Episode
James: [00:00:00] Come back, everyone to coffee, house blunders seasoned to the Queen's gambit edition. I'm James Monton Magno. I'm a program manager by day chess officiated by night. And additionally, sometimes I'm Batman. Yes. And with me, my best friend in the entire world international. Master and chief chess officer or chief content officer.
However you want to say it. chess.com. Daniel ranch. How's it going buddy? 
Danny: [00:00:38] Going good, man. That was a very fast and furious start. I liked that you sounded like a DJ from like a small town and like Sandusky, Ohio or something. Like welcome back. You hit it. You hit it hard. I love it. Let's do it. 
James: [00:00:50] Record, record, record.
Welcome back everyone to call the house blunders the one and only podcast you need to break down the Queen's gambit international sensation. Um, yeah, this, um, Um, if here we get into it, we are episode four. If you haven't been following along yet to a season two of coffee house blunders, Danny and I have been breaking down every single episode of the Queen's gambit with no spoilers of future episodes, which is important because I have not finished Queen's gambit because I stopped when we started recording this podcast so I can live it.
Side-by-side the deep, intense. Analysis that Danny gives us, uh, every single game. And I bring in a unique perspective of I'm not an international master or master or national master, or really a good chess player at 
Danny: [00:01:33] all. So I was just waiting to see where that went. That was awesome. But you said you're watching it real time, which makes it really special.
This episode here middle game is the first official episode that you have that you had not seen. Um, Until after we started the podcast. 
James: [00:01:49] That's correct. Yeah. And I watched it twice yesterday, so my wife and I sat down, we watched it normal. I only bugged her once or twice kind of. I was like, can I please rewind it 15 seconds?
Just so I can get the notes. I was taking notes while we were watching it. But I left a big gap so I could rewatch it. And I wrote down some key things. I was like, I'm going to fact check that I'm going to, you know, you know me on this podcast, what, what year was that TV made? What airplane was that? This episode?
Um, I didn't get that much. I only have one or two fun facts for us, but this, this will say I, things got real on this episode and not only in chess, but. In life and is sad. Like the whole time I was, I walked away, sat on so many levels about everything. And my wife was like, I knew that was going to happen.
Like no big deal. We'll get to it. But I was just like, man. So sad, the whole, the whole thing. 
Danny: [00:02:43] Interesting. I can't wait to hear. Okay. You've got notes. And I also watched it again yesterday, also with my wife and also hilariously, this was the FA this was the. Uh, the first episode, or let's say last episode, which is why I almost just combined the words first and last with fast.
No, but this was the fast episode Shauna had seen meaning when I was first sort of given the task by the team@chess.com like, Hey man, this thing's blown up. We're going to do tons of breakdown videos. We need you to binge the show. I started it on a weekend and she made it to this episode with me. So she's now seen the first four episodes.
Twice as well. And she hasn't seen it, but so it's five, six and seven. So she left the episode yesterday also saying the same thing. Like now I remember why I didn't want to keep watching the show. It's so sad. I don't, what are we doing here? Right. So she actually, I'm like, don't worry. Now we're doing the podcast.
We're going to watch five, six and seven. It does. It does. Um, pick up again. You're not going to be sad the whole time. So it's funny. She had the same feeling, uh, Shawna did after, after last night watching it. 
James: [00:03:44] And I'll say this when we were watching it yesterday, Heather, my wife, she, she stopped me many a times like three or four times throughout the, the, uh, episode and asked me questions.
She's like, did you and Danny discuss this? Did you and Danny discuss this because right. She now knows that sort of I've been telling her, like, as we've been going on walks, I've been breaking down the first three episodes, all these different things. And, and it was great because getting her perspective gives me additional questions to ask you.
Cause I was like, Oh yeah, we did discuss that. But we didn't get that far because it didn't happen. Right. We didn't have a. We didn't have a, uh, adjourning of a game ever. Like I've never experienced that. And that happened in this episode and she's like, well, how does it actually work? And I'm like, I'm about to find out tomorrow.
Danny: [00:04:28] I thought you were going to first tell me that story and be like, well, obviously I responded with my wife. Why aren't you listening to the podcast? And then you would know what we've discussed. That's true. 
James: [00:04:37] I don't know if she wants to put up with my voice for that much 
Danny: [00:04:39] longer, same thing. Um, she made a comment about that this morning, which is neither here nor there let's continue.
So 
James: [00:04:46] now that being said, we open up in a, in a very fascinating part because, uh, you know, Beth Harmon, she wanted to learn Russian. She's mentioned it before she's in Russian school and you. You were in Russia for a long time. Correct. 
Danny: [00:04:59] And I, my first note is Danny spent a lot of time in Russia and I actually still speak Russian.
I am not as fluent as I once was. And I won't say that I was ever, I was never like fully fluid. I think if you got that far, it would, you know, you could never lose it, but, um, You know, I've been to Russia a few times, but the time I spent the most there was, uh, the summer of 2002. Um, so I was 16 because I turned 17, not October.
That's right. So, um, I, uh, by the end, like, you know, you're cross the line of a language months when you start thinking in that language. So by the that's how I knew I was there for. Um, two full months, two full months plus, and like, not only was I reading it like street signs and stuff, but I was also like, when I was thinking about the chess moves, I played in several tournaments and it's actually where I got my first international master norm.
So for those of you who may be somehow. Haven't listened to our first three podcasts back up and listened to the third episode where I give kind of a detailed breakdown of what it is to actually become a title, chess player and earn what's called a performance norm, but that's at 16. That's where I earned my first international master norm, even though I didn't get the, I entitled.
So several years later and I was thinking in Russian. I was like, and I was remembering that kind of reminiscing about it was showing it because I also took Russian classes. I had a private Russian tutor, um, you know, read a lot of Russian history and I was fascinated by it by the, uh, the Bolshevik party and L things that grew into Trotsky and eventually Stalin and understanding the entire rise and fall of the Soviet union.
So I do, uh, for Americans, I do know a lot about Russian history more than probably most. And, uh, and yeah, I did. I did speak Russian and spent a lot of time there. 
James: [00:06:40] Yeah. You're fully immersed. It's completely different than learning in class because Heather is a Spanish major, but she also studied abroad in Spain and in Argentina.
And whenever we travel, you know, it takes a little bit to get back up, but. We were in Valencia and that's where she studied abroad. And she was with some of her friends. And you could just tell maybe after a half an hour of just everyone speaking Spanish, she was like right back in it a hundred percent.
And I'm just like enjoying it because I think it's, uh, you know, it's always fascinating. I have no idea. What's, what's being said because I just know language, but that's really cool. And where in Russia did you stay. 
Danny: [00:07:15] Moscow Moscow for the most part, most of all we did, I did go to St. Petersburg letting Grodd for the white Knights tournament, um, which is a famous tournament because it's during a time of the year where it never gets dark as Twilight, basically.
Um, even in Moscow, I mean, I remember the sun was setting post post 10:00 PM and up at three and, and I didn't, you know, it took me a while to get back on a sleep schedule after being there for so long. Um, and not just visiting for a tournament, but yeah, the white Knights is a famous tournament, um, during Twilight and a lot of other things take place in those nights besides just chess, um, because people never sleep.
But, um, but yeah, it's a famous tournament and, um, but other than that, I didn't really travel more than just kind of the greater Moscow, Moscow metropolitan area. Gotcha. 
James: [00:08:00] Very cool. I mean, that's, that's awesome. I've never been to Russia. I've had a few friends that have traveled through, uh, I love to travel.
It's we're talking about how it's actually kind of sad. I used to travel, you know, like you did, like I was on the road 80% of the year and now this year it's been none. So, um, it's fascinating. I'm, I'm excited to get a few shots in my arm and then head back on the road at some point in the next year or two.
But, um, yeah, it's definitely on my list to go travel. Cause I think it's just. Very fascinating. And yeah, Beth is in school learning Russian and you know, this episode to me, you know, there's an arching theme here, which is. I not the director right. Of this, but this episode starts to highly sexualized, um, Beth Harmon in, in first and more discreet way.
So she's, she's in class learning Russian there's this dude, I don't, I'm not impressed by this dude, by the way, he looks like a schmuck, but, um, you gotta, it does. I don't know. And you know, he invites her over one. I love this sort of. Uh, hippie, uh, wallpaper, whole set up. They got going on guitars on the wall and they're all smoking and having fun.
So she's like maturing a little bit and she's still actually 17. I got it wrong. I thought she was 18, but she hasn't turned. 
Danny: [00:09:15] No, I made a note of that, that things in this episode are probably not legal, although in the sixties it wasn't necessarily, um, The same as it is nowadays, I guess, um, 
James: [00:09:27] the smoking of the era though, now it's even more legal than ever technically.
Right. So it's just smoke with smoke weed. So, um, but you know, I think that, um, fascinatingly, you know, when we look back at the previous episode with towns, it actually makes towns even more creepier, you know, cause we thought that she was 18 and she's not. And then it gets really weird because she's still 17 throughout this entire episode.
And, you know, so in the opening scene with this dude, you know, I think that Beth has boys on her mind. So she's maturing her. Body's maturing. We've we've seen this go on. We can now put our, you know, we can not step into the shoes of a 17 year old female. It's impossible. Right. So we can't really speak to Beth Harmon, but I will say this, especially later in the episode, they start to do a lot more.
Like sexualization of Beth for no reason. Like, I understand here where she's in this dude's home, she's got like, you know, on the mind, some sex on the mind she likes, 
Danny: [00:10:26] she likes the candle, but we won't talk about 
James: [00:10:28] this big a scandal. 
Danny: [00:10:31] It 
James: [00:10:31] is what it is. That's what it is. Okay. We can only be as family friendly as the show.
There's a 
Danny: [00:10:37] big, 
James: [00:10:38] big. I, this is not a candle I would purchase personally. Right. Um, I don't know why you would purchase this, this 
Danny: [00:10:45] candle. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big, um, although in the sixties, you know, the free love kind of movement and hippies, it was like, you know, sometimes in life. And if we look back at our culture, you know, you can't.
You can't start the swinging of a pendulum and ever expect it goes calmly back to the middle. That's just something that's just true about life and all things. Right? So once a pendulum has been grabbed, it's been pulled to a side it's going to swing violently for a while until it finds balance. And this is something that we know that generation, I mean, speaking to my parents and the baby boomers or whatever you want to call it, I mean, there was a movement to sort of rebel against not just organized religion, so to speak, but against the thought of traditional sort of like.
Sexuality, what was okay. What wasn't. Okay. I mean, you're literally in a scene, like you said, we can only be as clean as the episode there. They're borderline in like an orgy room. Right. I mean, like, it doesn't, it doesn't go that direction. Right. Obviously she has whatever experience she has there with, with this, you know, the schmuck as you call it.
Uh, but, um, but yeah, right. I mean, it's obviously a direct sort of just reference to what was, what was going on at the time and what was, what young people were, were doing as far as. And if you think about it, I mean, think about who her stepmother or starting at step. My adopted mother was right. You're talking about a more traditional woman who married into a relationship that we don't know what they were like when they were younger, but clearly at the time Beth Harmon came to their life and episode two, you're not talking about a woman who's happily and thriving in her marriage.
Right. We would not have disagreed with that. And so, but the traditional roles were that there was no place for a woman to like find herself outside of a marriage for the most part. But divorces, at least initiated by a woman were, were exceedingly rare at the time. Um, almost non-existent right. It was like, sort of be seen and not heard to a degree despite how miserable you are.
And then there was a generation that came up after them that rebelled, you know, aggressively against the sort of traditional way that, you know, um, that. Couples where they're so, so sort of, we'll just call it free love and, and different sexual partners was a part of the time. Right. And part of what they were doing to find balance and what you would argue was maybe previously in the pendulum, maybe too extreme the other way.
Right. In terms of traditional views and what was okay. It wasn't. Okay. So I just kind of look at it like that. And I look at the sixties as kind of an era that, you know, you're just looking at the way generations go. And that was kind of what was going on. There's a lot of stuff like that. So, you know, And this candle penis candle or not, it may be, you didn't have a penis candle, James, but people had penis candles back 
James: [00:13:14] then penis candles and waterbeds and 
Danny: [00:13:17] water.
James: [00:13:19] There was a, and I was like, what is that noise? So in this, in this scene, Beth, we assume Lee loses her virginity to this rock. Um, and. And is it, which is a hilarious scene. Cause they're both high and she's like how much longer? She's like how much longer 
Danny: [00:13:37] awkward and 
James: [00:13:38] super awkward. Just like, you know, as, as ones first time, every 
Danny: [00:13:41] everyone's first time is awkward.
Maybe not exactly waterbed, both sides are high awkward, but you get it. 
James: [00:13:47] I can't, I don't, I've never had a water bed, but I imagine even sleeping in a water bed has to be awkward. I don't understand water beds in general. If you own a water bed, anyone listening, please write into the show and we would love that feedback.
On-set water, 
Danny: [00:14:02] water bed. We'd like to get out detailed as possible at what different experiences, both sleeping and otherwise are like on water, but it's just kidding. 
James: [00:14:11] Um, so that, that whole scene transpired. And I love the next scene because I actually had this right now. She wakes up she's by herself alone in this house.
And she there's a note in a, in a, are we calling it a, a joint, a Doobie, um, um, a pre-roll if you will, was waiting for her there on the fridge. And they said, we're going to go see a movie in Cincinnati. And I was like, say, that's gotta be far away. I was like, how far away is Cincinnati? And. It's 1.5 hours.
So that is quite a long distance to go see a movie, but maybe there were no movie theaters in Lexington, Kentucky in 66. Um, but yeah, it was, it was a great scene. And by I actually miss my favorite part of the scene, which is she called her mom and her mom. I wrote it down. She goes, you know, are you with a boy or whatever?
And then, um, she, and she goes, be careful of what you smoke. 
Danny: [00:15:03] I love it. I 
James: [00:15:03] love it. It was just, it was just like her mom knows her mom knows what's up. You know what I mean? It was fantastical. So it was a fascinating scene. I thought that they characterized, you know, this experience fairly well. It wasn't overly sexualized.
I mean, yep. 
Danny: [00:15:19] It was, there was no nudity. There was no nudity. There was no, you know, and that's kind of an overarching theme of what the writing, and I'll say directing of the show has been about and continues to be, as you can say things without saying them. You can say things with looks, you can describe and imply without being overly direct.
Right? I mean, I think there's a lot of things left to you reaching a conclusion in a lot in a lot of both characters and just kind of the premise of the show. Right? So that's kind of what they did, you know, there's not, they don't need to go over the top and get graphic to imply what goes on. And, um, I only want to add one more thing before we move on from the speaking Russian topic in our schmuck, because, um, I made a note of that, not just my experience, you know, speaking Russian and spending time in Russia, but also that, again, it was a, a direct sort of reference to Beth Harmon's character being sort of based around Bobby Fischer, because for those who don't know, Bobby Fisher also learned Russian and it was well-documented that he wanted to speak Russian because he was confident that the Russians and the Soviets were talking about him and cheating at tournaments because they could tell each other things that.
You know, obviously him being the outside American would not understand. So, um, and then later on in this episode, we know we have the elevator scene, which we'll get into in terms of things said about Beth Harman. So I just, for the, you know, doing my job, bringing the chess references and what, what fictional slash factual storylines are we following?
That was, again, another thing that, um, could be very comparable to how Americans felt during the battle against the Soviet union in the cold war chest days. So, anyway, sorry, now we can move forward. 
James: [00:16:52] Oh, I know. We'll say one more thing on, on this entire, like learning Russian, the schmuck that I'm going to call it to have a new name.
Yeah. He said he wanted to learn Russian because he wanted to read the original dust dust. Devoskey 
Danny: [00:17:03] yeah. 
James: [00:17:04] In Russian, I didn't know who that author was. And then I looked. Set person up on Wikipedia and that's the author of crime and punishment and a bunch of other novels. But this would be like the one thing where a lot of times in Heather and I were discussing this, when you're watching television right.
And movies, they have a lot of facts. Like even Heather, she was saying up into a point, we didn't actually know. If Beth was in America or still in Paris, like for a little bit of time, until she got adopted, you'd really have to pay attention to, um, like, you know, the newspaper or whatever. And that flashes really quick in front of you or some of the dialogue that they say.
So you kind of have to pay attention to some of that where this character references this author on my, I don't know who that author is, or I don't know. I don't read books, you know, um, and fascinating. Yeah, 
Danny: [00:17:56] sorry. I was laughing about that. I don't read books and yeah, when I, when I first heard, I, I quickly, my brain was wrapped up in their discussion about communism and capitalism and I really, I believe yeah.
Monopoly. And the first time through, I admit I was like, I kind of didn't care who the author was. Cause I was like, you know, I, they're probably just talking about communist manifesto or Karl Marx or something, but no, you're right. That was a good it look up it a little more, a little more subtle than that, but obviously again, you've got this random American schmuck, right?
Learning Russian during that time as another way to rebel against the capitalistic oppressive American culture right. In his eyes. So there you go. All good? All good hippie love. Let's go. 
James: [00:18:35] And I love that they left her alone and then she just embraced that by the way. And yeah. Again, one of my favorite scenes is Beth in her element, you know, exploring freedom, what it means to kind of be alone in your house, doing whatever you want.
She's like drinking tons, dancing, tons, just like being herself. And that was a cool sort of inside view of how Beth's mind is working in this time as a 17 year old going on, like exploring some freedom, again, talking to the era where freedom and expressing yourself was at a forefront. So I thought that was kind of cool in general.
Danny: [00:19:08] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's something we didn't talk much about. We'll get into it more in this episode, given where it goes, but in our last, uh, breakdown, There was a lot of chess. And we talked a lot about the travel and, and your undiscovered nuggets of, you know, flight patterns and during the, during the sixties in the U S um, but, uh, there was Al also one of the things that happened in that episode was the first time that her mother had openly offered her an alcoholic beverage.
If you remember, when they were in the hotel room and in episode three, and she kind of said, Hey, you want a beer, right? And, and then in this episode, that kind of a goes full fledged. You know, she's really. You know, pushing those rebellious, uh, boundaries, which I don't even know if like drinking alcohol itself then was as frowned upon for those under ages as it is now.
But also it doesn't mean it wasn't, it wasn't illegal. It was. And also to that level of alcohol consumption, which is early signs that. You know, the way they do a good job of describing best character. Like she's a genius and she's troubled, right? She's got anger issues. She's got issues who wouldn't, you know, given where she's been from.
Right. And so sometimes when she lets it all out, you know, the inner, you know, the unsettled in kind of inner kind of hurt child or rebellious person in her wants to, wants to binge and see what her limits are and, and really express herself with, you know, drinking and dancing and just see where things go, you know, Hmm.
James: [00:20:27] And then she graduated high school was all done. She's done. Yay. Yeah, that was cool. I love it. I love Beth as a mom in this scene because she's like the only one clapping, so exciting, excited, and it's over, but we get through, we, we start to get closer to chess. Um, there was a little bit. Less chess, but more exciting chess in a weird way.
The second time I watched it, but I did need to ask you, so we learned that there's like three big matches, Mexico city, something else, and then they're going to 
Danny: [00:20:52] carry his championship, mentions 
James: [00:20:54] us championship. And then they're going to Paris for the Remy Valon. What is right 
Danny: [00:20:59] this? So as far as I know, that name is actually made up, um, I didn't know, she looked it up, but, um, 
James: [00:21:09] Dan has got a Google, please hold everybody.
Danny: [00:21:12] It's so funny as you start to type it. There's so many, um, the, uh, the Google autocompletes based on, based on like the, uh, The Queen's gambit are just hilarious. Right? Cause so many people are like looking into this stuff right now. Um, but the, uh, I'll, I'll put it this way. What I took out of it as most relevant is every one of those landmark cities were indeed homes of elite and regular chess events.
Right. Yeah. So I, that name is not a name of a famous chess tournament. And I'm, I, I could have just said that, but I was Googling here to make sure I was right. I'm pretty sure I'm right. But, but Paris was, was home regularly to elite events as was Mexico city. Um, and as was Moscow. And so they definitely nail like the landmark cities.
And that's kinda what I took out of it. Um, she, yeah, she mentioned the us championship, which is important because, you know, that's pretty much the whole subject of our next episode. We'll get into it episode five when it's there. But yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, as far as like, just getting the landmarks, correct, the city, I'm going to read here as you respond to that, but I'm pretty sure that there was no name actually.
Um, the, what you even said there, because I know chest databases and there was no, no, no event with players playing from that 
James: [00:22:26] name. Yeah, it was a fascinating scene because we, we do learn right now that she's about to go to two international tournaments. Right. Which I think is very impressive, 17 years old, going to Mexico city for the international.
But then it's also fascinating because Mrs. Wheatley gets really excited for Paris, but not so excited for Mexico city. Even though we learned that she's about to be really excited, but like, I, I guess I know that Mexico is the South of our border. Right. And it's not that far, but it's also very far from Lexington, Kentucky.
Like when I grew up in Ohio, I could never imagine going to Mexico. I was like so far away and they probably travel a similar distance. It's a little bit shorter to go to Mexico city than it is to Paris, but it's not that much different of a. Flight to be honest with you. Um, cause it's very far away to some extent, but I thought it was as any cause she's been talking about international child travel and like Mexico city is internet international.
Right. It's an international tournament. 
Danny: [00:23:26] Yeah. And I felt like maybe that was a weird way. They set up there. I have a couple. Not, no, not issues. I don't know the right to have issues, but there were a couple of things about like the care, the way they handled, like the, the mom's sort of white character in the episode that were a little questioning to me.
Yeah. Like you would think the butterflies would have hit when he, when she mentions Mexico city based on what ends up happening with, you know, their trip to Mexico, Mexico city, and her long lost kind of, uh, you know, pen pal lover. Right. And so. Manuel. Um, so yeah, it was just odd there. Right? And then the way the character develops later on, we won't spoiler this podcast.
We'll get to it, but I agree with you. That was odd. I think you could also argue that Paris is just. Paris is a sexy city, right? Um, I've never been to Paris. Uh, one of the European cities I've never been to. I know it's amazing, but we know what Paris represents in regards to like, just the way people talk about how to eat.
James: [00:24:18] Right. The love, 
Danny: [00:24:20] the love, the, the lover city. So, so I guess, I guess we can give it a pass on that, but yeah, it does get surprising the fact that they, right after the scene, they hop on a plane they're headed to Mexico city and all I'll let you take it from there. In terms of the, the bombshell that the mom drops about.
Manuel. 
James: [00:24:35] Yeah, well, I will say this is they get on a plane and it looks, you don't get to see any details about the plane. Cause you know, I like to invest Danny. 
Danny: [00:24:43] Yeah. Oh, I know how you investigate plays. 
James: [00:24:46] Looks like a very small jet by the way, which would make no sense going from Lexington, Kentucky all the way down to Mexico, unless this was a stopover, but then it was also weird because it looked like a smaller jet.
And they only showed it from behind, but it was a three by three Cedar, which wouldn't make any sense for a smaller jet, which would be a two by two Cedar. But the whole idea isn't make any sense. So I'm a little bit confused there, but yeah, she, she tells Beth that she's had this long. Pen pal man. Well that she's written back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and he's going to pick them up from the airport.
Randomly, never met this dude, but totally gonna do it. Um, and you know, you know, whatever, that's fine. It's, uh, it's Phantom. And, but on the plane, right. Um, we, we, one continue to see, um, More alcohol consumption. They throughout the entire episode, which leads up to some, some tragedy. Um, but later on. Um, but yeah, but you know, Manuel's there long, last pen pal never met.
And, and at some point, as you know, Mrs. Wheatley gives Beth is really nice watch to the biloba and it's a very expensive watch. Like today's, it'd be a few hundred dollars, which is not a cheap watch and. I think my overarching theme of this episode up to a point, which was, I really felt that the bond between Mrs Wheatley and Beth was really strong, like even in these scenes, like Beth is becoming, she's still annoyed at some point about it, but there's some strengths like, you know, um, to engrave this watch.
And it was really, really nice. Like, you know, her mom really wants to watch more chess has really been getting more involved in it. Um, and. There's some scenes later where Mrs. Wheelies playing the piano and just like, that's like really like, you know, connected. I felt really connected to her and then it was, um, it was, it was a kind of a weird scene and, and, um, you know, there in Mexico city, whatever, it doesn't matter at this point.
Danny: [00:26:42] I mean, I, I agree. And again, and I said, how Shauna felt after the episode, based on the tragedy we're getting to, but all just say like, Of all the episodes in the show. I mean, you know, we're, we're breaking this down. We're big fans, all that, I guess we're allowed to be critics like this episode was, was my least favorite.
I'll say that. And I'm going to say that again, not spoiling for you, but in an encouraging way, episodes five, six, and seven really won me back. Like I was very happy with where the show went and the ultimate kind of like. You know, whatever the experience is we get. So I'm not, I'm not going to say any more than that, but I just want to say like of the first three and then the fourth video, uh, video, sorry.
Uh, whatever episode. Right. Um, you know, being muddled. I, it was just, yeah, I agree. Like, I didn't really like how it ended. We'll get to too. And I felt like some, yeah, some of the, some of the dialogue there, it wasn't just the chess player in me that was upset. This is probably the episode of all seven that has the least amount of chess.
Uh, we're going to definitely get back into some more. Lots of fun in the next episode, but so I don't even know what to say. I mean, the things you were saying, I'll just say, I agree. I thought they were odd. I do have some notes about, um, you know, where are we at here? Um, I did make a note about the plane.
I just wanted to say that I really liked the line where right before she talks to Beth about Manuel and her excitement about Mexico city, she kind of says, what are you reading? And she says, Paul and structure analysis. And she says, well, that sounds exciting. Sarcastically. And Beth goes, it is. I just wanted to say, I love that dialogue as someone who also has always found Paul structures fascinating.
And I've even been made fun of that by my peers and things like that. Like Danny wrenches obsession with pawn structure, I have tons of videos on chess.com. Like literally, if you Google. Like pawn structure, chess videos like Danny rich. I have a ton I have like, and I've always been big about the concept of seeing the forest through the trees and chess, because what defines the best players at the high levels is always pawn played because they're the only pieces you can't move back.
And what that means is every, every weakness and every high level, like concept of chess is based around positional. You know, strategy, which is exposing what the ponds have given you and it's in any way. So I just love that because they continue to develop like what this young, aggressive American needs to jump level is Paul and structure chess.
She says it is fascinating. And I just had to say, I love that one, my heart, that line right there. 
James: [00:28:59] Love it is good too, because you know, when they get to the first match, which I want to there's, there's, they, they blend a lot of elements in between chess when things are happening, but like, Fascinating.
When we get to the very first match with Octavio, they say, cause a lot of this is all done. They say it in Spanish and it's translated. And Heather was like, give this Spanish is on point by the way. Um, you know, they say like she wins like basically all, all pawns, like it's all pawns. Like she came off of reading this book about and structures to basically destroying Octavia with all pawns.
But Mike and Matt show up, man, Mike and Matt stars of this episode, by the way, middle game, which. Funnily enough, this is the middle episode in the series, and we all know that the middle game. Sometimes isn't all that exciting, which may be why this episode, isn't all that exciting. Not to say that all middle games.
Aren't exciting, Danny. I'm just saying you're halfway through a match and you're like, okay, get it over with 
Danny: [00:29:52] I'm with you. I'm with you. I do. I did make a note here that Mike and Matt's appearance is a bit odd. And the reason I said that is because it's, it's almost like they had to have someone for Beth.
To dialogue, her thought process with, right. Like in the lobby, you know, before the chess games, like there's the scene where she comes out of the elevator, right before the game with bore, God will get you. And Mike and Matt just like walk up behind her, kind of like, she has someone there with her, which I thought was cool.
It's totally movie magic and the drama. But I can say like in an elite event in Mexico city or Havana, Cuba, like were some of the events South of the border in the U S took place during that time Buenos Aires, like they. They would not have been there. I will say that Mike and Matt did not belong in Mexico city.
Yeah. Even they 
James: [00:30:38] even say they're like, they're like all the key, like, you know, Matt loves a beating or whatever microphone is playing because only one of them was playing. Um, and, and it's crazy because of this very first match, by the way, which is against Octavio, Marchenko who she destroys. Um, He was an international grand master, not to be confused with an international master and I had to 
Danny: [00:30:57] get back.
Yeah. I made that. I made that note, that sheet that they use the term. Right. And I love that because you and I had just spent so much time talking about it. Um, in the last episode that the actual title of grand masters international Grandmaster, and she says it there to add the correct emphasis on the wrong syllable.
I loved it. 
James: [00:31:13] Nope. But how would she get paired up against an international grandmasters? Because. In this tournament. Is it more of the traditional tournament? Like you were talking about where like the, one of the top players would play one of the lower players? 
Danny: [00:31:25] So this, that note is exactly why Mike and Matt didn't belong there because she was invited to play in Mexico city and an invitational.
Would would imply that people are being brought in from all over the world. Like what happens in, in Patty later on in the show? Like what eventually happens in Moscow in the end, like international invitationals would be for grandmasters or up and coming up income or talented players. Right. That is.
What's about to take place and taught us, taught to steel and bike and Z, which is in the Netherlands. It's an event that we've partnered with and broadcast for the, for us five years or so. Um, and it's one of the longest lasting kind of elite events. Um, and so the field is a combination of Magnus, Carlsen, and each Geary, uh, you know, top world's elite, and then a few.
Um, like players who are Dutch right local to the organizers who don't necessarily belong in that level, but they're given the opportunity, right? This is a very typical sort of way. That these elite events will run. I'm an organizer who's engaging. And whether it's for local philanthropic reasons, whether there's a brand being promoted, whatever it is, that's exactly how it would be.
So even Beth Harman's invite is a bit of a stretch to being an event with bore golf. Right. This guy is the world champion and number one, and we know that while she did just tie for the U S championship, at this point, she's still talking about the international and grand master titles. Like, like there's something she aspires to be.
Right. So I kind of made a note of this because we can assume at this point, Beth Harman is not an IAM or a GM yet, meaning she's not an international or grand master. And I think I'm right about that. And if that's the case, That part of it is just odd. You would never see a, a young up-and-coming talented American in an event with the rainy world champion, but we're sort of looking past that.
Cause you know, we're sort of seeing that Beth Harman is not your normal prodigy. She's like a Bobby Fisher and she's been given this opportunity. Um, she would be playing grandmasters and international grandmasters, but Mike and Matt would not be at an event like this. 
James: [00:33:33] Gotcha. Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense.
I could see them going just to like watch, but it doesn't make sense for them to be playing in, in any regards. Um, 
Danny: [00:33:41] I want to say before we move on to this, cause while we've been chatting here, I've been listening to every word paying attention, but just doing my own research. I'm. I'm actually Sue. So I took for granted how important Mexico city is because Mexico city, um, and in future events, did, did host major events.
And eventually you have the Lenore's tournament, which was played in both Spain and Mexico, like a tr a rare tournament, a super tournament throughout the nineties that, um, that. Like basically had players travel from like Spain and Mexico. Very cool. But, but actually at this time, like the biggest events that were South of the border were in Havana, Cuba, which were homages to the great and, uh, the great end, late Jose Rowe, a cup of Blanca.
Um, you had, uh, more Del Plata, which, uh, of course is a in Argentina. Um, and so they're, they're actually work events in Mexico city in the sixties. There were events in South America. Havana being the most relative one. And so I looking at the consistency of the schedule, I feel like Havana. Uh, there was also Buenos Aires in 64, which carries in Patricia one.
So I'm looking at it and remembering like Mexico city while I did eventually become a city of some major events at this time was not totally, would not be totally fair to say that. Likewise, with, with Perry, actually again, Paris held some major events, but you were more likely to see events, not just in Moscow, but in Amsterdam.
Um, You know, I was looking at it in Sochi, of course, Russia or Siberia. Um, you know, anyways, interesting. Sorry, just dropped there. So I feel like they nailed it, but I guess I gave them, I mean, why can't Z actually started in 68, which is now one of the longest running, um, You know, basically elite events in the world.
And again, it's coming up in January, but, but again, I guess, I guess Perry would be a little bit of a stretch. So I gave them the benefit of the doubt there. I think it's fine. They do hit the nail on the head overall, but, but there's no actual, there was no super tournament in Paris in the sixties. And, um, even though there were many in the surrounding European cities, Eastern Europe and that stuff.
So anyway, I just have to say that I got to correct myself when I'm wrong. There you go. 
James: [00:35:42] Well, and, you know, as fascinating cause also like, you know, the Aztec palace where they, where this was taking place in, in Mexico city, like doesn't exist. Obviously there is a show, right? Not everything exists here, but the, I will say that the hotel was beautiful and that hotel is actually a real hotel is in Berlin.
That's okay. 
Danny: [00:35:59] There you go. All right. So look at us. We're, we're learning so much together. 
James: [00:36:03] A few things here, Danny. Um, Mike, Matt, her mom really pushed her to relax the day before the match. She's cramming. I have the written down on here. Danny, what do you do the day before a match? Do you relax? Do you cram?
Are you, Oh, you know, polishing your, your, um, openings, your end games. What are you doing? 
Danny: [00:36:22] So love that you asked that question. It was also one of the things that I noted. I felt like the dialogue that took place between the mom and Beth was actually. Was actually kind of cool. And I had, I had both like applause, a little golf club going on watching, and then also some, you know, some like, huh, that's interesting.
But, so where does that premise start? Right? It starts with the mom saying. You know, you don't always have to work so hard and she's like, I'm playing these guys if I lose. Right. That's coming out of our capital. Right. So she's kind of threatening them on where she lives, which is in the pocket book. Right.
Like, Hey, let's not forget on the paycheck here. And then she's like, yeah, but I've seen that you, and they call you an intuitive player, do they not? Right. And, and Beth is like, yeah. Right. But an intuitive player while, um, Kind of an interesting way to refer to it is definitely something that you would refer to different people as like someone who typically, uh, trust their intuition.
And isn't, isn't bringing a ton of technical, theoretical knowledge, at least at that stage. How could she she's 17 years old. Um, and she was kinda trying to say like, look. From what I understand about you, Beth, you're at your best when you're just relaxed, when you're trusting yourself, trusting your intuition, and let's not overthink this.
So I, I think that all that was actually. Very good and interesting advice. And we ended up finding out as Beth, um, kind of starts wandering the city. She eventually runs into bore golf and his wife and their family at the, at the zoo right later on. So we see the board golf as well as enjoying kind of the rest day and not overbooking or overclaiming in the books.
Um, but also I felt like there was a little bit of a, um, You know of a, of a thing that says like, Hey, if you relax, that's when you're at your best. And I actually made notes of the, you know, all the, all the quotes I have, you know, of like, you know, the harder I work, the luckier I get, right? Like Lee Trevino and golf.
Right. I think that he said it further, there are all kinds of phrases that, that like imply you work hard so that when you're in front of. You know, the, the pressure filled moment, whether that's on camera or at the board, you can relax right. And trust yourself. Right. So I don't really agree that like walking away from what, you know, you need to focus on is an ultimate recipe towards success.
Right? I mean, working hard allows you to relax sometimes. Cause you feel like you put in your time now you can trust your instincts and let it happen. Right. So there's a lot of things about that. And then you see that the mom, the moments can say one of the themes throughout this is the mom has consistently.
What I would say, like a slippery slope, almost like, I don't want to say the mom is a bad influence, but if we go back to like episode three, like giving alcohol and then here, like she kind of gets Beth to kind of lose, loosen up, but also lose her focus a little bit. And we know that Beth then kind of engages in a few, too many alcoholic beverages as she's wandering Mexico city.
Right. So, so I don't even know, like I both, I both applauded the advice. I think that a good coach will get. Get someone to appreciate. There's nothing you could study this day. That's going to win you the match tomorrow. I agree with that. And you should never like convince yourself that you're going to change the game plan a day before a match and be at your best for sure.
You have to just trust. What's gotten you there. But at the same time, like I don't always know that the mom is the best influence on Beth and her and her ambitions to just do what she knows she needs to do, which is become a better technical player. So she can compete with these guys. 
James: [00:39:39] Yeah. And you know, her mom and her mom doesn't know who she's up against.
Right. She doesn't understand that she's about to go up against a Grandmaster and against Bhargava because he understands that if I don't think she understands the difficulty and the talent of these players, even though Beth has been crushing it, she sort of, I was like, Hey, you're in invincible. Like you can, you're the best out there.
You're, you know, but, but she's not the best out there. And it's, it's clear. Right. And she has a lot to learn and, and, you know, we see this flashback by the way, too, which I thought was very. Of the moment from Mr. Scheibel he fly, this is a brand new scene out of nowhere where he's like, you know, your two sides of the coin.
There's much anger in you, a star Wars reference. 
Danny: [00:40:17] I know, I love that. I have the same. Don't look, go ahead, go ahead. 
James: [00:40:20] He goes, you know, your tie it's, you know, this is your time in the sun, but for how long, right. And we actually see that later on in one of the other matches sort of talking about a younger prodigy from Russia, but this flashback is very pretty.
She continuously gets flashbacks of Mr. Scheibel. Um, in many of the episodes here, but yeah, I love that. Like, there's, there's much anger in you, you know, it's two sides of the coin. Like, you know, well, you may be basking in the sun right now, but for how long. Right. And, and to me that is like, Hey, you really need to focus clamper down.
But also realize that while you may be on this huge incline forever people, you're not there forever. Right. Like, right. For however good right now, the players of, of Magnus Carlsen and, uh, Hikaru Nakamura are like 30 years from now. They still meet Bay on top. Right. But there's going to be new younger players, which we see in this episode, by the way that maybe it'd be taking your, your spotlight.
Danny: [00:41:18] Well, there's a lot of dialogue there. And energy happens with the young, uh, grief as we'll discuss. And so I want to save my. My zinger for what I feel the overarching message and theme of the show was for later, because you already kind of asked that when the mother taught, when, when Beth calls her mom, before her, you know, her big, you know, the, everything that happens there that night and, you know, with the boy and everything and the schmuck, sorry, not the boy.
Um, I think there's an overarching theme to this middle game episode that is cemented by how it ends and by, um, Some of the conversations that took place here with the mom, pushing her to do more than just study before a big chess tournament and stuff. And so on that note, I actually do feel like the episode delivered.
And that was kind of my big zinger takeaway at the end. I was like, here's what the message is. He's trying to, that the writing is trying to say the director is trying to say, and that, that it's setting the tone for the back half of Beth of the show. Not best life because yeah. You know, she's still so young, but so I I'm with you.
And I think, I think it's, it's both like really good. And I think because of the way they end it, I'm going to give them like, you know, the big thumbs up at the end, because I feel like the message gets delivered. But yeah, there's also some just kind of interesting dialogue there, like who knows what, you know, what the best really would have been for Beth Harmon at that age.
Yeah, 
James: [00:42:33] I think she, yeah, the overarching for me would be sometimes you gotta stop and smell the roses, right? 
Danny: [00:42:37] Yeah, exactly. 
James: [00:42:38] All right. So let's get really quick outta here. First match. Like we said, Octavia Merenko, um, finished in 31, moves with a mating net at the end. Um, now here's a funny part that I wrote down for this is she says, you know, that there's, you know, the Langer language barrier, right.
They don't speak the same language. Um, and I thought this was where I wanted to ask you about that in your matches. Um, but also the very first match Merenko comes over and like whispers in her ear and then sits down. It's like very weird. You catch that. 
Danny: [00:43:08] Yeah. It was odd and kind of out of place, it could happen, but it was, I dunno, I, I didn't, I all, I noted about both that and, um, kind of the way they described that she beats him with Paula's.
Right. Um, it's just, I don't know. I mean, I think they're just, it's just adding the chest to it, adding to the, you know, the development of, you know, Her character and that again, she's consistently socially a little bit, feel it feeling a little socially out of place. That's how she feels a lot of the time.
Now she's out of place because she doesn't speak a language of these guys. Um, and then this guy whispers in her ear kind of like making her maybe feel further isolated, maybe it was something sort of sexy, sexist. You don't know. Right. It was awkward. And again, they don't really get into it other than she destroys him.
With a lot of politics, regardless. 
James: [00:43:54] We do talk about that. Right. I mean, in this time era, you know, Heather was asking me a lot about this and other were, you know, female chess players, like in the show, we see that it's a minority. And, um, especially in this time era and, and you're right. I mean, would that would Merenko have done that too.
Um,  I can guarantee you not right. Again, I think her being who she is, a young woman coming up in chess in this era, there is some, there is some disrespect, there's not the respect given yeah. That she's earning through this. Um, but we then see, uh, uh, we, we learn, uh, Queen's gambit decline, destroying Diedrich from, uh, Austria.
And this is one of my favorite, um, There's a lot of times when Beth destroys, um, chess players, but this was a good one because he looked 
Danny: [00:44:45] shook. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Like that was really funny. It's like his face it's like he's seen a ghost and then been slapped by the ghost. So that was great. And I think that's kind of, I almost rolled the first one with, you know, regardless of the, kind of the sexist ear whispering.
Why would you do that to your opponent? That's not a thing. I've never had someone come up and whisper in my ear before they sit down in front of me, you know? Anyway, so, yeah. Um, let's, 
James: [00:45:08] let's have 
Danny: [00:45:09] a good game, Danny. 
James: [00:45:11] What are you doing today? 
Danny: [00:45:14] So, yeah, I just kind of wrapped them both into like, she set the tone for her prowess right.
In the event. And now she beats a Diedrich and. Beats Diedrich nicely. He's he's he will never be the same after that. That's what, like his career went downhill. That's what happened. 
James: [00:45:31] He walks away with his tail between his legs. He just like leaves the table. And it's good with time. Yeah. Now let's get, we get to some chess finally, because those first two games, we don't see anything.
There's nothing to map on it. Um, and we get right into the next match, which is fantastic, by the way, this is one of, um, Very fascinating games of chess because Beth has put in, um, a new position against Georgie Gorev from Russia or young Russian kid who 
Danny: [00:46:01] it's green 
James: [00:46:02] gear gear. 
Danny: [00:46:04] Yeah. 
James: [00:46:05] I don't say it 
Danny: [00:46:07] grieve.
Okay, perfect. So you go 
James: [00:46:10] dirty grave. Uh, so this is great. Um, he does speak some English, so there is he's able to talk or whatever this may be the first time she's played a younger opponent, right? And this is a fascinating match by the way. Uh, we get, uh, Sicilian of course, this is open Sicilian on the board right away in the show notes, by the way, for this and the Borg match, we have the openings and the end game.
For both of these. So you can follow along at home. I personally did the openings, um, for both of these games 
Danny: [00:46:44] and I love reviewing them, especially cause you consistently do an amazing job 
James: [00:46:48] because they skip moves and I have to figure it out on my mind. And 
Danny: [00:46:50] I think ed you're and again, you're not a professional chess player, James, but you are acting like one on this show.
Young man, you are crushing it. 
James: [00:46:59] At least this is a pretty standard opening. We've seen this a many, a times from bath. We see. Uh, we, you know, we see us as silly and open, uh, civilian defense 
Danny: [00:47:10] and she's white and this one, she also plays the Sicilian as we know as black and many times, but yes, you're right. Um, so yeah, she's white in this case and, uh, you nailed the opening.
James: [00:47:20] Yeah. She takes her nights out. And then we see a French variation with him taking a night 93 93 night King three. What is it? Something 
Danny: [00:47:29] well, 
James: [00:47:30] Paul pawn King, the three, six. 
Danny: [00:47:35] Poland is Quanda King for, we get full-on to Queen's Bishop for that's a Sicilian. This is . And then after night of free, we get . So that's pawn to King three, it or panicking six, depending on the board orientation.
Um, and after  we'll just go with what the algebraic is. Yeah, we have this, so it's called a French variation early with e-cigs, but this is actually a. Yeah, and then they get it right. If you get to move forward, they call it a time off. So this is a pulse or time model of kind of Sicilian and that's defined by the  structure versus on move to, for example, if you back up our eager chess listeners, the move Knight to C6, we will see Beth plays later on when she's black against bore golf.
So on move to she plays. Knight to Queens, Bishop three or night to see six later, I'm also DCX pawn to queen three or D six is a move that's very popular. So, so Aesics is called the French version of first. And that's because our ETO is designed to really map out everything under the sun. But really once D four takes takes nicey six is played.
We are in a time on-off, uh, Sicilian and, uh, And the main line that's played here. Um, I believe this actually is a famous game, but I didn't look it up ahead of time, but we've got a Chevron in-kind structure. Once you have pulls on  for black. If you go to like move six after 90 of six for black, this is a feminine GYN pawn structure.
Um, Shevon again is also a name of a tournament style where all play all, um, in like a kind of a team format. Well, you know, I don't know if that ever actually comes up in this show, but, um, Chevron again, here is the opening. She plays a very aggressive line with , uh, the Matana which attack, which is what  is.
Um, you can play so many of the moves there. I do not play the F four ideas, uh, and he plays the, this is a little bit odd in terms of. I actually think this isn't exactly the move or I'm sorry, buddy. I just realized going through it. You missed one boat, but that's okay. I love you. Hey, don't get mad. Don't get mad.
Okay. 
James: [00:49:33] I knew I was close. I mean, I got the board to where it was, but I might've been off 
Danny: [00:49:37] after this. The only thing you miss as Bishop E seven first, before night chief, or because at night G4 has played on moves seven. There she would take it with her queen. It's still on . So in, in the, in the game, actually, Bishop  played then queen D two from Beth then night, G four from, um, from our buddy.
Um, get us good. Um, and then, uh, so after, after queen to D to, um, Nigee for you get Bishop .  played by black Knight F three and then the capture on E three and the capture on F four. So the final position is just like what you had except there's moves Bishop  and Bishop  thrown in for both white and black.
James: [00:50:24] Oh, I see. Got it. That makes sense. Yeah. I was very close in it. We'll put the final updated one as we walk through, we always do that because this is fun as Danny gives me. Um, it's hard because you know, If you are really into this Chester trying to watch it and they skip random moves. And, and at the same time, I wish that chess.com would also put the one through eight reversed on the other side.
That would also be very helpful. 
Danny: [00:50:46] Okay. That's good to know. Actually, 
James: [00:50:48] I was the board because when you say, for example, if I have white on the bottom, Right. You know, and you're like, Oh, you know, pawn, you know, eat three or whatever is actually six on the board. Right. It's it's, you know, maybe I can tap on it or something, change it.
But it's like, you know, when you're in the Explorer, you can only see one or you're shifting in your mind. But, um, this was, uh, a fascinating match in general. And I think that that good ed was also fascinating. Right? He's super young. He's very respectful. He's like, you know, it's an honor. It's an honor.
Miss Ms. Harmon, right? He's like so excited to play against her. The, the, the play is fast by the 
Danny: [00:51:23] way. Um, yeah, no, they, yeah, they play super fast. I made a note of that here, which was interesting. It was like a young guy kind of like trying to prove himself to Beth Harman there. Um, yeah, go ahead. 
James: [00:51:34] And then we fast forward five hours, Danny.
And, um, this is fascinating because this has never happened. Um, get up. He goes, you know, you know, we've played for five hours, we should adjourn. And I was like, Holy crap. Like I've never, I have no idea what's about to happen. And, um, they have to Mark. She has to seal a move. Danny might explain one, by the way, this is when Heather stopped.
And she said, wait a second. How did it go? Five hours? Because I thought you told me that Danny discussed to two hours. 40 moves. 
Danny: [00:52:09] Yeah. But, but it's two hours for both sides. So that's, that's already four hours total possible, but five hours. Yeah. And they're playing past the 40 move Mark, which means they've been given additional allotted time.
So a very, very typical time, uh, Uh, time control is two hours for each side to start. So that's already four hours of potential total time, and you have to make 40 moves. Total, sometimes 50 moves, uh, depending on the time, but you'll have 50 moves with sometimes more standard then, but you got 40 or 50 moves within those first two hours.
But if you reach that you reach the, the 40 or 50 Mubarak. Each side gets sometimes either an additional half an hour each or sometimes an additional full hour, um, tournaments in the nineties when I was up and coming and, and in the early two thousands, it was the most popular time for, in the world was 40 moves in two hours, sun death, 60.
So that meant a total possible game of six hours long. Wow. But that was because in the sudden death era, our era, there were no adjournments. So back then a more typical time control would be 40 or 50 moves in two hours. Plus 60 minutes for the remaining moves. And at any moment, someone can adjourn the game.
James: [00:53:18] Well, what happens before you go to a German? What happens if you don't reach the amount of moves required? Is it a draw to someone who 
Danny: [00:53:26] signed and you lose on time, you lose on time? So, so sometimes in fact, the most common. Uh, amount of time, a game would last is probably roughly a three and a half to three hour and 45 minute Mark, because most games, someone would win right around move 40.
So one side's used 90 minutes and they're leading the other side has used almost all of their four hours cause they've been getting outplayed. So they typically are taking a little more time to think about it. They're under time pressure and our game is ending on move 37 38. Right. This is a very, very common.
Pace of a game and the type of result you would see, uh, this game is, you know, and what they're depicting is a very accurate, very long struggle, right? This is a, this is a, um, a really deep game. Um, and, uh, I believe we have it noted in our thing as, um, I think it was Yucca vanco Stellwagen um, Yes. Um, so Yucca vanco still is still wagon is a, is an actual game.
Um, and, uh, that's the position they are referencing with the eventual tactic that we see Bethel on court after a German with this age five. But I don't want to skip past any of your questions about our German before we get into that. 
James: [00:54:40] How w how does this a German work? There's some stipulations here.
This is fascinating because. The, it just stops at the end of the day. He's, you know, they're, they kind of agreed to stop play for the day. And I, at least at what my mind is this, okay, this is what, how I explained to German to Heather. Then you can correct me because she's like, well, what it was about happening here.
And I said, I think what happened here is they've agreed that they're going to take a break, go to the next day. Cause it played for so long. They're still within their time limits. They've played enough moves. Beth has to decide what her next move is. So she cannot like study the board and decide something.
Danny: [00:55:16] Yeah. I doubt the best move. Yeah, exactly. That's a hundred percent correct. So you see him, the, the tournament project director come over the arbiter and she has to seal her move. Um, so the only. So I had a couple of notes that are more like, you know, bringing my however lipstick is the chess of this. So first of all, we explained the time controls totally legit.
We explained that a game would be adjourned after about the five-hour Mark. This is also totally legit. The only thing that's not legit is that the young guy is kind of like, Hey. You know, we've been playing for five hours. Can we call it a break? Like that's, that's not a normal thing you would ever say to your boat.
And, um, although he's just like a kid and he's exhausted. Um, and then also the fact that he played the move, uh, King HH so quickly is actually the move that. That in theory kind of loses the game. Now, now black is black is in big trouble, but Bishop to  blocking the check by the Rook would have not allow allowed the H five tactic that, that Beth plays.
Um, now white is still in control because of, uh, the Rook on the seventh rank, but the game would have been much more dynamic. And without turning this into a long kind of, you know, crazy, crazy chess lecture, but King H Jade. As it is actually kind of accurate and, and both, um, it needs to be noted. King.
Ashay played out of exhaustion by our young 13 year old is the move that kind of loses the game in a forcing manner when Beth fines and seals the moot H five at the break. 
James: [00:56:42] Yeah, she, she, um, she put, he puts, he puts his King in the corner, you know? Yeah. I'm just not saying that's the best move, but this is fascinating to me because Beth knows her next move.
He doesn't know her move. But th what this allows Beth to do is study the chess board. You know, she's annoyed. I think at the end of this day, she's super annoyed. He goes, and he asks about like drive-in movies and Elvis dyad, all of a sudden it's super cute. And Beth is just not having anything to do with it because she just played chess for five hours.
She's super annoyed that she hasn't crushed this kid by now, right. Is so young. And, um, you know, but I think she one, she has. The advantage, right? If we look@thechest.com analysis, this podcast brought to you by chess.com, chest.com, where you can play chess, um, online, uh, that's the advertisement. So she's already winning in, in this point, according to the analysis board, she's already winning and she knows her next move.
Uh, which surprisingly enough, H five, this move, you can click on the show notes, brings her down in the analysis here, by the way, it brings it not 50 50, but she's still winning. Even with this move, it brings it down a little bit, but she has all night to study the board, which I think is a German is kind of crazy because whoever's about to play the next movie.
If they can memorize the chess board. Right. Which it's on the demo board or whatever. So it's not that hard. She just stayed up all night and just like. Memorize and figure out everything in general, which I think is 
Danny: [00:58:15] crazy. Yeah. I mean, and so what was your thought about, I want to give my thoughts about it.
So what you said is like, so she plays age five, and even though it initially brings her down, I will say the longer you give the engine to think it actually goes back up, it is a, it is a brilliant pawn sacrifice, which is kind of why, um, the young GRI have missed it. Um, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna assume that people, this won't have clicked the analysis link by James and we're looking at the position with the black King on H eight and go ahead and play the move pond to H five on the board.
The whole idea is. When black takes this pawn, you would then play G six, which threatens checkmate with Rook H seven because the Bishop on D five guards, the G eight escape square for the black King. And so this pawn sack is kind of the key and, um, and there's really. Th there's really no way out of it.
Eventually what happens here is black has to part ways with a piece and the game is the game is over. So H five actually, um, even though initially computers often sort of go like, no, don't give up material, but if you give it time to think it's actually the brilliant tactic that was played in the, in the real life game, um, uh, between Yaka Benko and, and Stellwagen um, so, and then the way that she kind of acts right.
Cause that's where, that's what we're talking about now. Right? So she plays H five. He knows he's in trouble, but she basically. Is playing the game in her head, the rest of the time, getting up from the board, kind of wandering around and only coming back to the board when she hears him made a move and she hears that big wooden clock tick.
Right. Um, so how realistic did that seem to you as a non chest flare? Before I respond, 
James: [00:59:51] it was, it was sassy and I loved it. It was great film because. It really showed that Beth knew she was winning, that she was going to win. She's played out every scenario in her mind. She knew what he was going to play.
However, um, if I was him, I would've been pissed. I don't know because she, there was one point where she's like really far away looking at him. There's another point where she's like tapping her foot nonstop. I don't know if it was to get under his skin. Um, I don't think it's realistic at this level of play necessarily.
I do think it is realistic that maybe. After five hours or four hours, someone might get up and use the, you know, do something, but after the first move get up, I don't know. I think that that was kind of a, I think it was a tactic and if it was attacked, it was a very good tactic 
Danny: [01:00:38] too. Okay, cool. I love that.
First of all, it was sassy, it was good drama. And it clearly shows, you know, that she, you know, she knows exactly what's going on in this kid is kind of out of his league. Right. And now you kind of see the kid kind of squirm and he's kind of cute, right. Kind of frustrated with her. Right. But now I'm going to say this, not only is it all those things which makes for good TV and good drama for someone to kind of just outplay the person.
It's actually not that unrealistic now. It's not the most, what, what Beth did was just not the most ethical thing in that. Um, It kind of shows like she's impatient and kind of tired of the young kid and. Uh, but that does happen to tournaments where like someone is just like beating the other person and basically spends very little time at the board.
And the tapping of the foot is, is definitely like kind of obnoxious and unethical by Beth it's something a young player would do, but you would like, you would never see bore Goff do. Right. But even in a real chess tournament, like that's something a young player would do actually. And like, that's something that, you know, I didn't find the scene unrealistic in terms of chess at all.
And Shauna asked me the same thing and she's been determined, so she knows you're allowed to walk around and she's watched me play super long games where she can come in and observe, but she was like, well, someone ever do that to someone like that, an elite event, I was like, A young player, like, yes. And then they would be like quickly, like basically talked to by the old school people.
It's the kind of thing, like in baseball, you would get, you would get a pitch thrown at you the next time you come to the plate, right? It's like someone like, you know, trotting a little too slowly around the bases and like bragging about the home run. And the next time you come up, like you get a pitch thrown at you right now.
I'm not saying that that's not good and not safe. And please stop throwing 95 mile an hour fastballs at people's heads. It's not a good thing, but the, but that's, um, It's actually very realistic. And the fact that it kind of gets under his skin is also like a plus, you know, there is a bit of chess that I think people don't always know about that is a bit of a mind game and kind of an athletic sport in the sense of your physical presence can sometimes intimidate someone.
Right. And Gary Kasparov was actually very, very well known for, for being an intimidating presence for his opponents. And, um, No, Gary's never going to listen to this podcast. So I don't care. I mean, there's also a lot of conversation that people, you know, basically thought he was a jerk at the board and that he was Gary Kasparov was the most dominant figure throughout the eighties and into the early two thousands, you know, many, are you still the goat?
Right? A lot of people say Magnus Carlsen has not surpassed Gary in terms of the greatest of all time. And, and I don't know that I disagree. Gary's Gary's dominance of his generation. Is still something that, um, just incredible. Right. But, but Gary was also known, like there were rumors that Gary like would kick his opponents under the table, like accidentally.
Right. But, but, or not. Right. Or he was always known for like making moves and like screwing the piece into the board. Like you make a move and it was going to be like screws it in a few times and then hits the clock or, um, like staring down his opponents, even on his turn. Like Gary was basically. Gary was a fricking bad-ass, right.
Like at the board and he was intimidating and he, and so again, there are players who have said that they really didn't feel like that was the ethical and correct thing to do. And there were other players like that would argue, like, look. Like chess may be known as a passive sport, but it's a sport where like I'm there to dominate you and you're going to dominate me and I don't give a shit.
Oh wait. I almost said the S word, I guess we're allowed occurs. It's an, I don't give a bleep what you think about me. And, and now at the same time, if you ever do something consistently to like bother your opponent. For example, if the young gree of had called an arbiter and said, will you please tell her to stop tapping her foot?
The Arbor would surely side with grieve, like not Beth, right. What she was doing. If it hadn't been called on her. Would have been like, Hey, you're being obnoxious, but very often people will do this to you and you won't call it on them because you don't want to show like weakness. Right? So what you do is your job is to ignore them and focus through the distraction.
So I really liked this whole thing. And you can tell them my voice and passionate to talk about it. Cause there's a lot about like a physical, the physical presence, the physical things that take place within like a chess tournament that like don't get talked about. And I don't even think about it that much anymore.
'cause I, I want, I got so used to it playing in those types of tournaments. And now, now I don't even, you know, I don't play in world elite events anymore, but, but that's, you know, that's not totally unrealistic and unreasonable that, that, like, you know, the top, there are top players who are active now. I won't say there are reputations of some that people don't enjoy playing and more than others.
Right. And there are, um, There are stories like I already was very directed up the Kasparov stories of him being a guide. It was just intimidating, AAF and was known for doing some stuff, you know, Fisher Fisher in the, in the sixties and in his world championship match. There's a lot of famous stories. I don't know if anyone ever saw pawn sacrifice.
Did you see pawn sacrifice with Toby Maguire? 
James: [01:05:35] Oh, I know I have not, but, um, I've been thinking about our season three. But blonde already. And I think we may do chess movie breakdowns, by the way. That's what I've been thinking. I didn't tell you. 
Danny: [01:05:45] Oh, sweet. Well, no, the support and sacrifice is that, I mean, that'll, I won't say I'll save it because I've seen it and whatever, but when they get into the actual match that goes down between Fischer and Spassky, which is played by Toby McGuire and loved Schreiber in 1972 in Reykjavik, Iceland, they do a fantastic job of really bringing to life.
The mental battleground that was taking place and Fisher like demanding things and Spassky denying them and complaining about the lighting and the chairs, like this kind of stuff happened. So, all right. I digress we'll come back. But my point is, it's not that unreasonable, even if it's not the most ethical thing to do, it's also something that happens more often than you would think.
James: [01:06:24] Gotcha. Gotcha. That's fast. I mean, it's a fascinating insight and I, you know, and I think that, that we actually see a little bit later. Um, during the Borgata golf, like someone takes a photo and the arbiter goes on, like shuts it down. Right. It's similar in golf too, by the way, like golf. I'm a, I was a golfer back in the day.
And you know, if you have, if you have people that are, you know, watching or doing other things like you arbiter will kind of come around and do stuff. Now I will say this though, the checkup Inco, uh, Stellwagen match to get to the position in which we get to in the show notes of this match. Is on play 42, right.
So we can, I'm not going to say it took the same amount of moves, but are we looking at somewhere around 40 ish moves? And if so, does that even make sense for the five-hour Mark? I mean, it's kind of, kind of weird. I will say. 
Danny: [01:07:11] I think, I think it can make sense in the sense of, so if we go with the time patrol, I said 40 moves in two hours.
It's not crazy to believe that sometimes you would spend a significant amount of time, like right after time control, because you get more time. So for example, very commonly, you know, there've been struggling. Yeah. We're both under time pressure. We've both used three hours and fee or an hour and 55 minutes.
Like we barely make time control and move forward. Now we get this extra hour each a lot of times people will slow down and really think through, um, you know, what the next, what the next few moves are. Um, and, um, And so again, I think, I think tit for tat whatever, but no, I don't think it's unrealistic. And I think, I think they did a pretty good job there.
James: [01:07:58] Do you know the next moves of best plays H five? We don't see the board. Do you know in your mind, how will she beat him? If you were to walk this out? 
Danny: [01:08:07] So she, she played H five. There's actually a great video by, um, Danny King. Who's a friend of mine and, uh, give a shout out to his YouTube channel. He breaks down the whole, the whole Yaka Vinco Stellwagen game, um, from that position.
But I guess for our podcast, I'll say that. Yeah. Again, after, after H five it's. I don't wanna say easily winning, but it's very straightforward. Like black is in big trouble. And again, the point is because you're getting a force pass pawn with this pond sack, no matter how black takes it, the King on HCA gets in a mating net and black has to start giving a material.
Um, so I think it goes on longer. Uh, this was the note I made. I'll say this, it goes on longer than they. Then they really do adjust this to, with her, like walking around because they're more focused on the drama of her intimidating him. But if you remember, she walks back to the board, like how many times?
What? Three, three, four, three times. Okay. So you made it and I can tell you many more moves than three moves were played in this game. 
James: [01:09:04] Literally. I was like, Oh wait. Yeah. I was like, Oh, maybe she puts the, you know, No night, uh, the Rook up it's like, and then I was like, okay, but then 
Danny: [01:09:12] what's happening the final position.
They flashed the final position and you can see it's like way down the road, right? Like a lot of things that come off the board. In fact, um, I can even set up the final position for our, for our, um, everybody yet, but I'll save it for, uh, our, our viewers who want to see it. As far as Y uh, Stellwagen or GRI have resigns, and it is easily 15 moves later.
So they don't, they don't really do that accurately, but it's, it's not super relevant. I think it's just caught up in the emotions of the moment. And, um, she beats him, but, but no, they don't. The game is not over in three moves. 
James: [01:09:51] Gotcha. Yeah. And he resigns in the traditional, um, in the traditional old fashioned way.
Knocks over his King in general. This is great because bath at this point has brought herself back together. She's realizing, Hey, you know, this kid at some point was one of the hardest matches I've played. She acknowledges that even though I think it's a lie to make him feel okay about it. She says, you know, you're the best I've ever played, which I don't think that's true.
Um, maybe it is, maybe it's not. I feel like she just said that to say that because. You know, she's like, you know, I've never seen been to the drive-ins and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff kind of like, you know, his personal again. But then he's like talking about that. He wants to be world champion and BOLO wall by 16.
And she's like, but then, but then what, and then when he's like, I don't understand, I let him, I don't understand how Heather stop me. She was like, well, what is going on in Russia and chess? And this time I like to me talking to Danny. It was a very different shift. Right? I think that in Russia and correct me if I'm wrong.
When we talk about the Russia sixties, fifties, seventies, I feel as though it was like, Russia was the best at the thing right there, the tops in the world, but they literally seek down the players and hand-crafted them to be the best players in the world compared to America, which is like, Hey, You might be good, but you're going to have to fend for yourself to the top.
Right? It's not like the Olympics in the way that, like, to me, it was chess was like the Olympics in Russia compared to chess and America wasn't that way, or nor have, I don't know if it ever has been in 
Danny: [01:11:27] a way, uh, so totally accurate. And they do a great job of kind of, um, you know, depicting that. And, you know, remember that the Soviet union was, uh, You know, a world power.
It's not, not just Russia, right? Yeah. Yes. And the only reason I they're finding that is because it's, um, well, one it's, it's a very important storyline as we get into the, um, you know, the parts with  and we talk about the KGB being with him in this episode, I've got notes on that. It's the Soviet union was obviously a massive, you know, amount of now like multiple countries and States.
Right? So like, you know, I mean, Entire Eastern Europe, right. It wasn't just Russia. You're talking a lot, you know? So, uh, and yeah, it, it w I wouldn't say it's exactly like, Oh my God, a hero was born and they show up and they're like, your child is the second coming of this person. Right? Like, obviously they didn't have that kind of foresight, but because chess was so systemic and a part of the culture in, in the Soviet union, talented.
Uh, players were recognized very early and given opportunities super early. And then the cream of the crop rises, even from that cream of the crop and then the cream of the crop of that. Right. So the, the Bob Bennett just school, um, I talked about Bob Vinik being the father of, of the Soviet chess, you know, really just regime.
Um, he was a world champion, but yeah. He's often referred to as the father of the Soviet union chess and, um, the bod binning chess school is where Gary Kasparov. I just mentioned the 13th world champion, right of the intimidating Garry Kasparov, Anatoly, Karpov. Uh, you know, you have all these guys Spassky Petrosian, those guys were kind of rivals of bud Vinik, but that whole next generation that came up through the seventies, eighties and nineties all attended the Bob Bennett school of chess.
For sure. Right. And the, and the talented players that were recognized young were given tons of opportunity. And so for him to become world champion is not only always been his dream, but probably all that's been instilled in him as his life option forever. Right. And so. I'll just say now I think that dialogue that goes down between Beth and Gloria is kind of like Beth's mom and her and that, you know, the, the overarching note that I made about the show, which is that, to me, the message from the very beginning is there's more to life than just, yes.
Right. And like you said, it stop and smell the roses, but it's like, Hey, like the beginning of the episode, it's about her, you know, Becoming a woman and losing her virginity and all the things that go there. And then, and then it's like the mom pushing her to get outside the box in terms of what might help her play her best chess.
It's not just X's and O's right. It's, you know, get out and smell the roses. And then it's like her direct question of this kid being like, well, what's after you reachable champion. And he's like, I don't understand. Right. And it's like, she's delivering a message to him. Right. A young, a young person growing up in the Soviet union.
Who's clearly fascinated by American culture with his questions about the drive-in movies. Right. And she kind of gets him thinking, Hey, there's more to life than just chess a little guy. Right. And, and I think that that's just kind of the overarching message of. This, um, this episode, and now, you know, now we're going to get into the big, you know, the big moments that happened here in the end, not just between her and Borga, but in, you know, in terms of what happens with her mom.
James: [01:14:38] Very true. Yeah. And we, we see the next scene. The elevator scene is I like to call it where Beth, we obviously know, know some Russian, uh, not sure the extent of Russian that she knows that we can assume that she clearly knows that bore Goff. And then also. Um, two members who are the second and third best players in the world are with, uh, bore golf, sort of like the crew, if you will.
And also some handlers, I like to call them, which Mike and Matt say their KGB, um, with them, which I think, and they said like, Oh, so he doesn't run off. Which, 
Danny: [01:15:09] uh, right. So, so this is, this is the zinger. So that is a very real thing. 
James: [01:15:15] I believe it. Yeah. 
Danny: [01:15:16] Yeah. And not only like a very real thing, but, um,  and Karpov were consistently trailed as they traveled internationally as were many other, um, top Russian players, not even the world's most talented.
In fact, any tournament internationally were Soviet player. I keep saying Russia, Soviet players were, were there. There was almost always the presence of a KGB agent. In fact, My, my coach, uh, the late Eagle Ivana who died of, of cancer, um, some years back, um, he actually, you know, trained me for many, many years.
He was also, um, an alcoholic and very well-known throughout the chest community, as you know, by some crazy stuff, what happened to chess tournaments? He was at like, you know, like, Pouring hot coffee on himself, on the board. And not even noticing that he did because he was so drunk. I won't get into all that, but like my coach Igor Ivana was legendary in terms of not just his alcohol consumption, but his chest, but he was also legendary because he was one of the first really like publicized and glorified defections from the Soviet union.
In fact, he played, uh, in the CAPA Blanca Memorial in Havana, Cuba in 1980. After. So Igor Igor one got I should. I know his whole life, but I should Wiki, but Igor won a Soviet union championship in 78, I think, or even 79. He tied for first. Um, and then he also beat Anatoly Karpov. In 79. Um, so the, so the point is Igor was an up and comer, but he was only an international master.
He wasn't even a Grandmaster. Right. But he was an up and cover and got an invitation to play in the CAPA. Baulkham Memorial. And Igor told me this story, which later was documented by others. And at first I didn't know how realistic it was, but he said he literally was going back to the plane after the event in Havana and Havana, Cuba.
To get on the plane and go back to St. Petersburg. He was from Leningrad and he literally. Physically ran for the embassy, like border and the KGB chased him. And he literally like jumped over like the line and the Soviet KGB agents couldn't pull him back. Oh, wow. And, and it's actually in his Wikipedia page that he defected, it became very public because he got away from the Soviet union.
Well with, uh, with an aggressive and public defection later on settled in Montreal, Canada and Igor eventually, um, lived in the States and, and, you know, and, and played in a lot of, a lot of tournaments and became kind of a, a well-known fixture of the American kind of like grand Prix series. Actually, he played in events all over the U S but, um, but yeah, it was a very well-publicized and documented defection of a top chess player from the Soviet union.
Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. 
James: [01:17:56] Yeah. So realistic what you're saying. 
Danny: [01:17:59] Yeah. So what I'm saying, the thing is I had to say, yeah, by the way I Google I Wiki did well. I finished my story. I didn't look at, but I was right. Yeah. He'd beat Karpov in 79. You got an invitation to the culpable Memorial in 1980 and yes, that's when he defected and literally, um, Yeah, so, okay.
He got out of the plane in abandon, but there was a stop in Montreal. That's right. And he defected while in Canada. And that's very famous story. So anyway, sorry, go ahead. I just want, I really wanted to add that because one, it's a very personal story for me. And Igor was someone who both negative and positively.
I mean, I've made jokes on shows where I say, you know, I say something like you made a blunder. Now, if I was my racist, Russian abusive alcoholic chess coach, this is what I would say to you. And when I say that, I'm not kidding. I ha w and Igor was Igor was an overt racist. Um, Igor did was not the best human being.
He wasn't, he was an alcoholic. Um, he was, um, he was a member of the Soviet union. He was a Russian, but, um, and Igor Igor was also, you know, I loved Igor and I knew we were very well and he left a positive impact on me. Cause that's what I choose to focus on, not the negative impact stuff. Um, and, uh, But he was a very influential and well-known character of the United States, you know, chess community.
And he's one of the most publicly and well-documented defection stories ever from the Soviet union. 
James: [01:19:13] Yeah. And that, and that's the type of stuff we bring here on blenders because it real life facts. I mean, it's really fascinating because I think, you know, you and I have been friends for, you know, decade plus or whatever, and there's actually a lot of your past that I don't know.
As much, and I continue to learn these things and hopefully our listeners are fascinated by these stories. Cause it's, it's, it's crazy to think about that. Those things happen. Like it's actually crazy to think in 2020, like. It's going and traveling and learning, playing chess in Russia right now. It's kind of mind boggling.
Danny: [01:19:44] Honestly. I've never told the story that direct and there's more to it. I could tell. I mean, I've told people some of the real ugly stuff that, I mean, I, my parents really left me alone with him way too much. I was making the man screwdrivers vodka or shoes at the age of 12 because they wanted me to get good.
And I spent a lot of time when you Gore, but anyway, so I've never told that full story, but yeah, Igor, Igor. Had a lot of stories for me, but that particular one was, was not. Was not exaggerated at all. He, he had a very real experience of physically jumping away from the KGB 
James: [01:20:15] and make sure you subscribe to our new podcast after hours, 
Danny: [01:20:18] chest with dad, uh, unlocking the mysteries and dysfunction of why Danny goes to therapy twice a month 
James: [01:20:24] now available on your favorite podcast app.
So, um, before we get into this match, there's. There's a weird point in Bhutan in between where we know Borg was going to open a bar graph is white. Uh, Mike and Matt who liked to show up randomly in this episode, I like to say in the future, in the future, Danny, when computers play chess, 
Danny: [01:20:45] white will 
James: [01:20:46] always win just like in tic-tac-toe and.
Danny you have the, um, computer chess championship and you have these engines. Can you there's no one better to talk about computer chess than Danny wrench. I think in 2020, 
Danny: [01:21:01] I, well, I appreciate that. I don't know if that's totally true, but I do. I do. Yeah. I'm, I'm probably one of, one of the most qualified and yeah, so our computer chess championship is running 24 seven.
It's almost like a project of love for my partner and our CEO, Eric, who is fascinated by where the neural nets are taking our game. This podcast is going to be a lot longer than 90 minutes if we go down that road. So what I'll just say is. For those who didn't follow the emergence of alpha zero from the Google deep mind project, you have been under a rock and neural nets while chess has always been on the forefront of where computers are affecting humans.
But I mean, some of the most infamous matches ever are Gary Kasparov, right? The Russian versus the IBM computer people who don't even remember Kasparov's name will say things like, yeah, there was that match by the guy from Russia versus the IBM deep blue computer. Remember like, you know, you've really made it when people can describe who you are without saying your name.
Like they say. Who's that American who became world champion. They may not remember his name was Bobby Fisher, but they know of him, right? Yeah. So, so computers have always been very closely entwined with chess, but even more so in the last few years, because of the, the, the jump into the world of what will eventually become Skynet and kill us all.
And don't worry, I'll be your John Connor baby. I'll be there for you. But eventually we know Skynet's going to become self-aware and launch the missiles. It'll probably be some version of alpha zero, which was the chess computer launched by Google's deep mind, which has now been. Taken and replicated by so many, um, you know, chess engine developers.
There's so many hybrids now of what's called Lila Lila. She's referred to as a girl, which is funny, even though it's a computer, but Leila is. In many ways, the strongest chess engine right now, but her core is a combination, especially the hybrid versions of, of neural of a neural network. So something humans gave minimal like no influence over it.
Just let it teach. Yes. Combined with sort of hybrid influence of the strongest chess engine technology, where we have taught the computers. Right. The right way to think about the game, right? Taught them how to make sacrifices, where they give up the math, but to gain a greater mathematical edge in the end, which is ultimately like checkmate.
Right? So I'll just say this it's a fascinating thing. The people that are rabid in this community, or seriously rabid, we basically just pay for the servers to have the top chess engines, neural nets, and otherwise battling it out all the time. And you can go there right now. Like it's just streaming with no commentary on Twitch.
To somewhere between like a couple hundred, to like a thousand viewers, just all the time, the chess.com/ccc is running nonstop. Computers are not winning when they're white. In fact, most games are drawn to, to go back to our, uh, Queens gambit episode that Mike and Matt referenced, most games are drawn, but it is true that you almost never see a victory with black.
Like you see, you see a lot of draws and then occasionally you see these brilliant sees by these computers as white. You almost never see victories as black, but, but even that isn't true. It does happen on occasion. And so Mike and Matt, while they were right, that white has the edge, they were wrong. That it would be, it would be that clear.
James: [01:24:06] Yeah. And of course in the real world, human versus human. They're not talking about engines and knocking about communion, computer chess. We see that obviously black and Beth has one is black, um, many a times here. Right? So it's, it's um, highly possible. But do you mean in your professional opinion? I mean, I have to imagine that yes, playing white is an advantage in a level of chess.
Let's say you're not doing speech us. Right. Because I think it's, it's different there too. Um, because it's faster play. There's probably some advantage there, but like in a. In a world championship. What is the level of, of advantage to be white to start off? Is it. Is it, you know, astronomical? Is it negligible?
Is it, is it in-between? What is, what are we talking 
Danny: [01:24:54] it's about what you see in databases, which white wins and most main line opening theory about 56% of the time. So it's a small edge, right? 56, 57, you know, somewhere between honestly 54 and 57% of the time. So you play a hundred games. Right. And you're going to get a lot of draws.
White's going to have an edge, a few games, right? And at the, at the top levels of chess, those who followed the world championship over the last few years, you know that in 2018, we had 12 straight draws between Magnus, Carlsen and Fabiana carwash, the American challenger and the match was eventually decided to rapid because when the time controls get faster, people make more mistakes.
They have less time to think their way through the dark forest. That is chess. Right. Um, yeah. So. Games amongst the top. Humans are very influenced by preparation of the top computers. I mean, I say this phrase often when I'm doing chess commentary that, Hey, that game was won in the kitchen. That game was won.
That game was won at home. Right. That position was winning for Yonda Palm, the she of Russia before we even reached move 25. And it's very clearly that that was home cooking. I like to use kitchen references, but people say it all the time. Right? Like that game was won in the office. Not at the board.
Right? Yeah. And so, because top engines are used so heavily, the results are very similar to top engine on engine action, the PG County not rated expedition, computer's got wild, you know, um, meeting, meaning a lot of draws. Yeah. And every once in a while, someone out prepares or out ideas in opponent who may be dismissed like, Oh, that's equal, but someone went a little further to reveal.
No, this sacrifice actually in the end is really good for white, right? So it's, you know, it's a different type of chess than you were playing in the sixties, right? There was, you know, intuition is still there and the best players in the world can still beat each other, but there's a lot of preparation done by the best players in the world are not human anymore.
Right. There are computers. And so, um, and so they also heavily influence the top human players. And so you get results that are. Close to 50 50 with small edges for white 
James: [01:27:05] championships like this international, when it came, comes to the final match, would it be just one match? And that's it because you were just talking about the, the Carlson match, right?
Um, a good for a magnet like that. Seven matches. Is it more like the NBA or like are a lot of the final tournaments? Like here's one and that's it. 
Danny: [01:27:23] Right.
Well, the, um, So you're asking like the term what's the term and format that decides the world champion kind of, 
James: [01:27:34] wouldn't it be fair that, that, Hey, these are the best two players. So we're going to do best of seven or whatever the best of the year is it just one match? I'm like, Hey, no 
Danny: [01:27:42] matter what, well, it's, it's one, it's one match, but it matches many games.
So the typical world championship match, or let's say bowl championship cycle, which is actually running right now and was delayed due to our, the global pandemic that we all face is you have a series of tournaments, usually for. Just six that are grand Prix events and people are in points. The top point getters amongst the top players, the people, the people who are in the top grand Prix points along with a few.
No direct invitationals, like wherever the previous challenge was, gets an automatic invite. Maybe the local organizer of the candidates gives one wild card, but overall, you get events with eight players. That is a double round Robin. This is called the candidates and the winner of the candidates.
Challenges the current world champion. So it's a, it's a grand Prix system that describes the candidates. The candidates play a, usually like a month long event, which was postponed halfway through during COVID back in, back in March. Um, and then the candidates which is set to resume this April in 2021 will decide the challenger to the world title.
And then that will championship match will be a 12 game classical match. If nobody has one after regulation, we will have a tiebreaker in rapid, which is what happened. Both the last two matches in 2018 and 2016. 
James: [01:29:00] Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense. So for, for this international Borga V Harmon is a realistic that there's just one match and that's it in this international style tournament.
Danny: [01:29:10] Yeah, no, this is, this is realistic. It's not, um, Yeah, it's not, it's not, this is an event that would be just what we would call a category one tournament. Right? It's a bunch of the top world players there and, you know, a bunch of elite players, there's probably a decent price fund and they're just playing each other.
It's um, you know, it's, it's interesting. I think the chess cycle is. It's kind of similar to tennis in that there's a lot of like major grand slams that don't necessarily decide who the world champion is. They're just big events. Right. And the only difference is that tennis doesn't actually have. That, that heavyweight boxing match that says, all right, now we've had all these, we know Djokovich and Federer are the best, and they're going to play a best of seven over two weeks tennis.
And we're going to see who the best is. Right. Which by the way, would be fricking badass. I mean, that's kind of a cool thing. A lot of people have encouraged chest to go more than route of tennis and realize, look, you don't even need a world championship match. Just have major events running all the time.
And whoever the number one is ranked tennis player in the world, that's just who everyone kind of knows is the best. But then people have said, no, actually one of the things that's sexy about chess and has been proven is that regardless of, of where chess may need to grow every couple of years, you have that event that is like the heavyweight boxing, all the Frazier than everyone stops and goes.
Yo Morpheus is fighting Neo, right? And everyone comes in watches. And I think that tennis, you could argue what you have Wimbledon and the Australian open and the French open, whatever you could argue that all those things. Maybe they also would benefit from like a single event every two years. That's like, now you get these four guys, we get an adult joke of itch, Federer, and you know, whoever together.
Right. So I'm going together and they're going to throw down in this like month long round Robin. And that guy is the world tennis champion. Right. I think people might like that. So anyway, yeah. Cool. 
James: [01:31:03] All right. Borgata V Harmon. Let's get into it. Um, let's talk about the opening here. This is a rasa rasa, Lima Russell, Lima, rasa, Lima, Rosa, Lima, rasa rasa.
Danny: [01:31:15] No, there's a rare 
James: [01:31:15] opening because we know that is a Sicilian master. Basically. That's what they kind of tee him up as here. So. This is a rare opening. Um, the rasa Lemo. Can you talk about this opening a little bit? And 
Danny: [01:31:29] so the dialogue is a little awkward from our, our Spanish speaking. I had to race the state.
She has had a spaniel, our race, uh, you know, the, the broadcaster extraordinary. It's a little awkward, cause he says like, For gov is the Cecile is a Sicilian master. And so now Beth Harman plays Paul into Queen's Bishop for which is an attempt to like do something. He doesn't know which by the way is the Sicilian.
So that, that I made, I made very detailed notes of this. I was like, that's a little, that's not totally accurate. Then he plays the Russel Lemo with Bishop to be five, but they actually don't define it as the Rasul emo until Beth plays queen to be six, which is inaccurate. Um, bore golf is the one who plays the Russell emo and Beth's post game, uh, description to the, to the, to her mother laying in bed is actually more accurate than the real time  commentary in that she says, basically he played this system.
That's not very known. I didn't know what to do about it. And then it was all like, you know, systematic from bear. He was a machine, right? Yeah. Her, her post-game depiction is very accurate. And, and we know that. Borg goes on to win this game and that he did indeed dominate her Sicilian. And he did indeed play a system that she didn't know.
And he obviously frustrated her and, and she tells her mom, I'm glad you didn't get to see it. Right. Cause I didn't want you to be upset or whatever. So Beth's, post-game depiction is perfect. The realtime one, I had to just point out those two and accuracies, like. You don't say that Beth did something to throw him off when she literally just played Paul under queen special for which is the Sicilian.
And, and he only describes it as she plays the rustle Lima, which is an accurate, he's the one who plays the Russell Lima with Bishop , which for the record, by the way, just funny coincidence, I didn't. Playing on this, but you and I just spent a bunch of time talking about Carlson carwash 2018. The Rasul emo was a regularly featured system in that 2018.
We'll just championships. And it was played. It was played often, but at this time in the sixties, it's a very good depiction to say that it was kind of a sideline, not something she would know very well. 
James: [01:33:30] Gotcha. Gotcha. 
Danny: [01:33:31] And then, so they nailed it. Nailed it. Hashtag nailed 
James: [01:33:33] it. What's that thing that she says on that show.
Nailed it nailed it. Um, so we get to go to the end game here. We know that best mom does not show up, even though Mike and Matt have saved the spot, um, for her we're at this end game that comes up in this fashion and, and Beth is, it's not good. Uh, that bar, the analysis bar on the left-hand side 
Danny: [01:33:55] is 
James: [01:33:57] plus eight plus 8.09 for white.
Um, you know, also by the way, really quick, give the ten second pinch of what that means. In the real world, plus eight Oh nine. I have no idea what that actually means. 
Danny: [01:34:09] It means white is completely winning. Um, I think that at the high levels, anything that goes beyond plus three very rarely goes back. Now it blitz and bulleted does.
I mean, if you watch the speeches championship final between NACA, Maura, and MBL. If people do make blenders in blitz and bullet, but at over the board chest, like never does it advantage from plus three, not get converted to a win. Oh, almost, almost never. Among the world's elite. It's very rare. Um, something beyond plus five, I would say almost like with a hundred percent certainty, the top players win the reason I would say even.
Even plus 1.5 to three is a significant advantage and most of the time converted, but there are times where the evil bar, or let's say the engine, just giving that mathematical evaluation of, Hey, White's up plus two here. Uh, which is by the way, a sent upon, like it's supposed to be like worth a pull on, even if it's not exactly a part of the board, it's just the computer's way of saying this.
Guy's kinda like up two pawns in the position, the way that we've taught them to, to, to sort of spit out, uh, in evaluation for us to understand, um, It can be a little murky, even though I would say, plus 1.5 to plus three is most of the time going to be one, probably it can slide back the other way. Cause you know, there can often be enough complications that a human being is not going to play as perfect as an engine would and not convert on it.
Um, but you know, that's what that means is white is winning. Gotcha. 
James: [01:35:34] So that white bar is very high. This is where we see Mr. Scheibel yet again. And, um, Beth knows what to do. And she, she does what, uh, Greg did to her. And she usually, she, you know, Forfeits it's over, you know, she, yeah. 
Danny: [01:35:49] She resigned, 
James: [01:35:50] she resigns and she's not happy about it.
And that's the end of the match, really. And I think that, you know, we know by earlier dialogue that she will be in Paris. We know that bore golf will be in Paris, um, 
Danny: [01:36:04] from the first episode of the entire show. 
James: [01:36:07] Yeah. We know that as well. Right. And we know now, funnily enough, Um, we were talking about Borg and I was like, remember that very first scene in the very first second I was like, that was Borgata.
And she was like, Oh my God. Right? Like, it's, it's finally comfortable circle where you know why that very opening scene in openings is very important because we're at this sort of match in the future, which I'm excited about when we get there, which I don't know much about yet, but we get to the next scene here, which.
You know, it was very sad in this regard because there's two things that happen. Um, now, Danny, I don't know about you, but when you lose a chess match and you're very upset, do you go up to your room and start taking off all of your clothes? 
Danny: [01:36:50] Um, always I get, I get butt naked, butt naked. Yep. Um, that was, that was you, you made a comment early on in the episode that they.
That you felt that they unnecessarily sexualized bath. And I assume this is exactly what you're referring to right here. 
James: [01:37:06] You may note sense. Okay. We know that best mom is, is up in the room. She, like you said, she's doing this great job of describing the chess match. She does describing bore golf as this, by the books.
He shows no weakness. It's like he doesn't even have a soul in some way, just very stern on there. But at the same time, she's undressing. And we basically just see this 17 year old at the time. Like we, you know, she's not naked, right. She has like this older school bra on, but you know, back then there were more wires and we see, you know, for no reason, like, I don't understand the context of the direction, but it felt to me a very out of place and very unnecessarily sexualized, um, for no reason.
And I just thought that it added zero value. In fact, it sort of made me. Um, rewatching it, especially, I was like, what is going on here? Like what I don't. I was like, why are they doing this? Because it kind of devalues the, to me, the whole show in some way, like, it was very unnecessary, um, compared to the beginning, which we understand she's in this scenario with this boy, the schmuck.
Right. And that's fine, but it w it was just me. I just want to bring it up for context that. There was no value add here besides to sexualize her for no reason. 
Danny: [01:38:22] I, I, I totally hear you at all. All. Um, I think that's totally fair. I'll push back for the sake of saying one point potentially. Like I I'm maybe reaching a little bit, but one like kind of subconscious point, I think they're trying to.
To imply, especially because we know that she ultimately finds her mother dead in the bed. And at this point you've seen the episode, every one, so don't get mad at me. And so what I wanted to say is that they're doing something there, which is like, Beth feels safe with her mom and only her mom. Yeah. I agree that one it's it's Hollywood it's movies, right?
It's Anya Taylor joy. She's the lead female role in a movie where, you know, I mean, I think that they're clearly doing something that you said that seems to devalue the show because they're, oversexualizing a character purely because that's what you do in Hollywood and you have an attractive female lead.
And so you sexualize them, right? I mean, this is something that. That shows do. And I would say I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because they don't ever. Go out of their way to show nudity in the show like this. That is not something they do. And I'm sorry if I'm ruining spoilers for episodes, you know, five, six and seven, but they don't.
And so, because I know that they don't, like, I kind of looked at this as one. It was odd. I agree. And it definitely stood out to me watching the second time. But there's something that she's doing. Like, she's sort of like letting her guard down with her mom. She's like, it's not just. You know, sort of venting about how bore golf just destroyed her, but she's getting out of her uncomfortable clothes that she has to wear in this like male dominant world.
She's just like stripping down and being real Beth and expressing herself in terms of how she feels vulnerable about how she just got. You know, dominated by this guy and then like twist ending Beth Harmon's life is about to get even harder. We're in the, we're in the midst of a real tragic seven episode show, everyone buckle up because mom is dead in the bed.
And, and from alcohol, not necessarily, we'll say alcohol over an entire lifetime, right. Kind of. That's all going to be my pushback. And, and I don't, I don't disagree with you. I found it slightly out of place, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that maybe you don't have, because I already know that I don't find that this director and the writing ever went out of their way to add unnecessary, like graphic nudity, or nudity or sexuality, they clearly sexualized her, but it's also.
You know the story of a woman coming into her age. And, and we see what happens with male characters later on in the show, which I won't spoil, but because I don't feel like they ever crossed the boundary. I kind of looked at this as like, she's just like pissed. She's like throwing off her, her clothes and she's going to take a bath because she's got to relax and she's going to vent with her mom and this and that.
And that's. Somewhere who she feels so safe with. And then, Oh my God, like mom, what happened to you? Right. So that's my only pushback, but I do, I do hear you. 
James: [01:41:08] Let me see it. I think that, you know, again, it's hard to be, we're both white CIS males, right? Talking on this podcast to the best of our analogy while I do am heavily involved in DNI exercises and heavily involved with conversations with people in my life.
I can't you'll realize it, but I can't say this as if. It was the opposite in this. And this is me talking about movie and television and not, you know, chess, which is, which is what we like to do on this podcast. Cause I, I come from that background too, is like, listen, if bore Gough had lost this match and we follow bore golf back into his room is Beauregard, stripping down and looking at himself.
And when we were looking at him, we're not by the way. So I think that's where we, if we flip it, it's there. 
Danny: [01:41:51] But I agree. I think you almost would have like better just like, like a, you know, how movies can do a lot with one line of dialogue, like come in. I'm so frustrated. I can't wait to take a shower.
Like, can you believe this happened? Right. Maybe if you say that right. Or something like that, like, it makes it like, all right, well, she was on her way to take a bath or something. I got to see feel that 
James: [01:42:11] text. Right. You're mixing cons. 
Danny: [01:42:12] Exactly, exactly. And, um, And yeah. So anyway, so yeah, then let's, you know, so she loses this game.
She bends to her mom and then the big ending of our episode is, Oh my God. Um, 
James: [01:42:25] Mrs. Wheatley has gone. She's she's she's there still, you know, it's, um, heartbreaking in many aspects, not only to, to watch Beth go through this again. Right. Um, in this, in this vein, she's lost two moms that at this point, she's alone in Mexico, right?
Um, she's still, we, Mrs. Wheelie earlier says that she wasn't feeling well, that she had caught a virus. We find out that we believe it's hepatitis and there's many forms of hepatitis, which is a virus. Um, Uh, of the liver, right? And, and you can, you can get vaccinated alone. People are backed into, against hepatitis now, but you know, this can have an onset of alcohol as well, which we, we see this long-term thing here.
So we believe that maybe that is the case. Poor Beth in this, um, entire scene, we go through the, the, the hotels there to help her to get on the plane. She gets a hold of mr. Wheatley, the. Worst. I haven't written 
Danny: [01:43:21] down. Her Wheatley is the worst. 
James: [01:43:23] Literally. What, what a schmuck, you know what I mean? What a jerk, I mean just, Oh, 
Danny: [01:43:30] it's just, I'm like to get, I want to foreshadow, but I'm sorry, buddy.
It doesn't get any better. Like he's not a good dude. Like he's just a bad guy. He's a bad guy throughout the shelf. Um, 
James: [01:43:39] so bad. Um, but I do like the end part, which is. Um, she asked the doctor, who's helping take them. I take her mom away. They're going to fly her back to Lexington, going to get her buried.
Beth is going to get the house or that's what Mr. Wheatley says. And she asked the doctor if she can get some, you know, medication, basically some, some 
Danny: [01:43:59] Greenies, some greens. 
James: [01:44:00] And the doctor said in Mexico, you don't need a prescription for that. Just put it out of the office. And at the, at the very end, we see her walk into the pharmacy.
They give her the pill and she says Moss, which is more in Spanish. Right. And, um, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm excited for that because we now have an in, as to Beth now knows that she can basically go to Mexico at any time. He can get as many tranquilizers as she wants. Um, but yeah, that's Oh, by the way, the very end scene on the plane back.
She has Gibsons, which is yep. And there's an app tribute to her mom with the MTC next to her. So a send off to mrs. Wheatley, a very sad episode. I literally texted you. And I said, sad episode. Um, yeah, because not only did Beth lose, but lost again. Right? So this middle game, which this middle episode could be actually tragic end game 
Danny: [01:44:51] right.
Said was, and I was going to save for the end, but had already said earlier that I think that's what the show this episode is about is that there's more to life than chefs. Right? I mean, like everything from the beginning of what happens with her and her experiences to like how she talks to the skin and then what happens with her that you don't see?
I mean, I didn't see it coming when I watched it. And I was kind of upset. I was like, why didn't mom make it to Paris and whatever. Why did the writers do that? But then you realize like, You know, she had the experience with Manwell. It was like, she, you know, maybe she found some happiness. She had never really founded her life with a healthy relationship with a guy that really loved her.
Right. And she had a great time. And in terms of experiences, she certainly didn't get with Mr. Wheatley, Mr. Bad guy. Right. Um, and so I kind of was like, I liked it better the second time. I, the first time I was like, that was an odd way to write the mom out of the show. That was unnecessary. That was I, and watching it.
I was like, you know what? In the end of this episode, like the message is clear, like Beth, you know, her tragic life continues, her chest talent continues, but she's being shown like, look. Welcome to the real world. This is a struggle, but we're, God is not going anywhere. And there's more to life than just, yes.
Your mom wanted you to experience that she was constantly pushing you to realize that, and, and now she's gone, right. It's just as the ultimate, sign-up that there's more to life than chess. Right. And I think so again, knowing where the show goes, I thought this was actually, it wasn't my favorite episode, sort of all of them because of maybe just cause it was sad and dark, but I don't feel like.
In the end, it was bad. And knowing where the whole show goes, I really feel like it sets the tone for a back half. That is going to be drama field full of obstacles to overcome for Beth Harmon. And we get, we pay attribute by the way, I had Gibsons, um, the other night with my buddy Dalen, because we wanted to pay tribute to the Queens, gambit, all new people, learning chess.
He's like, dude, let's make Gibsons. And by the way, they're gross. So onions do not. Onions do not go well with martinis. I prefer traditional martini with olives. That's pretty much the only difference is a, is a, a, um, fermented sort of, you know, soured onion, um, versus a, an olive. Um, and, uh, I prefer the traditional martini.
James: [01:47:03] That's going to be next weekend. We're going to give it a go to Gibsons. Well, we will, we will get to that back half of the Queen's gambit next week. That's right. We will come in on episode five. We hope that you've enjoyed your journey along with us, uh, in this podcast, of course you can reach out to us anytime, go to blunders.fm.
You can leave comments on the show or just email us. There's a contact button. We also post the shows, um, on YouTube. So, uh, you can also it's there. So if you want to comment on YouTube and watch it there in the background, some people enjoy that much more. Or you can subscribe on your favorite podcast application.
We are everywhere on Amazon, on Spotify, on Apple podcasts, on overcast, on all the podcasts applications. We of course would love a review that helps more people find the podcast, the optimal way to help find people find the podcast is just share it with them. Say, Hey, check out this, you know, we're, we're literally sitting here remotely on zoom discussing Queen's gambit right now, check out this podcast and then boom.
Hopefully you can watch it back with us. I've enjoyed this so far. I'm excited to get into the back half. Of this series, Danny. Thank you so much for breaking it down. Um, I think that's going to do it for this. Week's a blunders. Anything else from you, buddy? 
Danny: [01:48:13] No man. You did, you did the thing reminding everyone of all the things to follow and support.
I can't wait for episodes five, six, and seven. I really am excited at this point. And, uh, and yeah, we'll see you then next time. 
James: [01:48:25] Peace.