72.
So what I'm getting to with that whole story is that. The boom of chess in the U S frankly, unlike anything we've ever seen since, since the Queen's gambit, which we're talking about right now, um, happened after 72. And I would say before that time, because of Fisher success of, you know, against the Soviet union and all the things that he became in regards to like a national hero during the cold war, there were, I would, I would be hard pressed to imagine there are very many chess clubs at all.
Now it's possible that high school might have some, because high school, you know, as kids get older, sometimes there are more sort of like student run things versus they always have to be run. Right. But I will say for sure, chess clubs for like elementary kids and junior high kids would have been super rare if at all, it would have been in wealthier schools, almost, probably only private schools.
And, and it really didn't, it really wouldn't have been a thing. Maybe a high school could be realistic to believe that there was a chess club, but by the way, what did the friend say? She said, no, right? Yeah. So wait as I go on and on about it, actually, I think it's very accurate that there was no chess club and, and the, the, the girl immediately starts pushing her toward what is it like cheerleading club or something like that.
She kind of does the typical roll her eyes thing. So, so as I described that, I think that's actually a very, very accurate way that the, that that should have been answered there. Well, 
James: [00:22:31] let's talk, let's talk about the air because I want to, I want to kinda double click on that, which is, you know, we're in the sixties.
Chest is there and there's, it's a round, right? We're we're not quite there. We're early sixties, right? We're not in the 60, 70 era that you're talking about yet. And her and mrs. Wheatley, they do finally get some new clothes for her. They go to Ben Snyder, by the way, a legit Kentucky chain from 1982 to 1993.
Danny: [00:22:53] You look that up. 
James: [00:22:54] Yes. 
Danny: [00:22:55] You also adorable one of the reasons I love you so much. Yeah, 
James: [00:22:58] they were, they were sold in like 83 or something like, or 
Danny: [00:23:02] may notice something very specific when we get to it. I'm waiting for you to say it, but, okay. I just want to say, I also took some notes. Go ahead. 
James: [00:23:07] Good things I've been doing.
I've been doing a lot of research and wait until you get to some of these chest review magazines. I'm excited about that, but she goes shopping and talking about like, just, Hey, how realistic are there chess clubs that are propagating in 1963? You know, she goes into Bedsider and, and there's a huge chest display.
Right. Um, which is kind of funny because to me, it remind me of going into like, uh, you know, uh, uh, going into like a Sears and trying to go to the video game section and like, where's all the Nintendo stuff on the right in the nineties. But are we at the point where like, uh, Ben Snyder, which is a JC penny ask type school store would have a huge dedicated chest section, you know, 
Danny: [00:23:46] probably not.
Right. I mean, neither one of us can really comment on that, but yeah, I would. I would guess that that's I think, I feel like you're right. Maybe that could have been a little more realistic if chess was a part of several other games on display, but you're right. It does make it like, it's a lot of chess.
Like you see the little chess set, the little, like magnet one on the thing, then you see the bigger one. And then I know there's at least one more. So I think that it's, it's possible that really, that should have been a. You know, uh, more of like a general game section is he, she spots the chess set, but I think we'll let him go, let him have a pass on that.
But yeah. 
James: [00:24:21] And so she doesn't get the Chesa because he doesn't have any money. She's going to get an allowance, which is very exciting about, we realized soon that she will not need set allowance. Um, but she's, she's, she's thirsty for chess, right? And there's a, there's a fascinating part where she goes into the library at the school and asked for any chess books.
This is kind of a, a trend, right? The very beginning of this episode is can't 
Danny: [00:24:41] wait for this. You're going to love my notes on this. Go ahead. 
James: [00:24:43] I'm excited into the trend here is that she keeps asking for just sh there's a need there's this desire, right? She just wasn't able to play it, but it never left her soul.
So the librarian says, Oh, it might be over in that corner tucked over there, blah, blah, blah. There might be something from, uh, Jose Kappa, Blanca. And she goes, who's that? And the librarian, you know, it says, Oh, he's a GM, you know, a grand master, all this stuff. I don't understand why she didn't stop in immediately.
Pick the brain of this librarian, because obviously she knew 
Danny: [00:25:17] it was this library, this library. So funny, it's like, uh, you just reminded me of the movie. Uh, what are the, we thank you for smoking where there's like this funny scene, they're debating whether you could smoke on an alien spaceship and he's like, yeah, like that's not possible with like the waste space and aerobic he's no, no, no.
You just have some random character say like, yeah, thank God we invented the thing of a jig and then everyone just accepts it. Right? Random character, insertion of a very important critical. Momentum timeline for the story anyway. Um, so here's what I've made notes of because I immediately, uh, I immediately hear here's.
What I know about knowing chess is that international governing body of the game mentioned that many times when they chose feed a right for Dallas international , which is the international chess Federation did not establish the rewarding of the titles, Grandmaster and international master until the year 1950.
So this right here is actually one of the few mistakes they make in the entire series. Now. In a way it's not actually a mistake because Jose Raul couple Blanca he's normally referred to as Jose Raul Kappa Blanca was a world sheet, was the world champion. Which is really what I think they should have said.
I think they should've said like, well, he was the world champion in 1921 or whatever. Right. They should have said that a grand master title didn't exist for a lot of the early people who you'd like to think of as grand masters, like Paul Morphy or a cup of Blanca or, or Al Yohan. Right. It didn't exist in the fifties.
Now we'll give them a pass because even in the chess world, Often we would refer to like Al Yohan or Morphe these guys as like grand cha, like they were the grand masters of their era, even though actually that's an accurate, there were no international or grand master awarded titles until the fifties.
So just fun fact, I looked that up and it actually was 1950 when feed day started rewarding those titles. Um, but yes, about the librarian you're right. And she does somehow know that Jose Kappa Blanca was a great player. Um, but I would have gone with the heat. Well, Like honey, don't, you know, he was the world champion.
Right. Then you pick her brain. Right. So anyway, that's just a fun, little, little factoid in terms of the timeline of stuff. 
James: [00:27:22] Yeah. And she does find the book it's called my chest career, which was originally published in 1920. Um, don't be full when you go and Google, this, it'll say it's published in 1966. Um, that that's actually not correct.
It was reprinted them. There's many reprints of his, of the book. Um, but it was the book. I couldn't, I couldn't really decipher. I'm assuming they got the original, but I can't really distinguish when it was put out. So when I put this up, I was like, Oh no, they. They really messed up because it wasn't there, but you're right from 1921 to 1927, uh, Jose RO cup of Blanca was the world champion.
But yeah, I'm really surprised that this librarian now, of course, at least in this episode, never again, do we see her? Um, and I I'm like, which is crazy because when you think of the era, this is 40 years earlier and this librarian look like maybe 40 ish, 40, 50 each time before. I mean, young, right? So 
Danny: [00:28:14] not your typical.
Old, misfield sorry. She was my librarian. I love you this fields. That's not nothing wrong with that, 
James: [00:28:21] but, but you're right, right. And, and that's what really surprised me, but Beth can not be bothered. She's off to go find the chess books and go. Now I will tell you this much though. I found a little and I found another inaccuracy inside of this.
Are you ready for this? I don't even think you're going to you're even going to get this. 
Danny: [00:28:36] Okay. 
James: [00:28:37] So she goes and, um, for mrs. Wheatley, she goes and picks up cigarettes for her. And she goes to the pharmacy. My favorite part is that, um, mrs. Wheatley just writes a note that says, yeah, she, this 15 year old can pick up the cigarettes.
That's one at a time. Right? 
Danny: [00:28:53] Well, I I've made a note of that cause I thought it was hilarious and awesome. And what a time to be alive, 
James: [00:28:58] but it's not a time to God. He sees chess review September, September, 1963, chest review. Aye. Search for 30, 40 minutes. I could not find this cover to reference it. That being said, I found November.
I found August. I found September. I found everything except for September. Of of this year, 1963, I was on eBay. I was on the Google searches. I was on all the things I couldn't find this year to see if the covers match, but I'm assuming they did it right now to inaccuracies on the chest review magazine itself.
And I'm just going to this isn't about the chess, but it's about the it's so close, right? Chess review magazine always prints the month and the year. 
Danny: [00:29:47] Oh my gosh. You really did do this is amazing. If I could eat popcorn right now, I would 
James: [00:29:53] This chess review did not have the year on it Danny. It just that September in a different font and location than where it should be just a few pixels off, I will say, but here's the gotcha.
Are you ready for this? Okay. So this chess review says in the bottom left 50 cents. Do you know how much chess review costs in 1963 
Danny: [00:30:14] oh dear god. No, but, um, you're going to tell me 
James: [00:30:18] 60 cents, Danny 60 cents. What? 
Danny: [00:30:22] Oh my God. First of all, this is amazing. I mean, there's a golf clap. Herbert heard our podcast microphone.
I hope not because I just gave you. That's incredible. I feel like I put you through a test, right? And you went full, you know, Barbershop quartet. Right. You know, Kevin Spacey, usual suspects. You're like finding things that no one else is looking at. I love it. Um, I was going to sit here and say how great chess review as a reference was because it was a real magazine.
And when she opened it up, I was paying very close attention to things. The way she actually shows the Hans Kammok book, POM power in chess. Um, I don't know if you caught that. That's actually a very. Famous and one of my favorite books of all time. So those listening to the show are looking for a book.
That's one of Danny. I think it makes my, maybe not top 10, but top 15 as a book that. A very unique book, um, and a very, a very, uh, original way that he approached talking about Paul and structure weaknesses and how to kind of spot position a weaknesses, kind of the forest through the trees for chess players.
And, um, anyways, that was a great, just like quick reference. I was like, Oh, wow, let's come on. Hold power and chest, but wow. Okay. So you, you really, you really busted their, uh, their pituitaries there on that. James. I love 
James: [00:31:33] that. Uh, yeah, I, I had to break it down in some way and I did, I did, I went through and I was trying to look at all the pages.
So on the, on the, on the, so let's talk about the, the pawn stuff. First. I did notice that she stopped directly on a board position. Is that position nine? Position after nine P Q N four. Um, and I'm assuming that's a reference to what you were just 
Danny: [00:31:55] saying Queens night for 
James: [00:31:56] Queensland for, um, which was, which was fascinating.
I didn't get a lot of time to investigate that, but on the front of the magazine, it said board one U S team. And I'm assuming that was a reference to the photo on the cover. And there was a big insert on the USSR chess championship that was apparently happening in 1963. Is this the thing that really happened in 1963?
The 
Danny: [00:32:17] USSR championship is still today. One of the, okay, now it's the Russian super final. Um, in fact, it's happening in December coming up and we've had some scheduling difficulties cause let us love our tambien is playing Magnus. Carlsen in our speech has championship. And that has led to difficulties in terms of finding a day that works for both those players.
Okay. It's been distressed point, but I did work it out. They're playing on December 3rd. If this podcast comes out before then, which they probably will, um, Uh, yes, it is still a thing. And, uh, being a winning a USSR championship was one of the hardest things in the world to do you remember the Soviet union at this time is not only often the, the country of the world champion, but also like the world number two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, and top 25 players in the world.
Like no joke. The Soviet union was so dominant. And so, um, It was more than Russia then, right? It w and, um, winning a USSR championship was something that often at times you could argue some of the best players in the world didn't always get the chance to compete for the world title. Cause there was also a lot of, a lot of politics and a lot of, um, historically.
Oh, we'll get it all the conspiracy theories now. But there were historically reasons why Russia wanted certain people to be, or sorry, the Soviet, and wanted certain people to win and not others. And sometimes that has led to stories where, you know, people feel like some of the best chess players in Russia, some of them was talented minds, really got to be who they were themselves instead of like, instead of not being themselves in the USSR championship.
Um, and you think of guys like, uh, Leonid Stein, linens Stein is one of the most talented guys to ever play the game when multiple, uh, USSR championships and never really, um, he died young, but also never got a chance at the title. Uh, anyway, so yes, not only was it a thing, but it was a, probably the most prestigious event, um, to play in and win of the era.
James: [00:34:10] Oh, wow. Wow. So they had that totally. Right. And they did, they do make some references to, to, uh, Russian players, I think later on in the episode, not in this episode, I think in the, I think in this episode and in the next episode, they do pretty heavily. So some, you know, they, they do a lot of correlation where they show something early on.
They bring it back a little bit later. Um, but I thought this was a great nod. I love that she steals this magazine because again, she doesn't have 50 cents. She has 40 cents. Right. That's our allowance. And 
Danny: [00:34:37] finally, normally she should be 20 cents short. Thank you to the investigation from James Monto magnet.
Um, yeah, but I love that she handles that. Yeah. It also shows that she's, she's kind of been like a starving, you know, starving, you know, animal now for years on chest. Right. It was like, she was not going to be denied. Not be denied that opportunity to, uh, to get that chest magazine. 
James: [00:34:58] And my favorite, my favorite part of going through she's going through it.
And that really gets her, is that she sees the Kentucky state championship in here. And I wrote down a bunch of things that, you know, we're going to get to the, the, the, the KFC, if you will. Um, but so a few things in here that they marked down that I don't actually know if they follow that we'll get to it.
But the Kentucky state championship is it says 50 moves slash two hours. And, uh, that's what it says in the newspaper. And later on we hear about 90 minutes is the 50 move slash two hours that is written. What does that look relating to in a, in a chess championship, at least in this era? 
Danny: [00:35:38] So, first of all really did I love, I love the detail.
Um, so 50 moves in two hours is a very standard time control of the era as, as time controls evolved over time, the, the even more standard one. For example in the eighties and nineties and into the early two thousands, when I was playing it's so many, so many top servers from the U S was actually 40 moves in two hours, they made it a little bit harder to reach.
So, um, or sorry, actually a bit easier to reach. Uh, you don't have to make quite as many moves in the, in the length of the time. Um, and but 50 moves into hours means the clock starts. And whenever you make a move, you, you hit your clock and the other person's clock runs. Um, and. That person has a full two hours to make a total of 50 moves.
And if they reach this goal and the game is somehow still going, uh, just so you know, most games and tournaments have that time, but you would probably end around the three hour Mark, like somewhere in the middle game, mid thirties to early forties moves it hasn't quite reached the full four hour Mark where both sides would be under time pressure.
Those games would end there. Some games would make time pressure, and then the other games. After the 50 moves and two hours, depending on the event would actually go to a German. And we'll talk more about that as the series goes on, um, what a German is and why it was such a critical thing about the era, um, and, and kind of led to some of the most emotionally, you know, kind of uplifting moments of the show.
Spoiler alert later on in the show. So a German is a real thing. And if you had made all your moves and you reached the end of the time control and neither player lost on time, often the game would be adjourn. Which means they would take a break and sometimes a break would be like an hour. If it was like a weekend tournament, we had to get a bunch of games.
Sometimes a break could be the whole night, a whole day where you can actually look at the position. So that, that is a standard thing. And, um, just for context, cause that's why I'm here modern day controls. It would be 40 moves at two hours, but there would be no adjournment at the 40th move. Each side would get a little bit more time, sometimes a half hour, sometimes a full hour.
And that would be all of your time. You have left to finish the gate. Um, because as time has gone on and we've evolved as a society, we've learned that we don't have any time for things and everything must be fast, fast, fast. And so now there are no extra days to play a chess game. It's the game has to end in that setting.
So if you make it to that point, we assume the end game is being played. You get a hold of their hour, that's it. You're you're like, that's it, that's a six hour freaking game, bro. That's a long game, but yeah, that, that would be it. And you got to finish the game within that time control. Now, 
James: [00:38:07] would this be for every single, so obviously it's like a tournament, right?
Would this, are these rules, the 50 and two or the 42 hour Mark? Is that for every single game or is that only for like the fi the final game that they're talking about? 
Danny: [00:38:20] No, most of the time it would be every single game. It's actually really. Rare that a time good show would ever change mid mid event.
That would only be for like, you know, maybe some sort of special invitational where they play a rapid portion and then a long portion of whatever that's, that's not really an accurate kind of depiction of, of, of what a termor would be. It would, it would pretty much be whatever the set time control is throughout the whole weekend.
Got it. 
James: [00:38:43] Okay. Yeah. We'll talk about a little bit when she plays her first match and the inaccuracy. I think we have there, but I did find another inaccuracy before we move on specifically. Now, maybe chess review, printed, things wrong. I don't want to give chest review in 1963, this fake, this fake, but yet real magazine that existed in this show.
So here's the fascinating part about this is. While they say that the entrance fee is only $5. It's actually kind of not. What you see is that the entrance fee is $5, but there's also a fee that the Kentucky chess association has listed, which is $6. So that actually makes an entry fee of $11. And that's important because I want to point out here, Danny, that first place gets a hundred dollars or $850 of equivalent, 20, $20 that did the conversion of my head.
By the way, um, second place gets $50. Third place gets $20 and then fourth place gets $10, which means I actually lost a dollar somehow if they had to do both fees and we're already in, we're not part of the, the KCA, which to me seems odd, just, just in a weird way. Okay. So 
Danny: [00:39:56] I 
James: [00:39:56] think that's 
Danny: [00:39:57] believe it or not, that's actually.
That's pretty standard because the reason you play the KC a KCF fee, that's an annual fee. So you only have to pay it once. Right. So if someone pays that, then the interview for the tournament is standard. So yes, in theory, if you, as you said, if someone was signing up for their first event, had to renew their dues or sign up and pay the entry fee, they could like.
No, I have not made money, but overall that's, that's actually, I mean, the, the, the Federation fees and dues for a new member is pretty standard. So I actually really liked that they had that because I think it's part of a first tournament experience where I've literally as the guy, I mean, you know, in a former life, all I did was run local tournaments on the weekend.
Right. I mean, I, my before, before chess.com, it was literally my job to, I was running a business, which was about teaching kids and then running tournaments and private lessons. And I cannot tell you how many times I've dealt with a newcomer who comes to play and they say, no, the entry fee was only 25 bucks.
I'm like, yeah, but you're not a USCF member. They're like what the bleep is the USCF I'm like, well, that's the governing body that gives you a rating. Why do I need a rating? Well, the rating peers, you against people of similar shrink. Well, how do you know how good I am? Well, because you play a few games.
Once you've played 30, your rating is no longer provisional. Now you have an official rating. We know how good you are. And I know what section to put you in. Well, why does that matter? Because you gotta be in the right session to play the right people and have a chance to win a prize. Okay. So what's this all about, you got to pay a USCF, do buddy.
It's $25 for the year. Not that much. All right. Final pay it like literally. That conversation bro has happened between me. I actually really the only part of that initial conversation between those two guys that, that I think would not be realistic is kind of how, how kind of like condescending, they are a little bit in terms of how good she thinks she is, but to be fair, Beth Harman is also like a super difficult person, right?
So she's walking up with like an attitude and they're like, yo, what, regardless of the fact that she's a girl and we're in the sixties and there's a certain level of, I mean, I would never use the word natural sexism, but here's the deal. Like no women play chess at that time. Right. So they're like these two young guys who were like, who is this girl playing here?
And she thinks she's like the best. Right? And so they're like, they're, they're acting like jerks, cause there's no excuse for that. But at the same time, they're kind of taken aback. And as someone who's been in the organizer shoes of like people showing up and having zero idea and thinking they're like the best there, there's a part of them that is like, What is going on here, right?
Like, so that's like a whole thing that happens right there that I actually thought was, was kind of funny and realistic. And clearly they had some understanding of what our first sort of, I don't know who consulted on that, but they did a great job. 
James: [00:42:25] That's awesome. Because it's like exactly how you broke it down.
You can tell that you. Have stated that, that thing over and over and over again to so many people over the years and they started had it rehearsed too. Like they kind of broke it down as if they know a lot of new people were coming into this and because she does get the money, right. Actually, mr.
Scheibel sends her the money out. Now here's the thing. Technically mr. Scheibel would have to have center $11 and she said she only needed $5 to enter this thing, which as we know is not correct because Beth Harmon is not a member of the Casey.  
Danny: [00:42:59] yes. A hundred. So what you did was you found out sort of like a great dialogue.
They added actually leads to kind of a storyline error. Right? And we could, we can also say maybe mr. Scheibel sent her extra money. Cause he knew this and she just didn't want to tell anyone else that she got extra money. I mean, okay. Obviously I'm completely full of it here, but you're, you're a hundred percent.
Right? 
James: [00:43:19] So let's so we get to the tournament, they break this down sheet. No, actually, before we get to this. At this level, since you've done so many tournaments, how would this thing actually be there? Now? This is a, um, she's in the unrated category, which means, I assume you're, you're unrated, you're under 1600.
You don't have a number yet. They say there's three people over 1800, you know, they, they they're telling her this, but for normal viewer, these are just numbers. Right. Um, w they put her in the very bottom. And the unrated, there's a bunch of unrated people here. There's I don't know, like 12 or so there seems to be a lot of unread people and a lot of rated individuals.
How they perform this tournament, how they placed her, how they placed other people. Was that accurate? Is that, is that how, if I, if I would today, Danny walk into a chess club with just, you know, tournament, is that how I'm going to be treated exactly the same? Would there, is there any differences there?
Danny: [00:44:14] Yeah. So, yeah. I'm glad you brought this up. Cause I actually, this was one of my notes about. Uh, the local pairing, hearing the girls like against each other, which is kind of unfair. I talked about the sexism, they had that like comes out and kind of their tone, but it's also kind of condescending. It's not even necessarily sexist.
It's sort of condescending this new player who thinks that they're going to dominate. Right. But I would say that actually. So she demands to play in a section of higher rated players. This is sort of something that would be a little bit rare. Most of the time a new person coming would be happy with playing in the unrated division or the beginner division.
It would be like unrated up to like 1200. This would be a common thing, like zero to 1200. You might have 1200 to 1800. Actually we cut it off at 1799, right. And 1199. And then the 1800, that might be the open section to just give an example of a local tournament. Right. And for someone to demand, to be in the top section rather than like the beginner or like the reserve, it was often called in the middle or the open is kind of rare.
And so if you had someone who's brand new and someone else who also clearly demanded that because the young lady she plays must be in that same section. That's where she demanded to play it. Like, it's not, it's not something that you, you would see standard these days because computers do the pairing and actually a low rated person would actually play a higher rate of person first.
So her first rating or sorry, her first pairing based on the Swiss system, that governance chess would be like, what? You do a Swiss citizen, you have a hundred people, you cut them in half. So one place 50, like two plays like that. Right. So you cut it in half. So 
James: [00:45:49] that's going 
Danny: [00:45:49] to be exactly how it is. Right, but, but in this scenario with two local local people wanting to play, they're both beginners.
It's not the most uncommon thing, even though it is, you know, portrayed and, and, and it would be sexist to go out of your way to just play pair. The two girls, it's not the most uncommon thing that a local tournament organizer, if it was just literally like that, like something that they're doing and these days, without any computer software, he would try to pair people by similar strength.
Like that's not okay. A totally out of the line thing to do. It's out of the line. If you're pairing people by similar shrank and because they're both girls, um, but it's not out of the line. I would think for a local tournament tournament organizer to say, well, these guys are going to play with each other and they're and if they win, we'll see how it we'll see how far they get.
Because at that point, you're, you're running it locally without computer software support that has like the Swiss master built in and your contract. You're kind of trying to give people their best game. So it was an odd thing, but they, what I would say is two things. One it's actually not that abnormal that that could happen.
And two, they depict it really well, but it's kind of, it's still unfair, right? It's not exactly how it should be, but it's not that odd that a tournament organizer might do that, especially in the, um, but yeah, so it's. I think the overall point is like, even though some of those details made me be like, Oh, like what's going on?
Like what I ever do that, like, if someone showed up at the last second, you know, and they demanded a play the open section, like you paired them so that they have a game. Cause like for example, sometimes you get an odd number and the choices are. You know, this person doesn't get to play this first round because they're the bottom rated person, which is their own fault.
They demanded to play in the open and their own rated I've had that happen so they can either sit out or I can give them a game against someone who might be of similar shrinks. Right. And, and that gets them in the, in the tournament. So those sorts of things do happen all the time. I think the overall like environment, the, the way that they set up, both the.
Kind of the unfairness that they would pair the two girls against each other, but also sort of the realistic experience that they're both kind of knew like, and she sort of helps Beth figure out what to do in the tournament. Like that whole thing was just done super well in my, in my view. And it just creates kind of a.
It sets the tone where even though Beth is ahead of a lot of people in terms of her chest brilliance, she's so far behind people like socially, we see this theme throughout the whole show, right? And so she doesn't really know what this whole environment is about. Even though she knows she's going to kick this girl's butt, right.
She has to figure out like how to press the clock and how to do the notation and the way that they describe things is actually pretty realistic, you know? Um, The one thing that was sort of odd and unfair is they put the two girls on a table where everyone was also getting their coffee and water. Yeah.
James: [00:48:26] I have that written down. I have that written down crappy that's real crappy. Yeah. 
Danny: [00:48:31] And that definitely plays into the U2 shouldn't be here, which is the sexist part that I, I like looked at. It was like, yeah. That's that, that no one would ever do that, especially not in that kind of like environment or way.
So anyway, I gave him, I gave a long-winded answer to that, but hopefully that helps. 
James: [00:48:46] In fact, I have it written down here. I have that written down, like put up against the only other woman, right. Sat next to the coffee. It had some odd, um, throwback to the first episode where her bed was right next to the bathroom.
That everybody had to walk by, right. Everyone to go around. Like you're not really quite welcome here. That's kind of what they're saying in a, in a way, and yeah, you see it. So, but, but I think in some regards you're right, it kind of helps her because the, um, uh, uh, net packer is her name, um, who she played first was very helpful.
Right. She explained the rules, winners play winners, losers, play losers up the ranks. She does say that each player she's explaining the clock has 90 minutes, which. I said earlier would be inaccurate because they would have two hours. 
Danny: [00:49:29] Oh. Because you have an eye of an Eagle and that is incredible. And I love you for that.
That's so funny. Cause I like hide yourself. Like I'm not looking for things like that. And you're just like crushing this, uh, this detail because the organizer would say, no, I just, I changed the time control later on. But no, you caught him. You caught him. Red-handed cause that's not a thing that organizer would do.
They would not change the publicly advertised time patrol. 
James: [00:49:50] That's right now. They did not. Um, they did not advertise it. It's a touch move, but I'm assuming our municipal standard. Okay. Yeah. How does that work with chess.com? Is that a rule type that you can set up touch minutes? So 
Danny: [00:50:03] funny because we have had requests from our most, our both serious membership base, which is.
Like to be quite honest is not our largest membership base. Right. I mean, the, the thing that puts us in such a unique and fortunate position is we have the domain name and, and, you know, we've have apps that people find easily unserved. So most of our membership base and even our paying membership base have never played at a chess tournament.
Right. Like just.com is their thing. And then, but we have, I'll call it our us chess and feeding and membership base, which is still like 75 to a hundred thousand. Not only very active, but like rabid members. Right. And sometimes requests from those members are just so uniquely different to what the online experience is.
And one of them that we've had, there's two that we get a lot. One from a small user base is I want you to make the default time patrols on chess.com like one-hour chess or 30 minute chess, uh, you know, the default time, which is 10 minutes. Yes. And like, most people want to play faster than that, but this is this group of people will never accept for the life of them, that people would rather play a three minute game on the subway and we're not going to like.
Basically, they don't even have the consequence of, Oh, that would send like a million users to not playing because they'd be like, I don't have time for 30 minutes and most people don't even know how to change the default time control. Right. Anyway, so I digress from like product, you know, what it is to build like product UI and UX.
So we can't make those members happy. But then the other request they have is I want to have touch, move version where like, we both agree that if you even click on a piece, it's touch, move. It's just so not necessary online. And in fact, if you see even the best players play, often, they, they fiddle with pieces.
Whether it's like a nervous tick or whatever. I mean, they even, it's just not a necessary experience. It is something we've had requested. Many times it's so funny. Right. But it's not a thing that you would, we've ever thought to build in as like a variant type, you know, that you, you and your opponent can both agree ahead of time.
If you touch a piece you're locked in. It's interesting. It's not that we would never do it, but it's just, it never gets I high on the product roadmap because you're like, who would, who would want to do that in online chess? 
James: [00:52:03] Yeah. It, it, it is quite strange. Um, yeah, it would be, that is fascinating. I always think of the 80 20 rule.
That's something I always play by that. The thing that is best for 80% of people compared to the 20% of people is usually the right thing to do. Because if you want to keep the 80%, you don't want to build features for the 20%, because often that 20% is smaller than that. But I always try to look at it in that regard, right.
Of can we satisfy 80% because. You know, I want to grow that 80% base. Cause it's always going to be larger than 20%. And it's hard because once you introduce more and more features, you can't take them back. Which again, we're getting into a product now, 
Danny: [00:52:37] right? No, I think, I think people like that, part of our that's the world, you and I both live in and we will stay in it long, but no, you're right.
It is an interesting thing. And, um, anyway, yeah, we'll, we'll digress back to the show, but that's cool. 
James: [00:52:50] So she crushes her Joe packer destroyed. Basically, Beth is the first one to turn in the paper, followed by towns. We get our first glimpse at towns. They've already gotten their first glimpse at each other, um, recurring character going on, but I want to talk about this Clark spoiler, spoiler, actually, no spoilers because.
I mean, you could just tell there's a, there's some something in there. Glimmer 
Danny: [00:53:11] foreshadow towns is going to be a character just by the way. He's I like him. 
James: [00:53:15] I like it. And I like him in this, in this one. And the 
Danny: [00:53:17] episodes. Are you in now at this point, have you, have you finished it or are you still 
James: [00:53:20] no, I mean, I'm only four episodes in, because I stopped when we said we were going to do this bond.
Danny: [00:53:25] Right. And you're going to be watching the fifth episode when we get to that for the first time. Correct. That's I cannot wait for that episode. That's in three weeks from now. Everyone hit that subscribe button and don't go anywhere. Anyway, go ahead. 
James: [00:53:35] So she crosses another there's this top board area, which I think is fascinating and we have beltic and colon sitting over here.
Now they said that there three people over 1800 now beltic is the top rated player here. He's a 2150. What does that actually mean? Because I know on chess.com. I know I'm not a 2150, but. If you're in this kind of state championship and you're walking in as an unrated player, um, what does it look like?
What does that mean? That, that belt tick is a 
Danny: [00:54:02] 2150. They, they depict this so well, because they kind of say that he's, he's almost a master. He's not, uh, I'm pretty sure they say that. I don't think they portray him as a master. They say he's like, He's uh, he's about a 
James: [00:54:13] master, he's a state state champion. And th and then she asks, is he a, is he a grand master?
And he said, 
Danny: [00:54:19] Oh yeah, 
James: [00:54:21] that's right. You have to play a GM to be a GM. 
Danny: [00:54:23] Right, right. All that stuff, which is a very oversimplified version of how you become a gym, but it's not wrong. But that's what town's says. So, so yeah, I had noticed about this section too. I wanted to say that. The top board section being put up with those kinds of like tall things is usually they would just do it with a rope.
They wouldn't actually be trying to hide the top boards visually from the rest of the room, but that's not uncommon. And it is kind of cool. And I like to think that in an era like that, where I don't know, just fancy schmancy things were done, that they would do that. I really liked the separation. Um, Beltic being 2150 means he's almost a master.
So the master level is 2200, 2,200. Um, and for comparison, for those who don't know the ratings, the best players in the world are roughly 2,800. So from master to 2,800, there's, there's different titles. You could earn along the way and we'll get into that later on. But, um, so he's almost a master level player.
It would probably be realistic that in the sixties, most States. Their best player would not be a grand master or an international master. Most state's best player would be somewhere around the master level player for some guy who randomly is in Kentucky for some reason. Right. But the only States at this time that would have had Grandmaster and we'll call it international titled level talent would be New York and California.
And so, um, that's, that's a pretty real depiction. Um, even. I mean maybe Vegas, because there were some big tournaments there. Right. Even then, but overall, no one would have residents there. The international players were mostly in New York in the, in the Northeast area. Um, and so that was, I thought that was well done to, to create kind of her first, her first sort of white whale, right.
That she has to overcome right. Is about a master level player, almost in the state of Kentucky. 
James: [00:56:08] Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was, was pretty, pretty fascinating in general. Would it, would everybody be gathered around that board? I mean, this is the first, literally the first match would there, there that'd be okay.
Danny: [00:56:17] Yeah, it would be because the, um, they do to pick a lot of people there, I'll say for a Kentucky state championship. I mean, yeah. I don't know. Maybe I just missed out playing in the Arizona state championship where nobody cared anyway. Um, it's. It's a little bit extreme, but at the same time, if you're assuming being an open level tournament where state championships would have the top section of reserve, like a middle group and then a beginner, you know, and if you've got a hundred people there, it's very common that here's what everyone does in those rooms.
As their game finishes, they go watch the best players a hundred percent. So it is not unrealistic at all that the top boards would have people around them watching what is unrealistic here and is actually. Small spoiler alert through the rest of the show. I think for the dramatic feel of the show, they do tend to let the spectators be a little closer and then there happens to be this like, like then they would normally be right.
And then like the dialogue that happens, like we're, beltic like, you know, kind of yells like, Hey, like, you know, whatever he says, right. She's talking to towns and he's like, you know, would you please, whatever, like that part of it is dramatic effect. I think setting up the tension between the characters that is not realistic, not just because they would never be talking that closely to here.
He would never yell. And probably the only one I want to bring up because it occurs in other episodes is probably you would never be able to even stand that close spectators would not be that close to one of the players there. Um, not only nowadays, but even back then. 
James: [00:57:43] Gotcha. And there was even a weird part too, where later on, where I think that Harmon was playing cook, who's a 1520, those are her next game.
Um, you know, towns. The, you know, is very similar. So when, when beltic is playing Colin, you know, it's calling and says, do you want to draw belt says, hell no. Right? 
Danny: [00:58:04] Yeah. That's unrealistic. Sorry. I had to say that, especially, this was the one. We'll get into the last game with her and beltic, and you can bring up things you briefly mentioned to me before we started.
This was the one note I have. I'm going to read out the belt. Exene is the first and most unrealistic Jessie. And I can think of through the entire series. I, that right here. Now that's a good spoiler for the rest of the show. I don't think they messed so much and we've already called this the gold standard many times.
I'm not going back on that, but I did find that scene just a little odd, like a 2150. Like, what are they trying to portray him as like kind of a punk, like that would never happen. You would never respond to someone's draw for, with a hell. No. And the fact that it's one move away from resigning means that his opponent would probably also never offer a draw.
Like you don't, they do this in the next game that, that, that, uh, that has, and I'm sure you already made it over. They, she gets offered a draw right before she wins. Right. That's not a thing that typically happens in chess tournaments normally. Although, as I say this, honestly, I made notes of this. The more I talk about it, whenever you have tournaments that mix.
Let's say when they, when you mix mama with the kids, I say this a lot, right? You don't want to play with kids cause you get, you know what, right. When you mix the top players with beginner players, you are more likely to have odd things for several reasons. Like the beginner players don't know when to resign, but that whole ethical thing we've talked about, right?
A beginner players are probably more likely to not know that it's completely unethical to offer a draw in a loss position. Like it's not something you do. And also. The response of offering a draw to like the top player. Like even though they would never say hell, no. Okay. If I, if I put my most creative hat on and give benefit of the doubt, there are some local eccentric chess players and some, you know, some abusive, you know, You know, whatever, uh, Russia, chess coaches I may or may not have had that might have said inappropriate things to me for acting like a kid.
When I was a kid, those things did happen. I've been, I've been like yelled at for like clicking my 10 I've been yelled at for, for offering a draw. Actually, when I was in a lawsuit know, Holy crap, it's all coming back to me. Um, no, but the point is I was very young and. As I say this it's kind of funny because it would never happen.
And I took exception to it, especially the, it was one move. As I talk about it, I'm realizing I'm the idiot idiot in the room. Maybe they're that good at recognizing an open event where the top player is playing a weak player in the first round. That will, I'll put it this way. That is the only time it could happen.
Someone who's completely out of the weeds with what the chef's world is about against a top player. And he's that eccentric that he's going to actually act like that it's it is possible. Oh my God, I'm going to eat my words. 
James: [01:00:42] That's funny. Um, yeah, it's really fascinating because you know, they sit and there's like three people over 1800 and yeah, yeah, yeah.
Colin is not, he's a 1760 as of, so that could be, we're just literally. Deltek is thinking that, but it's funny that you say about the clicking the pen and doing other things, because we see later on this recurring pattern of these. I call it, I put disrespectful down disrespectful things that these people are doing.
But anyways, I kind of think that cook here in the next match versus Harmon cook is a 1520, uh, same thing. Uh, they got queen sacrifice. Um, she, she does a queen sacrifice. He's feeling so good about it, right? He has no idea. What's about to hit him. She, she basically. Checks, em, it's pretty much game over. You can't see this, this game being played, but yet he offers up a draw, which I think again is pretty disrespectful because he knows, and she knows that he knows, and she knows, and everybody knows what's going on here in a weird way, but maybe you're correct.
As a 1520, he may have seen the beltic one earlier and saying, you know what, this girl doesn't know anything. I'm just going to offer it up. But then towns. Yeah. Towns shakes has had no, 
Danny: [01:01:48] that's also not. No, you can't do that. No, you can't. You can't ever give advice like that. And, and I had the note of that, that, that was also the draw.
I already mentioned it earlier, before my rant that those were the two examples of these like desperation draw offers. Right. Right. And, and the fact that you reminded me that these players were rated 17 and 1500 means I'm going back to recounting my recant. My original branch was accurate and not my recant.
Like that's just not something of 1500 or 1700 would do. Like the examples I was giving were like little kids who are like 1200, 1300 at most, right at that point, uh, 15, 1700 have been yelled at enough, understood the game enough and the culture that it's seen as just pure disrespect. And so you just don't do it because after you do it, you go, Oh yeah.
That was not good. I mean, there, there are many other people are like, wow, I didn't know what she has had so many unwritten rules. Believe me. I'm not even touching. This is the tip of the iceberg, but this is like a clear thing. That's a little odd again. We could recap my recant again to say it's possible, but I think I've set the tone enough to say, like, it would be very rare for something like that, to be the case.
Maybe against a young woman, who's like clearly, right. A fish out of water. She doesn't belong here. Kind of thing. Right here. I am recapping again. Maybe he would do that out of desperation. Right. And maybe she doesn't know what to do. So she looks at towns and he breaks a rule directly by giving advice, but does so to sort of protect this young woman, who's kind of, you know, potentially going to be bullied.
Right. The more I talk about it. It all makes sense again. Darn it. Go ahead. Go ahead. 
James: [01:03:21] Oh my goodness. It's funny because there are a lot of unwritten rules to a lot of games, right? I'm a golfer as well. It used to be at least, but there's so many unwritten rules in the world of golf, especially on the, on the green, on the, on the putting green, um, when you get to the end.
So it's like a lot of fascinating parts here too. Um, but you know, I'm not actually sure how towns is doing in this match because. Not far in town's plays Harmon and on the board kind of she's now moving up against rated players, but towns is kind of on the bottom, even though he's sorta set up to be this kind of pretty decent player.
Um, but I love this game because, um, this one's really great because. Uh, they're super smitten by each other from the very beginning. Uh, we opened up, I actually have this game in the show notes, at least the opening, uh, the Scandinavian defense is the, is the play here. I at least got through, um, bout seven moves and then I, again, then they, all of a sudden they just jumped to the end game.
Um, But my favorite part of this one is they do jump to the end game. People are watching and ed Beth is chasing this poor Rook. Um, With the King and he goes, um, is like, you know, you're, you're what you're about, why you're making him suffer. Right. And he says, don't worry. He doesn't have it. Doesn't have to suffer much longer.
Right. Just alone. I love that line. That is brilliant. The 
Danny: [01:04:49] dialogue there is, as you can imagine, right. A little bit, whatever, but it's also like, it's an interesting. Thing they're trying to portray, right? I mean, there's this guy challenged, who's been like accepting, supportive. Like she's like, she kinda likes him.
Right. So she is like, they kind of like have this thing where they almost want to talk to each other at the board. Right. And I've had that with friends where like you play a friend, not someone who I met in one tournament, but I've had moments with friends where like, If you were a friend, even in a top tournament, like you might say something to the guy.
So I actually, at first had a critical note here and ended up giving it a pass based on like, if you're assuming your friends, like, that's a rare thing for someone to be so friendly with someone in a first event. But if we jump past that and say they had an instant connection, like sometimes like under the breath dialogue would take place, I've had.
I've met some pretty funny, but with one of the most funny, sorry, I have to share this. Cause I laugh every time I think about it. I was playing a game at a top tournament in Philadelphia where. Uh, we were paired for some reason, the two boards next to each other were me and four of my friends. Right. I was playing one as someone who's like one of my, one of my better friends, the two kids next to us were total friends.
And we're all playing the super serious chess games where we're going to go after each other. Right. One of our, one of the friends is a more obnoxious one and. He makes a move where the piece kind of falls over a little bit, like not like kind of a, you know, it's disrespectful to do that. You're supposed to make a move, put it on the square, clearly hit the clock.
Right. But he does it in a sloppy way and hits the clock. You would never do that. You have to set up your piece. If you do it sloppily before you hit the clock, because otherwise you're adjusting on your opponent's time while they're trying to think that's disrespectful. Right. And it's like unethical against their clock.
In fact, that's one of those unwritten rules. If you do it multiple times, the tournament director will penalize you concretely. Like you can get forfeited or have time taken off your clock for doing it. So this happens and my friend who's playing me, reaches over to their board after the guy does it and, and, and adjust the piece he reaches over and goes, adjust and picks it up and hits the other guy's clock back for them on the other board, it was anyway, it brought like the house down because it like, totally showed that this other guy, like, Hey, you're being classless, stop being a jerk.
Right. And anyway, so. I don't know why I had to tell that story, but I had to, the point is even in serious tournaments, if you're friendly with someone, occasionally those kinds of things can happen when you get to the world elite and you're playing, you know, a silly bore Goff, and we're going to get to the, to the guy who's like, you know, the arch nemesis and the, like, that would never happen.
And to be fair, it never does. Right. Um, but anyway, so I thought that was kind of funny. 
James: [01:07:21] Uh, can you talk a little bit about this opening a little bit here, um, and just sort of this, this, this game, because I haven't. It's a very fascinating opening, uh, that happens here because, you know, we're, we're in a King's pawn opening.
We enter a Scandinavian defense and it's really fascinating to me because she's just sucking up pawns, you know, along the way. Uh, and I just feel like that's, that's weird. And w what is it about this opening and how this play happened here? Like, what is special about this opening? What is the strategy here from white and black on the board?
Danny: [01:07:54] So, first of all, I have to say, what's special about this opening to start is that you're using the chess.com game Explorer tool to give me links in our show notes here. And you're the man. And so this actually is an opening. It's not the most common of openings, but the Scandinavian defense, which starts with  on move one.
So for those of you who now want to do this, please click the link that James amazingly provided to following it along. Um, and D five is. The Scandinavian is, is not maybe opening this plate consistently at the highest levels because you're sacrificing a center pawn. And if you take it back with your queen, you're already losing a bunch of time.
And, and, and further this gambit was C6 is kind of even more rare, but the point is it, it is actually a hundred percent something that would happen. Um, it, it is, it is quite possible. And the position that they reach and the position that you depicted was very well done. So I don't even know that much needs to be answered here besides.
It's not an opening. You would see at the highest levels, it's exactly an opening you would see at those levels. And you did a great job because I know that you're doing all this just from watching and you're not a grand master level chess player. Forgive me. Right. But you're doing this basically by just watching firsthand, which is just super 
James: [01:09:03] impressive.
Yeah, it's, it's quite a challenge. It's because they don't show every single move. Sometimes they skip a single move, a double move, a triple move, and you have to stitch it together. Luckily, I have played just a tiny little bit and I've watched an excellent international master 
Danny: [01:09:19] chess. 
James: [01:09:20] Describe chess for many hours on Twitch.
That's you? 
Danny: [01:09:23] Um, that's spoiler 
James: [01:09:25] spoiler alert. So she crushes towns. That's it. At the end of the day. Um, And that's it. I mean, it's kinda crazy how short, you know, how much they've had this dance in a way, right? The sort of dance around each other, made glimpses at each other. They're talking on the board and then it's kind of over.
And, uh, and that's it. But this game obviously went on for a long time and I wish I could see the entirety of the pledge. You think it would be, it would be really cool to see, but maybe a little bit less. So now that I know that it's not, uh, maybe. The highest of level of chests that we would be talking about in this era, at least.
Um, funnily enough, but, um, anything else you wanna talk about this game at all? Or do you want to continue 
Danny: [01:10:06] on? I think we can continue on, I think, you know, the opening, like you said is interesting. I think I'll just say that again. It depicts, what I feel is accurately, the level of chess, the openings they play.
And as we know, we're going to get in to the series as it goes on. I think they do a good job. I said this in our first podcast of the chess, evolving along with the characters, evolving both on and off the board. And I feel like, you know, you did a good job, kind of bring it up. But I think, I think this is actually pretty appropriate for the level of chess that we're currently out here.
James: [01:10:35] Yeah. And immediately after this, a real, like you were saying in the character development, because it's not all about chess. In fact, you know, we're going to chess a little bit later in this podcast because in the show they got to the chess later in the, in the show. But, um, yeah, the real coming of age tale that we have here for Beth Harmon, uh, puberty strikes in the middle of a, this, this tournament.
She starts her period. And, and that runs in after her just to tell her how good the game was and helps her out. And, you know, You know, funnily enough, like she doesn't have any friends in school and yet, and that packer who she destroys in the first game, I just have to imagine it was just a ridiculous destruction.
Right. Um, I don't know. Um, not that unedited baggers bad in any way, just by how fast she literally beat her. But, um, you know, it goes and helps her out, becomes a friend and. You know, like, like the librarian Beth is like cool piece by I'm going back and back to chess. You know what I mean? It's fascinating.
Yeah. This is the star. And we see this later on progressing where she sort of forms a bond with mrs. Wheatley around again, mr. Wheelie, worst character, worst person ever, um, and forms a bond there. But we get Sizemore here, Sizemore V Harmon. Uh, we don't see any of this game by the way, to be honest with you, there's nothing there except for, he loves to comb his hair.
Just like have to click your pen. And I 
Danny: [01:11:55] love the look that she gives him. So combing your hair is not a thing. I mean, that is a, I'll tell you what that would certainly not be, you know, COVID appropriate. Okay. That is a you're. I mean, you are shut you're, you're sharing your hair with your hands and that's just odd.
And having played against certain people throughout my, uh, chess career who may or may not have showered as regularly as I would have deemed appropriate. Um, that would not be okay with me at all. And I love that she's not happy with it either. And she clearly makes quick work of him. I think the most relevant thing to note here was that she beats size more and she's clearly moving toward the top boards.
Right? Yeah. She's now she's, now you can kind of see Harry beltic, uh, from where she wins this gate. Right. And so I think that that's kind of like Sizemore was sort of an obnoxious sort of male. A stepping stone and his like, kind of self-absorbed hygiene, the middle of the board. Right. And her rolling her eyes.
I think it was just kind of a good, you know, we have a lot of these things that kind of set the tone of what set the tone of what a woman would go through in a very male dominated environment. You talked about, you know, she has her first, you know, menstrual cycle and, and gets help there from a friend, which neither one of us can talk about, but we understand it would be a, you know, unique experience there.
And she, the way that's dealt with, she gets back to the chest. Now she's like, Dealing with this guy, who's kind of like, I don't know. It just felt very like sleazy, right. What he's doing. Right. And like, and she's just like, this is gross. Right. And you can imagine maybe not that exact experience, but. Having, I have a lot of female friends in the chess world who have described experiences where you just feel like they'd felt that they were not appreciated as being the only woman in the room.
Right. And that was one of those moments where you just kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I think Shauna gave a little bit of a gag in the back of her mouth and we were watching it last night. So we're happy. We're happy. She took care of mr. Sizemore quickly. 
James: [01:13:42] She did. Yeah, no, funnily enough, I have it written down here.
These matches and even to beltic to some, some way the treatment here, it almost reminds me of a poker match where poker matches are trying to get on other people's nerves. Intentionally. They're trying to shake you up, but in chess it feels as super inappropriate. 
Danny: [01:14:00] Yeah, no, it it's. I don't know what it is about.
The more one-on-one nature. I think some people argue that it's like not fun or cool in poker, but it's, for some reason it's been more a part of the culture there. Right? You have people who haven't have like really unique attires or way to present themselves or their habits like around a poker table, but in chess, it's just.
You know, it's never been okay. That environment. I think young people learn very quickly. What's okay. And what's not okay. In terms of distracting to your opponent, because they're held to a quick standard. It's something that I. I learned very quickly as a young player. And you know, when the competitive side of you sticks in as a kid and you have unethical tendencies, partly because you're young and obnoxious, partly because you want to win.
Sometimes you're like willing to bounce around on your opponent's time. And then when people like tell you like, Hey man, that's not okay. That's not how we do things. And you don't do things like that on your opponents time or whatever, anything that will be distracting. I think that that's kind of a cool thing.
Kids learn. They mature. I mean, it's not. I'm not endorsing any behavior where like, it has been like out of bounds in terms of discipline. I say that as someone who maybe has had a few of those things, like in terms of like, it's not okay to like yell at kids or anything, but I think, I think people learn that like you're sitting across from another person in like, you know, a kind of an intimate environment.
It really is. And chest is like the most, like, one-on-one kind of like, you know, Uh, brain sport and there's like zero excuses. When things don't go your way, it's always on you. Right. And I think, I think that there's an intimacy to like when you play someone and when you beat them or when you lose or whatever, when you draw.
And I think, I think you ended up learning behaviors that would be distracting and unethical to someone in ways that you wouldn't always appreciate in a group setting. 
James: [01:15:40] Yeah. And you're right. I mean, when you're on a chessboard, you know, over the board, you're very close, you know, you're, you're, you're not by the way.
Danny: [01:15:49] Although now we have glass things going down above the chess boards, people wearing mask and having hand sanitizer and having been checked. So over the board is slowly coming back right now, as we record this during the. The thing that none of us have ever experienced a pandemic in our lifetime. And I don't know where that goes or whether it should even be the case, but they are trying to do things just random side note to sort of bring it back.
But go ahead. 
James: [01:16:10] That is fascinating. Uh, well, before we get to the climax of this, um, belting V Harmon, there's a little shortcut that I'll take, which is she heads home because the, the. That the finishing, the final match is on the next day, the third day. Uh, I love that her, her mom, she said she, I wrote this down, um, because, uh, she needed, she wants more pills and she goes, my tranquility needs to be refurbished.
Danny: [01:16:33] Yes. I just love that. 
James: [01:16:37] Oh, that's great. 
Danny: [01:16:37] That's a fancy way to say like, like, uh, and the dialogue is kind of interesting cause it's, it's definitely like movie. Dialogue, because it's kind of like a way to say, like mama needs her happy pills, you know? Um, and that's, that's sort of exactly what she says. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was interesting.
And obviously we learned right then that, that, uh, w we already knew because early in the episode, you and I, I guess you and I kind of jumped past that. We should definitely mention that the earlier part of this episode, when, when, um, You know, mom, isn't doing very well. And she sends her to the stores when she first gets re-introduced since her overdose at a very young age to the little green pills.
And we, we kind of skipped over that. I think, I think we have to mention that, or, or our fans will yell at us in the comments section because that is an overarching storyline throughout the entire show is Beth's, you know, addiction and hopeful overcoming with no spoilers to, you know, substance abuse. And I think that.
I think that we have to mention that, right? Because remember she takes the green pills in this early episode starts playing chess on her head again. And that all happens before she goes to this first chess tournament that we've been talking about. 
James: [01:17:43] Yeah, no, I think you're, I think you're right. It's a great point.
Um, to bring up and in fact, I have written down here, we actually see the bottle, funnily enough of it's called Zan Solum. Uh, this is not real and that's the medication you see them put down, uh, this tranquility medication. People say that it actually is. Maybe related to Librium, which would be similar in that error to treat anxiety and funnily enough, um, in a study of a hundred people, 16% or 16 people out of a hundred experienced excessive dreams.
Taking this medication. So there is some play on that medication, which we didn't touch on, but we're about to, because funnily enough, the drugs come into play in beltic V Harmon and eighth row back to episode one where, where she is the one late running down to start the match. But no, in this one, Harmon is there early with an E four, um, played and the clock ticking, which is also weird.
And I needed to ask you wouldn't beltic have needed to start her clock. For it to start, or is it because it's the finale that the start, the clock starts immediately at a specific time. I just feel like the order of operation here has changed in some regard, because beltic is not there, right? He is actually 10 minutes late to this match.
And yet Beth has already played her first move and the clock is ticking, which is counterintuitive to every other match that we've seen up until this point. 
Danny: [01:19:05] Yep. The, the reason she did though, is because she's white. So I, I'm not trying to challenge her. I'm trying to ask specifically what you're asking again.
So you're saying that the fact that we show up the fact that she's already moved and the clock is running is different than showing up, uh, where someone's caucus running, but it's their move, right? Or. 
James: [01:19:25] Well, like, I think when she plays, you know, when she plays the very first match against a net and that says, don't, you want to start my clock?
Or you have to start my clock because a net is white in this, in this round. So. But beltic would have started her clock, 
Danny: [01:19:41] but, but, but he wasn't there. So yes, actually. So what happened there is actually completely appropriate. If, if a round starts in, in a tournament and you're white, you literally make your own move as if your opponent started your clock and then blacks clock starts to run.
Got it. So what happened? And I, and I made note of that actually, when I was talking with Shauna did there that's exactly what it would be like. And beltic kind of showing up as black sort of late kind of says he needed more coffee. It's a little bit like. I don't know. I mean, a little bit, not, not quite like, not yet taking her seriously, but I don't think he quite gets what he's in for.
Um, and he's been sort of dominating the state of Kentucky here clearly for a while. Right. As a, as an almost 2200 player. And so I think that that's partly what it's suggestive of is he's like, he's like, alright, you know, it's a foregone conclusion. I'm going to be, you know, returning state champion. I show up as black, my clock is running.
I think there's like, I think they zoom in at one point, I remember like at least five, if not like 10 minutes is off the clock. Like he hasn't, he hasn't been there for a little while. And, um, but what, what they depict in regards to her having already moved and Blackhawk, that's actually a hundred percent correct.
James: [01:20:49] Gotcha. Yeah. And it was 10 minutes because not only was the time down, but when he shows up, they pan back and you can tell that the. The clock on the wall had been moved 10, 10 minutes over the hour. So it was 10 minutes specifically, that 
Danny: [01:21:04] was there. Okay. Yeah. And, um, 
James: [01:21:06] and just like, we see size more with the coming of the hair.
We see a recurring effect with, um, beltic with the yawning and the Ts and dude had just had like three cups of coffee that had to been absolutely disgusting. 
Danny: [01:21:21] Right. And I don't know why they did that besides I already know, like, Later on in the series belt, its teeth, come back again as like a, as a reoccurring theme.
So I'll say that, um, which is. Which is totally interesting. Um, and so I didn't notice it when I first watched the show, except other than like everyone else. Oh, we just had coffee and she's irritated with his behavior and all that stuff, but it actually comes back as like another theme later on in the, in the show.
So that's all I'm going to say about that. 
James: [01:21:52] Gotcha. Now this is a very fascinating opening. This is a Carl Khan defense opening from a beltic. This was also another hard one for me to follow. I got about nine moves in to this match, which is all we get to see. And I think I did a pretty fair representation.
Uh, this. Board layout is, is crazy. The moves that occur here. Um, can you walk through like, what is happening on this board and, and you can go below, you'll see the beltic V Harmon, um, uh, Chaz Explorer, uh, and you can walk through this with us. Can you walk us through this, Danny? 
Danny: [01:22:25] And we'll actually include, we'll include a link as well to the final position.
The final combination that Beth plays is a queen sacrifice for a forced and seven. We actually have that as so. James did an incredible job with the opening. A picture we'll break down. You could also click the link to see why it is that, uh, Harry, uh, the beltic resigned when Beth ultimately plays queen takes G six.
Um, okay, so this is Carol con. You did a great job with it. It's a two nights, two nights a attack for white with the move. Knight to C3. So the Cara con is this move C6. Now in a later episode, we're going to see a legendary line from Benny Watts. Who's a character yet to be introduced at this point. Um, although he was briefly, I think, shown on the cover of the magazine of chest review, if I'm not correct in this episode, So Benny Watts makes a comment about the Cara con, which has kind of become a bit of a chess beam in the chess community since the Queen's gambit came out.
So I'm going to save that for when it happens, but pretty funny to hear about how some of the chess professionals and all the streamers have been referring to Benny Watts and his opinion of the Carol Khan. So we'll come back to that, but the CARICOM has played and by the way, it is a very important chess thing that, that, and, and the kids, again, it's where chess is reflecting the characters in the show months, because.
The fact that belting would play the Carol con and what ends up happening with his character and his relationship with Beth versus how Benny feels about the Carol cone. And what happens with his character is, is pretty actually. Right on in terms of the storylines they develop in the shell. So again, I just, I know it's early and I don't want to, but it's just so good.
And again, if you're listening to this podcast and, and you agree or disagree with comments or, or definitely, I can't wait to hear what you guys think as we move on and talk about that because the Carol Conn played by deck. Pretty funny foreshadowing later on Bishop G4 is. Is a sharp line. So what's happening.
The Cara con is, is black, is playing kind of a passive game to try to attack the light squares. It's not the Sicilian. That's what we'll say. Sicilian would be pulling to C5, to squares, attacking the dark squares in the center and not, not as passive let's say as the Carolinas. Um, and what Beth does is a very aggressive line against the Carol con Knight of three.
And Knight C3 is, um, a very sharp way for white to approach the position. After Bishop G4 and H three, we get a position where white is actually already a little bit better out of the opening with the queen, taking the Bishop. And she gets a pretty good position where, what she has. If we go to the end of this line here on move 93, that lots less of, with less stuff with left us with, excuse me.
Um, This is setting the tone. The White's going to be a little bit better and she's kinda gotten her go out of the opening. The main thing I would draw your attention to as far as her personality on the board is the Bishop pear. She has the bishops on G2 and C one, meaning she has two bishops and black only has one on
In a, in a typical game, if you're an attacking player, you prefer the Bishop pear because eventually the game becomes open and the bishops can sort of flex specifically the light squares. Bishop can flex because black doesn't have one on all of those light squares. And so if the board eventually becomes open, why it would be better.
And given that this game ultimately ends with a checkmate by the light square Bishop. After the queen sacrifice again, click the other link now. Um, and, uh, and follow along that combination with queen takes G six and how it ends with Bishop of five checkmate. Again, I, I don't even know how to say this enough, regardless of any mistakes, any critiques, we're going to give this show throughout all of our podcasts, James, the fact that they do stuff like that is.
Phenomenal. And maybe I'm reading into it too much, but I don't think so. They've had too many wins and not enough misses for us to like, highlight that the way they set up this game and the way it ends with the lights were Bishop being the dominant piece. I just I'm in love. I'm in love with it. 
James: [01:26:14] No, I thought it was, I thought it was quite excellent.
Uh, just the play here and there's a, there's a, there's a point in time where she leaves the game. Which I also wanted to ask you about, right? So we get to this point and they fast forward and she's thinking about, and again, we're kind of entering the end game here because they skipped so far ahead, but she leaves the table.
She goes into the bathroom and then she takes some pills. Right. Which is then she comes back and she's super focused. I can't imagine that that's allowed. Nowadays, right. Or is it there's like, is everything quarantined in a way where like people's obviously phones and things like this? Are they like, they escorted around?
I mean, I know that they're just playing in a high school, but realistically it feels very odd that she's able to, I mean, I know, I understand people gotta use the bathroom, but like, you know, they RA she kind of runs away in a weird way. 
Danny: [01:27:01] So it actually, it actually is. It actually is. Okay. Now what it is is.
Okay. Well, well, we, we, I can literally talk about this for a very long time, because now with like cheating restrictions and like phones and purses, it's very possible that going to the bathroom and the way she did would be closely monitored and that she wouldn't have access to what she had access to.
Like, let's say the pills in her purse. Right. Um, if that's very possible, because there are more and more restrictions all the time to, to try to limit devices that people and anything people can access. Right. But the way this happened in this era is now only a hundred percent accurate, but even as far as like even just 10 years ago, like there were very few restrictions on players as far as when you can get up and walk around, especially at a tournament like this, like a local state championship, which is.
Procedures to people in Kentucky, but no one else gives a bleep about right. Like there would not be somebody monitoring that. And in fact, one of the things that I think a lot of people have a big illusion about chess tournament is that once we sit down as chess players, that we don't get up for all six hours, like there's actually a lot of milling about people play the opening, they get up and go get water.
They say hi to a friend. They come back and sit down, they get up and go look at the top games. And sometimes you do it. As a player who thinks you're going to win the tournament. And because you want to have an idea of what people are playing and you're already thinking ahead, right. It's sort of a marathon, not just a sprint of the guy you're playing.
Right. So I think sometimes people think of like a chest for a minute because of how it's portrayed is like, Oh, we sit down and can you believe they play for six hours straight and nothing else? Like, there's actually a lot of elite events. There's like a refreshment room. Right? You have like a private bathroom that all the players would share.
You don't have to share the public room that the observers are using. Like there's, there's. A lot of support for players to be the best athletes they can be while they're doing something very grueling, which is a six to maybe eight hour chess game. So, so the whole process of creating an environment where people are free to play and get up and walk around and visit the bathroom pretty much at will.
That's not unrealistic even nowadays with the exception being that. Nowadays at the top events in any event with real prize money would have a lot of restrictions in terms of what bathroom will the players allowed to use? Um, like all of their devices would have had to have been checked at the door, no cell phones and possibly even no bags or anything that could kind of conceal anything.
So, so actually that whole scene is, is not unrealistic at all. Um, and other than kind of the caveat I said about where we've come in terms of like cheat detection, 
James: [01:29:32] Gotcha. That makes sense. That's fascinating. I mean, I just imagine, like, as things are played and as things progress, right, you kind of tighten it down.
Um, now the link that you have here is, is it true that this game that they're showing is actually a real game in real life? 
Danny: [01:29:47] So the I'm pulling it up right now. Um, 
James: [01:29:52] the Nez Nismo dyno, uh, campus 
Danny: [01:29:55] safety. 
James: [01:29:56] So thank you 
Danny: [01:29:57] as Medina versus Kasparian Nisbett Gino is a famous player. I've referenced him all the time because Nisbett Dean off is famous for a phrase.
Only a fool would analyze blitz and I analyze blitz for a living. So, uh, Nesmith Dino is a, a grand master from this era, um, who actually. Uh, became a famous trainer and he was very strong, a very famous attacking player. Uh, but again, the famous phrase is that back then you didn't play fast time. Controls, speed, chess wasn't as popular as it is now.
It was sort of growing in popularity. And this Medina was kind of like an old school kind of guy. It's like. It's like an old school guy saying like, you believe they played basketball with a shot clock now. Well, rubber, rubber, rubber, right? How could you play with a shot clock? You don't have time to pass the ball a hundred times before you shoot.
So sorry. Nesbit Dean off. Don't roll over in the grave and come after me. But again, his view was longtime controls. Several hours. And then in a German with multiple days to play a single game was the only way to play chess. And that only a fool would try to analyze and learn something from a fast chess game, but you're talking to that fool.
So anyway, um, so yes, it is a hundred percent a game. Again, I already referenced the, the beauty of, of how it ends with the light square Bishop, um, what we, what we saw in the opening and that it's a famous game. And, uh, and yeah, the final combination is really something special where. Where Beth sacrifices a queen.
And we do have the link to that whole last series of moves. 
James: [01:31:20] Fascinating because if it's a real game, you know, you kind of are like, well, these players are, you know, grand grandmasters or I AM's are international masters at this point. And they're saying, they're kind of at this point that then obviously this game took place in 1955.
So it took place a lot earlier than it did here. But, uh, it's a nice nod, I guess, I guess, to some of the amazing players and amazing matches of the 
Danny: [01:31:41] time. Yep. Yeah. And, and like we said, most, and again, I haven't found a place where I'm wrong about this yet. I believe the games, they referenced follow a chronological timeline in terms of when they were played in chess history.
And I can't wait for an astute observer to call me out on that. And the later podcast we do and, but I've. I haven't seen a thing where I'm wrong about that yet at the beginning, they're showing famous Greco games and then ready target cower. We talked about the beginning of the video. So for her to kind of help bring this episode to a close with this crushing victory Nez Medina queen sacrifice is a pretty awesome.
And again, falls the timeline 1955, um, being later than like, let's say the ready target cower game, we referenced already from episode one. Nice. 
James: [01:32:23] Yeah, it's a beat. It's a beautiful victory. And, um, it really cements, you know, in, in, I think in her mind that this, this is it, this is what she's doing. I love. And she goes home and she tells her mom that she won right mrs.
Wheelie. And she goes, people make money playing chess. Did you know? I can't, I can't believe this. Um, it doesn't, you know, my, I remember I used to, you know, I went to school to make video games and people like, do they pay people to play videos? 
Danny: [01:32:49] Oh my God. Now people pay to watch other people play video games, 
James: [01:32:54] but that doesn't make any sense.
It's really fascinating, right? Yeah. It's crazy. 
Danny: [01:32:58] No. I mean, that's where we're at now with the world of e-sports and chess as, as we grow on Twitch and, and are kind of an evolving e-sport right. I mean, it's, it's just fascinating because the, the evolution of things, and we're going to sound like old fuddy duddies, I already do on a regular basis with my kids.
And I'm like, why would you sit there and watch somebody else play a video game? And they're like, dad, Like literally, do you get this? People watch your videos. Why do people watch? She plays chess? I'm like, honestly, bro, I have no idea why people watch me play chess, but somehow they do so, so he's right.
I'm wrong. I think, I think there's something fascinating about watching people do something that you appreciate personally, because you love it. Right? Whether it's a video game or chess, they're good at it. Right. And so they're doing something kind of better than you can do at something you care about.
So that's two points of interest and then if their personality is interesting, they're doing all those things while also kind of engaging you. I think I obviously there's something fascinating about it or we wouldn't be here. Right. And I think, um, I think. Yeah. So chess is 
James: [01:34:00] it's true. True. Yeah. I love it.
I love it because you can see mrs. Wheatley starting to get into it. Um, Beth goes out, she gets her chest out. That's right. She also gets a new dress. I love it. Uh, and she picks up a new copy of MCO, modern chess openings, ninth edition, which actually came out in 1957, which would be the correct version for her to get because the 10th edition did not come out until 1965.
Danny: [01:34:27] And we know that's true or Motz would have called it out. Yeah, no, I mean, you nailed it. And yeah, the moms, the moms like shock about people winning money at just is not. It's not totally unrealistic to like a lot of like, you know, beginning experiences, but I just made my whole rant and tangent about people paying to watch other people play games.
But yeah, no, that's, it's a thing where like, you start to get surprised that there's money in something that you think, Oh, this was only just a hobby people play for. And, and then, you know where he goes from here now. Right. Beth has her new dress hazard, new MCO, and now it's a it's game on because mama bear.
Has some dollar signs in her eyes. Right. And so one thing Shauna asked, I want to get your translation of this at the end of the episode is, is the mom so motivated because um, mr. Wheatley has cut them off. Or is it just that it's like something to do? Like, I don't know if it's totally relevant. 
James: [01:35:19] No, it's two twofold.
Twofold. It's twofold. There's two fold to this because there's a point in time where Beth comes home and they have a moment. Right. Which is mr. Wheatley has, is now basically stuck in  in between Butte and Denver. That is where he is at in Colorado. And he's not coming home basically forever. And Beth asks, you know, does that mean I have to go back.
And, and they come to an agreement that, Hey, I won't tell type of agreement. You know what I mean? And, and, you know, she had started mentoring, as you said. And she was like, I don't know how to use these things. I don't know how to use pads. I don't know how to do this stuff. And, and mrs. Wheatley comes over and she's like, I believe that while I may not be, you know, a wife, you know, anymore.
Cause he's kind of like left her right at this point that she's like, I believe that I can be a good mother. And I think at this point she. Now is in somehow realizing that the way to become a good mother and support bath is through what Beth is obviously super passionate about, uh, wants to do for a living on the, on the kind of upside for her is that Beth is going to make money and support her in a weird way.
Right. So she I'm here. Yeah. I'm here. But no, I think overall it's sort of this, this play where for her to be a good mother, she has to support Beth and for Beth to be a great daughter to, to going to have to support her back in a two way. I think that as we see in future episodes, it sort of swings the pendulum a bit, but she's at least excited about something for something.
And a long time she finds the Cincinnati match. And, uh, I love at the very end and Beth is just like, I'll win. Don't worry. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm going to win. 
Danny: [01:37:03] Don't don't worry in best confidence, reign Supreme. Um, yeah. Well you said it well, and now we've got a lot of seeds planted, right?
Beth is back in the saddle as a chess player, no longer being punished. Right. And, uh, she's got her, her now a mom and a supporting manager, which obviously the attachment, as you said, we know what Beth went through already with her mother as far as losing her mother. So you could imagine a character wanting.
And being willing to look past the faults of any character who was just going to be supportive of them. Right. I agree. I agree. And I think that that's. That's a good thing and not a bad thing. And, you know, but it, you know, definitely plays into where the relationship goes and all kinds of stuff. So I love it.
I love it. I have to stop talking now because I'll start talking about episode three. 
James: [01:37:46] Anything else on here on the, the sort of title of this thing exchanges. Now, I think that there's some exchanges in, in, um, the relationship that we just talked about, right? Give and take going on there. And the key chess, motivation.
We obviously openings make sense. Cause you're learning opening exchanges here. What are the exchanges that they're talking about that we saw on the board? 
Danny: [01:38:07] So I, I, I think a lot of that was like her getting into like the chess world. Like she gets the, you know, the exchange between her and, um, Sorry, the young girl that she plays in the first game.
Um, I don't want to waste time on the podcast trying to remember the name, but, um, so like the exchange of we're kind of teaching her how to do stuff, right? The exchanges between her and, and, and towns, basically like one of the things I noticed, and this was in my note was I thought exchange was a reference to the dialogue.
And in some cases, the dialogue wasn't always super realistic. As far as the chess goes, I was critical of it, but it was sort of necessary in regards to like, developing like. Some of the early seeds of these relationships with Harry belt deck and with towns. Um, and even with the young lady who, I can't remember her name and I feel bad, but I can, you know, spend to use a net packer may also may not be out of the show.
Um, and so, yeah, I think that some of the exchanges were just about the relationships, basically a hundred percent like the dialogue between the chess players, um, the exchanges that take place between her and even the guys that welcome her to the tournament. Right. Those, those. Those young organizers who will be seen from again.
Right. And then I think ultimately the exchanges, as you said, you know, but for her mom, I mean, as far as the chess goes, we saw lots of exchanges on the board. Right. But I was focused on like, the exchanges was about kind of the dialogue and kind of the relationship she's developing with these different chess people.
James: [01:39:26] I think you also have the exchanging of money, right? You have exchanging of the money to, to get things that you want. And she is able to get money to exchange for things that she needs in our life. Yup. 
Danny: [01:39:37] Well said amen. As they would say, can I get a hallelujah? Hallelujah. Yeah, man. It's awesome. I cannot wait for episode three.
I'm glad that, uh, that a few people check this thing out. They should, you know, keep checking it out and, uh, I hope to God, you didn't just listen to the whole episode too. And so I have to say, now go watch episode one, but you could have already done that. So make sure you stick around for the next episode.
James: [01:39:59] That is correct. Go to blenders, RFM, subscribe on your podcast application. If you have one person that you know, that's watched the, um, the Queen's gambit share this podcast with them. If you liked this podcast, the best way to support us is to share it. If you want to go an extra mile, you can leave us a review on your favorite podcast app, but we love feedback.
Let us know. We of course read them like we did earlier. Go to blunders, RFM, all the contact information is there. You can even leave a comment on the episode specifically. Well, that's going to do it for this. Episode of coffee house blunders, Danny. Thank you so much for your amazing 
Danny: [01:40:32] knowledge. Thank you, sir.
And, uh, can't wait for next week. Peace.