s2e5
James: [00:00:00] And we are back eating some food, getting out our forks. It is coffee houses, blunders. Oh my good Danny. We're here to break down fork forks. How many forks? Forking fork, avid tree in the backyard. That's forked, but I don't think that's what they're talking about. Danny. 
Danny: [00:00:27] You know, you mentioned forks for eating there's forks in the road, and then there's the fork that not many people knew about until the Queens gambit, which is a double attack of two pieces on the board with one piece that is a fork.
In chess. And it's the name of episode five. 
James: [00:00:42] What's that one move where like the pond does like a little dance and it like rounds the corner and then you're like, that's not a real 
Danny: [00:00:47] move, but it is. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's funny. I, there were no episodes named on Basant, which is. At least I don't think so. I don't remember.
It was what episode? Six and seven are we going to get there, but, uh, yeah, emphasis on his French for in passing. And I think I've shared, I shared in our previous blunders podcasts that we have gotten some of the most hilarious, the most hilarious support messages of all time. Like people just like screaming, people saying like his pawn moved like a Ninja.
And if you're going to allow that kind of illegal stuff, I'm not going to play on your site. Just crazy stuff. But yeah. Google is Google yourself some on facade listeners. If you don't know what the rule is, so that you don't make that mistake of thinking that the pawn made a magic move. 
I'll 
James: [00:01:30] put it. I'll definitely put a link to our previous podcast, or we did talk about this heavily and also to the justice com article.
And that's right. If you're brand new to the podcast, we'll welcome. You should totally go back to the very first episode of season two, because we are breaking down the Queens gambit episode by episode with no spoilers going forward because I haven't watched them going forward. So Danny is doing a great job of not.
Spoiling anything. And if you're brand new, well, you're in for a treat because I'm James Watson Magno. I work for a software company called Microsoft by day. I am a manager of people doing awesome things. And by night I'm a chess, officiant, aficionados, trying to be at least, and at the same time and that man, 
Danny: [00:02:09] I mean, I'm going to ride that joke until it's way overplayed.
So yeah, yeah, 
James: [00:02:13] yeah, yeah. My best friend in the entire world right here, Danny Daniel wrench, um, who is a. International master and the chief chess officer or chief content officer@chess.com. This podcast sponsored by chess.com. It's a website where you can play chess. 
Danny: [00:02:30] Hey, you just nailed it. I love what you do the thing to intro the episode.
All right. No, but this is, I'm excited about this one. I mean, I know. And not, not just because of the hangover, that was episode four, right? It was, it gave us a lot to write home about and to be sad about. And again, no spoilers in about future episodes. That's what James just promised you. But remember, we are allowed to talk about every episode up until now.
So episode four really left us with a heavy heart and I feel like episode five, you know, kind of, it brings the rebound back into some chess. We get some old characters coming back. We get some interesting stuff. 
James: [00:03:05] Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with you. I really enjoyed this episode. I have a lot less notes because I think I just spent less time focusing on the chest and focusing in on the story a little bit, because we do get.
Um, quite a few years, five years since, um, kind of like the opening here and we're sort of coming up to the end of the years that are about to pass in this, in this franchise for season one. But I think that the opening is really iconic here where her mom, I'm pretty sure it's her mom. I'm going to say it's her mom is sitting there talking to her, kind of like laying down on a bed, not Mrs.
Wheatley, but her mom, mom, best mom. And she says, you know, Birth mother. She goes, you know, she says other people, um, you know, you need not worry about needing to worry about yourself. She said, someday, you will be all alone. You'll need to take care of yourself. And that is very iconic for her mom to have said that to her growing up.
And then Beth is literally there right now. 
Danny: [00:04:08] Right. You know, and like you said, it's, it's a, it's like chronic it's it's, uh, it's prophetic. Unfortunately, it's also, it's also kind of sad, right? Just cause like the message and the message that your mother is delivering to you as a child is, Hey, you can't, it's kind of like all the tones that go with it.
You can't trust anybody. You can't count on anybody. You're going to be all alone. You're going to have to do it, you know, and in all the ways that matter by yourself and. You know, as, as those who are with us on this podcast journey, we know that now, uh, Mrs. Wheatley has moved on. She has, she has died. And so Beth is quite literally all alone and it, and it starts with the scene.
Right. She's rolling up to her now, the house that she now owns, apparently according to Mr. Wheatley, um, and, uh, she's walking into it for the first time as a, uh, As a solo home, home homesteader, not, not homesteader, that's the wrong term, but she's just solo, solo home alone. But this is not a good, this is not a good Kevin McCallister home alone story.
Right? This is like a, this is, although it was home alone. A good story. Or was that a set? I don't remember. It was home alone. A good thing. How sad would it be if all your family just left you on Christmas and forgot you? Well, 
James: [00:05:14] I don't know. It'd be, I mean, I would be pretty sad. I mean, I think as a kid was it's different, right?
You're like a 19 year old versus like this like seven or eight year old. I mean, obviously McCauley Colgan had like a great time, but then it became really scary really quick. Whereas at least when you're 19, like, you know, she has a job, right. She, she can call people on the phone, take care of some stuff and she's got some contacts at least like, I don't know if I was seven year old in, in the Midwest.
Right. It's snowing. There's old creepy people. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing. 
Danny: [00:05:48] Yeah, they definitely romanticize the whole, I mean, wow. We are digressing here, but I love it. Home alone is not a tale of positivity for Kevin McCallister. Let, let the record state anyway. So sorry, go ahead. You, you drive, you drive the ship.
I'm just here to be the, uh, the chess guy. So we're where are we going? First as we break down this episode. I think 
James: [00:06:06] we have to go with that phone call, Mr. Harry beltic, um, gives a little ring ring on the phone. He's uh, he's given her a call in the rain. I love that he's in a telephone booth. Uh, Beth picks up and I love this.
Actually. He gives condolences on the loss, um, that she just had. Uh, to Bergoff, 
Danny: [00:06:26] not actually to determine 
James: [00:06:28] now later. Um, I think, and then, you know, I love the con the, the, the back and forth here, and I wanted to ask you about it because, you know, he gives condolences and he asks, you know, what did you start as?
And she said, I was black. And he goes, yeah, you know, better to lose as black than as white, you know? Um, and. I know what is sort of the, you know, she had obviously crushed him previously and 
Danny: [00:06:52] what is sort of yeah, 
James: [00:06:54] there's beltic here. Is this a normal type of exchange that you think that chess players, because we sort of see exchanges here later on too, of chess players.
Being like, Oh, I'm so sorry about that loss. That must have been terrible. Right? Or like that was the crushing. Is that common practice? 
Danny: [00:07:10] So yeah, I had notes about this phone call to the first notes. I just want to make real quick because I said them in the last episode, that for some reason that, you know, they, they nail so much perfectly about the chest and these in this whole series and every episode, for some reason, both the, uh, the, the, the Spanish speaking announcer and then Harry, beltic kind of the way they described the opening.
It's just interesting to me because. They make it sound like she played the Ross Alaimo and that was a mistake. When an act, when in actuality Borga played the Russell email. And again, Beth's description of the game when she's talking to her, uh, unbeknownst to her deceased mother in the bed where she says like, Hey, he surprised me with the sideline.
Like, that's actually a better description again, from the end of episode four, this was just weird. How they break that down where like, she was just playing her game, the Sicilian, and he played the Rasul emo and she didn't know what to do, even though. Belting makes it sound like, well, that was a mistake to play the Ross and Lemo again, the same conversation took place on the, on the payphone.
I just had to note that because it's not, it's not the exact way the chess brain knows what went down. So, all right. Sorry. Got to get that. Get off my chest. Um, now about the loss, like, so it's really this whole episode, right? And obviously the whole episode in so many ways, I think is not just about.
Beth's relationship with, with beltic, but also kind of what he represents in terms of how Beth is both kind of sought after, by a lot of like the men in the chess world, but also how she relates to a lot of them, really not from a relationship standpoint first, but as like competitors in like, and kind of peers first and we'll get into all that.
So like the fact that she instantly starts like taking this guy into this like comradery role and just debating the chess. It was just, it kind of sets up the whole tone of the episode. And I wouldn't say it's that normal that you would, that someone would go out of your way to just say, Hey, I saw that last, yo, that was a bummer.
Um, but you know, I don't know. I mean, this is a, this is a world of chess girls and we are just girls living in it. Right. I mean, it's, that's kind of the whole dialogue of the entire show and all of these relationships between these characters. Are based around the guy, they met each other and often competed at chess tournaments.
So I think it's the most comfortable way to like start a dialogue with someone. So I, I made the same note. I was thinking, yeah, maybe it's not that abnormal. I will say they definitely nail it in that one thing, a chess player would say to another as consultant with like, Hey, like you lost this black that's all right.
It's not a true showing of 'cause. It's, it's kinda like. Winning with white at the high levels is kind of like holding serve in tennis, right? Like they're kind of supposed to. And so, um, even if it's not totally true, It, it gives you like a little bit of a story. You can tell yourself, like, Hey, last with black.
I haven't had the opportunity for the first move yet where I get to set the tone with my opening preparation and the style of the game that I want is white. And so that, that part of it is like the proper condolences that appear trying to encourage you would say is like, Hey, you've lost with black.
That's not that big of a deal better to is that way that with white, you'll get them next time. That that was definitely like authentic dialogue. 
James: [00:10:12] Okay, that's good. Yeah. And we talked about that last podcast, actually, when we were talking about, um, Mike and Matt talking about the computers and white will always win and all these, these things and how, you know, what the advantage is there as well.
So it is very fascinating to me. I, I, I like this exchange and this exchange really led to a rekindling of, of a hairy belt because the last time we saw, uh, Harry beltic, uh, Beth was. Wasn't frazzled. She had, she beat him. I think that she was agitated with him. I think that's the word I'm going to use is agitated because he's sort of an agitating guy and, um, you know, he says he's moving back home and.
You know, sh she basically invites him over because he offers up, I love this exchange too. He offers up to help her. And then he goes, I know that you're a better player than me, but I still think I can teach you a few things. Right. I thought that was pretty cute because he's correct. Like, I mean, one, she already beat him and clearly Beth Harmon is amazing.
Danny: [00:11:16] Right. No. And, and also that she invites that, but, but I think that with the way they, they foreshadowed the mother kind of the, you know, the flashback to the mob in the beginning. And now here she is. You know, I think there's, it was two fold, right? One, it was like, you know, helping us understand this character, Beth Harman, even better in terms of the subconscious kind of, you know, difficulty.
She has that, you know, her fears of always being alone and fears of maybe becoming her mother. And I think that's partly why she jumps on this basically invites this guy who she hasn't seen in years, you know, over to her house in the middle of the night. Right. Like she would rather, she would rather do that than spend five minutes alone in her deceased kind of mother's house.
Right. I think that, so I think that the writing of the episode was really, you know, on point in that, like, it kind of shows you, again, here's even more we're peeling back this onion, right? Every layer of the onion makes you cry when it comes to Beth Harman's life. And it kind of reminds you a little more of what's at her core.
And then she'll she, that she's doesn't want to be alone. She's going to invite this guy over, who she hasn't seen in the middle of the night. And. And I think she almost didn't care whether he had anything to teach her at that point or not. Because as we see from the rest of the episode, okay. You know, we'll get into it.
Right. But I think, I think there's, I think that that was like, she wanted to spend time with anybody and he was kind of just the right guy who clearly had been waiting for her to come back to Kentucky, given that he called her pretty much the moment she arrived. Yeah. 
James: [00:12:35] Yeah. And he was ready with his, a flaming hot car.
Yeah, 
Danny: [00:12:39] he pulls up in a flaming hot car. 
James: [00:12:41] It was a, that barely runs. It is amazing. Like who is this guy with his car? It was great. Um, now there's, there's quite a lot to be said here. I think the one thing that stood out to me in sort of the entirety of their exchanges is this concept of study versus analyze.
Cause you know, I think they exchanged between Harry beltic and her. This is whatever I'm not really sure. Enthralled by this part of the, the episode. I think the one thing that is the takeaway from Harry beltic, at least from what I can see is that he says, you know, some people study and some people analyze and she studies while he analyzed, he says, you know, I don't understand why, or she says, I don't understand why people would play back the games over and over again, which he's done in the past when Benny has called her out.
Right. But. She mostly studies and she reads and she reads and she reads, but she's not analyzing the games in a way. So there's this exchange where I think more than anything, he's bringing this aspect that there's really two sides of chess. There is the studying, but there is the analyzing and you can learn a lot from both.
And I think that was probably the most impactful. Part, because he said, listen, you need to study, but you also need to analyze your opponent. You need to analyze Borga. Right. He gives her his book and he says, you know, look at the Leningrad, 1962, the lutsenko and the spa ski matches. I think those are real people, right?
Danny: [00:14:07] Pizza  for sure. The first one, I actually, I'm glad you said it again. I need to, I need to look it up. The first one I think was a, was a debatable one, but  for sure. In fact, a lot of people have said that, uh, bore GFEs characters sort of loosely based on Spassky, um, given, given the way they describe his style and Spassky was the enemy of Fisher that Fisher ultimately defeated in 72.
So yeah, 100%. And again, they do a great job. I, I didn't even check into lutsenko because I, once I heard the name spotty, I'm just kind of capping it too. They do a great job of mixing factoring fiction, admits these, you know, this very accurate timeline and kind of depiction of chess. 
James: [00:14:45] Yeah. Did you find anything in, in this?
I mean, we didn't get to the kiss yet, but I mean the whole exchange I'm looking here, I kind of, I kind of have a, not very many notes. It was kind of the interaction. Okay. This is gonna sound bad. The interactions and the sort of the first part of. Of Harry beltic in this episode, we're almost as throwaway as Harry.
Beltic like, that's about as much Harry Baltic that I want in my life, which is not 
Danny: [00:15:12] well. Okay. So, I mean, we can jump ahead to the, to the, but I think so what's interesting about all these analysis scenes, right? Let's back up. Cause by the way, I, I very little to add on what you said. I thought you did a really good job as the, as the non, the non chess pro among the two of us.
You did a great job describing kind of what. What Harry built, like the point is that he's trying to make, right? Like the guy who showed up with like a point he was trying to make right. To Beth about chess and, and you did a great job describing there's, there's this process of like studying things like on an abstract level.
And that's what Beth kind of wants to do and, and sort of. One of the things that they consistently go back and forth on. And the dialogue is like the references to these great players. Like they, they say Jr. Cup of Blanca, who of course has Jose Rowe, a cup of Blanca who we've seen mentioned in several episodes.
Right. And the reason why he's such a great reference for Beth and, and the style that she has is because best known as this sort of intuitive. Player that relies on just sort of her natural talent. And, and we saw her, her mom, Mrs. Wheatley. Talk about that. In the previous episode, we've kind of seen this from the beginning that sometimes she needs to slow down and get concrete and kind of analyze stuff rather than rely on her attacking and sort of intuitive intuition.
Um, later on in this episode, we see Benny Watson references. She attacks like Alex coin, which of course that's the American pronunciation of  just for the record. So, um, so yes, these guys like Al , who was the world champion, um, right after a cup of blank. And for the record and cup of Blanca is like an homage to these guys that were.
More intuitive in nature, more like super talents, right. Than like the Russian method of like, yo, we're going to get concrete and analyze the bleep out of this and get so technical. We leave no room for error, right? Like the stone cold killer mentality. And so there's this like, there's this sort of struggle in, in, in here.
And Harry, beltic trying to get Beth to embrace this other part of chefs that is very technical. Like all the books he's recommending for her to read are like, Are like the Rook end games book, right. And, and analyzing board gobs games to find weaknesses. And it's a hundred, you nailed it. A hundred percent in terms of what they're trying to point out, I would say is both like the chess weakness in Beth and then like the character flaw or weakness where she just kind of wants to like.
Be intuitive and not really get super in touch on like a concrete level. And, um, you know, that might explain like the, you know, the, the substance abuse issues that character has and all this stuff, right. She kind of wants to be a little checked out a little bit all the time. Right. And Harry's like, Hey, you need to get super concrete.
And then in the beginning, before the end of their relationship, when we get to the kiss and what happens after. Harry's kind of right. Remember the first few times they're going over, he's referencing like, Botvinnik who again is like the, again it's Smith's law. These are the, like the Soviet chefs school fathers, and she kind of tries different ideas and he's like, yeah, try it.
Right. There's that one scene where she made them sandwiches and, and she recommends like this move rookie eight. And he was like, yeah, try the line. And then in the line, Harry gets to kind of up on her one upper and say, see that that's why it doesn't work. Right. And. And that's kind of his point is trying to get her to be a little deeper and more concrete in addition to the fact that he just clearly is in love with her and we'll get to that now with the kids.
So, but I just kind of wanted to say that, cause I think you did a great job. And I think that I wanted to say that in the beginning, I think they set it up that Harry is actually right about her. Like Harry's Harry kind of has a point and he's, and he's, uh, the chest is sort of reflecting that he's kind of getting, he's getting little shots in here and there, despite how talented she is.
Um, You know, there's the scene where she beats him five times in a row and he's like, yeah, but, but what's your plan. Like you're just relying on this intuitive stuff to beat me. Like, where's your concrete plan. And anyway, so those were the notes I made about the episode is that I think they wanted to make a really good point about what her weaknesses were, but then as she kind of integrates this and, and then eventually they get to this kiss, she kind of gets done with him as quickly as she embraced him a little bit.
James: [00:19:07] It's true. No, I think you make a good point there of all the. Individuals that he was pointing out and he called out a lot of names. He was trying to set an example, like you were saying about, um, the different moves that, that, that could surprise her. I think also he was trying to attempt that there are a lot of different people and a lot of different play styles.
Like he talks about Philander who does like blind chess. Um, he makes. It makes, uh, he's about to make tons of references to Morphe and I do want to talk about 
Danny: [00:19:35] filthy a lot. 
James: [00:19:36] Um, Philodoria yeah. Philodoria talks about blind, blind chess, which, you know, kind of oddly bites are a little bit later in bullet, which to me is, is similar.
It's it's, it's taking chess in a different way and, you know, It's good because every single time in which she is challenged, she doesn't like to admit that challenge, but then she learns from it. Right. She doesn't, it's not going to admit to, um, Benny when he tells her about the move, you know, he's, she's going to go off and do it and he's going to, you know, figure it out on her own and then come back and do, do the, do the thing.
So I think it's good interaction. I. Um, I'm ready now. I'm ready now, by the way. 
Danny: [00:20:19] Um, you're you're ready to talk about the kiss. 
James: [00:20:21] Yeah. Now or never. 
Danny: [00:20:22] That was nice. That was a nice little reference there. Yeah. So what happens is you say what happened? So they're sitting there talking over the chess board, he's going to move to an apartment and come less.
So instead she says, well, why don't you move here? Yeah. 
James: [00:20:34] And seeing in beltic, who obviously has been oogling over her. Nonchalantly this entire time leans in for an awkward kiss. Like everyone's first awkward kiss. It was adorable. And Beth. It's like, like, okay. And then yeah, she says, you know, she was like, wow, there's no, whatever.
I wasn't ready. She's like, it's fine. You know, whatever. And she goes, now I'm ready now or never. And then he goes in and then they, they have some sacks. And then my favorite part is he's like, he's like, do you want me to stay? Or do you want me to go? And he's like, yeah, It's like, whatever. 
Danny: [00:21:04] It's so funny.
Yeah. So yeah, about, first about the kiss, I think that the, the initial reaction to the kiss kind of tells you how she really feels about him. Like right then, right? Yeah. Like obviously. And maybe she didn't even know herself, but you know, it's like, you know, like it's very where you quickly move past the honeymoon stage of thinking.
This might be a good thing to like instantly realizing in a kiss like, Oh, I don't want to be with this person. Right. I think a lot of people have had that experience or can relate to that. Right. But she, whether it's out or feeling bad for, for beltic or out, or being lonely herself, For whatever reason she kind of says like, no, I just wasn't ready.
Right. Even though I think that at least I think the directors and the writing does such a good job again, they're constantly making us kind of read what's being said without it being said. Right. I think, I think, you know, instantly that she's not into him. Right? Yeah. But. But, but, you know, but she says, now I'm ready.
Like you said, they go in, they have some sex. And then it's like instantly afterwards she's immediately like done with him. She'd lights up a cigarette and opens the chest book, like the volt when it's done. And, um, and he just kind of doesn't even know what to do with himself laying in bed. And yeah, it's 
James: [00:22:15] a great scene.
It's a really great scene because it's so telling of. Her her the relationship, they have his sort of, not that he's meaningless in her eyes, but there's no real connection there. Like it was. It was, uh, it was a usage in a way. Um, and the relationships kind of a usage. Right. And, and I think she wants to learn something he's interested in teaching her.
They both have some sexual needs, uh, Harry, maybe more than her, but she's like, she's also alone. Right. So she wants some, some connections there. And, um, he does do cause he's alone too. Technically when you think about it and, um, yeah, it's fascinating. 
Danny: [00:22:53] Even though we can kind of see the writing on the wall, right.
Then like, then they cement it, like in the next chess scene. And again, this is if you've there's no, we obviously don't have to say this for our listeners. Cause if you're five episodes deep with us and uh, you know, you haven't seen the show yet, then I, I don't even know what to say, but, so we're all saying we're all on the same page here, right?
That the writing is just such a good job of like, I think they're developing the characters both on and off the chessboard. And then the moment we go back to the next scene, With Harry and, and Beth there on the porch and she kind of sacrifices something and, and he's gonna kind of lecture her like, no, again, you're, you're playing, like, I'll say cup of Blanco or, or a Yohan or towel.
Like that's not how you play. And she's like, no, no, no, dude, I've gone way beyond you here. Right. Which is. Which is true. And, and now she's kind of lost even her sort of pillow talk or, you know, the way, the way she would deliver it in a way that is softer. She just doesn't even care anymore. Right. And that's not necessarily because they've had sex or not, but it's just like, the relationship has kind of run its course.
And, and so not only does she like. Kind of prove him wrong within sort of in a demeaning fashion is like, well, I wish you were. I wish you could see it. Right. And, and that kind of is like the nail in the coffin for, for Harry both in, in the good and the bad, I think for what he came there to learn. He's kinda like, all right, now I realize what I am to this person.
I, I'm not here to ever have anything in a longterm relationship. Neither, neither are both like in a relationship or on the chess board with Beth. Right. 
James: [00:24:21] Oh, I agree. Yeah. And you know, and when they're sitting there playing chess, And she beats him and she was just talking about the entire, she doesn't beat him, you know, she's, she basically talks it out and she's like, why can't you see this?
Right. Why it's so obvious what's about to happen. And he's like, I can't, I can't, I can't, I'm not as fast as you, right. I can't see it. And she's like, I wish you would write. I mean, um, and, and that, that he gets up and he kind of storms out and, and I want to, I'm going to go back to some scenes that were in between this, but if we stay focused on Harry, because.
Um, what happens here is he decides he's going to leave. He's going to move out. And this is where he sort of instills two pieces of knowledge. First, a little bit of where he's at with Chaz and also where he, where he believes she aligns with other similar chess player. So he, he starts to have tons of Morphe talk by the way.
There's tons of Morphe talk all of a sudden, and it brings it up at first and then. You know, when he leaves, he says, listen, you know, I've sort of fallen out of chess a little bit and you know, but she does. He's like, I don't have what you have. Right. He's obviously likes chess and things like that, but he doesn't have that drive.
So he's going to go back and he figured out what he wants to do in his life. Right. But then he leaves and. He gives her the Murphy's book. And he says you have a lot in common with them. And then people don't know Morphe, you know, he kind of says this guy's like, you know, was lost his mind. Right. He used to stay up in Paris, play all night.
He used to, you know, Go play these amazing, brilliant games. He's making a lot of connections, like flashback to episode one, right. Um, in the very beginning, but I want to talk about Morphe cause I don't know the life and time of Morphe and I feel like this is a great part to stop and for our international chess master Danny wrench to lay down some morphine knowledge, because we've talked about Morphe I think a tiny little 
Danny: [00:26:16] bit.
Yeah, but 
James: [00:26:17] why is it so important in this, in this moment? In this context of best life. 
Danny: [00:26:22] I think you, you hit the nail on the head and then I, and you made me realize we both forgot to talk about something a little bit earlier. Remember when Harry first moves in with her and then he goes into the bathroom, remember what he finds, right?
Yes. The pills he finds the pills and yeah. Even though I think we take, I feel like it, the reason I realized we forgot is because we've all been doing this now. And we realized from Harry beltings perspective members, a character, he didn't actually know that she was an addict probably until that moment.
Right. And so, and so I think that was a big deal because I think while. That happens early on in this episode, it helps us understand even more like it doesn't mean he wasn't still in love with her and they kept doing all this chest stuff. But I think in the back of his mind, as he continues to get to know her and he sees her behavior and he knows he found the drugs, all that stuff is playing into like, what is, is coming to where you are now, which is now, now he's leaving.
They've had sex. You know, they've had this sort of blow up moment of the board, you know, and she wakes up that morning. He's there with a briefcase instead of having breakfast, he's leaving. And like you said, he gives her this book and this whole Morphy conversation ensues. So, so here's my, you want my, so my international master, I'm not a pole officio natto in the sense of, I'm not, I'm not the world's leading expert, but I will say Paul Morphy is sort of iconic and legendary as far as chess talents go in, in the, in the, the, the myth rule, like kind of.
Like whatever the, the myth lore of the chess, uh, uh, of, of chess is that Paul Morphy is kind of considered the unofficial first world champion. Um, Paul Morphy was a French American who lived in new Orleans most his life. Uh, and as he became a super talent, he from a very wealthy family, which makes sense, because in the early 18 hundreds into the mid 18 hundreds, Jess was much more of a game for the, for the wealthy elite, right.
It wasn't like people were playing chess. Um, People people without means didn't play chess, right? Because it was a game for kind of like the high-minded intellectual kind of stuff. And so Morphe was from a very wealthy family, um, kind of always groomed to go into law. Like I believe his father was deaf or it was either father or uncle.
And as he became the super chess talent, he played in Europe and the most famous Paul Morphy game. Like literally, if you Google Paul Morphy opera game, there's this very legendary game, um, which has already been referenced in this, in this, um, In this show, I believe the opera game, I can even pull up our amazing, the amazing doc that my team did of all these different games.
Where was the first? Where was the opera game mentioned? Um, there's the Greco, the scholar's mate. Uh, where is the opera game? I'll have to have to look for it. Um, I'm pretty sure it was, it was mentioned, but the Paul Morphy was sort of just this legendary character who was cleaning up Europeans. And there was this game versus the Duke of Brunswick at this, at this opera house.
Um, And he, he beat the beat, this tandem pair and, or let me look at it as the Duke of ISE guard, you're probably already looking it up. What is the opera game opera 
James: [00:29:26] box game 
Danny: [00:29:28] versus versus Paul Mori home morphine versus Duke Carl. Um, Trying to find it. The opera game is like literally, literally the most legendary.
Why is the opera game important? It's Paul Morphy sort of like Magnum Opus. Um, and, uh, it's, it's a game that as has been sort of commonly referenced as, um, like a perfect chess game. Okay. Here it is. So it's against Duke, Carl, the second of Brunswick and the French Arista cat count ISO. De
Okay. So Paul Murphy's game is against these two sort of wealthy your European aristocrats, um, in this opera house. And it's basically like the perfect game of chess and it's full of sacrifices and like just amazing tactical aggressive play. And it's kind of like the. It's considered by many to be like maybe the most genius chess game of all time.
Right. But Mo Morphe then eventually after dominating Europe basically disappeared into the streets of new Orleans, which was assumed and common knowledge that he just was a massive drug addict and alcoholic and died at a very young age. Um, We can look up his Wikipedia. See, but without going into all that, I think I've done enough to say that Paul Morphy is sort of this mythical kind of iconic legend of the chess world seem to have been the first ever world champion.
Um, he was in a ma uh, French American, which is a huge deal. And before the Europeans and particularly Eastern Europe and Russia, the Soviet union took over and he, um, Basically played this legendary game of chess that's considered, you know, maybe the most perfect chess game of all time and died at a young age due to obsession and basically drug drug addiction.
Right. As a fanatic chess player, he was a drug addict. And so now back to what Harry beltic is saying, which he's basically telling Beth Harman that. It's not just that you might become Morphe that, but you kind of are morphine in terms of, and maybe that was, I made a note that I thought Harry belt, his comments were a little harsh and maybe coming from a little bit of a heartbroken man.
Yeah. To be honest, because she clearly broke his heart, but I'm not saying that they're not that they weren't wrong. Right. Or they, at least weren't a fair warning to Beth about what not to become. Right. But what was your thought on how direct Harry was with, with his opinion of, of Beth there? 
James: [00:31:54] Yeah, it was kind of classic bell tick.
I think that he was definitely upset about the situation. He, you know, Regardless. If he did have feelings, he had some sort of feelings for Beth. You know, they obviously spent a night together, maybe multiple nights together. We don't know, you know, there's some connection there that he had, so that, but there was also this fear that he doesn't want to see her go that way.
But. I don't think that he can express he can't express feelings. Well, that's one thing that we've noticed with Harry beltic is, and neither is Beth really well, but definitely Harry buildings is not, he doesn't know how to express things. So that's his way of expressing. He, you know, he is, which is like, Hey, you're you're you got to read these books.
You're not doing this right here. It's like this example, you're, you're turning into this, you know, be careful, you know, that's what he, that's how he answer is be careful. And he gives her the bottle back, which is kind of like, you stole her pills, but like, is it even her pills? You don't know if it's her pills.
Like it could be your mom's, your mom just died.  so, um, 
Danny: [00:32:52] Yeah. Well, I think he, I think he knew he was, he was right, but yeah, but it's definitely like, you're not that, like, there are shades of white, right? Like they're like black and white. What does Yoda say? Only a Sith deals in absolutes, right. Or maybe that's what it will be.
One says I forget. Right. But I think that's true. Right. I think that it's. It's the luxury of the ignorant to deal in pure dogmatic thinking. And I've said that before, I'm sorry if that gets too deep, but that generally tends to be my opinion on philosophies of life. I think people are complicated. I think we're all flawed.
And I think, you know, you know, ignorance is bliss in the sense that we get to believe, well, I'm a hundred percent right about this person or that thing. And I think that Harry's a heartbroken dude in this moment, kind of angry. Kind of come to terms with the fact that he's never going to be as great of a chess player as Beth and that the woman he, he loved and kind of had an obsession with, right?
Like he thought he loved her. Maybe he realizes maybe I didn't really love this woman. I love the thought of her. Right. And I think that's kind of what he comes to realize. And I think he's a little angry. So he throws some barbs that said, I mean, like. He's not wrong. I mean, Beth is Beth is chess first chess, second chess, third.
Right. That's what he learns about who Beth Harmon is. And, and she doesn't, she doesn't love him or at this point, maybe, maybe anybody. Right. And more than just, and, and he kind of, he kind of points that out to her and kind of says, like, combine that with having a drug addiction. Hey, this may not be the best path for you.
I think that there were probably a lot softer ways to warn a friend about things you're worried about than to say you are already Morphe and by the way, Morphe died at a young age with a drug addiction, right? 
James: [00:34:26] Yeah. And he, and he quit chess at 22 and you're 19 right now. So you're not too far away from where he's going to, you know, you're going to go mad basically.
Right. 
Danny: [00:34:35] I used to say about this by the way that I can't until, you know, the end of the series. So because you have no idea how it ends, right. 
James: [00:34:41] No idea. No, not at all. 
Danny: [00:34:42] Okay. So I have to hold back, but I will say this and I, and I, I know I said that in the last episode of him so far, I promise you, I'm not about to give you any spoilers, but what I, I do really like episodes five, six, and seven.
I like where the show goes from here. I, I told you when I watched episode four for like the second time with my wife and she was like, this is why I don't want to see the show. Right. And what is, where's this going? I do really. I was both surprised and incur. I enjoyed the show overall. And I'll say that this episode is where in a good way, I feel like they start to get really deep and start to get heavy about.
You know, what's at stake for this person, not just on the chess board, but as a person. Right. And I think that as, as kind of messed up as this hairy belt, it kind of sign off is, and all this stuff, I just liked that they get, they get kind of real, right. It's like, Oh man, bleep just got real. Right. And, and that's kinda what happens here in this relationship with belts.
James: [00:35:34] Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. And if you, as we talk about this, there's less chest to analyze because we don't get to really see any chats because they really took this episode to take a break from that and really focus on these things. I think there's a lot of fascinating things that there's two fascinating things that happened during her time at.
Um, with Harry beltic one. I want to say, if we jump back now a little bit is the bore gov interview. Um, that is a flashback that has a flashback to him playing, you know, in one of the multi whatever things as a child, you know, and, and. There's this 
Danny: [00:36:13] assign assignment, assignment. I love what you just said. A multi whatever thing, first of all, I freaking love that I'm going to now call every Simon light play from henceforth with a multi whatever thing.
James: [00:36:27] It's a multi, whatever thing, you guys, the thing with the you and the thing, and they play the games all at the same time simultaneously. It's just the, the thing with the play, the 
Danny: [00:36:35] things. Yep. 
James: [00:36:36] Yeah, I think this was a, this was, was fascinating because finally she sits down. She sees reading about him. We see this flashback where bore Goff says, you know, now he's playing people half his age and time is the only thing.
Like, he doesn't know how long, how much longer he's going to be able to do it. And time is the real enemy, 
Danny: [00:36:55] right? 
James: [00:36:56] Yeah. That was fascinating. Oh, 
Danny: [00:36:58] Oh, sorry. I know I was listening to you. I loved it. I really don't have any of that. I think it was a great interview and I think you're right. It sets the tone that.
You know, I guess, any, any great champion feels that way. I think at a certain point, you see people express that, right? I think, I really feel like I've heard Federer or I did years ago say a similar thing. Right. It doesn't matter what you do, right. Time catches up with everybody. Um, and I think that it's definitely setting the tone for how great of a challenge bore golf will be.
And this inevitable battle that we know will come. Right. But also kinda like. You know, just the way he, the way he approaches things too. He, I personally feel like the more I get to know bore God, the more I like him. Right. Um, and he, and he's kind of like humble in the sense that he knows how great he is, but he also knows like, Hey, like it, death comes for us all, as they said, 
James: [00:37:48] well, you know, I think you get to see a little bit of bore golf when he's out with his family.
Like there's a human there. And I think that's what we get to see where a lot of this, um, is set up where they say the, the Soviets are. You know, uh, brick wall, you know, they they're, they're not human almost where, you know, I was a real human right. They're there. Now we'll say this as we move on, there's an amazing scene.
Maybe my favorite scene. Second to favorite scene in this episode, which is the, Oh, how the tides have turned on Margaret from high school inside of the best Snyder. Hmm. Yeah. 
Danny: [00:38:23] Now Tillotson Margaret Johnson, you know, 
James: [00:38:25] Johnson. That's right. Where she goes, you know, because back in the day she was making fun of Beth for shopping there and she would never shop there, but who's there Margaret Johnson.
That's a right with our little baby and alcohol on the bottom of it. Yeah. That's 
Danny: [00:38:39] the real twist. Right? You see the alcohol right at the last second. Sorry, go ahead. I loved it though. I, I agree. It's, it's sort of sad, but it also shows like, You know, Margaret kind of went the path of her late mother whisky, miss sweetly.
James: [00:38:52] And then we continue onto the Ohio U S championship 1967. Not to be confused with the us open championship. Those are two different things, Danny, 
Danny: [00:39:02] correct? Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. In fact, you're. Clarity of that. I made a note of, because it is a mistake and I kind of let it go and episodes three and four, um, when it was sort of mentioned by the mother, like, Hey, you're like co us champion.
That's actually not true. The us open is different than the U S championship, the invitation. All right. Um, and so in the, in the chess world, you would say you were co you at us open champion. Like you would very, uh, Uh, purposefully, add the word open in that, right. It's a distinct difference. And, um, anyway, just for, just for clarity.
So her and her and Benny had previously met at the U S open championship, but this is the us championship where the top players have been invited to come and play. 
James: [00:39:49] So, which one's more prestigious. 
Danny: [00:39:51] This one we're about to see here in episode five, you, uh, the us open is a, is a big deal. And as you saw, it was.
It had Benny there. Right? Remember in Vegas, Benny, Betty was there. Um, but it's a different type of event. So the difference between a close and an open is in an open. You're playing much weaker players at the earlier rounds. And then as all the strong players, when they eventually battle it out at the top, in order to have a clear champion, those events sometimes open events tend to be a little longer, like an open event might be nine or 10 rounds so that we have enough time to kind of make our way through lower seated players.
And that eventually battled at the top. Whereas the U S championship, if it's like only eight players, it could just be like a seven round round Robin. You play each person with each color. Each person has been invited there. And, um, so does that, does that make sense? The difference between a closed and an open.
James: [00:40:44] That makes sense. So in this regard, does it really make a lot of sense how they sort of threw them into this Ohio sort of college? You know, I mean, Benny, when they meet up, he he's like, I can't believe we're here. We're playing with plastic pieces on plastic sets 
Danny: [00:41:01] that whole scene, by the way, 
James: [00:41:02] if a U S championship is supposed to be more prestigious.
Is this realistic, is it just of the 
Danny: [00:41:07] time the it's more prestigious in terms of the strength of it, but it doesn't mean it's more prestigious in terms of the, um, the atmosphere, I guess. Right. Cause so I see what you're saying now. You're, there's, you're kind of making a comparison to the environment of the us open, where it had like the glitz and the glamour sort of thing right in Vegas versus this.
Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, that's funny cause that, that I didn't, I didn't think about that comparison. But it actually is a very realistic and accurate comparison and that often the open events, because they are, because they also, I get hundreds, if not thousands of more people, there's a lot more, there's a lot of money in those events, the organizer.
So like the organizer. Yeah. It makes a lot of money on all the under sections. In fact, The way, a lot of open events work. If you looked at like the rolled open the us open the national open there's, you know, the Aeroflot open a huge open and, and, and, and Moskva Russia, uh, that has been a staple of elite chefs for, for decades.
Um, the way it's funny, this, this is how the chess world works. The top sections are borderline philanthropy by the organizer, and that they're going to be paying out a lot of money to the two very few big name players. Um, that they're not going to get back, but the rest of the two D event, all the other sections where you're Mike and Matt's come, right, your Mike and mats are paying the entry fee for hundreds and hundreds of players, uh, there.
And, and so that basically pays for the event. Right? And, and very often there's a lot of money for the organizer in an open event where they can afford just sort of liven up the place a little bit, right? Like the events in Vegas. Are often like a festival they're, they're a spectacle. Um, and there's a lot, there's a lot in the show of the top player section, which is the more I talk about it.
It's really funny. I feel like I'm giving like an existential audit of my own like chess world upbringing. These are oddities. I didn't always. Appreciate right or notice. And, and the truth is, man, it makes me want to talk to other chess players after this and be like, Hey, have you ever really appreciated how much?
Basically the top section is just a massive loss every year for the organizer. And if not, for all the other sessions where these people come kind of to see the top players. They come to see the top players and they pay an entry fee for a section where their section, the chances of winning a prize are very, very small because they're just not that good, but they're basically supporting the lifestyles of the professionals.
And this ecosystem is really what would describe chess opens globally. Holy crap. I just like, I can't even believe what just came out of my mouth, but it's true. 
James: [00:43:44] And. 
Danny: [00:43:45] And it's very true. And then the invitationals were like, I can tell you some of the most elite invitationals I played, which were not, you know, like the most elite, like were kind of had that feel.
You're kind of like stuck in like the elementary, like school, primary room on the weekend, right. Where janitor, Bob forgot to do his job on Friday. Right. Well, Bob, Oh, Bob. Right. Anyway. It's just, it's odd, but it's true. 
James: [00:44:08] That's great. Yeah. And it's fascinating. Cause I did look up this originally and I was trying to see like where really the us championship took place in 1967.
It was actually kind of hard to find. I couldn't find it because I got hung up on the U S open championship in 1967, which happened in Atlanta and pal Banco won that one. But if you. Messed up and Google that you had missed that in 1967 is when Fisher won the us championship and it was his eighth and his final American title.
Danny: [00:44:39] And 1967, he didn't play after that. You're right, because he was playing other lead events, but 1967 and who wins this one at the end of this episode, right? Our, our lovely Beth Harman, right. Again, the Elvish to Fisher and there, the characteristics of these, of the, you know, whatever, what they're doing with the writing and, and drawing the parallel lines between them happens again in this episode.
James: [00:45:01] And let's just give a big shout out to our 2020 championship, uh, winner Wesley. So, and our 2019 are our favorite of all time Nakamura. I just had to look up the last two years for funding. 
Danny: [00:45:11] Um, yeah. Hey, Cora won his fifth in 2019. Wesley. I think this was his second. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, Yeah. And Wesley won it online this year because of COVID.
Um, so Hey has actually one, the last one that took place OTB over the board in St. Louis. 
James: [00:45:31] Fascinating. Yeah. I wonder how well, 20, 21, we'll see if we're going to have a repeat or not and see what happens. Oh my goodness. Um, well, let's get into this scene because this is my favorite sequence of chess ever.
Uh, we get introduced to Benny. And what a great interaction, 
Danny: [00:45:49] a proper introduction we've dealt. We've dealt with him a few times, but this is like the most dialogue we've had. Right. 
James: [00:45:55] He's a real human, I think that's what we kind of learned this. I was, he's a real human and yeah, he, he, he he's like, you know, I'm cheap plastic board please.
Cheap pieces. Can't believe there's no reporters, anything. And it is a very stark contrast to the us open that we saw where they too, those were together. That's why I thought it was so. It was unlike anything we've ever seen. This is the first time since the Kentucky Kentucky state championship in which it's not prestigious, like the people are falling asleep, snoring in here and it's, uh, it's odd.
Danny: [00:46:27] Yeah. It's, it's also very well, like I said, I loved it because Benny. Benny, like in Bray Benny's character. And they did a good job with him. I, I I've said critically in earlier podcasts that in some ways they kind of went over the top with the hat and the, not the Cape. I call it a Cape, right. His hat and his Cape, his cloak and his belt and his knife.
Right. Like they kind of went over the top to really drive home. The point that Benny is meant to like, just sort of exemplify the. The sort of the idiosyncrasies that a genius chess player has and like a guy that's committed his life to the game, but also everything he says, like he, he appropriately articulate have a lot of top chess players feel like, honestly, like I, and as much as it.
I hope it doesn't sound arrogant at all because it's not, it's more mental, like, Hey, where are our cheerleaders? Right. Like I joke when I was younger that I would go and I painted my chest for my brother who played, started varsity and basketball. And I was just like, I was my brother's biggest fan. Right.
And he eventually played division one in college and, and he, and I always joke because he was so supportive of me. He's like, dude, you're like literally more world elite than I am. At chess and basketball and like nobody knows it and nobody cheers for you. Right. And it was awesome. It was like a cool thing we shared.
And it always like wore my heart that he felt that for me. Cause he was like a huge fan of my chest. Right. And I was a huge fan of his basketball, but chess players don't have fans and like Benny articulate, like, Hey, like we're the best at the world at what we believe in do. And we've got this guy. Pick in his belly button, cross falling asleep at our thing.
Right. And the other tournaments only have big money, the opens because it's where the organizers make money kind of like taking advantage of the amateur sections. And this is literally the ecosystem of the chess world. And for years, James, I mean, if you actually look it up, like until. Until rec Sinfield came along in St.
Louis for those who don't know the St. Louis chess club and Scholastic center. I mean, he kind of saved the us championship. Like there was a group out of Seattle for years, the yes or Sarah brought on that was doing a great job, but then they, then they left and there was years where the us championship.
Was not quite as close to what you know, to what, what is depicted here, but not that far from it. Right. And, and it really felt odd to the world's best chess players because you just, it just, I don't know. It just didn't, it doesn't feel good, right. To be really good at something and not be appreciated for it and Benny right or wrong.
He just expresses that he articulates how a lot of chess players feel. 
James: [00:48:56] Yeah, you're right. And there's a, quite a lot of professions that are out there where it's the same, which you have this you're, you have this fan base in and around chess. Right. And you see him, he was on the cover of chest review magazine.
This episode, we kind of skipped over that part, which was a great scene too. Um, but you know, w is that prestigious enough? He's not feeling like the celebrity that he. You know, really thinks and believes that they are right. And I think this us championship is, is, is a sticking point there compared to what the other ones, where he wants them all to be that prestigious, because they're at the top of the game.
So, um, all right. Well, we get into the chess because the chess happens in one of the most amazing like Brady bunch music based. 
Danny: [00:49:39] Yeah. Yeah. So good. So the style that they do it in like showing the faces, the squares on the board, right. And, uh, and then they just start bouncing around, but it's really just the Beth and Benny show was beaten people.
James: [00:49:52] Oh yeah. Crushing it. Crushing it. Crushing you go day one, day, two day three. I, when I watched it again for the second time, I just, I put it, I was just like, this is a great scene of rewind rounded again. It was like just, I just could watch this all day. It's like very, I dunno, I just, that's kind of how you chest is moving.
It's going, it's crushing it. And Benny and, and hurt is crushing it back and forth and it was fantastic. And then. If they get to the end of day three and it's in it's Benny V Harmon coming up, they have a whole day off. And you know, Ben is like, Hey, I'm going to go up to the quad and hang out with the bros, drink some beers, play some 
Danny: [00:50:26] children through the quad, the gymnasium, you can bring your green hat.
James: [00:50:30] That'd be awesome. That'd be great. Um, and then, uh, of course she's like, no, I'm going to go study. And, but then there's this amazing scene, which is about to come up, which brings us to one of the most popular things in. Uh, chess right now, which is, is bullet right? Bullet blitz bullets, bullets. We just had the bullet chest blitz champ championship, the chest championships.
That's P D w w G U S. Open. 
Danny: [00:50:56] Yeah, there you go. The, the S the C w S Eastern, Northern Southern Niner, um, championship. Um, no, but, uh, Yeah, so it's funny. Right? So he invites her to come and play on the rest day, which is very common. You would have a rest day at the halfway point. So that checks out. Um, and because my math, I was paying attention to this.
I think there were eight players, which would mean the rest day is somewhere around day three or four. So again, math checks out that would be kind of hard. Um, and then everybody hanging out well with the, uh, with the college kids, having some beers, playing some, playing some speeches, the one kind of dialogue mistake, which my buddy Sam Copeland pointed out.
He had a great video, which pointed out kind of summarize the very few chess mistakes of the whole series. The one kind of like weird dialogue thing they have Benny say is like, Hey. You want to play some speech? Yes. Or if not, we can play some Skittles or we can play some bug house or some blitz. Like basically all of those are the same thing.
And so it's not, that's not true other than bug house, which is a specific game in chess where you play kind of two V2 boards. We're not going to get into that. That's a, that's a different podcast. Um, but let's say other than bug house speed, chess, and then playing Skittles is just a fancy term for mess around chess.
Like just so you know, like playing some Skittles, like there's like a Skittles room. It's like, I don't even know where that term came from. Cause someone was tasting the rainbow that night. I don't know. And they named it Skittle. I don't know. Right. But the Skittles taste, the rainbow chess. I literally don't know where Skittles came from.
Manchester. I've been asked that, but the Skittles room is a real thing. And it just means like full around chess and then blitz that he says at the end is speed. Chess, like blitz is feature. So that was kind of like one of those things where they fed him some lines, you know, that, I don't know that Bruce panel Feeney or Gary Kasparov were on set that day.
Advising I'll say that right. 
James: [00:52:42] Is is, is, is bullet a thing. It bullet blitz speed are, those are the things there's bullet, not a thing. I just 
Danny: [00:52:48] have a bullet is a thing, but he, but he doesn't say that he actually says speed chess. And then he says, blitz in the end, he doesn't actually say bullet. Um, so you're right.
If he had said bullet that would have checked out, cause that would be a different kind of chess. So anyway, I'm nitpicking and this is where the. You know, the Purdue Hollywood producer gets mad at the chess player where he just says, you know, look, you know, be grateful. You got any attention chess guy. Um, so he's not wrong, but I, I did want to point out that for like the, for the chess people, there was a little bit of a, of a Michael Scott cringe where you go, Ooh, that's, that's a little awkward, right?
It made you feel that way. Um, but long story short, they sit down and here they go. Now you take it away. They're playing some speed. 
James: [00:53:25] They're playing some speed, chess, and apparently different than bullet, which I had written down on a, why did, I mean, bullets are fast and it's kind of like your blitz in, what did you explain this to me?
But this is a fantastic. Just set up because I don't think that Beth has played speed chess at all before. I think she says that and she has no idea what she's in for, to be honest, because she's just only really played one type of chasse. And if you go back to. Even the Kentucky, um, state championship, where she had to learn about time control.
This is a whole nother beast and Benny throws up the $5 per game and she is in for a world of hurt. So I need to understand that the listeners need to really understand is why was it in which Beth simply got crushed so hard in this speed chess and why is it so different than normal chess? 
Danny: [00:54:16] So, um, a few, a few things, right?
The, um, The first thing is later and they kind of break down the dialogue, you know, on the rest day were where he kinda, he kind of acknowledges that, you know, he knew he was going to be better than her in speech. Yes. Right. Cause she hasn't played a lot of blitz. And um, so I think part of it is that she just is sort of out of her league trying to hustle with the hustler kind of thing.
Right. Whereas. You know, when you're playing with a guy who like clearly, you know, he ended up finding a later he lives in New York. Like I said, Benny is the exemplary exemplary depiction of a chess guy who spent a lot of time just playing a lot of chess. And I think that she was just kind of out of her league against a hustler on a night with some beers and some bros and some blitz beers, bros and blitz, by the way, that's a great bar name, beers, bros, and blitz.
Okay. Noted. Um, so. So I think there was partly that. And then also what we find out later on in the episode is sort of the twist ending that she was kind of playing him a little bit, I think, cause she was like, he was like, Hey, you know, she's like, Hey, where are you trying to intimidate me? He's like, I don't need to intimidate you to beat you.
But then we find out that she basically crushes him in the last game and went to win the championship. Right. And. And I think there was a part of her that was sort of figuring him out a little bit. Um, at least that's sort of the way that they kind of set that up is that she basically was getting inside his head more than he realized.
And she was making mental notes of like his strengths and weaknesses and. I'm saying all this, knowing that the greatest blitz and speeding just of this entire series is coming up in the next episode. Okay. That's the only teaser I'll give, but it does, it does matter. And it gives me a little bit of context here.
And I think that one, yes, she was for the first time out of her legal a little bit, but I also think she wasn't as bad as she was letting on. And that Beth Beth was playing chess while Benny was playing checkers. You know, like that was a little bit of what was going on. 
James: [00:56:21] I now that you articulated that way, I can sort of see the reverse of it because when I was watching it back, I didn't correlate the events of the blitz to the super fast finish that she had, which was under 30 moves because they're at the bar drinking over it.
And Benny gets crushed and under 30 moves, which is very fast as we saw other ones go longer, much longer. And I can sort of see it now where. Wow. It sort of uptick his ego, right? I think it may be boosted his ego so much the night before that maybe he lost sight and started to play some of what he was going into as a blitz mentality and threw him for a loop I could.
Danny: [00:57:05] And nothing he said was untrue by the way. Speed. Chess is different than classical chefs. Like. It's it's just a different, it's a different game. I mean, just purely you have what much, much less time. So you're relying on, on different types of tactics, people who, who have specific opening repertoires and, and reach similar types of structures can be more effective at blitz than they would be a classical chess.
And the reason for that is like, um, what's the best way to say it. Like. Like, if you're being faced with the same type of problem over and over again, and you've seen it more than your opponent, you will seem better than you actually are overall at, at like the puzzle. Right. Does that make sense? Right?
It'd be like, I wish, I wish I could make an analogy. I'll sound like an idiot, but if you were like speed writing code decoders, do speed runs by the way. Right? Or be like, if someone's doing a speed road of Mario and they're the best in the world at, at, at levels one, two and three, and the game only lasts long enough that we're consistently racing through levels.
One, two, and three. We never actually see the entire show. Right. Does that make sense? Right. So speech just can basically ex you know, Make people stronger than they actually are because like, you know, you don't have enough time to solve or create more problems for an opponent who's consistently kind of playing their same opening repertoire, which means they're more familiar with the type of middle game pawn structures they get, which means they're more familiar with the type of tactics that ensue.
And so the whole thing becomes self-fulfilling where there are people that are better at speed and blitz and bullet than they actually are at classical chess where their opponent has a little more time on the clock to like. To remember, and to patiently expose other problems and things like that. So while overall the best players in the world are also the best in the world at every time control, including blitz and bullet, there are some type of people that because of their style are just better at faster time controls than they are at classical type 
James: [00:58:57] controls.
Gotcha. Yeah. And like you said, they're very, very, very different games. 
Danny: [00:59:03] Yep. There you go. So, but then, you know, as we continue, right. So then what happens like, you know, as we said, like the next day she kind of is like playing the poor girl on the bench, like, Hey, did you do that to intimidate me? But then she destroys his face.
And the next thing we see is them commiserating over it in a bar where we find out we don't even ever see anything. There are no X's and O's of this gate, all we know is the best, you know, kicked his ass, basically. 
James: [00:59:26] I would see like an E four opening, I think from Benny who opens his white, by the way. Uh, and yeah, that's it.
And, and that's, 
Danny: [00:59:35] that's just 
James: [00:59:35] kind of the end. That's kind of the episode, to be honest with you, right. Yeah, 
Danny: [00:59:39] but so what I was going to say, so now that you've heard my version of that, are you buying that, that they kind of set it up where like Beth was actually playing chess while Benny was playing checkers.
She was kind of getting to know him and he kind of feels played in the end that she sort of basically, you know, she white man can't jump him. You know, she big, she, she hustled the hustler in the ass. 
James: [01:00:00] I think it comes back to almost, maybe we'll do a little call out a little hairy belt at Kerry Wright, who was like, you gotta study, you gotta study Borg, you gotta study, you know, Benny.
And I mean, Hey, what can you say, Harry belts? It saves the day. 
Danny: [01:00:15] Yeah. And she, and she did it and she won. And then, and then we get those, those final conversations in the bar. Right before we wrap up the episode breakdown, this is where we set the tone where he's like, all right. So you've beaten me. You know, you're preparing preparers, but what are you going to do about Russia?
Right? He, you know, he's like, Hey, did you not get the memo in Kentucky right now? You get to go to Russia because you won the us championship, which is by the way, like, That's concrete affiliation. It is, it is a concrete thing that the us would want to send their best players to represent them in those events.
Right. But it's, it's, I've never known of like an event that is literally directly associated with the us championship kind of qualifier. I'm sure there is. And I'm just, you know, I'm just miss misremembering, but, um, anyway, what were your thoughts there on the final dialogue before we set the tone for the next episode?
James: [01:01:10] Yeah, no, I loved, I loved the dialogue. I love the Como comradery between them. You know, she's like, I can't believe you're taking this so well. And he's like, I'm boiled over an anger inside and he's playing the colon. I, you sort of see a weird, uh, friendship start to form there. And they're now one, one, you know, so that's.
That's not bad. And I, and I think it's, it's fun. She sees this hope that she now has this big, she's gonna be sent over to Russia. Right. So I think that's really, really fun. It was a really good episode. I really enjoyed this episode. I had less notes. I'm usually I have like 25 pages of notes. And I said, you know, there's really just some interesting things with Harry, some interesting things from the U S championship and are not going to pull out any weird, crazy.
That's a Boeing seven 84, you know, that didn't exist, Annie, but, uh, Uh, yeah, it was a good episode. I 
Danny: [01:01:57] enjoy it. And then in the bar though, I mean, there's the, like where she kind of rubs Benny's hair, right. And he's like, wait a second. Not happening. Remember what he said? Oh, 
James: [01:02:07] no sex, no sex. He, he laid down the ground rules.
He's like, this is this. And what's going to have, you can come to New York, but no, sir, 
Danny: [01:02:14] it was, that's what he does. So he invites her to New York, which is again, like I thought it was kind of like. Other than the, you know, the guy, girl sexual tension thing, like that's kind of a thing. A lot of chess players did in the era.
Like they would, you know, that was their best chance to travel and work together. And the Soviets were famous for working more closely as a team because everything was about Soviet glory, not about individual glory, right. The being, being a state sponsor mindset is very different than like what America's mindset has always been.
And that really is something I've experienced in terms of the capitalistic versus like for the greater good nature. And you and I could get, I mean, this is a whole other podcast, but there are things Harry belt access earlier where he says that who's the guy who says that is what's, his name must have been super tired or someone poisoned his tea.
Do you remember that? So that was actually a direct reference to man. Yeah, we did skip over. So that, that was really good because it's direct reference to accusations that have come toward or came toward the Soviet union on a regular basis in the era, in terms of coercing and manipulating results to ensure that the person they wanted to win would win.
Like players would be told like, Hey. Bought is supposed to win this tournament or Karis is supposed to win this tournament. And, um, because that was who the Soviets had decided already was their best chance at retaining the world title or winning the world title. And so. Some of those things were like borderline sort of proven with corroboration and evidence.
Some of them were pure rumors, but it definitely was something that Bobby Fisher was very outspoken and accusatory of the, of the Soviets doing, um, sort of, you know, this whole, this whole greater, you know, game theory thing. And so for Benny, I digress a little bit, but I'm getting to the point that for Benny to kind of invite Beth is kind of like the beginning of the us being like, Hey, she's our best hope.
Like, you're going to go over there. I'm going to give you all that I have to give you, right. And make sure that you're prepared because the Americans historically have not worked as well together as the Russians, as the Soviet. And it always showed in the biggest moments. And so that was my final note in the end.
Um, as far as things about him inviting her to New York, in addition to whatever the S E actual I'll call it, the Chiesi will tension. That's developing about Bethany and Benny's hair. 
James: [01:04:33] Yeah, there you go. And it is good hair. Um, w can, why is this episode called fork? I, I don't actually understand. 
Danny: [01:04:41] So my personal opinion is because Beth kind of hits a fork in the road, and I guess she goes the direction of, uh, she goes away from Harry Belzec and the direction of, of choosing.
Choosing, you know, the chess, I guess. I don't know. I mean, double attack in that, you know, she's got both Harry and Benny that she's into. I don't know. I'm I'm, I'm, I'm drawn here, right? Um, fork, uh, come on, throw something at me. Uh, wholly fork balls. Um, no, but I kind of took it as like a little bit of a fork in the road.
Um, for, for Beth and she goes the route of Benny and hops in a car and heads to New York with him. Um, you know, I guess so I guess so, you know, honestly, gosh, four, four. Okay. 
James: [01:05:28] No, no, I couldn't. There was cause there wasn't any chess, often we can relate it to chess and to the show itself. Yeah. Maybe there was a fork in the road of she wasn't choosing between anything.
That's a thing is. That's why I couldn't figure it out. So I D I couldn't relate the title to this to really anything. So have any of our listeners know, definitely let us know. You can write into the show@blunders.fm, or you can leave comments on the YouTube videos, which we have some Danny, we have some comments 
Danny: [01:05:55] I literally wrote, as you said that I was pulling it up.
Go ahead. So, um, you can read one first and I'll choose one. 
James: [01:06:00] Yes, I have one on, this is on the last episode, middle game from Julian. Drew's this longer, I'll only read the first half of it. And, um, Julian here was talking specifically around the tapping of the foot during chess. He says, as he says, great episode, best podcast in the entire world.
Thank you, Julian. Uh, is that however, as a European, I beg to differ on the question of tapping your foot loudly during a chess game is considered not only to be unethical, but also the general attitude towards something like that here in the, in the European chess scene, from what I've gathered over the years, of course, there's exceptions is you're not good enough to let your moves do the talking.
So you have to resort to distracting your opponent sign of a weak player. In my opinion, that's the main reason why he can't. They Julianne can't stand a crossbar of calling an arbiter in this situation would not be a sign of a weakness, but a sign of not putting up with unfair BS in their honest opinion, 
Danny: [01:06:57] Danny, I don't know that he's wrong.
And I don't, I don't remember actually just disagreeing with him. I kind of said it was sort of an unethical thing to do. It was. What I, I think what I was partly drawing too, is that they were both very young in-patient players, right. Her opponent was young, like a kid, literally, and she's kind of like sort of unethically kind of tapping her foot.
Right. And I actually talked a lot about, you know, some players that have been known to do things like that. And I wasn't, I wasn't applauding or encouraging the behavior. I'm just saying it is a thing. And it's kind of a mental warfare thing that is, has been done. And I don't think it's okay. And I don't, I don't even think of the U S it's.
Okay. Mark. My words, if an Arbor was called. They would punish them, but I don't know that someone would immediately call the Arbor versus just trying to ignore them and kind of like sort of man up and ignore versus versus like, just call it out and say, Hey, that's unfair. And you're right. I mean, there are different cultural standards and different thoughts about that stuff.
I don't, I don't disagree with, with Julian at all. I just think there's, um, you know, depending on where you come from, there's different expectations about how to handle your opponent's behavior. You know, I was like, I was, I was both taught like very, very clear, like ethical like standards. And I was even like chastised very heavily.
Some people get up and go look at the board from their opponent side. Like you're like stand directly behind their opponents board as if that makes a difference, which believe me, it doesn't really, but they do it to convince themselves it does, but they're secretly doing it to annoy. And I know that a lot of people have done that.
And I actually, it was chastised really heavily by, by Eva of my coaches. That was a super unethical thing to do. And he was like, you can't do that. That's that's not right. So I don't know that it is such a, I think it's a European versus American versus Soviet union thing. I think it's an individual person thing.
And I think that. People, hopefully we're given like the right light standards to let their moves, do the talking and not try to distract their opponent. But also there are many stories of both amateurs and among the world's best. I mentioned some names who were known. To do things and even accused of doing things, whether it's an accidental jerk under the table, or staring someone down.
And at the same time, like there were times where people won games and felt like they were an intimidating presence and, you know, to them all was fair in love and war because the goal is to win and they were a competitor first. So, you know, I think there's was a lot of different way. People like interpret things like that, but.
If I came across as condoning the foot tapping, that was not what I was saying at all. I was just clarifying that there's a lot of different things that happen in tournaments that I think people like James who don't know that she has and Ryan would be like, Hey, would anybody ever do that? And I'd be like, you know what?
Yeah, actually, there's a lot of things people do in tournaments and in environments. That are ethical or not on the scale of one to 10, right? Like everyone's scale is a little different. And, um, I will say this if my opponent was tapping and it was a tile floor and it was that loud, I would have called the arbiter for sure.
Right. Um, if it was like a carpet floor, I have, maybe I would, I don't know. It just depends, I guess, you know? Um, but yeah, I don't know if I properly answered the question. I think, uh, Yeah, I think, I think it does depend on the kind of person and you give kind of a long explanation of different, you know, Soviet union versus European.
And I don't really know that it's fair to say that it's, it's the culture. I think it is just the type of person and people, you know, sometimes you learn things that you also then, as you're later older, you learned that, Oh, that wasn't the right thing to do. Even if I was taught it and you as a person choose to do something differently.
Right. But I was kind of making the point that these things do happen. You would be surprised by the amount of psychological and mental warfare that goes on and how people handle it and what the standards are, can vary very differently. Can, can vary VAR, Y V E R Y. Different. All right, got it. All right. Um, last thing I'll say is Alvero Gonzalez says, I know that chess.com commentators use the YouTube chess.com interface.
I wanted to say, I agree with you. He wishes. I could show the annotations when I'm describing the chess moves, but unfortunately, Alvero, um, This is just a podcast. So, um, We don't have, we're not doing that. And if I ever do like a full video breakdown, we will definitely show it, but you can slowly follow along with the links that we give for the analysis.
I apologize. We can't add that visual element here, man. My apologies. Sorry, James. You go ahead. 
James: [01:11:07] Yeah, no. We try to add links on blenders.fm and we do, we do post these to Danny's YouTube. If you are listening on YouTube, we appreciate you being here and we do read all the comments there too. We also encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast app, uh, app that's out there at Google.
Google podcasts, Apple podcast, Spotify. We're on all of them. That way you get up to date, but you can also just follow Danny's. We're just posting them there as a, yet another way to get the podcast out to the people. And we got some good comments. In fact, one here from Andrew three days ago, this was on openings, which, um, you know, we've been seeing some activity on the first one.
So people are still catching up, right? Whether it's to go back. Um, Andrew says our chess board is wrongly aligned in our, in our, uh, logo. Is that correct? 
Danny: [01:11:51] Wait a second. Hold a tick. Hold on. I'm sorry. My, my internet I'm recording on with mods today is, uh, from, uh, from home, which is slightly slower. Don't worry.
This isn't going to make it to the final edited edition. No, I'm kidding. I love saying things. Don't worry. This won't make it into the final edited edition, knowing that it will cause that was funnier. Um, all right. Sorry. I'm opening it now allows me to look. Um, honestly, we have not paid very close attention to the thumbnail, but that is a very important piece of evidence, especially for a podcast.
That's all about chefs or has a chess master who notices things when they're wrong. And I think indeed he's right. But hold on, I'm trying to make a very close look to see whatever excuses I can make. 
James: [01:12:38] It's kind of hard because the chess pieces are close. Is he saying that the. Like our queen and King should be on opposite sides.
Danny: [01:12:47] No, he's saying, he's saying the closest square is, is, is w he's right? Oh my gosh. I have to redo this image and update the artwork. So the square where the white Rook should be the closest square to us should be a light square. If you raise your right hand, when you're facing a chess board, the square. In the, in the far right corner should be white for both players.
So, um, like if black and white are facing across, the colors are actually wrong here. Now, the board is not wrong necessarily if it was set up the other way, like if black was facing white, like directly in front of us, does that make sense or white, black, but from the sideways angle, that's actually incorrect.
Oh my God. I feel deeply ashamed. And for the record, I just, I was not focused on that element of this particular image, but we will address that. I'm literally taking a screenshot of it for Marina, my lovely designer, who made this image for me in MOTS quite some time ago. 
James: [01:13:43] I do have to say that someone did comment make Allen who said that it actually could be on purpose.
Our podcast is called coffee house blunders. 
Danny: [01:13:53] Well, either that, or I should just leave it that way and forever let this comment to Andrew live in infamy. Um, 
James: [01:13:59] I think so. I think we have to 
Danny: [01:14:01] maybe we'll just let it be. Wow. Copy. I was wonders. There you go. So guess what? It was planned all along Andrew twist ending, you just got punked, 
James: [01:14:09] but we just got served son.
Um, It was, I thought that was hilarious. Cause no, it does make sense. Cause I'm looking at your, your, your chest bullet brawls live show recap. And I do see that. Yeah. Now I understand funnily, I do like that analogy that we all learned something today, lift your right hand up and that should be the white square on the right, the right side.
Danny: [01:14:27] Crazy. Yep. Anyways. 
James: [01:14:30] All right. Yeah, 
Danny: [01:14:30] buddy. Crazy, crazy stuff. So, all right. Well this has been a lot of fun. 
James: [01:14:34] Yeah. I had a lot of fun. I cannot wait for six and seven. We'll be back in next week. We hope everyone has a happy holiday. Whether you're celebrating Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, all the holidays, we hope you warm wishes and we will see you right before the new year's.
And then after the new year's represents six and seven, make sure that you tell your friends about the podcast. If you've enjoyed this, go to blunders.fm, you can leave a comment anywhere or send us an email. So until next week, this has been coffeehouse blunders. Thanks for listening.