s2e6
James: [00:00:00] Danny, Danny, Danny. Welcome back. How you feeling, buddy? 
Danny: [00:00:15] I am feeling a lot better and I, uh, I want to start by just addressing to everyone. First of all, those of you who maybe listened to our, um, Public service announcement on, on what was my COVID experience. Just a thank you. Thank you for the well wishes.
Got a lot of them on Twitter. And, uh, I want to just apologize to everyone that I had. No idea how badly affected I was by the Tylenol that I had just taken a half an hour earlier. I took two extra strength, Tylenol, uh, months. Apparently Tylenol is what you take with, COVID not Advil. I don't know why. Um, but my wife told me that and I, I had only taken time a couple of times, but I was feeling super achy and chilly that day.
And I was going to record the podcast with you. And I was like, all right, I'm going to take some Tylenol thinking. That's going to help me power through the next 90 minutes. And then I'm going to hit the bed. And when I listened back to that podcast, I felt just like, I just, I sounded horrible. I sounded like I was slurring my speech.
And so I just wanted to address that with everybody and apologize, but also of course, I have been super sick and COVID is COVID is, um, she's a, she's a fickle beast. We'll say that. So 
James: [00:01:21] I was actually worried after the call that had, you'd gone to bed. I reached out to Luke, our friend, Luke, and brother-in-law Luke.
And I was like, Hey, you have to call Shauna, see what's going on. And we've been privately checking in on you. You don't even know I've been checking in with you just to make sure, you know, I just want to make sure you know that you're all right. We love our Danny. And I'm glad that you're feeling better and that, that you're back at it, but yet, you know what, sometimes, you know, you're so sick, you're just out of it.
You have no idea. And that's why afterwards I was like, I need to reach out and double check. Cause you know, I don't know how much Danny is knowing that who he's talking to right 
Danny: [00:01:56] now. I appreciate that. And I had no idea that you did that. And I went to bed, uh, probably after our, uh, our quick, whatever it was five minute recording.
And it was supposed to be episode six, which is. What we're going to get into today. I'm actually super pumped. There's a lot to talk about in this particular one, but, but yeah, you know, it was, um, I don't, I don't normally take Tylenol. Like, let's say if I'm I get a headache or something like that. I think a lot of people, um, have like, whether they take Advil, which is ibuprofen or Tylenol, which is acetaminophen.
Right. Um, and. I didn't, I didn't have the best reaction to that. That's the honest truth. So anyway, I appreciate it. And, uh, you're the best. And I had no idea. So my wife kept that from me, that you were checking in with Luke and checking in on me. So there you go. Um, but uh, all is well, and I am feeling much better.
You might hear me with a little bit of sniffles in this, but overall I'm, I'm doing really, I'm doing much better and it's been a wild few weeks over the holidays and new year, but hope we're back at it, baby. So. Well, I 
James: [00:02:58] am glad that you are doing well and hopefully our listeners are too. I'm sure that they are and welcome to any of our first time listeners who randomly now know everything.
Danny: [00:03:10] That's hilarious. If someone's listening for something, like I thought this was a podcast for the Queen's gambit episode six, it is. And you should have listened to all of the previous episodes so that wouldn't throw you. But, um, but welcome. Yes. 
James: [00:03:21] And as everybody knows, I am, James wants a magnet. I am a program manager at Microsoft by day, Batman by night, and also a chess efficient and auto 
Danny: [00:03:32] expert.
I called you an expert before the podcast started and you just need to own it now, like the amount of work that James is putting into the chess positions and his ability to recap what we'll get into later, which of course, of course is Harman versus bore golf. Um, I just. I, I told you this and I didn't even, this is how much I love who you become.
Not that I didn't already love who you were now. You've become a chess expert and it's just. Oh, man, I guess we go on, I'm just going to say, 
James: [00:03:57] well, that lots of meanwhile, I am the local chess expert, but really the international chest expert international master Danny wrenches with me as always. Um, and he is the real person that's going to be breakdown the chess and the super fast bullet Simons that happen on this episode.
Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into the beginning then. Cause yes, I loved the beginning of this episode. But yeah, they're on their way to New York driving, driving with Benny on the road. We're on the road again. 
Danny: [00:04:24] Yup. Drive with Benny and they're, they're playing blindfold chess. So what was your thought on this as they're playing games in their head?
Yeah. 
James: [00:04:29] I was going to ask you the same thing, which is like, how realistic is this and how often have you done this? Because I, it is definitely something that I can't follow. 
Danny: [00:04:39] So, so it's a completely realistic and it's, it's always one of those fun things that I, I, I have to address when. Like family members, uh, you know, you know, see it on TV or, or talk about it or sometimes, you know, um, When I like, you know, I've played a lot of blinds, full games in my life, or play even blindfold, Simos, where you play multiple people.
Um, in fact, we'll link in the video here, the show notes. Um, there's a video on, uh, on actually I think our main Chaz YouTube channel where I played last time I did, this was against 12 kids in Mississippi and it was, we made the video into 10 minutes. It took like six hours. One of the most exhausting things I've ever done, but it is, it's not a.
It's not a magic trick. It's not a parlor trick. When you think about the muscles that make a great chess player, as far as the pattern recognition and it's, it's like glorified, mental math. And I think that a lot of people see it and go like, like, what is the trick you're using? Are you using like, you know, memory mansions, right?
The people that said our memory compartments, or, you know, there's been different things, but overall, you know, justice is more of a language. And when you know how to kind of read the board, You're able to keep track of things in your head. And the board itself is more like a medium to communicate to your opponent.
What move you've made without talking in a real environment. But many grand masters and professional players can play. Very high quality chess, um, in their head. And I did this a lot, especially as a young kid who I kind of like separated myself from my peers on our team, our team that won a lot of Scholastic championships.
And I was like, basically a professional chess player at the age of 14. I, at one point I was, I was, every time we would drive for a few hours, I would play assemble against my teammates. Um, you know, just just two or three sometimes maybe like the most would be four or five and, you know, um, They, you know, they were, they were weaker players than me, but strong enough that in like a blindfold Simon, we would have a lot of fun, a lot of split results and things like that.
So it's, it's definitely a thing. And, um, it's actually a very important training method because nothing makes you feel more mentally sharp than playing an entire chess game in your head. Yeah. It's 
James: [00:06:42] very impressive. And in fact, I've been staring when I go to your YouTube channel, there's a YouTube video.
It's called how to improve your chest visualization, where you're literally wearing a blindfold, right. And now is that the video I should watch to become a chess expert in blindfold chess? 
Danny: [00:06:57] Uh, no, I'm going to look up Danny wrench, blindfold Simon. And here we go. I got it. And it's a, it's a 12 minute video.
I'm going to throw it in our show notes here. And we did, uh, my, we, my video editor. Who's awesome. Um, one of our video editors@chess.com, but shout out to penny. He's been, been with us. The longest is great work. We kind of do that together with some music and some fun stuff and kind of intros it and, um, That, um, that was a particular assignment where I actually did manage to win every game, but I've, I've played.
Um, I think the toughest blind full-timer I ever played was an eight board Simon against eight of my students. Something I used to do called a strategy session back when my, before chess.com before the internet was a thing, I was teaching chess professionally and running the gambit of what the normal chess professional coach life is, which is you teach in schools and Scholastic enrichment programs lead to those interested in getting even better.
And in parents who want to. Pay for private lessons. And then those groups normally are actively playing in tournaments. And so you ended up kind of, you know, doing things on the weekend at times. And I would hold these things called strategy sessions with some of my better students. And one time I played an eight board Cybil against an average rating of, of over 2000.
Um, which is expert level. And I actually did not score that. Well, I scored like five and a half out of eight, which against a bunch of kids who I teach, who, you know, if we were playing straight up over the board blitz, I would, I would, you know, it wouldn't be uncommon for me to just win all 10 games.
Right. It wasn't the best score. Um, but it was, um, anyway, it's a very difficult thing. I think the world record is held by a grand master named teamwork array of in fact, I'm going to. Well, um, let's see world blindfold, chess, Simon record. I think the first there it is. In fact, if you Google world blindfold chess timer record, it's actually perfect.
It leads to. Um, you could actually see teamwork array of shaking hands with a kid, if you do that right now. Um, and, um, so he I've known Timor for a very long time. He actually won the first ever copper state international, which was a term that I held in Arizona. Oh my God. Many moons. I think it was 2009, 2010, 2009.
Um, and Timor, super talented guy from Uzbekistan. Um, A bit of a bit of a wild card. I'll just say that as far as, um, things that happened when Deborah was visiting the conversation international and 3:00 AM calls from Fort McDowell casino in Phoenix. Okay. Sorry. I digress. Um, but, um, but teamer is a super talented guy and he he's worked on like, Like memory mansion kind of stuff, right.
Stuff that I never get, where it takes it's beyond the chess skill. It's like being able to just keep track of that in your head. Um, so he's really a genius if I had to say so myself, so anyway, sorry, long story short, but I do think this is interesting because I think that it's one of the most unique things that people ask about the show is always how realistic are it?
Yes. And then th the culture of chess, what are they doing? And is that something people would do? Is it useful? Is it even realistic? And so obviously this long-winded kind of comment on Whitefield just says that it very much is, and it's a very common thing that players would do to train. 
James: [00:09:59] Yeah, it's really cool because I am math is one of my favorite topics that I took in high school and in college, and I really enjoy math itself and I can do a lot of quick math and even a little bit more advanced math, um, all the time, even though I'm married to a math major, like often I can, you know, do some mathematical stuff that it's almost like Heather, her math knowledge is like way more advanced than mine could ever be.
So I can do these sort of. Beginner and intermediate things like really faster, or she can do really complex things. It's sort of like the opposite. It's like when it comes, when it comes to chess, what's fascinating is, you know, not only need to be able to make the moves and understand the moves that are there.
So you're like memorizing. So like if I'm memorizing, like, you know, 40 minus 20 and like just quick math are these multiple occasions, like all the tricks that you've learned, but you actually do almost need to have that. That, that, um, photo memory to be able to say here is the snapshot of the chess board currently.
And I think that's very, very impressive because I can imagine, like, as you play more and more and more chess, that you're going to become better and better at this, but I feel like it's a very advanced thing because chess boards are complex there. I mean, you're talking about 40 50 
Danny: [00:11:12] moves. No, it's, it's super difficult.
And in fact, um, you know, I, I got, I got particularly good at it. Um, after having spent the summer of 2002 in Russia and I trained with Mark Gorecki and, uh, surrogate Domatov. Um, but the other guy I worked with was  who was at one point the trainer of, of Anatoly Karpov world champion. And my sessions with sites have a particularly memorable.
He was just, he was just like an old Russian grandfather was awesome, but all we would do. Was me and Igor. It was the same, every time we would just sit across from a blank chess board. So there was a chess board, but no pieces. Right. And we would make our move by announcing it. So I would say  and hit the clock.
He would say C5 and hit the clock and we would write it down with notation. Um, and so we would just play these training games. I think we were playing like 15 minutes aside, rapid games that were just blindfold start to finish. And that process really like. You know, jumped in. So I, I probably have done more blindfold training because of my, my Soviet roots.
I always like to say then maybe even some others and people that even got better than me. Right. Because there is the part of it that is chess. And there's part of it that you're right. It is a very. It's also a very specific muscle. Like the mental math of being able to do something is like you built this specific part of your memory.
There's this there's um, a friend of mine who I grew up with a peer. He was a couple of years older, but played in some U S junior championships with me. His name was Justin. Sarkar a well-known chess player from the new England area, but Justin was just kind of a matching is you can give him three digit math.
So 765 times 586. And like in three seconds he gives you the answer. And so just name any three-digit problem, then like three, I would say five seconds, mass, Matt, max. He just knows the answer. So, but that's like, that's like a very like unique and like Holy crap kind of skill. When you watch it, he can give you the answer faster than someone who's standing next to him racing you with the calculator.
So if someone is like trying someone is typing it into the calculator, as you're spitting it out and he would have the answer. Most of the time, faster than the calculator. So it's a weird thing, right? It doesn't mean that he's also like solving algorithms of like, you know, PhD level, like, you know, mathematicians from MIT.
Like my buddy, John Urschel, like, no, but in that terms of that specific skill, he probably solves three digit math faster than John can, you know, it's just wild. 
James: [00:13:29] Yeah, it's, it's, it's very impressive. And I think it's more of an all moment when you see it and you understand what's going. And even though it's a very short segment, right.
It's only like 30 seconds or so you, you serve to see them play this out in the, in the car on the way, but it's still a very impressive scene. So it's cool to get the background of it. And, uh, and watch, uh, the, the, the international master Danny at work and these videos we'll link to all those in the show notes, take a look for those, but let's, uh, enter Danny's, uh, um, Apartment.
Danny: [00:13:59] Okay. Appreciate not Danny's apartment buildings. 
James: [00:14:02] Nope. This is the first time I entered Danny's apartment. When I first met Danny. This was exactly what I, um, walked into. It was like down in the basement in this old building, the doors is barely hanging on. There was magazines of Danny ranch, international master everywhere.
Like, and then there were like pizza boxes and, and that's, uh, that was Danny's apartment. That was Danny's first 
Danny: [00:14:29] walked in as much as it, the jokes are, it wasn't actually my apartment because I, you know, I was, you know, um, married and, um, at a young age with, uh, with woman I'm still with, so I was, I was much more of like a, kind of like an older, uh, not, not quite the romantic, like single guy, chess player, lifestyle, but I will say this, I have been in apartments just like, Benny's like, no, And, um, and, and then the, the chess scenes that take place there, right.
I've been a part of those, those things. And it's, it's pretty cool to see what happens. I'm gonna let you, you dry, I don't want to jump, obviously we can tell I'm chomping at the bit to get to this chest simuflight stuff because, um, you know, because it's all the chest we prepare for this, but, um, but yeah.
What were the other things about that? Right. So she goes in, she's kind of like, you could tell she's a little socially uncomfortable. He's kind of like, Hey, you're going to sleep out here, kind of on the floor. It gives her a blow up mattress that you pump with your foot, which by the way is just awesome.
Right. Um, 
James: [00:15:24] I have, I had that written down foot pump. Yeah. Cause, cause you know, when you go, like when we. Um, when we were moving, it's like, we always got like an inflatable mattress and, you know, they always comes with a foot pump and you're like, I'm going to spend the extra $10 and get the one that plugs into the loss.
And I have to like sit here all day, but you know, there's that point? You're like, Oh man, the inflatable mattress is $20. Why do I spend an extra $10 on this pump? It's because of this. But you know, it's one of those things that it feels like I've lived through this type of experience where like I've crashed with a friend and they're like, Oh, here's a tiny inflatable mattress.
Not the one that he. Gave her is, is, was quite small. It was like a single person, very on the floor. Like I'm at least going to upgrade everybody to a twin or 
Danny: [00:16:04] queen. You just said 20, 30 bucks. I can tell you as we just moved into a new house, my wife and I, and we bought. We don't have a guest room in that, in that sense right now.
So we bought a couple of blow-up queen beds that are really, that are not only plugged in the wall, but of the nicer kind, so that we have like couples coming with kids. Right. People be, you know, we want them to be as comfortable as possible. And it was, we bought a couple of mattresses. They're like 130 bucks, like, Oh, like they're, they're like nice, 
James: [00:16:30] like multi chamber dual tier.
Danny: [00:16:33] That's like nicer than my bed. You know, um, anyway, so yeah. 
James: [00:16:37] Yeah. And then, um, hands-off and then he says, there's no booze in this apartment and then slammed the door shut. Okay. Yeah. And it was, it was a fad. I mean, you know, I, you know, in New York, right. And I love the scene where she's walking up to the door and he's like, no, not that one down here.
It goes through this. It was just. Very reminiscent of like, this is real world I've lived through this. I've been through this. Like my time in Romania was, was similar in a few different ways. And my times visiting friends, even in Arizona, or even in Seattle where we're similar, right. It's not bad. I mean, it's just like, here's the apartment here is what it is.
And not every apartment is the creme de LA creme, a Chateau Daisha, Danny. You know what I 
Danny: [00:17:20] mean? Well, that, that scene reminded me and my wife. Uh, Y Shawna watched it with me and we had just, what is the show? We just, Oh, the, the unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. Oh yeah. Um, which is a great show, right? Like she like comes out of this underground cult after years and like, then she ends up in this, in this basement level apartment with a roommate right.
In New York. It kind of reminded me a little bit of that. Like, as far as the, uh, you know, the, the New York apartment scene of going down rather than up. Um, but, um, But, yeah, so they're getting settled here, right? He, he's almost making, like, he's almost like making points with Beth at this point. Like we saw what happened, you know, at the last bar scene of scene five where he's like, Hey, no sex.
Right. And then he's like, no booze. Right. And he's like, clearly, like trying to like establish some part of it where he kind of has Beth pegged right now, as, you know, maybe a substance abuser. Right. But he's there to like, he's there to work on chess with her. Right. So he's really trying to. Lecture her a little bit, I think, and kind of like lay some ground rules right off the bat, which is sort of interesting.
Right. Especially because we know that that's not really the case. When the friends come, they bring alcohol and then, and then parties begin here pretty soon. 
James: [00:18:28] Yeah, Dan and Danny, you know, I think that that Benny really wants to get to work though. And that's where the, I think he's setting these ground rules cause he wants to get to work because literally the next morning, before she's even up, he's setting up the chess board.
He has things for her to read. They want to play these games. The first thing that really caught my attention was I wanted to ask you about it. Is he hands her, like the stack of. Of, I guess their records of games, but it's the Hastings Christmas chess, Congress record of games. I, I didn't know what this was.
My here's what my thinking is of it is, is, is like, you know, when you go to a sports ball game and they're like, here's the, here's like the little guide for the day or whatever. Like here's all the players. Here's what the positions are playing here's information about the team. 
Danny: [00:19:14] First of all, I love that.
You just said you go to a sports ball game. And sports ball games. I love that. Sorry, I let that slide, but we got to continue. Go ahead. 
James: [00:19:22] Got to go to the match, the touchdowns and 
Danny: [00:19:24] the golden. Yeah. Where they get the touchdown only after you hit a home run. So go ahead. Exactly. 
James: [00:19:29] Yep. And, uh, so the record of games might.
I don't, I don't know exactly what it is. It is a record of games, a a real thing. And if it is a real thing, is it okay? It is a real thing. Yep. Is it basically a here's all the, the games and here's how they were played and here's all the moves. It's just like 
Danny: [00:19:47] a real barrier, um, really before the internet became what it is and even got, I could, I could go.
Off on a tangent on this. And I won't, as long as the blindfold one, but I'll say that tournament bulletins bulletins were very common in that. In fact, there are people on staff, even when I was running tournaments, people ask me like, Hey, are you gonna have someone putting together the bulletin? Right?
Which is somebody whose job it was to take all the score sheets. You know, you know, the scene from even as early, as like episode two, where she walks out after winning and the tears, the score sheet and drops it in the box. Remember that scene. So that's a real thing, especially in feed day events, right?
The international chess Federation governs that every game that has a result has to have a score sheet. Not all USCF events have this right. But let's say, let's say all major events do. And so it's very common that those games, somebody is manually typing them out into a physical bulletin, like basically making a book of all the games every night.
And then at the end of the event, all of those bulletins are combined into a, you know, basically a catalog or a tournament report. In fact, I even have. Being in my old chefs books, they're not here in front of this office here because I put them at our, at our chest.com office that we have not too far from my house here.
Um, and, and one of, uh, one of our, I think our controller, Bryce, who does our financials would go through, he's like, Hey, like, do they still do this? And I'm like, no, not anymore. But he was looking at a book from the candidates tournament in 19. Got 71 or 70, or like the, the tournament that Fisher one to play for the world championship title in 72 versus Pasky.
And the point is that was a very real thing. So there were people that was, that was their job was to put together all the games so that the players. Had them could prepare for their opponents mid event had the most real-time information they could. And then eventually those were often put together and sold by the organizers as a way to sort of, you know, justify the investment of the tournament, very commonly.
Um, that, that would be how it organized, just kind of made some of their money back as people buying the bulletins because they want access to all those top level games. And it's so crazy to think that Nelly, someone would manually type them out from a handwritten score sheet, but then put it all together.
And now. Now people literally play on a DGT board, a digital game transmission board, and those games are automatically built into PGMs like right now, if you go to chess.com, you can watch hundreds of thousands of games being played that are building a score sheet before your very eyes, meaning the moves are being recorded.
And the moment the game is over someone resigns or whatever the result is in that game is saved instantly to someone's game archive. And we literally have billions of games in our database, right. Our PHP. Scaling databases on the back end. That's a big part of what we do is move large data all the time.
Cause we have, you know, just.is eight and a half million score sheets. Let's say like, not game, like if we're talking about the score sheets here, we have eight and a half million PGS to store every day. Right. And anyway, so just crazy. Right. And, but yes, it's a very real thing. And so the Hastings moment is representing that a bunch of great games by a bunch of great players at the time who played in a, in a great event in Hastings.
James: [00:22:46] How did the over the board ones work? Let's say that there's an over the board that people are playing are the, are the chess boards? Like are the, chessboards able to like get the moves 
Danny: [00:22:57] or is it like you asked that? Cause now over the board is, is coming back a little bit. Uh, Tata steel is about to take place starting January 15th, 2021, which there's some controversy going on with it right now as, as our second round of COVID is starting to rage in Europe and whether they should be doing it, I won't get into that right now.
Apparently they're taking a lot of measures to properly socially distance. There'll be glass between the players, everyone. Anyway. Whatever right. But th w so interesting right. About the times we live in, but the games are played on these DGT boards, which are wooden boards that automatically have sensors.
And so they are instantly relayed to the online audience to watch for not only commentators, but all the audience to watch and instantly saved the PGN, but, okay. That's how to steal. It's a super tournament with hundreds of thousands of dollars Magnus, Carlsen, and everyone else would be there. Other tournament still operate the way I would say, which is most games are played just by people keeping score.
They tear their score sheet. They deliver it to the tournament organizers table when they're marking their results. And at some point somebody enters that game online and it makes it into what we call TWIC, which is the weekend chess you can actually go to the weekend. chess.com and twick is in fact, the guy more ther um, You know, we have a good partnership with him.
He's actually kind of an unsung hero among the, uh, the diehards of, of chess improvement, the professional community, because he's been running TWIC now for years at a very, very low profit, if any, and it's a huge service to the community that he coordinates with all these organizers, um, and they submit games and he puts them all together.
And every week there's a quick download. Excuse me. I think we're on a twig magazine number. Got it. I can go there right now. I download them automatically. Um, I'm actually sort of promoting a competitor in the sense. I can also tell everyone, Hey, if you go to chess.com/game explore, we automatically import TWIC and you can just use jess.com for getting the most up to date games.
But TWIC, honestly, no, it's not about that. Tweak is an amazing thing. What are we on issue number 1365. So he's been doing it for 1,365 weeks. 
James: [00:25:00] Wow. That was crazy. Well, I mean, I think this DGT thing is really fascinating because it's almost like a hotel mini bar, you know, like when you take something out, they're like, Oh, you gotta pay us now.
But I think I I'm, I'm just fascinated by the technology and the sensors that are keeping track of this to me as a. Tech enthusiasts geek. I find this really cool. I mean, they're very expensive, these DGT boards, 
Danny: [00:25:27] but I mean, it makes sense congest right now, and look on the right side. You see our banner that we pay for, um, the chess.com events banner, right there, every board.
In that shot is a DGT board. That's actually from our isle of man event, which we hold annually. We'll be holding it again. Um, in, uh, in October, um, COVID willing, as I like to say with all things now COVID willing, we will hold the isle of man again. And, um, those are a lot of DGT boards is a lot of money you're looking at right there.
Yep. 
James: [00:25:57] Yeah. The isle of man iron man, the auto man. Um, we'll go back to that, uh, blunders episode, if you want to recap, uh, from season one, that was a fun episode. Um, All right. So the biggest part of this is they're going through they're discussing games. They're talking about end game analysis. The one line that really sticks out to me and I wanted to talk to you about this era in chess is, is, you know, Benny says, you know, the Soviets play together as a team.
And if, and if Beth is going to beat them,  that they are going to need a team of people, right. It's saying to say, Hey, I am not your enemy. We are not your enemy. We need to come together on this. And why was it? We may have discussed this earlier, but why is it. That in this era, the United States was not playing as a team, but the Soviets were right.
And if they're supposed to be our common enemy at the time, right, the Soviet and USSR and all this, you know, you know, all this stuff. And if Jess was this mega thing where they kind of this time or it's growing thing, and Russia was, and Soviets were really investing in this, why was it that we couldn't come together as Americans?
Or when did we come together? Was this, was there a period in which it was like, Oh, you know what, no, we actually are going to have, and here's this famous team because you see bore golf, right? Surrounded, especially in later episodes, you see him surrounded where this statement 
Danny: [00:27:25] is true. 
James: [00:27:26] Right. Where literally at all times the experts, the, the grand masters are helping and aiding the grand masters because it's not about.
Bore golf winning it's about the Soviets 
Danny: [00:27:37] winning. Yep. So yeah, I mean, you and I have touched on this or, or, you know, I've given context of this in several episodes previous, just a little bit here and there. Like obviously there was the episode of Mexico city and I talked about the whole KGP experience in my own coach.
who defected, right. In a rather infamous way and how real, that was not just to have the team of seconds, but the KGB following in. And so. You know, we could go again, this is like a whole other podcast, like the history of chess evolution almost, but I will say that everything about this is depicted super well.
So first of all, we'll just say that, you know, the show really nails it. I will say that, um, what Benny says is a hundred percent true in context. And part of the reason for that is. Is I wouldn't the only Lake comparisons you can make now would almost be to, to China in this, in, in the, uh, summer in winter Olympics where you were, what you have is a, a state sponsored, not just sport, but process where there's expectations on, um, China winning gold or Russia winning, you know, uh, or let's say the Soviet union winning these chess matches and they don't care.
Who's representing, um, And everyone from a very young age is, has bought into this process. Right. I'm trying not to use the other word, you know, the propaganda word. Right. But it is, it is a very real thing. In fact, I have my 15 year old reading, 1984 right now, by the way. Just fun fact on utopianism anyway.
Sorry. Nevermind. Um, it's, it's, uh, it's a controversial topic, but, but it is true that the Soviet union was. A, um, a global powerhouse, right? And there was, there were state sponsored sports where at a very young age, potentially talented people were not only recognized, but then groomed right throughout the entire process to become the best they could be.
And if at some point during that process, they were sputtering enough that someone else was more talented. Like the Soviet union would mandate your job is to now be this guy second. You're not the man anymore. Right. And this was a very common thing. And in fact, to the point of. Accusations of tournament, um, you know, coercion and conspiracies that.
As Fisher tried to make his way through the ranks, that he would be locked out or first, because if he made a single mistake now, you know, X, Y, and Z Grandmaster would throw the game to the grand master who is a half a point of head of Fisher to make sure that Fisher couldn't catch him. Right. And these were very, these were like, there's a lot of stories about this and, and the point is over time.
You know, as the Soviet union eventually fell and, um, that, you know, some of those stories came out and some were confirmed or denied, but it was a very real thing. But even if we go away from like the negative aspect of it, like whatever, if there were controversy that youth is just on like a team level, it was like, Hey, like we're all in this together.
Because mother Russia is, is, is, is, is the. Is the person trying to win here. Right. And, and you're just a, you're just a piece in that. And, and America, even, even at the height of, of the fight with, with Russia in the West was still a capitalist country. Right. And so at our core was very, it's a very individualistic encouraging you.
It's achievement, it's individual accomplishment, material based. And that's the capitalist culture that we have had. You know, which has its own very long list of pros and cons. Right. And, but, you know, again, that's a philosophical, it's a whole other discussion, but the truth is that until Fisher. Really proved himself as a worthy contender for the world championship title versus Boskey.
And part of that was the dominant, absolute, insanely dominant performance he had in the candidates leading up to it. I would, you know, you would say that even the Americans were not on the same page, eventually you had guys like pal Benko. Who was referenced in an earlier episode, like, um, Evans, um, Arthur bisque wire, you think of grandmasters in that era?
I apologize. There are many others. I'm sure I should be thinking of Edmore madness. There were many that were like in Fisher's camp that helped him. Um, and in some of these guys exactly. Kind of like represent that for Beth, especially as we get into episode seven, but no spoilers. Um, So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very real thing.
It was a cultural uphill battle. In addition to the fact that the Russians were dominant because they were individually had all the best players as a team. Their culture was also so hard to crack, which makes what Fisher did in the seventies and what Beth Harman in many ways represents, I think in terms of the character that they kind of develops here.
Um, it was, it was such a tough battle to have to take on the, uh, the Soviets in, in, uh, in chess at that, in that era. Yeah, that makes sense. 
James: [00:32:00] It's a good, good refresher of just like the period in which we're living and how this is very reminiscent and realistic to what has happened in the real world in this time.
Right? So like these depictions and this chess and this team mentality are exactly what is depicted here. And I think it's just a really great. Telling that, that you can speak. Right. I think I've been listening to my wife, listened to our podcast. It's funny, but it's fascinating too, because she'll point out parts that she thinks are really fascinating and it's quite fun to listen.
It's weird to listen to myself and you after I've put it out and done it. 
Danny: [00:32:35] Yeah. Well, I, I have no list full disclosure. I have not listened to any of our podcasts in full, besides the last one where I sounded like a blubbering internet idiot, and I felt so bad with the COVID thing. But, but other than that, I have not listened to any so, but it's funny.
Yeah. I can understand what you're saying to listening to someone else listened to us sometimes gives you a different view of like, Oh, we kind of skipped over this part, but maybe that was super fascinating to talk about, right? 
James: [00:32:56] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's get to it because our main crew is coming to party Wexler lever to what was in lever, lever 10.
What is Arthur GM, Arthur and Cleo, our favorite Cleo 
Danny: [00:33:12] Cleo 
James: [00:33:13] coming to party 
Danny: [00:33:15] an advisor for, uh, for, to have some alcohol, but Beth declines in the apartment. Right. Yes. 
James: [00:33:22] Um, this is very, very much, it gives the nod to Benny and, you know, the sort of this mutual, uh, agreement there, 
Danny: [00:33:30] which is great. Right. Because she in the scene like she, she, she respectfully respectfully declines and kind of turns away Cleo.
It despite being tempted or whatever. Right. And then starts playing blitz with these guys. Can we finally get to the blitzing, the votes come on. Right. 
James: [00:33:47] So the blitz. All right. Well, no, no, no, no, because what happens first is puzzles. You can't 
Danny: [00:33:50] get some shots before the puzzle, the, uh, the Wexler, I'm sorry. I got to pull it up.
The, uh, 
James: [00:33:56] the Wexler three moves. He gives her three moves. 
Danny: [00:34:01] Um, two Hilton Wexler's puzzle, three moves 
James: [00:34:04] to me. Yes. Three moves to meet. 
Danny: [00:34:06] And this is a great example of, there is a whole culture of puzzle solving in the chess world that isn't necessarily the professional players culture, but it is a very specific type of calculation.
And the reason that puzzles are hard and can even stumped some of the best players, like normally a checkmate in three that was derived from any sort of classical game. It's like a foregone conclusion that not only does the grand masters see it, but they've already seen it. Right. And that's because the pattern recognition that develops into that is so strong.
Um, but puzzles are unique because the position itself is irrelevant. Like if you look at this position here and I know I'm gonna, we're gonna upset people that have left comments on YouTube and on blunders on our fan that you wish we could suddenly hit a magic button. And the video turns into a video, not just an audio thing, but I'm sorry, we're not doing that.
I would love to be able to hit a magic button right now and just like. The YouTube video changes mods, and I'm showing the chest position. Right. But we can't do that. Um, this is unique because as you look at it mods, here's the thing, the position is irrelevant. White is completely winning whites actually up to nuts, right?
Yeah. And even if you don't find the meat in three. Like, as you have the, if you have the engine running and just click on the link in the show notes, everyone, and go to chess dot coms analysis board, just having in front of you as we talk like, you know, option three in the position as Bishop H five, I've been letting the engine sit here and think forever and it's plus 57.7.
And the reason that's interesting context for understand is like, Grandmasters, don't give a flying bleep about these types of positions. Most of the time, why? Because their job is to win they're professionals and they often will advise their students even to take the easiest path, whatever seems the most logical and in most human, you just take it.
And that's actually very good, uh, mental sort of discipline, right? Don't waste your time. Your job is to win and go home. Right. But puzzles are about. Being the most precise possible, right. And that's not how a grand master plays tournaments, but it is always a fun and sort of unique calculation challenge.
And there are some that are really into it, right? It's like a whole subculture of the chess culture, which I think that that's why I wanted to talk about this because it's very funny that people don't know that. In fact, I would say Grandmaster, Maurice, Ashley, who's a well-known. Commentator is actually the first black Grandmaster in the world.
Reese is a good friend of mine. He's actually streaming on Twitch regularly now and trying to grow a channel. But more Reese is probably one of the few exceptions of a grand master level person who is absolutely obsessed with puzzles, where he just loves muzzles. He actually makes his own puzzles. Okay.
Um, but the point is, so the only way to get made in three here is to play the move King to , which frees up the D six square for the night and the night, eventually reroutes itself to EA. And there's nothing that black can do to stop checkmate, um, which is wild. But again, from a, from a chess, like high level perspective, it was kind of an interesting challenge for Beth because she doesn't necessarily, she's not that into puzzles, but she still, you know, takes the challenge and, and tries to find it right.
James: [00:37:01] Yeah, no, I, it, it is a very, very interesting scene because it is the first puzzle we've seen. Then I had written down here, like, are these puzzles things that are from real games? Are they made up? Is it realistic that this would get to this level? And then someone could win? You know what I mean? That's the questions that I have 
Danny: [00:37:22] the answer.
It is like, it's not realistic on any of those senses because, uh, it's, it's, it's a, it's a composition is what they call it. Because it's a real game. White would have won in a more simple fashion because they wouldn't even have taken the time or given a belief about the fact that there was a main three.
They don't care to just make an easier road to win. Right. So I, 
James: [00:37:39] I have the puzzle up. It's it's black to move, right. 
Danny: [00:37:43] Well, in, in the first position though, it's white to move. The first move is King to  for weight. 
James: [00:37:47] Okay. King. Okay. I got you. Okay. Let me load this board up. So what we're going to do is on the YouTube channel.
I'm going to. Record this I'm going to do white to move. 
Danny: [00:37:56] Okay. 
James: [00:37:57] So, okay. So D 
Danny: [00:37:59] King on . 
James: [00:38:02] Got it. Okay. Now what, 
Danny: [00:38:04] so black two moves, the only legal moves are either King to G seven or Bishop's U seven. We'll do both. We'll do Bishop G seven 
James: [00:38:11] first Bishop G seven. 
Danny: [00:38:14] The white Knight moves to D six 
James: [00:38:16] white Knight moves to D.
Six under the 
Danny: [00:38:21] gang. Right? And now the point is no matter where the only moves on the board are either Bishop  Bishop back to ha where it was or Bishop H six, but on any of those three moves, it's irrelevant. The night moves to IAYT with checkmate. So just move the Bishop on your video to any square  and then white plays 98.
James: [00:38:43] I hate that. E. Oh, got it. 
Danny: [00:38:48] So if we back up a couple moves back up to instead of bishops  okay. Let's say black plays  
James: [00:38:56] King to G seven. 
Danny: [00:38:58] This is a funner ending to me. And the reason is that in this variation, it, after white plays 96. So can you seven white again, plays 96. 
James: [00:39:09] Night DSX. Got it. 
Danny: [00:39:10] This is a very cool final position of the PO or it's not exactly the final, but it's the penultimate, whatever is it?
The whatever I'm not good and ultimate multiple yet. Um, so now you see the dual purpose of mighty six because not only does the night coming here frightened to go to EA, but it also protects the Bishop on F seven. And that allows the night on chief five to move depending on where the black King moves.
So I'm going to show all three checkmates. If in this position, after 96, black plays King to F eight, the other night moves to ESX and the King has checkmated Knight G five to six. Mm, got it. If the King moves back to F six, then we have the same position from the other line where the night goes to eat again.
And it's checkmate. 
James: [00:40:00] Got it. 
Danny: [00:40:01] That last move is the King moving to age six. And now the Knight on D six takes the  pawn with check and mate, the King is trapped on each six. Got it. So it is a, it's a tricky puzzle if you, you know, if you've never seen it before, because, um, you sorta have to visualize the whole ending from start to finish, or these puzzles don't work.
And again, in a professional world, from the starting position, White can literally play any move and it's still completely waiting, but there's only one way to meet in three. And that's what the King did.  followed by bringing that night from  to  and then one of the checkmates that we discussed. 
James: [00:40:38] Got it.
Yeah, because in this situation too, if this was a real chess board set up, wouldn't black just resign at this point. Or do you think that that would be played out? 
Danny: [00:40:49] Yes. Black would have resigned, especially in one grand masters, for sure. Gotcha. 
James: [00:40:53] Okay. Let's get to it. Blitz chess, speed, chess splits, Simon.
Let's do it. Multi game sports 
Danny: [00:41:01] go. So anyway, the, the reason this is so interesting, I wanted to get to it is because, um, it just, uh, it was talked about more than like, it can, it's fair to say more than any chess scene from the whole show. Now that it's over. I think so. I mean, it was because. How hard is it to play a blitz Simon in general.
And then how realistic is it that even if you were playing a blitz Simon and you were like, let's say you were Magnus Carlsen or Gary Kasparov or Bobby Fisher, that you would be able to beat an international master. Like Betty Watts who's basically seems like as strong as a Grandmaster, right. Uh, a Grandmaster.
Um, and then I forget if the other guy was a grand master too. Sorry. Um, um, The, uh, the speech is at least one grand master Benny. And I think the other guy is, 
James: [00:41:49] I think he's just a master. I 
Danny: [00:41:50] think he's just a master of it, but the point is like, so that is an insane feat to accomplish. Right. And they do such a good job of that though.
One of the things I observed is that at this point in the show, The actress right on your tailor. Joy has clearly played enough chess where her body language was so confident and how quickly she moved to the boards and the way she does little things in it. In fact, I do the YouTube breakdown of this, where she's capturing pieces.
James with one hand were. Um, beginner players, like they pick up a piece, they kind of awkwardly move a piece to a square as if their hand is sort of telling their brain where to go. Right? Yeah. And it's the lack of confidence is something that is very hard to depict is one of the reasons Laurence Fishburne.
And what I would say was the previous gold standard for chess on screen. Before the show back in the movie, searching for Bobby Fischer. Why he was so amazing because he spent so much time in Washington square and really played blitz chess. The guy's body language was like, Oh my God, he's a, bad-ass like, he clearly knows how to play bliss.
Yes. Right. And chess players were just blown away by how great that movie was. And this scene. It's sort of reminiscent of that. There there's a couple of awkward moments almost from her opponents and even, um, I forget the actor who plays Benny. I should remember. He just did a great YouTube for a YouTube video interview for us on the, on the YouTube channel.
Like I'll grab it and link it. Um, but even he's not as smooth, but on your tailor joy, like really delivers in this scene, regardless of the feasibility of a grand master assemble. I would say that it is feasible that someone who is supposedly that talent did someone who's like a Bobby Fischer of the era.
Could pull this off at least once or twice, but to pull it off, like where she kind of takes all their money, I would say that's like, it's just so hard to do inter international grandmasters, like especially someone who's as good as blitz as Benny was supposed to be. I would say this, this was like a really mindblowing scene that sets the tone that Beth should be world champion genius level way beyond these guys.
And that's kind of where she's headed. And then the fact that her body language delivered in that scene, I thought was just amazing. 
James: [00:43:54] And I D I think there's a confidence to it. Like you were saying, the confidence of your moving, the chess pieces, taking the chess pieces, even suggesting simultaneous speed, chess, and, and, and taking on the additional bets to get back all the money that she had lost from Benny in the speech as that they were playing earlier, just one-on-one that confidence is there.
Right. And this is something that when Beth is in her. Element when she is dialed in and things are aligned, she's unstoppable. Right? The first time we saw her play speed chess, she was a little uncomfortable. She hadn't played it before it was neuter. She thought that she was unstoppable. And after the first loss, it kind of got under her skin, but she has completely swapped it.
You know what I mean? A hundred percent. And when you see her. Play chess throughout the entirety of this season and the series. Those things are the same. Um, when she has her hands, she has her hands in one or two places, either on her chin or on her face. When it's on her face. It's not good. Right, which we see later in the next scene, because she's in this focus and it's even, even, even when she has time to play, she's either underneath, she has her hands underneath and this confidence is just set down where she's looking and she's competent.
She's examining the board compared to where she's. She's like over analyzing stress out about the boards when her hands are on her, on her head. Right. It's either 
Danny: [00:45:27] under, under, see, I didn't, I made a lot of notes of it. I didn't make as hard of a note about the, that body language cues. So again, that's why you're the new resident chess expert.
I love that because it's very relevant and a lot of chess players have tells when you think of, when you hear the word tells you always think of a different game, right? Poker, most of the time is what people think of. But yeah. But in chest tube, there are, there are tells as far as how people are feeling about, um, which, because chess is different than poker.
And that it's a game of complete information, which is a very important distinction to make as people who don't know as much about the culture between chess and poker sometimes make comparisons. And there are a lot of great chess players who became great poker players. I'm not saying. That, but it's a very different game.
Like poker is even at the highest levels, so much more luck, right? Whereas chess is maybe 0.0001% luck. It's a game of complete information. It's not the same thing, but there are still tells in terms of how your opponent is feeling right. And, um, And because I, you know, I think human nature and body language and our, our presence over the board does make a difference in some psychological ways.
It does matter. And it we've talked about that. So, interesting observation you made about hotels. I love that. I love it. So I did just share a link to the interview we had with Thomas, uh, Brody. Sangster I apologize, Thomas, for forgetting your name for a second. I'm sorry. You're an awesome actor, but the guy that plays penny Watts was interviewed by our own.
CDA master Mike Klein is one of our top journalists and you can check out the video on YouTube. We'll have it in the show notes. 
James: [00:46:50] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. Anything else about this Simon? Because she sweeps. 
Danny: [00:46:56] It was just awesome. And again, I, um, we'll, we'll give a link actually, cause the video is coming out.
Um, too. Um, I have a slightly more detailed chest breakdown, but the main thing I wanted to say again, it's just giving credit where credit's due, that the actress and the time she spent the body language, the confidence, the poise, and just the whole scene is super cool. And it's also, it's also, again like maybe the blitz Simon aspect is.
A little extreme to like have a nod in terms of breath, best brilliance. The, the scene itself is like, I feel like I've been there as a 14 year old kid, and I know that sounds inappropriate, but I was traveling a lot alone in a lot of circles and I've slept on, on people's floors. Where, when I fell asleep on a hard floor, there were still people drinking and partying and playing blitz just around me.
Right. Because I was a kid who did not, did not engage in alcohol at that time, despite what you may have heard. Um, and, um, And so just that whole scene was just kind of awesome. Anyway, it's just interesting that it is a very much a chess culture thing to like chess parties, you know, just parties St. A blade blitzing and, and just like having a blast and, uh, you know, so it was, uh, it was just cool.
I feel like they nailed it. And on your table, joy really nails it as far as she's clearly become a comfortable chess player in the scene. Yeah. 
James: [00:48:08] Yep. And, uh, you know, I think this, this leads to, uh, Benny sort of. Kind of, uh, unraveling himself a little bit. He was by the book. No alcohol, no. Anything just like, we're separated.
You're over here, I'm over here. And there's a little connection between the two of them that occurs, 
Danny: [00:48:29] but you can say 
James: [00:48:30] there's some sex that happened. And 
Danny: [00:48:33] I think it's an important seed, right? Because it's not just that they have sex that it's like. Benny breaks down his boundary almost because Beth has like conquered him, is that it's like, and I think that they're definitely sending a message of the air that this was not a show that was ever going to, I mean, we had some criticism for the show as far as unnecessary kind of objectification of, of maybe Beth's body when she comes in and kind of starts on dressing in the scene in Mexico city.
Right. But other than that, there's really nothing about this show that. Dives into anything gratuitous in regards to sex scenes, but this was like a. An important moment because it shows that his attraction to Beth is not based on the fact that she's a woman in a man's world. And obviously an attractive woman.
What he's saying is like she conquers him intellectually and all of a sudden he like wants to be with her. Right. Interesting. 
James: [00:49:23] Yeah. It's an interesting scene that. The wake up. I like the next scene to where, you know, she's like, that's what it's supposed to feel like. And then, you know, there's, there's like sort of like laying next to each other, but then Benny of course, 
Danny: [00:49:35] right.
James: [00:49:36] I can't get chest out of his head and he's like, yeah, I recommend that, you know, you should play the Sicilian and they start to have this discussion and. And, um, she gets pissed at him, you know, and she's pissed and Benny's confused and the bad, and she's like rolls over. She's 
Danny: [00:49:52] like, that's what you want to talk about right now.
I think it's some line like that, but it is interesting, but it shows like Benny is a chess player first and foremost, and his attraction to this woman goes up as she conquers him on the chess board intellectually, she hasn't really had a relationship that she cared about. Where she ever like acted on those feelings.
There's the eventually there's the, not even later in this episode to towns, and we've talked about that character as far as being kind of her first love, right. That never, never came to fruition. Benny was kind of like a hero for her at some point in the chess world. Now she's conquered him and she kind of wants to enjoy the intimacy of being with him.
And he's like, no, let's talk about how you're going to be bored. Exactly. 
James: [00:50:30] Yeah. It's just a, I love, and I love that, how she handles it and she took, Oh, geez. Like I can't even right now. And, uh, And yeah, I love this entire scene. I love the setup. I love the era. I love. The simultaneous that occurs. And, you know, we did get a little insight into Chloe who is a model, um, and 
Danny: [00:50:49] the French model, 
James: [00:50:50] a French model.
And she says, you know, if you're ever over there, let me know. Fair enough. We are in a Perry finally, where it all began, the grand Prix. The Ash that Patty, 
Danny: [00:51:02] the chest, you mentioned that if anyone has forgotten what he said it, remember, this is where the entire show began. Right? So we're finally back in real time from that first scene of episode one, it's 
James: [00:51:13] all back as it is a round a day for five days, plus one day of adjournment.
Um, it is, this is the big time is because bore Goff V Harmon. Round two is, is, is, is coming up. Let's just say, but I love the opening part of this is there in Paris. We now understand, Hey, we're back to where it began, but then there is the interviews that are occurring and Bhargava is of course speaking and Russian, like, how is he going to handle this?
Beth gets interview. They ask her some cocky questions, pretty much. He handles it gracefully, and then she busts out some Russian and Borg gives her a stare. 
Danny: [00:51:52] Yeah, that's awesome. Well, remember the scene back in Mexico city in the elevator were like, they're talking in Russian and the subtitles come on the screen.
And, and she obviously knew what they were talking about when they say, when he kind of gives her an and says, Hey, no, she's a survivor like us, like don't underestimate her. Right. Um, but remember he turns and looks at her almost like he has a feeling that she understood what they were talking about rather than yeah.
James: [00:52:13] Yeah. I feel like he had some insight into, to maybe she knew. Yeah. 
Danny: [00:52:17] And, and again, again, I know that there's, um, A lot of nods to who other characters Beth Harman has been, uh, or was based off of. In fact, I'll give a link to an incredible article written by, um, an anonymous. I won't say her real name, even though I've known her for a very long time.
She's known as bat girl on chess.com. Hmm. Are you, you have, you have to check this out. Um, I I'm the I'm going to Lincoln. I'm not going to run out, but that girl did an incredible job breaking down this specific character who, uh, Walter, Travis, uh, based Beth Harman on from like her physical attributes.
Her presence is a whole other thing, but, but her. Her her talents and that the character of the, the journey of Beth Harman to become who she is and American fighting against the Soviets was clearly based on Fisher. Right? So I keep that's the nod I keep giving. And the reason, again, this is another very strong nod to fisheries because Fisher did this at a press conference and Fisher spoke Russian.
Got it. So again, I just had to say that that's all and I was just, I, my digression was cause I don't want to just overly beat the dead horse. Obviously. I know there were other potential characters, but, but Fisher's journey and the way that Beth Harman speaks Russian, you know, kind of out of place in that world is, um, was a thing that Bobby Fisher, uh, did.
Yeah, 
James: [00:53:31] I love it. I love it. Um, all right, so we progress really quick here. Let's just, let's just get over it because the one thing I wrote down is that they're, these are lovely demo boards and now know what they're called demo boards, those beautiful demo boards. And what we see is that Beth basically just.
Crushes every single 
Danny: [00:53:50] person. And so I just posted the link. Well, we'll have it in the show notes. Um, as far as the, for those who are really interested in the queen scam, and I really want to know some more context. It's a great, a great article. So yeah, she's she starts to showing people, um, and, uh, sorry, where, where do we, where are we going from there?
We jump into the game versus bore gov where we want to do some more 
James: [00:54:10] breakdowns. I think, uh, we have a, a phone call that is, is, uh, is leading to some trouble. Let's just say that. So our good friend Chloe is back and, um, she tries to 
Danny: [00:54:23] Cleo. What did I say? You said Chloe. Which is the more normal, I mean, Cleo Cleo itself is a different name than Chloe.
You're right. 
James: [00:54:31] It's correct. Those are two D those are two distinct different. Those are two 
Danny: [00:54:35] different names. Danceable 
James: [00:54:37] spelled differently. Cleo is there. She is in town for the evening and tries to bring Beth down. And Beth says, no, no, no, I am not going to do it. I got a big game. I'm in my adjournment. Uh, 
Danny: [00:54:49] and everybody watching the show, you just want Beth to stay strong and not go down.
Right. 
James: [00:54:55] I thought she was going to, I thought she was going to hold strong. It was going to be awesome. Like this was the time I know it's only episode six of seven, but like you can do it, Beth. You've been doing so good. But no, 
Danny: [00:55:07] but you also had to know she wouldn't book, even though you wanted her and thought she might because of how well she handles herself with Benny and are declined, but you already knew from the first episode, right.
That she wakes up in a heated hangover, you see a body in, in the bed, um, which we now find out was, was Cleo. Um, and, um, So anyway, what happened? So Beth goes down, she, uh, engages with Cleo. They have some drinks. They, they clearly maybe started hanging out with some guys that were there. Right. And then they have a, a long night of whatever, whatever type of STX they get into and, um, and they're, and, and drinking and all kinds of stuff.
And, and there you go, then we're, then we're now we're really in present time, the next morning where you really wish Beth had not dealt with, she did so that she could be fresh for Borga, but she's not fresh for board golf. Yeah. And we 
James: [00:55:55] don't really know what happened after that, because I I'm under the impression that just two friends kind of passed out type of stuff.
Danny: [00:56:02] That's totally true. That's totally true. Right. I guess I was implying something that maybe, maybe, maybe that's a me problem. You're right. 
James: [00:56:08] We don't know. We don't know because we don't in a bath of water. Right. She's not even in the bed. Like how has she been breathing? 
Danny: [00:56:16] I understand. That's a great point actually.
I have no idea. Thank God she didn't drown. 
James: [00:56:20] That's what I'm saying. It's it's, it's crazy to think about because she obviously wasn't awake or else she would've known anyway, she runs downstairs. Uh, here's a fun fact for you too. She runs downstairs and meets Borgata. And do you remember the outfit that she's 
Danny: [00:56:36] wearing?
Oh, man, I should. You know why? Because Peter Dockers also did an incredible article on pets, Beth Harmon's fashion sense. Um, but I don't, I don't. 
James: [00:56:48] So the, the one that she is wearing in this scene is like, this is this like green dress that is like a dark green and a light green, which are the same colors of the tranquilizer pills.
Danny: [00:57:01] Um, wow. 
James: [00:57:03] Does. Yeah, I will link to this insider.com article all 
Danny: [00:57:06] about 
James: [00:57:07] the fashion behind the Queen's gambit that I, um, Heather sent me actually 
Danny: [00:57:13] Peter's one on chess.com, which missed the boat on that particular point. Um, but sort of a lot of people talked about that, the fashion that was on your tailor joys and Beth Harmon's character on your Taylor joy as an actress and, uh, the, uh, But yeah, it was, there were clearly, uh, just like a lot of great messages were relayed on the chess board.
And I I've made reference many times. In fact, that I thought that the Whiting was incredible. Like the characters are developed on the chess board throughout the show, but, um, then there's also the, uh, the fashion statements and, uh, that are made as far as I, I didn't even get that, that that's an awesome point.
I can't wait to check out the insider article. 
James: [00:57:51] Yeah, it's a, it's a great read, kind of breaking this down. And she has a really, there's a lot of nods throughout the entire series, really talking about how they pair this up, especially when you go into the next episode, which I'm very excited to talk about next week.
Um, some fashion. Things that really speak boldly. And I think the designers and the, um, everyone that did make up and design just fantastic throughout this, but I love this, Matt. This is maybe, maybe one of my favorite matches of the entire series. Because of Beth cannot stop drinking water. I love 
Danny: [00:58:25] every aspect.
She says, she's hung over. 
James: [00:58:28] Right. She's hung over dehydrated 
Danny: [00:58:31] bleep, 
James: [00:58:31] you know, by God. And she's just pouring water in board. I was just staring intently. He's like, so yeah. Almost upset. He almost gets under her ill, almost under his skin in a way where she keeps us Downing this water and they keep giving her this tiny little thing of water.
Give the girl pitcher, SWAT, or give her 
Danny: [00:58:51] a Jara. I know. Or 
James: [00:58:53] put it a five gallon jug over there, man. Just 
Danny: [00:58:55] put it close to the table, right? Just like when, when she was just starting out, you made her play on the coffee table. Right. You know, give now, now, now she could use some coffee and some water at the table.
Oh, 
James: [00:59:06] my goodness. 
Danny: [00:59:06] I love it. I have to say there's a very famous. I'm going to share this because again, I think one of the interesting things that I do with this podcast is that unique, the unique chest stories and perspective, and this is a non to PG one, but I will say that my late and great a coach who was a very, very flawed human being and a, an alcoholic, uh, to boot Igor, Yvonne off the one who defected, uh, uh, from, from, uh, Soviet union, there's a very famous story of an event he played in LA.
I was there, it was a very sad moment, but he came to the table. So drunk and hung over. And in this case there was coffee and water on the table. And at one point he poured coffee into his cup or though he thought, or so he thought, and was actually pouring it all over his lap and it was scolding hot and he was so drunk.
He didn't notice that was when the arbiter ended the game and forfeit. And we took Igor to the hospital. Oh, my goodness. That was a wild story that happened as far as chess players showing up absolutely drunk out of their mind, which is a unique thing. I think about chess as far as sport goes. I don't know a lot of stories of like NBA players showing up like drunk or high, right.
Because of the athletic and physical demands. But I guess in some ways there are some stories of the chess world of things like that happening, so. Gotcha. 
James: [01:00:23] Yeah. It's. It's a realistic thing that I think it probably happens in more situations that we're aware of, then we're aware of, you know what I mean? I feel as though this happens in life, so, uh, you know, it is what it is and what are you going to do?
And unfortunately for bath, this is a fascinating game. I, I did a move to move breakdown and they explore, we also loaded up the Fen, but we get a, uh, Sicilian. Uh, defense open, uh, Shen 
Danny: [01:00:56] Scheveningen 
James: [01:00:57] Scheveningen, uh sozan and a flag variation all in this beautiful. 
Danny: [01:01:02] I don't know that we want to, we don't need to record this one necessarily, but I will, um, I will get to the position starting with, let's say Bishop H six and then 98.
We'll go to move 11. Is that okay? Okay. Yup. I'm there. So, um, I, again, I don't have any proof of this, but this particular variation was very popular, um, in the world championship match between Nigel short and Gary Kasparov in 1993. Um, you can. Google it, my, uh, my, my chest brothers and sisters, if you want to just look into it, just, just Google, Nigel short versus Kasparov or Gary Kasparov or something like that.
But the, the Wikipedia, it was sometime in the fall. I think of 93. In fact, I'll bring it up. Yeah, actually, okay. Night, September 7th through October 21st, that was a world championship match. And, um, this particular variation of the Chevron and Guinness was played and it was popular in the nineties era. And because we know Kasparov was a consultant on the show, even though the game itself, We have a link to it.
Um, we can actually send you to, to either boss's Explorer or I'll even give one to chess games.com, which is also a great website. Um, the game was between mega Toronto versus Elainey air Dominguez Perez. Um, but, um, anyway, this is a, there you go. I think it was an homage or more influence of Kasparov choosing a variation of the Sicilian to play.
I could, we should, we could maybe reach out to Gary and get confirmation of that, but I think so we'll just say, we'll just say that I'm right. And. Yeah, we'll just go with that. So, 
James: [01:02:32] so in this opening here, you know, Beth in her state, how, how did she do 
Danny: [01:02:37] she did, she did good this whole position here. I mean, after Bishop, which six 98 is guarding the checkmate on  the Bishop H six threatened queen takes she's seven checkmate and the  was pinned to the King.
So 98 is an only move, but this is, this whole game is like, is like all theories still, especially on move 11. By theory and theory is a term used to say it's theoretically considered best, right? So it's a short, short term chess terminology, right? If we say things like dunk and three pu three point shot, right.
You know, you know what sport I'm talking about. If I say touchdown or wide receiver, right. And chess terminology theory is a very common term for just shorthand saying this variation was considered theoretically best at the time. So this was, this was theory. Um, and, uh, anyway, the game goes on and they get a very, very standard position.
I think that even as far as move 16, they're still playing positions that have been played by multiple players, not just the linear vending as far as game. Um, and then the game ends with, or at least our report here in the explore with Bishop C1, eventually this game. Following the mega Toronto versus Lander Dominguez Perez was a draw, but she plays very well.
I mean, she plays, she plays fine despite wearing the green dress and being hung over. 
James: [01:03:55] Yeah, and we, I guess we don't really get to see the end game at all in this, from what I can remember, it's just something breaks down while she's continuously chugging water. Non-stop her hands. You will see if you re-watch this episode yet again, she starts to get into that position, which is the same position with her hands on the sides of her face of the last board golf game.
And she just. That's it it's like it's all theory up until move 18, 19, and then something happens and something breaks down. Unfortunately, don't get to see it because it would be a great end game to kind of watch to see where that went. But, um, she resigns and walks away 
Danny: [01:04:36] and there's the. There's like the, well, in the beginning of the whole show we have the flashback, right?
Yeah. Um, and so there's, there's just, um, you know, I don't know to me, like, because we know the beginning of the show because we know the way this ends, it was sort of like, this was sort of a make or break point and make or break episode. And I don't want to get into what happens in the final episode. Um, But where, you know, she's kind of like reached a crossroads, right?
It's like now it's time for her to like, understand that she has to be better. The next time she faces bore Goff. There are no late night parties with, with, uh, miss, miss Cleo. Right. And I think that she kind of has like reached the crossroads of like, is she going to let her demons get the best of her?
Right. Or is she going to like the next time she's there do something different. Right. And I think. That's like the moment of how powerful this loss is and how frustrating it is because you felt that she was primed and poised to deliver. And then, you know, kind of the late night party got the best of her.
And she, once again, falls short. Um, and it's, it's kind of a, it's kind of a somber moment, right? 
James: [01:05:46] It is. It's sad. I think because we had such success up to here, especially her crushing the boys, you know, her crushing everybody up to this point. Um, watching the demo boards go by just like watching all of this.
Um, it, it's a sad somber moment because. We her, her, her state of mind, her preparation were there. And then unfortunately, Cleo, I don't want to blame Cleo because, you know, I think Beth needs to take responsibility for, you know, going down, having drinks and the night before, one of the biggest matches, right.
I mean, of, of her life, right. Not the biggest we're going to get to it, but, uh, you know, I, I feel as though, Hey, you, you do the crime. You do the, you do the crime, you 
Danny: [01:06:31] pay the tax on the punishment. No, no, your right 
James: [01:06:37] toe for a attack and for a tone, 
Danny: [01:06:40] as they say no. No, but you're right. And, and, you know, then the rumors start to spread that she was wrong, you know, or at least at least hung over.
And then she heads back to Lexington and then the episode brings us more kind of, you know, I don't want to say depressing moments, but tough moments, right. 
James: [01:06:58] While, you know, Mr. Wheatley shows up. So 
Danny: [01:07:00] that's always a good time. That guy love that guy. Mr. Wheatley. Huh? 
James: [01:07:03] What a good solid 
Danny: [01:07:04] dude. What a good dude? 
James: [01:07:06] Um, the worst anyways, Mr.
Wheelie, doesn't want to sign, um, the house away to bath. Um, in this it's a very first thing that happens or lawyer calls says this, they meet up Mr. Wheatley, just, uh, Piece of garbage, um, to be on, I can't even look at her in the face. Just anything at all. I mean, you know, Beth. Buried Mrs. Wheeler. She paid for those expenses out of her pocket 
Danny: [01:07:31] and she loved it was her mom 
James: [01:07:34] was her mom.
Yeah. Anyways. So she, Beth buys the house from him. I love it. It wasn't very expensive. Like what? $1,700 or something like that. It's amazing. 
Danny: [01:07:45] It's pretty awesome. Back then. And I could go for a house like that. 
James: [01:07:48] Yeah. And, um, you know, she gets real excited. I think this is a. She is, she has her own shit it's or her, she owns it.
She starts to redo everything in the house. And, but then something really odd happens, which is, you know, she gets a call from the Christian crusade. And I want to ask you about this, right? Who wants to send her to Russia? Because. She, why don't you get to go to, she gets to go to Russia because she was invited or was it because she was in the, the Paris open 
Danny: [01:08:16] final.
It was the, that this, this goes back to where she won the us. Um, the Paris Paris was an invitation that happened back when Mrs. Wheatley was even still alive, right before they even went to Mexico city. This event was already on the agenda. In fact, it's sad because Mrs. Wheatley who was looking forward to Paris, never got to go right.
But no, the U S championship one was where she won the right. And again, I kind of commented in that episode. It was a couple ago that that was sort of an odd thing. I don't know that that really existed in the chess world. Um, not to say the top player in the U S wouldn't be invited by being the top player to some of these events, but.
I don't remember a direct correlation ever between like winning the us championship and being brought to light play in Russia. Right. But okay. It doesn't matter. Um, but what is very realistic is again, and I, you know, I don't know enough of the details. I'm not an expert on Bobby Fisher's wife in a way that many other would be more qualified, but I, you know, obviously know more than a lot of people.
And I can say that there was a very common trend in Fisher's life, where he was offered to be the. What would it be like the spokesperson, right. Or brands with a lot of money on the table for different things. And he said no to most of them. Um, and, um, this particular one is interesting because obviously the Christian crusade presents it as, Hey, we're in a battle right now between Jesus and the communists, you know?
And Hey, whose side are you on Jesus or the communism? Sorry. I'd love it though. 
James: [01:09:41] That's true. That's true. 
Danny: [01:09:42] But, um, yeah. And Beth, ultimately of course we know. Turns it down. Yeah. 
James: [01:09:48] Yeah. And, uh, you know, she, well, she, you know, she gets a call from Benny and, um, and you know, and then she's kind of starting to fall apart a little bit.
She doesn't, yeah. She's kind of lost hope in, in herself. Right. She has lost, um, I mean, it's a big, there's a big battle, right? She's there by herself. 
Danny: [01:10:04] Yeah, it was the last of golf. She comes home the house, and now she's in a battle again, all alone by herself. 
James: [01:10:11] She doesn't know what to do. And she spirals out of control.
I mean, she's supposed to be playing at the Kentucky open. She's got this crazy eyeliner on she's drinking heavily. She's just, it's a spiral. That's it. It wasn't like 10 minutes of her spiraling down Hill. 
Danny: [01:10:26] Basically. 
James: [01:10:28] It's a 
Danny: [01:10:28] spiral, it's a spiral. 
James: [01:10:30] It's a spot. It's like a spiral staircase. You know, like how you start, like this is going to be great.
And then you like fall down, but now you're like 
Danny: [01:10:35] spiraling down. You know, the angles are very, uh, very tight, tighter than they first look. But you're halfway down the spiral staircase. There's no turning back. You just gotta keep going. 
James: [01:10:45] Yeah, you gotta keep going. We've gone too far. And uh, yeah, this is a, this is kind of a bummer because you, this, this is, uh, A bummer ending up into the five last five seconds.
But, you know, um, we had such high hopes at this point, I think, as I did and then this to go down and even after she bought the house, she started to redo it and make it her own. But then this spiral just really occurred. And you, you feel terrible because it's reminiscent of, um, just. 
Danny: [01:11:15] Well, she's moving, she's reliving the past, right?
And it's like, she's drinking, she's dancing. She reliving painful memories. By the way, if you can hear my kids in the background, everyone, that's just going to have to be a part of the podcast. So I apologize about that. That's life. That's life there. The dad's new studio at home is not totally. Set up yet.
And the office was not ready for me to record, um, because we actually had some trouble yesterday with, uh, the first show I did from the new studio. The sound was not great. So anyway, long story short, sorry about that. Um, but, um, the, um, yeah, I mean, it's, the spiral is real and it's depressing. Like I said, and I guess I kind of jumped the gun by saying she's reaching the crossroads after losing to Borgata, but it already started like, she, you know, she.
She, she engages, you know, with, with Cleo again, not Cleo's fault, Cleo's just a friend. Right. Then, then she loses another game where her, where she was clearly. So prime now she's, it's not just that she's turning down the Christian crusade and Benny's advice. It's more like what it represents to like, like the fact that she just like, all of a sudden, just wants to be alone.
Again. Doesn't want any help. I mean, you could argue maybe it was a good thing to deny the Christian crusade and, um, Without getting it. This is interesting for like the real people who want to dive into official's life. There was a lot of, a lot of conspiracy theories. That Fisher was also a communist. Um, and at the time, not that that would, I don't even care, you know, whatever, but like, there were all kinds of like weird political things that circled, especially because of Fisher's unclear, like where his parents stood, um, as, um, anyway, all kinds of weird lineage rumors and things like that.
So like, it was just a funny thing for her to. Turn down the crucial and crusade to not take on the communist. I did. I made a note of that, but it was also another like reference to like interesting things that happened. Um, but eventually what happens here. So how does she get out of the spiral? Right. Our good old buddy.
I mean, he does it just to get out of the spiral, but guess who gets, who arrives at 
James: [01:13:08] her door? Well, so our good friend beltic is bad. 
Danny: [01:13:12] Yeah. And it's important. Cause he's, you know, At this point Harry's looking kind of, right, right. Because remember where he left her was kind of like saying, Hey, you're becoming more fee, right.
Or you are more fee who we know died of substance abuse at a young age. And it was not a very pretty thing. And so for him to kind of show up, uh, to me is kinda like we've reached the climax of our spiral. You like, he's like the, he's the guy who kind of said this and, and now he's here and she's been distracted.
And, um, and now she gets called to come in for this photo op at the, at the high school. 
James: [01:13:46] Yeah. It's like exactly where she won, uh, against beltic right at the Kentucky state championship. And, and she's, I mean, she's, like I said, the eyeliner, she's looking a hot mess. I don't even know what's going on. She's trying to emulate the artists and stuff that are on the screen, but her teeth are just, everything is yep.
Good. 
Danny: [01:14:06] It's not good. And she, and she goes there and the reason. Well, I definitely wanted to talk about the scene is not just because of the character stuff where like, if I was looking at this whole episode, it's like the buildup, the greatness, like what's, she all she conquers kind of Benny. And then she like gives into old ways and it could be really hard.
Like this was a moment in the show where when I saw it for the first time, I didn't know what we were going to get in episode seven. Like. Do the demons win or does Beth Harman win and find out every one, if you don't know, you're going to find out next week on, on blockers. Um, but, but this was, I had meal on the edge of my seat because Harry beltic shows up as sort of the pinnacle of this.
And then she goes and sees a net packer. Right. And this was a very powerful scene for me because she goes to the high school and sees this girl who she beat in her first year back when they were both like. Up and coming and kind of bonded, not just if you remember, not just over the fact that they were.
They were kind of being demeaned as two of the only women in the event, but then also, right. She had her first menstrual cycle. Right. She had her first period and they bonded it. So, and what does that tell her in this episode? Like, basically like, Hey, like you became my hero, right. Um, you know, that basically Beth became like this incredible, like she's like, wow, like you, you know, I just, I wanted to meet you kind of thing.
I wanted to see you again. I forget what she actually says, but the energy of the moment is, is that Beth became something really important to a net packer. And I thought that was super important as like a little bit of a wake up call. When, when, as you said, Beth is. Beth is like, you know, lipstick on teeth.
Like, you know, like just what she's a, she's a hot mess, right? 
James: [01:15:41] Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's not good, but you know, we do have someone that is here to save her. I think straight up is at the very, very end of this episode. Our blast from the past, Jolene comes back our favorite, maybe one of our favorite characters.
That's Beth and like towns too is, uh, is Jolene. She makes comeback. 
Danny: [01:16:00] If I have one character, I wish it was in the show more. It was Jolene. And I didn't even know how much I missed Jolene until she shows up. 
James: [01:16:07] True. Because the next episode Jolene is just, uh, I love, I love, I love every part of it. I love every part of.
Her where she's become, where she's going, how she's there for Beth through thick and thin and what a great person and a great character that we deserve more of in this series 
Danny: [01:16:25] clinic. Great, great foreshadowing by you for next week, about what we're going to dive into. I don't know how many people are listening to this.
Who've literally been holding off, finishing their show. Right to do it with the podcast that that's probably, I mean, please actually leave a comment if you're one of those few who like said, you know what? I randomly found this podcast before I had seen the show and I've been following it, please do leave a comment because I would, I'm curious if any of you exist, I'm going to guess most people have now seen it and are choosing to listen to our content because you know, They ju they enjoy it, or maybe they're lost on the internet and somehow they're accidentally here.
That seems like it's probably the majority of you, but, you know, 
James: [01:17:02] yeah. They somehow randomly, randomly stumbled upon it. Oh, interesting. Who are these people? 
Danny: [01:17:08] That's good. I got nothing else to do so. 
James: [01:17:12] Oh my goodness. Oh, I think that's going to do it for this week's coffee. I was blunders. I'm so excited for next week, Danny.
The Epic conclusion. Of the Queen's gambit. I can't wait to rewatch it. I have watched it. I know what happens, but I have not rewatched it. And when you rewatch it for the second or 18th time, it is the most amazing thing. You just discover so many great things. I cannot wait to discuss this Epic, Epic 
Danny: [01:17:38] conclusion yet ditto.
And I'll say, especially because of how the chess world felt about the way it ended. And non chess world, right? I mean, obviously we know it's a very critically acclaimed show and, and was listed again, he got some recent love as one of the best shows of 2020. Um, so, so yeah, we're going to do it. Uh we'll we'll finally be able to just talk about every episode with no more spoilers.
Again, if you are one of the few, please leave a comment and let us know. Cause I just, I am gen generally curious. Um, but art man, I can't wait for next week. All right, me 
James: [01:18:08] too. All right. Don't forget to, like Danny said, read, Aerostar write a comment on the YouTube page on blenders, out of fam or to send us an email.
There's a contact button on blenders RFM. Super appreciate it. So until next week, this has been your coffee house blunder. 
Danny: [01:18:23] Yes.