Tessa  0:24  
Welcome to nanny ox book club a Discworld podcast. Join us as we read through all 41 of the fantastical and outrageous Discworld novels. I'm Tessa. And I'm Nigel. This is episode eight sorcery. sorcery is the fifth book in the Discworld series and the third in the unseen University series published in 1988. It is the last book we are reading from the 80s and returns us back to the sword and sorcery, literally of the unseen University series that begins to dig into the characterization of Rincewind and pivots towards a broader view of the Discworld and magic. On the Discworld, it is common knowledge that the eighth son of an eighth son is a wizard, but the eighth son of an eighth son of an eighth son is a sorcerer, a wizard squared, a being too powerful to be held by reality. But one wizard deliberately has an eighth son out of vengeance, prophesying that he will destroy the world. Eight years later, the sorcerer coin arrives at the unseen university on the eve of the confirmation of a new Arch Chancellor, claiming the university and the disk for his own. But his magic is too powerful, bringing out the worst in the wizards and attracting the attention of beings of the dungeon dimensions. And the only one who can stop him is the failed wizard, rinse wind. You messaged me like a week ago saying I have so many thoughts about this book, which is great, because I also have so many thoughts about this book. But what was your first impression? As you read through this

Nigel  1:57  
joke's on you, that was yesterday? Feels like a week ago? Yeah, yesterday at 916 My time. Yeah. Or maybe I also did. I mean, I probably did also send send it to you a week ago as well.

Tessa  2:13  
I am writing a dissertation right now Time flows a bit differently when you're doing that.

Nigel  2:19  
I am also writing a dissertation. What's your dissertation?

Tessa  2:22  
Science fiction and medical humanities?

Nigel  2:26  
Oh, nice mindset, the use of fake documentary evidence in horror fiction,

Tessa  2:30  
that is a great subject for a dissertation.

Nigel  2:33  
It means I get to talk about it for a whole chapter about all of the podcasts I'm friends with, because that's kind of what they do. And I wanted to do that on its own just talking about podcasts. And they were like, I don't think you could talk about just podcasts. I don't think that's technically literature in the eyes of the department. I'm like, Well, can you chapter and they're like, Yeah, sure. I have a whole chapter on House of Leaves. I love how some of these one of my favorite books ever. You know, other book I really like what book sorcery. See that segue?

Tessa  3:04  
That was a wonderful transition. And I was very curious on whether you would like this book or not. So you liked it?

Nigel  3:11  
Yeah, at the end of it. I think I like it. Yeah. Like there were points throughout it where I was kind of like back and it's definitely the most back and forth. I've been while reading a Discworld book so far. Because like there's some that I like straight away like Weird Sisters like Morse like Guards, guards. And then there's some that I'm like, straight out I know are boring, like pyramids, and then there's ones that I don't particularly like, like equal rights. This one where I was like, Okay, I don't know where this is going. And I don't know whether I like where it's going. But yeah, at the end of it, I think overall I quite enjoyed that. It's definitely my favorite Rin swim book.

Tessa  3:54  
Well that actually answers a question I had because I was gonna ask you to rank it in comparison with the color of magic and light fantastic.

Nigel  4:02  
So let's see so this one is tough as Renson one so far so it would be a sorcery then light fantastic then color of magic. As we read more Renson books the gap between definitely light Funtastic and color of magic will open up more my thoughts on life fantastic overall are generally getting more positive like I liked it. I think I gave it four stars on Goodreads but yeah, I think now looking back I'm like, I think I like that more than I initially thought.

Tessa  4:36  
So the other thing too is and you've mentioned this a couple of times is the color of magic in the light fantastic really read as one story like the it's really one narrative between those two books. So sorcery almost reads more like a sequel than it does like the third book of a series. Yeah, because we're actually picking up with like what happens next to rinse wind after he saves the universe for being ripped apart by Treiman, and the eight great spells of the octavo. Let's just dive right in. And there's a lot of different ways we can approach this. So I'm just going to start with the main thread of this book, which is the sorcerer sorcery, eight son of an eighth son of an eighth son, I have a very memorable experience of reading the first part of this book where we get introduced to explore the red, who is sitting on a beach with his child after the death of his wife. And he's cursing wizardry in general and vowing vengeance on them. And he's having this whole conversation with death. And talking about how his son is going to show them and he's going to be a source for death is trying to follow the conversation but not really doing a great job because death is much more literal than if slur is as a character. So we get this wonderful line where IPs are asks what is life what is worth living for, and life and death says cats cats are nice. So what do you think explore the read the whole thread of sorcerers and sorcery in this book,

Nigel  6:07  
I quite liked it. One thing I noticed. Well, the like I've kind of noticed before, but now the way that Pratchett describes death sometimes where it's like, you know, he turned at a certain silence behind him and looked up through to tear red eyes and a tall hooded figure in a black row. It's lower the red, it said, The voice was hollow as a cave as dense as a neutron star. And it's like, it's kind of like what we talked about in I don't know, was it the pyramids episode, where, you know, he's talking about things that people on the disk have, would have no knowledge of. And it's like, it's really weird that he always talks about these like, really kind of thermo nuclear physics, he kind of ways but then also like, I find out in between those, the last Discworld book we read, And now that Terry Pratchett was a nuclear engineer. That was a job he had, yes, he was. So like, that explains it,

Tessa  7:05  
we get a couple of those in this book, like we get the reference to the occult agenda that the genie has, this shows all these like arcane secrets. And one of them is like the three secret stops on the London Underground. So we get that kind of like meta reference, we also get, again, with the genie, he's like on a cell phone at one point, it never actually says that he's on a cell phone. But that's clearly what's happening in the scene, but none of the other characters understand what's going on, because he can pop back and forth between realities. So the implication here is that the genie can go to our reality and perhaps belongs more to our reality than he does to the disc reality. But we also like you said, this narrative voice still has that meta voice and again, it's really like a winking at the audience. It's the narrator understanding that the audience will understand these things even though the characters won't.

Nigel  7:57  
So the way the genie is presented, and this is very much like Robin Williams is a genie from Aladdin. And then I was like, I wonder how long Aladdin was out before this. No turns out sorcery was published four years before Disney's Aladdin came out. So it really seems to like predict. Robin Williams is Genie.

Tessa  8:18  
It does. I

Nigel  8:19  
hadn't even thought about that. But you're definitely like it really feels like when he's first introduced, you know, where he's saying shit to a Latin like worse for the like, got worse for the Nile and a Latin goes, I wish for the Nile. He goes, No.

Tessa  8:32  
Yeah, it does kind of feel like that. Because the genie is like a very fast talking. He almost reminds me of like an LA, like publicist or something like, you know, oh, we should do lunch or let me pencil you in for next Tuesday, you know, kind of thing?

Nigel  8:45  
Yeah. He literally says Have your people call my people. That's a direct quote.

Tessa  8:51  
That is absolutely true. He's also not very helpful. In any sense of the word. No, but

Nigel  8:56  
see, with with this genie, I don't know how we've gotten so focused on the genie now. So like the conception of a genie other than like, the genie and Aladdin are like they're unhelpful in the sense that like they, either unintentionally or deliberately misinterpret your wishes. You know, where it's like, you want a raspberry crown, and instead of getting a pastry, you get a wasp. That's an example because they're named the same or whatever. But this Yeah, just like, is unhelpful because he's as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Tessa  9:32  
Although there is a little bit of what you just said, Because creosote asks for a drink and gets like flat warm water instead of alcohol, which is clearly what he meant to ask for. The other thing to bring us back to the sorcery angle of it is that we've been going through all these books and almost every single one of the books we've read so far has told us wizards don't get married. Wizards don't have sex. wizards are generally distrustful of women. And we finally get an answered as to why it's because of sorcery, you get this moment where it says, you know, there's all these rules about wizards and sex, especially with women. But none of the wizards really know why they just assume it has to do with like crafting their magic or something. But the real reason is, is that if wizards were allowed to go breeding all the time, there was a risk of sorcery. So there's this idea that like, the reason that no wizard can have sex is because they might accidentally do the whole eight son of an eight son of an eighth son, type of progeny. But here we get it for doing it on purpose.

Nigel  10:38  
Well, also, like I like this concept that they've introduced of the mage wars, because it's just like, This feels like a thing that they've just put in, you know what I mean? In the same way that they had to make like a whole Star Wars show or something because they had, I don't know, I've never seen Star Wars, but I've seen a screengrab of it on the internet where like, Luke asks Obi Wan Kenobi, oh, you fought in the Clone Wars, right? And then they made a whole series, like explaining what the clone wars were just the way they drop the mage wars and how it's destroyed. The whole disk feels like that almost where it's just like, oh, yeah, this is a thing. Don't ask me about it.

Tessa  11:14  
They brought up the mage wars before in the light, fantastic. But we don't really get a sense of what they looked like until we start to see them happen again, in this book, because the idea is that coin Who is this sorcerer, and he's only eight years old, which I actually think is very important to talk about him as a character. He is so powerful that his magic literally cannot be contained by reality, like it just, you know, pulls everything up, it disrupts everything, and he believes under the influence of his staff that is being haunted by his father IPS lore. That seems like a very complicated, but it's actually not very complicated in the book. He basically thinks that all like the wizards and sorcerers should rule the disk. And so it ends up creating this division within the magical community and the Ogmore pork wizards under the leadership of coin, start this major process all over again, which Rincewind immediately recognizes as soon as he sees it start he's like, Oh, no, this is happening again.

Nigel  12:15  
It kind of ties back into the thing from the light fantastic, where they're talking about Guldur Weatherwax and how Treiman is always trying to kill him and stuff, but it's like, on small Gods Eve, however, it was considered extremely bad for him to kill a brother wizard and wizards felt able to let their hair die without fear of being strangled with it. Yeah, like things like that, where it's like, wizards are just like one hair away from murdering one another at all times. But I thought it was really interesting. The I suppose we called them the new mage wars mage war two Electric Boogaloo.

Tessa  12:51  
Octarine Boogaloo?

Nigel  12:52  
Yeah. Octarine Boogaloo. Also, that raises the question, what exactly is a mage? Because we've had wizards and witches, obviously. And equal rights brought up the concept of a warlock as an image in between the magic and gender binaries, who are neither, you know, who are neither in the opinion of most practitioners on either side. But what is a mage because a mage isn't really a warlock, but like a mage just seems to be someone who uses magic. But then would that not make a mage also a witch? Technically,

Tessa  13:27  
maybe it's just men who use magic. Maybe we're going back to gender again.

Nigel  13:31  
Yeah, the M and Mage stands for men. I like that the whole like constructing a giant tower thing where it's like, wizards have to build a tower and it's like, oh, it goes back to the My point about the staff that ask carries around in equal rights, where it's like it's the most phallic thing imaginable. Like towers as well. Like these giant pointy towers are just a giant Fox symbol as is a giant pointy hat. Everything to do everything we popularly conceive of wizard seems to be tied to the idea of masculinity and having a penis,

Tessa  14:07  
although witches also were pointy hats, so we could get a little in the weeds there if we try to go too far down that

Nigel  14:14  
road. Yeah, no, but I'm not saying that they don't. But everything that we associate with a wizard is tied to Yeah, it's like all thumbs or fingers and all fingers or thumbs.

Tessa  14:25  
Well, and the staff is really important here too, because it's explores old staff, but because it floors, soul essence, whatever it is that death is still waiting for him to give up is tied to the staff. It has like a mind of its own right it's able to perform magic on its own. As well as being a channel for coin to perform his magic. I thought the whole like the deal with death thing was interesting where he's like, Well, you can come take me when my son throws the staff away. Which we all know that deals with death do not generate And well,

Nigel  15:01  
yeah, I think it was really interesting that concept of like, well, there needs to be some kind of like out for face for things to happen where it has to be something no matter how infinitesimal, the odds are, as long as there's like, a nonzero chance of it happening. Then the universe can still run, like that conversation with death, where he's like, Well, like things are inevitable, but sometimes they just don't happen. Yeah,

Tessa  15:29  
he's a sufficiently molecular. That's like, my favorite. The thing that he says it's sufficiently minut. Molecular.

Nigel  15:36  
Yeah, is that small enough, sufficiently molecular.

Tessa  15:39  
It says, Death was mildly annoyed. He sighed again, people were always trying this sort of thing. On the other hand, it was quite interesting to watch. And at least it was a bit more original than the usual symbolic chess game, which death always dreaded, because he could never remember how the night was supposed to move. And that of course, is a reference to the seven seal the 1957 where you have the Yeah, where you have the the boy playing chess with death. It's interesting. The ways in which staffs and sorcerers work in this and the way that magic it like too much power is, is bad for the wizards like they turn into terrible versions of themselves when they have access to this kind of power. The worst part is when the narrator is telling us about the first mage wars, the narrator says that was in fact the problem. All the wizards were pretty evenly matched, and in any case lived in high towers well protected with spells, which meant that the most magical weapons rebounded and landed on the common people who are trying to scratch an honest living from what was temporarily the soil and lead ordinary decent but rather short lives. The idea is, is that like the wizards, when they get too much power, they become terrible people who try to kill each other, but they're not even really the ones who suffer the most. It's the people around them the non magical people who have to deal with like the after effects of all these spells and we start to see that in places like on more pork and klatch and aquarium even although we don't get to see it as much,

Nigel  17:15  
yeah, there's a great line. Oh, it's from one of my favorite sections in the book. Find it now. So it's after the wizards come out into the marketplace in ancora pork, it's after the wizards just made the pie. It wants to taste the wizard, there's plenty more where that came from. Wherever it came from said addressee, he looked past the shiny pastry to the face of the wizard. And in the medical scheme of those eyes, he saw the world turning upside down. He turned away a broken man and set out for the nearest city gate. As if it wasn't bad enough that wizards were killing people he thought bitterly, they were taking away their livelihood as well.

Tessa  17:52  
It's bad when wizards do this to themselves, but it's even worse what happens to the world around them. Which is why sorcerers shouldn't exist

Nigel  18:01  
more of Terry Pratchett's like, thinly veiled class system criticisms, he there's more than one way to kill a person where like, yeah, you can go out and stab them or vaporize them or magic. But you can buy out their business and completely undercut their profits and means of putting food on the table. That's nearly worse because you, you know, if someone comes along and stabs you in the back, or go through rampage in the city and chops off your head, or curses you in a building or whatever, like, it's like that you're gone, you're dead. Whereas like, you're gonna have to go home day after day and look your family in the eye and say like, no, sorry, we're all just eating. Everyone's eating magic pies. Now, no one has time for my handmade ones go like, Well, what do we have to sell? Or give away to each of them? Like, you know, if you can't do that the end of starving and diet like it's a much crueler way to kill someone because it's like, like torture if you put on a rack or if you like, get strapped up and someone starts like cutting off tiny bits of you. I'm not here to defend torture, but like, it's personal, at least someone is taking like a specific interest in torturing you. Whereas like this kind of indirect torture where they're just gone. Like, I've completely sabotage your entire life and livelihood and you you know, it's gonna be nigh impossible for you to recover from this. Oh, well, you know, like and they just go on with their day if you're less than a passing thought to them.

Tessa  19:33  
Right. And that comes up several times in this book, this idea that for wizards wizards are the only people who matter there's this line where he's talking like you watch the wizards like killing the guards in klatch when rinse when asked what kind of wizard he is, he says the non killing kind. It was the way they looked at them as if they just didn't matter said Nigel's shaking his head. That was the worst bit like they're the only ones who exist now in their minds, right? Like the only people who matter are the magic people who can make pies out of thin air and do their spells and take over the world and fight. And the only enemies that matter are other people who can do that, like the guards and the people who are on the ground. They don't matter, right, their livelihood doesn't matter. them as people don't matter. And that's like the that's like the most evil part of this.

Nigel  20:25  
One of my favorite things is like, white men, moralizing on like killing us wrong. You know, as someone I recently watched The Magnificent Seven, the 1967. I want to say,

Unknown Speaker  20:41  
which is so good. It's okay. Yeah,

Nigel  20:44  
it's a good film, but it's also like boring as all hell in certain places. Like, like, it's a two and a half hour film or something. Right.

Tessa  20:54  
It's about the death of the Western. Yeah,

Nigel  20:57  
it is. But like, there's definitely a lot of the scenes where they're just training the villagers I feel like could have been condensed, that's a kind of bored me. But anyway, that whole thing or like the, the scene in Logan, where Charles is talking about the film of what's the film called again? Shane Shane. Yeah, I was gonna say, Eric, but no, that's a Discworld book. Yeah, where it's like, it's a terrible thing to live with a killer and where it runs and whole thing is, he might be a shit wizard. But he's generally like, the most notable wizard for a lot of his appearances so far. And a lot of this book, his whole thing has been well, he's the wizard who can't do any spells. But it's interesting in this moment that he chooses to find himself as well. I'm someone who wouldn't do that. Because like, that's just a parent.

Tessa  21:49  
He's the only one who knows what's happening is wrong. Like, as soon as he realizes that sorcery is back, he immediately is like, this is not good. This is going to bring back the mage wars, we are not going to survive this or even I think the most heartbreaking thing is at the end, when he asks, I think it's I don't think it's coin, he asks this stuff. I think it's another wizard, where he says, what will be left when this is all over? Like he is the only person who understands that what's happening is wrong, the rest of the wizards can't understand that or won't understand it.

Nigel  22:20  
You know, where everyone is fighting for this glorious as, oh, I can quote doctor who now give me one second. It's from Peter Capaldi. His speech in the Saigon inversion, where it's like, very much an anti war speech. And yeah, it's a bit preachy, I guess. But it's also like one of the most amazing speeches I've ever heard. So I won't point the doctor says, I win this war is over. When you have the homeland free from humanity. What do you think it's going to be like? Do you know? Have you thought about it? Have you given it any consideration? Because you're very close to getting what you want? What's it going to be? Like? Paint me a Picture? Are you going to live in house? Do you want people to go to work? What would be holidays? Oh, will it be music? Do you think people will be allowed to play violins? Who make the violence? Well? Oh, you don't actually know, do you? Because just like every other tantruming child in history, Bonnie, you don't actually know what you want. So let me ask you a question about this brave new world of yours, when you've killed all the bad guys. And it's all perfect and just unfair. When you have finally got it exactly the way you want it. What are you going to do with people like you, the troublemakers? How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one?

Tessa  23:29  
Like rinse when seems to be the only person who's like what you're giving up here is it's not worth what you're getting, even though he's not very powerful. Maybe it's because he's not very powerful that he can understand that. Whereas a lot of the rest of the wizards can't understand that. There's two things about the magic of sorcery versus wizardry. That's interesting. The first one is when coin asks Beltre, if he agrees with him, and spelter thinks to himself, the world had sorcery once and gave it up for wizardry. wizardry is magic for men, not Gods it is not for us. There was something wrong with it, and we have forgotten what it was. I liked wizardry it didn't upset the world it fitted it was right. A wizard was all I wanted to be. And then later Rincewind kind of echoes that when he's trying to explain that using too much magic is really dangerous to Nigel in the saref. Magic uses people said Rincewind hurriedly it affects you as much as you affect it sort of thing. You can't mess around with magical things without it affecting you. I just thought I'd better warn you like a wine bottles that creosote that drinks you back said rinse wind. I think that that is two really good places where they explain why sorcery is so dangerous versus wizardry which is powerful, but it has a lot more control and it fits more within that natural order.

Nigel  24:51  
wizardry is in the book like obviously we know head ology is kind of like the common sense, and the power comes from within you really Like, that's what affects the change. And wizardry is like really, really basic stuff. Do you need to like geometry? Yeah, geometry and really like, when you get down to it basics, fundamentals when I'm thinking I'm not basic, like just when you get down to it, you break things down into its most essential things. Whereas sorcery is just like, oh, who fucking cares anymore? You know, like, we were just tapping into the primal energy of Creation, you know, like just cause

Tessa  25:29  
right and the idea is is that you can't do that without consequences like there's you can't shift reality in that way without yeah either something from the outside trying to break in like the dungeon dimensions or it fundamentally changing you as a being

Nigel  25:45  
I want someone just really like disinterested in Sasa they just yelling at Coin being like, hey, fucker, you ever heard of the laws of thermodynamics? Way which is something Terry Pratchett would know about as a nuclear engineer.

Tessa  25:59  
Let's talk about rinse wind, because you already started to talk about him a bit. My personal feelings about this book, were kind of similar to yours in that for about the first third. I was like, oh, man, this has some really interesting stuff, but it's kind of boring. And then the middle third, I was like, Okay, this has some interesting stuff, but I don't really care about klatch. And then the last third is book I read in all one sitting, loved it. It's amazing. Like, I almost feel like there's one good idea in here and he just kind of had to like, take us on a journey through the first two thirds of the book before we could get to like this wonderful, wonderful sequence which starts with Rincewind coming back to Ogmore pork and finding the library burned from that point onwards in the book. I was just like riveted by rinse wind as a character and

Nigel  26:46  
definitely the first part of the book where he's just like talking to the arch Chancellor's hot. Oh, yeah. Also just the fact that like we're electing this new one really confirms the fact that yeah, we never see could angle again, rip cut angle by cut angle, and then very shortly afterwards, rip Wayzgoose, which is supposed to be his replacement, but it definitely felt like the same old rinse wind, where he's talking to the heart and being like, Well, no, I don't want to go because it's dangerous. That's not what I do. But then like, he really sort of comes into his own when he meets Nigel in klatch, where he feels like he has to be kind of a protector to Nigel who he's very much like, Cara. In Guards, guards.

Tessa  27:32  
He does kind of feel that way. I was gonna ask you also what you thought of Nigel the destroyer.

Nigel  27:37  
So this is a point that I made on episode 10. Yeah, 10 archive admirers. We're discussing the statement Vampire Killer, where it's very rare to see the name Nigel in fiction. It's always really weird that because Nigel is not the most common of names either. And it's a name that I picked for myself. So it's very weird seeing like what people present as Nigel in the Magnus archives the only character called Nigel is the brother of a guy called Trevor Herbert who turns into a badass and bit of a prickly Iran pieces young brother who gets just brutally murdered by a vampire it like yeah, I quite enjoyed it. I thought it was really funny. The fact that he's he's the owner of the world's most polite battle cry. Just excuse me.

Tessa  28:24  
Excuse me. Yeah, Nigel, the destroyer son of hair but the provision merchant he wears like the loincloth but also the bull in long underwear because his mother insisted. I also think that rinse when does give us like, I mean classic rents when Prince wind does not want to be the main character. We've talked about this before. He still doesn't want to be the main character in this book. So there's a lot of that where he's like complaining the whole time, even though he knows he's getting sucked into it. I love the description of him. Where it says many people who had got to no rinse wind had come to treat him as a sort of two legged miner's canary. And tended to assume that a friend's wind was still upright and not actually running than some hope remained. Like this idea that like he, he never wants to be there. He never wants to be part of it, but he keeps getting pulled into it but also he manages to survive it most of the time.

Nigel  29:17  
I think that's his power. It's survivorship they're much like the follow up boy song champion if I can make it through this I can make it to Ronnie thing. And then as these books go on his character seems to be are made it through this thing in the past, so I can make it through this thing now. Like especially the end at the end of the light, fantastic. It didn't feel nearly as noble when he decided to go up because it was to flower who charged towards trauma and when he was possessed and Renson might like, Oh, guess I better follow. In the end of this one. Like her insulin goes off on his own. He leaves behind the aid of the librarian, Lord veterinarian waffles. He recognizes the fact that he's the only one who could possibly take a stab against coin. I think we're incident is the archetypical. Good mob? I think that's what his character reluctantly, reluctantly or not, I think he's the person who will do rice when no one else will, you know, as long as he can complain about it beforehand,

Tessa  30:18  
oh my god, this section where he finds the library burned, and he's just like scrambling through the remains of it before he realizes that the books are okay. It's so heartbreaking. The scene where he's talking to the librarian, and he basically is just like, what, what am I supposed to do about this? He says, Only it can't be me. You see, when I came here, I thought I could do something. But that tower, it's so big, it must be proof against all magic, if really powerful wizards won't do anything about it. How can I? I feel like for those people who try to do right in the world who tried to do the good thing, this is a really relatable thing to think like this idea of like, oh, well, climate change is just so huge. How could I possibly do anything about that? Or, you know, how could I possibly do something about COVID, or systemic racism, you know, or something like that? It's just so big. And if the powerful people aren't doing anything about it, how could I possibly do anything about it? That was very compelling to me, especially because then he realizes, after the librarian threatens his hat, that he is a wizard, and that he is the he's the only one right who can do this. So I think that's really powerful.

Nigel  31:29  
Obviously, I'm someone who's very attached to her books, consider him sitting in my bookshelf, the only book I've ever will willingly given up is a copy of normal people, because I hate that book. I didn't sell it. I gave it gratis to my friend, Mary Kate, because I knew she liked the book and had lost her copy of it. The only book I've ever given away. Any other book that I've previously owned, and no longer have, has been just gotten rid of because there was a young child without agency. And my parents were like, well, it's time to clear out. So like, I'm very attached to books. And it's really interesting, because the book I read before, so like I literally just finished it and then I started reading sources really interesting is this series set in an infinite library, which is in hell, I really recommend that it's called the library of the unwritten. Yeah, so the basic conceit is they're in a library in hell. But it's not a normal library. Everyone's like books that they started writing and never finished are like, instead of coming up with the idea in their head, is in this library, but I was reading the sequel. The sequel is called the archive of the forgotten and there was a point in it where they're talking about books. They're called brevity and probity. The oily feeling and brevity is God was a mix of horror and old wounds. There was some truth in what probity said there was always some truth. But brevity had learned long ago that some truth was not all truth. Stop it. You weren't there to fire when it took the books. She gulped down the bile that threatened to rise and squeezed her eyes closed until their stomach behaved itself. You saw one fire probity, said quietly. I've seen them all. Brevity opened her eyes to question that but stopped. probity was already lost in thought looking into the shadows of the library, but seeing something else, they burden them first, the stories, humans always come for the stories. First, it's their warm up before they start burning other humans. It's their first form of control to burn the libraries to burn the books to burn the archives of a culture. Humans are the stories they tell if you want to destroy your enemy, destroy their stories, even if the people survive. It will be as if they never existed at all, brevity chewed on her lip. Humans do a lot of terrible things during war war, probity said and it was caught somewhere between amusement and agony, shall we revisit the peacetime burning that library censored and burned the stories that died and were forgotten by accident by neglect by ignorance by and hear the most notorious peacetime murder of all by piety? Books burned because they threatened Bronze Age beliefs and scared old men in long

Tessa  34:03  
robes? Yeah, although it's interesting that it's explore through coin that says that the library must burn.

Nigel  34:11  
And this is the what's his name, spelter. This is the point which makes him realize that like maybe what they're doing is wrong. And it's not even because he he doesn't even consider the librarian who lives there. Until he goes and talks to him, you know, because it says, Oh, he knew the library was going to be burned and he had the sick feeling that it was him who was going to be made do us. So yeah, it starts off as a bit self centered, but also like this needless destruction of culture and memory.

Tessa  34:43  
But the image of all of the books flying out of the burning library into the tower of art is just like a wonderful image like flying like birds and then the librarian is like repairing the ones that get singed or get damaged in some way.

Nigel  34:58  
The way that the library is defends the library where he's like, jumps down behind them and like puts his hand over their mouth and like, takes them away. It reminded me of the old the old monkey joke but I want to adopt it. librarian did you hear about the librarian who was protecting the library? Wizard? No, I did not lay buried. That is because I have the silent ape muffled sounds of librarian violence.

Tessa  35:28  
He is very violent when it comes to protecting the library. But he also takes in the patrician who gets turned into a lizard by coin, although he doesn't remember it later. So we do get a slight vetinari We also get introduced to waffles, who is a very important Discworld character, especially because I just love dogs, but I know in guards guards, they mentioned the vetinari had a old terrier that he was quite fond of. And now we finally get introduced to that terrier.

Nigel  35:56  
Oh, I just think waffles is a very good dog.

Tessa  35:58  
He's a very good dog. He's a little slow and old, but he's a good dog.

Nigel  36:03  
That's entirely my thoughts. It's just Oh, good dog.

Tessa  36:06  
Think it's so adorable that the patrician who is this person who is terrifying to so many people clearly loves the stock like just like, auto like, you know, like unashamedly like, the dog just sits with him all the time. He's got his own little bed. He goes with them. Like he tries to defend him. He tries to pick them up at one point. Even bad people love their animals. Mary hated the Brits for a second. Yes, of course. Is this is this not a Nanny Ogg podcast? Even

Nigel  36:35  
evil people love their animals. I hesitate to call veterinary evil.

Tessa  36:40  
He is one of my favorite characters as well. But the way that he's positioned is definitely morally neutral. In terms of, yes, pragmatic is what he is right? Exactly. But the way that he's often characterized as more like a Bond villain, even though he actually isn't a Bond villain, and the

Nigel  37:00  
way he talks about him sitting on his lap, and like, stroking waffles is very much like the Blofeld archetype. Yes. Yes, evil people who love their animals, the Queen at her corgis.

Tessa  37:13  
That's true. The patrician is way better than the Queen though. Let's let's just face it. Did you notice the Lord of the Rings reference in this the scene with vetinari sitting on the throne or sitting on the chair in front

Nigel  37:25  
of yeah, very demo Thor The second.

Tessa  37:30  
Yeah, I thought you would appreciate that. I also think the joke at the beginning when kanina gets into the fight with the patricians guard and rinse wind says you can't you're going against the man. I like that the man in this case is literally vetinari Even though we generally think of the man is like the powers that be or whatever, it's just kind of a fun little joke, but the library and takes care of both of them, especially waffles, like they're all barricaded into the library together.

Nigel  37:58  
The librarian gets to continue being ponderous, but also he gets to be proactive. Then Mary is pragmatic and the librarian in this book gets to be proactive, like we saw the kind of in guards guards but also like this book came out before guard skirts where we get like a real sense of veterinary the only sense of you got was where he threatened rinse wind in color of magic before. And like, again, the librarian helps. Well basically like kicks, viruses acid to gear, but again, carrots guards was written and published after sorcery,

Tessa  38:34  
he almost serves the role of making rinse wind proactive, right, he's the one who gives rinse when the the fortitude and helps talk him into doing his heroics at the end. Although I do love the scene, where everything becomes too much for the librarian for a moment. So he goes back into the library and pulls a blanket over his head. I feel like we've all been there in the last two years, like sometimes, even though you know, you have to do things. Sometimes you just need a minute under a blanket to

Nigel  39:00  
collect yourself is very much like the fainting couch type idea where it's like, oh, this is all become a little bit too much for me

Tessa  39:07  
before the end of the book coin offers to change library and back into a human and the librarian has a very visceral reaction to that.

Nigel  39:15  
Yeah, it's not quite as bad as him being called the M word. But like, it's definitely he doesn't want it he and they've said it before, is it in good skirts? I think at the start where they you know, this is someone who's happy as he is. Yeah, I

Tessa  39:29  
mean, I may talk about that a little bit here where they say like, life is a lot simpler for him. Like he enjoys the simplicity of being a Ranga Tang, you know, he only has really two goals in life, protect the library and to eat bananas and be happy, right? Like he he doesn't like this whole existential angst of being a human. Let's talk about coin because I know that you want to talk about him and I especially want to focus on his relationship to explore via the staff and his relationship to rinse wind that we see later.

Nigel  40:00  
I really liked it, because the all thing I like about coin is that he's railroaded into this because Ypsilon has a bone to pick with the unseen University at the same time, it feels not developed enough, because we don't spend enough time with coin. I wanted to start that sentence off if I were writing this book, but I wouldn't be writing this book. And this book has already been written. And it's been written by someone who's much better at writing than I am. But if I were to make a similar idea to this, I'd have more POV chapters of coin, where it would show his interaction with the staff. Because like, it's really, it's really good, the bad at the admin where this where he wants to throw the staff away. And the staff says to him, you know, the, you know, the punishment, you know, the price for boys who are like, you know, who misbehave, who don't do what they're told. And this is like a relationship dynamic, which is built on trauma and abuse. But it nearly comes out of left field, because all we get of the voice of EPs, Laura is the bit at the start, where he just tells death, straight up, I'm going to like, live his life for him and decide his fate. And then at the end, we get exlore being fought against, no, we're in the middle really, is there this thing, so I would have liked more dialogue and maybe like the hint of coins, own subconscious even thinking, Well, is this wrong. And I think like the library would be a good point to do that. You'd have the POV of like the wizards in general at the University where he gives the order and then you'd have a POV chapter where spelter would go off, and he'd have his revelation that burning the library is wrong. And then you'd cut to a POV summer and the same time of coin talking to explore the staff. And he'd say like, what do you think? Do you not think this is wrong or something? I really wanted to like coin, but we didn't spend enough time for me to like, be convinced that he's a fully fleshed out character, because he's given all this power, like he's given unlimited power. And he does a lot of stuff with it. I don't know, why is he doing that?

Tessa  42:15  
He's very creepy at the beginning. But we he's impenetrable. We can't really tell what's going on in his internal motivations, or really separate out him versus the staff for most of the book.

Nigel  42:27  
But if you make it like out, outwardly obvious, the staff is like, something that everyone can pick up on is kind of being the one in charge.

Tessa  42:37  
There's only really two moments in the book, and they're very blink. And you'll miss the moments where it's implied that if slore is a very bad abusive father, and that that's the dynamic that's happening. The first one is at the beginning when he says that he drove his sons away, like this idea that his other sons because he had seven other sons, which we never see in these books, but they're very powerful wizards in their own right. We never see them. But the idea is, is that there is a irrevocable rift between him and his other sides. And he says that's to make them strong, which is classic, like abusive father type of reasoning. But then we also get this one moment where spelter can't like, it's he doesn't really describe what happens, we just get to see him like peeking into coins room and finding coins sobbing on his bed. Right? He is clearly very distressed. Beyond that, like you said, we don't get any of coins, motivations, we don't really get any thing else besides besides these implications until the very end, that if slore is manipulating both physically and emotionally coin and behaving in this very abusive way. I'd like to contrast that with Rincewind. who, when he shows up with his Halfbrick in a sock, which is like, I love that like that, but he doesn't even come with magic, like because he knows he can't use the sorcery to fight to fight coin, but he shows up with his Halfbrick in the sock. And he's like, where's the sorcerer? Like, I'm gonna stand against him. And then he realizes that the Sorcerer is eight years old, like he says that he'd heard all these stories about how powerful the sorcerer was, and how wicked the sorcerer was, but he'd never really, like been told how old the sorcerer was. And his first response is not to go after Quwain. But to say you don't have to do this, which I just think is this really powerful moment where he says you don't have to do this. You can just throw the staff away. It's such a short period of time that they get to have together. But it's such a cathartic period of time.

Nigel  44:41  
I think it speaks an awful lot to ramsons growth as a character. At the end of it all. He's someone who can you can count on to do the right thing to be kind where coin is an eight year old child. Yeah, like who's visibly traumatized and doesn't know like, I mean, this whole reason we don't gives eight year olds the right to vote. And it's because they're not fully formed human beings, and kind of don't really know what they're doing, and just copy their parents and the people around them. And they're highly impressionable. You know, like, imagine if you like, this is the equivalent of like giving a toddler a gun. And then just like showing the toddler how to shoot, but not like instilling any gun safety in them. And so then you like walk into a Walmart and there's a child with like a pistol, and he's holding the store up and wants to shoot everyone, because he thinks that they're like, lesser than him. And then you're like, What the fuck are you doing? You know, like, don't you have Cartoon Network to be watching this, but basically what Ritalin does,

Tessa  45:43  
but he's so kind to him, he recognizes what's happening, and nobody else, none of the other wizards treat him like he's an eight year old child. It's just interesting that none of the wizards can recognize that because all they see him is as a power source, right? As somebody either be scared of, or somebody who could make them great. Who can allow them this power ruins when just sees like a scared kid. He basically says just because it's prophesied or whatever, that doesn't mean anything like you can choose not to be this way. It's like no one had ever told him that before.

Nigel  46:15  
Well, because like coin is a child who's unused to kindness. If slore says it to death, I'm pretty sure or whatever. He's talking about his sons. And it's like, well, you know, what's the deal with your other sons? And he's like, Well, they wouldn't do what I wanted. So like, Screw them, right? When like, recognizes the pieces that are broken inside himself, or he's made recognize them. And then like, that allows him to be empathetic.

Tessa  46:37  
And there's a lot in this book about rinse wins identity as a wizard, like people keep saying, Well, why do you have to wear the hat? Nigel at one point, it's like, well, you could just take off the hat and not be a wizard. And that's like anathema to rinse wind. He is a wizard that is like a key part of his identity, despite the fact that he's not very good at it. Despite the fact that he keeps getting drawn into these adventures. Despite himself, his identity is tied up to being a wizard, even though he is not a famous wizard or a particularly great wizard, or anything like that. He just has a very badly misspelled wizard on his hat.

Nigel  47:13  
Um, it's an interesting call back to or call forward to a guess pyramids of all books, where the concept of like being a stranger in a familiar land, where it's like, here are the things that you know about yourself. And it's like, do they really line up with what you a believe and be think you are? Like, Renson is a wizard, but he can't do magic. And the only way he's identified as a wizard is his belief that that's what he is or can be. And similarly, I like that's Marilyn Coyne, who is the child of prophecy. He's the sorcerer wizard squared, you know, and so he has to do something great. Whereas like, what does he want to do? He probably just wants to like, play Legos or some shit like he's eight. Leave him leave him alone. Yeah,

Tessa  48:00  
right. He's a child. And that gets echoed to when the ice giants are released, because coin imprisons the gods in like a little real pearl reality. So the ice giants are released. So the apocalypse happens. And Nigel like tries to talk sense into the ice giants and basically says, Well, why do you have to do it? And they're like, because we have to, but what you know, you could just not do it, like this idea of you know, that you could just like choose to do something other than what other people have told you that you have to do. I don't think I noticed that the first time.

Nigel  48:32  
The wi Zeds. At ARD, I wonder is this according to the the English band wizard which is spelt with two Z's who are most famous for their song, I wish it could be Christmas every day, and not for the fact that they're formed by the co founder of the ELO.

Tessa  48:47  
I have no idea. I had never heard of that before. I mean, Pratchett mainly just keeps saying that he's a bad speller, but it's quite possible that that's a reference. I mean, they were active in the 70s. So that would make sense.

Nigel  49:00  
Hebrews 1140, the six track off the mountain goats 2009 album, the life of the world to come. So it's like death every June, whatever, it's in the world's gone cold into the course. It gets dark and then I feel certain I'm going to rise again, if not by faith than by the sword, I'm going to be restored. Take to the hills run away. I'm going to get my perfect body back someday, if not by faith than by the sword. Your life doesn't line up with where you think it's gonna be or where you want it to be, I think is a relevant lyric to like anyone who's experiencing a major quarter, three quarter decade, life crisis, you know, where it's like, well, things aren't as good as you thought that would be. You went to this new place, you become king of the kingdom. And it's not what you thought it was going to be. Well, you know, fight whatever you got. Get your perfect body. You know, you're gonna make it some time that ties

Tessa  49:58  
into what happens with the wizard At the end when rinse when is like WHY WON'T any of you help him he helped you he gave you everything that you wanted, one of the wizards says, and we may never forgive him this idea of like, this is actually not what we wanted. We thought we wanted all this power and the ability to change the world. But actually we did not want this is not what we thought it would be. I have to mention before we move on with Rincewind two things First of all rinse wins last words because at one point, he says they're in the dungeon dimension and he decides to to draw the things the creatures away from the portal so queen can go back through it and seal it. It was he thought time for a few last words, what he said now was likely to be important. Perhaps they would be words that would be remembered and handed down and maybe even carved deeply in slabs of granite words without too many curly letters in then I really wish I wasn't here, he muttered. That is such a red swin line. Like his last words. I really wish I wasn't here, because he's doing like this such this noble thing. But he can't help the complaint about it just a little bit at the end. But yeah, he apparently dies or disappears into the dungeon dimension. At the end of this book. He sends coin back through he sacrifices himself to get coin back through. The last thing we see is the luggage jumping into the rift after rinse wind because luggage will not abandon its owner. And that's it. That's the last we see of them in this book. How did that make you feel? I was I cried it that you did

Nigel  51:36  
yeah. Also later on, like at the end where they have the hat. And it's so like, it's in a complete utter state of disrepair, but it's there because they're holding out hope that Renson will come back and they say, oh wizard can always be sure to like to return for his hat will always be sure to come back for his hat, whatever the specific line is. And it reminded me of the book bridge of clay first of all, which makes me cry a lot. The whole ending of it is part of the epilogue is that one of the brothers just basically goes missing and then eventually shows up. You know, a dumber boy can always be certain to return home. But also this post that I have saved in a folder just called God I'm fucking crying. This is the only thing in it. It's a post that Neil Gaiman posted on Instagram on 12 to December 2017. I meant to look at the practical sets they were building for the good omen show of zero fellas bookshop in zerefos bookshop, there's a little area of books by one of his favorite authors and a half the one of the customers left behind and we'll be back for one day. And it's all the Discworld books and pens around. And it has Terry Pratchett signature hat hanging up on the hat rack. And it's like, reminded me of that and reminded me of the fact that Sir Terry is dead, which made me cry a lot. Yeah, but also like, linchpin kind of is. Pratchett stands in I think, most out of all the characters by our death, because death. Okay, so, in terms of characters that Terry Pratchett is, it goes, number one, the narrator, who I don't think is Pratchett, specifically, but is close to Pratchett then number two is death. And then number three is Rincewind. But Renson is the most like Pratchett out of all the human characters, I think that we've encountered, you know, because he's kind of like a slightly magical, older man who's very attached to a large floppy half.

Tessa  53:33  
Yeah, that's very Pratchet. They both have hats that are part of their defining looks.

Nigel  53:37  
Yeah, you remember that weird plot point where Renson? Like, temporarily believes he's in our world where he's Dr. RINs? wand? Yes. What was his job? Again? This is not like a leading question. I'm trying to remember what was his job again? Wasn't he like a physicist? Yeah, very Pratchett. Some things you to do with like nuclear energy or something, which is kind of like, I guess what they're kidding to like the power of magic and the power of dragons, which stem from imagination and stuff. But it's very much like, solitary being a nuclear engineer. Wait, can I just say, this is another recurring site, but this is yet another book, which teases me about source? Yes. They've been short. Yeah, the river sort that the luggage was like, basically tries to drown itself in because it's sad that like Kadena doesn't return its affections or whatever. That was a weird plot point. But it's like stop referencing source. If you're not sure. Show me sort. Every single book we've read has referenced soar in one way or another. We've never seen, I think at this stage. Now. It'd be really funny. I think it'd be really funny if it turned out that we'd never ever saw sort. And it was just this running joke.

Tessa  54:51  
I'm not going to tell you what we'll see. Mainly because I don't actually remember so we'll have to see. Yeah, where we go with that. So I guess actually Since you mentioned the luggage let's talk very briefly about the luggage. I am in love with the dedication of this book. Many years ago I saw in Bath a very large American lady towing a huge tartan suitcase very fast on little ratalie wheels, which caught in the pavement cracks and generally gave it a life of its own. At that moment, the luggage was born many things to that lady and everyone else in places like power cable, Nebraska, who don't get nearly enough encouragement, this book does not contain a map, feel free to draw your own. What a dedication,

Nigel  55:30  
obviously, there is a book called the math of Discworld. It's one of those companion books he did. But yeah, it really is like, it feels like he's having the thing off and acknowledging the fact that like the book, once it's in the readers hands is as much theirs as it is the authors. And several world is powered by imagination, like the dragons that I mentioned, like just there. But everything runs on this like tacit understanding that the reader understands just how bizarre that everything really is. And that's what like, once you've acknowledged that that's how Discworld works. So like there's no map feel free to draw your own it's like well, you know, interpret this how you will this is your book, have fun with it.

Tessa  56:14  
It's also an acknowledgement that the Discworld is closer to magic than it is to science right like our reality is closer to a more scientific way of the world working whereas this world is more towards magic and they've the narrator's made that distinction very clear many times.

Nigel  56:32  
Every single book needs to bring up the fact that like light works differently when it travels through a stronger magical field.

Tessa  56:39  
It speaking of magical fields, the luggage made of sapient pearwood gets its own sort of emotional arc in this book, because it follows rents wind and Cadena to klatch sort of falls in love with Canina, which rinse when sort of feels because it has this psychic connection. And so he reads when for a minute things that he's in love with Kadena until he realizes that those emotions are coming from the luggage Kadena like very offhandedly. Like like kind of like pushes the luggage away and says like go away. And so the luggage filled with the sting of betrayal goes on like this like personal journey of grief, right where it tries to drink itself into a stupor it tries to drown itself it goes into this desert where it gets attacked by all these like, different mythical creatures that it that kills and then finally decides to go back to rinse wind.

Nigel  57:32  
No, I like this whole like love Lauren. Oh, sad. I just born I don't like it, like in the nanny media. But I mean, I'm not a fan of like romance in books, and TV and films and shit. So like, I think maybe that's just an extension of that where it's like, I don't like seeing it being built up. Especially when it's not the focus of the book. And then when you devote a large portion of a book to or even a small portion like it isn't this one, like a character being sad that I don't care. I'm sorry, I just I don't care. Uh, maybe that's a bit callous, or people people might think I'm an asshole I'm sorry. I like I just can't connected I can't fathom.

Tessa  58:16  
I mean, that's fair. I mean, everybody has different things they connect to I thought it was very sad and very very funny at the same time. I especially liked when it's like the descriptions of it having its heartbroken and then getting extremely like angry and it starts to develop a headache and so it gets angry and goes after that the hat that our Chancellor's hat because it sees it as like to blame for the predicament that it's in. We do get some really great moments with the luggage though. I really love the one at the beginning where it's like hibernating on top of Prince winds wardrobe. And the one where it describes it as the luggage didn't have any features at all apart from a lock in a couple of hinges but it could stare better than a rock full of iguanas. The fact that he manages to give the luggage such personality even though it doesn't talk it doesn't have a face. I just think that's brilliant. What about Kadena? What did you think about her the daughter of Conan the Barbarian who we met in the light fantastic.

Nigel  59:14  
I didn't I was like okay, she's just kind of gonna be this like underdeveloped side character and then it's also like, I don't know like Canino are gonna really out myself here. I can eat a I'd like kunena beat the shit out of me. You know,

Tessa  59:32  
I mean, right? She is underdeveloped. But she's still pretty cool.

Nigel  59:37  
I like I don't know I really connected with her whole she just wants to be a hairdresser. Because you see that a lot in especially like to do with warriors or I suppose like in the modern, like non fantasy sense. Like in fantasy books you have like, Oh, this is a great warrior and he's raised his eldest son to follow in his footsteps as a knight or a barbarian or whatever. And you see this with like, Nigella's razor. He's reading Cohen's book about how to be a barbarian. But also like in the modern world with Hitman and contract killers, like how in the Suicide Squad both the characters of Bloodsport and Peacemaker were raised from birth by their parents to be killers, their fathers specifically, which is something we see as well, but coin actually raised from birth to be a certain way, Kadena also gets that moment. It's a bit affirming to see in the next book after equal rights, because equal rights felt very much like gender essentialist, whereas this one is like, well, how you're born isn't necessarily how you're meant to be, or how you see yourself is the most true reflection of who you are.

Tessa  1:00:45  
It kind of reminds me of that scene in Tangled, where they go to the inn and meet all of the barbarians and thieves. And then they're all scared, but then they realize that all of these people actually don't want to be barbarians. They all have like their own dreams. And they all start singing I have a dream. That's what this reminds me of.

Nigel  1:01:03  
I quite like that about kunena. But also like, I let her beat me up.

Tessa  1:01:06  
Yeah, she is way more interesting to me than the last underdeveloped female character that we saw, which was in pyramids. I think that she's great. I love that eventually Ridhwan stops worrying about her because he knows that she'll just get herself out of any situation that she finds herself in. She's like this master thief. She and she keeps complaining that it's about it's her hereditary hereditary, right when she talks about CO and I like it even when she talks about Cohen, who is a character we've established and there's this really funny scene, where they're courted by the archers in class, and she says, My father always said that it was pointless to undertake a direct attack against an enemy extensively armed with efficient projectile weapons rights, when to new Cohen's normal method of speech gave her a look of disbelief. Well, what he actually said she added was never enter an arse kicking contest with a porcupine. I like that because it's a callback to a character we know. We get that whole thing and the light fantastic with Cohen, and like his teeth, and he finally gets his dentures and all of that. Oh, I have a question for you, Nigel. Actually, it's a two part question. Okay. This is me being a ignorant American and having to ask a question about UK is the gas No, although I would love for you to talk about that. Actually. Why don't you talk about that first and then I'll ask you my question.

Nigel  1:02:31  
I was really excited about this. Also, I thought I thought the comparison to Renson thinking was a goose they were referring to geese plural. And then especially after incident as I thought it was quite touching how they talking about the bird flock of birds rising you know, I'm Renson would have loved like, you know, would have basically tickled him pink to know that they're, they're called Kiss in Irish Celtic mythology. Yes, is kind of this obligation, or kind of like a prophecy nearly or, but also like a curse. It's kind of all three where it's like an obligation you're put under the you have to like do certain things, or you can't do certain things. And if you break them, you basically like die or something really bad happens to you. Um, there's this story, I can't remember what folklore story it is. person under it is like place them there are a whole bunch of gasolina. And he basically can't do anything without breaking one of them. I have to like look up for comparisons. And it says like, the one in Macbeth about how Macbeth can only be killed by someone, not a woman born or how the Witch King of Angmar in Lord of the Rings can't be killed by mortal man, kind of like that. Also, if you're familiar with animais, code chaos, Lucia the rebellion is this literally is named after it. And the power that Lucia uses of gas is to force people into doing things for him. So it's still it's still extant, but it's it's an Irish word. I'm a Celtic concept, I think is really interesting because nothing bad is going to happen to Nigel if he doesn't obey this gasp but it's the cultural, it's a very Irish thing as well, the idea of cultural institutions or cultural concepts as institutions, like having control over them, and that's what Nigel feels. Whenever I talk about it. It feels like I'm talking in the third person. That's what Nigel feels. He believes that he has to cleave to this idea of being a perfect barbarian, but nothing's gonna happen if he doesn't, but he's afraid of what he'll be without the identity of him as a barbarian. And that's what frightens him. Now you had a question for me.

Tessa  1:05:05  
My two part question is, so on page 208 of my book, there's this really, really wonderful passage about rents wind, and I'm going to read the whole thing and then I have a question and I'm wondering if you'll know immediately what I'm talking about. Hi over the circle, see, Rincewind was feeling a bit of an idiot. This happens to everyone sooner or later. For an example, in a tavern, someone jogs your elbow and you turn around and give a mouthful of abuse to you become slowly aware, the belt buckle of a man who it turns out was probably human rather than born. Or a little car runs into the back of yours and you rush out to show a bunch of fives to the driver who it becomes apparent as he goes on unfolding more body like some horrible conjuring trick must have been sitting on the back seat. What is show a bunch of fives. And is this a British ism or a UK isn't

Nigel  1:05:59  
ever heard this. But a bunch of fives presume I, I guess I would presume that it's referring to the digits on your hands to show a bunch of fives I don't know. But like, showing your hands with like all five digits clearly displayed, which is how I would imagine showing fives

Tessa  1:06:21  
I just I knew it was probably something rude. I just had no idea what it is. But I was reading it. And I love that section. It goes on to say basically, like, this is how you feel when the waves of anger have like brought you up the beach of retribution. But you've like gone too far, because you have no backing. And it's so funny, but I just couldn't figure out what that phrase meant.

Nigel  1:06:40  
Oh, yeah, well, the beach of retribution is the beach that makes you all I was talking so much about. It makes you old in the car today. Because my brother was like, What the fuck are you talking about? So I had to explain the movie as a concept. There are two locations in this book. And none of them are the beach that makes you old.

Tessa  1:07:01  
None of them are the beach that makes you old. There's encore Park, more specifically the unseen University. We learned two things about the unseen University and its surroundings in this one is the tower of art is older than the university and nobody really knows where it came from. But the unseen University and Alec morepork were sort of built around this ever addressed. I don't know I don't remember but I do not think so.

Nigel  1:07:26  
I think this is a fascinating idea of I don't think Discworld is the type of series that lends itself to what I think fascinates me about this, the whole concept of like something being older than it should be in especially like an urban fantasy setting where it's like, Well, where did it come from? I like the investigation into that I think really fascinates me. Like, especially with like magical underworld in post industrial magic cities. So either like Chicago in the Dresden Files, or like New York slash London in the Mortal Instruments Infernal Devices series, or somewhere like Uncle morepork. You know, where it's like the investigation into that I'd like to I'm a sucker for precursor. Actually, that's a fun other example of where gas is used chaos is a precursor word used in Halo. Yeah, this whole thing of like, Well, where did it come from? Like, I'm a really big fan of the metaplot of the Assassin's Creed series. I have no idea why. But like, I think the whole plot about the YSU artifacts, and the first civilization is really fucking interesting. But that's just because of like, I'm really into the exploration of things being older than they should be in precursor races. So yeah, it's

Tessa  1:08:47  
just sort of an illusion to a world that's perhaps older than this. It also reminds me of Mass Effects, like the series of games that I love so much, because one of the big drivers of the plot is this idea that humans were able to jump ahead in their technology, because they based it on a race that was much older and has died out. And then the rest of the series actually sort of explores that idea. Like, is it actually good that we based all our technology on this race? Or is it bad, like, like, all these artifacts that you find? So yeah, it's very interesting stuff. But we get introduced to Seder square, which is this place that's right outside of the university, where like kind of this market, this outdoor market has grown up, where they're selling all of these artifacts and food. It's the place that you mentioned earlier, where the wizard makes the pie appear out of thin air. This is a really complex reference that Terry Pratchett is making. Are you aware of the Seder square?

Nigel  1:09:41  
I know what the Seder square is, yes. And I hate it because it's the it's the basis of the film Tenet, which is a film I hate just on references in that scene. It's a weird like reverse I don't want to say perversion, because that's not what Discworld concerns itself with but it's a weird like inversion to go back to See a tour of the scene where Jesus overturns the the stalls in the temple? Yes, where they've made a marketplace of a temple and now the wizards are making a temple of America place.

Tessa  1:10:13  
So for those of you who are listening, look up the Seder squares, you can see what it looks like. But basically it refers to a magic square. Get It's a magic square. It dates back to the time of the spread of Christianity in Europe. But Seder literally means sower or farmer and the square, which is a square of different words is paler, dramatic in all directions. So you get like different Latin words, but they're all like depending on which way you read it, you can get different sentences from it. It's really fascinating, but I just think it's a really interesting reference that Pratchett has made here. So the other place we get is clash, which this is the first time we've seen clash, but it is not the last time that we will see clash. Oh, joy. So here's the thing about klatch I had a realization while I was reading this and I'm really interested to know what you think. So as as I was reading it, I'm like, oh, gosh, this seems like more Orientalist stereotypes except for you know, it's the traditional like, here's some like Orientalist ideas about what the Middle East is like. But also we're going to like undercut it with a lot of humor. Like these are actually just people living their lives in this place, kind of like what we had in pyramids in the in the kingdom of jelly baby. But I started to realize when I was reading the poetry that creosote is doing and like the way that he's created like this wilderness in the middle of his palace, that this actually might be making more fun of the way that the Romantics in the 19th century wrote about the Middle East than it is actually making fun of the Middle East itself, mainly because a lot of creosote poetry is based on Edward Fitzgerald translation of The Rubaiyat of Omar Cayambe. Have you ever studied The Rubaiyat?

Nigel  1:11:52  
No, I have not. I think that's a failing of our English syllabus, is the fact that like, it's not even offered in any of the modules. As far as I know.

Tessa  1:12:03  
The really funny thing about the 19th century is that the Romantics like all of these people, Percy Shelley, Byron, like Edward Fitzgerald, Burton, who did this terrible, terrible translation of 1001 Nights, they were obsessed with the Orient, right? Like the, the Middle East, like this fictional place where like all of these brown people live to these like exotic and extravagant lives, right. And so you get a lot of really terrible stereotypes from that. But they were also obsessed with the poetry of a lot of different Middle Eastern poets. And I use the word Middle East because they often confused cultures. So like, I can't point you to a specific culture, because they weren't actually that concerned about like a specific culture when they were appropriating and discussing a lot of these things. But the thing is, is that when they did these translations, they weren't real translation. They were what they thought that a Middle Eastern translation would be like. So when Edward Fitzgerald did The Rubaiyat of Omar Cayambe. It's actually more of what Edward Fitzgerald thought that the poetry should be like, rather than what the poetry actually would translate to. So when I was reading creosote poetry, like when he says the book, a book of verses underneath the bow, a jug of wine and a loaf of bread and thou, that's almost exactly out of The Rubaiyat of Omar ck, I am the translation by Edward Fitzgerald. So that made me think maybe this is actually a parody of the way that the Romantics in the 19th century thought the Middle East was like, rather than an actual statement about the Middle East,

Nigel  1:13:38  
how I read his poetry seemed very much like Homeric poetry, especially, the one that especially still cared for me was when he talked about Rosie finger Dong, which is like directly from it's an epithet from the Odyssey. And the way he talks about Canina with just the most Oh, they're so disgusting. I hate them, the way he talks about kunena. The way he talks about her with epithets is very much like Homer the Homeric tradition of poetry. So that's what I thought it was.

Tessa  1:14:09  
Yeah, it there is kind of that that element to it. The and this comes from a biblical background, the way he talks about like, thy hair is a flock of goats. That's an actual quote from the Song of Solomon from the Bible. Like if you read the Song of Solomon, it's full of this type of language like thou has doves eyes within the locks I hear as a flock of goats. Thy two breasts are like two young rows that are twins, which feed among the lilies. People don't realize how sexy Song of Solomon is like, they tend to like skip that one. But it's a lot of really graphic descriptions of women's bodies. To me that read as like Word, we're talking about an older way, a romantic way of envisioning a place in the Middle East that isn't actually real. But the problem is, is that that's not clear from a first reading like you would have To be very familiar with 19th century romantics to understand that that's what he's doing here. So the question is, Is he making fun of Orientalism? By reproducing Orientalism? Like, where's the wine here?

Nigel  1:15:14  
I don't know. Because this didn't occur to me. So I suppose, I don't know. Like, I suppose, on the one hand power defeat, wants to give Pratchett the benefit of doubt, because I don't feel like Pratchett intentionally, like, portrays, like negative stereotypes, you know, like out of a place of malice or prejudice. But at the same time, like, I don't know enough about this to comment either way,

Tessa  1:15:42  
another one. So at one point, the saref says, Get up for the morning and the cup of day have to drop the spoon that scares the stars away. That's a parody of the Ruby awake for the morning and the middle of the night, how long the stone that puts the stars to flight. So there's a lot of that going on here. Again, it's like though, if you don't make that clear, or if people aren't aware of what's happening reads is very, very problematic. We have had a mixed bag of endings when it comes to Pratchett. We've really liked some of them, we've really disliked some of them. What did you think about this ending, where rinse wind and the luggage disappear into the dungeon dimensions? Coin puts everything back right at the end, but then he leaves he goes to his own dimension, because sorcery can't really contain be contained in the world, right? So Sorcerer's can only wear the world for a while they can't live there. Everyone kind of forgets what happens except for the librarian. And then there's sort of like this hopeful moment at the end where it sort of teases that maybe, maybe we'll have a return.

Nigel  1:16:47  
I quite liked it. I liked the whole coin sets things to write some makes everyone forget about his existence. And it's like, because it's the only version of the it was all a dream conjecture that I'll accept. It was all a dream, it feels like a cheat. But whereas you've been convinced that it was all a dream after the fact, I can get behind that. I'm not advocating for gaslighting, I'm not advocating for like, magical memory wiping for like a specific plot purpose, like this one is especially I suppose you'd call it noble if preventing just the sheer and utter destruction of reality. I like to renew and sacrifice for his car. And I liked things of being set to write by coin on the fact that the librarian refuses, refuses to be turned back to a human, but agrees to keep coins secret.

Tessa  1:17:38  
I find memory wiping to be very problematic from an ethical point of view, because there's a lack of consent a lot of times, and I hate that Cadena and Nigel forget who rinse wind is, oh, yeah, no shit obviously never happened. So that's kind of sad. I will say though, that I understand that the events of the book like all of the sorcery and the mage wars, part two in the bending of reality, that might be a little bit too much for most people to even really remember on their own. So that it might just seem all like a dream in a lot of ways, even if coin did nothing. So that that kind of makes sense to me. Like

Nigel  1:18:13  
the thing like the mist like I'm specifically talking about, like taking the name for the mist in the Percy Jackson series that stops mortals from perceiving like, the things that the gods are doing, like that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, cuz there's a lot of that in fantasy and mythology. So like it would make sense. There are actually at the very end of the Wheel of Time series. And I won't tell you how, because I know Sam is reading one of them every once in a while. And also now that the show is out, it seemed very weird that I would like just test for the very ending of it. But it reminds me of it. I really just liked reading the the ice giants that were very fun to read in my head.

Tessa  1:18:56  
The book basically tells us that when children make snowmen, they're like representations of ice giants kind of like Jack O' Lanterns are supposed to be like representations of like demons or whatever. So like I appreciate that. That sightings there are four deaths sightings in this book the first one is of course at the very beginning when he comes to collect explore but explore escapes with him by making that deal. The next one is when the mage wars Part Two is about to begin and rinse when just for a minute sees death like he's running a wet his scythe down a whetstone and gave him a nod of acknowledgement as between one professional and another he put a bony digit to his lips or rather to the place where his lips would have been if he'd had lips oh wizard see death but they don't necessarily want to and so it's just this very brief moment where rinse when sees him this really reminded me of your rinse wind and death enemies to lovers like it almost felt like a wink here. Like where were like the mage Wars is about to start and runswick just sees him for a second. Yeah, I Ship yeah I ship it to I think that's great.

Nigel  1:20:02  
Oh my god their ship them can be death wind,

Tessa  1:20:05  
death wind that's a great ship name the third time we see death. The third death sighting is when he is in a pub outside of aquarium with the other three horsemen of the apocalypse. They're all having a drink. And then of course Codina Nigel and creosote steel, the other three horsemen's horses, and so death has to ride out alone

Nigel  1:20:26  
on Binky

Tessa  1:20:28  
on Pinky, so the rest of the did you know that they were stealing the Horseman's horses when they described Binky, they don't actually say binkies name, but then they describe him.

Nigel  1:20:37  
I clocked it afterwards. Yeah, like I read the description. And then I was like, Oh, they're just, they're just stealing some horses. And then I like went out to make her cup of tea and I went, Wait a minute.

Tessa  1:20:50  
That was Binky. Yeah, of course. The other three horsemen get super drunk in the in the pub, because they can't I laughed so hard when they're trying to remember the song and pestilence of singing like bah bah,

Nigel  1:21:03  
bah. Well, no, they don't all get your father just has a bunch of peanuts, which I thought was very funny. 15 more bowls of peanuts, please. It felt very much like this scene. They're writing to the village in good omens where the horsemen show up at a pub and death is already there playing the trivia game, the trivia like arcade machine. And we've already like commented how death feels like the same death in good omens as in Discworld. But now it seems like the horsemen all were fairly similar. So it seems very much like gaming must have read Discworld on like, oh, horseman or you've got this Terry. Right. How about it, and then just like did something else?

Tessa  1:21:49  
Well, this is not the last time we'll see the horsemen in fact, the horsemen have a much bigger role in a later book. So it'll be interesting to see because death basically kind of leaves them to their own devices. He's like, you'll figure it out. And the last time we see death is of course on top of the tower when he comes to take IPS floor finally I you know, I finally have you explored the red. So that's our final death sighting for this. Yeah.

Nigel  1:22:11  
Also, can I just say if so the red the most wizard name?

Tessa  1:22:16  
Oh, yes. 100%. Very wizard. Yeah, very Gandalf the Grey. So the first footnote that we get is on page eight of my addition, where they're describing the hat of the arched chancellor of the unseen University. It was pointy, of course with a wide floppy brim. But after disposing of these basic details, the designer had really got down to business. There was the gold lace on there and pearls and bans appears for mine and sparkling on stones, but no, like rhinestones but different river when it comes to glittering objects, wizards have all the taste and self control of a deranged magpie. So first of all, that of course, tells us that wizards really like opulent ways of dressing but it's another meta reference right to our world. Because the Rhine the river does not exist in the Discworld, but we're being given a reference to rhinestones from the Rhine. Nigel, what was your favorite footnote in this book,

Nigel  1:23:11  
the one about the study of genetics. So the study of genetics of the disc had failed in an early stage when wizards tried the experimental crossing of such well known objects as fruit flies and sweet peas. Unfortunately, they didn't quite grasp the fundamentals and the results and offspring a sort of green bean thing that buzz that is short, sad life before being eaten by a passing spider. I think that's really funny, because that's a reference to Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, who he study genetic distribution by looking at two examples. One are fruit flies and one of sweet peas. But I like the disco version of that as well. They just decided to study it by crossing them, which is like, one step away from what Mendel actually did. I don't know how familiar you are with men, like I just don't know what the American biology system is like. So I don't know whether they'd like focus on the laws of segregation and difference or whatever the fuck they're called.

Tessa  1:24:07  
I knew he was a eugenicist. So, you know, I'm writing about that currently in my dissertation. So that's that's primarily my focal point with Mendel. But yes, I am very aware of like the way he discovered genetics. It's funny because my favorite footnote also has to do with genetics. Because it's, it's not that one, but it's the one where they're talking about the inspiration like the sleet of inspiration through the universe and how it's very easy for it to hit the wrong head at the wrong time. And it reminded me a lot of well from Weird Sisters, and the way that he keeps getting the inspiration from different plays and different things and they're just slightly wrong. But in this one, it's the shape of DNA, it is popularly said owes its discovery to the chance side of a spiral staircase when the scientist mind was just at the right receptive temperature. Had he used the lift the whole science of genetics might might have been a good do different footnote, although possibly quicker and only licensed to carry 14 people. I don't know why that made me laugh the idea of instead of DNA being a helix, it's a lift. That's only licensed to carry 14 people. Yeah, but there you go. That's my favorite footnote. What's something that made you laugh out loud?

Nigel  1:25:22  
I think we're gonna have to go with the horsemen, the horsemen getting drunk. I just really like it's a funny portrayal of being drunk. Whereas like, the saref when he gets drunk, he's just because like a really creepy, pervy man, I don't like that. So as well, it was like, Well, you know, here's a fun like, they're having fun, which is really their rabble rousing their carousing. That's, you know, like, that's good. I like that.

Tessa  1:25:55  
Oh, yeah. Okay, so, war gets a Bloody Mary. Of course. Pestilence gets a small eggnog with a cherry in it, and death gets a port wine, and then famine gets peanuts. I laughed a lot during this book, but I loved the scene where carding and spelter are talking about the hat like making a new Arch she answers hat and how it just becomes the hat by virtue of it belonging to an arch Chancellor. And he says fundamental basis of Wizardry is that carding pause dramatically plumped the hat box and just Belters arms Cognitum Aragon Hatto, you might say, Spencer had made a special study of old languages and did his best, I think, therefore, I am a hat. If you've studied Descartes, which I have, and I disliked Descartes immensely, that's hilarious. I love the think, therefore I am hat. What is the thing that made you think in this

Nigel  1:26:49  
book? thing that made me think I'm going to go I was going to go with the wizards like, well, we want to, we don't know whether we wanted things changed, but maybe just moved around slightly. The first one, we're like, well, you can go and change these a whole bunch of things about your life, you know, you can go and dye your hair or give yourself bangs or get a tattoo, but it's not really going to address the real problem that's causing your real issue that's causing all your problems. No Is

Tessa  1:27:17  
it? I think, for me, it's when they're in the dungeon dimensions. And it's this really touching scene between coin and rinse wind coin did so on the hem of his robe. And that shook rinse wins hand solemnly, if you ever he began. That is you're the first. It's been a great. You see, I never really his voice trailed off. And then he said, I just wanted you to know that there was something else I was trying to say said rinse when letting go of the hand, he looked blank for a moment, and then added, oh, yes, it's vital to remember who you really are. It's very important. It isn't a good idea to rely on other people or things to do it for you. You see, they always get it wrong. And that kind of goes back to what we've been talking about during this whole episode. But it's this very touching moment where he basically tells Coyne like you have you have to make the decision of who you are yourself. You can't rely on other people to tell you who you are, which is, I think really great in terms of summing up maybe one of the major themes of this book. Yeah, that and the thing I read earlier about the wizards like if more powerful wizards couldn't do it, then why, why? How could I do it? I just think that that's such a great line. Someone's got to take a stand. Next episode. After seven books, we are finally going to return to the death series with Reaper man and our first foray into the 90s Discworld. Are you excited for Reaper man, Nigel?

Unknown Speaker  1:28:40  
I am. Who boy?

Tessa  1:28:44  
Where can people find you online and on their headphones?

Nigel  1:28:48  
Okay, so you can find my podcasts, archive admirers of hyper fixations wherever you get your podcasts. Also, you can listen to my production of A Christmas Carol on the lesbi honest feed, because that needed a place to go. And so that's there. That's in five parts. So you've got like three hours worth of content. We've got some really epic voice actors to come in and read the lines and then I edit it put in some like soundscaping and stuff. It's pretty good. I liked it. I had a lot of people tell me that it was good. It was my first ever attempt at audio production. Well, like I'm not skilled because I kind of did like a little thing before but not like an audio production anyway. And then you can also find me on Twitter at spicy Nigel where I've been tweeting about how hard this year has been already my big hair. And the fact that I've taught my puppy Willow how to hand over her paw on command. Now she's just doing it on her own. Tell her she'd like hands out her Paul just on her own. And she said she's

Unknown Speaker  1:29:53  
got a treat. That's what she's looking for. No, but

Nigel  1:29:57  
see, here's the thing we haven't incentivize With a treat at all, we've just got, like I did this. I trained her to do this and now everyone else in my family is benefiting from it. I just kept going, Paul, I like grabbing her paw, I would like pointed a tap at it, and I grabbed her paw and I would shake it I go Paul shake, and then I give her a lot of pets and tell her a good girl. So I gave her like positive affirmation, but now she's just doing she's just doing it. She'll come over and just like put her paw up on your leg, and then you have to go and shake it and she's getting more like handshakes and a politician out looking to be realized.

Tessa  1:30:36  
Nigel her incentivisation is your love.

Nigel  1:30:40  
She's a terror take him out.

Tessa  1:30:43  
I can vouch very much for the Christmas carol production which is wonderful. I can also very much vouch for the beauty of Nigel's very big hair on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter at suela. Tessa Swehla spelled SW e HLA and you could find me on my other podcast monkey off my backlog at monkey backlog. We just recently released an episode that is all about James Cameron. Very exciting stuff. You can find this podcast on Twitter at nannies bookclub. You can find us on Instagram at nanny OGS book club. Please rate review and subscribe on iTunes rate and follow us on Spotify. They have a new rating system on Spotify now it would mean a lot to us if you would go on there and give us a rating.

Nigel  1:31:28  
We need at least 10 For the average star rating to be shown so at least 10 of us have to do it. Come on guys, please.

Tessa  1:31:35  
Yes, please, please, please follow us on Stitcher, Amazon podcast, Google podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Nigel  1:31:44  
I will say just before this stay tuned to my Twitter for more upcoming podcast advancements. That's all Oh,

Tessa  1:31:52  
that's exciting, mysterious. Yes. Leave him wanting more. Nigel read us out.

Nigel  1:31:59  
The patrician sat by his window writing. His mind was full of fluff as far as the last week or two was concerned. And he didn't like that much. A servant had little lamp to dispel the Twilight and a few early evening moths were orbiting so the patrician watched them carefully. For some reason he felt very uneasy in the presence of glass but that as if you're staring fixedly at the insects wasn't what bothered him most. What bothered him was that he was fighting a terrible urge to catch them with his town, and waffles lay on his back in his master's feet and backed in his dreams. Lights were going on all over the city. But the last few seconds of Sunset illuminated the gargoyles as they helped to another up the long climb to the roof, the library and watch them from the open door while giving himself a philosophic scratch. Then he turned and shut out the night. It was warm in the library. It was always warm in the library because the scatter of magic that produces the glow also gently cooked the air. The librarian looked at his church as approvingly it as last rounds of the slumbering shelves, and then dragged his blanket underneath his desk in a good light banana and fell asleep. Silence gradually reclaimed the library. Silence drifted around the remains of a hash heavily battered and frayed and cherished around the edges that had been placed with some ceremony in a niche in the wall. No matter how far wizard goes he will always come back for his hash. Silence filled the university in the same way that air fills a whole night spread across the disk like plum jam, or possibly BlackBerry Preserve. But there would be a morning there would always be another morning. The End

Transcribed by https://otter.ai