Lauren W.: 00:10 Hello and welcome back to Playability where we hold conversations at the crossroads of Gameplay and Accessibility. I'm your host, Lauren Woolsey. And I'm here today with Michael Melkonian to talk about Dance Card from Cardboard Console. Welcome, Michael. Michael M.: 00:24 Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation. Lauren W.: 00:27 Yeah, so let's start out with what this game's backstory is. Michael M.: 00:31 Yeah, so the game, I thought about a game that would have a large cast. That's something I really wanted to do. That was sort of the selling point that popped into my head. You know, there's lots of games out there, I don't know, Arkham Horror that has a ton of characters that you can play as, but you don't play at them all at once and you don't have relationships between them. So that was the first thing I wanted a game that had like a lot of standees out on the board at the same time. And they all related to each other in different ways. Some of them liked each other, some of them didn't like each other. Some of them have crushes on each other. That was the original idea before I even had a theme necessarily. And then the idea of a school dance kind of popped up. Michael M.: 01:06 So the setting of Dance Card is that it takes place during a high school dance and you play one of the 32 students out on the board. And like I said, all 32 students are out on the board doesn't mean you have 32 players at that moment. It just means they're all out on the board and you get a dance card, which is a card that shows yourself your character, your friends, your dance partners, you know, the, you know, their crushes, their friends, your rivals, you know, like just the whole, like, like 16 characters that are featured on every dance card. And I - that was the idea that really like drew me to it. The idea of this interconnectivity of these different characters. So using that as the springboard came up with the idea of high school dance. And then just from there, you know, the idea was coming up with the characters and the artwork for that and everything went into that. Michael M.: 01:50 I reached out to the community, the Facebook community, a board, different board game groups. I started posting like prototype ideas for characters and stuff and I got a really big response from people who wanted to, you know, comment on the pair style, the clothing, you know, oh this character looks like my kid for example. You know, so there was this whole thing where people really attached to the characters and the theme and the, you know, the style and the, and the idea of like kids at a dance and everything. And that's where having 32 students really paid off because you have this, it had these 32 students that have to all look different from each other, right? Because with all those standees out on the board and into like, you know, within a second, just [Lauren: be recognizable] to recognize them right away. So you know, they couldn't all be one gender, one race, one hair color. Michael M.: 02:35 It all had to be very different. And because of that, it sort of drew this audience that was very interested in seeing [Lauren: themselves in the game] diversity and representation, yeah, and seeing themselves in the game. Exactly. Like, I mean, so many characters in this game are people told me like that's how I looked in high school or that's how I look now, or that's what my kid looks like or you know, whatever. So that was sort of the, how the community kind of came around and that's the backstory, how it sort of, I don't know, got popular among strangers. Um, and now and now we're pretty close to launching, so Lauren W.: 03:07 That's fabulous. So for the games development path, what kind of timeline do you have? How long have you been working on it? [Michael: whew!] Yeah, Michael M.: 03:15 It's been a while. Probably longer than it needs to be. You know, that's one of the things when you're starting out, you know, you have, you know, a full time job, family, things like that. So it's very difficult to do a game that, you know, I don't know Hasbro could put out within a year, right? Like this, we've been working on this for probably like three and a half years, maybe close to four. And, and that means like from the idea phase till now, not necessarily [Lauren: sure] the game hasn't been finished for four years, but I've been working on it for a while and, um, just kind of fine tuning different things. I mean one of the things that people talk a lot about obviously, and that I think we're going to talk about and we should talk about is the diversity angle and the characters and everything. Michael M.: 03:45 But, the gameplay itself has gone through a lot of iteration and play testing and just the mechanics of how these different relationships translate into game play. So for example, you look at your card, oh I'm a kid in high school, I have a rival, I have a crush. Okay, well what does that mean in gameplay terms? Right? So the rivals give you, you know, penalties to dice rolls, you know, uh, your friends give you bonuses. So, taking the theme but also making that make sense in terms of a game, 'cause at the end of the day, it's a game first. That took a while, especially with not being able to devote, you know, 100% of your time and energy to it. [Lauren: mm-hmm] But I think we've gotten to a place now where it's really nice. I would hope so after all the time [Lauren: (laughs)] you've spent on it. But yeah, so I'm happy to say that the game play and the theme and the story and the world all both have kind of arrived at a place that I'm very happy with and I'm, and one thing that's changed big time actually is the first time I'm saying this publicly. [Lauren: ooh] Michael M.: 04:37 Well, I mean people might know this by the time this podcast goes live, but this is the first time saying it out loud. The game was developed as a competitive game this entire time, you know? [Lauren: mm-hmm] But in the last like month or two, we've developed a solo and co-op mode [Lauren: ooh] that I think is going to definitely broaden the audience for it. Especially when you talk about a game that's all about inclusion and, and things like that. It kind of makes sense that the game play would also be inclusive rather than just being like, all right, you're these inclusive, you know, it's an inclusive game. You're a device, a diverse school of kids, everybody loves each other [Lauren: (laughs)] and they have to compete and need to be the first one to win. So now you have the option to do it as a group and help each other out and stuff. And I think that's going to hopefully open it up to a bigger audience that maybe it didn't have before. Lauren W.: 05:16 Yeah, absolutely. So the goal of the game is to, um, dance with the three different partners on your card. How do players reach that goal? What are the mechanics that they're using? Michael M.: 05:27 Yeah, so when you get your dance card, it'll show your character on the upper left hand corner, directly under you, like in a column are three other portraits on the card. And those are your dance partners. They kind of, they're listed from easiest to hardest in terms of like, um, how you have to impress them and all that, right? [Lauren: (laughs)] And the way, um, success is determined is through dice rolls. So, for example, you know, your first dance partner will say something like, you have to roll at least a three to succeed, right? And that's a very simple one. You can do that without really any strategy pretty much. Um, the second two, it's like you have to have a certain number, but then you also have to have certain symbols that are only on other dice that you have to get through other means. And then the third one is like a really high number with multiple symbols you have to get. Michael M.: 06:04 So, and the symbols kind of represent different dance moves. [Lauren: mm-hmm] So, [Lauren: (laughs)] um, if you've ever played Elder Sign, it's kind of like they are trying to resolve these like icon requirements via dice rolls. So you know, that's the mechanics of the game. Now the way you, and I know a lot of people are gonna Think, oh, dice rolls randomness. I hate that. You know, [Lauren: (laughs)] euro gamers, they kind of don't like that, but it's not pure random. The dice rolls can be mitigated because what you're also doing during the game is getting these smooth moves cards, which represent different dance moves or techniques you can do to, you know, impress or entice your partner and those mitigate the dice roll. So maybe you don't roll what you need, but then you can throw down this card that changes your result to something else you do need. Michael M.: 06:44 So there's a lot of planning and strategy you can do. It's not just, uh, you know, a random dice throwing game. So that's your relationship to your partners. You also have your best friends. You know, in high school everybody had their crew, right? [Lauren: (laughs)] Having your friends in the same space as you when you're trying to dance, gives you, uh, dice bonuses, different kinds of bonuses. Also, each of your partners has their own friends and you can go talk to them off the dance floor, like can go to the refreshments or to the bleachers or whatever and you can like talk to them and they'll give you some advice. Like, Hey, you know, you know my buddy really likes when, you know, somebody does X, Y, and Z. So they give you a bonus. [Lauren: ahh] And, so, so, there's all kinds of different ways that um, you can like mitigate your roll. Michael M.: 07:23 So, it's not just blind dice rolling. And the thing that I really like is, so for example, your dance partner, if, let's say that dance partner two friends who are their contacts that you go talk to to get the bonuses. If you ever draw the dance card for that character, let's say you're playing that character, you're playing that character who is your dance partner. In this example, [Lauren: mm-hmm] your two friends will be those two contacts. So, it's the same throughout the whole game. The relationships are the same, the characters are not random. They have relationships that are always the same. So maybe you know, one day you're playing a character and you see, oh my rival is Zoe. Let's say for example, right? [Lauren: mm-hmm] One day you'll play as Zoe and you'll find out that your rival is the character you were just playing [Lauren: Yeah (laughs)] as in the next game, in the last game. Michael M.: 08:02 So everything is very consistent. The world is real. I really wanted to create like a real world like, right. Like any, you think of any like, I don't know, high school based show you watched growing up or something or you know, [Lauren: sure, okay] I can't think of any right now, Dawson's creek, Degrassi, whatever. Right? Like the characters all had established relationships, right? Riverdale, whatever. So that was something that I really wanted to establish in the theme that also had gameplay ramifications, which was very big for me. You know, the game plan, the theme working together because one thing I've gotten from people was like, oh man, the artwork is so great. The theme is really awesome. I love the diversity. But is there a game there? [Lauren: (laughs)] Like is this just, are you just trying to be cute and like, yes, there's absolutely a game there. Like, you know, I'm definitely, I'm not, this is not a, I don't, I don't want to call it, it's not a casual game. Michael M.: 08:44 It's not a filler game. It's definitely like a strategy game. It's a lightweight strategy game. You know, something that I think, you know, kids and new gamers can get into, but it's still very much, you know, a strategy game and it's a game that, you know, if you like, I don't know, Pandemic, Scythe, whatever, like these are some games I like, right, [Lauren: mm-hmm] you'll like this game 'cause it's a real game. So, that's actually been weirdly one of the hurdles I've had to get over, you know, even though the artwork and everything brought the community together, going outside of the community to entice people, they kind of give it the side-eye a little bit [Lauren: (laughs)] because they're like, oh is this like a cutesy little game, is this game for like little girls? Like what's it for? And it's like, no, it's a real game. You know? And if you're not paying attention to what you're doing, you'll lose. [Lauren: (laughs)] Michael M.: 09:19 So anyway, so that's, that's that. Lauren W.: 09:23 That's awesome! Now before we get too much further, we should get to the question that we ask all of our guests, which is what does accessibility mean to you? Michael M.: 09:29 Yeah, so this is something that I take very seriously. That was definitely on my mind, but not at the forefront because it's so kind of ingrained in the way I think about things anyway. And I think that's something worth talking about. So, just to answer the question. Accessibility to me is you think of someone when you're designing a thing. So when I'm sitting down to write a game, design or, you know, write a story or whatever, I want whoever comes to that thing and experiences that thing, consumes that thing to think like, oh that person knew I existed. So I don't want, you know, for example, someone from the LGBT community or like a person of color to come to the game and be like, Oh this guy, he designed a game but he didn't really like, it didn't cross his mind that like someone like me would play this game or whatever. Michael M.: 10:11 That's something I want to get rid of. I want people to come to the game and be like, oh this dude, you know, probably, you know, has gay friends, you know, whatever. Like you know, like, you know what I mean? [Lauren: (laughs)] Knows what the, knows what the community is like and everything. I don't feel alienated from this thing. I feel like I'm definitely, you know, inclusive 'cause by the way, I didn't mention this, but you know, the different dance partners you can have, we do have, you know, same-sex dance partners and, and mix where some people have both. So you have characters that are, you know, if you're, if you're taking dancing to mean, you know, interests like romantic interests, then you know, we have characters who are, you know, gay or bi or whatever. So that's something that I didn't even really think twice about. Michael M.: 10:45 It was just something that naturally I put into the game. But other people saw it as like, oh man, like this is something that really like means a lot. And they really gravitated towards it. And I thought that was really, uh, meant a lot to me. One of the things I wanted to bring up was how, the lack of that is something that really frustrates me in the board game design community. You know, I'm part of a lot of different Facebook groups and things that deal with design and think and design theory, stuff like that. And somebody else - I saw a thread recently, somebody posted, you know, how much do you take into account diversity and inclusion in your themes when you're coming up with games? And like most of the answers were like, you know, not at all. Or you know, I just, you know, it's almost like a badge of honor, you know, I just, I care about game play, everything else doesn't matter, theme doesn't matter, you know, it's like they almost say it proudly, you know, [Lauren: mm hmm] and one guy, I remember one answer really stood out to me. Michael M.: 11:30 This guy said, I only designed abstract games because then I don't have to worry about that. And that sentence really stood out to me [Lauren: mm hmm] because instead of thinking of it as an opportunity, as something, hey, here's something cool that I can do, here's something that like, not enough people are doing that I can do that I can reach a certain audience, you know, hopefully, it's seen as a problem, right? There's a problem that I've got to find a way to work in characters that aren't like me or like not like my community. And the thing that I'm doing that's clever is finding a way around that problem. And that to me was very disheartening, you know, instead of seeing it, you know, there's a great line in Guardians of the Galaxy [Lauren: (laughs)] where, uh, I don't know if you know the line I'm thinking of, but you know, Star Lord is trying to hype up the team and Star Lord says, you know, we're given a chance and Rocket says a chance to do what and Star Lord says, you know, to give a, you know, shi-. [Lauren: (laughs)] Michael M.: 12:15 And that's the, that's kind of how I approach things, is like if you're making a game or writing a book or working on a TV show, you're given an opportunity to do something that has a platform, you know, and the platform is going to be consumed by humans, right? [Lauren: (laughs)] So, why wouldn't we want to include as many humans as possible in that? You see, that's the thing, like it comes so naturally to me that I didn't even like, I'll give you a quick example. So, the very, very first prototype of Dance Card, I had characters who had same sex, you know, dance partners and I play tested the very first play test I did was with my two friends, Adam and Aaron who happened to be gay and happened to be in a relationship together, they're boyfriends and I just played tested the game for them completely - Michael M.: 12:49 - like it didn't even occur to me like, oh, so I've got characters here who have same sex interests and my friends are in a relationship. And like I just played it. And I remember seeing like my friend Adam, he started tearing up as we were playing and I was like, wait, what's going on? And he's like, well, you have a character here named Adam who has, you know, you know, uh, same-sex, or guy as a dance partner. And then just, I've never seen that in the game. So that kind of thing, like it really meant something to me. And the idea that there's designers out there who are actively trying to avoid that, who, who think that's a problem, who, who don't want to take out the time to include something like that. To me that was very disheartening. So I wanted to make something for players where they could feel included, that I thought of them ahead of time, that I'm not someone who's like a, you know, an outsider to their life experience that I, that I definitely value them as you know, people in society. Michael M.: 13:35 So anyway, that's my really long winded answer [Lauren: (laughs)]to what I think accessibility means, but I just thought it was important to put that out there because I feel like a lot of designers, a lot of times do think about that, but a lot of designers don't like, I mean, you know, games like, you know, Fog of Love, definitely think about that. I think designers, like, you know, Nikki Valens definitely think about that. So I'm not saying that people don't, I'm not special. I mean there's people out there think of that, but there's definitely a large contingent of people who don't think that way. And I feel like I need to do something to try and, you know, move that needle a little bit. Lauren W.: 14:05 Yeah, definitely. We need more people like you that treat inclusion as a default and as an opportunity rather than something to have to deal with. Um, [Michael: yeah] I really liked the way that you described that. Michael M.: 14:15 Yeah. It's something I'm very passionate about. So I kinda [Michael, Lauren: (laugh)] got loud about it and kind of got very verbose. But you know, it means a lot to me, you know, cause I've kinda been on both sides of it, you know, in my own personal life, you know? Uh, so it means a lot. And not just in, by the way, not just that one thing. I know I've talked a lot about the same sex thing, but obviously like there's a lot of different ethnicity. We have Asian characters, you know, black characters, Hispanic characters. We have, you know, a lot of the game play itself was designed to use symbols in conjunction with colors. That way if there's a color blind player, okay, maybe they can't tell the difference between like green and blue or something. But each color has its own symbol so they can still play the game. Michael M.: 14:48 So accessibility goes beyond just the, what I was talking with, you know, the LGBT community. It also encompasses every other community that I could think of. And we even have, you know, a character who is, for example, in a wheelchair in the game, right, you know, it's a dance game. You know, when people think about dancing, they don't think about people who are, you know, their legs are impaired, right? Because the whole point of dancing is that you're on your feet, right? So including a character who's in a wheelchair, for example, who now someone, because I know people in my own gaming community, my own gaming groups who are wheelchair bound. That's who they are and they, they love board games and we play with them all the time. And I wanted to give them the character where they can like, oh look, I can be at a dance, [Lauren: (laughs)] which may be something that society doesn't think about. You know, because you know, when you think someone in a wheelchair, they can't be at a dance, but there's people in wheelchairs. We go to dances all the time. So anyway, I think I've, [Lauren: (laughs)] I think I've heard enough about that. [Michael, Lauren: (laugh)] Lauren W.: 15:32 Yeah. I think through the course of your answers to the previous questions we've seen, how you incorporated the ideas of accessibility and inclusion already. So how about what your favorite part of the game is? What? What's your favorite part? Michael M.: 15:44 My favorite part of the game is the storytelling that kind of happens around the table. So, there's different locations on the board, right? There's the dance. So, first of all the, we should know is that the setting of the dance is the school gymnasium. You know what I've learned from, you know, nineties high school movies is that the school dance always takes place in the gym that gets converted to a dance floor, right? So, the main floor is like the basketball court that's gotten turned into like a dance floor. And then off to the sides you have the bleachers that have kind of been converted into like, you know, where there's tables and drinks and soda and you know, cake and stuff. And then you have like off to the side, you have like the janitor's office and you've got like the restrooms and each of those is a space, is a location that you can move the standees and each of them has their own game mechanics related to them. Michael M.: 16:23 So for example, obviously the dance floor is where you perform the dance actions, the bleachers and the refreshments and like the side areas. That's where you do your social actions, where you can talk to people and get bonuses. And then things that are really off to the side, like the restrooms and the janitor's office. That's kind of where you go to like be alone for a little bit, kind of, you know, regroup your thoughts and kind of hype yourself up to go back on the floor and gameplay wise that you get rid of your failed dance rolls that way. So, they'll have different gameplay mechanics, but my favorite thing about it is that all those locations have different sort of storytelling components to them. So, for example, like, you know, 'cause you're not controlling all the characters at once and the characters kind of sit around for a while until you move them or a game mechanic uses them. Michael M.: 16:56 And some characters might just be in the restroom the entire game. [Lauren: (laughs)] And every time I've played, you know, people talk about like, oh, you know, why is, you know, I don't know Ricky in the restroom, what's his problem? Why has he been in there for so long? [Lauren: (laughs)] Or you know, two characters might randomly end up in the janitor's closet. And that, you know, opens the tone, [Lauren: (laughs)] like a little storytelling, you know, possibilities. So, people around the dance floor kind of telling their own stories and making up relationships with the characters or feeding off the relationships that are there. For example, I played a, I did a play test where two players happen to be each other's dance partner. Like you know, uh, so this one was trying to dance with this one and this one was trying to dance with the other one. So one of them went in, danced with the other player, and then tried to book it across the board. Michael M.: 17:34 So the other one couldn't dance with them. [Lauren: oh (laughs)] So in the game, you know this, you're just trying to impress the other one, dance with them, whatever. But the player of that character was like, no, I don't want you to win so I'm gonna try and get away from you. So they were kind of chasing each other around the board and like telling the story of like, well why are they chasing each other on the board? So just kind of like, you know, projecting your own thoughts and then, uh [Lauren: yeah, bringing that extra layer], building a story onto that, yeah. [Lauren: yeah]. Oh which, by the way, that actually was not even on my radar at all when I, when I designed it that for whatever reason I didn't think of that. But then every time I play tested, that's always happened. People have always [Lauren: (laughs)] come up with their own stories and laughing around the table. And that's, I mean, if I'm being completely honest, it's not really the type of player I am. I'm a very like, very serious player. You know, [Lauren: hm] I put my head down and try to figure out a strategy and so the idea that I designed a game that lends itself to that is kind of amusing to me and I'm very happy about it because people really seem to enjoy that. Lauren W.: 18:20 Yeah, that's absolutely awesome. From everything that I've seen leading up to, I know your Kickstarter's coming up soon, [Michael: yeah, September 24th] the artwork and theme have definitely been the thing that I find most memorable. Is that also what you found in your experience? Michael M.: 18:35 Yeah. You know, if I'm being honest, the gameplay itself is pretty unique. I can't think of, and I'm not saying this because I'm biased it's my game. I mean I really can't, like, I don't know. Is it an action selection? Is it, is it, you know, a worker placement? Is it, you know, area control? I really don't know what kind of game it is because I've never seen a game that quite has this mechanic of like all these characters having all these different relationships with each other and using those to like win the game. Like I just, I haven't seen that. So I don't know what to call it gameplay wise. [Lauren: (laughs)] So the gameplay is pretty unique. I really don't want to, you know, gloss over that. I do feel like the gameplay's very important and very unique. But yeah, definitely the theme and the look of it, you know? Lauren W.: 19:09 It's nice to have a good table presence, yeah. Michael M.: 19:10 Exactly. Yeah, the look of it like you know, that's one thing I've noticed that when I was at Gencon or any, I go to any like store or whatever, when I open up the game, just put it on a table. People notice there's something about the vibrant colors popping out, all the different standees, all the unique looking characters. Like it just really jumps out at you when you walk past it, even if it's not the kind of game you would normally play, right? [Lauren: (laughs)] So, that is something that has definitely paid off, I think, you know, the, just the, the visual look of the game has really grabbed people's attention. So you know, come for the themes, stay for the game play I guess. New Speaker: 19:40 Perfect. Perfect. We'll make sure to get your social media links in the 'about this episode', part [Michael: good!] of this section, but to wrap up our conversation with our listeners, if they're interested in getting a copy of this game, when and where will it be available? Michael M.: 19:54 It's going to be launching on Kickstarter September 24th so please be there. You can also join our community on Facebook. If you just search Dance Card community, you'll find a group that has like a bunch of members. [Lauren: we'll have that link too] that's our, yeah, so that's our, that's our group so you can go there and just talk with me and whoever else. There's lots of places to get info on the game, but definitely September 24th we're launching on Kickstarter. Please check us out. Lauren W.: 20:16 Perfect. Well thank you so much for coming on today and have a wonderful day. Michael M.: 20:20 Thanks you too. Lauren W.: 20:21 For more information about the topics that we discussed in this episode and the links that we just mentioned. We'll have those in the 'about this episode' section on our website @playabilitypod.com and if our listeners have any questions or comments that you'd like to share with us, please email us @playabilitypodatgmail.com and find us on major social media platforms as @playabilitypod. Thanks again for listening. Play with a new perspective.