Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. Monte Woodard 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode 140 of the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. My name is Monte Woodard, she/her pronouns and I'm a Modern Classrooms mentor, and I also help moderate the Facebook group. Today I am joined by a NYC public school educator Melissa Stagg. Welcome, Melissa. Melissa Stagg 0:47 Hi, Monte, thank you so much for having me. Monte Woodard 0:50 It's so exciting to be in this space with you. Thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. Before we get started, what is bringing you joy lately? Melissa Stagg 0:58 I would have to say the change in weather is really nice. So I'm in New York City, as you mentioned, and we're finally starting to get some, some sunny spring weather. And that's been just really nice to ditch the coat and travel lighter on my commute. Monte Woodard 1:21 What was your high 10? For today? Do you know? At three? Oh, very nice. Yes, the weather has been nice in DC lately, too. And I will say it has definitely helped the morale around the school, the kids are happier, the adults are happier. So I love that you brought up the weather because I'm ready for summer and just swimming and all of those things. Yes. So tell us a little bit about who you are and how you started your modern classroom journey. Melissa Stagg 1:46 Sure. So I use she/her pronouns. I'm a Bronx native. And when I decided to go into education 15 years ago, I decided for myself that it only made sense to teach, who I consider to be my people, right, the children of the Bronx. And so I've always and only taught in that borough, I'm wrapping up my 15th year of teaching. My family comes from Puerto Rico, and I'm about third generation on the mainland. So it's been a while since we've had any family members born on the island. I teach World Language, specifically Spanish. And a fun fact is that I learned my heritage language in college. I wasn't raised with it. And so by the time I got to college, I felt ready to take on the challenge of learning my heritage language. And now I teach it and so it's pretty exciting. Last year, through my Schools Network, I had heard about the modern classrooms project. And so I took the course in April of 2022. And I launched my first modern classrooms, this school year. Monte Woodard 3:05 Very cool in 15 years, Melissa, kudos to you because 15 years in education is like 50 years and like real link but real years. Time. Yeah, it is. And I think it's really amazing to that you've you know, been in the same borough of the Bronx, I think that's also really cool, because I've definitely done some school bouncing. And so I really admire people who have been in the same place for a long period of time. I know the community, the kids, like I bet that really means a lot to that area. So super cool. Melissa Stagg 3:35 Yeah. And I'll just say that I am someone you know, over the years, I've grown to understand that I am a person that likes to nurture a nest, if you will. It's an expression I heard from a colleague. And so I really do love being someone who holds on to an institution's history, and then shares that as new people come in and join the work that we're doing. Monte Woodard 4:00 I love that. So could you tell us a little bit about your school and the learners that you serve? Melissa Stagg 4:04 Absolutely. So I teach in a public school, which services grades six through 12. In my school, we use standards based grading as our you know, the the backbone of our grading policy. So, for listeners who may not be familiar with that approach, we do not use the traditional letter grades of A, A plus, A minus, B plus. And we also do not use, you know, numerical grades scoring and 85 or 65. You have 100% on a quiz. That doesn't really exist within the the grading community at the school. We're using standards based grading. So students are being given information about whether they are meeting standards exceeding them, almost meeting the standards or if they have next steps that they need to pursue to begin approaching Standard, it is an all female school. So we serve girls and gender expansive youth. We have populations of multi language learners, students that receive special education services. And I would say that our population is mostly black and brown children, mostly coming from different neighborhoods in the Bronx. But we do have students from other places throughout New York City. And our school is a part of the Student Leadership Network, which has other twills is our acronym. The full name is the Young Women's Leadership School. And we have schools in all the boroughs, including Staten Island can't forget Staten Island. And we also have schools throughout the country that are a part of the network. Monte Woodard 5:47 Wow, very cool. And how many students are at your school? Melissa Stagg 5:51 Sure. So we have about we're just under 600. So maybe about 575, hovering there abouts, with the middle school being a little bit larger than the high school students. So about 300 plus in the middle school and 200 plus in our high school. Monte Woodard 6:08 Wow, very cool. All female. I love that. Um, so we're gonna spend some time talking a little bit about, you know, neuro divergence. We've actually had a podcast episode before about neuro divergence, it was episode 125. We'll make sure that's linked in the show notes. But Melissa, would you tell me what's your definition of neurodivergence? Melissa Stagg 6:26 So I want to say that my definition comes from personal experience as someone who is neurodivergent, and as someone who's just worked in schools for a long time, and has family members that are neuro divergent and students that are neurodivergent or self identify. And so for me, neurodivergence is a recognition that not all brains process, learn, think and feel in the same ways, and that these variations are a natural part of the human genome, right? This is humanity. And so when you get into some of the more specifics around neurodivergence, it is referring to autistic folks, it is referring to folks with ADHD or who are ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and so the ways in which the brain will process information, and relay that message back can vary from what we would consider to be the typical population, or typical members of a culture or community. Monte Woodard 7:33 And why is it important for people to be aware of neurodivergent? Melissa Stagg 7:37 So for me, when I think about that question, what comes up for me is that all people have needs, and when those needs are not met, we will do almost whatever we feel we have to in those moments, to get our needs met. And so that can create a strain on the individual who now has to figure that out. And folks who are neuro divergent, have a different set of considerations that often aren't taken into account, when creating systems programs, opportunities for the general population or again for neurotypical folk. And so again, going back to this idea of when your needs are not met, then it becomes really hard to access your best present that to perform at your level of excellence, whatever that may be. And now there's a sort of think of it as a delay. Now, because your needs are not met, you have to shift gears and figure out how you're going to get those needs met. Versus thought has gone into preparing a place in space for everyone who could potentially be a part of that. And now you can enter in now you can give of yourself, now you can share your gifts. And so some times, and this is in my experience, when things that I need in order to perform optimally are not thought out. Well, now I have to do that thinking and planning and shifting. And so my energy is not available, always to then do the thing that I was originally trying to do. And I'm happy to provide a specific example. I think it also just to further answer the question. It's about equity in classrooms. And so if I'm only planning as an educator for the bell curve of students, the 80% that fall right in the middle if and only Planning for them, then I'm missing an opportunity to plan for the 20% on the other side of the bell curve, if you will. So that could be impacting access to learning. At worst, it could be causing harm. I have read articles that have come out. And I wish I had sources prepared for you. But there's talk about if schools are responsible for causing harm and PTSD symptoms in autistic learners, because the environments are not prepared equipped for those needs, and time isn't always being taken to think about what that might be. Monte Woodard 10:45 And yeah, speaking of the classroom, can you tell us some of the ways in which like a, you know, a neurodivergent, and a neurotypical student might experience the classroom environment differently? Melissa Stagg 10:57 Sure. And so, when I think about that question, what comes to mind for me, is very immediately, because they think of certain students, the amount of noise in a classroom, and sometimes when I say noise, I mean that the sounds of learning. I feel like today's generation definitely, at least in the population where I teach, right, we are, we are out of quarantined schools in New York City have been fully open for two years now. And students are excited to socialize. And there the work that they do at the school where I teach is mostly collaborative. So you could have anywhere from six to eight groups of four, reading an article out loud to each other, in addition to side conversations. And I have students who are really sensitive to the amount of learning noise, if you will, in the classroom, who will then ask to go and learn and read in a different space, or who will not be able in that class period to get the reading done, because it's too noisy. And so they will need maybe the reading recorded for them, so they can plug into headphones, or noise cancelling headphones, so that they can drown out some of that background noise. Often for me, what it what it seems to come down to is access for learning, whereas many neurotypical students, even if they're uncomfortable with the amount of noise, can access a capacity or a bandwidth to push through. And so while both students can experience discomfort, for some neurodivergent learners, that discomfort is so intense that it removes access to the learning activity, if it hasn't been differentiated, for the environment that can be created by the activity, and for the learners coming into that environment. Monte Woodard 13:14 I love everything that you said. And I think it's, it's an important distinction, because I mean, I typically do think about classroom noise levels, but not necessarily when we're all doing the learning. You know, as long as you know, in my mind, sometimes it's like, as long as it's not like we're not shouting and whatnot, I tend to be okay. But I think you bring up a very important point of like, even the sounds of learning, you know, all of the things that go into that, you know, contributes to the noise levels of the classroom and how that can really detract from a student that is neurodivergent being able to focus. And you know, so that's a very important thing to always remember. So I love that you brought that up the noise. So we've heard from Emily, who's the partnerships manager for Modern Classroom that you do a great job of utilizing the modern classroom model for learners who are neurodivergent. So how do you celebrate and center neurodivergence in your classroom? Melissa Stagg 14:09 Sure. And if I can backtrack just for a moment, what I'd also like to just share about neurotypical students and neurodivergent students, as I've experienced it as an educator in the classroom, is that I often find that my neurodivergent learners are managing almost more conscientiously, almost manually managing the stressors of the environment, changes and fluctuations to the physical learning environment. So something like you have new seats today surprise, can actually cause such a disruption to neurodivergent learners who predicate their success on routine. I know that I'm going to come into Mrs. stags classroom. I'm going to sit at this table, which is usually by this part of the room, maybe it's by the door where they feel safest, maybe it's by the window, so they can get fresh air or just give their eyes a visual break and stare out the window throughout the period. And now seats have been changed in a traditional classroom. And so I would say on days, when that happens, 80% 90% of students are unhappy, oh, man, why you change my see, oh, I don't like sitting here. And then 80 and 90%, go and sit there. Right. But for the student who didn't know that change was coming. They now manually have to manage the anxiety of new people, the anxiety that comes with socializing. And if part of their neuro type means that socialization is something that they have to rehearse beforehand, so that they can then feel more comfortable. Now that opportunity has been removed, because I don't know, I always felt like changing seats was something we all secretly thought we had to do as a surprise, or a punishment. Right? It was very punitive. I'm changing seats tomorrow, because I'm not getting the behavior I want. So anyway, in treating the typical population like this, and you know, most students would be like, well, she's changing our seats, because we're too chatty. But there's a group of students who were finding success in that routine. And if we haven't planned for supporting the change, I'm not saying we should never change seats, but what supports were put in place for the student whose whole ecosystem, right, was based on the routines of the classroom and knowing what was going to happen throughout each segment of learning, right, that's now been disrupted. Or just some of our practices in general, as educators can just be very ableist. Right? I need everybody to sit down and sit still. Well, not everybody can sit down and sit still. How are we planning for the student that needs to move that needs to fidget? And so I love where I teach, because I feel like we do that work. And we may be in different areas as educators that at twills, Bronx, with how we're managing that, but I do feel like I see that work happening. And so to go back to your question about how I'm celebrating and centering neuro divergence, I openly discuss it. My students know pretty much by the start of the school year, that I am neuro divergent, I don't necessarily make them uncomfortable with with that statement, I don't make them responsible for any needs that I may have because of that. But often, when asking for student feedback, I have gotten at this school that students want to know their teacher, students want to know, for example, if my baseline is a little bit under where I normally am, and give them that heads up, so that they can adjust for themselves and understand that maybe today's classroom environment might be a little bit different, because I might be off. And so in opening up my class at the beginning of the year, I identify openly as neurodivergent. So that conversations can happen for those who are curious. And what I've seen it do is help bring awareness to students who then say, Wait, Miss, I'm kinda like you. And the language becomes empowering for them. I also celebrate their needs. And so with the modern classroom model, there's flexible seating in the room, because, right, the idea is that you are moving to the people and pockets of learning, collaboration, and performance on mastery checks, as you need to know this was not a well orchestrated dance for me in this particular year. But that said, I saw students benefit from not necessarily having assigned seating. And as they went through the school year, they learned to be responsible, and to move through the room as their needs suited them. And sometimes those needs were social. And that was fine, right? Because the expectations for what work was available to do and what needed to be done. And what happened if we didn't finish? Were very clear. And so it was fine. If a student wanted to go and sit next to this person, because they had to catch up on whatever the young people are talking about these days, right? I'm not always entirely sure. So yeah, I could go on if that's helpful, because for me, there was a lot that I felt like I was able to celebrate and center with this model. Monte Woodard 20:34 Yeah, I, I love all of that, like you're saying so much that is really making me like, rethink so many of the things that I do, I definitely have changed seats when they show up. And you know, it's not something that I've ever even thought about. But now you're once again, making me kind of like, take a step back and reflect and be like, huh, am I doing more harm than good by changing the seat. So thank you, Melissa, I appreciate you for giving me some things to think about as I get ready to go into a former weeks of school. four more weeks, or four weeks. Melissa Stagg 21:08 I'd also add that as I got more comfortable with the model, students knowing ahead of time, what was coming throughout the unit really helped them to plan for those who knew how to plan. And for my students who didn't have that executive function, and needed to be taught how to plan, it freed me up to spend class time teaching them how to plan for their week, because they now could see the beginning to the end. And you know, that's a skill, whether you are becoming proficient in speaking language through the instruction I'm providing or not knowing how to make a plan, knowing how to start a task, knowing how to express what you need, right. And sometimes as a neurodivergent, it can be hard to express what you need, when your need when vocalized with mouth words, is not what anyone else in the room needs. And there can be judgment there and there can be shaming, because again, peers may not understand why someone in 11th grade would raise their hand and say, Miss, can you highlight for me what I should be doing right now. There could be a judgment there. But I have neurodivergent students that if I have created a document that's too busy, and has too many words on the page, their eyes and brain cannot process all of that it looks like alphabet soup to them. So I have to print either the task for today on a separate page, which I'm not always great about remembering to do that. Or the option is to highlight what has to happen today. And you can imagine in a class of 11th and 12th graders, you raising your hand and saying that out loud, some students may criticize that, you know, not intentionally trying to cause harm, but that could cause harm and shame. And so I sent her in my classroom asking for what you need as a practice. Monte Woodard 23:21 I love that. And I think the point that you bring up of you know, really communicating to students, you know, what's coming up is also super important. It's a, it's a practice that I found out very quickly. And a modern classroom is like super useful to be able to provide students with some sort of calendar or, you know, agenda that just has like, upcoming deadlines and due dates and assignments. Like I found that it actually made my class function way smoother. Even if we are at different paces. It was just super useful for students. So I agree, I think I think no one zone super important. Um, so you've been implementing for a little over a year now? Yes. under, under, okay, a little under a year. Okay. So what would you say? Your challenges have been, you know, in doing this this year? Melissa Stagg 24:13 Yeah. So, for me first, so I'm the kind of person and I do think it goes back to my neuro type where I am all or nothing Gray, some, that is very hard for me to camp out there and be comfortable. And so as I went through the course, and really became a believer in the model, I jumped in with both you know, as I said, What is it both feet head first, all of that, I'm gonna run modern classrooms and all my sections and we are starting this way. And it's very hard for me to to anticipate big picture obstacles, especially when I'm excited and hyper focused on wanting to do something new. And so I did not anticipate the amount of pre work that needed to go into launching the modern classroom. And what I mean by that is having all the must do videos recorded, having a spire TOS available for my students who are going to move through curriculum at a pace that would have them getting to the Aspire to dues, preparing all of the CF views and the mastery check so that students really could self paced, it really meant that the work that I do throughout the unit over the course of the six weeks, let's say, had to be done upfront. And that became an obstacle for me. Because I was not really ever able to say here is unit two's map with the links and your mastery checks can be found here. And your practice, you know, CF use your checks for understanding are here. And so by December, I think I finally landed on the format of the weekly, I can prepare a week in advance, I cannot prepare a whole unit in advance, time to record was really hard to find. And so I had to be at school, almost two hours before it started. Part of that is because I need to commute early in the morning to avoid crowded commutes. But also because I needed to get into the classroom and record before there was noise in the hallway. And, and we had Wi Fi issues for the first two months of school. And so that was hard right out of my control, but still made the launch of a modern classroom really difficult. And students believing in the process, I would say would be the another challenge. Why are we doing this? Can you just teach us? I'm teaching you and and some of their rationale myths, just go back to the regular way. Because we hear you explaining the same thing over and over and over again, to everyone who raises their hand and pauses a video, you should just teach us and then you would be able to answer that question once. And it was almost worded like we're trying to make things easy for you. And it's like, no, no, I don't need you to do that. I appreciate you. But I'm here as part of a team of caretakers for you. You don't have to care take me, I'm still going to explain it 10 times regardless of the model of teaching I use, and so it's okay. But I would say those, those would be the challenges that felt like building a car while driving it. And that's that's always, you know, going to have some frustration associated with it. Monte Woodard 28:15 Yeah, it is the pre work. I think, for me, it was also a struggle in the beginning and you know, not going to tell any lies is still sometimes it's a struggle, especially this year is the first year I've taught multiple preps and having to, you know, and it's new curriculum for, you know, both grades that I teach. And so there are times where I'm, I'm struggling, because I'm like, Man, how am I going to make this video for sixth grade and make this video for eighth grade and put all these resources together? You know? So I definitely get that. And it definitely is. It definitely can be a struggle. But there are some benefits to implementing the model. Like, I mean, I'm still doing it. I started this in 2019. And here I am, you know, years laters still continuing to do it. So what are the benefits? Like how is it beneficial to use this model, even with all of the challenges you might face? Melissa Stagg 29:04 I mean, honestly, there's so much the first thing I'll start out with is this notion of participation. And so again, teaching for 15 years, you have students who are quiet, as some students who are mute or select Mute. Families may describe their children as shy. And so this idea of having parent teacher conferences this past year, and parents saying, Does she participate and almost like hoping this is the magical year that I as a teacher will finally say yes, your child participates. And actually, I was able to say that to the families that came to me during parent teacher conference. Yes, they are participating and engaging in the community. And just the relief that that brought families you know, I don't really know what Parents tie this idea of participation to but it really felt like success, my child is going to be able to go out into the world and use their voice. And so in the modern classroom, I have the instructional nest, you are watching a video and you can get the splitter and watch the video together with someone that's participation in the modern classroom. Maybe you're at the Genius Bar, you're all doing the practice together, you're in a group of three or six, whatever it is, that's participation. I don't need the traditional teacher in front of the room student in the seat raising their hands, I call on them, they respond. Yes, that's one expression of participation. And I would open up class with moments like that, or close the class out with moments that were very traditional. But everything in between, whether again, it was a genius bar or small group hub with me, that's participation. And so I was able to give that to families this year. And I was able to, by offering that it seems to also free the student, like Oh, finally, I don't have to sit through a parent teacher conference where my guardian is now saying, Oh, you see, you got to participate, you know, you got to talk more. I had a student, I have a student who prefers to communicate through writing, that that's participation. We don't always have to use mouth words, we don't always have access to mouth words to express our learning or questions. And so the modern classroom really freed me up as as the teacher in the room, I would say one of the teachers I, especially being in the Bronx and teaching world language, you have multilingual lingual learners in the room who can take the role as teacher as well. But it freed me up to embrace the nuance of different learners in the room and their needs. Another thing that was super beneficial, is taking the class and making it feel like small pocket community, and a lot of students crave that attention from their teacher. And that was so much more readily available to them. And so one of my largest classes this year is my class of 3333 teenagers. In a classroom that I'm not sure it was built with 33 teenagers in mind. And in the small group pub, it feels like a class of five or 12, my small group of the biggest one I've had this year was 12, which I thought to myself, Okay, maybe this is not small group club, but because the other students knew what they had to do and had found systems of accessing their learning with the video with the help of each other. And so yeah, on that day, the classroom felt smaller for those 12. And they got direct feedback, and it felt like one on one with the teacher. And after a traditional mini lesson, which I can be very verbose, and per separate over the same idea and just express it in different ways over and over again. So some of my mini lessons would go on for 1520 25 minutes. Well, then at that point, there's 15 minutes left, there's no time to conference with you individually, I now need to spend the 15 minutes circling the room and making sure everyone's doing the worksheet, right, or whatever the assignment is now. And it was nice and challenging, nice that students could be working on a host of different things related to the unit in one class period. And it was nice, like, Okay, you're doing the project. So you just need me to leave you alone and stop talking. Wonderful. Okay, you're doing the practice. Let's sit down and work on a few together. Oh, you need your mastery, check. That's okay. You go get it from the folder, you see it right there. Go ahead and get, you know, a privacy board so that your peers know not to talk to you while you're doing your mastery check. And so that managing that was very difficult. And so rich for the young people in the room. Monte Woodard 34:44 I also hear that you have incredible data that highlights the successes of learners. So could you tell me a little bit more about how you collect data and what kind of data you have and how are you communicating this data with different stakeholders, so everyone is on the same page? Melissa Stagg 34:57 Sure. Thank you for the question. I love data. I absolutely love it. I just can't even I can't even tell you. And so the first thing I did this year, now I'll preface this by saying that the study that I did is not statistically significant for for, you know, listeners who who value that. So I did what's called a PDSA inquiry cycle, a plan, do Study, Act cycle. And the first one I did this year was around neurodivergent. Learners, and how they are experiencing learning specifically, what is draining your academic and social battery? How do you recharge that in the moment? Or can you? When do you recharge? And does that make you more readily available for learning? Does that increase your time and attention on task? Does that inspire you to take a risk and break away from your routine? Right, because some neurodivergent folk, the routine is what brings security, the security is what releases them to open up for the learning process. And so I did a this PDSA cycle, and I had six students. So the idea around this inquiry is to make small ripple changes that will then reverberate throughout the rest of the school year, if you find that you've happened upon a viable piece of data or a viable aha moment, if you will. And what I learned through this cycle, that shocked me shocked me just because I couldn't anticipate what I was going to learn. And so I was pleasantly surprised, I should say, my neurodivergent students loved the modern classroom format. And this cycle I did around the time when I was thinking about shutting down the modern classrooms. And I just thought, you know what, this, this is cool. And kudos to the folks who are doing this work. But I'm going to go back and stand in front of the classroom and start teaching. And when I checked in with these students, who were my student experts, and they loved it, they were sad to hear that I was considering going back to traditional teaching, because they loved moving at their own pace, they loved having the headphones on, they loved having control over the learning and how fast the videos moved. I have one student that I think of who loved that they could finish all their work by Wednesday, and then come to class and read because that's how they recharged while they're in school. They need breaks. And so that was my first set of data related to that. And then I guess what I'll also say about that, what I learned was that there was no one activity that charged, drained, or recharged anyone's learning battery or social battery. It was as diverse as the learners that were a part of this study. Some students really loved the collaborative work. Most loved the videos, but not everyone did. What helps them learn changed even from the beginning of the study to the end. And so what I learned from these young people was that I needed to have a diversity of learning activity activities, if not, every day, definitely within the week. And whenever I could provide free like a free sequencing, I'm sure there's a better way to say that, but whenever I could provide them with the option to do Friday's work today, and then go back and do Monday's work by Wednesday. That was also very helpful to some learners. And so I really pushed myself after that study to make sure that there was a speaking reading and listening activity across two days, so that my students who didn't have the social battery to do conversation in Spanish on that day could postpone that and work on something else. Whereas in a traditional classroom, we're all speaking in Spanish today. Today's a day we're doing conversation practice, and then what you know, then sometimes we resort to these manipulative and punishment tactics. If you don't speak today, you get a zero If you don't speak today, you get next steps. And because of the speaking, you can't revise it because tomorrow we're writing, right. But in the modern classroom, if you're not speaking today, but you're writing today, then you can speak tomorrow, you can speak Wednesday, you can speak within the week, but Friday might be the hard deadline. But that gives those students time to adjust, adapt. And, you know, sort of get brave. Okay, I know I have to speak in Spanish, I know I have to do it by Friday, and fine, you're waiting until Friday, the last five minutes of class, but you did it. You want to do it Monday, get it out of the way, because it's causing you stress, wonderful, the flexibility is there. I'll also just say that the data that I collected right before considering if I was going to shut down the modern classroom model and go back to traditional teaching, this was around December, and I pulled my pass rates, because I spoke to my director. And she said, What's your past rate looking like right now? Have you checked your data, and I just thought, Oh, my goodness was going on with me, I haven't checked my data, I always check my data. And so when I looked at my pass rates, I had more students passing my class by December than I ever had in a traditional classroom. And the students who weren't passing the course, it was more related to Oh, it's a first period class, they're, you know, having a hard time still get into school on time, that wasn't related to mastery, it was more related to that executive function of getting to school on time, or having a plan to make up the work when you miss the course. And so my pass rates were amazing. I had three students out of almost 130, not passing in December. I mean, for me, that was just unheard of, I always have about 2025. And so that data was, was really attention grabbing, because it's what helped me realize we're all uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable with the model. My students aren't comfortable for the most part with the model. But something is working, because we're all approaching meeting or exceeding standards right now in December. And so that was, that was probably some of them the more exciting data. Also, in addition to my, my study with my students, Monte Woodard 42:39 And how do you make sure that your data is, you know, equitable and unbiased? Melissa Stagg 42:44 Oh, I mean, that's tough, right? So when I think about data from the perspective of my grades, I will say that the standards based grading model that my school uses, really helps to eliminate punitive grading that can happen. And my school did some work around grading with equity, which was the title of a book we read one summer. And so how do I ensure that my my data with respect to students grades is equitable? Students aren't losing points when the work is late. For two reasons, there are no points because it's standards based grading. And late work can still be excellent on the rubric. It's late. lateness is an issue of professionalism, for lack of a better term. It's a skill. It's important and it matters. But standards are tracking academic performance. And so when you're using standards and rubrics that are addressing the skills, and the expression of student learning, there's really no room for your work was late. So even it could have been a meeting but now it's an approaching. But the students demonstrated meeting the standard there. Alright, and so standards based grading really does remove that capacity of the teacher to minus a few points. So that's one and I could talk at length about that, you know, we track those skills under a different category, but they hold no weight to the overall academic grade. Right. So you may struggle in ninth grade to turn in your work on time. And that's something that we as a community of educators and hopefully with home can come together and be your village To help you meet deadlines, but while you're meeting deadlines, and you're learning new information, if your learning is reflective of mastery, then your grades should be reflective of that. And the feedback on lateness or neatness, if that's still a thing for, for some of us as teachers is, is important but separate from me. Another piece for me is I don't grade at certain points of my day. And so I pay attention to how many, almost, right, so that's a part of our rubric. Right, that almost means you're approaching the standard. Once I've written down three or four those in a row, I stopped, and I flagged the work. And I come back to it because that for me, as a veteran educator has become a signal of, hmm, we might be hyper focusing, because we've just seen the same mistake four times. And we know we taught them how to conjugate that verb, right. And so now, it's emotional. And I'm very introspective. And I become aware of when my grading becomes emotional, and I stop. And so grading also doesn't come home with me. And that's something that I had to learn, was forced to learn that. And that's a story for another time. But it's also helped to keep my grading very honest. And the last piece for me is that I have students that I confer with, and I asked my students for feedback very consistently. And so feedback is whole class, for me, whether it's an anonymous survey, or I'll just take 20 minutes and let students give me feedback. And I'm just listening and writing it down. But I also have students who are sort of my close circle, that I will say, Is this fair? What are other teachers in the school doing when this is the situation, for example, today, I cancelled the mastery check, because the video only had two views on it. And it was a should do, right. So you're opting into whether you should do this video or not. And I have a pretty good idea who should have done the video. And I recognize that my students didn't realize that the should do was really a must do for them. And so instead of telling myself, you see, they're they're getting lazy, you see, the weather was nice. And now everyone wants to forget that school is still in session. Or sometimes we have these harsh judgments of for our children, right, we forget that they really just are children. And so no, I take that as a point of reflection for me, I'm not going to give you a mastery check where your performance is going to be the same as two weeks ago, when you haven't watched the video that is helping to improve your skills. So it's postponed if you don't know that you're the person who should do the should do today. Just make eyes with me. And I'll make eyes with you. And I'll let you know, if I've given you a packet that looks like this. That's for you. You need the video. And so they they love that, right? They love that there, there was no punishment. It's frustrating for me, don't get me wrong. But there's no there's no punishment. For I expected 40 of you to watch this video, and you didn't. So I guess your mastery check is going to come out, you know, below standards. And now you'll learn why why do we have to learn like that? It's just given us a chance life will run out of chances on its own. Right. So I don't have to help life do that. Right. Eventually we get older, and we encounter systems and organizations in places that will just have less chances for us to revise and to to keep trying right? And so I don't have to replicate those systems in the classroom. And so I would say those are just some of the things that I do. I guess I'll add one more thing. I norm my grading with the other members of my department. And we norm our grading across the rubric. So our rubrics are vertically aligned for Spanish in the middle school all the way to the last level of Spanish in the high school. And we will sit down on occasion throughout the year. and grade the same work. And when we realize we've graded it differently, discuss why. And so that work has been really important because we catch each other. Like, oh, I would have given this excellent, but you gave it an almost, that's to mastery levels apart, we got to talk about that, right, because at the end of the day, these grades on paper become the currency that our young people use to navigate their next steps. And so while grades are not the end all be all of you are well educated and smart. If you have high grades, that may or may not be true. But this is the currency for your college, it could be for your internship, it could be for jobs that are looking to hire right out of high school, but they want a transcript. And so we have to be doing the work. And in my school, I feel like we do this work. And with my, with my department, we certainly do catch each other when we're sort of grading, you know, harshly or, you know, too close to the letter of the rubric when there's room for, you know, grading with the spirit of the rubric, if you will. Monte Woodard 51:13 Yeah, I think great. Norming is super important. And I've like I was saying earlier, I've been at a variety of schools. And I personally always feel better about my grades when I've been in schools where we do do great norming versus schools where we don't do great norming because I find that when you do too great norming, you at least have, you know, your team or other people to backup how your grading is like, well, we all normed, it, you know, our grading is pretty much on par, you know, with the other seventh graders or whatever. And it's always been easier to have those conversations versus when, you know, I'm in a situation where we're not doing any sort of brainstorming, it feels more islands, like I'm on my own, when I'm having to, like, you know, tell a student or parent and explain a grade. It definitely always feels better when you are in a situation where it's like, well, if I have the backing of for other people, so great, you know, so I definitely think that that's a super important part of, you know, making helping to make things equitable. And I just wish that it was more of a practice that people did across the board. Because I've found, I've been in various states and things and it's just not super common everywhere. weird to me. Um, so what what do you hope to see in the future? So I know that's a broad question, but any hopes or dreams about education? Melissa Stagg 52:33 I do. You know, when I think about how I share data with my students, I often will spend time making the distinction around what data is reflective of their learning. Right. And so again, I teach oral language. So when is the data reflecting that you are learning and doing well, and you are able to go out into the world, and use this world language, for your own goals and dreams and purposes, and hopefully to help your community and then I share data that is reflective of their schooling, right, you are answering these questions correctly, you are on track to pass this exam, you are on track to pass a final you are on track to pass your regents exam, which is the name of the exams be given in New York state. And so both matter. For me, one is clearly more important than the other, which is learning. And young people have to navigate their learning and schooling simultaneously and my hope, and what has kept me in the classroom for so long, because I've had many reasons to walk away from it. But I've stayed because I, I want to be a part of the movement of educators that bring transformational learning to our young people. Learning is so transactional, I gave you a lesson you give me homework, I give you a grade, you feel whatever you feel about that grade, and we never seen your work product again. I pass it back to you. And you do whatever you do with your papers. Or my reality. I don't have the executive function to pass back work. And so it just stays in bins and students who want it go get it. And students who don't even remember it, don't write but I look forward to the day where schools are community hubs where we are activating and preserving joy in our young people's heart and where they are learning truly the things that will enrich them and and invite them to take up space in the world. and make it what they needed to be what it should have been. How previous generations have fought for equity, and unity, you know, I really want that. And so that's a, that's a dream I have. And so if I brought it down to bite size goals, I certainly look forward to modern classroom 2.0 next year. And I have other teachers and colleagues I should say, who are running modern classrooms are who will be starting next year. And so I look forward to being able to build a community of modern classroom practitioners at my local school. Monte Woodard 55:47 I love that. I know I keep saying that. But I, I love that. And you know, before we close out, Melissa, I just have one super, super important question for you. Sure, I hear that you. You're, you're an amazing Baker. So what's your favorite thing to bake? Melissa Stagg 56:03 Oh, you brought up my preferred hyperfocus passion. So I'll I'll keep it short. But I discovered the joy of molded cookies. And so what is a moated? Cookie? I know Don't Ask Don't ask me. Oh, sorry, for another hour. But the signature molded cookie that I make is called Spring or leaf or spring really is German and heritage and Swiss as well. And there are various cookie molds that you press into the dough. And the idea is that the mold is I'll probably mess this up a little bit. But the mold is a negative impression. So that when you press it into the dough, what you get is the positive impression, meaning the dough is now popping out like 3d image of that. And they're very intricate. Lots of science goes into making them because you have to know your humidity, because they're very sensitive to humidity. So you have to pay attention to the weather. Monte Woodard 57:24 They're so pretty. I looked up, it's they're so pretty. Melissa Stagg 57:27 You looked them up? Monte Woodard 57:28 Oh, and they're just they're beautiful cookies. Melissa Stagg 57:31 They are beautiful. And I probably have over 100 Molds now. And they they bring me great joy. I can hyperfocus when I bake them. And it's really a great way for me to recharge. Monte Woodard 57:50 How can our listeners connect with you, especially if they want to hear more about this mode cookie creation of yours? Melissa Stagg 57:58 Sure. So folks who are looking to connect with me, I will ask, you know, for your patience, I am navigating the world of social media. But I am on Twitter. And I'm also on Instagram and they can connect with me on my LinkedIn. Monte Woodard 58:20 And we'll make sure all of this stuff is linked in the show notes so that you are able to access Melissa's details if you want to hear more of the things that she has to say because I have personally learned so much listening to you talk and it's it's definitely you know, got me already thinking of like hmm, there are a couple of things that I could probably do a little differently. Thank you so much for your time and energy. Melissa, it's been amazing hearing from you and hearing your passion for you know neurodivergent learners. Listeners, remember, you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org/140. We'll have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there are check back in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you so much, Melissa. Melissa Stagg 59:21 Thank you, Monte. Zach Diamond 59:27 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's PR o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday. with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast.