#citizenweb3 Episode link: https://www.citizenweb3.com/regen-network-regeneration Episode name: Gregory Landua, blockchain & regeneration Episode transcript: hey it's citizen cosmos we're sergeant anna and we discover cosmos by chatting with awesome people from various team within the cosmos ecosystem and the community join us if you're curious how dreams and ambitions become code hi everyone and welcome to citizen cosmos and we are glad to have gregory landoy and i hope of pronouncing that right with us today gregory is the co-founder and co-chief regeneration officer and he's going to tell us all about what that means of region network he's also the co-founder and the ceo of terra genesis international co-author of regenerative enterprises a regenerative agriculture practitioner and a farmer and i'm having a hard time here i'm really sorry gregory if i got that really wrong i'm gonna go to you and ask you to help me out a little bit tell me what does all of that mean all this regeneration thing and the regeneration officer i'm just gonna let you speak yeah serge anna it's great to be on the show um thanks for doing this for the whole community yeah what the heck is regeneration and why do we why did i use it in all of my titles of everything oh my gosh so what regeneration means to me you could sort of you can think of it in a couple of different ways one way is sort of thinking about life itself and you know what does it mean to engage in life and business and our economy in such a way that actually improves the evolutionary viability and the vitality of animals and plants and humans and other businesses and the ecosystem at large which i think is really resonant with the way that i see the best way that i see sort of the cooperation of open source distributed decentralized movements like cosmos operating there's a kernel of regenerative potential there which is regeneration is intrinsic in life and so i'm an ecologist i'm always thinking about these sort of metaphors and and mimicking the what we see in the natural world and so commonly misunderstood attributes of evolution like herbert spencer and you know social darwinism and all of these things where people are saying oh it's survival of the fittest and you know red and tooth and claw and but actually if you look at the biology and you look at the ecology the species that tend to survive aren't the fittest in that classical definition of like the most competitive they're the species that the most other species depend on the more other entities that depend on a tree or depend on an animal the more likely they are to over time continue to survive and so there's this larger system and we as organisms we as individuals we as businesses are nested within those systems and what regeneration means to me is in a way it's idealism but in a way it's pragmatism in a way it's just sort of asking what does it take to be a business to be an enterprise that serves the vitality and viability of other stakeholders and therefore is able to co-regenerate through time and and so that's one way of talking about it another way that i just want to you know make sure is grounded for guests is around our mission at region network which is really around focusing on what i would call the restorative and regenerative potential of nature of agriculture of forests of oceans to solve almost every single societal and economic problem we face climate change pollution health issues pandemics they all come from a common source which is degradation and extraction and externalization of costs in such a way that the system is less strong and less vital and less vibrant and in this sort of soliloquy or monologue with the last bit of this which is region network is really aiming to use mechanism design to create new games new economic games in which multiple stakeholders who are sourcing livelihood food fuel fodder life all of you know vocations from landscapes which is the classical commons in such a way that regenerates those commons through the exchange instead of degrading them right and so we want to break people out of the standard prisoner's dilemma and that is totally possible it's completely achievable but it's a real it's a mechanism design challenge and that's why regent network is so passionate and excited about distributed technology proof of stake networks and and other forms of creating consensus because that creates the building block for us to engage in mechanism design around commons management new markets and all of these things that we believe actually transform the relationship between the human economy and the greater than human economy which is our living world it's interesting that you sailed it because lately i've been hearing like all around the space uh not just blockchain space i mean generally a lot of people talking about comparing blockchain to a living organism whether this is like mycelium comparing blockchain to forests i personally love the comparison to mycelium because i think it's amazing how similar those things are and it's really interesting that you said it and i'm really excited to be honest with you because this is two of my favorite topics blockchain and ecology a little bit before we go forward can you speak a little bit more about region network and its mission because you mentioned it a few times while you were saying what regeneration is so and i think a lot of people are confused as to what you guys do and i think maybe you can describe it well apologies for for the confusion i mean i think part of that is because it's always hard you know at what level you speak to maybe sometimes we're speaking about the world that we're we're trying to create together and in other times we're speaking about a very practical value proposition where it's like here's our users and here's what we're trying to build right now whereas you know here's the future that we're trying to create right so i'll start with the very concrete value proposition that we're working on right now i'll sort of try to create a stack of first here and then there you know like what's our immediate go to market strategy and how does that relate to the blockchain and who are users and then you know like what comes next in layers so our immediate go to market strategy at region network really is focused on new class of payment for ecosystem services ecosystem services right now are carbon credits payment for water quality biodiversity there's a number of different things that currently companies governments and individuals actually participate in markets to pay for previously externalized costs because they get the benefits of those services those ecosystem services and it's somewhere depending on who you ask between 40 and 200 billion dollars a year of industry and it is estimated that that industry is estimated to move upwards to at least one trillion dollars a year in the next 10 years as paris climate agreement corporate repeat corporations and municipalities are taking all this very seriously there's been quantified risk associated with actuary tables of insurance companies around climate change like business people are taking it seriously and they understand that they have to incorporate environmental risks into their balance sheet our go-to-market strategy is to provide superior you know you might say fintech eco-fintech services where we overcome some of the existing double counting problems some of the existing verification issues by using a distributed public ledger using public proof of stake blockchain in which these digital assets that represent living assets like the state of a forest the health of soil can be easily audited by all parties and exchange you know in the in the coming inter-blockchain world between different registry systems without having double counting so we're very focused on just providing that value for an existing marketplace that needs that value you address to the one of the biggest problem for the modern society is the problem of external effects yeah you try to measure it in a proper way and you understand the economic game behind it and using blockchain you can solve this problem it's quite interesting because it's in traditional new institutional economy we tend to say that it's okay it's kind of problem but we don't know how to solve it yeah until recently is it economic game behind it so is it something that you think will help us or some kind of people we need to uh push them to change this old system to the new way to do this that's a great question and so i think that's where you know maybe that's the next layer in our value proposition which is asking the question how do you actually transform the game so i when i was talking about our go-to-market strategy i'm talking about okay there's this existing market we can build something that's incrementally better and we can compete in that existing market providing this you know new service that's unlocked by blockchain technology and then and what you're asking is really about you know okay but how do we transform the system itself our core hypothesis here is that what we need in order to transform the system is information parity currently the reason that it costs can be externalized i don't know how many of your listeners or or if you are aware of the fact that exxon a clear understanding of climate change created by their own science team in like 1971 they hid that information from the public instead of revealing that information and changing their business model and so there's a perverse incentive that's bad market dynamics it's bad for them they're going to bear the brunt they optimize for short-term profit at the expense of that business's long-term viability as an energy producer as well as at the expense of massive economic and ecological catastrophe for many different people so they made a very bad choice and that choice was made possible by a lack of information parity so a lack of ability of the market to have real information signals to appropriately price for instance gasoline versus other things how do you transform a market to me it's all about the right information signaling and so how do we realign the economics of agriculture the economics of land use the economics of energy in such a way to have the appropriate price signaling and the appropriate commons management integration with our economy to me it's all about information integrity data integrity various mechanisms for data quality we see the exact same game theoretic and economic scenarios playing themselves out it with the surveillance capitalist business model and google and facebook it's the exact same scenario of optimizing short-term economic gain at the expense of trust at the expense of societal integrity at the offense of truth in some way and so there's a need to sort of like realign incentives and create the appropriate like mix of what is private and what is public and how do you create the right market conditions so so that that balance is appropriate and in our case we want to make ecological state information so ubiquitously available and cheap that markets can appropriately internalize the signals around ecological regeneration versus ecological degradation in business decisions at zero marginal cost i'm happy for myself because i understood understood region network correctly i'm gonna say hooray because it's a complicated explanation and i love it because it's a very good explanation and it definitely gives me much more insight than i had before now the question i have and i think most of people will who listen to this will ask the same question how on earth does one proved to someone the current state of the forest using data and so on and so forth or maybe not a forest or maybe the current state of the soil on this particular piece of land i mean how does one understand the value of this particular piece of soil or the state of that particular piece of land and exchange it with someone else probably obviously in a trustless way well i mean i think there's multiple ways to answer this and so it's going to be another complex answer the most important thing here is essentially good science and good science is not objective it's intersubjective ecological science is not deterministic it's probabilistic there is no way where you have an any kind of iron clad there is x units of carbon in this soil or in this forest in a deterministic way this isn't the bitcoin blockchain this isn't just math this is the real world and the real world is quantum and probabilistic and so what is important and the value proposition here is the foundation is who said what about where when what data did they use what methodologies did they use and is the data that they used to make a claim available or not is the methodology that they used available or not and who else has who else is using that methodology and can you create a you know can you rate the quality of the data etc so that the uncertainty again can be appropriately priced in to the value of the asset okay so that's the foundation the foundation is not a system in which we're trying to make a deterministic claim around the state of an ecosystem that leads to a quantified or empirical claim about the units of value that are somehow fungible in the in the market the foundation is to create information parity around the methodology the data and ecological asset so that the market can appropriately price in the risk of the claim in a really quick and easy way so that's the foundation right that we're building on now i'll actually answer what does it look like to do that well to build a best-in-class digital asset that represents ecological value that can be traded or accounted for in some way like how can you prove the health of a forest okay well that one's actually quite easy to be able to prove the health of the forest you know you have tools such as satellite imagery those tools you can pull satellite imagery from publicly available repositories we have sentinel-2 sentinel one from the copernicus program of the european space agency we have landsat from nasa those are three large data sets that are publicly available you also have privately available a growing crazy amount of privately available satellite information all of our assumptions about how to verify the state of an ecosystem are again about inter-subjective correlative claims if you want a more rigorous claim about the state of an ecosystem you probably want multiple different ways of claiming it you you don't want to pull satellite information from the european space agency as well as you know nasa if you want to be really rigorous you want some third party verifier who has a bond that could be slashed to go take a smartphone photo and fly a drone okay then you have this information multi-spectral imagery gives you clear information about the ecosystem type you know and all this other historical information you can then correlate that essentially to either empirical models or process based models or you can actually go out and quantify in person in situ there's all these different scientific methods to then quantify particular pieces right so either you correlate that and you say for instance we have this we have three claims we have three matching attestations from three different uncorrelated satellite providers that that forest in the amazon is there and it's been there for this long and we know that's true and we have these two methodologies that were independently developed that give us indicators based on a similar forest type of biodiversity and carbon that is essentially how you create a quantifiable claim about ecosystem service and what we're doing which is crazy to me that it's radical because it just makes sense we're just creating a distributed ledger that essentially replicates in in essence the healthiest expression of the scientific process where all of those statements are made and they can be fact checked and they can be audited by anyone who would like and that's what region ledger makes possible in the translation of physical natural capital asset to a digital representation of that asset that can become tradable or fungible hey who's that this is ob he just brought me some hot chocolate hey ob hey so yummy thank you i must admit i'm still a bit concerned as to how the market is gonna decide on probabilistic value for for certain assets but i think this is like a really long long debate that we can have here well let's talk about that for a second let's talk about how the market currently approaches that so currently what happens is did the right expert organization sign off that this is good so if the un triple c or the or ipcc or or a third party organization that's a business like vera this is how things work currently in most things right it's like did this big centralized body sign off on it so our system that is completely backwards compatible right you can completely have a scenario in which an asset is checked off by some sort of like trusted party but you can also go further and you can say in addition to it being checked off here you can see these following attributes and you know here's the the data and the algorithm and the you know these other pieces i believe that the market over time is going to mature so that assets that have the optimal public facing transparency that can be machine audited will be the most competitive because you reduce the marginal cost to to evaluate the the risk of a claim to next to zero but in the short term they're still going to need to be backwards compatibility and you're still going to need assets to be you know reviewed by some trusted party and that's where you can easily be sort of seeing that you can integrate things like curation registries and their different identities in the system and have they signed off on that asset or not you know we're building all of that scaffolding out because that's what people need right now but in the long term i do pretty firmly believe that a system is is incapable of dealing with the complexity of reality because there's perverse incentives and we see those perverse incentives and people no longer trust institutions because of the that variety of different scenarios and so we have to be forward forward-looking and we have to be asking how will the market be uh valuing truthiness or you know integrity in the future and that's through this sort of more radical transparency about certain elements you know it's trustless that who said what about where when that's the important piece now rating that and correlating it with things that's a you may have prediction markets you may have all sorts of different an ecosystem of different ways that people will approach that but the foundation is that the appropriate information is able to be provided to underpin the value of an asset so when we speaking about short-term and long-term perspective what is the minimum number of users that we need to overcome that limit then everyone think in their opportunistic way in short-term period that's a great question i mean and that's a that's one for the ages i think i don't know if you all are familiar if your listeners are familiar with sort of like game b theory in couple words yeah you can explain it i think it's easy so game a is sort of this uh competitive short-term thinking marketplace driven world we exist in and when when was that world first born who knows you know was it 10 000 years ago with the rise of agriculture or was it 200 years ago with the rise of the joint stock company who who knows anyway we have a texture of it we live it we live in a world in which it's usually better to take the short-term gain option if you're just thinking about your own selfish interest but we also can see how how that actually doesn't really work because those people there's costs that are accrued okay so game b is the idea that there is actually that it's more competitive to be sort of like to have the appropriate reciprocity in a system over a long term so game a game b in order for game b to work it actually needs to like out compete game a and the way that it does that is it needs to attract more creativity more productivity and more vibrancy in a societal way where it kind of can then sort of like extract value from game a and turn it into good things okay so there's a constant conversation in this community that sort of frames things as game a and game b about what's the tipping point how many people need to be engaged in a game beast style how many companies how many individuals maybe even countries in order for the system to actually shift right which is is me just sort of reframing your initial question i would guess it needs to be somewhere around two percent of the population of the planet is that number based on something or is that just like why two percent why not 42. yeah it's based on different research around societal like big societal changes and i'm sorry i can't quote the actual resources these studies that have been done around societal change when a norm radically changes one way or the other how many active people in a society need to actually be sort of like bought into something and it's somewhere less than four percent that need to be actively participating and or and or not even necessarily active but sympathetic even right just adjacent to and willing to sort of like be like no i actually believe that i actually believe those sorts of things do i believe that we can get one percent two percent three percent four percent of companies and individuals to essentially engage with this new economy based on sort of like climate forward and ecosystem ecological health forward thinking yes in fact i would argue that we're we're basically already there but that community needs tools to succeed and so we're actually serving existing user set this is what i think is very different from region network and many other crypto projects as we're very clear like we have existing users in existing companies and existing governmental agencies there's actually people who need the transformative tool that we're building we have dialogues with them we have partnerships with them they're not just like oh build it and they will come it's like they're real people who need this right now and my guess is we're already over the tipping point to be honest this is awesome i love this i love to hear this and this thing it's awesome to see that we have well at least a few projects that solving something real in cosmos and this is where i actually want to come to customers because i think it's a really good intro to to what region network does so how did you guys choose cosmos how did you choose cosmos proof of stake i mean i read it on your [ __ ] obviously on the website why you didn't choose eos and all that but i don't think it's it should even be a question why you didn't choose use sorry to use lovers but that's life so how did you come to choose cosmos we started in 2017 so i guess in crypto dog years that's like 100 years old or something like that maybe not that old but and at that point tendermint was out right as as a core piece of technology we knew very early on that we we weren't willing to deal with ethereum although we i love the community and the avant-gardeness and all of the different things but we just essentially were not willing to engage with what we thought were sort of type one errors with technology design there so we assumed in 2017 we were gonna have to build it from the ground up a full layer one all the way to the end application solution and one thing we didn't want to have to build was a consensus engine and so we were like okay well we'll grab tendermint and we'll build everything else and that's what was in our white paper essentially was our and our system architecture paper which described our approach to building technology and what we would do differently which i think interestingly enough has played out leading layer one solutions have sort of like convened on essentially the roadmap that we set out ourselves which i don't think they like read it and stole it i just think that's like good thinking it's like people are sort of like starting to form consensus around what's going to work at least in some way your listeners are noticing and you're noticing our value proposition is kind of complex we're like people on the impact and climate investment space think we're crazy because we're crypto project and crypto people think we're crazy because we're like environmentalists or something and they're like there's no business in that and so we've had to build our community in a very slow methodical way and there was no big ico moment and we have we've been slow to fundraise we've just sort of continued to just like slowly build community and product and relationships so therefore the cosmos sdk caught up with us essentially we we converged and then we we took the cosmos sdk and we said this is fantastic you know maybe there's a bunch of things we don't have to do we'll use the proof-of-stake mechanisms and we'll do these other things and we'll sort of launch in that way we'll make some additions etc etc and then because we sort of have users in a use case and we're saying hey wait key management no no no this isn't built in the way that we're going to be able to achieve what we need with our users oh hey wait there's all these issues with the sdk so then we started working on those issues and we started sort of like creating a backlog and doing pull requests and then doing some contracting work and then eventually you know push comes to shove and this that and the other and ecosystem realignment and etc and you know and now regen network i think is playing a substantial role in actually maintainership and forwarding the sdk itself essentially according to the uses the the the user needs that we ourselves had for the sdk pushed us to propose many things which i think is a really cool thing about why the cosmos ecosystem is going to be such a force in the crypto community is that as different projects pick up the tool and they say wait a second in order for this to really work for our sovereign domain specific community this has to be true and then you like recursively go back down the layers and you say what needs to be true for us to get this functionality and then you you create pull requests and you cooperate and you think things through and then you build something that's better and then you get up to your solution and i think soon we're going to have a modular ecosystem and in the next year or so we're going to have a very powerful modular ecosystem in which the community that comes next the projects like we were very early in the ecosystem and we just sort of like rolled our sleeves up and got to work even though it wasn't necessarily our end use case we just felt like these things have to be true for our value proposition to happen in the right way so just roll our sleeves up and we'll dig in and we'll start working on it and a lot of groups have done that it's not just region network and that's a beautiful thing about cosmos and the projects that come later the next generations of projects are going to benefit from that and the marginal cost of deploying a sovereign blockchain zone to meet user needs is going to come down and down and down and down until the point where it will just be simply deployable in the state that can meet user needs with some good user-centered design and some good integrations with existing technology and i'm super excited for the ecosystem to be moving towards that i still think we're probably about 18 months or two years from that moment to be honest so are we still in game a in terms of cosmos well i would frame to move back to that framing i think cosmos is an example of a proto-b community we still engage many of us in different ways with game a and maybe some community members are all the way game a and some are further along the spectrum and whatever but as a community there's cooperation there's a different culture and a different ethos that's emerged and i think there's mutualism and incentive alignment and we're we're answering really important questions about governance sometimes we reinvent the wheel sometimes we don't you know so i think we we're like a proto-b community in terms of just the practicality of like where we're at technologically speaking i think teams that are coming in right now um are gonna benefit a lot from a lot of heavy lifting that our team and others have done and i think in the next six months eight months it's like every there's like a happening taking place in that like every six months i think it's going to get twice as easy essentially for new groups to come in and leverage the technology basically makes sense i just want to say that changing the game it's not the just point it's kind of a process so we cannot just change the game in one moment and in cosmos we can see that we are in the middle of changing and transformation process let's get to some personal questions if you don't mind here a little bit about you because a lot of the idea of our podcast is to get to know the person behind the project a little bit and if you feel like they're a bit personal one thing a bit obvious for me about what you do like you personally nothing to do with regional network that something is wrong with the planet and it needs a change i was very young i mean i remember a couple of key moments i grew up in alaska that's cool yeah it's beautiful i mean i miss it all the time but it's a beautiful place so um in growing up i i sort of played every different role in the salmon fishery there you know as a fisherman i i worked for the department of fish and game i worked for a local community science group that was doing things all these different roles i sort of got to see this resource extraction from growing up all the way through and then college i studied environmental science and you know ecology and other things i continued to work in that sort of work around different things and i just have to say like that our fishery in alaska is considered to be one of the best managed natural resources in the world and it's crazy how bad it is that was always how i i just was like what a mess this is crazy it could be so much easier than that right and so i just i think i just got a real sense of like all of these different roles in an ecosystem and how we could if we rewrote the game if we chose to rewrite the game we were playing we would have such radically better outcomes for all of the players instead of every player trying to just win the existing game i became very passionate about what does it look like to rewrite the game itself what does that look like yeah that's really cool i like that when you say that the fishery was a mess what do you mean by that that's quite interesting i mean at least to me i mean i don't know what it means in terms was it like badly treated the animals or was well no i mean the fishery is sustainable so they don't overfish it but they're all these little ways that there's still the game that's played people like it's the choices that were made in that fishery to manage that common resource and it is it's a classical commons management example market-based mechanisms for instance there's a limited number of um licenses for fishermen there's a a bidding and lottery system to give out you know any excess licenses and you can sell your license to someone else so there's essentially a licensed market so i as a fisherman can sell my license privately to somebody else then they have the you know but there's only x number of those and if you come in and you don't have a license either the government will catch you or the fishermen who like have their licenses they're not going to put up with that like nobody you don't just show up they're alaskans like alaskans are like texans squared you know it's probably a lot like siberia russia these are hard people who grew up in a cold place with lots of guns you don't mess go mess with people's livelihoods so anyway lots of guns and loads of alcohol yeah i like that exactly it's just that way but it fundamentally the way that it's managed it sends all these fishermen salmon i don't know if you know anything about salmon fishing but all of the salmon are coming back to the same river every year but in order to manage so that people compete in such a way to make the relative cost of getting those salmon high enough that not everybody wants to do it they we send the fleet out to sea to go catch the salmon out in the ocean instead of catching them in the river where they come back because we can't change the game such that we can create a game to to manage the resource so to not extract it and i always thought that was crazy the salmon are all coming to the river wouldn't you rather just throw a party like the native american people used to do catch a certain amount of the salmon right in the mouth of the river and create a whatever other mechanisms to distribute that resource market mechanisms or otherwise does it just makes more sense to me why waste all of this diesel fuel and danger everybody's got to go out into the ocean it's very romantic and rugged and individualist and it's the american way and all this stuff whatever but i always thought it was [ __ ] insane right all the salmon you know where they're coming all you have to do is agree within a group of people to create a game that distributes that resource and respects its renewability through time that seems to me like a not that hard a problem to solve so i always thought it was crazy to send all of these fishermen out and i was a fisherman for several years and i loved it it was very romantic it's lovely but it's insane it's an insane waste of energy essentially yeah that's crazy i must admit i'm not a big fisherman i've been fishing before many times but definitely the way i always perceived it is more of something that um connects a person to the nature and and not about you know all the diesel and all those licensing like in my head when you say that it's a little bit creates this bureaucratic kind of mess do you know what i mean i don't know how to explain that so i understand what you're saying back to you you're a farmer right now right as far as i understand and um that's what i read somewhere on you by you still farm right so i garden i have a nice little garden and i'm a co-owner of a pretty large cacao cocoa uh chocolate farm that also does sort of dynamic agroforestry uh you know we grow plantains and bananas and avocados and citruses and yucca cassava and all sorts of things very diversified farms so i currently you know especially due to covet i haven't been able to visit that in a little while that that farm is in ecuador and part of a community that i've been um engaged with for quite some time about 10 years or so that's when i reference my sort of farming i'm really more of an a tropical agroforester and at this point really just more of a shareholder in a tropical agroforestry farm i'm not currently day-to-day farming right that's that's really cool can i ask about avocado yeah avocado question uh is it really so bad to eat avocado because i know that it's a water problem and the people just have to bring a lot of water to help growing avocados so buying avocado in the average supermarket it's considered some kind of big thing now because this action can kill a lot of the natural trees in the area that avocado growing up is that true that's a good question it's all dependent so you could grow avocados in a really beautiful way and this is kind of what we're about at region network just to summarize and i'll have to wrap after this you can do any kind of agriculture in a beautiful regenerative way and in a really poor degenerative way and so avocados can be grown and generally are in a way that is maximizing short-term yield and cutting down other forests and pumping out water from aquifers and just sending lots of chemical sort of grown avocados up to the supermarket or they can be grown as a more diversified agro-ecosystem that doesn't extract water and that depends on where you grow it how you grow it and many other things the big question for me is can a consumer discern between an avocado that's grown in a really great way that's you know really regenerative or not and i believe that most consumers would value the delicacy of a really well-grown avocado over an avocado that they knew was polluting water and degrading communities and probably would choose not to eat an avocado and they would just enjoy a really good avocado every once in a while because you know my sense of people is that in general people tend to make good decisions you know and i'm a very much not a like economic determinist in this way i think people actually are pretty usually you know if they have all the information they usually make good good decisions for themselves their families the communities and the planet and it's when we don't have access to information that's the problem so the fact that you can't tell if your avocado is grown regeneratively and organically or if it was chemically and etc and you just have to sort of like generalize and all avocados are not created equal that's that's how i'll conclude and i hope that in a couple of years we'll be able to provide some support for consumers everywhere to know if their avocado was grown in in a good way and is worth the money or not yeah cool cool yeah it's a good conclusion i like it and it's it's really great i said it like probably twice i think throughout the podcast already but but i'm really glad to see that cosmos has projects that solve real problems and not you know problems that are just exist only online or exist maybe in somebody's head and and i'm really glad to see that once again people that do that are really passionate about it and not generate problem before solving it yeah that's another that's another reason that's true another story that's another thing yeah thanks for coming on gregory i was just agreeing i think that's great and i would count your project amongst those that i'm excited to see and continue to to see you guys do good work and it and that also is solving a very real problem i'm excited to see what decentralized search and information curation looks like and i think it's really important and there's a lot of parallels as you said around how we do sense making and you know what the economics of that looks like so i'm excited and i look forward to being connected to you all and thanks for providing the service to the community of hosting these conversations yeah thanks for coming on thanks everybody for listening and join us next time to for citizen customers with the masterminds behind the ecosystem thanks and bye thank you bye