Augusta DellÕOmo: Welcome to Right Rising, a podcast from the Centre for Analysis of the Radical Right. I'm your host, Augusta DellÕOmo. Today, I'm joined by Anna Duensing, a PhD candidate in history and African American Studies at Yale, and rejoined by Dr. Alexander Ross, an instructor at Portland State University. And they're here with us today to talk about the local dimensions of far right organizing. Anna and Alexander, thank you both so much for being here.

Alexander Reid: Thanks for having us.

AD: I wanted to start with a question about why we're even doing this episode today. A lot of the Right Rising episodes that we have done have really focused on the sort of international and transnational dimensions of the far right, really talking about the way that they're organizing has globalized, particularly in the past decades. So why does focusing on local aspects of the far right matter when we're studying far right movements?

AR: I think, you know, they're both important. If you look at the way that the national far right in the United States has sort of pivoted towards Hungary, you can see this sort of the relevance of transnational networks on the local scale, particularly as politics becomes more adversarial and authoritarian. So looking at the local scale becomes another way of understanding the international linkages. And it's also a way of reckoning with the most immediate threats.

Anna Duensing: Yeah, I agree. And I think for me, both in my historical research, and in response to the present moment, I am most intrigued that like much, much of mainstream discourse happens in the national context and responds to to events when they explode to the national scale. But in my research, and in my response to contemporary events, it's actually the local-global, that is most pervasive, most frequent and most captivating to me. And I think a really good example, I think it's in Kathleen BelewÕs book where she talks about the patches on Dylann RoofÕs jacket, right to see this, this, this young kid doing anti-black violence in the context of the former Confederacy, is engaged with, you know, white nationalist movements in Africa and, and finds ideological inspiration and kinship from these global movements. I remember feeling the same way when Golden Dawn and Greece came in to endorse the organizers of the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. And in my own research, right, I see it, I It's, I find it's really hard to write about, especially the postwar far right in the United States, because it's all these tiny, weird little groups that are that are that exist for a little while that overlap that intersect so many names showing up on different letterheads. The language my like in my source I often see are are mushrooming, but sort of the constellation or spider webbing, so you sort of necessarily have to look locally in order to see the bigger picture at any given moment.

AugustaD: I think that makes a lot of sense. And, you know, when we think about often the most terrifying aspects of the far right, are these sort of international elements, right? When you see these global connections, you see them referencing each other, they're in conversation with whether it's, you know, Golden Dawn, or it's another far right movement, that that can feel really alarming, but often the most direct ramifications of far right ideology are felt at this local level, that the way that they're able to gain influence really relies on those sort of smaller scale connections that give them a lot of power, and really can have this strong impact within the community. So and I wanted to ask you and Alexander picking up as well. Anna and I are both historian. So what kind of existing historical trends is the far right, really picking up on particularly in the United States? 

AnnaD: This is something a lot of commentators have have noted of this particular moment, right. The the overlapping trials of white supremacist violence in Wisconsin with Kyle Rittenhouse, the civil trial in Charlottesville against Richard Spencer and Jason Kessler and Christopher Cantwell and many others and then the trial of Gregory McMichael, Travis McMichael and William Bryan in Georgia and then accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. Right that one of the trends is great, profound and kind of earth shattering acts of violence carried out in highly localized contexts, but that are that are necessarily tied together and bound up in a certain political moment or certain movement. So I think, and groups that are just very much connected with one another in responding to the same anxieties, intentions and political unrest. But I think like a good local example, from my, from my research, is I'm in my research, I'm very interested in the way that Neo Nazis in the 40s and 50s totally reformulated their movements to imagine themselves as shock troops of massive resistance. And they're kind of purging themselves of explicit ties to Nazism, because that's no longer politically or socially appropriate, in the same way, but and then aligning themselves with what's going on at the time, you know, and one of the things I'm really intrigued by is what is what is the extent to which that aligns with their white supremacist ideology? And what is the way that it's that many of them are Grifters? And that's the way they can enrich themselves. And I think that's another really important contemporary connection.

AR: Yeah, definitely. I think that one of the things that's most interesting, one of the things that you bring up in your work Anna, is the way that far right actors can just sort of, you know, adapt to the changing times, you know, they put on a silver shirt, they'll put on a KKK robe, they'll put on an armband, you know, like whatever is sort of happening at that time, and the identity becomes sort of fluid, while the white supremacism remains really constant. Even when it incorporates some actors, you know, who may not be, you know, generally thought of as part of the white supremacist community, and especially when you're talking about sort of local coalitions and alliances, you know, those can be really strange and fascinating to study because of the urgency that they feel, the immediacy of it, and, and the constant state of emergency that they kind of find themselves reacting within as sort of extremists. And so, you know, another, you know, kind of trial, I don't know what to call it, you know, 1/6, the commission, you know, that is all unfolding right now, too. And when you look at all of these, these cases, a lot of them involve the suburbs, they involve people moving from one suburb to a target, you know, and then coming back to their own suburb, you know, so this is kind of like, an interesting sort of spatial fluidity involved here, as well as a kind of identity crisis in the far right. Mobilizing more around violence and the constant demand to justify that violence. Then then, like, you know, a set ideological dogma. So we do get dogmatic fascists and whatnot. But especially on the local scale, it's much more interesting to see how like, neighborhood coalitions come together to oppose, you know, homeless camps, or, you know, the Proud Boys show up at a school board meeting, you know, and, and you have, you know, yoga moms showing up with, with fascist, anti-lockdown or anti-vaccine mandate protests with with police. So, you know, that's one thing that I think is fascinating, especially on the local scales, the complexity of it.

AnnaD: Right. And I think you've also nodded to a really important factor of you know, this sort of increased fracturing in terms of where people live, and sort of the rise of this sort of rural resentment and sort of suburban resentment, which is which is has a very long history as well. But how often these are stored, you know, when we look at these these cases, or these acts of violence, it is often individuals traveling. And I was just, you know, I was just looking at the the election map results in Virginia, and thinking about you know, the electric blue blip that is Charlottesville in the sea of red and how that dynamic was so fully a part of why the Unite the Right organizers chose Charlottesville and, and so yeah, I think in the question of discussing, you know, local movements, local people to think about traveling and right how a lot of these very spectacular acts of far right violence involve groups moving to a place often right I'm moving to the scary city, in fact, to make their stage in whatever form it takes.

AR: It does sort of bring to mind this the sort of quasi spatial relationships that people develop on social media around disinformation as well, in a sense, because when you have that spatial difference, you can make up the story about the other. You know, I remember there was this guy who came to do something around my house, I think he was an exterminator for ants or something like that. And he shows up, and he says, you know, I never crossed cross the border from, you know, the suburb into Portland. And when my wife does, I tell her, she can't do it unless she has a gun. You know, and I'm like, wow, this is, this is like, exactly what I'm studying and, and understanding and social media, like reflected back here, the fear of the inner city, and, and the kind of distance that we can get from one another in order to hate each other. And then like, you know, sort of invade. You know, I think that there's a lot in that with regards to disinformation, as well.

AnnaD: Just to say, I work as a tour guide, and I'm really struck by how often tourists will ask me very sincerely, if it's safe, like to navigate, like the East Village, you know, and then these places that that I'm just like, where, where? What news are you watching? Like, where are you hearing stories about the city? And how is it like, even if you hear a story about crime rates going up, why do you have said how do you have such a narrow vision of what constitutes crime that makes it like what makes you feel vulnerable in this setting? I think that is that is another that is that is a conversation for another thing.

AugustaD: I wanted to go back to something that Alexander mentioned about just in passing the kinds of whether it's school boards, whether it's policing, but these, perhaps I would say pillars of institutionalism at the local level, right? When we think about these hotbeds of far right activism, it's not just spectacular acts of violence, right. But it's the everyday ways that they seek to influence local politics. And often, at least we've seen in the past few months, it's through school boards and conversations around policing, and homelessness that these have become flashpoints for far right actors and ideologies across geographic space. So I know both of you work in different contexts, and you live in different areas. So how do far right actors seek to influence institutions on the local level? And what does that actually look like in practice?

AnnaD: I think I can say with regard to this, the school boards, I mean, this won't be news to many people. Right, but that the PTA, you know, school boards, local, local politics about schools is one of the oldest battlegrounds for white supremacist ideology and for the defense of segregation in this country. And, you know, you see, I think, especially the sort of the, the informal spaces, the family spaces, the domestic spaces, that's another site to think about the role of white women in the far right, and or the role of white women in upholding far right ideology. Right, as as Alexander noted, right, we do see the surreal confluence of yoga moms, and Neo Nazis, right, somehow advocating on the same sides of an issue. But, you know, there's a there's a phrasing from Elizabeth McRaeÕs book, Mothers of Massive Resistance, that I really like what she calls the homegrown reproduction of white supremacy. And I think the PTA, right, has been the site from the beginning, where you see the kind of defanged and benevolent forms of defenses of white supremacy. You know, that's where conversations about censoring textbooks and movies happens, you know, that's the school board and the moms and the PTA, right, that's where you fund summer schools and in the north you know, gifted programs to segregate institutions and, and regulate what students are taught particularly about black life and black history. So I guess the only thing I can say there is just how old that that particular story is, school boards, local elections, local committees, all of that. That's, where it that's where those movements begin.

AR: Yeah, I think that, you know, what can't really be underestimated is the influence of that kind of grassroots approach. In today's politics, especially when you look at the importance of the Tea Party and driving the far right further in driving the conservative movement to the far right, and then Tea Party exponents like Steve Bannon, really adhering to that kind of grassroots approach. And every day, you know, you hear him in his podcast, he's talking about, you know, constantly keeping up the pressure on a local level, right. And, you know, that has all of the, you know, different tactics applied to it, it's got, you know, disinformation spreading false information and news, spreading fear and intimidation, sometimes just by showing up like in full on, you know, Proud Boy type of uniform. But other times, you know, by shouting down, you know, women on on the school board, as happened in Portland just a few weeks ago, you know. So you know, there's a there's, and that happens if they can't get on the inside. And once on the inside and dominating school boards, like another area of Oregon close to Portland, Roseburg, I think it is. It's a question of, like Anna was saying, shutting down symbolic structures of opposition, dissent, and diversity. So you know, you can't bring in a rainbow flag or a pride flag to school because that's considered political symbol that doesn't have a place, you know, within the school. And when the superintendent refused to really enforce the rule, because it's just being violated all over the place, as a as a part of civil disobedience by the students. He's just been fired by the school board in like, four to three vote, you know, the conservatives against the liberals in a very tearful school board meetings. Right. So. So it's about sort of getting power within the institutions, and then starting with the dismantling the symbolic structures of the opposition.

AnnaD: And I think, you know, I think it's almost as if that's where the battles both both begin and end. And I think why, again, why the return to the opening question, which is why the local is important, is because you pay attention there as a bellwether, right as a way to start seeing what's going to happen nationwide. And this and I think, and then there are the certain universal trends that are that, that course through the entire country, and that have really deep roots, right that that there's a sort of yoking together of black and red scares, there's using anti-communism and anti-statism to merge kind of far right, or extremist platforms with more mainstream conservative causes, right. But then state by state, county, by county school board, by school board, the issues usually are highly particular. But you watch you watch those, you watch it in your own community, or in a place that's sort of particularly hot at any given moment. And the fights themselves might seem really different. You know, that that necessarily, so in New York City versus Portland versus rural, Southern Illinois versus, you know, the US Mexico border. But, again, I think they really those those highly particular highly localized campaigns, and what their ambitions are or tend, what the larger mass movement might look like.

AugustaD: I think this distinction is really important about how what we see on the national level, in many cases has already been played out at the local level. That they've tried many of these tactics before. It's not like, you know, we mentioned the Tea Party, not this, the Tea Party showed up one day in Congress and decided to try some of these things out. This playbook has really been operating in the local level for a really long time. And, obviously, Anna, you're based in New York, Alexander is based in Portland, I grew up in the South, I grew up in North Carolina and went to grad school at Texas. And in many cases, often the South is used as kind of a boogeyman of sort of far right and racist ideas that these sorts of conversations about school boards, race, policing, the as Anna mentioned, the sort of dual strands of fear of blackness, fear of communism, that you see that a lot in the South, but these are also playing out in many different geographic areas in the US, it's just perhaps, the local iterations and what the particular flavors of it look like are a little different, but they're all connecting as part of this same sort of ecosystem of white supremacist and far right ideas that circulate within the US. So I wanted to ask you all what are kind of the spectrum of issues that the far right is really rallying around in the particular areas that you work on at this moment we just saw an election in Virginia, we talked about the several kinds of trials that are going on in this moment, in the United States, so we haven't even mentioned Critical Race Theory, which has been a huge component of what the far right has been talking about the past few months in the US. So what are the kind of issues that you all are tuned into that youÕre paying attention to that maybe some of our listeners are aware of, or maybe ones that we're kind of missing? 

AR: So definitely one over here in the Northwest is is land and water issues. The BundyÕs have a group called People's Rights. And they're currently you know, the state of Oregon is in pretty epic drought. And this is always bad news for the people of the Klamath River Basin. And they know that and so they are trying to stir up a lot of resentment against, you know, alternative uses for water other than irrigators, you know, so, so that's always kind of a big thing in the US West, on a local scale, that the far right is always kind of mobilizing against is, you know, environmentalism, conservation, biodiversity, native people. And what they want to see right is just all that water going to agriculture. Part of that, you know, I don't want to get too into the weeds about that. But that's, that's certainly one thing that local right wingers are kind of latching on to here.

AnnaD: And I guess, and I'm torn about my answer, because I feel like my research is skewed between the North and the South, I spent my formative years in Charlottesville, but I have my mind on New York City a lot lately. And I think, I mean, for me, I think with regard to New York, I think one of the big concerns, I mean, part of it is is you know, what, what is the sort of psyche or demeanor or platform of a far right figure who does feel like the extreme minority who feels embattled, who feels like they live in a place fundamentally hostile to them? How does that serve as a as a sort of galvanizing organizing force? You know, I think one could also argue like, rather than living in, in, in isolation in a homogenous community, where one's neighbors and coworkers and community members reflect the kinds of racial demographics, religious demographics, political demographics as you, what does it do to someone's process of radicalization, to feel othered right, and to be up in close, should be up close and personal with the things they disdain the most? So that's something I think about with regard to New York. Like, what does it mean that the far right figure, you know, doesn't necessarily feel safe here? And I say that I live in a part of the city where the Proud Boys did hang out in their heyday. But I think, overall, to think about the way, I think you could argue that, that to be in a place where you feel disgust, to a certain extent, right, is a profound radicalizing tool. And of course, attached to that, I think a place like New York will continue to experience an uptick in kind of anti-black, but also anti-Asian, and really, in general, xenophobic attacks. Just because of that. And I mean, New York is such a wildly complex, big, sprawling place where demographics of a neighborhood can change within a few blocks, and the voting patterns are kind of insane. And then I think in terms of a concern of the far rightÕs allegiances and ties to our mainstream institutions, I think one of the long term issues will be with regard to the NYPD and with regard to the the increased defensiveness and again, that kind of those feelings of victimhood and uncertainty that that that you see, so many police officers talk about in the, in the teeth of movements for for racial justice and movements against police brutality. So I think and given the recent election of Eric Adams, I think that's, that's and on, on, on on sort of War on Crime platform. I think that's really going to be a major issue in New York and in northern cities in general going forward.

AugustaD: What's really interesting about a lot of these sort of far right ideas, whether it's about victimhood, whether it's violence is and this is something that I know I struggle with in my work is I, we all study the most extreme forms of white supremacy, far violence. But many of these reactionary ideas have a lot of gain in sort of mainstream American politics, right, that we talk a lot about in the historical profession about the construction in the US of the sort of military policing complex was something that was created with bipartisan support that even though these ideas are fringe, in some respects, the kinds of traction that they've been able to get with certain kinds of perhaps you would say, sort of rhetoric or covering, as Alexander mentioned, you know, it's wearing a different shirt, right, that there's all of these ways that these ideas become normalized. And it looks different in different contexts. What this looks like in New York City is different than what this looks like in Portland, or looks different in North Carolina, or Charlottesville. But a lot of these reactionary ideas have for a long time gotten play in the United States. And I wanted to ask you all, how do you think the COVID 19 pandemic has changed far right organizing at the local level? In some respects, obviously, it's catalyzed it around issues of vaccinations and masking. But there are other aspects of this that are important to point out how the organizing has evolved? 

AR: Hmm.

AnnaD: No, it's It's a good question. But it's, it feels like a complicated one, especially this far out, because part of me is like, what, what, what ways has the world transformed around me that I'm not fully aware of? Because it requires hindsight? I mean, again, in a place like New York, I think it's I think it's a feeling of victimhood and persecution. You know, especially as New York's vaccination rate continues to creep up, and be this in the city that the highest in the state, I think, right? You know, like, it's not always the case. But you know, walking into a public setting, I can sometimes read a kind of defiance or arrogance, or like, whatever to the person not wearing a mask. And again, I think it's that that sort of the the embattled feelings of isolation. That's one one thing I think about sort of now, now that we're this far into it. My answer might have been different a year ago, but I think at this point, that's one way I think about it. And I'm curious about you Alexander.

AR: Yeah, I mean, there is that, you know, I think that it, it sort of rallies, a kind of conspiracy theory that is especially situated among kind of small business owners who want to be smarter than the experts who have this kind of drive for a killer instinct and to dominate, you know, this kind of feeling of individualism, that, you know, it's us against the sheeple, us against the herd, you know, science and the experts are, you know, all kind of integrated in this in this sort of global Cabal, and we have to show defiance, you know, our Defiance is sort of our, you know, where our dignity comes from, because our dignity is being stripped by these people who are trying to enforce the lockdowns and crush the little guy. Right. So I, the pandemic has really kind of opened the doors to the far right, for a lot of people, you know, who otherwise sort of dabbled in anti-vax stuff, you know, like, and now it's just like, you know, pedal to the metal here. And, you know, they've been really adaptive towards that, you know, we've seen the Groypers, the America First brands, white nationalists, under Nick Fuentes, sort of move directly into the space of anti-vax, you know, movement building, and we've also seen some particularly sort of unsettling and disturbed kind of Atomwaffen division type of accelerationist kind of reposition themselves directly around, you know, the vaccine and COVID-19 and conspiracy theories around it. And that sort of, you know, it's opened a gateway for people who consider themselves nominally left wing anti-system, you know, to then start sharing these kinds of motifs, you know, cabals, and this and that, which, you know, again, it's sort of strengthens, it strengthens the numbers. So, I think that, you know, in some ways, the pandemic is the best thing that possibly could have happened to the far right, no matter how much they want to complain about it and the measures that are put in place to you know, stop it.

AnnaD: I mean, I think yeah, I think that's so well said right that it in that the far right benefits and recruits out of anxiety and anti-statism and conspiratorial anti-communism and and what have you right that the pandemic in doing what it does to every component of society which is exacerbate present issues. It has it has been effective fuel to the fire.

AugustaD: I think that is a great and depressing note to end on. So like many of our podcasts, the far-right it is not perhaps the curious topic. I did. You know, one thing I did want to talk a little bit about before we wrap up is I gave a lecture to some students at Boston University and I got a question about, you know, what can we do about this? There's a lot of concern, I think, from people just about what can we do, and it can feel really overwhelming. And what I said was kind of the focus of today's episode that the local aspects of the far right are some of the most dangerous and they're also the ones that we actually have the most impact, and not very many people vote in local elections. Not many people pay attention to local school boards or policing budgets, or any of these issues, which are so important and are actually really outside the control of the national government. So I think all of us would encourage you, I mean, I don't want to speak for Anna and Alexander, but stay tuned in to what's happening in your local communities and being engaged member of your community that's paying attention to the kinds of issues that are really rumbling around that, you know, at first glance may appear as just sort of, oh, this is a ridiculous debate about Critical Race Theory. But what is it that's actually undergirding that kind of activism and those kinds of questions and rhetoric? So Anna and Alexander, thank you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners read more of your work? Find out more about you? Can they follow you on social media? Where can they hear more from you?

AnnaD: I'm on Twitter, I don't tweet often. But when I do, it's very, it's very earnest and considered. So it's Anna, ana a us louisana, I'll just spell as a na a US,Ana au Louisiana and also Louisiana,

AR: IÕm areidross. 

AugustaD: And you can also find both of them on the CARR website with any sort of op-eds or public facing work that they're doing. So I would highly encourage any of our listeners to go find their work on the CARR website. So, Alexander and Anna thank you so much for joining us. 

AR: Yeah, thank you.

AnnaD: Well, thank you for having us.

AugustaD: This has been another episode of Right Rising. We'll see you all next time.