------------------------------------------------------------------ Playability Podcast Episode 30: Suzanne Sheldon Run time: 13 minutes, 35 seconds Episode recorded by Rebecca Strang. Playability is produced by Mike Risley. Transcript auto-generated by Temi and edited by Rebecca Strang. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Intro Music: 00:00 Rebecca Strang: 00:09 Hello and welcome to Playability where we hold conversations at the crossroads of gameplay and accessibility. I'm your host, Rebecca Strang, and I'm joined today by Suzanne Sheldon, an avid pie lover, and most importantly, a big advocate for inclusivity and diversity in board games. She's a coordinator for GenCant and a cohost on Dice Tower Podcast. Welcome to the show, Suzanne. Suzanne Sheldon: 00:33 Thank you so much for that. I honestly have to say, I think that's the best introduction I've ever had on a show, so thank you, Rebecca. Rebecca Strang: 00:41 You're welcome. So let's first talk a little bit about what is your favorite thing about gaming? Suzanne Sheldon: 00:48 Is it really gonna be that way? Am I going to have to select just one thing? There's so many things! I love, I love the mental challenge and I love the social element to board gaming, and those two things coming together are magic to me. Rebecca Strang: 01:02 Yeah, I'd have to agree. Those are probably my two favorite things, especially that social aspect. So getting into accessibility for you, what does accessibility and inclusivity in tabletop gaming look like to you? Suzanne Sheldon: 01:17 I think they're pretty distinct in some ways. Of course there's some overlap, but to me accessibility is about access more than anything else. And so when I think of accessibility, I think in terms of elements of the game that are barriers to visually impaired individuals or hearing impaired individuals or individuals with motor control challenges. And I also think there's accessibility issues in terms of financial accessibility and the expense and cost of the hobby that we all know and love. When it comes to inclusivity, I think in terms of representation and engagement. So to me inclusivity is about ensuring end to end from the board game getting created to the people who are sitting at the table; that people feel acknowledged, recognized and welcomed no matter what their personal demographics are. And I think that that's for me personally as a non white woman who's been in this hobby for 25 years or more now that is just absolutely risen to the top is something that's very close to my heart. Rebecca Strang: 02:32 Yeah, definitely. When it comes to inclusivity, what are some things that you are seeing at our hobby conventions that are moving us in the right direction as far as welcoming people across the spectrum into these spaces? Suzanne Sheldon: 02:47 I think there is a lot of things and I love that board game conventions or analog game conventions are more and more recognizing that being inclusive benefits them and benefits the industry. I think it be relatively simple things like family days where typically on a Sunday registered attendees can bring extra family members as well under their docket. I think you see things like code of conduct policies and harassment policies that are clearly posted and visible to ensure that everybody who's attending know that there are some baseline social rules of engagement at the event that are designed to protect attendees from problems and that they will be upheld and I think that that is a huge step, but quite frankly, three years ago you would not have seen at some of the major board game conventions and this past year I think you see them at a lot. I also think that in general I'm seeing more publishers make an effort to ensure that their booth staff represents as wide a demographic base as is feasible. Of course there are a lot of challenges to that that are practical and tactical. But I like that I'm going into conventions and I'm seeing a slight uptick in the diversity that both the attendees and the booth operators demonstrate. Rebecca Strang: 04:04 Yeah, I'd have to agree, especially the aspect of conventions starting to have those policies that they're posting more. If you've never been harassed or you've never had to report something, it's easy to take for granted that someone's gonna be there for you to do that. So it's nice going into it to know what the process is and who to go to and that the convention is actually going to stand behind you in investigating those reports. Suzanne Sheldon: 04:32 A hundred percent. Rebecca Strang: 04:33 And what are some things that you think we can work on as a community as far as making our tables and not even just our conventions, but even smaller spaces like game stores more welcoming? Suzanne Sheldon: 04:47 Well, you know, that's a great question and I think that the industry or the hobby, depending on how you want to frame it up, right? Everybody has a role in improving or making gaming more welcoming. And I think, I've written and I've spoken about this a lot before, so from a board game store or board game cafe location, have a clear policy posted, again, about being a safe and welcoming space. Make sure your store is clean and well lit and emanates a welcoming environment. Make sure that you are prepared to handle consumers that are both familiar with the hobby but also new to the hobby because being inclusive is also about recognizing that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there yet to discover the joy of board games and making their first, or introduction to board games. A positive experience can go miles. Now when I look at people like you and I, people who are creating board game content reviewers and pundents and video makers, this new wave of comedic board game content that's coming out that's delightful. I am really looking to us to set the wave. In many ways we are influencers and I know that a lot of people have a negative reaction to that word in general, but it is practical that you are out there, you're influencing the community and one ensuring that your content is representative and diverse, but also even if it can't be, you can't help who you are as a demographic if it's, you're just born the way you are. Even if you're say a cis straight white hetero, yeah, well that's duplicative, but if you're kind of a very stereotypical gamer, you can be part of inclusive gaming. You can show that even though you might be considered the status quo, you recognize that and that you are there to welcome marginalized and underrepresented people into the hobby as well. You recognize that there are challenges there and you are committing to being part of a solution to removing those barriers. Suzanne Sheldon: 06:54 I think from a publisher point of view that it is about recognizing that diversity of setting, of art, of designer, all of these elements that go into these wonderful board games. The diversity is a good thing, but doing it in a respectful way does also matter. So it's wonderful when we change up the settings. Every game doesn't need to be about trading in the Mediterranean or space battles. And even if it is, that's fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But what can we do to make these games more approachable for a broad swath of people and when we are choosing to do different settings or what have you, that we're being really cognizant and respectful. There's been a lot of games, traditionally games can be set in ancient Asia or in the Wild West of the United States or things like this and you will hit somewhat troublesome representations at times. Suzanne Sheldon: 07:52 And when you look at where these things are coming from, often based in stereotypes, often designed and art performed by and published by people who have no connection with those cultures or those histories. That's where you get problems. So it's a tough line, right? Because on one hand you want games to represent a more diverse plateau, but there are right ways and wrong ways to approach it. And we're just, I think board gaming is just beginning to understand that. So we're in a kind of tumultuous transition period where people aren't quite sure what to do and people have a lot of emotional reactions to it. People can get a little defensive, but it's completely surmountable. And that comes through if you're going to do a game about a culture or a setting that you have no basis in work with people who do. If you're setting a game in ancient China and you don't have any people on your team that are close to that, then look for artists from China, look for artists that have a knowledge of that historical period of time or hire a consultant to talk to you about what was practical and what was real in that time that can represent in your game and be genuine without just being reliant on Western promotion of stereotypes through media and pop culture over the years. Suzanne Sheldon: 09:16 And that's actually not that difficult to do. You just need to remember to do it. And I think that, in all things, all people kind of get into their habits and just kind of operate on autopilot and it's really just about moving that into manual. And asking yourself a few more questions in the process along the way. Rebecca Strang: 09:35 Yeah, and I love some of the conversations I've been seeing happen on Twitter and in some of our Facebook spaces where people are asking where they can find people with that knowledge. And I love that some of the lists that have been built on Twitter for designers or artists or even playtesters and rules, writers that are women or people of color or LGBTQ and it's great to have those resources and if you just ask, a lot of people are super willing to point you in the right direction or even offer you a little more help. Suzanne Sheldon: 10:13 A hundred percent. There are so many people out there eager to be part of this wonderful world of board games and contribute to it and it's exactly right Rebecca. Exactly. You just have to ask and it's going to be pretty rare that you hit a complete brick wall in progress on that front. Rebecca Strang: 10:32 Yeah. And I think if eventually you're wanting to put your game out there, you've gotta be willing to do the work to put yourself out there first and ask those, they can be heard questions maybe if you're not used to talking to people, but it's something you've got to do. Absolutely. So for another important question, if you were introducing a person to gaming, what is the best pie to serve them to show them that this is the place they want to be? Suzanne Sheldon: 10:59 Wow. This is some pretty hard hitting journalism right now. I wasn't expecting this. I wasn't expecting ambush journalism on this podcast Rebecca, I'm so disappointed in you. Let's see here. Well first of all, you have to clarify with the person, what kind of pies do they typically like and do they have any food allergies? Because I would hate to push a pecan pie on a person that has an allergy. Right? Rebecca Strang: 11:25 Exactly. Suzanne Sheldon: 11:28 And then really after you understand kind of the parameters that they're comfortable with. I would say my top favorites would be, well when you thinking about gaming, right? You don't want something too messy. So I would think a nice like pecan pie or a beautiful coconut cream pie that's really well made and isn't too gooey would be a delightful thing to have on the table. Because the thing with pie at the table too is ice cream on the side during board games is a little bit of a dicey propositions. So pie selection for game night is actually a pretty tough challenge. I'll have to mold that one over a little bit more. Rebecca Strang: 12:07 That's great. And I love how that actually parallels with exactly how you would introduce someone to gaming is asking what their preferences are and what their background is first. And then you can go into what some of your favorites are that align with that. Suzanne Sheldon: 12:19 Funny how that worked out. Amazing! Rebecca Strang: 12:23 All right, so if folks want to find you online to keep up with what you're doing and see what projects you've got coming up, where can they find you and connect with you? Suzanne Sheldon: 12:34 The easiest way to connect with me is, unfortunately, definitely Twitter. My account there is @425Suzanne. Uh, it's always a bit of a double edge sword there. I always remind people I tweet a lot and I know that can be overwhelming. I do also have an Instagram account @425Suzanne as well there where I'm a little slower to post, but there's lots of photos of games that I'm in progress on. And since you're listening to a podcast right now, as Rebecca mentioned earlier, I am one of the cohosts of the Dice Tower Podcast where we talk all about board games and card games every episode. And I'd love to have you join us there if you aren't listening already. Rebecca Strang: 13:15 Fantastic. And if our listeners have any questions or comments they'd like to share with us, you can email us at playabilitypod@gmail.com or find us on major social media platforms @playabilitypod. Thanks again for listening and I hope this episode helps you play with a new perspective.