Zach Diamond  0:03  
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello, and welcome to episode 152 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, she/they pronouns, the Community Engagement Manager here at MCP, and I am joined by our other co host, Zach Diamond. Hi, Zach.

Zach Diamond  0:40  
Hey, Toni Rose, it's so good to be back together on the podcast. It's been forever.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:45  
For ever. I feel like you and I were talking about this. And we were like, Wait, it's been a while. And I was like, oh, we need a guest. And we were like, No, we're just going to do this ourselves.

Zach Diamond  0:55  
Yeah, yeah, it's a great topic. I'm gonna have to go. But I'll link it in the show notes. Whatever the last episode that you and I did together, it might have been like, last year. It's been such a long time. I'm so excited to be back recording with you on the mic.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:08  
I think that's so wild. That's so wild to to even think about. And just the amount of work that we've done with the podcasts. And just like how we've just continued to elevate people or educator voices anyway. So yeah, again, like you said, I'm so excited to be in this space with you. And it's been forever. And here we are back at it again. So before we get started, what's currently bringing you joy?

Zach Diamond  1:29  
Oh, I feel so much joy right now. I mean, we my family just had this big trip to the West Coast, we live in the DC area. And we had this big trip where we flew to Seattle and drove all the way down to LA. Over two weeks, it was an amazing trip. But what's bringing me joy is that I have a week before school starts to be at home. And honestly, I'm relaxing. I'm playing video games with my kids, I'm going for runs every day. It's just very nice to have this week to sort of decompress after that, which was a really fun vacation, but not a relaxing vacation at all. It was a big, big to do. So I'm deriving great joy from just sort of decompressing this week and getting ready to go back for a PD next week.

Toni Rose Deanon  2:09  
And you know, the saying like, you need a vacation from your vacation from your vacation. Exactly. I mean, it's, you know, I just came back from the Philippines for you know, being there for three months, and I'm still adjusting to just the culture and the time and all that good stuff. So I feel like also I've just been kind of resting and, and listening to my body this week. So that's currently bringing me joy. And you know, just speaking to educators once again and connecting with them and understanding and realizing that like Who here here all of our emotions coming because this school year is here. Gosh, can you believe it? Season Four already? Zach,

Zach Diamond  2:51  
no, I don't know how that happened. Like I I feel like we just started doing seasons. Right? Yeah, you know, and it's like, wow, season four. Well, here we are.

Toni Rose Deanon  3:01  
Here we are. And you definitely had a great recording from from last week with Paul France talking about humanizing, teaching practices, teaching and learning practices, right, kind of making it more sustainable and enjoyable. And just bring out our humaneness. I really enjoyed that episode. So shout out to Paul France for that. And I know that we'll probably link that in the show notes as well to just kind of continue with our, with our theme for this month. And so this month, we're really focusing on embracing resistance. And so again, like last week, we talked about humanizing our teaching and learning practices. And so this week, we're going to talk about what this means exactly what does embracing resistance mean. So what does that mean to you, Zach?

Zach Diamond  3:41  
Well, it's interesting, because we talked about this, you and I, okay, I said, we haven't spoken on the podcast for months, right? But actually, we meet frequently and talk about this stuff. So we were talking about the schedule. And interestingly, my interpretation of the word resistance, as we were talking about it is, I think, different from how you were interpreting it, because I'm reading through your questions now. And I was imagining the resistance from the perspective of like, we are resisting an oppressive system, we are acting as resistors, like a resistance, but what you're getting at is a more like emotional sense of, of resistance, and that I shouldn't be doing this. Am I Am I interpreting your questions? Right? Like, the resistance is like, Oh, this is this isn't how teachers teach. This isn't the right way to do this. Is Am I interpreting your questions correctly? When I think about it that way?

Toni Rose Deanon  4:30  
Yes, most definitely. Because I know that that's a really interesting definition for you. And I think that this is such an important conversation right to just kind of norm on what we think the word means. Right? The definition because again, like a lot of people have a lot of different definitions for certain words. And so when you bring up resistance, like I love that, that whole concept of like resisting an oppressive system, because a lot of our systems here are very much based off of oppression, right. And so when I was thinking about this thinking About like when I was back in the classroom and the beginning of the school year, and I am implementing this blended, self paced, mastery based instructional model, right. And so there's a lot of questions about it. And we're still getting a lot of questions from our community as well of like, how do you manage or navigate conversations that basically are with folks who are resistant to this kind of transformational change, right, like this kind of instructional model? Like, there's just a lot of like, no, that's not going to work. Or I think you should go back to what you were doing before, or that's not how we do things. So that's kind of how I came up with this wording and how I was like, Zach, we kind of have to have this conversation, because it's a thing.

Zach Diamond  5:41  
Yeah, and there's definitely parallels. I mean, I see parallels, they're kind of corollaries to one another, right? Like, takes this assumption that like, there is a right way to teach capital R, and I'm putting finger quotes, right, or right way to teach. And we are not teaching that way. And so in one sense, we are resisting that assumption, which I think is wrong, and we should be resisting it, and we're pushing against it. But on the other hand, there is resistance, we feel resistance to doing that, because it feels wrong, because we've sort of internalized this sort of ingrained, right way to teach and so it feels wrong to do it any other way. You know, and so there, there's like, the, on the one hand, there's the act of acting against this sort of model that we're so used to, and also the emotion that comes with doing it, and maybe fear that we're doing it wrong. Your your next question in the, in the document here, it gets into the sort of emotions of this. And I don't mean to start getting ahead of ourselves here. But like the, the thing that came to mind for me, and I'm not exactly sure this is an emotion, but it's impostor syndrome. It's like, okay, I'm in the classroom. I teachers do this thing, right? Teachers teach. I know what teachers do. But I'm not doing that my students seem to like it. I'm a lot happier. They seem to be learning, but I'm not doing it the way I'm supposed to. And it's impostor syndrome, the emotion that came to mind for me, because it's like, I like unpacking this. But anyway, yeah. So I'm seeing sort of a connection between the two interpretations. And that's, I don't know, that's interesting to me.

Toni Rose Deanon  7:11  
Yeah. And I mean, it gave me a lot to think about as well, right? Especially when it comes to resisting. And when we think about, like, there's a right way to teach something, right? We're thinking about the right and then the wrong when sometimes, you know, things aren't necessarily that clear, if that makes sense. And so but we know like, we you and I are doing this work with modern classroom, because we know that the traditional way of teaching has not been working for a lot of our kids. And it also has not been working for us. And it has not been working for our families and all the other stakeholders involved in this learning of a student. Right. And so, you know, you're talking about the second question, I'm currently reading The PD book. It's literally titled The PD book by Elena Aguilar and Lori Cohen. Because I just want to be more intentional with the webinars and the workshops that I offered to our our MCP community. And so in the book, one of the things that stuck out to me is that it says resistance is all about emotions. And understanding emotions can help you prevent resistance, as well as develop a range of strategies to respond to it. So let's talk about emotions and how that shows up in the learning environment, especially when we're trying to disrupt the traditional way of teaching. So what are your thoughts on this?

Zach Diamond  8:24  
Yeah, I think this is the question that made me reinterpret the word resistance as sort of like, the resistance within me to try something new. Right. And I think that what it is than is, I guess, the emotion, it would be fear, right? Fear that I'm not teaching the right way. Or that I'm not a good teacher, or that there are teachers who weren't who are better than me at managing classrooms. And so that's the emotion that came to mind. And that's also where this idea of impostor syndrome came from, for me, because it's like, you know, that my, in my mind, I, even though I'm working so hard to implement this model and to, you know, share this model, obviously, here on the podcast. And as a mentor, we do this work because we think the model is right. And I do truly believe that, but I still have to sort of fight against this inner voice that says, You're not lecturing to them. They're not compliant. They're not sitting quietly, too many kids are talking, I hear this in my head. And so you know, obviously, understanding that is definitely a first step for me towards being okay with the fact that another way can be right like you said, there's not one right way it's never that cut and dry. And so, I guess the the emotion that that comes to mind, for me is fear. And it can be scary, right? To try out something new, and try out something that is different from what we know. I'm quoting again with my fingers, what we know works, which we actually know kind of doesn't work. But you know, it's it's fear for me. It can be scary to try out this this new model, when we're so used to A system that we have been accustomed to for, I guess, centuries.

Toni Rose Deanon  10:05  
Yeah. And I, again, I really appreciate you just naming that fear aspect, right? And even just naming the fact that there is this imposter syndrome. And I think as a society, we've just normalized to what is expected of teachers, right? Like, we get so many opinions about what teachers should be doing, from folks who are not teachers. And so we see that all the time, especially with the pandemic that happened, right, like, what were the expectations that people had of teachers during that time? And it's like one of those things where it's like, it's actually not realistic, y'all. How about y'all do this? Like, you know, and it's kind of like one of those things where you know, that people have eyes on you that cut, that's either your students are watching you, your families are watching your school leaders are watching you. And there's this unspoken expectation that you just follow the norm. Yes, right. And that you don't really want to, like, rock the boat too much. Which is wild, especially thinking about all the laws that are being passed down, right, like we're, our teachers are being censored about what they can and cannot say, and what they can and cannot teach in the classroom because of how it could be perceived. And so of course, there's a lot of fear behind it, right. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of uncertainty behind it. And when when we're uncertain about something when we don't know about something, I feel like it's human nature to face it and react with fear. And, and that's something that I've just always told, educators that I've worked with is like, when you have someone resisting, right, that means that they're paying attention, and let's embrace the fact that they're paying attention. And, and sometimes I know, when we get resistance, again, our human nature response is to be defensive, right, and to create this wall of protection, and then just start putting blame on everyone else. Because that's the easiest, that's the easiest thing to do. Right? And what's harder, is taking a step back and catching those thoughts, right? And like, self reflecting on like, Okay, what, you know, just kind of like approaching with empathy is what I'm saying to is like, why are people resisting? And I think when we think about emotions, too, and how that shows up in the learning environment, like, you and I have been in the in the classroom for many years, and you and I know that like, in the beginning of the school year, there's a lot of emotions, especially for educators, right? Like, Hey, am I gonna do well, am I excited, I am excited. But I'm also nervous, I'm also anxious, I'm also tired, I'm also restless, I'm also frustrated. And all of these emotions are valid and can show up. So I think like thinking about, like, how all of these emotions show up, and they're okay, right? Like, you can be happy and you can be frustrated, you can be excited, and you can be nervous, and, and all of that is okay. And so when we think about our educators, because I know sometimes we like, are so focused on on our learners and our school leaders that we sometimes forget about, like how educators are feeling as well. And so just naming the fact that, like, all of those emotions are okay. And I know that in the spaces that I am in, I try to create safe ish spaces for people to just show up as authentically as themselves. Because, again, you Zach have talked about this as far as like social emotional learning, right? Like, when we don't give time for our students to feel those emotions. Learning is not going to happen. 

Zach Diamond  13:43  
100% Exactly right.

Toni Rose Deanon  13:46  
And so like, we want to provide the spaces for ourselves as educators and for our learners as well to, to, to get in tune with their emotions, like you're coming in here, hot and heavy. And so that's going to affect how you interact with people. And so then how are you going to navigate those emotions so that you can still have a productive conversation or productive time within this space? And so when we think about adult learning to write, because, like thinking about I've spoken to a couple of mentors, and, and, you know, we get to work with educators all over the world, which is really, really exciting. And so when we think about this, Zach, like, share a celebratory story where a mentee was resistant at first and you were able to break down barriers and understand why your mentee was feeling the way that they were.

Zach Diamond  14:35  
Yeah, yeah. I had a mentee. I think it was the first summer institute. So was that 2021 Two years three, well, three summer Institute's ago now. He was a ceramics teacher. And at the outset, he was basically like, this is not going to work. My students are working with their hands they have clay on the wheel like they're doing this very hands on thing and I can't have them watching videos and I'm By the end, we worked a lot, obviously on this. And I really try and accommodate my, my mentees as as much as possible because I do trust teachers with their content. I know nothing about teaching ceramics. So I was gonna take him at his word, but I also want it to be like, you know, the fact of the matter is your students are going to need different amounts of time to master this content. And so by the end, he actually really was into it. He's sort of like the poster child answer to this question where he, he still had his students working on the wheels, obviously, they were doing their, their stuff that whatever they do, I don't remember. And he did a really good job of sort of separating out, this is direct instruction, versus this is practice. And this is what a mastery check is going to look like. So that students were never mixing those different things together when they had like, you know, clay on their hands and couldn't be using a computer, versus when they could be watching the video and taking notes. And I guess, for that, it wasn't exactly this sort of fear in terms of resistance, to disrupting a traditional way of teaching, but it was more of a content specific thing. But he definitely learned like, oh, this model is more flexible, and there are ways to incorporate this self paced, mastery based system that, you know, first of all are a little bit different from what's taught in the actual mentorship training program. But, but also like, we can break away from the norms that we're used to, in service of, you know, self pacing and mastery, giving the students the time they need to actually learn this stuff, making the learning authentic to them, allowing them to, you know, do projects that they think are relevant, and all this all this sort of, you know, stuff that we want, right? To make it more student centered. And he really came around on that. And I was very happy that I was able to help him see that. But I think that just in terms of its relevance to this podcast episode, right, it's like coming to understand that I can break away from the norm, I can disrupt I can, and this was my interpretation, but I can resist that norm, I can do something different. And it's still okay, I can I can change how this is working, change can be hard. And change can be scary. But change can also be very, very good if it's in service of this learning, you know. And I think that that's why I immediately thought of this guy. He was a very, he was a tough mentee at first. And he came around, and so he was the one who I thought of,

Toni Rose Deanon  17:34  
yeah, and, and that's such an interesting story, too. Thank you so much for sharing and shout out to the ceramics teacher who's just like crushing it, I'm sure out there. And so, you know, when I was working with educators, a lot of the times the resistance is coming from frustration, you know, comments like, my, my kids can't do the can't do this. There's no way my kids can do this. And so when I have conversations with those educators who have this, like, you know, the the deficit mindset, right, of like, kids not being able to do the things that are that this model is asking for them to do? It's actually not. It's not that they're thinking badly of their students, right? Not at all. It's the frustration that they don't have enough time. And so a lot of the times when I have conversations that educators who are resistant to this model, it's because they don't have time. And they think that like, this is another way. For me, this is another thing for me to do another thing on my plate. And so the resistance comes from that right frustration of not having enough time frustration, of not getting the guidance and the support that they need. And so just like kind of having conversations with educators to understand, like, where is this resistance coming from? Let's talk about it. And then let's move forward to something that is sustainable, and, quote unquote, easy for you. Right? And because, you know, I always whenever I, whenever I did my introductory my introductory calls with my mentees, I always told them like, this is something that we hope would enhance what you're already doing, this is not something that you're gonna have to do more work with, or like, overwhelm you or stress you out or anything, this is really a way for you to enhance what you're already doing. Because again, like you said, right, our mentees are the experts, like they already know their communities, they know their content. And so we just kind of have to lean in on that. And then just really understanding that like when we have folks who resist change, we really want to approach this situation with curiosity and empathy. And this is something we've talked about in the in the podcast before too of just asking more questions, and just really getting down to the real reasoning as to why resistance is showing up. I know when families have resisted before it's because they're there. Again, like you said Fear, right? They're afraid that they may not be able to support their child the way that they are being asked right and so or that they don't have have time to do whatever it is. And I think with this model, it actually creates a bridge with that, right? Because they can watch those lessons together and learn together. And so that way that there's more conversation that's starting at home as well, if they wanted to watch those videos, and there's a lot more transparency of what the educators are teaching in the classroom. And so who I could talk about emotions all day long, I can talk about resistance all day long. And there's just been a lot of just a lot of stories, right of just working with mentees who are resistant, because again, like fear, frustrations, anxieties, like all that takes place, and that's okay. And so thank you for sharing that celebratory story. I know that for me, I celebrate just pebbles being moved. And so if my educator can just or my mentee can just tell me like, okay, where this is coming from, then it that, to me is a celebration, right? That that's self awareness, that's something that we can move forward with with that information. And so like, like you said, you know, multiple times in the podcast, that is that you really love being able to connect with your students, right. And so when I shifted from middle school students to adult learners, I am really focused on establishing those deeper relationships with adult learners just to kind of have a better understanding of why they're showing up the way that they're showing up and also understanding that like, yeah, a lot of these things suck. And that's okay. So there's another thing that stuck out to me, as I read as as I read this book, right, the PD book, Elena's coach actually told her no one can learn from you if you think that they suck. This goes in every aspect of our lives, actually, is the relationship between school leaders and educators, educators and learners and just folks that we choose to be around with. And so I've been sitting with this for a while now, I think I've come across this phrase, maybe in 2020. Yeah, 2020 During the COVID year, and so I've just been like ruminating on this and making sure that whenever again, I show up in a space that I don't automatically think people suck or like because of what was said or what was done, that I don't automatically think someone sucks, right? And so how do you think we can we as individuals, right, can manage your own emotions when we face stakeholders who are resistant to this model of blended self paced mastery based learning?

Zach Diamond  22:32  
Yeah, I mean, I think you were making great points before about what you were saying about working with adult learners is trying to understand why people are showing up the way that they are, what frustrations that they have, it's, it's hard to, I don't know, I, I don't necessarily feel like I'm always operating from the opinion that someone else sucks, right? Like, I'm always trying to, to understand where they're coming from. And especially with my mentees, because I know like, I remember, I personally am pretty, okay with doing weird stuff in my classroom. But even I remember being a little scared, right? Like, I'm just gonna let these kids go. And obviously, there's more structure than that, but like, I'm gonna give up that much control. And so I understand that fear. And I try and sort of not projected onto my mentees, but like, imagine that they may be going through something similar, you know, especially this one, this one is trickier for me, when I think about like parents who are resistant to the model parents and guardians, that one is harder for me. Sometimes, it's not so much that I don't agree with them or think that they suck. It's like, I hear their concerns and their concerns almost convinced me right, they're valid concerns, like a student who is a student who is normally a very high performing student who gets high good grades, right? All of a sudden struggling with self pacing, and their grades come down a little bit. Well, what's within my locus of control is the monitor classrooms model that I'm implementing, right. But like, beyond my locus of control, there's a whole world that's going to look at their grades, when they get out of school, you know, maybe not so much in middle school music, but like, parents tend to be concerned about their students grades, not because of me, right, but because of the sort of world of grades that has built built itself up around schools and education for so long. And so it's like, I look for what the frustration is, you know, and I try and think about like, what, what can we do? Like, I'm not going to change the model, the model is happening in my classroom, that is within my locus of control. And I can tell you, my class is a modern classrooms class through and through. But can we address the frustration? Is there something the student can do to bring their grades up within the model that I'm more or less imposing on them from the parents perspective? It's it's a really interesting question, you know, because I feel like in a lot of ways we serve our learners, it's our job to teach them. But we also have a lot of control. Right? And we impose a lot of things on our learners. And so it's you said, you've been sitting with it, it's, it's making me think a lot. And I feel like I don't have a particularly coherent answer to the question. But it's, it's a really interesting thing to think about, like, external resistance being imposed on us, and how we react to that resistance that isn't coming from within, but coming from without, right. I'm gonna have to spend more time thinking about this. And I'm actually really curious to hear what you have to say, too, because this is a big question. And it's, it's making me think a lot.

Toni Rose Deanon  25:41  
Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna be honest, right? Like, there's been a lot of folks that I've worked with that I'm like, Wow, you really do suck. And, and I just really had to take a step back and just be like, Okay, but why am I thinking that way? Right? What are my triggers, that I'm automatically thinking that this person sucks because of what they said, and because of what they've done. And so I've had it in my head, where it's like, oh, now I have to fix this person. Right? And, and the thing is, like, people aren't meant to be fixed, like, we cannot fix people, right? And so, for me, this is just kind of like a self reflection tool of like, wow, like, I'm approaching this and really harmful ways. And so I need to take a step back so that I can just like reevaluate what I'm doing. Because like, people don't need to be fixed, first of all, and then also, like, people don't suck, like, yes, their thoughts and beliefs and actions that suck. But ultimately, like, if I'm trying to create a learning experience for folks, I cannot think that they suck. Does that make sense?

Zach Diamond  26:48  
Yes, yeah, it definitely does. There's a James Baldwin, quote that I was thinking of it says, a child cannot be taught by anyone who despises him. And that was in a co worker of ours email signature for a long time. And I remember reading it and thinking, wow, that's, that's amazing, right? Because, and I know that we've been talking about working with Mentees to obviously not children. But definitely I hear in the rhetoric, right. Oh, that's such a difficult student, right. Like, we have a really challenging students challenging group. And, and I guess I've had similar experiences, where it's like, I'm working with, with someone a mentee, you know, who can't figure out how to use the platform. And it's frustrating for me, I really want to try and help I, you know, I don't know, the language on this one is kind of intense. And so I feel like, I don't know if I've ever felt that extreme way about someone but like, you know, it's your, it's just a matter of trying to help the right to listen to. And to find that frustration. This is what you were saying before.

Toni Rose Deanon  27:52  
Yeah, I mean, if you me, honestly, right, like we've heard time and time again, like relationships are important. If they know that they don't like you, if your students know that you don't like them, there's no learning, that's going to happen, right? And so, or at least there's going to be, it's going to be really hard to get students to learn. And so I think just keeping this, like in mind with any type, or any age of learners, right, like, could be adults, it could be kids. It could even be just like our friends when we're learning from each other, or just strangers, right? Like, I can't automatically just say, like, oh, you said this one thing. So you suck. And then that kind of limits the conversation. There's no conversation anymore happening, right? And so, I, yeah, this is just something that I've just been like, Hmm, I came across this in 2021. And then now again, in this in this moment, and 2023 of just like, Okay, this is really interesting. And so I need to just kind of, again, be more self aware, be more self reflective of how I approach different individuals in my life.

Zach Diamond  28:50  
Yeah, I'm gonna need to read this book. It's so

Toni Rose Deanon  28:53  
good, Zach. It's like really rocking my world right now. Okay, so listeners, we're going to take a quick break for an announcement and we come back we'll talk a little bit more about embracing resistance. 

Hey, MCP community. We have some exciting learning opportunities next week for you. We have our webinar with talking points on Tuesday, August 15, at 6pm. Eastern Time, join us to learn more about how you can enhance your family engagement using talking points in your classroom. If you want to know more about our virtual mentorship program, join us at our info session on Wednesday, August 16, at 4pm. Eastern Time to learn more on how you can get a mentor as you implement a blended self paced, mastery based learning environment. Third of all, we have our Back to School Bash happening on Wednesday, August 16, at 6pm Eastern Time, where we'll celebrate you and go over our Back to School toolkit. Last but not least, we have an EdWeb webinar on the student centered classroom early elementary edition on Thursday, August 17 at 5pm Eastern Time, all links can be found on the show notes. Make sure you register to get the recording if you can't make it and Hopefully we'll see you there. 

All right, and now we're back with Zach. Yay. You know this, this school year is upon us. Dun dun dun. sS wild,

Zach Diamond  30:18  
just kidding, I'm excited.

Toni Rose Deanon  30:19  
I know, right? I just I got a Facebook memory actually, that says I had my first year of teaching or my first day of my first year of teaching 13 years ago. It's bonkers. Time goes by so fast. So why is it important to make space for emotions that show up in the beginning of the school year for educators? For learners for parents, families? How can we? How like, how can we be prepared for emotions? Or can we really be prepared for the emotions that show up because I know sometimes it's edge it for educators, we lose sleep, there are some educators out there that lose sleep, like the week before school, right? And there's even if you get on social media now that like, you know, in July, when target started putting school supplies out, and all the teachers were like, wait, no, stop it.

Zach Diamond  31:09  
I hate that. Why?.

Toni Rose Deanon  31:12  
It really is like, the most hilarious thing, but also the most frustrating thing of like, why is this happening? Like, why are you reminding us? But yeah, how do you how do you anticipate providing space for emotions to show up in, in, in your learners and yourself and parents and families and caregivers and school leaders?

Zach Diamond  31:35  
Oh, yeah, this is such a hard question. I mean, it's not a hard question. It's just hard. It's a hard thing to do. That's my answer. It's hard. Yeah, be prepared for it. You know, I feel like, every year I just kind of tumble right into the classroom. And off we go, you know, I work really hard on setting up my classroom, like, physically, I hang up a lot of records. I do all this stuff that is sort of my, you know, my beginning of the year routine. And once the classroom is done, I feel like I'm back. I'm back in my room, just as if we hadn't had the summer break. But I have to say, I obviously acknowledge that having a basically a two month break is a major privilege of this career. It's something that I love. I really, really like having these breaks. But man coming back from a break is tough. It's It's so tough. The week leading up to the end of the break, it's just like, Ah, I want more weeks, I want more break. I like being home, I like going on trips, I like you know, biking, I like running, I like hanging out with my kids. Those emotions are definitely realized. I can't imagine that most teachers don't go through this too. You know, I feel like it's, that's why that whole July thing with the with the school supplies at Target. It's like, no, come on. Come on. I mean, it's,

Toni Rose Deanon  32:58  
it's really like, it's that dread. Right? Like, you're excited. But then it's still that dread. That's like, oh, here we go. Here we go.

Zach Diamond  33:08  
Yeah. And it's, it's interesting, because like, going back to what we were talking about before, it's almost like I, you know, I stopped to think about what am I actually dreading? Like, what's, what's going to happen that I'm going to be so upset about, right. And I think that like, I'm not gonna be that upset. I'm actually at this point I've been teaching long enough to, and also 13 years. Well, you know, for some reason, I thought it was 10 years that you've been teaching, but I realized that that was when we started this podcast together, like when, at the beginning of the pandemic, and the pandemic just kind of paused my perception of time. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, it's about that for me to 13 or 14 years, right. And so I've been teaching long enough that, you know, I know it's gonna be fine. Like, logically, rationally in my in my brain, I know, it's gonna be fine. But I also know that there's a lot riding on the beginning of the year, you know, the relationships, you can, I guess you could look at it in a sort of negative way, you could ruin those relationships right off the bat, and then they're very hard to recover. And that hasn't really happened to me for the past couple years that I've been doing modern classrooms, because my students know that I'll, you know, I'm, I'm there for them. Like, I'll listen to them. I'll teach them. I have high expectations for them. And I also will listen, I'll give them a break. If they need a break. I make the first couple of days pretty fun. And in a very student centered way I left I let them bring their own music into my music classroom, which I mentioned this on the previous podcast with Paul and I. I don't mean to throw shade towards other music teachers who teach in different ways, but like, I need to have my students listening to their own music and making their own music. Just because I remember feeling like music class was very much imposed on me at a time in my life when I very much loved my own music and it felt like two contrary forces, like opposing one another. And I don't want that for my students, right? So I let them listen to music in the classroom. We play games with their music in the car. Bathroom. But still, I still feel that I guess it is dread. You know, it's just like, oh, I have to go back and do this. And I could screw it up. And I don't want to. And so, yeah, you know, it's a very charged emotional time for teachers. I hope that any teacher listening to this feels validated and what I'm saying because, like, I don't know, it's not like we don't talk about it. I think that this is a pretty common feeling for for teachers, right? Coming back, even from a one week break. But after especially after summer break, it's like, okay, we're doing this again, you know,

Toni Rose Deanon  35:34  
I mean, yeah, like, like, there's an excitement because you get to start all over. And I think that's why a lot of our educators continue teaching is because it's like a brand new slate, you get just a brand new school year to start off whatever it is that you want to start off with. And I think like, you were talking about this, too, with modern classrooms, we have a unit zero, right, so our unit zero is actually a way for us to make and create those relationships with our students in the beginning of the school year. And we all know that there's a lot of interruptions in the beginning of the school year as well. So we might as well just do the low stakes, assignments and the tasks just to kind of see where our students cognitive skills are, where our students executive functioning skills are. And then really also understanding who our students are outside of being students, so really humanizing them as learners. And so when we think about emotions coming up, right, a couple of things that I have learned kind of, like coping mechanisms is that like, if I'm feeling a big emotion, I either put, like, I put a timer on my phone, right? I'm like, Okay, I have five minutes to feel this, or three minutes to feel this, and then I have to release it, right? Because in the beginning of the school, you're gonna get a lot of questions, you're gonna probably get a lot of pushback as well, if you're just if you're implementing this at a brand new school, or if you're just implementing it this year, you may get a lot of pushback, and that's okay. Right? I know, like thinking about like things. What's the phrase? It's like, No, it's not personal, right. But we tend to think it is. And so I think like giving that time and space for our emotions to just be and not like overthink, or analyze why we're feeling the way that we're feeling. And so like, I really love this, this usage of a timer for me, just so that I know that I'm, I'm, you know what, here's a feeling. And so I did that with my students as well, especially with my students with large emotions coming in. So I'm like, Hey, you have three minutes, like, go do what you got to do, right to like, regulate yourself, because all of what you're feeling is valid. And I'm going to give you the time and space to do it, as well. And so, especially with the beginning of the school year, like students are also re trying to adjust to going back to school as well. And then having to learn your ways of how you teach and what rules and expectations you have in the class. And then also thinking about, like, some of our students have seven to eight classes that they have to adjust to. And so again, like just keeping it, were keeping it light, keeping it fun in the beginning of the school year, and then also just realize that there's gonna be a lot of emotions that show up. And just giving that time and space for those emotions to show up, we're never going to be really prepared for how everyone shows up in the space that we create. But I think that when we're open and receptive to providing that space for them to feel that emotion, I think that that's also going to make a difference in the beginning of the school year.

Zach Diamond  38:23  
Yeah, and I think something to add here that I think is important, since our topic is resistance. I think that it's we have to be realistic and understand that our students are going to be resistant to coming back to school, whether, you know, separate and apart from modern classrooms. There's just resistance to ending the summer for them. Right. And so, that also is a genuine emotion, they're feeling that and I don't think that we as their teachers can, can we, in a self respecting way, we can't stand up and tell them don't feel that you're back at school now, you know, toughen up. This is also something that came up on the on the previous podcast with Paul and humanizing teaching. Like, that's not, that's not going to happen. You know, sometimes adults are right, and sometimes adults say silly things like that. Which, you know, don't say that, first of all, the students are going to show up, you know, and they're going to wish that summer had gone on longer. And so

Toni Rose Deanon  39:22  
yeah, kids, We are feeling the same way as adults 

Zach Diamond  39:24  
exactly, we can't expect them to not do not feel that way.

Toni Rose Deanon  39:27  
Right. And I think like one of the things that we have to keep in mind too, like if we're feeling that way and then someone tells you to stop feeling that way. You're just gonna end up being frustrated. So it's a whole cycle here Yeah, whole cycle. Okay, so last question, Zach and again, going back to this book, because again, who love they also mentioned decolonizing emotions, right? Because again, resistance is like loaded full of emotion. So then we want to decolonize the emotion so what that what does that mean is that you know, there's a shift of fear focus on SEL now in a lot of the schools, but then there's also a fight against having SEL and classes, social emotional learning and classes. So when you think about emotions, when you are a student, that your teachers make space for you to show up as you are, because I know that, you know, in your prior response, you said, you felt like your music teachers didn't allow for you to enjoy the music, like music was imposed on you. And so you wanted to create the space for your students to embrace the type of music that they listened to. And then also, like, incorporate it into what you're learning and teaching and so did your teachers make space for you to show up as you are? Because I know me growing up in South Georgia, there was no room for emotions like girl get over it. We're gonna keep moving.

Zach Diamond  40:42  
Yeah, no, I think no, until high school in high school, I think more so than in middle school and I barely remember middle school, but like that I what I'm thinking of is like choir in fifth grade or whatever, I think that this is gonna maybe give away how old I am. But we they were trying to be like hip, you know, until they got these like, choral transcriptions of Britney Spears songs, and made us lean on like 40 kids in the room singing Britney Spears. It was like, I was not into that at all. That's not what I listened to, you know? Although no, I love Britney Spears, Britney Spears, just like my nostalgia trip. I'm not gonna lie. But I was I was too much of a hipster. I think I was like two into like, you know, the Grateful Dead and Beethoven and whatever. And I was. So anyway, the answer is no. until high school. I think in high school, my teachers did a better job. And I had a really good experience in high school, actually. But yeah, that's that's what I was thinking of. When I said that.

Toni Rose Deanon  41:42  
Yeah, I mean, typically, like, as a society, right? Like, we tend to shift away from emotions, because it can get awkward and we don't like awkward situations. So when we think about decolonizing, it it's really like, thinking about how we think about emotions, right? Like, how do we feel about feelings? Because I know sometimes it'll be like, Oh, you're getting emotional, again, to a lot of women, right? Or like, oh, like, you're not supposed to cry to people who identify as male. Right? So it's like, it's a lot of Miskin, like, there's just a lot of assumptions, or at least expectations from certain individuals, or certain groups of people of how they can express their emotions. And so this is something that I've been sitting with and trying to also realize, like how do my values and my feelings about feelings show up in the places that I, that I create? And so this school year, how are you creating a space that is brave slash safe ish for your students to show up as they are?

Zach Diamond  42:36  
Well, I think that it's gonna be the same as the previous couple of years, because I feel like I've gotten to the place where I want to be with that. And obviously, there's more to do, there's always more work to do. There's always improvements. But I feel like my challenge is actually going to be take going in the other direction, taking a little bit of the control back, because sometimes, especially at the end of the 2122 school year, I was exhausted and I and I wasn't, I didn't actually, you know, push my students enough. And so I'm, I'm still trying to strike this balance, right, between letting them do completely whatever they want, which is not good. And controlling them, which is really bad. And honestly, I would rather fall on the on the former side of that scale, letting them kind of do whatever. Although I think that being in a totally chaotic and loud classroom is not good. I just I don't, when you talk about decolonizing emotions or decolonizing education, what I think of is that sort of, I imagine like a structure, like a systemic set of values and approaches and ways of teaching that that oppress our students, and fighting that working against that structure, trying to tear it down, trying to use different approaches, alternative approaches, obviously, like the modern classrooms model. That's what I think of when you use those words, right. And making a space for students to feel emotions, is I think, like, it's fundamental. I think, like, what what often goes unacknowledged is that students have emotions about that structure. Right? That's what I was saying before, like, they have feelings about being in school. And, you know, we often wonder, like, why our students don't feel like they belong in school, but we also, you know, we take their phones away, and we yell at them sometimes. And we do all these things that are like, you know, it's not, it's not the way that you treat a person when you want them to feel positively, you know, and so, I have pretty much like, spent the past two years avoiding that, trying to find ways to completely shut that out and try different approaches. But I think what I need to do is balance that with a little bit, sort of raising my standards for my students academically while still taking that approach. So I don't know that's almost a backwards answer to your question.

Toni Rose Deanon  44:57  
It's not it's not it's not a backwards? Answer, Zachz, I actually really appreciate that. Because that that itself is a self reflection that just like came out with such beautiful answers, right? Because that's the thing, right? Like we you realize that there's something that's lacking or there's something that needs to be changed. And it's like, oh, wait, I need to actually increase, like my expectations, like, I need to have higher expectations for my students, because they can actually, you know, they can do it, they can do it. And so you're continually like, reflecting on your practices. And I really, really, really appreciate that. So that no, that was a great, that was a great response.

Zach Diamond  45:41  
Okay. I'm glad.

Toni Rose Deanon  45:44  
Yeah, don't don't like don't invalidate yourself or like, Don't say like, Oh, that was backward. No, like, that was a legit, that was a good, that was a good answer. Because I think sometimes it's, it's hard for educators even just for individuals to think about like, oh, what can we I, myself as an individual do better for other people, right? It because it's so much easier to just point fingers at folks and just say like, oh, well, they can't do it, or like, they're never going to reach this, right. But I really appreciate you saying like, No, I, this is what I need to do. And this is what I am still grappling with, and I'm gonna find a balance, and it's gonna work out and it's gonna be great. So thank you for sharing. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Zach Diamond  46:25  
Well, yeah, I guess to again, to tie this into resistance, right. It's like, I just hope that you and I saying these things. Sometimes actually, I feel like some of these things that we're saying don't often get said, right. And I just hope that some teachers can hear this and be like, okay, good, right. It's not just me. Yeah, you know, the, the fear, right? The, like, the, the well, the dread, and the fear of trying something new that maybe won't even work, right. You know, the school year just goes on, you can always change. It is scary. It is scary to try out something new, especially if it's your first time using the model. It can be scary. And so yeah, I don't know, I liked this episode a lot. I hope that this episode is useful for somebody.

Toni Rose Deanon  47:08  
Yeah, I mean, if anything, right, like moving pebbles. Like you said, Yeah, listeners definitely, like give time and space for your emotions, it really is okay to have all the emotions that you have. And resistance, it just means that there's a lot of emotions behind that resistance. And so giving a lot of grace and patience to yourself as you feel those emotions and that resistance, and also giving grace to everybody who's in and who's involved in a child's learning journey. So with that being said, we're going to continue having these conversations this month, which I'm really stoked about. listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast at modern classrooms.org/ 152. We'll have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Fridays, so be sure to check their check back in the show notes for this episode, if you'd like to access those. Thank you all so much for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. And as always, Zach, this is just so much fun doing this with you.

Zach Diamond  48:11  
Yes, I had so much fun. This was a great episode. Yay. Thanks, Toni Rose. Yeah,

Toni Rose Deanon  48:16  
thank you. I'll talk to you later.

Zach Diamond  48:22  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our muddle through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai