Tessa  0:23  
Welcome to nanny OGS bookclub a Discworld podcast. Join us as we read through all 41 of the fantastical and outrageous Discworld novels. I'm Tessa. 

Nigel  0:34  
And I'm Nigel. 

Tessa  0:36  
This is episode nine. Reaper man. Can you believe we're already at nine episodes? 

Nigel  0:42  
No, that's quite bizarre. Yeah, I know. Like I was thinking about I was like, man, we've done nine episodes this year, I feel very productive. But it's also like, I don't believe anything really. In terms of episode count, I'm just generally like, because as we record this, archive admirers, I have to edit up episode 22. Wow, on Monday, which is like, a 10th of the way through the series we're discussing now over a 10 Day episode of hyper fixations that goes out tomorrow as we're recording this because we're doing on Thursday is going to be our 30th episode. That's so many episodes, like, what are even numbers? I don't know. But when you consider the archive of Mara as one that's like every two weeks, and then we switch to a weekly release hyper fixations. So, you know, like, it could have been higher, like, I know, monkey is a weekly show. But also, I don't know, I'd like I can't fathom that. 

Tessa  1:38  
We just hit I believe episode 82 With monkey, so we're definitely gonna get to Episode 100. This year. I'm very excited about it. And that's not counting any of like the mini series or anything like that. 

Nigel  1:50  
Yeah, us all released like, like 70 Something episodes total. 

Tessa  1:55  
Yeah, it's a lot. And I was in every single one of them. I realized that, at the end of last year that I had been in all of the monkey episodes. That will not be true this year. But it was true last year. Reaper man is the 11th Discworld novel and the second in the death series, published in 1991. It is the first Discworld book that we've read that was published while I was alive. All the other ones before I was born that we've done so far. Part of this book was adapted into a short animated movie called Welcome to the Discworld in 1996. With Christopher Lee as death. Yeah, I'm behind that. I think Chris really has the gravitas to pull it off because like, Chris, really like he was sorry, mom. But then also before that he was Dracula, sherlock and mycroft. I'm pretty sure he also made like a death metal to death metal albums. I think Christopher Lee, like you mentioned has like a really long history with the Hammer Horror films. Yeah, like the mid century. So there's a lot of that like horror background for him. And he does the voice. I mean, there are people that I think can pull off that voice. It's very broad. That's what all that's all like, I can't do it. But it's a very broad and deep voice, which I think is I think it's key to death in Discworld. Because you can hear a deep voice Yeah, but it has to be like broad This is a voice that will be heard. It's a voice that originates in like the depths of your vocal cords. It it needs to sound echoey without actually echoing the title of this novel is a reference to the 1984 cold movie Repo Man by Alex Cox, which I have not seen. But now kind of wants to see. I haven't seen it either. I got the repo man Pumbaa then also just I think that's like a more culturally, like present thing, the concept of a repo man. Like there's a whole bunch of shows about that now on TV about like, Repo Men who go and, you know, reclaim possessions if you're, if you can't pay your debts and stuff. I think that the term Repo Man has sort of become more part of pop culture oeuvre, like we, we don't necessarily associate it with the 1984 film anymore. It's kind of become detached from that. But it is interesting that this specifically is referencing that film. Yeah, so brief summary. The auditors of reality have had enough of deaths obsession with humans and their personalities, so they fire him, forcing him to join the human world with Binky and what little time he has given. He finds work as a field hand, but adjusting to human life is harder and more terrifying than he ever imagined. Meanwhile, window Poons is a wizard and wizards always know the exact time of their death. But when death doesn't show up to take him window must adjust to his new life as a zombie and investigate why there's so much life force building up in ONk morepork It's actually really hard to summarize this book that was about the best I could do, because there's several very disparate storylines going on in this book. But what were your initial reactions to this novel? Nigel?

Nigel  5:13  
This novel is great. Very hard to write, though. Because I really, really liked a lot of it. And there were certain parts of that was just like, I don't know. So I ended up giving it a 4.3 which on Goodreads means I gave it four stars, because like anything from a half star up gets the next star, if that makes sense. Like anything 4.5 And above gets given five stars, because it's like from nine to 10, if you imagine honor, like out of 10 scale. So like, it's it's not the best rated Discworld book that I've read, that would be Guards, guards, how does it compare to march the first novel in the death series? I think I preferred it to more. Really, okay. Why is that? I'm not sure. I think, like it feels like a sequel to more in the sense that two films or games that are one is a spiritual successor of the other are sequels. Like one is a more mature examination of the things that the other one is trying to do. You know, like, more is really to repo man in the sense that Albert and death appear. And like that's it, which that's another thing. When does this book take place? Because I don't know. I want to get into this later about stuff. But like when the hell does this book take place? Is there an official canon timeline for when each of the books takes place in Discworld? That is a great question. We know it takes place in the century of the fruitbat, which is a joke that is ongoing. But no, I mean, in relation to the other books, it has to be after sorcery because we have a new Arch Chancellor. Yeah, but also like it could be before when you think about it, because they say also that the Earth Chancellor's have about a lifespan of 11 months?

Tessa  7:10  
Well, this is where I come in with some knowledge, read Oh, he is here to stay, he is not going to disappear, like cutting goal and ways to goose and Weatherwax. The others are Chancellor's we've seen so far,

Nigel  7:25  
I wonder was the position of the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher in Harry Potter loads as I am to bring it up inspired by the our chancellor of the unseen University. I thought about that, too. Actually, as I was reading it, I wasn't sure whether to bring it up or not. But yeah, there is a joke about halfway through the book where the arch Chancellor is really like a 12 month position, because the wizards are always jockeying for position or something terrible happens to the arch Chancellor. So it's almost like a joke at the previous books expense going on words, this is really the lineup that we have. And I guess we should talk about it because it's one of my favorite parts of this book and other books that these characters appear in. Red. Kohli is the new arts Chancellor. And he is here to stay, as are the lecture in recent runes, the Dean the bursar, the senior Wrangler, these are all characters that kind of form a core. This is what the unseen University is now. And when I think of the unseen University, I think of these characters, I actually don't think about the arched Chancellor's from the 80s as much unless I'm thinking about those specific books. So like, to me, this was great because I was like, Oh, yes, they're here. They're finally here. The people that I actually really care about in the unseen University, what did you think about Monstrum red coli and this particular group of faculty members, I thought they were like, patently ridiculous in a best possible way. Because it's like, what's your raid Collie is like genetically predisposed not to be told to shut up, like he's never heard of before, up until he's told not to swear, which I thought was very funny. They're like the Three Stooges, but there's five of them where they're all like completely and utterly moronic, but like they're able to get stuff done. Each of them brings something to the table that the other one doesn't. They kind of bicker their way into a solution. The conversations, the way that they talk to each other is so funny, every single time that we are watching them try to solve a problem and they stumble their way into a solution because they're all incredibly smart, but in like the stupidest way possible. Like to me this is one of the best groups of people like groups of characters, I should say this is one of the best groups of characters because they're just a bunch of old men trying to like Solve a problem. It's like a herd of cats almost like they're not predisposed to group work. But they're all sort of being forced into group work by red Collie and by their situation, yeah, here we go. The dean hung his head. Oh, yes, our chancellor, and White House and everything gone, boom. I put a slight delay on it our Chancellor, I thought perhaps we ought to get out before things happened. Good thinking that man. It's just this like back and forth. And the poor Bursar, and his anxiety is being like, actively triggered by the other wizards. But he's still very helpful to them. It's just such a strange group of people, but it works. So well. What did you think about muster read Kali and his and his wizard tracks? There's a lot of stuff in Discworld in general. And in this book about the advance of modernization, you know, specifically, like I guess in fantasy, it'll always be the advance of like, towards steampunk era. You see it in the Mistborn books and stuff that advance from like, traditional fantasy to, you know, into more steampunk stuff, and that's kind of happening with like, the combination harvester in this, but like the advance of like, exercise culture, is something that's distinctly modern, but like it's not something you think about it nearly feels like a critique of, of like 80s 90s America with like, the whole lycra tracksuit, you know, like step aerobics type thing where everyone's wearing their their head like he's wearing a headband this any like, one of those, those fluffy ones, they that's how they describe him running around the corridors. I'm pretty sure his wizard hat is tied firmly onto his head with a string so he still wears the hat. But yeah, his robes are like a garish blue and red tracksuit,

it's very much like you would definitely see him jogging in a like, well to do middle class neighborhood in 1987. You know, and he then he go past the blockbuster or something. That's where I imagine mushroom like mushroom red curly, seems like the platonic ideal of what the father of a nuclear family was in the 80s and 90s. Because we had gone past this concept of the father being the sole breadwinner from the 50s and 60s which Discworld you know, wasn't written and doesn't really harken back to so it was real contemporary society. But this whole thing of like he has to provide, but in this case, like, the faculty of senior staff in the unseen University is a nuclear in the like, literal sense of the word family, where they're like, they're just about to like bubble over and destroy everything all the time. I love the description of him at the beginning where they say he's either the best or worst or Chancellor depending on how you look at it. But yeah, he liked jogs around the university buildings, he'd shout cheerfully up at them because fundamental to the makeup of people like muster um, red Kohli is an iron belief that everyone would like it to if only they tried it. Maybe he'll die. They told one another hopefully as they watched him try to break the crest on the river on for an early morning dip. All this healthy exercise can't be good for him. Stories trickled back to the university, the arch Chancellor had gone two rounds bare fisted with detritus, the huge oddjob troll at the mended drum. The arch Chancellor had arm wrestled with a librarian for a bet. And although of course he hadn't one still had his arm afterwards, the arch Chancellor wanted the university to form its own football team for the big city game on hogs watch day, intellectually red Collie maintained his position for two reasons. One was that he never ever changed his mind about anything. The other was that it took him several minutes to understand any new idea put to him. And this is a very valuable trait in a leader because anything anyone is still trying to explain to you after two minutes is probably important. And anything they give up after a mere minute or so is almost certainly something they shouldn't have been bothering you with in the first place. That told me everything I needed to know about red coli. He's just a very set in his ways. But those ways are extremely new and different from any arts Chancellor we've seen before in these books. Yeah, but also you know that he must be good if that's what opinions of him are. The fact that there's no one who's willing to take a middle ground one way or the other between of either he's the best for what he represents in this newness or he's the worst for trying to bring it in. But no one is occupying a middle ground when it comes to mushroom red color. He has a very divisive character in that way. And also very interesting is the revelation about halfway through the book that he has a brother who is the head the high priest in Ogmore. Pork he is the head of the priest guild in Moorpark which kind of Yeah, to me that almost Seems like you know, like those movies where you have two brothers who are on opposite sides of the law, like you have one that's like the sheriff and one that's like, the head of like the outlaws or whatever. Because the wizards and priests hate each other, for understandable reasons, they're two different paradigms for looking at the universe, right? One is religious, and one is inherently magical. The Wizards occupy the sun, the science side of the science, Faith divine, because it's like they're, you know, like, they're both extra sensory things. But male magic is just geometry. Right? You know, I love how they just like, as the wizards and priests are fighting with each other, they just like knock off for a smoke. Like, they just talk about like, okay, is this is this really you tell me, is it really you? Is it your people? I definitely feel like I've seen or read this type of scene before. You know, where it's just like that where, like, especially the old mum wants to know whether you be back for Christmas type dialog. I'm nearly sure that I've read or seen that somewhere. And it's this isn't like, oh, it was stolen, because this was written beforehand. But it's like, you know, this is another thing. It's a specific thing that's being made reference to maybe not like any one particular work, but you know, that kind of thing. I love that scene. And I love that it's only halfway through the scene that we realize that they're actually brothers like at first you just think like, oh, well, they're just two people who are heads of their respective organizations that like, know and respect each other. But then it's like, no, they're actually brothers. Like they have to take mom to dinner next week.

Yeah. What did you think of the other wizard, so lecture and recent runes, the Dean the bursar, the senior Wrangler, which is a great faculty title, I want to be a senior Wrangler. They're exactly who they need to be, you know, to make up that, like, comedic lineup, and that's what I think effectively there. And again, this is not meant to be a criticism. Like I think that's the whole point. Because previous our Chancellor's and heads of the faculty were they were kind of like self serious. You know, like, I don't know, I was I kind of liked, um, Guldur Weatherwax. In the color of magic, no, not the color magic light. Fantastic. Because he was like, very much, you don't get up early enough in the day to pull one up all over me because I don't go to sleep. But he's very much self serious. On Wayzgoose seemed a bit like that as well. And Kurt Angle was like, well, everything has been like this before. So that's how it should stay. But then also, like, maybe I'll get remembered if I change thing, I don't know. But all of these heads of the faculty lecture in recent rooms, the bursar, the chancellor as well, they're all like the right balance between, you know, the old guard, and also like, these things are happening. We've never seen them before. So like I know, just got to deal with them, I guess. You say like, they're, they're going to be the ones to stick around. I think that's probably why because they're, whether they like it or not, they're the people to deal with problems that they've never encountered. And so just being like, Oh, well, it's almost like before with the university, all of those characters, all of those personalities were almost too unbalanced. Like there was too much cutthroat Ness, there's too much magical ambition. This seems like the right blend of personalities to actually achieve equilibrium, because there is some ambition. But a lot of these characters are almost too they get in their own way too much to do actual damage to each other. I think that that works really well, not just comedically, but actually works pretty well to achieve like an actual sustainable ecosystem for the unseen University. And it's very Pratchett, right? Like, you don't want someone in charge who's too clever. Because clever people tend to mess things up, right? You want somebody in charge who could fix things, but won't be so clever that they get in their own way or they don't you know, they're not going to cause the mage worse three, right, like this group of people is not going to do that because they can't they don't know how. Yeah, I guess so. While we're at the unseen University, let's talk about Wendell Poons. Oh, my beloved. I don't want to get into some of it now because it touches into a larger point that I want to get into later, which is her by my message had a revelation. I'm so excited. Oh, well, I hope that now I can actually follow through on it. But anyway, I know he's so precious where he's just like he's dead. But also like, he doesn't want to be a bother seeds with red coli and the wizards are like, trying to kill him. And he's just like, oh, this is really nice of you, with their like, try and bury him. And then it's like, it didn't work. Oh, but you can try again, if you are he jumps off the bridge to try and drown himself in the arm and then gets out of it after a while then it's just like, I didn't like sitting still at the bottom. He was like, It's too dark. It took me a while to find the steps to get out. Yeah, I think it's interesting that we get to see him before he dies at the beginning. And he's just this really grumpy, almost senile old man. And then after he dies, he almost becomes a different character, because he now has like access to all these parts of his brain and body that he didn't that were clouded by old age, stuff like pain, and stuff like memory, and that kind of thing. And now he's like this much more clear, sighted individual. He's also very strong, right? He's got like zombie super strength

is a lot of the rhetoric that people in like Future Shock thrillers use when they're trying to like sell, I don't know, like, technology, which allows you, your consciousness to transcend your mortal form or to like reverse aging or something, you know, where it's like, you know, your senses are dulled, and this isn't you anymore. And it really like, that's very ablest. But like the way that the way that like window Poons does this is just like, well, he just decides to use his own body better, right? Because now he doesn't have an end point. The language being that his body isn't suitable. It's more just like, well, he's gonna use it to the full extent that he possibly can. It's a nice like circumvention of a pitfall that maybe people don't intentionally go into, but they can accidentally fall into just based on like, the themes that they're writing in the way it's presented, especially at the beginning when he like wakes up, and he's not dead, right. And he's got to like, try to figure out how to use his body. It's got a lot of like, very body horror type of language about it, because he's suddenly aware of everything that's going on in his body, which most people aren't aware, most systems in the body are autonomic, right? Like, I am not when I as I'm sitting here, I am not telling my stomach to digest my breakfast, or my heart to keep beating, or you know, my liver to do what my liver does, right? Like, those things happen automatically. I'm not consciously thinking about those things. But for window Poons to exist after death, and to actually do things, he has to tell all of these processes to have like, he's got to constantly be thinking about, like, what does the liver do, right? Like, he's like, Wait, can I have a drink with my Can I like, tell my liver to handle that? He is super strong. And he is a lot more clear minded, but he has to do a lot more work for that than he would have if he had been alive. And touching on the Super Strength part. This is how I'm gonna segue into Nigel quotes the mountain goats. Yay, I thought it was really really sad, the bit where he has to, like break into the unseen University to like, get into his room, people have already put stuff in because he's dead. And obviously, like, they've never really had a case of revenants. And this is what red shoe is trying to advocate for. But you know, like, it's incredibly sad how quickly they move on. And it's not really a thing that you can apply 100% across the board. You know, a lot of people are very sad for a long time when they lose a loved one, but it's just like, oh, well, he is dead. We can put the room to some other use. There's a mountain goat song called Genesis 33. It's another one of the Bible verse songs from the life of the world to come. And it's all about going back home. No, sorry. That's the wrong one. It's Genesis 323 33 is a different sad song. This one is about like trying to go back to places that you were from. And the narrator of that one also breaks into his own like childhood home. You know, like he knows how to get in. He says at one point. See how the people here live now hope they're better at it than I was. And then the chorus is just I used to live here. I used to live here. I used to live here. I used to live here. yours up on the mantel, nobody I know, I stand by the tiny furnace where the long shadows grow. Living room, two bedroom, two kitchen familiar and warm hours spent starving within these walls, sound of a distant storm and then fight through the ghosts in the hallway duck and weave stand by the door with my eyes closed when it's time to leave. And then as well just this song has one of my favorite ever like descriptions in a song mount goats are really good at doing it. So bring it up. It's not apropos to Window tunes, but it's the bridge at the end, break the lock of my own garden gate. So he has to break into his own house when he gets back to where he's living. Now, when I get home after dark sit looking up at the stairs outside like teeth in the mouth of a shark.

He has to break back in like you said, but also like when he first comes back. Like when he first comes and reveals himself to the faculty. They're like, Well, I'm not giving his bedroom back like like is very much like they just suddenly moved on. And part of that might be because wizards are so prepared for their own deaths, right? Like they throw him like a going away party. And so like that's kind of a ritual of moving on. It's kind of a thing that's supposed to help. Okay, he's moving on. He's leaving, like we have to move on to, but at the same time, yeah, it's really sad, like the idea that he has to come back. And he's like thinking about like, Wait, do I have money? Like, did I leave my money to myself and my will? What's the legal recourse here? For me, someone who is existing longer than I want it to exist? Because he doesn't really want to be alive or undead. He wanted to move on. And did you notice that he wants to come back as a woman like he believes in reincarnation, and he plans on coming back as a woman? Yes. But it's also like, quite sad, because they do all they do also say before he dies that like no one is listening to him. And he gets quite upset the fact that like, it's his own going away party, and no one really seems to care. They're bickering too much. Because that's their dynamic. I like Wendell Poons. As a character, I honestly kind of want a book where Windell Poons is reborn as a woman, like I kind of want to read that book. But I thought Windell would get would get out of this alive. Well. Yeah, I thought that that would be the like, that would be the kindness granted window, you know, where he would just learn and accept his life as being on dead and that would have been the transition, you know, especially because we meet the oh, what are they called the second Chancers something, the Fresh Start club, the support group for the undead run by Red Shoe. Red. She is a reoccurring minor character, so Oh, excellent. Yeah, just because they spent so much time building up. Red Shoe lupine, the not for our TOS count x a lot. You know, Mr. X a lot, Mr. X a lot. Even Yeah, Shepell. Yeah, schlep all the the shy bogey man who has a moment where he explicitly says, Oh, he came out of the closet and has found himself. I thought, like, after all the building up that they would have done that, especially after the themes of the novel would have been like, well, it's okay to live like this. You know.

Tessa  28:15  
So we're going to talk about deaths character art, because there's really two different threads, right. There's the window, Poons, ONC, morepork, as you know, diversity thread and then there's deaths thread, and we're going to talk about death thread. But I do really love the part at the end, where window has this conversation with death, that the two threads come together. And he says, you know, said Wendell, it's a wonderful afterlife. Where were you? I was busy. window wasn't really listening. I've met people I never even knew existed. I've done all sorts of things. I've really gotten to know who Wendell Poons is. Who is he then? Wendell wounds. I thought that was actually a very good wrap up to that character or like at least a it brings the threads together really well, because a lot of this book is also about death, figuring out who he really is. It also to me tells me that Wendell Poons like he needed this addendum epilogue codicil to his life, he would have never figured out who Wendell Poons really was if it wasn't for this brief afterlife that he gets because of this sort of accident of death getting fired.

Nigel  29:28  
Yeah, there's definitely like a why a John Hughes, Wes Anderson film, you know, like, that will be called something like the wonderful afterlife of window Poons or something like that. And I would like definitely watch or read the shit out of that, you know, like, and that's my main criticism of the book where it's like, why is the ONC more pork plot thread like sash? I understand the window Poons thing and he's He's learning to live after death, which is fine, because death is learning to live after death. Right? But what like what's with the shopping trolley thing? I don't understand what like, Oh, it's a great plot, but I feel like it like it doesn't fit with the book to me like, I think that could have been a separate book on its own. And the whole thing could have been like a lampoon slash critique of consumer capitalism, which is what it tries to be. And it would have been really nice to have. Because like, we get a brief glimpse of cut my own throat dribbler. I don't think it fits. I feel like they're like, you could have definitely repurposed the whole plotline with the excess life energy and had Windell investigate that and made like a different thing out of it, and still kept the same, you know, like the same plot arc with the freshstart Club. It would have nothing to do with these trolleys on the like, because it's a mall that's being built. What does that got to do with it? Yeah, I really liked the stuff at the start, you know, where it was, like hinting at that we were like, with the Vegas language, you know, like, a something went plop, you know, like the cupboard started to fill up that kind of vague stuff, because it was evocative of how they talked about the place where the dragons are dormant at the start of Guards, guards, but then I really didn't like where it went. I liked the whole idea of the snow globes, and I liked the life force thing. One of the funniest things in the book to me is how red coli swears kept taking shape. Because I could just, this was a moment where I just thought of Terry Pratchett sitting down in front of his like eight screen computer, or whatever version of that he had in the 90s giggling to himself as he tried to figure out like what the word bloody with look like, as a swear come to life. Like all of that was very funny to me. That could have been the actual plot, because I'm not even completely sure how the mall and the lifeforce thing are connected with each other. Because the implication is that this has happened before to other cities. The whole metaphor, like Windows says that it's like a predator. It's a parasite. You have a city that's alive. And then this other life form comes along and it's a mall, even though they don't use the word mall until the very end. So if you weren't paying attention, it would be very easy to be like, What is this thing that's happening over on the side and it sort of drains the life force from a city and that's supposed to be like a metaphor for capitalism, corporate consumerist culture, killing urban centers and city life. But it's not clear how it's connected to the life force thing. It's not clear how it's connected to the whole death being fired thing. It's a death book. I don't, it seems to be its own story, like would this have happened even if death hadn't been fired? Like, that's very confusing to me. Because from what I understand, especially based off of the titles of later books, there's a lot to do with modernization, you know, like going postal and raising steam seem to indicate that there's like, either, someone goes crazy, but I feel like that's a pun on Pratchett's part, you know, like, how equal rights is upon and it's just like his puns. Yeah, I feel like it's actually to do with the postal system on raising steam has a train on the cover. So it seems to be like that's the advancement into like steampunk stuff. Also moving pictures, which I bought recently, like, it talks about Holy wood on the back. Right. You know, it's an interesting theme. And it's definitely like being done especially like how to flower God, we haven't talked about to flower and I wonder how he's getting on. You know, has this camera where he's the first tourists to the Discworld. And it could have been done in that series. I think if that is the series. Yeah, it's out of place because it's a death book. I think.

Tessa  34:05  
Usually with Pratchett when he he's very good at this just eerie fantasy imagery that's like, juxtaposed with the meta humor and the puns and the jokes. I had more difficulty imagining this mall. Then I did the White towers from sorcery, or like the gods in the sun and the pyramids in that like 90 degree parallel universe of pyramids. I was just like, is this a mall? Is it like a living creature like it took me probably three reads to realize that this moving staircase they were going down was an escalator like it just it took me much longer to understand what was happening in this section of the book than it did in previous books.

Nigel  34:51  
Yeah, actually, just briefly on pyramids. I think this is the first one we've read so far. The doesn't have a reference to sorts. Yeah, I didn't notice any sort references either maybe we should start keeping track of that in our references to sort. Yes, I'm gonna write that down. Actually, we should do that. Well, yeah, references to store in Reaper Man Zero. Yeah, I'll go back and just get it like download the digital copies and keyword search source just so we're, we're able to pinpoint the number of them. I'm on it I'm on Yeah, I wanted to point out that the stuff with the mall and the wizards fighting the trolleys and the mall, there's a lot of references to the movie Aliens in there there's a scene where in Aliens where they say remember short controlled bursts. And there's a scene in this book where Red coli says remember wild and uncontrolled bursts. And of course, like all the tentacles and like the queen mother, that's like a monster that's all very aliens. I also really appreciated that there is a scene because the Dean kind of goes off the rails a little bit with with yo and going kind of going gung ho, I appreciate it that there's a scene where I think it's red Kohli calls him out for cultural appropriation where he says like, that's not that's not the same culture. It doesn't make any sense in the context that you're using it. I appreciate that. And they say like, they say, Oh, what do you say and they say bonsai, which like the trees but then their their thing of BA ends at a I bonsai Yeah, but I also really enjoyed the the references to like, real world things. This is the thing Discworld does where it's like, this is the exact same thing, but we have a different name for it. Like, where death is in the bar and he plays pond instead of pool. Yes. Or what's the version of monopoly that he plays? Where it's like lists of possession exclusive possession? Yeah, that's an ongoing joke, because we've heard that before where he says I'll play any game, just not the one with the the properties I always get confused. We still haven't figured out what the bridge game they're playing, whether it's bridge or pontoon. We also get a reference to cripple Mr. Onion, which is like a poker kind of style game that we'll see later in later books as well. What is what is that a reference to when I read it? I thought they were referencing beggar me neighbor. But I don't actually know what beggar me neighbor is. I know it's a game that I'm pretty sure I played with my granny once or twice. And it's also like referenced in Great Expectations. It's the game that Miss Havisham makes Estelle play with PIP, you know, make him bag. Okay, so I just looked up crippled Mr. AUGHH in some Discworld fans have figured out how to play it. So I'm going to send you this link, because we don't have time to go through it right now. But apparently there are like a dual bonus episode where we play cripple Mr. Mr. Again, I would be I think we'd have to make ourselves a deck of cards though, too, because it's like an eight suit deck. That'll be interesting. That should be something we definitely investigate. There's also an Indiana Jones reference at one point, because guess that's what it was? Is that what your thoughts are? Because yeah, well, yeah. Mom with the with the with the whip made it as far as the darts. Yeah. So you get that? This feels like the Avengers of Discworld so far. Because it's like it's got a bit of everything. You know, we have all these cameos. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, we have Colin who is from the watch books. And he's guarding the bridge because he assumes that one day someone will try to steal it. Which knowing more pork is not wrong. Yeah, I feel like if that's not paid off somehow, I am a very not annoyed because it's like a throwaway gag. But I'm going to be like very confused as to why it's not. Yeah, I wasn't expecting it. But I was expecting like other of the watch characters to appear. And that's what confused me about the timeline. So to return briefly to the timeline, the patrician obviously, he's there. That's great. One of the best descriptions of the patrician happens in this book and where he appears behind them after while people are trying to dig him out of his office. They say he can only be something which could only be described as human by default. I love the patrician. The patrician is, I think my favorite character. Oh, even more than the librarian. I don't

know like in this book, like out of the cameos, maybe. Because it's like the librarian death and the patrician kind of like depending on the story and their function in it like it goes up and down. Because he doesn't really add anything to it. He's just there because he wants to know, whether it's the wizards and whether the wizards can do anything and then he's not there anymore. Right you Yeah, so we have him and we have the librarian and we have Colin and we've caught me on throw Dibbler the one scene that he's in where they're talking and suddenly he appears behind them out of a secret passage. Like that's classic vetinari Like that's a reference to his origins have we talked about his origins yet? I couldn't remember if they actually talked about who he was. Like what? Know his situation is okay. Well, then I won't spoil it because it definitely comes up in a later book. This is a hint as to his origins, the way that he can sneak up on people like this. See a stage magician, stage magician note. There are a couple other cameos at one point, Mrs. flit worth or sorry Ms. flit worth Yeah, Miss they take those types of things very seriously in those parts, right Ms. flit worth references that there's a which link or way Yes, and then that's what I remembered we have a tease we have a post credit tease nearly for the amazing Morrison is educated rodents.

Tessa  41:02  
Yes. So we have like a future cameo cuz yeah, it comes up a couple of times, the pied piper storyline of you know, the rats and then them being charmed out of the city. But it turns out that was a scam perpetrated by the amazing Maurice and his educated Rodin's, which is, of course, the title of a Discworld book later that actually is about the amazing Murray's and his educated broadens. That's gonna be a film that's coming out. At some point in the next couple years. I think Emily herself she Emilia Clarke. Yeah, Emilia Clarke, isn't it? We also get a very brief reference to Isabel when Miss blidworth asked Steph if he has any children. And he says I have a daughter, but we don't we've lost touch. So that's a reference to Isabel. They obviously don't talk much anymore. There's also of course, Albert is at the beginning of this book, when we see deaths house. He's also at the end of this book, just quietly, bubbling away.

Nigel  41:58  
Yeah, I'll just I'm pretty sure. Doesn't Albert choose to die at the end of more? Or he dies? Right? No, I don't think so. Albert doesn't want to die. Yeah, but I don't know. I thought, doesn't he like die? Because he's, no, I may be remembering more wrong, because he like goes into the real world, but I'm pretty sure right? Use his fate. Right? Well, so anytime he's in the real world, His time is ticking by and he only has about two months of time left. So he like hoards it but when he gets in death's house, the time stops. So he progressed closer to death in more, but he didn't actually die. Right. Okay. But that's right. That was what's confusing me because I thought he had died. So I was like, then it takes place prior to Moore's. Which is weird, because like more has a reference to rinse wind when Albert goes the unseen university. But then resin is still Mia.

Tessa  43:02  
Yes, he is. He's still not he's still not around. No, this definitely takes place after more because Isabel, they've lost touch. She obviously is gone. She lives with Mort now. There are two other cameos although they are for future books as well, just like the amazing Maurice, we get a reference to the continent of x x x, x, which is the main setting of the last continent, which is a rinse wind book later on. It's also known as 4x. It is a very clear reference to Australia that is supposed to be the Australia of the Discworld. We also get a footnote that talks about the disk World's Greatest Lover Kassa neuter the dwarf who uses a stepladder. That is a character that we will actually see in a later book as well. So those are the cameos that I noticed in this book. That's opponent Casanova. Exactly CASAA neuter. So you didn't like the ball stuff? I didn't really either. But what did you think about the Fresh Start club with rheged? Sue? Red Shoe, Red Shoe red shoe, the zombie and the other members.

Nigel  44:11  
Oh, I love them. They're so there's such like a Breakfast Club of of societal. I'm always like, problematic as the Breakfast Club is that kind of like trope I'm a sucker for. So the misfits all getting together. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, I don't know. It's something that you really don't consider in fantasy settings. It's like, well, what happens to people after they die? And if they come back if there's that magic, also, did you catch the Bob Dylan reference? I did not. Yeah, so this is a thing. So as we're reading more and more of the Discworld, it's becoming increasingly clear, which part of collaborations that Terry Pratchett has written You know, yes, like the horsemen in good omens is very much Pratchett. So, when he shows up at the Fresh Start club and Red Shoe invites him in he says don't stand in the doorway don't block up the hall, which is a line from the times they're changing, which is interesting because that verse is a call to em act of politicians. Now senators know congressmen, please heed the call, don't stand in the doorway don't block up the hall. Right? And they talk about how he would make them sing we will overcome which is another like 60s protest song. Yo, yeah, that that definitely makes sense. Like, it seems the Pratchett is a fan of Dylan. Because in the long Earth, which he wrote, like the first book of the long road series, which is also called alarm Earth, there's a character who, like her main personality trait, like as we're introduced her at the start, is that she knows all the words to all the Bob Dylan songs. She resigns with a line and I can't remember it on my Book of the long Earth is in Westmeath. And so I couldn't find a digital copy of it online. I'm going to try and just like in the background, now, she resigns with a line from a Dylan song. And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I, I think it's this exact line. You know, don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall, something like that.

Tessa  46:30  
The freshstart Club is really interesting because red Chu is very much like dead rights. He wants rights for the undead. He is speaking like what he's talking about sounds very much like community organizing for civil rights. The others just seem to treat it more like it's a get together like a support group. They are very much less invested in the rights for the undead as much as red Chu is. So the first time I read it, I did not care about Arthur and Doreen winkling, like I just did not care about them as characters they seemed. I think when I was a teenager, I was just more into cool vampires than I was into this. I laughed so hard at every single scene that they were in, especially when Arthur winking describes vampirism as a curse because he's lower middle class with an upper class condition. Yeah, that was one of my favorite lines of this book.

Nigel  47:28  
But I think as well, I think this type of thing hits different in the wake of what we do in the shadows. Mm hmm. The Tyco ytt film but also more specifically the series because I read Arthur when kings as Laszlo from the series, who's played by Matt Berry, who definitely gives off the vibe of, you know, someone who's afflicted with an upper class condition. Vampires are such part of the cultural consciousness now, and we have all different types of vampires. But it's definitely a throwback to vampires are supposed to be like a metaphor for the aristocracy. Like the whole point of Dracula coming in, and like killing Lucy, in Dracula is that it's, you know, an old, aristocratic other, you know, somebody from somewhere else is coming in, and he's actually sucking the blood of like a white middle class young woman, like, you know, like so it's supposed to be like, the metaphor for the way that the aristocracy like lives off of the merchant class, the the middle class, so I appreciated this idea of so many of the trappings of vampirism are associated with wealth and aristocracy and he's just this middle class merchant who's just trying to like, make his way through life. Yeah. Mr. X alight. Also very funny, the way he gives notes to people very politely. Yeah, before they're about to die. My favorite is when death is like I've been given a badly misspelled note by a banshee. Yeah, it just says Okay, we're almost an hour in and we still haven't talked about death. But before we get there, this is gonna be a long episodes. There's one other encore port character or set of characters that we need to talk about, which is Mrs. Cake, who is a medium but actually a small Liudmyla her daughter who turns into a wolf person once a month, and of course, one man bucket. I didn't particularly care for Miss cake a lot. I don't know. The way her character is, is just kind of like cantankerous old lady. But what I really liked was the fact that she has her premonition on all the time and is constantly answering people's questions before they ask them. Oh, my God, the conversation between her and red coli was infuriating. Yeah, because red coli Absolutely cannot. He's like physically incapable of of stopping and like actually observing what's happening. And it just felt like another old school jolly old chap, you know, ignoring a woman who's trying to like tell him something. Yeah, that really infuriated me. She's a character we're going to see again, she is a part of the Ogmore porque fabric. I really like her. I think that the joke about her and religion is really funny. The scene at the end where the two high priests grab each other and terror because they think it's Mrs. Cake who's coming in past all of their traps, but it's actually just death and they're like, oh, okay, phew. Yeah, that was very funny. But I do not like one man bucket and I do not like their whole shtick of her. Like he's like her spirit guide or her look familiar, mainly because I find it to be just on the edge of insulting towards indigenous people, even though he's not supposed to be like, he's supposed to be someone who grew up in NOC morepork. But he is also supposed to be an indigenous person. Yeah. And he's like an alcoholic. And he like takes on these trappings of some very like kind of racist stereotypes even though they're immediately undercut by Mrs. Cake saying, Stop talking like that. That's not who you are. Yeah, it definitely read this like, yeah, I don't know like Orientalist mysticism nearly like, you know, the way that people nearly fetishize Buddhist monks. And like, the idea of, oh, here's a shaman who can call out to other worlds and stuff. I didn't enjoy that. But I enjoyed the concept of killing things. So they appear in the spirit world like her, she gives him his drink. And this is something like we see later on with death wanting Mr. simnel to kill the size, which is the sharpest one imaginable, so it can be used by death. That was probably the best thing to come from that like that idea.

Right. I think for me, the problem with one man bucket is that there's such a fetishization of Native American indigenous, spiritual ism in the US, especially, like this idea that like, oh, like, we need a spirit guide, or we're going to go on a spirit journey, or we need a spirit animal. And all of those are actually like, really important ideas in indigenous cultures and religion. This just feels like more of that CO opting, basically. And I know it's supposed to be funny, because he's not actually like, he's not actually that way. Right? Like, he's, he's supposed to be like, an encore Porky, and just like the rest of them. But it just, it still feels really icky. It feels like this feels like you're trying to it's like anytime they make a indigenous character and a television show a hunter. Is that what you think indigenous people are? You know what I mean? Like it, they can do more than just that. Right? So to me, it just felt a little weird. Yeah. And the name as well seems to be this. Not perversion. But definitely, I don't know, you know, of American Native tribes, like First Nation names, you know, like chief Standing Bear and stuff. And he says it's because his mother when it's a tradition in their tribe, that when she looks out of the tent, the first thing she sees is the name of the child. And so it's one man throwing a bucket of water over to dogs. And there's the joke about how his brother, his twin brother, it windowpanes is like his two dogs fighting. And he's like, Oh, no, he would have given his right arm for it to be two dogs fighting. So it's, it's supposed to be like this funny, dirty joke. And it's kind of funny, but not really that funny. Like, is it really worth it to go through all of this stuff to get to that joke? No. I know, you're not the biggest fan of romance in your fiction. But there is a little romance here with lupine and lewd Mila. I'm gonna be honest, I like that. I don't know. It's it. Because it seems like especially lupine, because he's a part of the freshstart Club. And he's this, you know, like, he's this outcast, both from humanity and from wolves, because he's a reverse werewolf. And then also, like Ludmilla is constantly told to hide away by her mother, despite the fact that it's like been two days since the full moon and stuff. What really sold it for me at the end was, yeah, it's a conversation he has with one man bucket. Are you there one man bucket, he said softly. How did you know? You're generally around? You've caused some real trouble there. You know what's going to happen next? Full Moon. Yes, I do. And I think somehow that they do too. But he'll become a wolf man. Yes, it should become a wolf woman. All right, but what kind of relationship can people have one weekend for? Maybe at least as good a chance of happiness as most people get? Life isn't perfect woman bucket. You know, where it's like they're making the best of it. And they say, like, slightly later on than in the distance. He sees, you know, to wolf like shapes. You like on a hilltop in the distance? You know? So like, they're making it work. You know, and it's not, it's never like put in my face, which is good cuz I don't have to deal with it. This reminded me a lot of the ending of guards guards with Errol and the dragon, like the idea of like, they they're going to make it work, right? Like, what kind of life can they have? Well, the best life that you can have. Because lupine tells us that he's so lonely, because nobody understands him, because he's a wolf most of the time, except for that one night a year where he's a wolf man. But he's not like the other wolves because he says he feels and he knows, it's almost like esque, right? How she would have become an eagle that remembered being human, or that dreams sometimes about being human. When he's a wolf. He says he feels and he knows he can know what the feeling is that he's having. He doesn't just feel it. And so they talk about that later that lewd, Mila is the only other person that both feels and knows. And so like the idea of finding that one person that understands you, and then like you said, also just making it work, right, despite perhaps the barriers between you and that person, although it does give a whole new meaning to the relationship between a girl and her dog, right? Because he's like, gonna live with them as like her dog. Yeah. So one last thing before we move to the other thread, which is the death thread. We also get introduced to moto the university guard. I

love moto. He's the guy. He's the gardener of the unseen university. But he's great because he's just not FaZe like Windell shows up in the garden. And then he says, like, oh, evening, Mr. Coons, I urge you were dead. And it's like, yeah, well, it doesn't seem to have stuck, does it? And he's like, all right. Yep. Carry on. Yeah, I think he's the, he's my favorite, minor character that we've been introduced to this book, because I don't want to say favorite character, like new character, because that's, you know, like, I really like Windell. But he's definitely like, a minor character that I really liked, that we were introduced to for the first time he was he was never mentioned before, was he

Tessa  57:41  
know he is new to this? He will be in small portions of other books. Again, he's a fixture of the ANC University just like the lecture in recent runes and the dean and the bursar are. There's a lot in this book, and we're going to talk about this as we this is probably a good transition actually into the death arc. There's a lot in this book about people who care about their jobs. And Mojo cares about his job like that's the thing that's most important to him is like keeping the university grounds looking good. He's very proud of his compost piles, right, which at one point becomes 70 and tried to attack him and even a university that is known for like, all of this magical destruction. He takes a lot of pride in keeping up the appearances of it, and I can appreciate that like he does not care about the magical shenanigans of the wizards. He doesn't care about the buildup of lifeforce, he is there for His purpose, right, which is the grounds of the university. Yeah, is a great transition to talking about deaths character arc in Reaper man. We are introduced to a new set of antagonists of the Discworld. These are going to become deaths, nemeses, I was waiting for them to be introduced. What do you think about the auditors?

Nigel  58:58  
Oh, I love them. I love any kind of like, extra reality, like forces. So like this combines a lot it's like, is to do it, like the cosmology and how shit works, which I like to do it like extra reality beings. And specifically, like the concept of auditors, I think is fascinating. Like, I really, I really liked the TVA in Loki, which is weird, because I don't like bureaucracy. And also, I don't like when people assume they have the right. That's the thing that really, really bugs me in narratives. And I understand that as part of the narrative, but you know, like, where it's like, oh, we have to do this. Why oh, cuz like, you know, that's what we do. And you don't really get a say in your own autonomy that pisses me off like by white rice. But anyway, I like the TVA because of their auditor pneus. I'm also just like, I'm a sucker for editing choices in typography that show like The demonstrate things like the way they talk As an extension of how death talks in all capitals, or how one man book it as a spirit talks, like when there's no quotations or punctuation, and it's all on like lowercase, italics and stuff. I really like those decisions. And as well like how the big Azrael talks of one as Raul death of the universe, how he just talks in a massive, massive block capitals that take up like a third of the page, I really liked that reminded me as well of the sky father, in Sandersons, Stormlight Archives, I love these guys, they're great. Give me more of them,

Tessa  1:00:38  
yet, well, you're going to get more of them, because they are the auditors is like a very good way of describing them. They are these beings that exist outside of the universe, that seek to quantify it, they are the bureaucracy of the universe. And they think that all of these things like personality and humanity are just too messy, right, it causes too many problems in their numbering system. And so that's why they petition as real to fire death in this book, because they think that death has become too involved in entangled with humanity. And so we get both them and we get as real who, as you mentioned, is the death right? He is the death from which all deaths come from, as real, of course, is a reference to the angel of death in Islamic and some Judeo traditions of angelic beings. We also have to see him in good omens. Right, because that's death in good omens introduces himself as as real and has wings. So there is that sort of connection there as well. I also love when Miss Flint worth when she finally understands when death says like, that the auditors like the the IRS of the universe, and she's like, Oh, they're the revenue Why didn't you say? And there's this like, whole thing where she's just like, yeah, she's got like, this distrust of like the bureaucracy as well, right? That small town farmer distrust of anyone who tries to come in and like, tell us how things should be. And so that's, that's also sort of an attitude with the auditors. They fire death. So death, leaves his home, he's given a small lifetime or to live out the rest of his life, right? Because the implication is, is that the new death whenever the new test takes form, is going to kill him first. He tickets to the keeping key, right? Because he's been good at his job. So it's like that retirement gift where they are like, we don't need you anymore. But here's the watch like you for all these years of service. You just get this like, perfunctory gift although Binky is great, so I'm glad that he got to keep him I read

Nigel  1:02:52  
it less is like a gift. A more is like a nearly a threat, you know where it's like we're taking your job be glad we're not taking the horse as well. Although I'd like to see anybody actually tried to ride Pinkie, who isn't death, or someone related to death? Yeah. So it might have also just been that they knew they couldn't control Pinky. Yeah, I think thank you, but it just kicked them upside the head or something. Yeah, I agree. So def goes and finds a job being like a field hand with Miss flit worth. I liked that she was no nonsense. And also, this is there was a reference to create expectations there. They don't know. Did you get Yes, I did. Where she said the expectation was that she would just go mad and be in her wedding dress for the rest of her life. Yeah, like no, I'm not gonna do that. And still had the wedding breakfast. Yeah, because it's a you know, Bad Thing to Waste good food. I really liked that where she's just like, she's pure sense. I feel like, like Nanny Ogg and Granny. Weatherwax. We get on well, with misfet worth. Yes. I agree. She definitely seems like she could learn to practice head ology, because I don't think she ever really demonstrates it throughout the book. Yeah, I really, I really liked this. And I wish the whole book nearly was just this was just like death on the farm. Because we get some really amazing moments.

Tessa  1:04:26  
He of course, introduces himself to her as Bill door and he stops wearing his robe and starts wearing some overalls. So I'm going to send you a picture of my copy of the book. It'll definitely be on social media by the time this comes out. This is one of my favorite covers of the books that I've received so far. And it's of death as Bill door with a size and I love it so much. It's got like it's like an orange and yellow cover. He's built door but he's got like the the wheat around him, but there's also kind of a lifetime In the background, I just from a design point of view, I wanted to mention it because I loved it so much the cover design is by Brian Roberts. According to my book, I thought that this was a really interesting way of developing deaths character, because death as a character has always been interested in humanity, but he's never been forced to really live as a human. And so we get that hear from his interactions with Miss blidworth. And the surrounding townsfolk.

Nigel  1:05:28  
When he asks, Miss that worth, like, how do people deal with dreams? How do people, you know, because they're, you know, dreams that aren't pre cognition, and things like he were, he has a hangover, and he's like, Oh, this is misery. And now I understand why people want to die. Which I've never had a hangover, but Oh, you're so lucky. They they do make you want to die. I'm just going to tell you that right now for when you eventually get one that seems like like the popular conception of them where it's like, God, you just wish you were dead nearly. Or at least that's what it seems like in fiction. I've definitely said the words I'm never drinking again, during a hangover. So the moment where he saves the child, I loved all the interactions with death in the child where, you know, she calls him a Skellington. And why doesn't fall out was bones. Her mother is like, he's been a bit ill. And he's she's like, I think he's been as ill as he ever was going to be. Yeah. But also, like, the child is what, like six or seven, or something like that. But that phrase starts off with I should think that why is why does that child talk like that, like that? Talks?

Tessa  1:06:41  
Ah, the child is so funny. I also, this might be because I recently watched City of Angels, which is a Nicolas Cage romantic film from the 90s. There's a scene where Nick Cage who's playing an angel named Seth is trying to introduce himself to make Ryan's character. He's trying to think of a name. And he's like, or a last name for himself. And he's like, my name is Seth plait, because it's like the thing that he sees first. I don't know I think this that is it. Angels came out much later than Reaper man. But it had a very similar vibe to me as Bill door. I, there's so much about this. I like I really like that Miss Flint worth is clearly very lonely, even though she's very common sensical. And so she's trying to connect with death, in the only way that she really knows how, you know, she, like invites him in, and they they sit together, but death doesn't know how to do small talk. So they have like these very odd conversations, which are very funny, but also very, like, endearing at the same time, like their relationship is

Nigel  1:07:51  
a really good relationship. And like I wasn't, I don't think I was invested in it as much the first time I read it, I was more invested in what was going to happen to death. I actually really liked their conversations, even though they were both on completely different wavelengths, they were able to sort of connect with each other. Especially after I guess she finds out who he is. I don't know. I read like it was kind of like she was flirting with him. Because there was all those like stuff where like death is like, where it says the devil understands words as they are but not any of the kind of like, subtext on them. Or to, to steal a line from Patrick Kavanaugh, the wink and elbow language of delight. Yeah, I you know, I'm glad that it wasn't romantic. But also like I like at the end. I like first of all, the whole death being like, oh, what to people like, a flowers? Yeah, fuck it. I'll buy them all, you know, get the biggest diamond possible. And stuff. And then it's really tender. The moment when he takes her out for a dance and she realizes that she's dead since the moment he showed up at the door. Okay, you know, when you said I showed up, and it gave you quite a start? Yes, it gave you quite a stop. Hmm. The scene where they're dancing together is so good. Like, they're just like, they're having such a good time and they're connecting through this activity. To me, it felt like you said very much like the end of breakfast club where they're all dancing together. It felt it felt very much like that. I did also really like how the woman in the chocolate shop told him that diamonds were a girl's best friend. And he starts evaluating diamonds by friendliness. Yeah, and then the guy says to him, Well, we don't have a policy of buying them based on how affable the stones are. And then when he tells him about this stone that I have offered, he's like and to forestall your next question, I would personally go to bed with it. I also liked in the going back to the chocolate shop, the scene where the first box he looks at has the cat the picture of the kittens on it. And for a moment he thinks that some harm has befallen cats in order to make the chocolate because he's like maybe they taste like kitten and his voice takes on like a menacing tone. We don't get a lot of cat death content in this book. But I like that he's very, no cats were harmed in the making of these chocolates, right? Like he's very menacing when it comes to when it comes to cats. Hmm. So what did you think about death character art here? Because yes, finally I can talk about my revelation, tell us your revelation. So this is something that I noticed, because I've also read the back of soul music where every single one of deaths books seems to be.

The death is, is an absence from his normal duties, right? In more, it's because Mort takes over his job, briefly, and death goes and works in a restaurant, and learns about what happiness is in this one. He's laid off and learns compassion on a farm. And in solo music, he seems to be gone. And it's something we touched on as well, in Weird Sisters, about people taking on aspects of death. But this whole thing is like the death, like all of deaths, books are about death not being death. And can he exist outside of that? And then when I thought about every single one of the Discworld books, is that it's an examination of whether characters have to simply be what they are like, What is your place within the universe? And do you necessarily have to be it? You know, we talked about this with Adventure Time how, in the hyper fixations episode on Adventure Time, how Finn and mursaleen his characters are like, Well, I'm the hero slash, I'm a monster, respectively. Is this all that I can be? And it's like, you see this in all the deaths of the Discworld books in this one? Like, it's a really clear example, both death and the Fresh Start club are like, well, you know, we're dead, is that all that we are, and then like, even pyramids, Teppich, his whole thing is, you know, like, he's this king of a kingdom. And he doesn't want to be it, but it should be his by birthright. And like this whole concept that we've been touching on in all the episodes before this, of like, being a stranger in a familiar land, and when you get to the place where you think the things are going to be good, and it's not what you thought it would be, or after a certain while you go, well, it's not as good now, even rinse when like, in much as we were kind of iffy on color of magic color of magic is this lampoon of sword and sorcery, classic tales. And it's something that runs through and carries on throughout, like Rincewind is meant to be the chosen one. But he doesn't want to be the chosen one. The universe wants him to be, but he doesn't like he. And he's failed to be a wizard. And he's straight like that. That's why he clings on to his hat because he's done his time as a wizard. But his hat is the only thing that demonstrably proves that he is what he wants to be. It's an external, demonstrating fact that he is a wizard. And so I think all of this world is just about the nature of identity. And can we be more than what's prescribed to us? Like, you know, by destiny, by nature at birth, whatever you want to call it? I don't know if that was a good revelation or not. Oh, I think it's a fantastic and I definitely agree with you death here is trying to figure out what kind of death that he ought to be. Yeah, like the, like the scene in sorcery where Rincewind shows what type of wizard he is with the distinction. He's not the killing kind.

Tessa  1:13:46  
Right, exactly. And so death often in more of an other books that we've read often says like, there's no justice, there's only me this idea that like he has to exist, right. And he's the, the ultimate sort of end of everything. This book with both the Morris Dance references at the beginning and the end where they talk about the one village and the RAM talks that actually dances the Morris Dance correctly, because they dance both dances, right? They dance, the one in May, which is supposed to celebrate the life force coming back. And they dance the one in the fall when the lifeforce starts to drain away, right, and you get winter. And the idea is you have to dance them both right or else why dance either you have to have balance, you can't have too much life force sitting around or else things get out of whack and things go badly. That's not a new lesson necessarily, right? That's something that we've talked about before you have to have death in order to have life. But what this book seems to be telling us is you also have to care about your job. Death has to care about humanity and the people that he takes and the way that it works and his role in all of that. He asked at one point like what is the harvest think of that like what hope does the harvest have? If it's not us? And yeah, so I thought that that was very interesting because it connects also like, what what with what I was saying earlier about Moto, like this idea of like somebody has to care about this job. And death is like, Well, I do I do care about these people. And I do care about humanity and the balance of everything.

Nigel  1:15:24  
Yeah. And it's like, I think his saving of the little girl is key to this. And like, I didn't expect him to, but it was definitely a cold moment where death tries to be the death that they want, that the arbiters want them to be where he he says, you know, like, what care have i that this like, you know, we all have a time to die, and this is this girl's time to die. And it's then the misfit worth is just like, Well, if that's your attitude, go I don't like I don't want to be with you slap Sam. Yeah, she slaps him, and it's harder. He's harder than she thought possible. But like she, she takes us down there. And then that decides that no, he makes the distinction that yeah, he's death. But he's not the killing kind of death. He's not a drama death. And it's really interesting because it rhymes a lot with other like stuff from fantasy series. Like in the Wheel of Time. There's this chapter in the last book called those who fight where it's talking about all the struggles that people have gone through. They say that well, you can't beat us because we choose to you know, you can never really beat the hope of humanity because we choose to believe in it basically, we choose not to give into darkness or in an oath Bringer by Brandon Sanderson the chapter, the spirit that would not break where Dalinar says we you can have, you can have my memories but you can't have my pain, or Shakespeare, you may my glory on my state depose but not my griefs yet still on my king of those are even Doctor Who were the doctor says he's a living memory to genocide. And what he's going to do it with all the pain as he holds it in his hand and says that no one else will get hurt on his watch. Of course, we get that contrast it with the new death, right? Who shows up on a skeletal steed? And who is wearing a crown? What did you think about the contrast between the two deaths? I love that moment. As an extension of this. It's sorry, I'm getting a bit choked up on that. Because in the Bible, in the Book of Revelations, when the Four Horsemen come out it they talk about there comes a writer out on a pale horse, and he is death, and he's given dominion over the dead. That's another key distinction where death is able to pick up the scythe and strike down this new death because he's not a king. He's not a king, he's nearly equal to the people. You know, because what good is the harvest mama that the harvest all on? This specific quote, I thought was quite good for you. But Bill door was already rising and unfolding like the wrath of kings, he reached behind him growling, living on loans time and his hands closed around the harvest cipher, the crown of death saw it coming and raised its own weapon, but there was very possibly nothing in the world that would stop the warm blade as it snarled through the air, rage and vengeance giving it an edge beyond any definition of sharpness, it pass through the metal without slowing, no crown said Bill door looking directly into the smoke, no crown, only the harvest. And then where he confronts Israel at the end, where he says all things that are ours, but we must care for if we do not care, we do not exist. If we do not exist, then there is nothing but blind oblivion and even Oblivion must end someday, Lord, will you grant me just a little time for the proper balance of things to return what was given for the sake of prisoners in the flight of birds? Lord, what can the harvest hope for if not for the care of the Reaper man,

Tessa  1:19:02  
there's this idea that by keeping balance, you are actually caring for the harvest, but you can't have somebody who's not going to care in charge of that balance. And I liked like you said, the typography there's a lot with that in this book, because the new death instead of the small capitals has the italics. And the new death also refers to themselves as we instead of in the first person, which is more like the auditor's Right. Like this is the auditor's version of death. The one that yeah, have a personality, one that doesn't have investment in his job

Nigel  1:19:41  
as well. Death says to misfet Worth It hasn't become a he Yes, right. And then as Israel at the end says, I remember when all of this will happen again. So there is some interesting things with pronouns like this idea of like, Does death need to be a person finality in order to care about the balance and the the lives that it is taking, or he is taking. It's something that ties them to humanity, right? Because the auditors get killed for the even the briefest use of like personality, right? They get replaced immediately with like a different auditor. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting too, because there's that scene in the middle of the book where Miss Bloodworth has him kill a chicken. He hates it. He feels like a murderer. Because death doesn't kill people. He takes life but he doesn't actually killed the he's not the cause of the person's death. Yeah, it's the difference between theft and stealing by finding,

Tessa  1:20:43  
because I think it would have been really easy to have this story, and then have it be like, oh, and death learned a valuable lesson and he was more human. And that was great. But death isn't more human. He just perhaps understands it a little bit better. There's this great moment near the end, where he's thinking about being Bill door because he thinks about Bill door and death as two different people. And he says Bill door was dead, or at least had ceased his brief existence. But what was it someone's actual life was only the core of their real existence. Bill door had gone but he had left echoes, the memory of Bill door was owed something. Death, it always wondered why people put flowers on graves, it made no sense to him. The dead had gone beyond the scent of roses after all. But now, it wasn't that he felt he understood. But at least he felt that there was something they're capable of understanding. And for me, that tells me more about death, his character arc, it's not that he became more human. It's that he respects humanity more, he understands that there are things that humanity does that make them important and make them vital that he doesn't necessarily understand but he respects it and admires it. It's a development of empathy is what we're being told. It's not something that he understands, but he has empathy for it. Yeah, the new death has no empathy. He treats it all like it's a game death says,

Nigel  1:22:11  
there's a podcast I was listening to recently, I've gotten up to date on it. It's called Spirit Box radio. But there's one episode where there's a character called Oliver, who is this immortal being on the he's a florist and basically, like, he's talking about how he was suspended at the moment of death. And that this is what flowers are like, we're, you know, we take flowers, and we preserve their beauty. And at first, it seems kind of cynical, where it's like, what's this weird thing that humanity does, you know, where they've taken things, and we're prolonging its death, but then it ends up being, and ends up being this kind of like, hopeful thing, where, but yeah, it basically becomes like, well, we give flowers and it's of comfort. Because, like when we do that we are suspending a person's beauty in the moment of death, you know, yeah, like, it's this human thing where we try and preserve our memory, or the person themselves at the moment of death for as long as possible and keep their beauty there. I love the idea of developing empathy for something that you don't understand, but you don't have to understand it either. We have like this insistence, sometimes that we have to understand something in order to care about it. Empathy is a learned thing. We have to talk about a very

Unknown Speaker  1:23:35  
important character that makes its debut in this book,

Nigel  1:23:41  
The Death of rats. So when death is off work when he's when he's working as a fuel, and while he's Bill door, the different personifications of different kinds of death arise briefly, he absorbs most of them by the end of the book, except for the death of rats who clings to life because he, or whatever passes for life or the death of rats, because he wants to have an existence outside of death and then convinces death that he deserves an existence outside of death. I love the death of rats. I'm a sucker for titles. So things like death of rats, death of trees, death of mayflies. I like that. And then the fact but also it's interesting that like, these are aspects of death, but death is just an aspect of Israel, death of universes. And the universe clock. It you know, all of their clocks are aspects of the universe clock, where the clocks tell what time it is. The Universe clock tells time What time is. I think it's an interesting relationship between those and between the different forms of death, but also the death of rats is so cute. And the fact that also Well, no, there's also there's two extra forms of death. Because the death of fleas is still I forgot

Tessa  1:25:02  
about the death of fleas. So yeah, they got the death of rats, the death of fleas. And we end of course, with the death of rats arguing with death about whether he should write a cat or a terrier. Hmm. Which I thought was funny. There's also a callback to mort. Because when death first meets the death of rats, he says, I bet you could murder a piece of cheese right now, which is a call back to the I could just murder a curry from mort. The death of rats is also part of one of we've talked about this before, but one of my favorite tropes, which is a character that speaks a language or symbology that is not English, but people understand what they're talking about. So the death of rat says one word in all caps squeak. But people know what he's saying. Yeah, like the librarian, like the librarian, or Yeah, any number of characters. It's one of my favorite things. I love the conversations that we see with the death of rats in future books. He's just like squeak and everyone knows, everyone knows what he's saying.

Nigel  1:26:00  
I'm excited to see the auditors and excited to see the death of rats. We're moving more towards what I think of as like the golden age of the Discworld. Oh, no, that implies that there's a Silver and Bronze Age if we're going by comics. I don't know if I go that far. I'm just saying like when I think of the Discworld, I think of like a specific version of this universe and the death of rats is definitely in it. So so you get that I also really loved the references. Yeah, when they're talking about folk dances and when they say the survivors went on to Polka Masuka Foxtrot turkey trot and trot a variety of other beasts and birds. And then to those dances where people form an arch and other people dance down it, which are incidentally generally based on folk memories of executions, and other dances where people form a circle which are generally based on folk memories of plagues. I like that these are dances about death because we get the dual Morris Dance reference, but I like the reminder that a lot of dances are actually based on like her rific mass casualties. Yeah, there's some a dancer we do as part of the Kaylee which is an Irish like dancing festival. Sometimes it's on its own. Sometimes it says part of a flower or a fashio or something. Along those lines depending on what's being run them I have a Kaylee, which is like a big Dancehall where we do not Irish dancing, but like, I don't know really what you call it. And I don't know whether this is a thing exclusively to Irish or to Ireland. But there's one where I'm pretty sure we make an article the dances like the siege of Ns. Yeah, I think people often forget that dances are based on things from like folk or cultural memory. Yeah, but also like a ring a ring of roses. Yeah, it's the Black Death. Exactly. The dances are often associated with death. And we don't think about that, because we generally are like, oh, yeah, like people dance to bring life you know, in May. But there's the other dances as well that you have to dance to. Or you can't dance either in relation to dancing in relation to dancing that specifically says yeah, I take it you do dance Mr. Bill door famed for it, Miss flit worth. And it's like, that's not explicitly a reference to anything, I think save just the phrase dancing with death. Yeah, that's what I read it as. Yeah, um, because like where he tries to entreaty with the new death as well where he says about games. I could teach you a game like the concept of dancing with death playing a game with death, like the idea of playing chess with death, as in the the seventh seal or there's a Magnus statement, where the narrator plays like something different with death. Pharaoh, yeah, Pharaoh, which is a 17th century gambling game using cards and like, weird hexagonal pieces and stuff. Yeah. The Death and taxes because I think it's Benjamin Franklin, who originated the phrase, nothing is certain but death and taxes. And there's a scene where Flint worth says something about like, are you so you're not associated with taxes? And he says no, definitely not taxes. So there's there's that like, Death and Taxes situation? Yeah, doesn't taxes is also a great game. Really? I didn't know that was a game. Yeah, it's an indie game that came out recently and isn't like death in tech. No. There's a book or something missing there? I'm sure there is. I mean, it's such a common phrase. Yeah, death and taxes. I don't know. There's a whole bunch of them now. So I don't even know what one I was thinking of. Alright, so I don't have death sightings for this book, because this is a death book. So that seems like it would be a little excessive. Although we do get a reference to life as a capital L we do And I think is it Miss blidworth? Who says that she imagines life is like electricity and trousers? Yeah. Do we ever meet life? I

don't think so. I don't think life as a anthropomorphic concept crops up I could be wrong though. As you mentioned, there are zero references to sort which I'm adding to our end of episode list. The first footnote is on page nine, it's where the trees the the counting pine trees are talking to one another. When the tree vanishes, they live so long that just ages go by so fast that when a tree gets chopped down, they don't even really notice who chopped down until like a couple of years later. And so it happens lads said one of them carefully has been taken to a better place footnote. In this case, three better places, the front gates of numbers 31 seven and 34 Elm Street on more pork. So that's like obviously the reference to the fact that they have like their numbers on the trees and so they're actually hunted by humans are cut down by humans because they make really good address plates. Also out in the street. Nightmare on Elm Street. Yeah, exactly. And I think Elm Street is also referenced several times in more pork. It's a address that often gets used. What was your favorite footnote? I'm torn between two um, one has to do with this larger theme, which seems to be existing across Discworld books that there is an opposite to everything. You know, like in pyramids, we have the wine which is aged backwards. And then we have in sorcery, we have the concept of nerd, which is getting drunk backwards. And then this one is to do with anti pasta, anti pasta. Yeah, anti pasta, which anti pasta is like part of a meal, which is what it actually is. But it's another yet another one of the Discworld just taking things extremely literally. But that yeah, so then we have this one. Although not, this is a slightly different one, but it's related to the concept of anti pasta. Although not comment on the Discworld. There are indeed such things as anti crimes in accordance with the fundamental law that everything in the Multiverse has an opposite. They are obviously rare. merely giving someone something is not the opposite of robbery to be an anti crime. It has to be done in such a way as to cause outrage and or humiliation to the victim. So there is breaking and decorating, preferring was embarrassment as in most retirement presentations, and white mailing, as in threatening to reveal to his enemies a mobster secret donations for example, to charity, anti crimes have never really caught on. One is just it was this dynamic interplay of power blocks to make ONC more pork such an interesting, stimulating and above all bloody dangerous place in which to live footnote. Many songs have been written about the bustling metropolis the most famous of course, being more pork and more pork. So good. They named it ONC more pork but others have included carry me away from old ONC more pork. Going back to Uncle more pork and the old favorite uncle more pork melody.

Tessa  1:33:05  
Those are quite excellent. As mentioned, I didn't really like the mall stuff. But I did really appreciate the footnote when everything's been wrapped up. And it's like when no one was looking the last surviving trolley on the Discworld rattled off sadly into the oblivion of the night lost and alone footnote. It is generally thought on those worlds where the mall life form has seated that people take the wire baskets away and leave them in strange and isolated places so that squads of young men have to be employed to gather them together and we'll come back. This is exactly the opposite of the truth. In reality, the men are hunters stalking they're rattling prey across the landscape, trapping them breaking their spirit taming them and hurting them to a life of slavery. Possibly, that to me is like one of the most horrific pro morphic personifications of like a very mundane object that I have ever heard like, because we always see like shopping carts like abandoned and weird places and then of course, like people are paid like less than minimum wage to to go and collect them and put them back in into their places in the store and like it just I don't know how he managed to make that into a horrifying and sad moment with that footnote but he did

Nigel  1:34:17  
as someone who's worked a job in retail where there's like a big car parked outside of the shop and like people do just like abandon them all over the carpark because they brought the trolleys out to their cars and whatever that is something that I have experienced is having to like go to the back ends of this massive carpark and just bring all the trolleys back and herd them into what's essentially a pen. Yeah, exactly. Like if you actually think about the trolleys as being like livestock it becomes incredibly horrifying. What was the thing that made you laugh out loud? I don't know in general, maybe the just the banter between the senior faculty of the unseen university like the moment where they're like, Well, why hasn't the plate why hasn't the mall been blown up? Okay, I thought we'd like to get out of it that I thought was really fun. Just this other one where it's like we all seed you said the dean, the trolley maintained a low profile. It can't be thinking so the lecture in recent rooms there's no room for a brain who says it's thinking so they are Chancellor all it does is move who needs brains for that problems move? He ran his fingers over the network. Actually prawns are quite until the senior wrangler began Shut up said read Kali. Hmm. Is this made though

Tessa  1:35:25  
mine was actually the very same thing in terms of like the the banter between the senior faculty. So the one I had marked was the one where they're talking about the undead and vampires vs. Zombies. You can't be born to be undead, the senior wrangler pointed out I mean, it's traditional. The arched Chancellor snapped. There were some very respectable vampires where I grew up. They've been in their family for centuries. Yes, but they drink bloods of the senior Wrangler. That doesn't sound very respectable to me. I read where they don't actually need the actual blood, said the Dean anxious to assist. They just need something that's in the blood. Hemo goblins. I think it's called the other wizards looked at him. The dean shrugged. Search me he said, hemo goblins. That's what it said. It's all to do with people having iron in their blood. I'm damn sure I've got no iron goblins in my blood. So the senior Wrangler? I don't know why that made me laugh so hard. Like somebody basically just being like, No, I don't have iron goblins in my blood. Like, I don't understand it. And it has nothing to do with me. What's something that made you think?

Nigel  1:36:29  
I think if I were to pick a moment, it may be death, interceding on humanity's part. But also, we'd never really, we didn't really get a chance to touch on this. Like the whole thing about the prisoners in towers and the flight of birds. I'm pretty sure it's just a reference to the Birdman of Alcatraz, and I'm not entirely sure why they went with that. Like as the like the point, but I'm like, yeah. Oh, that's cool. Again, understanding like that there's something there that empathy. Yeah, I really liked the scene. It's another death scene where he's talking with Miss flit worth. And she says, Well, that's wrong. And he says, I don't think there is right or wrong, just places to stand. From the point of view of someone who doesn't pay taxes and does smuggling to keep their family alive. Like that's the most right thing is to keep their family alive. But from the point of view of perhaps the revenue or the tax collectors, that's wrong. And so like this idea of like, there's no right or wrong, just places to stand like you have to make the best decision based on what information you have and what you think is right at the time. Yeah. So there's that and then also, at the end of so Lemony Snicket wrote a prequel series to a series of unfortunate events, called all the wrong questions about a young Lemony Snicket within the world of a series of unfortunate events. And I won't spoil what happens at the end, with something bad has happened, like very bad. One of the characters has done something awful. And that's just how it ends. And then, as they're walking away the character muses, he can never be sure at that moment whether you're wrong or right, but you have to be certain, right? You have to find that place to stand. And from that perspective, morality is perhaps a lot more flexible than humans would think that it is. Next episode, Discworld is going to Golden Age Hollywood in 1990s Moving Pictures, the first novel of the industrial revolutions series. Where can people find you online and on their headphones? Nigel can find me online on Twitter at spicy Nigel where, you know, I just be tweeting things I'd be coming up with tweets, I'd be tweeting. And then you can find my podcasts, archive admirers, which is a bi weekly relisten slash discussion of the Magnus archives by roasty. Quill on Twitter at admirers archives. And then everywhere podcasts are on hyper fixations, a podcast where we invite a different guest on every week to talk about something they're passionate about, on Twitter at hyper fixations P or on Instagram hyper vexations pod, and then also all the pod catchers. We've never really talked about this all that much, but I feel like nanny OGS book club is sort of a spin off of both monkey off my backlog and hyper fixations, it's like the child between the two. Because this originally started it's a monkey off my back. Yeah, it's a monkey off your backlog, but also I was on hyper fixations to talk about my fixation with Terry Pratchett and that's what led us to doing this so yeah, yeah, I would recommend both podcasts for sure hyper fixations, and then of course my other podcasts, monkey off my backlog. At monkey backlog on Twitter and wherever you want to listen to your podcast. It's a podcast about pop culture productivity, where we watch films read Books, play video games, listen to music, whatever you can think of that has been on our lists forever. So just like Terry Pratchett's been on Nigel's list forever. You can also find me on Twitter at suela. Tessa Swehla is spelled SW eh LA. You can find this podcast on Twitter at nannies bookclub and on Instagram at nanny Augs book club. Please rate review and subscribe on iTunes and Spotify. You can review us on Spotify now. Please do so. Please follow us on Stitcher, Amazon podcast, Google podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Alright, read us out Nigel.

Albert. Yes, Master. Have you not got something to do? Some little job? I don't think so. Albert, away from here is what I mean. Ah, what you mean is you want to be alone, said Albert. I am always alone. But just now I want to be alone by myself. I'll just go and do some little jabs back at the house then said Albert, you do that? Death stood alone watching the wheat dance in the wind. Of course it was only a metaphor. People were more than corn they world through tiny crowded lives driven literally by clockwork filling their days from edge to edge with the sheer effort of living. And all lives are exactly the same length, even the very long and very short ones. From the point of view of eternity anyway. Somewhere the tiny voice of Bill door said from the point of view of the owner, longer ones are best. Death look down. A small finger was standing by his feet. He reached down and picked it up held it up to an investigative eye socket. I knew I'd missed someone. The death of rats nodded. death shook his head. death shook his head. No, I can't let you remain. He said. It's not as though I'm running a franchise or something. Are you the only one left? The death of rats opened a tiny skeletal hand. The tiny death of fleas stood up looking embarrassed but hopeful. No, this shall not be I am implacable I am death alone. He looked at the death of rats. He remembered as Ray Allen his tower of loneliness alone. The death of rats look back at him. Picture a tall dark figure surrounded by cornfields. No, you can't write a cat who ever heard of the death of rats writing a cat. The death of rats would ride some kind of dog. Picture more fields, a great horizon spanning network with fields rolling in gentle waves. Don't ask me I don't know. Some kind of terrier maybe fields a corn alive whispering in the breeze. Rice and the death of fleas can write it to the way you kill two birds with one stone awaiting the clockwork of the seasons. Metaphorically. And at the end of all stories as well who knew the secret sauce? I remember what all this will be again. The End

Transcribed by https://otter.ai