Augusta DellÕOmo: Welcome to Right Rising, a podcast from the Center for Analysis of the Radical Right. I'm your host Augusta DellÕOmo. Today I'm joined by Max Kreter, a doctoral candidate at the Hannah Arendt Institute for Totalitarianism Studies at TU Dresden. He's here with us today to talk through some preliminary results from a report from the Counter Extremism Project on the Financing and Funding of the Extreme Right, Max, thanks so much for being here.

Maximilian Kreter: Thanks for having me here.

AD: So Max, let's start off with the big question. What sources and strategies of funding and financing can the extreme right drawn and I know you particularly work in a sort of German but also transnational context?

MK: Yeah, thanks for the question the Financing of the violence oriented extreme right organizations and actors in Germany and also transnationally is diverse. The spectrum of financial strategy ranges from minimal incomes, from blood donations to mail-order, business and international music festivals, some of which are said to have generated sales in the millions and profits in the hundreds or 1000s euro. Financing respectively, the funding options can be subdivided in six largest strategy pillars. The first strategy pillar relies on the self-financing from income from unseen or movement related deployment, as well as the nation's by adherence. Second pillar and capacity organization of concerts and music festivals with white power music groups. The event range from small scale events with 50 attendees up to large festivals with 6000. The third pillar is closely linked to the music business as well. Running music labels, retail shops, or mail order businesses, where movement entrepreneurs sell everything an extreme right activists needs to equip one's own extreme right lifeworlds. The fourth one is the organization of martial arts events. It's nearly the same way the white pop music businesses run. The fifth one is the real estate business which is closely linked to those pillars because event business, legally and specially security properties enable sustainable value creation and make it easier to hold these events. Last but not least, the sixth and last pillar is organized crime such as drug trafficking or prostitution, even though it contradicts the ideology. Formerly in Germany, it was also party funding, but this has declined.

AD: Thanks for that Max. I'll say from my research as a historian, I've heard of white power groups using all of these different methods, whether it's organized crime or music, but I'd like for you to talk a little bit about which financial sources you would say from this report and your own research are the most reliable and the most profitable.

MK: The most profitable sources are big, wide power music festivals declared and registered under the federal and regional assembly act, in short, by not declaring the commercial event, they can declare entrance fees as donations, so in many cases, they are not taxed. But as this approach is legally challengeable, the mail-order business is the most stable and secure source of money. So overall, it's the white power music business that keeps the extreme movement capable of acting.
AD: And do different groups have any sort of have particular specialty - do some organizations really just rely on, for instance, white power music, or some very involved in organized crime, or would you say that these groups often pull from multiple funding sources?

MK: Yes, they often have multiple sources of funding. But it's often white power music that forms the core of this business, except for the One or Another organizations, for example, as to honan, recently in Terranea, their core business was drug trafficking and prostitution, close to where they held white power music events.

AD: So it sounds like from what you're saying that a lot of these funding sources, whether directly or indirectly, really revolve around the white power music scene. And I'll say that my experience is a US researcher of the far right that white power music, particularly in the 80s was was a huge element of the sort of Aryan right. And I really like you to talk about why is this such a popular source? It's something that I think a lot of us anecdotally know but what is it about the white power music scene that is so central to their fundraising and financing efforts?

MK: White power music is a popular source because it combines many useful functions for the white power music scene and the extreme right movement. As a whole, apart from the financial aspect, for example, the music and the scene creates a feeling of belonging helps to build networks in and around the scene. Plus, it helps to spread propaganda in other ways parties and social movements are able to. Furthermore, it's also helps to provide social and political affirmation. And it stretched the ties between the actors. It's a really useful source to have to generate.

AD: And would you say, Max that there's how many of these groups are we talking about in terms of like bands and participants when you were conducting this study? What kind of numbers are we talking about, just to give us a little bit of perspective about how big these this music scene actually is?

MK: The number of bands in Germany varies a lot . In the early 90s, it's there were only 20 to 30 bands. And when it peaked in the mid 2000s, there were around 180, 190 bands, and the organization's it's mainly Blood & Honour, Hammerskins, Combat 18 and and also smaller, so called Brotherhood's, they are like acting like motorcycle gangs.

AD: And for these for these groups is there I know the stereotype of what the sort of white power music sounds like, Is that an accurate you know, sort of a very hard rock vibe? Or is there a genre differential within white power of music about the kinds of music that you would maybe hear at these white power music festivals? Or events?

MK: Yes, I think the stereotype still, the white power music scene still consists of about 70 to 80 percent of classic white power music bands just like Skrewdriver, Landser or more of this type. But there's also a differentiation between hardcore, black metal, and also rap but less than 30%. And I think 10%, hardcore 10% black metal, and the rest is really minimal.

AD: And so moving away from the bands itself, could you talk about the sort of business in the central actors in the central business areas that are really providing the the financial backbone for these white power music groups?

MK: Yeah, the structure of the white power music is dominated by movement entrepreneur, whose entire life politically, socially and economically off by and for the scene and for  the movements, they're often involved since years or even decades, and thereby have a lot of professional knowledge. And they're often charismatic leaders. But they are often also linked to larger organizations like Blood & Honor, Combat 18 and the Hammerskins, because they give them the credibility and the back the background they need.

AD: So Max, could you walk us through the structure a little bit of what this concert business looks like? So what would a what would a typical event or what typical types of events do these white power groups? And these these business organizations that back them? What do they put on? What do they look like?

MK: I found out that there are mainly four types of concerts, the smaller ones with up to 50 visitors, mostly Acoustic Singer-Songwriter evenings, an entrance fee for about five to 10 euros. Then there's the smaller events with up to 120, 150 people mostly organized in conspiracy. Same counts for the large events with 200 to 250 people. And the last type and the most important one, are bigger festivals with 500 to 6000 visitors because they generate the money

AD: And Max, you mentioned one of the impetus is to put on these concerts is it creates these feelings of solidarity amongst the attendees, which in many cases is not different than large scale music festivals that regular people go to so could you talk a little bit about who is going to these events? And what are the kinds of emotions feelings what solidarity does it elicit for the people that attend these white power music festivals while they're there? And how do these networks really perpetuate in these spaces?

MK: The typical visitor of white power music festival is between 25 and 55. But it's it's getting older. And these, in most cases male, not female. And he's going there with his friends or his comrades, he's going there because he wants to experience as you said, the same feelings as the music on the music festival, experiencing a weekend among comrades. And especially though, during the concerts, there's a special kind of atmosphere because they are organized in conspiracy. And you don't have access, if you don't know the people in the scene or in the movement.

AD: That's this really interesting that it is a closed network in some spaces of people who have access to these kinds of events. I think my assumption would have been that they were public. But I guess thinking about this as a enclosed space also reifies that really personal, as you said, weekend with the comrades that it's only the people that are part of that group that are really going to be participating?

MK: Yeah, it's some some of the events are public, but it's mostly for the festivals. But the smaller events, especially when you have groups from abroad, for example, Australia, US is a most mostly closed events, because they really want to be sure that no spies are present.

AD: And are these music festivals becoming more global and more transnational? And one of the big trends that a lot of us have noted at CARR is just the globalization of the far right. So I know that the music industry is quite a global business now with streaming and concerts as a big money making enterprises for these international groups. But are the white power music scenes becoming more globalized as well?

MK: Yes, definitely. For example, a few years, or decades ago, you could not have imagined a white power music festival with bands from five or six countries. A maximum of one or two bands from abroad was a realistic scenario. But nowadays, it's no problem. And it's really appreciated by the visitors, because especially the bands from Australia, US or UK did not play live for many years in Germany. 

AD: If we turn to the backbone of what is supporting this white power music industry, you mentioned a little bit at the beginning record labels and mail order businesses, do these kinds of different white power revenue streams intersect with the concert business and the extreme right movement?

MK: Yes, definitely. In many cases, concert organizers are also movement entrepreneur that organized concerts. They are linked with parties, for example, the NPD, the National Democratic Party, or other smaller, extreme right parties. So the links to the movement and to the scene are very, very close.

AD: And Max, I wanted to ask you, just as we're wrapping up, how should we think about countermeasures for this kind of far right financing. We've had a few people on the podcast talking about de-platforming, and also particularly countering the ability of extreme far right groups fundraising ability online. But it's interesting that as a concert business, this is a whole different ballgame of what it would look like to actually counter this kind of fundraising. So what countermeasures have you seen to be effective? Or which sort of new avenues are we considering to kind of cut off these revenue streams?

MK: Yeah, that's quite a different difficult question, because it always depends on which kind of concert you're talking about. But in general, there's the legal, the civic and the administrative approach, I would definitely prefer a combination of the legal and the civic approach to come at them. The tools we already have, because the administrative approach is normally used to fight organized crime. And it's not the way you should counter concerts or events like this, but stay on the legal or civic paths, and you will get them in the long in the long run, if you need to get them in the short run. The administrative approach definitely works. But it's critical to to use it.

AD: And for our listeners who may not be as familiar with these three approaches. What exactly is the legal, the Civic, and the administrative approach?

MK: Legal approach is basically the criminal using the criminal codes if they violate the rules or the laws. This codes, they can be brought to court and the event is interrupted, or even dissolved. The Civic approach includes measures such as demonstration and providing knowledge via science. While the administrative approach includes checks for how clean is the bar, or did they pay their taxes just in time, such things go with the administrative approach.

AD: That makes a lot of sense, Max. And I think one of the really interesting elements about the civic approach is I think it also dovetails with a lot of the really interesting work coming out, particularly in the US about how to prevent radicalization of younger people. And I imagine that the music white power music is a way that sort of younger, younger people might get into white supremacist or extreme right movements by listening to and consuming this type of music. So the civic approach to me seems to offer ways for us to think about how should we actually combat this kind of music activism in our own personal spaces, whether it's within our communities or within families.

MK: I think white power music can be a factor in the process of radicalization, but especially in Germany, the hypothesis of the gateway drug was discussed, but it's not. It was more a reproduction of the narrative of the extreme right. So if you listen to music, you're becoming an extreme right activist. But if you do not think that way politically, it's not that problematic. But it's definitely or should definitely be part of prevention programs to, to, to the have a closer look at these white power music bands, and especially those in the gray zone, who are not obviously political, political, but we're transporting a similar message.

AD: Awesome. Well, Max, thank you so much for being here and for joining us in the podcast. For our listeners who maybe want to hear more about this research or read more from you. Where can they find out more about you or even read the report once it's publicly available? 

MK: The report will be available in German and English via CEP, on their homepage and my publications are listed listed on my profile at the website of the Hannah Arendt Institute. So everybody's free to contact me. If you want to read something. I will definitely send it 

AD: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here, Max. 

MK: Thank you. 

AD: This has been another episode of Right Rising. We'll see you next time.