Lauren Woolsey (00:09):
Hello and welcome back to Playability, where we hold conversations at the crossroads of gameplay and accessibility. I'm your host, Lauren Woolsey, and I'm here today with Randy Flynn, the designer of Cascadia. Welcome Randy!

Randy Flynn (00:20):
Hi Lauren.

Lauren Woolsey (00:22):
So tell me this game's backstory.

Randy Flynn (00:25):
So back earlier this year, Marlene and I were on vacation and on the flight back I was reviewing my game design notes -- which just has a bunch of random game ideas in it -- and one of them said something like double tile laying [Lauren laughs] and Marlene and I, we had just played a bunch of -- and that was it! It was really simple -- but Marlene and I had just played a bunch of Tiny Towns because we had bought it while we were on vacations right when it came out. [Lauren: it is a good game.] It was a great game and still is, and we played it like six times in a row and based on kind of those things, I sketched out a few ideas on the plane on the way home, um, and started prototyping kind of as soon as I got home and I was double checking, I actually was ordering components from print and play within like a week, [Both laugh] so that was its genesis.

Lauren Woolsey (01:18):
Awesome. And from that kind of starting point, double tile laying and then the prototype coming onto the table, what were some of the main milestones in the game's development path?

Randy Flynn (01:32):
Well the early core of the game as kind of remained a bit bit unchanged and it was really just the idea that you were building up some kind of world with hex tiles and they were always hexes. I don't really remember why. And on those towels you are placing, you know, something to populate that hex. I think originally they were plants and animals and so that was, you know, sort of the first set. But one of the big things early on was that the game had a board. And so I know that when you played it [Lauren: mm-hmm!] back at Gen Con, it still had, it had that board, which was pretty much the way it was from the start. And so it had the board. And I think the key thing that I had was, you know, a set of scoring conditions for the creatures. [Lauren: right.] And those, the idea of that has been there since the beginning and it does, that's probably the part that really came from Tiny Towns.

Randy Flynn (02:25):
So you have these multiple scoring conditions and you can vary them. So I kind of worked on it that way from the beginning, but early on it was a very sort of limited or you know, spatial puzzle because of the board, which was fun and had a lot of the, the core feeling that I wanted. But it also was kind of limiting. Um, it, it kind of made it solvable for some people that are like, look at it and go, okay, here's how I maximize my score. [Lauren: hmmm.] All I need to do is see if I can get these things. And so some players were incredibly good at that and the ones that enjoyed it were, were not as good actually like me. [Lauren laughs] So that was, you know, one of the things, another thing that was interesting early on was, and this lasted until the first, maybe second or third play test was originally it went in two phases so that you spent the entire first part of the game building up the board. Um, it's kind of the lands, the hex tiles, and then the second phase was placing those creatures on there. So it, they were very distinct phases. Um, and how they felt. The first phase was almost, uh, like relaxing. And the second phase was where the tension came in. 'Cause then you had to get the pieces you had set up for or, or figure out how to, you know, kind of come up with an alternate strategy on top of the board you'd already completely filled out.

Lauren Woolsey (03:43):
Right.

Randy Flynn (03:44):
And so, yeah. So that was how it was. Um, you know, those things existed for a while and it worked for some people and not as well for others. So that was the, the start of it. Yeah. But I think that two phase bit was the first thing to go. It's like, yeah, these two bits of the game are two different and some people might enjoy one part and not the other. [Lauren: right.] Some people could plan that far ahead. Like it's weird to plan that far ahead. And so that was the first thing to go is to get rid of the board and come up with a drafting system whereby you could take either hex land tile or creature place on it if you have the space. And so that was the first thing to go. And I think once that changed, it started to become more of a, a viable game. And it was that way, you know, maybe three months into yeah, about three months into its development. That's the way it was. And it made it through much of the summer like that.

Randy Flynn (04:34):
But then, um, I started talking with Shawn Stankewich at Flatout Games about publishing it because Shawn really liked it. And, uh, we, we played it together and talked about it a lot. And as we talked about that, you know, I'd had the idea of getting rid of the board and Shawn was very much in favor of that. So basically once a, you know, kind of decided to go and publish it with Flatout Games, that was the next thing that we did was we took the board away and just said, okay, well the scoring conditions, we'll hopefully just limit that. You're not going to make some crazy shape and fill your entire table with pieces. Um, and sure enough --

Lauren Woolsey (05:08):
Well, you could if you really wanted to!

Randy Flynn (05:13):
Exactly. And I've had one person do something like that, but generally you don't score very well if you do that. So it was really an instant hit and getting rid of the board, it really made it dynamic because one of the things that I've been going for all along is that you're not solving, you know, a simple puzzle that you're saying, okay, I just need to try and hit this puzzle with you. Actually you actually have to give yourself some freedom so that you can react to what comes up in the market and you know, adjust strategies slightly. And so I think that really opened up the possibility for that. And that's really a lot of what you, what you see now, is you see very interesting land shape sometimes because it wasn't what people were planning, but as they got started they just started not seeing the lands creatures that they needed and they had to think, okay, well wait, what, what do I do now? And they would, you know, then adjust and uh, so you get some interesting shapes to the worlds that people create.

Lauren Woolsey (06:07):
Yeah. It's amazing how big a difference something that feels maybe small at the beginning can really be and the kind of cascading effects it has both on gameplay and the strategies that people come up with.

Randy Flynn (06:21):
Yeah, I think that's, that's really true. It's one of those things in development, it's easy to think through things in your head and think, okay, it'll have this little effect or that effect. And sometimes the play testing it, getting it out there quickly just shows you how, how wrong you were for better or worse.

Lauren Woolsey (06:37):
I think that's the best part of playtesting is just to show you how wrong you were.

Randy Flynn (06:42):
Yeah, yeah. I think, I think so. It certainly is the best part of playtesting it quickly and getting something to the table.

Lauren Woolsey (06:50):
Yeah definitely. So what are the primary goals of the players when they're playing Cascadia?

Randy Flynn (06:54):
Well, it's designed as a two layer puzzle, you know, and it, one of the things we also added after working with Flatout Games was the, the land scoring. Um, I had played with that a little bit early on but didn't come up with anything. We came up with initially a very simple system, but it really, I think put in the head of, you know, there's a two layer puzzle here. And so, you know, the idea is that you're arranging your lands to score well, but you're also then setting up the creature scoring with the land. So it's like you've got two, you've got two things you have to keep in mind while you're doing this. And so the player needs to keep those two goals in mind. They can focus harder on one or the other if they want. And the creature scoring is more important. It's about two thirds of your score compared to about one third for lands. But that doesn't necessarily mean creatures are more important in the total game just because of the fact that the land is set up for the creatures. So I think, you know, that's the goals that the players have to have.

Randy Flynn (07:47):
Now. It's also what are the scoring conditions and how much are they going to look at them and decide upfront, Oh, I know what I want this to look like. Some players really do that. They look at it, they can think out in their head, you know, okay, if I can make this shape and put these here and will really, you know, score these creatures as well. And others are much more like, okay, I got a general idea how each one scores, now I'm just going to see what comes up in the market and, and run with it. [Lauren: Right.] Um, and I think you kind of do better either way, depending on, you know, what your, you know, what your strengths and weaknesses are.

Lauren Woolsey (08:17):
Yeah. You just got to lean into it.

Randy Flynn (08:19):
Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Woolsey (08:21):
Now a question we always ask our guests and so I want to get to it before we get too much further: What does accessibility mean to you?

Randy Flynn (08:29):
So I think it's interesting, I see multiple useful definitions for accessibility in board games. You know, as someone coming from the computer software world, that's my day job. It's typically used to denote features that allow a product to be used by someone with a disability or impairment. This definition certainly applies to board games as well. You know, the one we talk about most easily of course is making sure that the game is colorblind accessible. But I think it's most interesting to think of accessibility as making your game sort of enjoyable for the widest possible audience. Not every game is going to work for, for everyone. Um, just due to how it, how it plays or you know, what its complexity is. But I think, you know, given what your game is and what it can be, there's all sorts of decisions you can make and how you actually create the final product that will make it most likely that you could hit a lot of that audience.

Randy Flynn (09:22):
For example, you know one thing is that there are games that have a lot of texts on their cards that you have to read to really understand how to play and you have to read it during the game. Some players that's a real turnoff. It's just something they don't want to be doing during a game. They kind of feel pulled back and forth now. So the question, you know, I asked myself in that situation is can I provide a similar experience without that text or with significantly less? Is there a way to do that? And some games there probably isn't. It's just core to how things work. But in others that text isn't really required there. It's just one way of approaching that problem. And you might be able to simplify that by moving, you know, the information somewhere else in the game. [Lauren: Right.] So, you know, I think that's one example anyway.

Lauren Woolsey (10:05):
So what decisions did you make in the game design process with accessibility in mind for Cascadia?

Randy Flynn (10:12):
Um, you know, I worry a lot about rules being too fiddly. Like I think this is something that there are a lot of people that's just there. There are people who love that they can play, you know, a big four hour Euro with a 20 page rule book and be just happy. But I, you know, I haven't designed a game for that audience at this point. And so I, I definitely worry about that a lot and, and think about it. [Lauren: Yeah.] So there are definitely rules we've considered, um, in Cascadia throughout the development that like seemed to make it work better, but they seem to put a little more burden on the players for understanding how things you know, are going to happen and what they have to remember during the game. And so some rules where you're like, "Oh, this would solve that problem, but it would introduce, you know, a little bit too much fiddliness," that is going to turn some people off and make it harder for some people to play the game properly or correctly.

Lauren Woolsey (11:01):
Yeah, there's always a tradeoff.

Randy Flynn (11:04):
Yeah, exactly. And so we've, we've rejected things pretty quickly sometimes because of that. It's like, Oh yeah, that sounds like a great idea that will solve this problem. I think, Oh yeah, it definitely solves this problem. And that it's like, okay, what's the impact on the game? Step back through it. I'm like, Hmm. No, it's, it's not worth it. It introduces too much risk.

Lauren Woolsey (11:23):
Right, yeah. It's, it's good to go through that process and consider the consequences of any, any change to the rules or the gameplay itself.

Randy Flynn (11:31):
And, ah, there's another one I had noted here about that, you know, the, the early land tiles that I had for Cascadia were not colorblind friendly and it's been a central part of our like discussion around what the final art and graphic design should be because you know, this is really important. And so, you know, the creature tokens right now are these chunkier wood pieces because they're easier for a broad set of people grab and arrange. And in addition, we keep the art on them. Incredibly simple compared to the land tiles that we've now added more texture to and a little more interest. And so, you know, trying to think both through, you know, how do we make this visually easy for people to grasp, just glance at their board and know what's going on and make it also easy for them to be able to, you know, play their pieces and maybe move them a little bit if they need to look under them for some reason, you know, that we hope they don't have to. So, you know, that's, these are kind of issues I've thought about through the prototype and we'll have to kind of think through again as we go through what the production, you know, issues will be and, you know, what the components for the final version will be.

Lauren Woolsey (12:31):
Yeah, absolutely. Now, what is your favorite part of the game? Either playing it or watching it played?

Randy Flynn (12:39):
Uh, I think there's a few different, I think there's a different answer for both of those. [Lauren: sure!] When I'm writing it, I, I actually like it when I look at the scoring conditions and think through it and can't really map out a complete strategy or I think I can and I start to, and it quickly is just, Nope, that's not entirely going to work. So I like it when the game pushes me in different directions basically. And I love it when just like there's a, you know, I have to do a slight shift of strategy based on what I'm seeing in the market and what other players are playing on their boards because that actually is more important than some players realize when they start, knowing what are the players around you are taking. So, you know, in the end, this is all built on that interlocking puzzle for the different scoring patterns. But that's what I think drives that for me. And it's really kind of the, the core of, of the fun that I get out of the game. Yeah.

Randy Flynn (13:28):
You know, it's funny when I, when I went to other people play it, it's more the moments that I, that I enjoy. And you'll see, you'll see things like bears in the current game. I don't know if it'll be this way when it ships tend to be the easiest creature to say, you know what, I'm taking a bear. There's a bear. I'm taking a bear. If there's a bear and I can play it, I will take, [Lauren laughs] they tend to be one of the easiest creatures to understand.

Lauren Woolsey (13:51):
I mean, who's going to say no to bears!

Randy Flynn (13:53):
Well, that's it. I'm not even sure how much of that is mechanics and how much of that is just psycology. Um, people like bears, you'll get people to start, you know, talking about bears. Not really, not really in any scientific way, but just in a kind of nonsense way and making up phrases, you know, there'll be people who will watch a market as someone's flipping it over and just like right before someone flips the tile, they'll go BEAR, you know, just like trying to will the bear into being, you know, and that lets me know, you know, that they're really engaged in the game and you know, and you just get some, some fun statements out of it. So,

Lauren Woolsey (14:26):
Yeah, for sure. I think one thing that I'm really excited about having kind of watched some of the progression of the design from when I got a chance to play your prototype at Gen Con to now is seeing how it's been pushed into this more like, here are a set of realistic animals and landscapes that exist in this particular location. Because you had a lot of different things going on that were interesting and they work together. But I'm really excited to see how that art and theme is really going to play through.

Randy Flynn (14:59):
Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to hear that. I think, uh, yeah, you probably played a version that had like maybe alligators and gorillas, [Lauren: yeah exactly (laughs)] creatures that didn't necessarily live in the same part of the world and all of that. And so, you know, I kind of made the decision after a while, I was like, I think, you know, really focusing at this on the Pacific Northwest is the way to go and started slowly shifting the creatures, you know, over to that so that every creature in there was something that you found in the Pacific Northwest, somewhere out here in Seattle area or Oregon, you know, up in British Columbia, et cetera. And so, you know, I pushed it hard in that direction and at the same time was working very much on, well, each creature has this scoring theme and the scoring theme is mechanical, but it also should be explainable in terms of the ecology.

Lauren Woolsey (15:49):
Yeah. You want it to feel like it makes sense.

Randy Flynn (15:51):
Exactly. And of course it's a game. It's not even a simulation. It's a game. So it doesn't need to be some sort of exact, you know, that. But if you can evoke that feeling, I mean, like one of the ones we have is every hawk scoring condition has hawks just being off on their own. Well, of course, hawks spend time together, but the truth is you mostly see hawks when they're out on their own doing their thing. And so that's kind of how we came up with the fact that, well, hawks scoring conditions are about hawks not being near the other hawks. [Lauren: laughs] And from that we've generated, you know, three or four different, you know, interesting and unique scoring conditions still fit that theme. So that was a, you know, it was fun to kind of do that. And I think, um, as we brought that in, you know, eventually that led us to both, you know, working with Beth Sobel who is maybe perhaps one of the best board game artists, if not the best board game artists that you know, depicting the Pacific Northwest, uh, hard to pick better than that. And really talking about the name and trying to figure out what we were going to call it and making sure that we, it really did evoke the Pacific Northwest 'cause we decided pretty early on, you know, to not just paper that theme over it, but really, really lean into it pretty hard because there's not, not really a lot of games that are doing that with that with our region. Anyway.

Lauren Woolsey (17:06):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. And for our listeners who over the course of this episode have started to look forward to it as much as me, where will it be available? What's the plan for it?

Randy Flynn (17:16):
So the plan is to bring Cascadia to Kickstarter in 2020. It's going to be published by Flatout Games. The best thing interested listeners can do is sign up for Flatout's mailing list, and they're at www . flatout . games and you can go on there to their contact page and add yourself to their mailing list.

Lauren Woolsey (17:36):
Perfect. We'll make sure to have that link. And if listeners want to find you on social media, where can they find you?

Randy Flynn (17:42):
For gaming purposes, I am on Twitter at R F underscore Seattle (@rf_seattle).

Lauren Woolsey (17:48):
Perfect. Well this was a fantastic conversation. I can't wait to back the game on Kickstarter and thank you so much for, for having a conversation with me.

Randy Flynn (17:57):
Well, thank you for having me on Lauren, and thank you for playing the prototype at Gen Con. I really enjoyed that and enjoyed talking with you here this evening.

Lauren Woolsey (18:05):
For more information about the topics that we discussed in this episode and the links that we just mentioned, we'll have those in the about this episode section on our website at playabilitypod.com and if our listeners have any questions or comments that you'd like to share with us, please email us at playabilitypod at gmail.com and find us on major social media platforms as @playabilitypod. Thanks again for listening, play with a new perspective.