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Playability Podcast


Episode 9: Lauren Woolsey with Aaron Wilson


Run time: 17 minutes, 33 seconds


Episode recorded by Lauren Woolsey.


Playability is produced by Mike Risley.


Transcript edited by Lauren Woolsey.


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00:07 Lauren Woolsey
[Music only for first several seconds] Hello and welcome back to Playability, where we hold conversations at the crossroads of gameplay and accessibility. I'm your host, Lauren Woolsey, and I'm here today with Aaron Andrew Wilson, the game designer of Sovereign Skies which we'll talk about today, and for disclosure the artist behind our amazing Playability logo! What's this game's backstory? 


00:28 Aaron Wilson
Sovereign Skies all started basically when I started designing games, which was a few years ago now. Actually, my game design I would say, I actually started doing game design a really long time ago because I was doing RPG design when I was very young, back in the 80s, when I was a high school kid, but I was kind of doing that stuff more as a hobby and now I've kind of taken it on more seriously, because I found that I just really really enjoy doing it. So I started just taking myself more seriously when it comes to design, and I decided one day basically that I wanted to design a game again but this time it was gonna be a board game and I really started out doing Sovereign Skies as a card game. It was not called Sovereign Skies at the time, it was called Sky Reign, and I was sort of getting into just trying to figure out what kind of game I wanted to make. 


01:25 Aaron Wilson
So I had this idea for a sci-fi kind of theme, um, and the idea came from sort of this approach where all the players were the bad guys [Lauren: laughs] So really it was kind of a commentary -- a social commentary in a way -- I wanted everyone to kind of realize what you're doing is coming in and you're kind of corrupt and your influence and control that you're putting upon this sort of world is really all about exploitation. So the different factions are kind of squabbling with one another but they're really after the same goal which is exploiting either planets or some sort of, some sort of culture in worlds so that's kind of where this came about. As I developed this game -- the original game which was Sky Reign -- I realized there were some things that I didn't understand and I didn't, I wanted to do better so I began kind of doing variations. Eventually I got to a point where I created a game called New Reign, and it was a very different game from my original card game. And this game is one that I ended up taking to Unpub, and I started to shop around, and it was called New Reign, well because it was so different from the original but also because it was a “new reign” of kind of a government that was happening where we were coming in and they were trying to become this democracy and we were exploiting this democracy. So Sovereign Skies really came from the fact that New Reign just wasn't a very good name [Both laugh], and so, and so the development of New Reign into Sovereign Skies was about refining the system that was New Reign, but also refining a lot of aspects of what this game was, and um, yeah it's, it's a long time coming up. Honestly I, I'm really really excited about where this game is now, finally I feel like the base game is there, and yeah I'm excited to get it out into the world.


03:24 Lauren Woolsey
That's excellent, yeah that, that step you mentioned of just having confidence in yourself that “yeah I can actually design a game!” that's, that's one that a lot of people don't take that probably could, so that's always exciting. The version that you brought to Unpub, was that a board game at that point, or still a card game that eventually got developed into something bigger? 


03:50 Aaron Wilson
Well actually, it's funny you asked because the first time I went to Unpub, I just went for a day because I happen to have, my wife's family had an event going on down in the area, well really down in Maryland but near very close to Baltimore, Baltimore is in Maryland, haha, but they are a few cities away and I decided to kind of take this day trip and go over to Unpub to to check it out. And I did have my card game version with me at the time, it wasn't yet, it was still Sky Reign, and I was able to just get a couple of plays in with some people there and people -- I didn't know anyone at the time, this is quite a few years ago -- and then the next year I actually returned and I knew some people because of Twitter and I had New Reign at the time, and was able to test that and really get amazing feedback, and I was, I was able to pitch it actually to a couple of publishers at the time and I did actually get an offer for New Reign at that Unpub or right after that Unpub. However, I didn't feel like it was ready so, which, which is a kind of a weird thing but it, it's maybe a little egocentric, but I really felt like I wanted it to be with a publisher that I knew and with, and to be in the shape that I wanted to be in. I was in no rush to get it into the hands of someone that I didn't necessarily feel like could bring it to the next level, so I kept ahold of it and I actually didn't end up pitching in it again until almost a year, maybe a year later, and then eventually the following Unpub was after it was signed which is last Unpub, which was fantastic, and it was actually being run by Deep Water at that point. Ian Zang was running the playtest for it at the time, because we were still doing a lot of playtests and development at that point yeah. 


05:38 Lauren Woolsey
Great, yeah, and Unpub is such a phenomenal experience and the the major one in Baltimore - ‘cause I know that there are smaller events -- but the major one in Baltimore is just unparalleled in the wide range of feedback you can get. I know that there are other conventions like Protospiel where you can get really targeted feedback, but just to get a really wide range of playtesters including people who are just there because it sounded interesting and not necessarily fellow game designers. [Aaron: yeah absolutely] yeah that can be really really helpful.


06:10 Aaron Wilson
Yeah and I think I think even the Unpub minis are really helpful. I did end up taking New Reign to a couple of Unpub Minis down in Westchester, Pennsylvania where I got great feedback for it, and I was able to take it to another level at that point. And actually I just remembered I actually did do a place at Metatopia which was a little northeast conference, where it is all playtests -- it's really actually great, they do a room at GenCon as well -- the same, the same people do have this kind of a playtest room there at GenCon and I never kind of made it into that realm, I never took it into GenCon, but I did go to Metatopia one of the first years, well that I found out about at least. It was quite a few years ago now, but yeah it was a really great experience and I was able to get a lot of playtesting, so I think it's really important that designers take their games to conferences, to game cons, and get as many playtests in as they can. 


07:00 Lauren Woolsey
Get as many different perspectives as they can, and get that wide range of feedback that can [Aaron: yeah absolutely] can have you look at the game from a different point of view.


07:07 Aaron Wilson
Yeah absolutely, having that kind of wide swath of people and types of people play your game is really important. Like I now go to NYC Playtest Group, that’s Gil Hova and Dan Newman so I get to see those guys all the time. You know the thing is, we end up playing each other's games a lot, and there's a, you know, a pretty good amount of people that go to these, but at the same time you're getting kind of the same types of people and you're getting a lot of designers which is always great, but you really want to get that public, too. The gamers... 


07:38 Lauren Woolsey
Yeah, once you’re trying to refine something [Aaron: yeah, absolutely, absolutely, it's very important.] So we've heard about your development path, what are the primary mechanics that the game uses?


07:49 Aaron Wilson
Well it's a rondel, so one of the cool things about it is that you're basically, you're always moving one space around the rondel, either clockwise or counterclockwise, and then you're spending energy which is the game's currency to move more spaces so you potentially can come around to nearly the same spot -- you're not actually allowed to play the same action two turns in a row from the same or at least the same planet. Each planet has a unique action, but you can also spend two energy to turn around basically, fly around the planet that you're on and go in the opposite direction, so then you'll just pick up on your following turns going in the counterclockwise motion. You can always just pay to turn around again, and it's a really cool kind of dynamic thing, so you're planning out kind of where you want to go and according to what you want to achieve. It's a lot of fun, there are a couple games I think that do something similar, but I can't name them off the top of my head right now. But it's fairly unique, it's just really really useful in this type of game in the situation that's created by the, by the theme, and by, yeah the mechanics [a few unclear words]. 


08:56 Lauren Woolsey
It's always nice to combine the mechanics and the theme together in a seamless way.


09:00 Aaron Wilson 
Yeah, yeah absolutely. So when you're moving around this rondel, basically you're, you have this mothership, and you're sort of orbiting the system and as you go, wherever you stop, you can do one of three actions: you can drop off a ship, so basically put a drop ship onto the planet, and that will stay there and basically those build up for area control; and you can take a politic card which is basically like a simple resource -- that's sort of like intel for the planet and the culture there -- and then you can do a unique action. And those unique actions allow you to do certain things like turn your ships that you have there into a base, so each of the planets have a different number of ships that it requires for you to turn it into a base, there are twos, threes, and fours out of the six, so two of each kind, and then there's like a planet that allows you to actually score one of those bases, which we call “activate” so you can activate one of those bases and you'll get the top most score chit, so an activated base is worth more than a non-activated base, which is worth more than any amount of ships so the majority controls is based on that level of construction that you've brought along. 


10:10 Lauren Woolsey
Excellent. Now, I want to swing us around to one of the big focuses that we have at Playability, which is on accessibility. So what does accessibility mean to you?


10:20 Aaron Wilson
Well, accessibility, it means a couple things. When I think of accessibility, I think of being able to get your game in front of people that aren't versed in all games. One thing that we're trying to do is make sure that this game is accessible to a certain crowd. It is for gamers, certainly, but there is an accessibility here. And then also I think of accessibility as how does it read? Is it good for colorblind, is it good for people that are physically challenged in some way? So you know it's, it's hard to hit all those marks, but I, you know, I think that's something that we are going for. 


10:52 Aaron Wilson
Um, and also, I do think about inclusivity when I think about accessibility as well, and that's one thing that I love about Deep Water and about how Nolan is really approaching running this company, is that he really wants to be inclusive, and that's something that we're really trying to integrate into the theme is having all these vast amount of cultures, and recognizing all these different kinds of races and cultures, and I'm talking about humans so there, there are no aliens in this game specifically, there are all different types and races of humans. Even though it's like far into the future, it is a nod at all these different types of cultures and they're trying to come together as one larger kind of democracy, and each one of these planets kind of have a different skew but they're trying to come together and, and that recognizing that and recognizing those types of people I think is really important to bring that into a game.


11:45 Lauren Woolsey
Yeah, inclusivity is another important aspect of accessibility, it’s just making people feel welcome from all walks of life, all ages, genders, races, everything. [Aaron: yep, yep.] Absolutely. What decisions would you say you made in the game design process with accessibility in mind, so you've mentioned that Deep Water Games is keeping this in mind for the art direction, but what else did you either change, or just from the get-go have in mind with this topic? 


12:13 Aaron Wilson
Yeah, there's a level of complexity that we wanted to make sure that we were streamlining out to a degree. It was a much more complex game I would say a year ago, and that's just one of the things that I think you do in development anyway, is that you try to streamline the game into like what's the most fun about it, but also what that does, is that helps it become more accessible for a larger audience as well, you know, the idea is that you would get this into the hands of people that don't necessarily play games all the time, and maybe there's a gamer there to teach it or whatnot, but getting this game to a point where it's not a heavy game. It's medium light and I think there's a sweet spot in games right now that is sort of that medium light level. One of the guys that I see every once in a while because he lives by me, there's Steve Finn, he lives very close to me and he's a great designer he designed Herbaceous [Lauren: mm-hmm] and also Biblios, and so a lot of times his designs hit that sweet spot, and I really like appreciate his approach. And also Alex Kevern, he also lives up here by me, and like those guys I try to game with and we playtest stuff together. We're all kind of designing in that same space, and like, I feel really honored to be amongst those guys, and, and honestly like, having that kind of feedback to people who are kind of in that same mental space of trying to make something that is more accessible to a larger audience, I think is helpful as well. 


13:39 Lauren Woolsey
Excellent! What's your favorite part of the game, if you had to sum up your favorite part in just a couple of sentences? 


13:46 Aaron Wilson
What I like about the game is the balance in the way that we've developed the scoring. Right now, you can score not only off bases, but off of Senators, which are sort of these cards that give you a free action, and you score off those when you have the right politic cards to kind of pay for them. One thing that we did in the development process, it was kind of an old-school way to do area majority where you have a scoring round and you have to kind of analyze the board and figure out who got points based on who has majorities, what we wanted to do and this kind of harkens back to the idea of accessibility, is kind of smooth that out, so that you're not stopping halfway through the game and then doing it again at the end of the game. So instead, you have this smooth process that goes from the beginning to the end and we developed this idea where the majorities are an action and what you're doing is kind of playing this tug-of-war. So each of the planets kind of have this representational chit that are three points each. You can get rid of your politic cards, for a point each no matter what, even if you can't get those chits, but if those chits are available on the board, you just get them. If somebody else has them, you can take them from them if you have majority over them in that respective area, so that chit represents a planet and so the majority scoring is actually dynamic, so you have to go and you have to do the pledge action, then you have to get rid of the cards that matches those things, and then you have to have majority over the person who owns those things, so you can potentially be taking them from different players and then you have to try to keep those on your player board by the end of the game, even if you don't still maintain majorities at the end of the game and you still have those you still score those. No one's come and challenged you. So it's a really really cool dynamic way to approach area control, and honestly I mean I would say that's my favorite part of the game right now, because really still has kind of that shiny new car factor for me, because that's one of the newest developments that we brought to the game, and that just happened, you know, this year, I would say, back in spring of this year, and that that just stood out. We kind of tried a couple of different things, and getting to that point was just very very exciting, and it's still exciting for me, because the game isn't out yet, so I'm excited to hear what people think, too. 


16:06 Lauren Woolsey
Yeah, it seems like it's been a long time coming [Aaron: yeah absolutely]. For our listeners interested in getting a copy of this game, when will it be available, and how will it be available? 


16:16 Aaron Wilson
Well, the game is probably not gonna hit Kickstarter until the end of this year, and I can't definitively say because that's all up to Deep Water and how overloaded they're gonna be. [Lauren: for sure.] They've seen a lot of success recently, especially with “Welcome To…” being so big, so I know they've got a lot going on. They've basically given me a tentative date of Q4 of this year, worst case scenario Q1 of next year, so [Lauren: perfect] and then possibly an Origins soft launch, and then it'll definitely be on shelves by GenCon next year. 


16:48 Lauren Woolsey
Excellent, and we'll make sure to have links in the episode description, so that our listeners can find those.


16:54 Aaron Wilson
That's fantastic, thank you.


16:57 Lauren Woolsey
[Music begins] Well thank you so much for coming on this was a great conversation and I look forward to being able to play Sovereign Skies!


17:02 Aaron Wilson
Awesome, thank you, thanks for having me on! 


17:05 Lauren Woolsey
For more information about the topics that we discussed in this episode and the links that we just mentioned, we'll have those in the About This Episode section on our website at playability pod dot com. And if our listeners have any questions or comments that you would like to share with us please email us at playability pod at gmail dot com and find us on major social media platforms as @playabilitypod. Thanks again for listening, play with a new perspective.
[a]currently a link to the preview page for the episode.