Augusta DellÕOmo: Welcome to Right Rising, a podcast from the Center for the Analysis of the Radical Right. I'm your host Augusta DellÕOmo. Today I'm joined by Dr. Megan Squire, a Professor of Computer Science at Elon University. She's here with us today to talk to us about how white nationalists are using video streaming to make money. Megan, thanks for being here.

Megan Squire: My pleasure.

AD: So I wanted to start off for those that are not super familiar with video streaming, what is video streaming? What are the main sites and what are they traditionally use for?

MS: Yeah, so video streaming is kind of a new add on to social media platforms. That would be where you would have traditionally just watched a video, maybe it's canned, maybe it's recorded several days or months ago, years ago. Now you can watch those videos live as the content creators make them. Sometimes they have additional features too like chatting to the person making the video. So there's a little bit of interplay there, which you wouldn't get in a canned prerecorded video, you can see stuff like that these live videos on Facebook and YouTube. But they're increasingly also shown on smaller, more niche platforms. So Twitch is a popular one with gaming communities and kind of a younger crowd. And one that I have my eye on is called DLive, which is a distributed live video streaming service. It uses a cryptocurrency underneath as well.

AD: And for most of the I'm familiar with Twitch as a gaming platform who is, what is, DLiveÕs like primary community that is using it.

MS: Yeah, DLive is kind of a competitor to Twitch in a way. But it adds this financial portion as well. So instead of just streaming kind of for free, and then trying to sell ads or sell merchandise on the side, DLive has this cryptocurrency aspect where you can earn currency, the branded currency from the platform by both creating content and then by consuming content as well. So everybody's kind of making these small amounts of money which you can then redistribute on the platform or cash out for real dollars for other currencies.

AD: Thanks for that, Megan, just because, you know, video streaming is such a new service. And I think people are really familiar with it in a gaming sense, or, you know, you have Instagram influencers that are doing a live stream. But how do white nationalists use video streaming sites to make money? Kind of the big question? 

MS: Yeah, white nationalists are using this services the same way that other people are, they're either using them to sell merchandise from a, you know, a store or something like that, t-shirts, books, that kind of thing. So they would use the stream to just talk about that and kind of build up their brand. And then you would, you know, travel out to this other store and buy that stuff, but more frequently, they're actually using the streams to do what I call monetized propaganda. So they'll talk for hours and hours and hours and build up a rapport with their audience, maybe comment on the news, or whatever it is they're doing, you know propagandizing. And then they're taking donations while that's going on. Sometimes, they're directly taking donations for shoutouts on chat, they call those super chats. Or they're, they're taking donations just for subscriptions to the stream. So in other words, every you'll get notified every time there's a new stream out that kind of stuff.

AD: And when they're using these streams, how much of this shift to streaming can really be tied to the pandemic and what ways were white nationalists making money online before?

MS: Um, not a whole lot is tied to the pandemic, actually that I can tell. It seems like the streaming was already kicking up in this crowd before the pandemic. What is some of the data is a little bit confusing, though, because that's one of the services DLive that I've been tracking really closely also went through a cryptocurrency change in the middle of April, which was right around the time when a lot of the reopened stuff was happening and shutdowns and just all of that kind of chaos. So it's a little bit hard to tease out how much of the bump in traffic and money was due to pandemic video stream upticks versus just the cryptocurrency change and, you know, there were different events that happened that gave them press and things like that. So, yeah, I don't see a whole lot tied to the pandemic. But video streaming had been ticking up as a platform for these guys for several years already.

AD: Yeah, and were they-  this use of the streaming right, you're talking about this the shift was already occurring, is that because of I know there's been a lot recently about de-platforming, trying to get them on certain platforms, you know, Twitch and DLive, these are newer platforms that maybe don't have the same barriers to entry maybe as some of these other bigger platforms are trying to establish, so is this shift to streaming? What would drove that shift is my question.

MS: Well, streaming has gotten popular with all groups, not just the bad actors online, right, but so the bad actors go to the platforms first that look like they're the most fun and have the most audience. So YouTube, Facebook, that kind of stuff. As they get kicked off of those platforms, they want to continue streaming because they realize that can be lucrative, and aren't just fun for them, too. So then they move to the more niche platforms, I mean, all of the streamers that I'm tracking that are making any kind of serious cash on this started on YouTube were de-platformed and then move to DLive, very few of them would go to a niche platform first, it just doesn't have the eyeballs the audience that they that they want. So,

AD: And when we're talking about the kind of money that they're making, do we have any idea about who is donating and from where are these typically smaller, larger donations? And then could you give us a sense of how much money these groups are actually making on these platforms?

MS: Yeah, so this is what I've been studying for months and months and months. At this point,

AD: Spending hours looking at this. 

MS: Yeah the data's crazy. Um, it's really hard to tell, I started on YouTube trying to answer that question there, it's really hard to tell how much people are making on there without like, physically watching the stream and just jotting down the Super Chat amounts. But I did do that for a little while. They're making a few $100s an hour, depending on how popular the streamer was. As they move to DLive, the calculus changes a little bit, the equations change. They were dealing with a cryptocurrency now so there's some conversions that take place. A little bit more complicated math and stuff. But what I'm looking at is anywhere from a couple $1,000 a month, a couple $100 a month on the low end, to there's several streamers that are on DLive right-wing extremist streamers who are making over $10,000 a month in donations. 

AD: Wow.

MS: Yeah, it's pretty serious money. If you think about them, trying to make that much money selling t shirts or merchandise, it's kind of ridiculous. So one person might buy a $20 t shirt, right? But you can get 200 people to spend $1 on these platforms. 

AD: Right. And when you when you spent inordinate hours looking at these streams, did it, you know, one of the things that, you know, as scholars, we try and figure out where is the money coming from? Is it coming in small donations or big donations? Like when you're when you're looking at the data is it a lot of small donations, or one or two people that are very committed that would donate 5000 at a time?

MS: Yeah, that's a really good question. Most of the donations are tiny. They're a few $100s a day for some of the top streamers, you know, but up to $1,000 a day. They are in small numbers, but there are people who there are big donors and small donors even even in this community. So there's one guy that I'm looking at that donates pretty frequently and he's he's donated several $1,000 to numerous streamers each. So one of the one of the guys the other day on his live stream actually referred to that donor as a ÒSoros level donor.Ó

AD: Oh my god.

MS: It was a really unfortunate comparison. But um, yeah, so even the streamers know that they have, you know, quote unquote, Òbig money donors,Ó people who, who they can count on to give them a few $100 sometimes per day.

AD: And are these streams explicitly designed to raise money for the far right, or do they serve other purposes, as well? I know, you mentioned that, you know, they're they're going on these multi-hour long rants, that it's more than just selling t-shirts. So what are they really hoping to do with the streams? Is it just about money? Or does it have other purposes for them as well?

MS: I mean, from the platform point of view, they're not designing these platforms for alt-right, streamers. Unfortunately, though, some of the top streamers - in fact, the top streamers on DLive - for example, are the the right wing extremists that the number one earner number one and number two earners, on those platforms are white nationalists. So that's unfortunate. As far as from the streamers point of view, yeah, they're this is a money making opportunity. It builds their brand, it keeps their audience it inculcates people to the correct vocabulary, the correct view on whatever news is breaking and things like that. So it's propaganda, it's recruitment. And then of course, it's money making.

AD: Well, and I also feel like you know, one of the things that you mentioned of the platforms being exciting and fun to people is programs like Twitch a they they definitely cater towards a younger audience, right? Like you don't really see middle aged people like I'm gonna go on Twitch, that's definitely a younger crowd. So I also imagine it could be a recruiting tool to get this sort of white nationalist propaganda especially to younger audiences.

MS: That's absolutely true. If the streaming attracts a younger audience and everything about these streaming sites tracks younger, I mean from the user interface. I'm looking at the you know, the default avatars a little cartoon sticker guy holding a sword. The you know, the jargon on the site when they refer to bundles of these cryptocurrency they have, they call them ÒninjaghiniÓ and ÒninjetÓ and stuff is just a childish sort of like silliness to the whole platform. And I guess that helps distract from, from what's actually going on here. So you're, you know, you're listening to the streamer being completely racist for hours at a time on a site that's, you know, candy colored and has cartoons all over it is a little bit jarring. But that, you know, sort of covering a dirty message with lightheartedness and joking, I think that is something we've seen for years. You know, what this younger kind of crowd is doing to hide the message, hide the message a little bit. 

AD: completely. And I wanted to go back to something that you mentioned earlier about cryptocurrency, as someone that is not incredibly familiar with cryptocurrency, can you talk a little bit about one what that is - because I think that sort of a people like to talk about cryptocurrency and don't actually know what cryptocurrency is? So could you break down what that is really briefly for us, and then talk about why it's important for white nationalists.

MS: So cryptocurrencies are going to be a distributed way of trading money between people. They are decentralized, which means there's no one entity in charge of the currency usually. In terms of the streaming platforms, we say that they are built on top of or using a cryptocurrency, so for example, DLive they have their own currency on the site that you earn and spend doing different tasks on the site. And then when you cash out, you can change that into one of these decentralized cryptocurrencies or you can change it into actual money. One of the features about cryptocurrencies that makes them convenient for white nationalist types of people who are in involved in clandestine movements is that because they're decentralized and sort of semi-anonymous, or anonymizable, I guess, they give us they give a veneer of, of anonymity or of un-traceability. And because they're not controlled by a bank, or another sort of centralized entity, these far right type extremist groups, risk less de-platforming than they would say, on a site like PayPal and trading money on say, like PayPal or Venmo, or what have you. So they like for that reason.

AD: I mean, I think that a lot of sense. No, I Megan, I thought it's a great way to describe it. Yeah, it's like, please simply describe the entirety of cryptocurrency in 30 seconds or less. No, no, yeah, no, I completely. I think that that's a great explanation and also really fits with what we know about right-wing extremists is they they really see themselves as operating outside the state, outside of traditional platforms, traditional monetary schemes, something like cryptocurrency conceptually makes sense that it would really appeal to them is, you know, they're they're getting out from under the state. They're not using banks, you know, all of that really fits in with their ethos, right?

MS: Yeah, there's a downside too though for them. I mean, cryptocurrencies are certainly less convenient, right. They're a little bit more considered kind of offbeat or weird. So there is that kind of Òun normalÓ, it's not normal to use a cryptocurrency, and people would rather pay with a regular credit card, right? So you have to onboard your people, you have to explain how to use it. And then you have to renormalize it so they don't think that they're doing something sketchy or weird. So, so there there is that aspect to it. There's some good things about when these groups use cryptocurrencies, though one of them is especially on a site like DLive that's built up upon one, of the transaction ledgers of who's paying who for what is all public on most cryptocurrencies. And so it's very easy for someone like me, who's doing data analysis, it's kind of exciting for me to be able to look at all of that, because if they were using, you know, sort of, private banks, I wouldn't have access to see a lot of the finances and what was going on. I guess Venmo is the exception there because that's public by default, but most money, platform money based platforms are not the data is not public. Cryptocurrencies are the welcome exception to that.

AD: It's great for us, as researchers, this, we, you know, try and wrap our analysis tentacles around them, right, you know, trying to figure out all of these different avenues that they're making money, how they're moving their ideas and you know, connecting all of that is a lot easier with this kind of big data that you're able to use. How big of a problem would you say are these video streams? You know, do you think this is something that is going to increase? Do you think you'll see more white nationalist actors migrating towards streaming platforms to make money?

MS: Yes to all of that, they're definitely going to be more guys moving to these platforms to make money. There's very little downside for them. There's very little oversight from these niche platforms. In fact, one of the, one of the principles of the DLive platform was donating the other day to one of these streams. And I was kind of shocked by that I'm not sure he knew what he was donating to, maybe he did. But so there's very little oversight, very little pushback on these niche platforms to actors like this. So yes, they're going to be moving here more and more. And then when they find out, there's money to be made, that's even more exciting. From the consumer point of view that the users that are actually watching this stuff. I mean, they love it, they're able to chat live, they can give tiny donations that the, you know, streamers enjoy having, and they get a little interplay back and forth. So yeah, I think this is a major problem. The streams are sometimes hours long, where you can just listen and just sort of envelop yourself in Nazi propaganda for hours and hours, and at very little cost. So major problem.

AD: And we've talked on quite a few occasions on Right Rising, and CARR really focuses on this as well, this a this idea of de-platforming, and is de-platforming on these video streaming services possible? I mean, as you just mentioned, there's not a lot of oversight, these big, bigger platforms are moving them towards these smaller platforms where there doesn't seem to be the same impetus to really curtail these groups. So is de-platforming something that would work in this scenario to minimize the influence of these groups?

MS: Yeah, it absolutely does work. Most of these groups have been de, and individuals have been de-platformed already from sites like YouTube and Facebook and, and Twitter. And so they come to these niche platforms as a last resort. Those platforms are usually less well staffed and less knowledgeable about what's happening on their platform and how they're being abused really, by these guys. So that comes to education, we have to, you know, do the study and get the numbers reach out, you know, see what see what the what's going to happen. And a few a few people have already been removed from DLive. So Info Wars, and Alex Jones and that was kicked off, which is good. But, but yeah, there's still a quite a few that are remaining. And I think in my latest study, I had 72 different accounts that I was tracking on DLive, so extremist accounts.

AD: And all of those would you say all of those are individuals that have been kicked from bigger platforms that have been moved to DLive or are you seeing sort of any - I don't want to use the term organic here - but white nationalists really getting their start on these DLive/Twitch streaming platforms?

MS: Yeah, there were a few that I hadn't heard of, until they made it big on DLive, there's a little ecosystem where these different actors on on the streaming platforms will sort of play off each other streams, will share each other's streams, will donate to each other, and subscribe. So there's a little bit of sort of propping one another up. Of course, there's the big players too. And sometimes they don't tend to donate out as much, but certainly in that middle middle band, there's quite a bit of cross pollination. And so it allows them, you know, maybe someone who doesn't have as much of a brand outside the streaming platform to build their brand inside there. So yeah, I've definitely seen that happening.

AD: Thanks for that, Megan and can you tell us a little bit about where you're going next with this, with this research? What questions do you still have about this particular aspect of white nationalist behavior online?

MS: I got to continue studying this particular platform for a little bit, I don't think I'm quite done here yet. I only have about six monthsÕ worth of data. So I'm going to keep collecting there. And then of course, we have to figure out what to do. So now we see the scope of the problem, right? This is upwards of $10,000 a month for some of these guys - that that can't happen, that can't be. So we have to take it to the platform, figure out what what they're going to do about it. And if they're not going to do anything about it, we'll have to, you know, figure, figure out our next steps. And then you know, if the platform does decide that this isn't the kind of content they want to be hosting and enabling, then the streamers probably won't give up. So they'll go to the next thing. So just it's kind of that eternal game of whack-a-mole, figuring out where they're going to go next. And there already are some some even smaller, even more niche platforms that are springing up ready to take on, you know, the leftovers from from DLive, so I'm watching those already, too.

AD: Thank you for sharing that with us, Megan. And I think that last point that you made about how it's just a sort of eternal game of whack-a-mole. You know, it's it's really, it's tough as someone who studies these issues, and I'm sure you felt it too, you feel like all you're doing is playing catch up, right? Like, okay, well, now they've moved over here. Let me go figure out what they're doing over here. Okay, they can't be doing that, we need to go tell someone, and then they appear somewhere else a few months or a year later. And I think this is one of the challenges is trying to talk to people about the kinds of solutions really feel almost like a culture of vigilance, right, that we can't let these actors gain any ground on any of these platforms.

MS: Yeah, that's exactly right and that's the job. So I try not to get depressed about that. And instead, I embrace it. So I actually named my my software platform, whack-a-mole. 

AD: Amazing

MS: Trying to just embrace that that's the job and I come out of the, you know, data mining world, a cybersecurity world. And, and that's, that's the job there. It's, it's a like you said, eternal vigilance. I used to work in a antivirus company way back in the day, and you always felt like you were trying to catch up with the bad guys, because they were the ones, you know, making the viruses that we had to come up with a solution for and this is no different. We just that that's the job. So I kind of just choose to get used to it and, and just yeah, embrace it. 

AD: Awesome. Well, Megan, thank you so much for joining us today on Right Rising. And for people that want to read more about your work, where can they find out more about what you've written on?

MS: My, my university websiteÕs, probably the most comprehensive but the URL is kind of long. So I guess we just go to my twitter and it's linked from there @MeganSquire0 on Twitter. 

AD: Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us, Megan.

MS: Yeah, it was my pleasure. That was good, good discussion.

AD: This has been another episode of Right Rising. We'll see you all next time.