Lauren: 00:20 Hello and welcome back to Playability where we hold conversations at the crossroads of game-play and accessibility. I'm your host Lauren Woolsey, and I'm here today with Dave Sensinig who's going to talk to us about his design, Carroll County Cake Swap. Good to have you on, Dave. Dave: 00:24 Hey Lauren, thanks for having me. Lauren: 00:26 All right, so tell me about this game's backstory. Dave: 00:29 So, it came out of a little group that I was attending here in Frederick, Maryland that does prototyping of compute, they were doing prototyping of computer games at the time, and I was just coming up with a concept so that we could put something down on note cards and do some play testing and it ended up turning into what would become Carroll County Cake Swap. And it just had such a great time creating this game that it just kind of went from you know, "Hey, this is something fun we can do it this evening," to, "Oh, maybe people would actually like to buy this and I could bring a product to market." Lauren: 01:05 That's always a fun revelation to have. Is this your first finished game that you've designed? Dave: 01:12 It is. Yes. Lauren: 01:13 If this started out as a sort of, let's just try this tonight and it came to a fully fledged game and I saw you with a booth and everything at UnPub, can you walk me through the game's development path? Like what kind of milestones did you, did you hit as you were going through its development? Dave: 01:31 Sure. Well it started out as a very abstract game. I was just interested in the concept of layers and being restricted as to what you could play later in the game based on what you'd played earlier. And I wasn't sure what direction to go with the theme. I was initially thinking something like tower building, maybe like a pagoda or something where you're, you're getting progressively smaller levels each time and people really were interested in the idea of cake when I kind of suggested that as an alternative. Lauren: 02:01 That's certainly a more fun and unique theme I think. Dave: 02:06 Yeah. And you know, that's, that's just kind of one way I think thematically that accessibility played into the development of the game was kind of a nerdy like mindset of like a mathematical approach to it. And people really more into this kind of shared experience. So then when I was initially thinking, okay, it'll be, it'll be cake. Then it was like, well, what's the context? You know, are these wedding cakes? Are you building a shop and selling cakes and I'm a big fan of The Great British Bake Off. And so Lauren: 02:38 Oh, who isn't? Lauren: 02:38 the idea of kind of like, you know, and a competition that's kind of like friendly, like you know, you want to win but you're also just doing it to enter to have fun. And I thought people really connected with that. And so that kind of led me to the style of game-play and everything was really good. How people wanted to interact with the game. And I kind of let that lead some of the mechanics and the rules to really end up with what it is today. Lauren: 03:05 So what are the primary mechanics at this game uses? Dave: 03:09 Sure. So it is a tiling card game. So you're actually creating a tiered cake by overlapping these cards that you're either drawing from a deck or the mechanic that's kind of the most fun is that you get to draft cards the other people have discarded, so you don't have a hand of cards. You either have to play something immediately onto your cake platter or you have to give it into this kind of general area where anybody can take it and you're building different patterns. And so obviously you want to have a cake that looks really good and it's going to get you the most points, but sometimes making your own cake really good is giving something away to somebody else. And I just loved watching the tension of people kind of figuring out like, I don't need this, but somebody else does and can I bear to give this up if it's going to cost me points and maybe give them a big boost. Lauren: 04:02 Yeah, those sound like some really good choices to make. Dave: 04:04 Yeah. Yeah. It really, um, as a neat level to the, the kind of randomness, there's give some control to it. And then there's, there's ribbons that you get from building your cakes and so, while each type of cake pattern is worth points. You can only build each exact pattern and size of cake once per games. It really forces you to change up your game-play throughout the game. And it also allows you to, to go after other people and has some kind of subtle take that if you're really keeping an eye on your opponents then you can, ummm, well hopefully you can do it to them, but they might also do it to you. Stealing away a ribbon or something that you're going after. Lauren: 04:46 Right? Absolutely. So at the end of the game, you're looking for just how many ribbons you were able to collect? Dave: 04:53 So, you're looking for a total point value. So the game ends if somebody reaches 31 or more points and so it, it gets a little bit mathy in that way. There's some, it's not easy to get 31 right away. The way that the ribbons are distributed, there's a large variance in how many points the ribbons are worth. And you know, there's a limited number of cards to the deck. And so you really have to not only just kind of draw on hope you get lucky, but you have to craft carefully in order to be able to, to make it. Lauren: 05:26 Very neat. So we should turn now to the focus of Playability. And you've mentioned it once already, but the question that we ask all of our guests, what does accessibility mean to you? Dave: 05:37 So for me, accessibility is really about taking on other people's perspectives. And one of the reasons why I'm so fascinated by the topic is through my day job as an instructional designer, I have had a lot of exposure to different concepts of accessibility and Universal Design. And whenever you're creating a product, knowing your audience and designing for them is really, is really crucial. And I think, you know, we're gradually becoming more and more aware of who that audience is and expanding that audience. And so to me, you know, accessibility means designing for the fringes that might not always get that focus, but really designing for everybody in every context and thinking about where people might be playing games and who might be playing those games. So, yeah. So those are a lot of the factors that were kind of in the back of my mind as I made decisions in developing the game. Lauren: 06:36 Certainly. Do you have any specific examples of decisions you made in the game design process with accessibility in mind? Dave: 06:44 Sure. So you know, one of the things I think is most easy for people to grasp is color blindness. You know, games are very visual and that's one that people are very familiar with. And this game, color is a very critical part of the game play. You have different colors of frosting that you're using to make your patterns and your cake. So you need to be able to tell the difference between the red, the orange, the yellow, the green, and the blue if you going to be able to, to make a meaningful cake and gets points. So, you know, I wanted it to be pretty, I wanted it to be attractive, but I also knew right away that it was going to have to communicate the different types to different people. So I used different shaped fruit on top of the frosting in order to provide some additional context in case somebody had trouble working out the colors. Dave: 07:32 And what was interesting to me was that that level of accessibility was really not just important for people who are, have different types of, you know, colorblindness. But it was really helpful for normally sighted people as well. I struggled a lot to get my red and my orange to look different and I would advise anybody who's played testing games to do it in like different lighting settings because Lauren: 07:58 Oh, absolutely. Dave: 07:58 we went to a bar and it was like, oh, on my bright monitor at home, it was very obvious that these are two different colors and then you get into like a dim bar and you're looking across the table and there's kind of a glare on the cards because they're shiny or whatever. Like you realize how important it is to, like use a large font, or really provide enough contrast or use different texture or whatever to make these things stand out. Lauren: 08:22 Yeah. And they benefit everybody. Right. Dave: 08:25 Exactly. Not just for those people who need it, but like everybody, it kind of, it decreases your cognitive load if you can just glance at something easily and go, oh yeah, I know what that's for. Lauren: 08:38 Yeah, absolutely. Now you mentioned that you teach about Universal Design. Can you define that quickly for our listeners? Dave: 08:44 Yeah, so I don't actually teach it, but I have through my education, uh, learned a little bit about it and it's really just the principle of designing in ways are beneficial to everybody. And so, you know, we typically think of accessibility I think as something that's going to be helpful for somebody who has a disability or like I said, you know, maybe in a group that isn't as mainstream, but the principles of Universal Design are really that everybody benefits from good design. And you know, going back again to that perspective, it's really, you know, when, when you're making it easier for some people you can make it easier for a lot of people. And this really came home to me, I did an internship with the National Association of Home Builders, which was, they had some elements of really physical accessibility and house building and you know, things like having a lever on a door knob instead of, you know, a knob like it's yeah, it can be helpful for somebody who has arthritis or who has a difficult time grasping a knob. Dave: 09:47 And it's also helpful if you've got like a bag of groceries in your hand. Right. So, Lauren: 09:53 Right, yeah. Dave: 09:53 We're all, we all have needs in different ways. And so I think looking at it as kind of a way to benefit people universally rather than just a certain population can be really helpful. Lauren: 10:06 Awesome. Now with the way you designed your game and the mechanics involved, who did you picture as your target audience? Dave: 10:15 You know, I don't know that I really had one initially, but as it developed, again it was, there was something that like seem to bring everybody together about the theme of cake. And I think it has a particular appeal to, it has a bit of a youthful nature to it and it's got pastels, it's pretty, it's about frosting and baking. Dave: 10:48 But I also wanted to do it in a way that wasn't pandering to any group. And so it's like I tried to have a little bit more of adult style to the artwork, but I wanted to have representation across all age groups and ethnicities and genders and everything in the, in the characters as well because this is the kind of thing that I think everybody can appreciate. You know, everybody enjoys a good contest in the local community and everybody likes cake. So I, I just, I found too that people, grandparents, families, teenage friends, like the different types of people that have played the game and like gotten into it always surprises me. Lauren: 11:33 That's always fun. What would you say is your favorite part of the game as you're playing it, or as you're watching the players play? Dave: 11:41 Yeah, I'm a very experiential player in games and and so I just, I love that tension of watching somebody picks something up and have to figure out what they're going to do it. I also like when something just like serendipitous happens and somebody's been holding out for the perfect piece and they don't think that they're going to get it and then like they draw the one thing that they need and that scores them the victory or honestly like I also a little bit of schadenfreude and like you'll see somebody who has been like waiting for like four turns for the perfect piece that they want and then they like are just like, oh, I'm just going to turn in the cake the way it is now and give up. And then like they get the piece the very next turn. It's just, I love all the unexpectedness of the emotional experiences that people have in playing the game. You know, more than any kind of like strategery. Lauren: 12:32 Definitely. That is what I think we all come to the table for is, is to have that connection with people and to have those experiences. So, it sounds like a lot of fun. For our listeners who are interested in getting a copy of the game, where can they get a copy? Dave: 12:46 So right now it is available on the Jealous Cat Games website, www.jealouscatgames.com I do have a limited number of prints available right now because I did a small print run, but it will be coming to Kickstarter at the end of July. So, if you're listening to this in the future and there are no more available online, please sign up for the email list and I can let you know when the Kickstarter comes out. Lauren: 13:12 Perfect. And how can people connect with you on social media? Dave: 13:16 I am on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and it's all Jealous Cat Games. So if you type that in you should find me. Lauren: 13:24 Well Dave, thank you so much for talking with me today about Carroll County Cake Swap and I look forward to playing it. Dave: 13:30 Awesome. Thank you. Laura. Lauren: 13:33 Have a good one. Dave: 13:34 You to. Lauren: 13:35 For more information about the topics that we discussed in this episode and the links that we just mentioned. We'll have those in the, about this episode section on our website, at http://PlayabilityPod.com and if our listeners have any questions or comments that you would like to share with us, please email us at PlayabilityPod@gmail.com and find us on major social media platforms as @PlayabilityPod. Thanks again for listening. Play with a new perspective.