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James: [00:00:00] Oh, my goodness, Danny. I rewatched double pawns last night and Oh my goodness. What an amazing episode. 
Danny: [00:00:17] It, honestly, I feel like this is where the series really kind of finds its stride or found its stride. Not to say when I. First watched it and now watching it for the second time, having enjoyed the first couple episodes.
But there's something about the double ponds episode that we're, you know, we're going to unravel right here in this particular podcast that I think really hooks the viewers in terms of at least the excitement of, of where the show's going. 
James: [00:00:42] That is right. Yeah. Now, if you're brand new to coffee house blunders, Danny said it.
Um, we are breaking down every single episode of international Netflix sensation. The Queen's gambit, um, Danny, and I've been doing this podcast for a long time and we kicked off season two by demand to break down each and every single episode. I am James Monson Magno. I am a program manager over at a small company in Washington called Microsoft by day.
I'm a programmer by night. I am Batman. 
Danny: [00:01:07] There you go. You did it before I could say it. All right. You passed the test. 
James: [00:01:12] Yes. And also a chess enthusiast, but with me is international chess master and chief chess. Officer of chess.com. Danny wrench. Oh my goodness. Danny, how did I do, did it 
Danny: [00:01:21] geology? You crushed it sometimes.
Sometimes when I'm describing it to no one, um, chess. Uh, fussy or enthusia. Sometimes I say chief content officer CCO, because that is actually the standard say, which is also true when, when Eric and I first agreed, like, what exactly is my role? Well, I oversee like all of our content and events, which we believe fall under content and social media, which we believe falls that content.
So I kind of oversee all of that, but then we realized actually chief chef's officer pretty much is the best, uh, you know, made up title you could ever give yourself. So it's stuck. I think 
James: [00:01:55] it's good. I think it's a more descriptive a role title. So I think it fits you very well because what we're doing here is.
Not only producing content, but really we're just talking about chess. Let's just be honest. Yeah. Wow. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, we are breaking down every single episode. If you haven't listened to the first two episodes, they are there. We do not do any spoilers for future episodes. So if you are watching at home episode by episode and wanting the details, this is the right place for you because in fact, I have not watched episode four yet, so no spoilers, Danny don't do it.
Danny: [00:02:24] Don't do it. We've officially reached the brink of where after. Today's podcast. We will be, you will be watching the next episode, which is middle game for the first time. I will be watching it again, as we have in terms of our prep for every one of these podcasts we do. And all right, man, but you, you know, I'm here to talk about the chess, but you're really here to drive the ship.
You're you're the guy who has been helping lead the format here and kind of taken us through the timeline of each episode. So double points, remind everybody, where are we and where are we going in this next beautiful part of this podcast? 
James: [00:02:57] Yes, we are going to Cincinnati 1963 and really fascinating. This episode, we jumped three years.
Um, they've done this to us before, where we've jumped times ahead of time and they jump, um, they jumped timelines a lot. In fact, some of my data that I have here, I can not validate. Um, we'll get to these. I like to point out really auditing to see if they got data. Correct, but I can't get it right because they don't place.
Um, timelines in this, they jump around very active from 1963 to 1965 in 1966. But yeah, we are here, uh, in this world, you know, Beth has gotten her first taste at the Kentucky chess, um, um, opening over there, um, at the high school that she played in, she crushed it. Uh, it was amazing and her mom is all into it now.
Um, and really. Is all about taking her to as many tournaments as possible. And this is where things really jump off. To be honest with you. I think the opening of this show is very intriguing though. They blend a lot of Beth's background with her actual mother, not her adopted mother right into this. This scene is.
Um, tear jerking, it's emotional. It opens up with Beth and as a young child and her mom out on the beach, you can see, um, cuts on her mom's wrist, right? Of like razorblades, her mom jumps into the water, says goodbye and basically waves to her. Right. And, and the background of this. So emotional, you hear the, the, the ticking of the chess clock, you know, and it amplifies as it goes on until our mom comes back out of the water.
What, uh, you know, they end and start these episodes on such a dramatic. It really sucks you in, 
Danny: [00:04:42] it will set. And, you know, obviously we're going to talk a lot about the chats, but of course this whole, this whole show, I think, has such amazing reviews. And the critics are kind of the unsung hero of the popularity of the, of the, uh, the Netflix Queens gambit show, because.
Because it's, it's just phenomenal, regardless of whether you were a chess fan and this opening I remember was quite literally just like a weird tear-jerker because you don't even know, is this a, is this a dream, right? Like her mom is jumping in. I mean, there's obviously, uh, you know, a lot of whatever, the symbolism of her mom jumping into the water and going away from her and she doesn't know whether she's ever going to come back up for air.
Right. And this little girl on the edge of her seat and then thrilled that the mom. You know, comes up from, I guess it's a Lake there at right. And, and okay. Mom made it, but also the future of already where, you know, that relationship goes because of the, you know, the beginning of the, uh, the series, you already know that there's a fatal car crash in their, in their future.
And, um, yeah, so that as you on the edge of your seat and then the ticking clock is like the chest anxiety over it all. I mean, that, that. That noise as a chess player who has been in and was high at high-level events enough with back when we were still using analog clocks. One of the funny notes I have here to bring up in the beginning is obviously the ticking of the clock months is huge and appropriate for the timeline of the Queen's gambit.
They're playing chess in the sixties. And that was when there were no digital clocks let alone online chess. So ticking is exactly the kind of thing you would hear at a chess board as a chess player, but. I also played in events early enough in the nineties when analog clocks, which is what those are.
We'll refer to them as, um, were still used more popularly and tournaments than digital clocks. There was all kinds of tournament clocks that took over from there. The DGT clocks used now the Kronos clocks that were around there are so many digital clocks that. I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole of a chess player, but I had to make a note of that because the anxiety, a chess player feels, especially when they're under time pressure, when that clock is ticking is something that is very real.
And when you combine that with Beth Horman's experience as a human being, in terms of like, whatever you want to call it, the ticking time bomb, that was her relationship with her mother. That's the note I've made, right. It was a very like kind of moving, moving in and awesome opening scene. Yeah. 
James: [00:06:58] When you, when you hear that ticking, right?
I mean, it brings you back to like, when you're in, like watching speed or some other movie where there's a bomb, right. And the bomb is all digital. It's not like making a tick, but it has to make a tip to be dramatic. Right. That the tick is the dramatic part. And, and, and I just love the drama that they, that brings into it.
But it's fascinating enough, like you said, it's really not there. Although I would say. And that when you watch chess on, let's say chess.com, the, the digital version as they, as you're playing was like a round a bullet. Um, that clock, when it starts to get down to the milliseconds, right. When it's really, as those tiny little bits of the seconds are really going, and it's moving really fast.
I think that that can be, it can be even. More anxiety driven when you're, when you're down to those final seconds of the math. 
Danny: [00:07:52] Yeah, totally. And again, the time pressure these days is something you think of online, those who watch the chest streaming community and all the events we do@chess.com, the time is taking, but it's.
It doesn't have that same, you know, noise that goes with it. But, um, yeah, I can say the anxiety of hearing those seconds tick off the clock when your flag is, is hanging in the air and, and you know, it's not an exact science when you're reading, uh, an analog clock versus a digital clock, you don't know exactly what you have.
So I think anyway, I think it's awesome. Great way to start. And here we go, Beth Harmon life continues, 
James: [00:08:25] right? Yup. Cincinnati. Since the 19 
Danny: [00:08:29] 1767, nobody ever here we go to Cincinnati in 1963. I was just kidding. Go ahead. 
James: [00:08:35] Um, yeah, this is fascinating, you know, I think the beginning of this episode, uh, we'll contrast heavily towards the end of the episode, because in the beginning of the episode, We're still in 1963, Beth had just won the Kentucky, um, chess tournament.
There. She is still seeking acceptance into the chess community. Um, and this is immediately shown off when she goes to put in her papers and the gentleman says it's, uh, one 2040. And he goes, that means he goes to, that means that you have two hours to play 40, but he has a, he thinks that he has to explain it to her, even though she is literally.
Already won the Kentucky, um, tournament. And she is here at an open in Cincinnati, 
Danny: [00:09:20] which is, I mean, kind of, kind of appropriate. I mean, obviously it's a little awkward because, um, you know, you'd think you don't, you don't always go out of your way to just explain it to, to a new person, whether you know them or not, you know, so, but I think for the context of the show and for continuing to like, You know, portray the part of Beth Harman that like she's a chess genius, but she's also socially learning the ropes all the time.
Right. I mean, that's been a theme throughout the first, at least the first few episodes, the first one, two and three. And I think that that's, I think that's what they're trying to depict is like that she's, she's kind of not like the others and any group she's in. She's not like the girls she hangs out with.
She's not like, uh, you know, the, the very male dominant chess tournament scene. And I think that. There is, you know, she does a, such a good job. We don't, we don't talk much about Anya Taylor joy in terms of the actors. I feel like her face says a lot of things in a lot of scenes in a lot of critics have said that how amazing that is.
So I think sometimes that's actually a credit to like her acting as a character. She really does a good job of explaining with her face, whether she understands something or not. Is that a fair way to say it? Right. And I think there's like a feeling that people are like, Oh wait, she doesn't understand what one 20 and 40 means, which it actually means you have to make 40 moves in the first 120 minutes.
So 40 moves in two hours, as you were about to explain, maybe you didn't take it that way. What did you, what did you take out of that seat? 
James: [00:10:43] No, I think I of that same, how I took it was, um, was validated by the next scene, to be honest with you, because the next scene after, after that gentleman explains it to her, you know, I think, I think you are right her face, her emotions throughout everything, how she sits down at a chess board, how she puts her.
You can tell when she's deep thinking, when her thought is her emotions read well on her face. But I think once she. Re meets Benny. Right? Right. Um, Benny says some interesting things, but I'll talk about the revalidation first, because eventually, then soon after Benny, he's talking about the car pro-con right back.
But right after that, he meets. Um, you know her again and he goes, he calls her a little girl. He tells her that, um, why he isn't playing at this open. He says, playing too many opens can only hurt me. Right. He's sort of, uh, in a way, especially with little girl talking down to her, not showing her the respect in this chess world, but he's also, you know, it's that, um, you know, that, that side, um, He's throwing shade.
That's what he did in 1963 shade by saying like, I don't know, I'm too good for this open. In fact, I don't play it. You're going to go play all these open to that fun, but me Benny, I don't think so. You know what I mean? 
Danny: [00:11:56] One of the chess things I noted about that, the context of that, obviously we do have to talk about the CARICOM being all, all ponds and no hope because it's one of the greatest lines and best memes that has come out of the show in the chess community.
But, um, the, that is actually. The thing that's great about that is it's both things in one. It's what you said. It's it's. It's throwing shade. It is definitely at least slightly misogynistic, if not just totally overtly. Right. A little girl, a fish out of water in a male dominant community. He's like, who's, you know, he he's he's, he's throwing shade.
It's massage. Monistic it's dismissive. Um, And then, but they also consistently do a good job of depicting what a strong chess player would be like. And a very, very, for example, I can tell you, there was a period in my chest career where my coaches told me to stop playing in so many rapid opens because there's a process like for a chess player where.
Where you're growing Matson, really, everything is just about practice, practice, practice, right? The more chess games you play, the better you're literally in the 10,000 hours stage of your chess career and pattern recognition can only really, you know, you only recognize more patterns by seeing more patterns.
Obviously I'm oversimplifying. The process and you know, you're analyzing your games, all this stuff, but that's really, the key is like, your coaches are like, I don't care what you're playing and you're playing in the open on Friday. Now you're going to play the Saturday rapid. Then you're going to go play the Sunday, you know, 60 minutes, then you're going to play on two.
Like, this is the plan for a chess coach. Right? And then you get to a certain point where they're like, all right, you have habits of playing too quickly and disciplined and you need to stop playing so many opens. You're going to focus on more serious, longer time patrol, sort of closed events that are.
You know, basically tougher competition, let's say. And so it's all those things wrapped into it and, and it, it definitely hits home, but it also is suggestive to Beth, as she learns more of the community, that Betty actually is like a boss of the chess community. Right. Because that is something that the stronger chess players start to do as they get better, they play in less opens.
They play in more closed invitational events. So what I'm saying is like, They nailed it. What am I, what am I trying to say? What does that lady say on the show? Nailed it. Nailed it. They totally nailed the, the, like the demeaning way. A stronger chess player would talk to a weaker chess player and it wasn't an accurate.
Right. Yeah. Um, like for example, if someone who didn't know a chess community could do the same scene and say like, Oh, invitationals are for weak players, I play more opens. And then I would be the chess player on a podcast podcasts, like this saying, actually that's really inaccurate. That's not how the chess community works.
Right. So I was just saying like, they really nailed that whole, like the whole feeling and vibe you get from that scene and the relationship between her and Benny Watts that kind of starts to formulate right then. 
James: [00:14:39] Yeah, that's a good, that's a good, uh, in, you know, kind of good perspective on it because yeah.
How I would've interpreted as a little bit, a little bit different, but it's kind of like, Hey, this is actually, as you get in and as you grow your career path, like you're going to actually be playing in a lot less openings. Like I almost see that for you. Like in some way, maybe, hopefully you're saying that, but yes, let's get back to the Carl Khan defense.
Um, you know, he says Rook to seventh rank Carlos Condit fence, all pawns. And no hopes they're discussing this there. I, we talked about the Carlo con defense. I don't really know what Rook to seventh rank means. And on this podcast, we like to break down chess terminology because I know sometimes they talk about stuff.
I don't know what that means. 
Danny: [00:15:20] Um, well, moving your book to the seventh rank is often, uh, suggestive or indicating that someone's about to basically just dominate, um, usually an end game because, um, On a chess board, you have 64 squares and obviously of, of, uh, rotating and opposite colors. But as the position opens up, especially in a, in a closed game, you start to get only a couple open files and open file here and an open file there.
And I often say as a chess coach, that open files are like commodities in that what governs their value is supply and demand. So if you're in a closed position and there's only one open file, it's super important who gets control over that with their books. Right. Whereas if you're in a wide open position, You know, there's a lot, there's a large supply.
The value isn't that high. So Rooks on the seventh rank is usually the first person who gets the Rook to the seventh rank is about to clean up. That's kind of what they're saying. They're about to dominate the game because you control the open file. You control the Avenue, the highway, if you will. And without getting, you know, make this a whole, you know, chess supply and demand philosophy lesson, but it is something I've actually, I've actually lectured on understanding the supply and the demand of a chess board and being able to start to target.
Um, what's more valuable because there's less of it available to both sides. So anyway, the Brook of the seventh rank is exactly implying. The first person who gets the Rook to the seventh rank is about to roll through this end game, going to crush. And he was kind of. Uh, it actually, again, appropriately sort of criticizing the Cara con for being a slow, very closed kind of passive opening and, um, sort of implying that, you know, the cleanup is about to come.
James: [00:16:51] Gotcha. So when, when they say, when he says, you know, all ponds and no hope is that because the Caro con defense is truly all bonds and no. 
Danny: [00:17:01] Okay. So this is great. So we're actually, I have a, um, A particular author. I won't say his name. He's very well well-known in the chest when he was working on a series on the Carol Colon for chess.com right now, a lesson series.
And I initially joked, when we hired him for him, I said, yeah, you can call it all palms. And no hope. Obviously we've all seen the Queen's gambit. And even if you haven't in the chess world, that was a very funny meme that came from Benny Watts. It's obviously an exaggeration. He's doing a series on, you know, uh, Endorsing how to play the characters.
Well, but it is exactly how, like a player like Benny Watts, especially learned about it, but criticize it. It's what is the CARICOM? It's a, it's a, um, it's a slow opening. That's all about strategic pawn structure management. Hmm. So the reference of it's all pollens, no hope is not totally inaccurate. And that it's kind of a closed passive opening.
Of course it's not, not no hope. The Cairo con has been played by many, many great chess players, um, in the history of the world. I'll say that, um, Mikhail Botvinnik was a very, uh, strong proponent of it. Um, in his world championship matches. I mentioned him because he is the father of the Soviet union in terms of chess.
Um, so it's not totally accurate, but it is all again, awesome shade by Benny Watson. It has become a very hilarious sort of meme of the chess community. 
James: [00:18:17] Yeah. And I think that we'll see some of this, uh, some of this come back up into play. It's already been in play a little bit, but I think it's fascinating.
They said, you know, I would take the Knight and double his pawns and. And this is a direct reference to a 1935 match, which they referenced in the show. 
Danny: [00:18:37] Yeah. And again, that just shows, um, we've made a, we made that timeline of it, um, that you and I have referenced a few times the spreadsheet that shows the timeline of chest use in the series.
And again, they're following so greatly, too. The evolution of chess, if you will, initially, she's playing combinations by, you know, ready over target to cower and, you know, from Hastings in 1910 and the Greco games. And then it's now it's, we're in like this positional era and they're quoting games from 1935.
So again, just awesome stuff. And I 
James: [00:19:07] think here too, even though Benny does kind of talk down to her in this little girl was talking about this, this here, you know, he. She reintroduces herself and, and she even acknowledges like they had met, but they didn't really interact. Right. And, and, and Ben is like, you know, sorry, you know, he wasn't rude about it.
And to be honest, Benny, at this point we learn he's an international master, which what we're going to talk. We're going to talk this podcast about ranks and stuff. Not yet. We're not there yet. Once we sit down to the dinner table with, um, uh, Mike and Matt, we will go ahead and talk about this, which is coming up soon, but.
Um, you know, I thought that was pretty fascinating that, you know, he, he struggled, he kind of shrugs her off a little bit, but he still acknowledged like, Oh, okay. Like we must have right. Was like that. And as someone you traveling all over, I travel tons. We meet tons of people that is, I want to say, like, that's not shade.
Right. You you in the world, if you're a traveler, if you're someone that is presenting a lot or playing chess a lot, you're going to meet tons of people all the time. And you're not going to remember everyone. And their interaction was very small in the previous episode. So I just thought it was fascinating.
Danny: [00:20:14] And plus, and plus like they've already sort of. Foreshadow remember in episode two exchanges, when she looks at one of the Chester U magazines, Benny Watson's on the front of it, right? Yep. So they've already sort of planted the seed that Benny Watts, whoever he is is sort of a, somebody in the chess world.
We don't even know the full extent, but we know. Right. And, and so I think it's understandable, but it's not total shade. It's him kind of saying. I don't remember you, but not necessarily in a jerky way. Right? I mean, he travels a ton as a professional player, and most likely when he's in the chess world at a tournament, he's probably meeting a lot of people.
James: [00:20:48] Yeah, I agree. Now, th now this entire episode moves really, really fast through the years and through the chest, even from this first match, which maybe is one of my favorite five seconds of the first three episodes where she gets assigned, I think it's like table 15 or something like that. And, and he, she goes over to the guy to shake hands and she goes, I'm Beth Harman.
And he goes, Jay, you know what I mean? You're just like, ah, and then it's over. And she's the first attorney in the card. And so just the guys, basically the life just gets sucked out of him. Right. Because at least there is some beginning point in a way people know who she is. 
Danny: [00:21:35] Yep. No, we're starting to see that right when she won the Kentucky tournament.
Um, and uh, her name is developing and. You know, that happens. Sometimes you play someone and you just go, you know, I like to think at one point I was like the feared young, talented up and comer. Um, and people didn't want to play. And at a certain point it switched roles. And I was like, Oh, like, you know, the person who they wanted to get free rating points from, I feel like I've been on both sides of that.
So that was, that was I really, I thought that was well done. 
James: [00:22:05] It was good. And they move right on to the next day match at table five now. Now do, as you progress through the game. Moving up tables, like, cause then she was at table five and they kind of made it a point to have the table five little plaque or they're like in a game that's, uh, over the board like this in this tournament, at least in the era does moving up to a higher bar, a hundred 
Danny: [00:22:25] percent accurate.
Yeah, really well done. And sorry, not even to cut off your thought, but you're a hundred percent a good question. And they're nailing it still. They're nailing it. You nailed it. 
James: [00:22:35] Well that, and I love this because this was the first one that, um, her mom watches. 
Danny: [00:22:41] Yeah. The first time she really, and there's a scene there too, or I took it as like the mom kind of like fully appreciating who her daughter was.
Right. It was like, Oh yeah, like, 
James: [00:22:53] wait a second. 
Danny: [00:22:54] Wait. There's like a lot of people in here, like, and she's like impressive and watching how she carries herself as a, as a woman in a, in a room full of men. Right. And I think the mother, again, they have that relationship, you know, they're, they're in this together now, uh, which we kind of.
You know, we talk too fast and usually we talk about the, uh, the name of the episode of what it means. And I actually thought it was in some ways, a direct reference to not just the chefs, but maybe, um, the two women, uh, together, um, and, and feeling like they're, they're kind of learning the chess world. And, um, and that was a really cool scene for the mom to kind of appreciate what, uh, what the environment was for Beth and, and how, how at what a high level she was competing.
James: [00:23:33] And she even says, she's, it goes, this is much more exciting than I thought. Right. She literally is that all like, you know, I've had these, uh, you know, the experiences with my parents or other family members where they're like, Oh, wow. Like, what you do is actually. Not what I thought I was, you know? 
Danny: [00:23:49] Yeah. So many of those, 
James: [00:23:51] that is what happens.
And yet Mike and Matt are there. Everyone loves the Mick and Matt. 
Danny: [00:23:55] They're two of my favorite characters throughout the whole thing. Anyway, go ahead. 
James: [00:24:00] So good. And they go, have they have a meal together? Um, bath or mom and my command. And, and this is where we find out that, you know, Benny is an international, um, masters as an international title.
The mom's interested in the travel and the money. I'm more interested here because we quickly learn. That she is about to go play a master that she beats a grand master later. I get questions all the time when I introduce you as an international master. Right. Um, what does that mean? Um, you have, you were a national master there's ma I think I know the rankings, but can you at this point, break it down for me.
Danny: [00:24:35] Yeah. So we'll well, I was, I was almost going to ask you to break it down cause I, the way you prefaced it was really good, but maybe it's better if I, if I just do it. It's so a. A grand master is the highest title. And the long form title is international Grandmaster, but it's sort of implied because the grand master title is, um, Is a global title, I guess.
So it's just not something that needs to be said. And although it's kind of a funny, I will say this without trying to throw shade at any particular chess, people who've ever introduced themselves as international grand master, but I will say there was sort of a period there where authors were going out of their way to put IgM on a book instead of just GM international grandmasters sounded more prestigious, but it was kind of like something that became a little bit of like a.
Like he needs to pronounce himself international grand master, instead of just saying Grandmaster anyway. Nevermind. But Grandmaster was the highest idle and yes, the official long form title is international Grandmaster. The second highest title is international master, which is my title. That's me. So I'm Betty Watson, this show in a way.
I mean, if you really think about it, I kind of look like many Watts. I definitely used to wear a hat and have a knife, like many Watts. I can confirm that, um, those are all just jokes. Um, but Betty Watts is an international master, which is, and so the reason you stopped there with both of those titles and why Benny Watts was such a big deal to Mike and Matt is because.
I am and GM, the titles international master and Grandmaster can only be achieved through like international level play, which implies world travel. It implies playing in events that were, if not invitational events, they were certainly elite events in regards to the, you know, the amount of people that were there from all over the world.
So I can tell you, and then the way you get those titles, the thing that makes them different than every other title is they're not just based on rating or if you Google, like what's a grand master. Now, uh, the first thing you'll say is like, it's roughly like a twenty-five hundred feet, a rated person, and the grand master is the highest title in chess, but those two things are true, but you also have to earn what's called a performance norm.
And a norm can only be achieved in a, in an event that was, like I said, has enough people from multiple federations and enough players of, of a certain rating and enough title players. So. And in order to get those norms, you have to perform it like plus two or plus three. So when like a nine round event, you would have to get like a six, six points out of nine in order to get a norm.
And then you have to do that multiple times. And it is in addition to doing that multiple times, you also have to maintain the rating of 2,500 respectively for grand master or 2,400 for, for, uh, for international master. So the point is. It's not easy to get and because they're not easy to get there, the only titles you can't ever lose.
And, um, 
James: [00:27:32] Oh, so once you, once you're an international master Grandmaster, you can never not 
Danny: [00:27:36] become, you can never lose it. It takes, it's a, it's a complicated process to get. Uh, it, it takes multiple forms of criteria. Then you have to apply and prove that you did it. You have to have had like a record of these tournaments and that they were legit.
They were feed a governed in terms of the rules and, and you had to maintain the rating to do it. And so once you've done that, you get granted the title. I literally have the feed, a certificate in front of me right now. I'm looking at it. Daniel wrench, international master. I was awarded the title in 2009.
Um, and so. Other titles, like feed a master, um, which is basically just the rating of 2300 feet. Then there's a national master, as you, as you quoted, which is the rating of 2200 feet and, and, and USCF. So like the first person that she, you know, beats that was made to be, this was Harry beltic. Right. And he, they said he was almost a national master.
So he was about 21, I think like, 50 or something, right when we did that episode. And so he hadn't quite reached 2200 yet, which is where he would get the NM national master title. But again, national master title and master titles, those titles are recognizing the rating. They are not permanent. You can cross 2200 and be considered a master.
But if you go back below 2200, you're no longer considered a master level chess player. And I am in GM. Once you have those titles, that's why they're the only true like professional titles. Like you have to basically at one point have been investing like a professional to get those titles. And when you get it, I could, I could literally tomorrow go back to playing like a 1900 and just like, you know, just like.
God forbid have like a brain aneurysm, right. I could no longer be able to play the level of chess I play now, but I would still always be an international. 
James: [00:29:21] Got it, got it. That makes sense. So that, that, that's a good breakdown. And I, I believe we did cover this in a very, very early episode of coffee house blunders, but it's a good reminder of the rank here and how important that is, like you said, in this, in this tournament, because now she's about to play a master, um, Rudolph in this, over here.
And, um, and that's kind of good to know that this is a rank that while he, that Rudolph was a master currently, he may have not been right after he gets destroyed, um, in this. But, but that's good to know. And now one thing here I did I'd have know before we get to Rudolph the Harmon is she's talking about, you know, who.
Um, she, you know, fears, I forgot what the conversation was, but it was something about Russia and it was something I have written down in your pre forties. They said us was better than Russia. I think it was Benny or as it was Mike or matter, I think it might've been a micro math that said something about 20 years ago or whatever, you know, when, when.
W we were on top or something like that. Like was, was there a pre 1950s, 1940s era where Russia wasn't on the top? Is that what they're implying? Yeah, 
Danny: [00:30:36] not, not really. That was one of the there's one other, um, note I made and I'll save it for when you bring it up. When we talk about her being a Grandmaster later on that I made that.
You know, that I will call out as being kind of, uh, I think they do this for the drama of the show and the implication that there's a battle between like the West and the East, which does again, play, uh, play directly into the comparison, or let's say the tribute that a lot of people have said, Beth Harmon's character kind of being based on the timeline of Bobby Fischer.
Right. Um, the, you know, the Bobby Fisher. Match versus Boris Foskey in 1972. And everything that led into it was, was dominated by the storyline of, you know, the U S versus the Soviet union. Right? Literally the cold war, uh, was, was, uh, what was going on. And so they sort of imply that I will say this, like I thought about it too.
There were, you know, um, top world players in the U S if you want to talk about way back in the day on officially Paul Morphy at some point. In the late 18 hundreds was considered the best player in the world, even though they didn't have a world championship cycle, then, um, there was also, uh, you know, Frank Marshall was a, uh, one of the top.
Elite players in the world. Um, but, but even during those periods, I would, I would say that it was never really something that could have been positioned as us at one point was the perennial power of chess. Um, I would never, I would never really agree that that is an accurate depiction of. The twenties, thirties, forties.
I mean, you know, you have William Steinitz was the first world champion. Then you have a manual Lasker. Those are both Europeans. Then you have, uh, you have Jose, a cup of Blanca. He was Cuban. You have Alexandra Yohan. So like the timeline that this travels, like, there was never a us dominance. And so that was kind of an inaccurate, but I, you know, I'll be a dramatic sort of a plug, you know, That.
Yeah. So, gotcha. Okay. I'm saying, I'm saying no. Yeah. 
James: [00:32:31] Okay. Gotcha. That's what I was curious about. Cause I was like, yeah, that seems a lot. All right. Let's get to Rudolph V Harmon Rudolph as a master. Now, when we come into this match, um, Harmon is already winning. I mean, statistically here, we have it in the chess analysis board in our show notes.
You can click on that. Um, already though. Yeah, you will see, I mean, the is kind of over at this point, um, right. And I don't know what led it. We don't know what led up to these events necessarily. Um, but, uh, she, you know, Ends the game eloquently at this point. I don't know. How would you describe where we're introduced into this 
Danny: [00:33:08] match?
You're talking about the, the position of the analysis board. Um, the one will be prepared 
James: [00:33:15] start the let's start where, where, where we come in, which is, um, on the line. I'm going to call it the line. Is that accurate? 
Danny: [00:33:22] E file. But yes, go ahead. 
James: [00:33:24] We're on the e-file. And going from  is White's King, a Bishop, and then a Knight with a Rook on the F 
Danny: [00:33:34] five.
It's funny, I'm highlighting this as we go as if it's being screen recorded for a show. Cause it's just a habit for me, even though I know no one's going to see this, I'm doing it. 
James: [00:33:42] Um, and, and, and over on, over on Beth, who's playing black. She also has a Bishop, a Knight and a Rook. So if you were to come in.
It actually kind of looks like, you know, white has one more pawn, right? Um, kind of odd that there's a stack on the file going on. Um, it does look a little bit more like a Beth is in attack mode with her Knight in this, and that's sort of what we see. Beth Beth comes into play and, um, her Bishop is backing her Knight at this point.
Um, but she lets that go and moves her Knight. Who is. Um, on the F four, um, on the, on the S four square right next to the, the King takes the Bishop on the  and, and then there's a 
Danny: [00:34:31] take yeah. Ends the game. Yep. The King has to take back and then. And then we have checkmate. So first of all, again, great job.
Mott's the non chess player or not non chess professional. The two of us again, did a great job preparing this. Um, and so what I would have described this as is it had clearly been a good game, but black was about to win. Got it. Right. And I think that's what they're trying to say. Like, okay, this is a good game.
This is a tough opponent. But once again, Beth Harman, our superstar chess, prodigy is about to win. And what this is called when, uh, the Knight moves from the F four square to sort of unleash the Bishop on age six and attack the King on S3. I I'm going to say that. We're assuming everyone listening to the podcast has clicked the link.
The analysis Lincoln, and you've got the position in front of you so you can follow it. And it makes sense. The move Knight takes each two wins a Bishop for black, but it's more, more importantly, a discovery discovery is when you move a piece, unleashing a piece behind it. So it's a discovered check of the Bishop on age six to attack the King of 83.
And. The white King has no real choice, but to capture back, um, at least from a practical point of view, in theory, capturing back leads to check me in one move and they can, could move to another square like F two, but then Beth Harman would have just won a Bishop for free. She would move the Knight to safety and the game is for all intensive purposes over.
So the forcing line is to take the Bishop back. Which is what Rudolph does. And then the move Rook to de to check his mate because the pawn on G4 guards, the F three score, which would be an escape square. And though the white King is otherwise trapped by, by his own Knight and Rooks on  and the dark square Bishop.
Both guards  and protects the Brooklyn D two. So I think what they're trying to apply, and again, we keep talking about this and I've loved so much when the story on the board kind of matches the moment, just that this was a good game. She's playing tougher opponents, but she's still a beast. Right. And, and she again, beats another, another master.
And, uh, and it was, you know, very clean finish. 
James: [00:36:38] And is, is that the right move by Rudolph there? Is that what you're confirming? Like this would be 
Danny: [00:36:43] accurate? Well, the one thing that I'll say for it's funny, you asked that way. Well, one of the things that isn't totally realistic in, in several cases is people playing it out, chill, checkmate, right.
And. And again, but it's funny you say that because we've talked a lot about this as someone who kind of, you know, my job is to really oversee the chess on chess.com, but really a lot of that is like making chess more understandable, relatable, entertaining, right. And one of the problems I think a lot of people have with the chefs world is when they're falling their top game and they don't understand why someone resigned, um, instead of playing it out.
And this is sort of a disconnect. That is both elusive and kind of makes these intellectual giants of the chess world sort of like, Oh, wow, they're so smart. But I think ultimately it actually, maybe isn't the best thing for the game. And I've heard people even support tournaments that require you to play it out till checkmate so that anyone watching would always see the final conclusion.
Um, Regardless of getting into that philosophical debate and the pros and cons. I think that the movie does a good job of playing the games out till check mate. So you see the finish, um, even if it's not a hundred percent realistic that a chess master, because here's sometimes how they do it because they're doing that monster.
The problem is they also sometimes make it like Rudolph doesn't know that checkmate is coming on the next move and that, and that part of it is unrealistic. Right. A player of that level knows exactly what's happening. And because of that, they often won't play it out. So I'll check mate. Um, so, but again, I don't think this is a major sticking point in terms of the, the, the accurate depiction of the experience and her chest and, and the timeline of it all.
And I also can't totally speak cause I, you know, I wasn't playing chess in the sixties. Maybe more she masters did play up to checkmate. I don't think so because the culture that has so been so established for so long and had so much tradition when I started becoming an active player, I think that this has been the case for chess for a long time.
So other than the guy not knowing checkmates coming, the chess itself is realistic. Got it. 
James: [00:38:48] Got it. That sounds good. I would be fascinated in an, in another long form to take this game and look at alternative endings. I think that might be a fascinating. Live stream that we could do is let's get the board into the state and let's play out something different.
Right. What if he did move, um, King to F to how would that have ended? Right. How would that made have happened at the end of the day? When the analysis board, you know, doesn't move all the way black, you know, it's not made yet. Um, that'd be fascinating that, but let's move on Danny. We can only stay in.
Cincinnati for so long because 
Danny: [00:39:24] we have a plane to 
James: [00:39:25] catch planes. Apparently. So now they are sort of flying all over. This is a fun scene where her mom keeps calling into schools, um, into our school, telling her that she's sick. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. Um, but. You know, Beth keeps being featured in these different magazines of her winnings and, and, and this is where time actually jumps around and I'll get to this in general.
But the first thing that we hear her mom read off is, is stuff about, about Beth. And then again, that Beth beats a Grandmaster in Pittsburgh. That's a big jump to go from IB Rudolph a master. W we know what's about to happen with Benny cause it's our second time watching it, but then she beats a Grandmaster in Pittsburgh.
Now we don't know who this grand master is. Maybe this grand master has fallen to a 1900, like you said, but how is that? I don't know, you know, 
Danny: [00:40:17] nailed it. And I, and I guess I foreshadowed it earlier as one of the, the other few things I would bring up. Right. Like that was like kind of unnecessary now. Not improbable by the way.
Like not. Not not impossible and not even necessarily improbable. There are like cases of talented juniors who are. Rising so fast that an 18, 1900 player could beat a grand master, like in a one-off game. But, but it's highly unlikely, super rare. And it's kind of presented in a weird way where they're like both proud of Beth, like being at the 1800 level.
And then also like, and yet she'd beat a Grandmaster in Pittsburgh. I don't, I mean, I don't know. Maybe the more I, the more I talk about it, the second time I saw it, I was less critical than the first time to be honest, because I was like, well, You know, it can happen, right. A guy like Hikaru Nakamura when he was coming up.
Right. He would, you know, he would have that kind of talent. Right. And still be making a lot of other mistakes and lose to other players even of the master level. But, you know, maybe he could in a one-off game, beat a Grandmaster. So let's say that it's actually not. Not on, on reasonable to believe that that could be the case.
And yeah, I think that if it did happen, it probably would be something they wrote about in a magazine as far as recognizing a talented person. So, so, but, but what I wanted to say is the issue I have with it is they definitely apply. I mean, we never ever see a game where Beth Harman loses. Right. Like, I mean, I know in later episodes we will, but I'm not spoiling it.
Right. Um, so. That's the kind of thing it's like chess is such a journey and a struggle that you're going to be losing too, at that level. You're going to be losing to a lot of master level players for a while, and you're not just going to like, be beating them and grandmasters at 1800 level all the time.
It's just not a thing. 
James: [00:42:06] Yeah. The, it sort of gives it a false sense of reality that we believe that Beth is invincible at this part in this point. You know what I mean? Because we haven't seen that at all. And. That's a fascinating 
Danny: [00:42:17] perspective on it. Yeah. 
James: [00:42:19] Yeah. All right. So I want to get to the next part, which is they're flying and her mom brings up, uh, a big tournament in Houston that they could do over Christmas.
And I love this part because she's like, you know, we can go to the beauty spa, girly things, and Beth goes, Yes mother, 
Danny: [00:42:37] because I don't even care about doing those things, but yes, mother, 
James: [00:42:41] give me chest. All right, here we go. Now then we see them on a plane heading to Houston. It is a national plane. Oh, here's where our timelines are fuzzy because we are meant to believe that in-between the 1963 mansion Cincinnati and the 1966, um, match in Las Vegas.
That we're still in the same exact. Time error. We're not positive or we're not sure how much time has gone is the Houston match still in 1963? I say ne I say it is not, um, only because the plane that they are flying in in this national plane is a Boeing seven 27, 100. 
Danny: [00:43:25] Oh gosh. Here comes some, some modern knowledge nuggets of how closely you follow this.
James: [00:43:30] Now I love it. This national plane, um, flew from, um, No. I mean, national flew to Houston from 1956 to 1980. So that's accurate now this Boeing seven 27, 100. Was not introduced until 1964. So it would be, yeah. Yeah. 
Danny: [00:43:54] So you said I was going to be impressed with some of the, uh, the length of what you went to for episode three and you are not disappointing, 
James: [00:44:01] sir.
So this plane, so this time area, it would be impossible for them to be in 1963. So we have progressed a year and I am going to say. I am okay with them magically going into 1964 and going that means they're about to go into 1965, um, which is when she meets the girls and does the things, um, which makes sense that this, this timeline does match up.
And we'll talk about it a little bit more, but remember now we are in the, the winter of, of 1964, and that's the only way possible that this can happen. However, Danny. I don't know how they took a national flight from Lexington, Kentucky to Houston, because there is no national flights from Kentucky or any surrounding States.
Ever. 
Danny: [00:44:55] Okay. A lot to unpack there. A lot of Tom, but go ahead. So the 
James: [00:44:59] only way that they could do this possibly is that this is their second flight. Okay. This is the only way they would have had to do a stop over somewhere. It's impossible for them to get to Kentucky to Houston. So I'm going to say, maybe I'd have to look at it.
I didn't look at all the details here. I'd have to say maybe. They either went down to Florida, which was the major, major hub of national in this time era. Um, maybe Jacksonville, hard to say, Tampa, maybe the Louisiana, maybe to Louisiana down there is a Louisiana Houston route. I'm pretty sure. So that could be possible, Danny, but it, we don't get to see it.
But I do want to point out that as somebody who flies a lot, it has me thinking it has me thinking. 
Danny: [00:45:44] Well, this is the, this is where you're much more of the expert qualified to comment than myself as the, the chess master. I'll just say, it's funny, you broke that thing down super specifically, because I was going to argue, like, to me, the way they set up the episode, it feels like the Houston event.
And like the yes, mother thing is immediately following Cincinnati. Right? I mean, it kind of feels like that. Right? So. I think overall, obviously we're, we're kind of having fun here. It's our, you know, our podcasts we're allowed to do what we want. Right. But I mean, overall, I think we know what they're, what they're setting the tone for is very clear.
These two ladies are doing a lot of travel. Beth Harman is. Making a name for herself getting mentioned in magazines, beating grand masters in Pittsburgh, and she's on her way toward becoming a dominant kind of, not, not maybe a dominant force, but an up and comer here on not just like the local Kentucky scene, but the national scene.
So I'm just going to say all of that is obviously a big sense. And that's where they kind of get away with movie magic until they run into a guy like James Monta, Magno who kind of reviews and understands. So if, what. You're saying about the seven 27 not being available until 1964, then I literally. I have to concede.
There's no way that the Houston event was right after the Cincinnati event. Yeah. So you're right. 
James: [00:47:07] Here's how they fix their timeline. Now we're gonna, we're gonna, I'm gonna jump to the, to the end and then we're going to come back to where we're currently at. So remember, we're on a plane to Houston currently.
Um, how this works is that in, in the next scene, um, in the future, she, she is invited. With the girls, um, to come and hang out right with them. And she tells him that she hopes to be going to Las Vegas when they're not impressed with Houston. Um, in the next few months now we know that the loss of Vegas open happens in April, specifically in 1966.
And. We know that that conversation that she had with the girls took place in 1965 before April, because she tells towns that she was going and she w she was all set to go in 1965, but her mother got sick and decided to stay behind. So that is how they somehow magically bridge the missing year together into this.
Um, and, and that's why I think they're on a national pain plane in 1964 on their way to Houston. 
Danny: [00:48:07] It makes sense. And they're doing a great job at this point, kind of, uh, planting the seeds of what's to come and sorts of things that could affect best chess tournaments and her mom being sick. Which again, I won't say anything else about that.
Cause you'll be mad at me. We've got a lot of episodes to get to, but okay. You're right. They fixed the timeline. I love it. You know, talking about the, the night with the girls, that's an awkward right. Social event. They also do some other things there. Right. They, uh, The life magazine. 
James: [00:48:33] That's probably my most awkward moment of this episode.
Danny: [00:48:36] Okay. Um, 
James: [00:48:37] the, you know, there's a series once she gets back, which is. Um, she has this interview with the time magazine and then she's invited by the girls. So now we're really into acceptance mode, right? The girls are accepting her. She, I love the scene where, um, she's signing, um, chess review magazines with articles on her, on it.
And the one guy with the braces goes, we started a chess club, like, so there's an all right. How awkward is this life magazine shoot? Um, in general, they're making her hold all this stuff and then. Also at the same time she lies to the newspaper. She says that she was in the basement with the Mr. Scheibel learning chess at age eight, which is a falsity by the way, because later in the episode, she says that she was nine years old when she started learning chess.
And we know she was nine year old and that's just really odd to me. 
Danny: [00:49:23] Yeah. Why would she lie? I don't think that, I think that either, either you caught them making a mistake, a cinematic mistake, or it was just that she wanted to be considered, like she had learned chess, younger, you know, she's clearly a damaged, you know, we're kind of like skipping over some of the stuff that I think is the, uh, the whole series takes it's.
I don't want to say darker turns, but as you learn more about, you know, she's been through this, like these traumas, you said how the episodes, this particular one started with, you know, we're back to realizing just how, just how, um, horrific her relationship with her mother was. Right. And everything she went through.
And then you've got this like life magazine, which is like, kind of a, a really kind of weird and kind of leaves you feeling kind of achy interview. But obviously the woman interviewing her is sort of implying like, Hey, you know, There's probably something wrong with you, right. Because you're really good at chess.
That's basically what she leaves her with. And the chess is more of an obsession than it is like a healthy hobby. And that, that, that implication is maybe directly even said. Right. And then, um, and then what I was getting to with the night with the girls is like, you've got this like, This moment where she kind of walks into the study and kind of sees the alcohol.
Right. And so the reason I'm getting into all that is because we already know no, we've got the, the, you know, what happened in, in the first episode and, you know, the, the little green pills that she's reintroduced to when she sees that her mother has the sort of, you know, the, uh, what does the mom call it?
Uh, the tranquil, um, tranquility medicine. Right? But then you also start to see that as these other challenges are getting super intense, For Beth to deal with most of them social, like on the chess board, on the chess board, she seems to be at home. Right. But all of the other challenges of her life to, to fit in, or, or at least know how not to challenge the social girl group, this interview where she's a star, like she clearly is like looking for some ways to deal with the pressures that she doesn't really know how to handle, you know?
And that was something that I took out of this episode too, that they sort of foreshadowed really well. And, and yeah, I don't even know what to say. Sorry. Yep. Well, I think 
James: [00:51:28] you're absolutely right. I think I have down here, acceptance fame. She already has it on the board. Now in real life question I have to ask you is, um, um, um, do you enjoy playing bridge, Danny?
Danny: [00:51:41] Uh, first of all, uh, actually, no, sorry. I was going to say yes, but no, I don't, I don't enjoy playing bridge at all. 
James: [00:51:47] I heard that chess players enjoy bridge. 
Danny: [00:51:50] Uh, some do, um, a lot just players, you know, these days play poker too. Um, I think just it like poker because it's a little more. Uh, they like the elements of the unknown in poker that you don't have incomplete information games like chess.
Um, but no, you know, bridge is maybe, maybe in that time period was a more appropriate kind of comparison. Um, I don't know that I know of a lot of modern day chess players that are super into bridge, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this one with a grain of salt and say, yes. You know, it's okay to be in a bridge if you're a chess player.
James: [00:52:20] Yeah, you do. That's what I like to say. Um, I, I think, I think I have figured out just via my notes here and my, my, um, conversation with you, why she said, um, that she was eight years old, we're going to get to it in a few pages of my notes. But before we, before we leave the girl's house, which was, again, one of my favorite scenes where the girls are terrible.
I mean, children. Terrible people in general and they invite her over kind of, despite her anyways, they're not impressed by her. At all, Beth is enterprise by them, but I will make a quick point here. The TV that is shown on here is a, uh, stern radio straps. First PA Patriot 16, GW one four, four, three seven on television.
Danny: [00:53:06] Yes, 
James: [00:53:07] the Patriot 16 GW four, three seven. It's a classic. It's a German set. I don't know if they're making any. Um, references here to German chess players at the time. However, this was a German set, accurate, I just want to make accurate. That was manufactured in 1961. So it was accurate for the time era and they have it spot on.
There's a link in the show notes to radio museum, where I found this information very fast. 
Danny: [00:53:30] Well, I love it because again, all these, uh, the MOTS angles where you're really. You know, trying to stay focused on the timeline where they got the details, right. You know, where we, we give credit to things like that, to the point where you literally are listening the model number of a German Patriot television set, um, which is why we also have to point out when they mess up things like in the last podcast episode where they didn't have the date listed with the full month and year on chest review magazine.
Right. So that's good, good stuff. I love it. 
James: [00:53:59] Now here, we then had to Las Vegas, 1966, which then has you thinking, has it been three years? And that's what, yeah. Literally stopped or wound a bunch. And I had to this arc of time was very confusing and they are going to play the U S open. Now, fascinatingly enough in 1966, us open was played at the Stardust hotel.
Um, and it was won by Banco scoring seven, um, um, seven wins, I guess, seven scoring seven wins first. That's what I wrote down 
Danny: [00:54:25] here. Uh, first of all, good shit. I did not go to those links, but Banco is a direct, uh, well, Banco is a multiple time us champion and a legend of the global and United States chess community, and, uh, exactly who would be winning that event in 66.
So obviously you already confirmed that that's facts, but I'm just confirming even further because we keep talking about, um, how much of it is fact or fiction. In fact, we had a. God, I could pull up Slack. We had a great tweet yesterday from, um, the rather famous person on Twitter and have to find it, but who actually said, you know, just finished the Queen's gambit.
It was awesome. Like, was it really fiction? Kind of a question Mark. And we responded and kind of said, you know, the, the storyline itself is, you know, the story itself is fictional, but in spirit and in terms of the references, it's actually very factual. Right. And, and the pal Benko, um, you know, thing, you just looked up.
Even though it's not actually mentioned on the show. I would say that we already know that in these shows, they're doing constant references to not just real games, but the great legends of chess players. And so, um, they did a great job again, the fact that they would even say that Beth goes to Vegas in 1966, where we know there was an event there, one by Pell Banco.
That's pretty good stuff. I agree. 
James: [00:55:38] Yeah. And it was fascinating. I was trying to look up this hotel that they went to the, the Mariposa hotel. I couldn't find any really references to Las Vegas in this era. So I think they were, you know, without having to buy licenses. 
Danny: [00:55:50] Yeah. I was just going to say that 
James: [00:55:52] that's my assumption, but it is a beautiful representation.
And Townes is back. Danny towns is back and I was nine. 
Danny: [00:56:00] All right, guy, we love towns. Right. And he, uh, he's obviously been hearing a lot more about Beth Harmon. Right. He was 
James: [00:56:05] 18. He was 18 now. 
Danny: [00:56:07] Yep. And, uh, 
James: [00:56:09] and he's a Korean, but now Townes is officially a creeper in this episode. Yeah, yeah. A 
Danny: [00:56:14] little bit. Yeah, go for it.
James: [00:56:16] Anyways. I don't know. I love the towns is back in our lives. I love towns and I know that there's this instant attraction there, but could he have been any more creepy luring her back to his room? 
Danny: [00:56:26] Well, especially because of let's see, can I talk about all this or later episodes? It's a little more confirmed, especially because of town's his partner who is also in the room.
James: [00:56:39] Roger. Oh, I love the interruption by Roger and I have written down it friend or lover, 
Danny: [00:56:44] right? Exactly. I called it. I called him partner. I think that that's what makes towns a little more creepy and a little bit more. I think the whole era is sort of like suggestive of. Well, I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a weird thing to talk about, like, first of all, she's 18, right?
So she's obviously coming into her own as a woman and thinking about, you know, men romantically as she clearly has an infatuation with towns. Right. That's all okay to say. Right. And then the fact that he invites her back to her room, I think initially it could be like, all right, well, you know, maybe that's okay and that they're there to work on chess, but the interaction that goes down in the room definitely, you know, suggests that even towns might be thinking of more than a.
Chess photography relationship with her. And then all of a sudden here comes Roger. And you know, as we'll get into in later episodes, I think it was sort of like, they were really clearly trying to imply, Oh, talents is not who we thought he was, which then you're right. If then if that's the case, then in hindsight, you look at all the talents, his behavior and go, yo, bro, what's wrong with you?
Yeah. 
James: [00:57:47] Yeah. That's very true. That's very true. But I will still, 
Danny: [00:57:50] I don't know how else to say that. 
James: [00:57:52] I will say though, I do love Roger's outfits. I love what he comes in on. I love his swimsuit. 
Danny: [00:57:59] Yeah. 
James: [00:57:59] Roger point. I love everything about her so far. Roger. You're my best friend. 
Danny: [00:58:05] Roger's not a character that comes back again.
So I can just say that anyway. Go ahead. 
James: [00:58:09] Um, so that we get into this really interesting scene. Where she's describing the games. Um, so it goes right into right. She says she beats someone from Oklahoma, then San Francisco, she said she played the Marshall. I don't know what that means. Yeah. So  
Danny: [00:58:27] a direct reference to the person.
I just mentioned earlier, Frank Marshall at one point was the best player in the U S and one of the best players in the world. Um, But, uh, like I said, not dominant or good enough that we could say to Frank Marshall was a justifiable reference by Mike or Matt to say that the U S at some point was a perennial powerhouse.
It really wasn't the case, but Frank Marshall, it was a real chess player. And the Marshall, um, is a system in the Roy Lopez and exactly the kind of thing that Beth Harvard would be playing. I see. Gotcha. 
James: [00:58:57] So that's really cool, actually, that, that little, that little throwback now in a Morphe, but to Marshall there, let me see Benny.
And they sent the very interested line that maybe you could break down for me, which is, he says Queen's gamut decline is so well-respected. 
Danny: [00:59:13] So I think on the one hand, it's a little bit of just dialogue to like the overall name of the show. Like maybe they're just trying to keep people on the edge of their seat about.
What is it about Benny in regards to the future of the show? I really took it as that, like they're like, uh, Benny is saying the Queen's gambit declined is so well respected. Like they're trying to just make sure Benny is seen as, what is he kind of like. The person who Beth wants to be. I see. He's like the best, right?
And the Queensland with decline is a good and well-respected system by black. And it's sort of implying that it's a more positional advanced kind of approach. It's more of a Soviet approach because the other option is the Queen's gambit accepted. Which is a much sharper system. It's a much more kind of just complicated sort of tactical mess.
And from what I take is what they're implying is accepting. The Queen's gambit is what somebody might do when they're first introduced to the queen scam, but declining the Queen's gambit is like, it shows, you know, your stuff because you understand the taking the pawn in the Queen's gambit is actually.
Probably not the best thing for black to do so that's but I think all that dialogue is I'm kind of reading into it a little bit as a chess entertainer, not just chess player to just say that to me, what they're clearly trying to do is just consistently set up that what Benny says is like almost. It's like she's, she wants to be as good as Benny.
Right. And everything he says is slightly kind of like, I know better than you and you all. And we both know it. And you also wish you were as good as me and you're not there yet kind of thing. 
James: [01:00:47] Got it. Yeah. And you know, we, we hear her describing Benny to her, I think to her mom at this point. And this is the reference to the times article.
Are you ready for this? She goes, I heard that he, um, beat NY Dorf in Copenhagen. At 1948, which means Benny was eight. 
Danny: [01:01:06] Yeah, that's unrealistic. 
James: [01:01:08] And, but see, but see if she heard that and Benny was eight, she told the times article that she was eight when she started learning. Right. In some weird that's the only thing I can think of.
Danny: [01:01:20] Right. I think that that's more likely than them making an age mistake. Anyway, I think it's all subtly suggestive of Ben Harmon wants to be a chess legend and. She's not totally an honest person. I mean, we already know that from, you know, the secretly developing substance abuse problems that she has to the little green pills, let alone what's to come.
Right. And that's okay. Right. She's been through a lot of trauma and she's a, she's a flawed human being is the best way to say it rather than not dishonest, but she clearly is flawed and she wants to be a chess star. And she wants to be Benny Watts. That makes total sense. It makes sense. The catch, by the way.
James: [01:01:55] Yeah, it was really weird. I mean, I just got to what we were talking about on the podcast and I wrote it down. I'm like, Oh, those two eights match up, but it's funny. Cause she says that, you know, Benny doesn't scare her, but bore golf does who we actually saw in a chest review article when they're in Houston, we skipped over it a little bit.
It was very short, um, is of as a real person, I assume. 
Danny: [01:02:15] No. No, no. And, and, um, well, I, I feel like I've mentioned this a little bit in our first podcast breakdown or golf is exactly the kind of character that is perfect for the show. Cause he's a fictional character, but he clearly depicts who I would argue as Boris Spassky, but silly bore Goff.
Okay. The name is similar. I'm sure there's literally someone named Pacific for golf. Um, but the facility board golf is not a. Wheelchair champion, nor was he a strong chess player of any of these errors that we've discussed so far? So I think he's just meant to depict, you know, and as we're going to learn, as he becomes more a part of the show, just the legendary untouchable figure of Soviet chess and that period.
Um, but no, I, I believe, uh, people have said he's pretty much seems mostly based on Boris Spassky and in regards to the guy that was the man to beat, but you could argue. You know, at the time, like, is he a combination of all of these Russian legends into one? I think that's, I think that's a very plausible theory.
You're talking, you know, you're talking Miquel bot v-neck, you're talking Boris Boskey, you're talking facili Smith's loft, uh, who, uh, you're talking, you know, Bronstein everybody. So he's just meant to depict like the best of the best. And that's who the Russians were. The Soviets were at the 
James: [01:03:33] time. Gotcha.
Gotcha. That makes sense. It's it's fascinating because the, you know, often they're blending reality, right? They're talking about real players, these spectrometers. So it's, it's a good line to, to follow, especially if you're just watching it, like we are here, I'll tell you my other favorite part of this episode.
It's, it's a little things that really may enjoy, you know, really bring a smile to my face. So, you know, like I said, the first one was when she goes, hi, I'm Beth Harman and the guys go shit, you know, and you just get straight. My favorite is, is Benny awkward. Moment where he's talking to this gentleman, um, over coffee or something, and Benny goes, uh, Q G Q, G Q, G, D, over the Slav.
Right. And he's like, and that's it it's as if he says this and the guy's like, aha. And then just walks away, like, like just, I don't know. It's like Benny at this point, there's this. Full of himself mentality. We seen him just analyze the chess board, kind of be this sort of know it army he's an international master, you know, just like you and no one ever.
Um, you know, just a little, a little full of your stuff, numbers game. Um, you know, he has a lot of knowledge college, but I feel like sometimes when there are individuals or you have a lot of knowledge or you're at this top of your class, sometimes you're. Your brain. And the topics that you're talking about are at a different level.
And Benny here is this awkward moment where he's trying to explain something. This que GED versus the Slav, which is, um, a chest opening, the Slav defense, um, looking@thechest.com forums. I don't quite know anything about that, but, and then obviously Ben is feeling good about himself, but this guy has no idea what he's talking about.
Just kind of walks away. 
Danny: [01:05:11] Right. So the, the slaw is actually like a type of QED, which is Queen's gambit declined. So that also plays into what, um, Benny was saying earlier that, you know, Beating the Queen's gambit declined is the way to go. Right. Got it. Um, so the slob is a slob. Defense is really, it's almost just a move order training.
Zishan from the Queen's gambit. Um, when you, when you decline the Queen's gambit, traditionally, you do it with your King Paul on the movies pawn to . If we're using algebraic or for black, it would be politicking three. Uh, back in this day, um, the slob is pulling to Queen's Bishop three, uh, or, or ponder C6 if you're black.
And so anyway, it's just. The only thing you take out of it is, like you said, it's a great scene that kind of like you already accurately described. So I won't write Betty how he's perceived the other guy being like aha. Right. And also it's very good chess terminology because. Yeah, it's a hundred percent accurate.
I love it. And 
James: [01:06:05] now, you know, I know Q G D is like 
Danny: [01:06:09] the swab defense is, is a type of, is, is a way to decline the Queen's gambit. 
James: [01:06:14] Got it. That's cool. I mean, and I, and I like how this is all, you know, building up on top of each other and, and then we get to, you know, Benny V Harmon. I mean, this is cool. And our inner shownotes, we have at least the opening.
I have it about how many moves in 10 moves in here. I have 
Danny: [01:06:30] a, for the opening new. 
James: [01:06:31] Yeah, it's a Sicilian defense, um, which moves into all sorts of fun stuff. There's a night orphan. There there's a , there's a,
a flank variation. There's all sorts of good stuff going on. I love when I was watching this too, because I believe the opening was, um, up to move nine was Lars hog versus. Christo Alexia. Yes. In the, at least in the chest analyzer, like it was up to move nine, like a real, all the plays were from that match.
Danny: [01:07:04] Well, and you can search games on chess.com to see, to see master games. Like you're like you're referencing. And, and, um, in fact, even up to Bishop B seven, we still actually had, it was Whitman versus Elnett ill Elon shit. Sorry. Um, and, uh, anyway, but yeah, this is just good stuff. And again, we already know that Beth is a Sicilian, you know, she's a sharp.
Sharp player. She's an aggressive player. She wants to play Sicilians for both sides, you know, she's uh, she's um, Again, very, very developed on the character of Bobby Fischer in regards to the opening repertoire. Um, but yeah, the night off is defined as to move five 86 for those following. Uh, James is link the mood by day six is officially a night orf Bishop to C4 is the.
So they actually are opening because of the lip Nitsky attack, but it's actually a sozan when you play Bishop C4, you're kind of officially in association. Um, and, and we go back to calling it Osos in the moment black plays , which is a Chevron and against structure. Um, if black had played something like , for example, instead of , it would have stayed in the  attack.
You can test that yourself on the Lincoln openings for, um, But really I would argue that Aesics is kind of the only way that top players would play against Bishop C4. So you're in a  sozan attack and the rest is a as Benny Watson, Beth Horman history. 
James: [01:08:29] It truly is. There's a lot going on in this, in this end game here.
That really is fascinating. Her, she, she attempts to, you know, I think what she's looking for, uh, specifically is. The last move here is where really confounds her. She, she takes, um, um, Benny's night, uh, over here with her Bishop. And what confounds her is that Benny takes it with his G 
Danny: [01:09:01] yeah, the pollen. 
James: [01:09:02] You know, why, what happened here?
Like why did this throw the entire match into this tizzy at this 
Danny: [01:09:08] point? Um, yeah, it's funny. Cause she talks about that later, right? Um, the, um, so. Both are playable G takes F six is a, uh, kind of so funny because it's taken me back. I love the way you're framing these questions. James is making me think about these positions in ways that I haven't in a really long time.
And I mean that in the best way, because like, we're just like, I'm not talking chess with another international master here. I am sounding like Benny Watts. I'm not trying to throw shade. What I'm saying is you ask questions in a great way. Cause you're like, yeah, like what's the fundamental, critical part of this position because at a high level, I could say this is a very standard position.
White GTX of six is not that big of a deal because if we're looking at the position at the end of James's link, everyone. Even though black has the double pawns on F six and F seven black has compensation for it because of the Bishop pair, which is take a look at the bishops on  that dark square Bishop in particular.
Kind of eventually has no rival meaning white in order to make the double pawns took on F six with the Bishop parting ways with Beth parted ways with the dark square Bishop. So a black has, is like this longterm kind of compensation of the dark square Bishop. It's not an aggressive approach from Benny.
It's a very positional one. And these double pawns. Are very standard in a night or Sicilian structured. They're actually very useful. In some ways they, they protect a lot of squares. They protect the King and obviously, you know, we're breaking down an episode that's called double pawns. Right. And, um, Before we get into what the other, maybe symbolic features of that reference.
Might've been this game here. And the fact that she'd lost to Betty Watts specifically because of the move G takes F six, which created the double death. Pawns is the, is the chess. You know, the chest depiction to the, to the episode title it's, it's this decision that was sort of beyond her chest knowledge at the time that he would willingly create what is considered a positional weakness to F Poland's on the same file in order to slowly out her, which is like, he gets the G file for his Rook, which opens up.
He eventually had the dark square Bishop advantage. So again, just. As I keep saying, they nailed it. It's brilliant. In terms of it's the episode title directly relating to what happened on the board that was beyond her chest knowledge and were Benny Watts proved to still be the better player at this time in their careers and just fricking awesome.
They nailed it. 
James: [01:11:38] And my favorite kind of end here too, is Mr. Scheibel shows up again and he goes, you resign now, right at the, at the end of this game, because she's been out plays. She hasn't been made yet, but she knows it's over at this point. And. She even sort of admits here that she was out for a win.
Benny had had one draw previously, which means that she only needed to draw to win. Cause she was undefeated at this point, so she could have just drawn, played it out and she would have won. Um, so really at this point, it's either you go all in and try to crush it. Right. You don't even need to crush it.
The only reason to crush it is to show off really, you know, um, in an extra way. I mean, it's great if you win, but she doesn't have to. The only thing that's bad is if she loses and now she's coached champions, which, um, apparently according to her mom happens all the time, which will double fact check that on Danny.
But I imagine it does, but that she even says she sort of got caught up in trying to destroy him. 
Danny: [01:12:42] Right. No, a hundred percent. And 
James: [01:12:45] it happens. 
Danny: [01:12:46] I think you, you nailed every aspect of it. I heard that he'd added any chest context. Yeah. I mean, coach champions, geo does happen all the time. In fact, it's actually more common at the high levels of chess that you have a tie for first in an open event like this, the U S open, then it would be that someone wins it clear.
It's actually, so a great reference by the mom and very accurate from the writers of the show hundred percent realistic that you would get a tie. And again, very realistic too, you know, reference Beth Harman sort of chess weaknesses. She has characteristics that she wanted more than just. She could have just gone for the draw, but she didn't write.
She wanted more, 
James: [01:13:25] she wanted more. I do love by the way in this tournament where Benny and her playing there's this it's not a digital board, but there's this board lit up on the back, um, showing all of their moves. I'm pretty sure they do this in real life where it's like, uh, Not everyone can be crowded around the board.
So it's almost like you're playing bingo. Right? It's like the bingo board was a chess board and I loved it because it didn't look digital. It looked like someone was moving the pieces. Alongside of it is really cool. I just thought it was really neat. Um, of the era aesthetics of being in Vegas, um, type of casino asked what it would look like to play chess in a, you know, at an Ottawa.
And I loved it, 
Danny: [01:14:04] which is great. And for the entertainment of the show, it's like Vegas being Vegas and chess being in Vegas. I can tell you no chess. Organizers would ever make a demo board look that sexy. So just that part of it was pure Hollywood. I loved it. I have never seen a demo board that looks as good as that.
And we'll never see a demo board that looks that good. And a Chester proved me wrong. The next time you want to organize the national open L low soft that's right out low SOF. I'm talking to you, the national open let's make a demo board that looks like that. Ready? Sorry. Moving on. 
James: [01:14:33] I would love it. So double ponds, we now know the meaning behind it.
It's actually leads us to her leads to her demise. Um, in this one. And D is there any sort of. W we do think openings and exchanges had some reference to, to her and to this. Do we think double ponds has any like life, you know, Beth Harmon 
Danny: [01:14:54] takeaways here. What I took out of it. And maybe again, I'm just, you know, at this point now I'm just a human, not a chess player.
Right. I, I explained exactly what double pawns references in regards to the Xs knows it is Benny Watson's, double F ponds and that critical GTX F six decision that she talks about with her mother and, and goes over it. I thought double ponds was kind of referencing how I feel like a poem is like, you're kind of.
In the beginning of the game, sort of learning the ropes people. Some people would say like you're a pawn in the bigger game of things. Right. And I felt like there were just moments in the episode where like both her and her mother kind of like were kind of like learning things about the chess world and things that were going on, which kind of made them feel like a couple of pawns, right?
Not necessarily doubled the doubled F pause is a direct Chester, but a couple of pawns in this bigger game that's going on in the chess world. Maybe that's how they felt at times. And so that was the reference or note I made of it. Um, it could just be Mike and Matt, there were a couple of double bonds, you know what I'm talking about?
No, get it. But you know, maybe you and I are a couple of double ponds, 
James: [01:15:57] Roger and towns, double bonds 
Danny: [01:15:59] who knows double ponds. Okay. 
James: [01:16:01] We do see more pairs right. Where we see we, we, and we see the outlier here. Who's the non double pawn. Benny Benny solo, Benny, the Ben stir buddy. Then he plays the double ponds.
So there's the, you know, I dunno, uh, I don't know if there's any 
Danny: [01:16:16] indication and I would be remiss to be a couple of double ponds if we also don't read the comment that came in, why don't you go ahead and read the email we got? Cause I just remember that and we can't end the episode without giving credit where credit's due.
James: [01:16:27] It's very true. You know, every single episode that we've been going through, we have these listed on both Danny's YouTube, of course, on your favorite podcast player, but also at blenders RFM, you can leave comments on a specific episode. You can leave it on his YouTube. You can email us. There's an email contact button on blunders, RFM.
We love, what did you love about the episode? Were there anything that we missed in the episode? You want us to go in deeper and a David Morrison here, he reaches out to us and he said, Thanks for making this podcast. I'm going to paraphrase here. This is the best podcast I've ever listened to in my life and paraphrase.
Um, but I can't believe you haven't mentioned the novel by Walter Tevis on which the show is based. Danny, why did you forget this important fact? 
Danny: [01:17:09] A hundred percent, right? I was just going to blame you for that. Um, the, uh, so yeah, the Queen's gambit by Walter Tevis. Um, if you look at the breakdown, I did have this Queens gambit series on Netflix.
When it first came out is with Jen Shahani over@thechest.com YouTube channel, which is YouTube slash jazz. Maybe we'll try to have a link that directly goes to that video. You will note that I started off that particular breakdown, our quick sort of synopsis of how much we liked the queen, but yeah. With a out and acknowledgement of the Walter Tevis novel, not novel for the record.
I just want to say that. So it's not that I didn't know. And, and you're right. I think James and I just got right into the, you know, the entertainment and, you know, you know what it was, where we've been swept up in the moment. So forgive us. We've just been swept up in the moment. Breaking down the chest breaking on Netflix.
But of course, um, it is a, it is based on the novel Walter Tevis. And I'm going to say something that I bet you don't know is coming out of my mouth here in a second, James, we have been hearing rumors. Of a potential season two. 
James: [01:18:09] Oh my goodness. 
Danny: [01:18:11] Now it's so loose yet. I don't even only people who listen to this podcast will, will get that.
So hopefully you, you made all the way to the end for that little knowledge nugget. But if, if rumors we're hearing are true, I wonder if by the time our breakdown of the Queen's gambit in all, all seven slash eight or whatever these podcast episodes we're going to do. I wonder if we'll hear anything more official.
James: [01:18:32] That'd be amazing. I'm always waiting for that. No Netflix things to say it's official. The next season is coming or been confirmed. Um, yeah, I'm excited now. I, I will say this. Um, I also didn't know that it was based on a novel. I'd read the Wikipedia page. Thank you very much, but I don't like to read. So I will never read this novel.
I'm more of a visual learner. Um, I know how to read. I like to point that out. I know how to read, um, but I don't necessarily enjoy reading novels. I 
Danny: [01:19:01] feel like if I just continue to give you rope here, just how far will you go with your, I don't know where you're going. Like I know how to read. I know, I don't go to the school for kids who don't read good with Derek Zoolander.
Anyway, 
James: [01:19:14] I will say this. I was the Microsoft. We have all these different events. In-house where they bring in guest speakers all the time. And they brought a Matthew McConaughey, um, to do a talk. 
Danny: [01:19:26] You saw Matthew McConaughey in a talk. 
James: [01:19:28] I mean, virtually. 
Danny: [01:19:29] Oh, Oh yeah. 
James: [01:19:31] I, I, it on campus. You could actually go and see them in person, but you know, global pandemic, so right.
Um, so one of our, um, my fellow coworkers gets to interview Matthew McConaughey and they were talking about Greenlight's his new book. And a lot of just, you know, when you get Matthew McConaughey talking about anything, which would be fantastic to talk about Jess, by the way. Um, even if he doesn't enjoy chess, just having Matthew McConaughey talk about anything is relatively fantastic.
Right. Um, so I got caught up and I was like, wow, this like, this book sounds fantastic. What is the journey? And he wrote it at Sammy. Didn't want to ghost write or anything like that. So I immediately want an Amazon bought the book and Heather is like, why did you, you know, you're not going to read it. I was like, yeah, but it's going to look really nice.
Behind me on every single podcast I, and in live stream, I do. Someone's going to be like, Ooh, that guy intellectual over 
Danny: [01:20:17] there. Yeah, no, I love it. I mean, sometimes people do buy, you know, there's actually you and I can now just start a whole podcast, which would be more traditional to our other blunders podcasts.
This brings up so much for me, man. Like where, like, we've been talking about the psychology of why people buy things like, like books. Cause what you're buying is you're buying motivation. You're buying like self motivation of like, you will, you will want to do this. Like the reason people buy chest opening books is they're probably two things, the potential of improving and motivation to do it because they think if I do this, I'll do it right.
And it's really, there's all kinds of psychology about that. But anyway, um, I want to read one other comment, cause it was the only one of relevance that came into our YouTube, uh, version of episode two, which from our boy Julian, Andrews, um, who, who said, or, or girl Juliana. Andrews. I should, Julian is a name I don't necessarily know off the top of my head.
So Julian Andrews, um, guy or gal. Uh, I just love the end of his comment and I can read the whole thing. But, uh, comments says also on the subject of the librarian, in my experience, librarians know some random things about a wide variety of topics. So it could be that she knew the GMs were a thing and that Kappa blanket was one great chess player.
So that therefore she just sort of assumed he must've been a GM and that kind of checks out. Cause remember when Beth Horman's talking to the library, it is after the year of 1950, where I said  started awarding official international titles, right. So it was after the year 1950 and she would know of cup of Blanca cause he was a world champion.
So it's possible. She just said it that way and that it wasn't actually a mistake as I pointed out. So anyway, just wanted to give credit where credit was due. I guess the timeline checks out for that to check out with the writing. So. 
James: [01:21:56] Very cool. And I will talk about one last thing in pop culture. Here is, um, the Heather and I were big fans of the bachelor nation, bachelor bachelorette going on right now.
Um, I listened to a podcast on the ringer network called bachelor party with Juliet Littman, big fan. I've never met her, but that'd be cool. Cause she talked a lot about bachelor and bachelorette and has guests on this week's bachelorette bachelor party podcast. They were talking about how one of the contestants, um, is, is HS player 
Danny: [01:22:23] actual.
Plays 
James: [01:22:25] chess. They think it's one of the most sexy games. Like they're like, not only is it intelligent, but he's a gamer it's like, and it's chess. Right. It's as sexy as bored. They called it chess, the sexiest board game out there alive. 
Danny: [01:22:37] That's so fricking funny. This is totally the Queen's gambit. On Netflix, Beth Harmon effect.
I just, that, that was something that never would have been said, except for in total jest and mockery of chess of chess nerd. So that's awesome. Yeah, 
James: [01:22:52] I'm going to go find it. And in fact, I think it would be really fun as, um, Is to attempt to, to get one of those people, like on, on jet.com playing some games, seriously, 
Danny: [01:23:01] I need that clip and we're going to tweet it at them and we're going to try to get them involved, you know?
Um, for sure. That is awesome. Yeah. 
James: [01:23:07] All right. Well that is going to do it for this week's coffee house blunders, like I said earlier, go to blunders RFM. You can hit that contact button. You can click on Danny's U2, which we'll put in the show notes, of course, or you're listening on YouTube and go to blunders out of fam all the moves to there, all the contact information there.
You'll give it a thumbs up a like subscribe, do all the things we'd really appreciate it. But until next week, this is going to be your coffee house blunders. And, Oh my goodness. I am so excited for episode four, Danny. 
Danny: [01:23:33] Can't wait episode four middle game. We're in the middle game now, Batman. I don't know why I said it that way, but, uh, yeah, it'd be okay.
Coming up next.