Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Toni Rose Deanon 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode 159 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they/them pronouns, a Community Engagement Manager here at MCP and I'm joined by my former middle school teacher and leader and now principal coach Maya Stewart, and former middle school teacher, elementary principal and now Director of Partner Engagement at Modern Classrooms Project, James Edmond, welcome Maya and James. Maya Stewart 0:52 Hello. James Edmond 0:53 Thank you, Tony. Toni Rose Deanon 0:54 It is so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. I know that I'm really excited. And I just told you too, that literally, this is the only thing I was looking forward to this week. So I'm just really, really, really stoked to be in this space. And so before we get started with all of my questions for both of you as school leaders what is bringing you joy currently so we'll start with Maya. Maya Stewart 1:17 Oh, thank you, Toni Rose. Reality TV. I am the people out there. There's lots of judgment. People can cast whatever they want. I am your reality TV girl. The only thing I don't do is like read the magazines. But I can tell you just about every franchise and reality TV and the fall is when they all come back. And so Real Housewives of Atlanta their reunion happening. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City their season premiere just aired. I that is where my mind is and I've watched it all I know so much about these strangers, but it brings me a lot of joy. Toni Rose Deanon 1:57 Maya I feel like you and I need to have a side conversation on Hoochie Daddies cuz. Okay, good. Good. Good. Yes. That's all we're saying about that. James, what about you? James Edmond 2:15 Oh, my goodness, mine seems so like, mundane or not as exciting as what you guys are going through. But I was saying this to Toni Rose, right before we get started every morning is my time. And I walked seven or eight miles about two hours every morning outside in nature, just doing my best to get myself to a level of calm and ready for the de energized to do the work that I do, but also to support my family and Toni Rose knows I have four kids and a wonderful spouse and but it's a lot of energy that I expend on a daily basis. So my walks eight miles are my joy and they get me ready for my day. My family is my joy too. But truly my walks are really bringing me joy every morning. Toni Rose Deanon 3:06 And I'm over here thinking my two miles in the morning was long. So eight miles and joy. I never thought I would hear those two together. Kudos to you, James. Because i One day One day I aspired to that to do that. Okay, well tell us more about who you are and how you started your education journey, Maya and then James. Maya Stewart 3:32 Um, so I am there. Like, I'm super one of those like open book people where I want others to turn the pages. But I guess for the context of this conversation, the things that are most important is that I'm black, and I'm queer. I live in Washington, DC that also is part of the context and education because I really believe that DC has always and will continue to be a mover and shaker in K 12 disruption and setting trends. I wanted to be a principal since I was five years old. And the only way you could do that was to be a teacher first. And so I was everybody's teacher even in the summer like stealing worksheets and taking childcare asking to be a teacher to my teddy bears, and came back to DC after college. And I like I like saying the rest is history. We're really is not right, the rest of it is in my story, right? Somebody said that I was worthy. And I already knew I had to juice and one day you know, it felt like somebody just whispered in my ear, you're gonna be the principal. It really literally happened overnight. A few people who probably listened to this are like, girl that is not what happened. But I was chosen to be the principal. It's a crazy story. And it felt like it was it all worked out in the stars for me. And so I was middle school principal for quite some time. I felt like yours, and it was yours but it felt like centuries. And then I transitioned away from that work to start to think about myself and to get my values to be more aligned. And now I coach principals. And I always say that all of the things that I went through as a assistant principal and a principal, that the the successes and the the challenges, they're there, I went through them so that I could coach people now, right? I'm not telling people to do things that I would never do. I don't understand. I did it. And so it feels like a gift to be able to be sharing insight with people now. Toni Rose Deanon 5:31 And I just also want to say, I remember finding out that you were gonna be the principal. And just like celebrating, like, I was just like, Oh, my God. Yes, yes, yes. So, it was so lovely to see you, like move up. And then also just to have you as like, my principal, I was like, so so so so so proud of it. So thank you for like, it wasn't a simple journey. Like you just like, simplified it. But it was just so beautiful. So thank you for that. What about you, James? I'm also really curious, James, because I feel like you and I have spent some time together. But I don't think I've ever asked you this question. James Edmond 6:08 Yeah, so for me, kind of like my I knew early on, in my schooling, that I wanted to be a teacher. And that's because I had amazing teachers at elementary and middle school in particular, who took me under their wing, and everyday showed me that they love me. And I've had the opportunity to honor two or three of those teachers as I became a leader, to let them know the impact that they had on me, but as early as third grade in Mrs. Fingers third grade class, when she just loved me up, and I was raised by a single mom. So I don't think I totally knew I was looking for somebody else also to be there for me, and to show me they cared about me. But I had those teachers along the way. And the first time in seventh grade, when Mrs. Curran took one of my English papers, and sat me down and told me what a fantastic writer I was, and how much she used love my penmanship, I was hooked. That feeling that I got from her saying to me, like, once again, like you said, my, you're worthy. Like you, you are a great student, I was like, I want to do this for others. So from that point, I was like, I'm going to be a teacher. I'm going to teach English. And then the pathway to leadership, just came once again, by people kind of tapping me on the shoulder and saying, Hey, do you think you'd be interested in being a leader? Because I see this in you. And I've always felt like, the universe is speaking to me if others are coming to me and saying, You should go this route. And here's why. I have a hard time saying, though, I really do. So that's how leadership has, you know, really, how I got to the point that I did, and then did some other service opportunities. When people tapped me on the shoulder, I just just like this, when Tony rose comes asking, Hey, do you want to be a part of something? Can't say no to Tony rose. So that's kind of where my leadership to if you need me, I'm going to be there for you. And that's because early on in life, there are a lot of people in education that were there for me. Toni Rose Deanon 8:08 Oh, I love that so much. That really like resonates. And listeners, I'm in a room full of middle school English teachers, like how did I get so lucky. I find middle school English teachers to be literally the dopest folks alive. And so that's great, James, thank you for sharing that. And I feel like my journey is very similar. It was my fifth grade teacher who inspired me to become a teacher. And that's just such a beautiful cycle, right? And the influence of educators now it's just really, really important and something that we don't talk about often. And so my we're going to shift right like, I was just talking about how you were my principal and how I miss you so much. And hands down still my favorite thus far. And so I just felt really seen and validated and valued as an educator working under you. So really, thank you for that. Like I again, continue to sing your praises. Whenever folks asked me what this a school leader look like, I always just name all of your qualities. And so how are you able to prioritize establishing relationships with your educators amidst all the things that you are doing? Because I'm not a principal? I've never been a principal I have no desire to be a principal. And I just know it's so you're juggling so many? So many things. Right? And so how did you prioritize like relationships? Maya Stewart 9:28 Every time you say that I'm still your fate like your number one it is just I wish I could record it. Like I now have this recording, but it's it always blows me away because I just felt like I was doing what I was supposed to do. I recognized that I was doing it in a different way. I just felt it and to this day, I still feel like I was just doing what I was like I was doing the job. And I don't know I just feel like that is something that I want to make sure I tap because sometimes there's just like this madness. See that we put with school leadership that you are supposed to be this, you know, magical Oracle and like you just kind of do the job and do it your way, but do it from start to finish. When you ask, like, how did I prioritize relationships? It really came down to my values, right? Like, where we worked, that school even right now does the most. If if one school doesn't a the school where we worked, did it the Z way? You know, there's two steps to do it, we added 17 additional steps. And it was because at the heart of it, we did what was most convenient for students, not adults. And I mean, you remember, it puts a lot of teachers off like, bro, do we have to do it this way? Yes. But I felt like the only way I could serve the school's audacious mission and vision was to keep the people doing the work motivated. The only way I could like, inspire and fuel y'all was to be myself. And to make sure y'all got what y'all needed to take care of the tiny people. And the only way I can make sure you get what you need, as if I actually know who you are like, I can't just, I think this is something that I see schools doing now, where you know, you're shooting in the dark around, what would motivate people make them feel included, make them feel seen and valued. You're doing things that you found on the internet, when your data source, your stakeholder is walking through your home right now. They're right there. You don't need to go anywhere else or read and Google, you know, Google will read in Washington Post article, the people who will you you are serving so they can serve are in front of you. And spending time to truly understand their motivations, their values, it releases them to take care of the tiny people. So like I just made sure my values were already aligned. Right. It's it's something that I actually believed in. But I'm really a relationship person, I really believe in the relationship capital, even from when I was a teacher and I had kids in my class people like how you get her to do that. Because she knows I care about her. That's how I get it, you know, because her mom knows that, you know, I can text her mom, her mom will be on the way, I just think is undersold capital, right, those relationships actually matter. And not in the sense of like, I know all the data about you know, I know that you're getting married, or I know that you're you have your god kids this weekend. So you can't do that extra thing I asked you to do I actually have to know the people. And it was hard because it was about 75, y'all. But I also was like, What do I need to know. And the rest of that it's none of my business Toni Rose Deanon 12:47 of and you did a really, really good job to my with like, stating our strengths and weaknesses, you like really worked like you knew, like, oh, go to this person for this thing. Since you're struggling with this thing. It was a really collaborative space. For me. That was how I kind of took it. And and now that hearing you talk, it's kind of like the things that we do as teachers, we can continue doing as school leaders, right. And it's like, sometimes we forget that. And that's so wild. And you had a really good point too, because you know, I lead a lot of webinars and workshops now. And I'm always like, Oh, what, what can I raffle off? Like, what could they really want? And it's like, oh, let me just ask them. There's no need for me to like, waste all this time googling all the cool things that educators want right now. And it's like, my community is right here. So let's just have a conversation. So thank you for just kind of reminding just our listeners and just people to just be like, ask, just ask in. And you'll get all and that's kind of like very similar with students, right? Ask what they need. And they will tell you. So thank you for that. And James, I'm sure that if I had your principal, you'd also be taught to write my being the first and then it's you. But I learned that you really prioritize social emotional well being of your educators when you are a principal and your school leader, and I like my heart melted when I found that out. And I was like, well, also not a surprise, because of the time that I've spent with you like we just cackle the entire time we're together. And so What strategies did you implement to prioritize educator wellness and mental health at your school? James Edmond 14:28 Right? So you learned this about me to in my view, probably would have been my favorite principle too. So I'm not even going to argue with that some of the stuff that you've had to say here, but for me, leadership and just life in general comes down to people or more than their title. And I think you kind of alluded to that Maya as well. Like when somebody walks into the building that I'm so lucky to serve. If they teach fourth grade, fifth grade, first grade kindergarten, it doesn't matter. That's a label but there's so much more than that. Right, we all have rich histories of good times and bad times, challenges, successes, families, you name it, right? There's so much more that makes us who we are. And that always excited me to get to know that side of the people that I was able to collaborate with on a daily basis. The challenge Am I know, that is when you have a staff of 75 plus, and you have competing priorities, which leadership that you work with, may not see social emotional wellness of the educators under their supervision, or even sometimes social emotional wellness for students, they may not see that as a priority, it is the achievement score in whatever content area, so sometimes you run up against those budding priorities. But for me, I always believed and knew that if the staff did not feel valued, did not feel like they had a safe space, to speak to me or speak to others about what was going on for them, either professionally, or personally. They weren't going to be their best for the kids that were in front of them. Right. And we were a PBIS school we always talked about and planned around SEL and whether it was teaching, or it was just how we engaged students and families. I always modeled right you walk the walk, you talk the talk. So you know to you were all in middle school, but I ended up living in the elementary space. And so I was always hugging on and being hugged by little kids. And, and having those little conversations and showing them that, hey, I'm here for you. You know, you're not going to only see me when a baby something goes wrong. And you got to talk to Dr. Edmund, I'm here for here for you on the playground when you're playing let's play kickball. Let's go on the swing, right? So just transfer that up to to the teachers to the staff, what can you do on a daily basis that makes them feel like you might not give them a hug, but there's always a safe space where they can come and they can talk to you about what's challenging them. And I'm such a relationship, blue green guy that I always made time in my schedule, I even dedicated 15 to 30 minutes, we call that connect time with with with teachers and staff every month where they could come into my office. And we talked about whatever it is that they wanted to talk to. So this was in addition to me just trying to be visible. But just sit down and talk to me about life. If you want to talk about curriculum, you want to talk about students or families or staff challenges, we can do that. But we can just sit down and talk. Right. So it's all about making time, the most valuable asset assets of life is having time. So making the time where people can just be and know that you're there for them. That's huge. And leadership. Toni Rose Deanon 17:54 I mean, now that you're talking about this too, right? Like, I remember my 15 minute check ins with Maya. And it was probably like, what my like, every two weeks or maybe even once a month, right. But I remember that 15 minutes just rejuvenating me as a human being as an event as an educator as well to like, validate everything that I'm feeling. And then also like, if Maya did have some feedback or critique for me, I'm like, Oh, she's doing it because she cares about me. And this is a way for me to improve my my teaching skills, my teaching and learning skills. And so I just, I just really appreciate it like, yeah, it was only 15 minutes. But man, those 15 minutes made a huge difference in my own mental health of like, I feel seen, I feel valued, I feel validated. Right. And I think the big thing that you said to James is like being visible, it's so important to be visible. Even just like standing outside in the hallway, walking around and saying hi, right, like, because sometimes I feel like I've worked in schools before where I've never seen the principal, like they were just always in their office, closed doors. Nothing right. And so I really appreciate you naming like, that is a quote unquote simple thing to do. Just do a walk through, right? Just say hate of books like that. That's really, really great. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. James Edmond 19:21 And I needed it as much as I needed it as much as they did. Okay. So, as a leader, there's so many other things that can bog down upon you that you have to oversee and decisions you have to make that sometimes you don't agree with. So please give me that human contact, whether it's student, even if it's an angry parent, just give me something different where I can make a connection, maybe rebuild a relationship, so I needed it as much as as the staff did, and the students did too. So Toni Rose Deanon 19:52 you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna shift away from our questions because like now I'm really curious, right like, you both were teachers Middle School, too. Teachers and so you worked with students, and then becoming school leaders, you're working with adults. Right? So how do you, I guess, how do you manage or navigate like conversations and like making sure that you take care of all the adults, not just your educators, because now you brought up families and caregivers as well. Right? So then how do you make space for even our families and caregivers to come in? And be themselves but also like protecting yourself, like protecting your peace? How do you job balance that out? Maya Stewart 20:31 I felt like I had did it as needed, right? Because the principal, when, when a family is not happy with the service that they're receiving, they want to speak to the manager. Like any other, if you go to a restaurant, your steak is overcooked, this broccoli doesn't taste right, you want to speak to the manager. And to not to oversimplify the student. I mean, the school family relationship, but essentially, you're providing the student with a service, the family is getting a service. And you I think the best thing I did to protect my peace was to just be honest, around things that were gonna happen and not gonna happen. And listen, I think there's this almost inclination as a school leader to turn into like your mama, bear your papa bear and protect your school's reputation, or defend the actions of a teacher. And in reality, if if the family is voicing a concern, or something that they're not pleased with, it's because they care, right? Like they, they, they not just care about the human being that is a part of their family, but they care about the school. And so they're speaking up, right? If I'm happy with all nine parts have something but the 10th part I'm not pleased with, I can't have to care enough to say something. And if they're saying enough to the principal, I just always, always used to think like, they could be doing anything. And they're telling me giving me feedback. So I have to honor it in a way where it's like, I have to suspend my own reality, suspend my own judgment, and look at it as a data point, I'm not receiving the service. I'm the organizer of the service. So if the sixth grader is saying this, a seventh grader is saying, this eighth grader is saying something, and the family is perceiving whatever it to be, then I had to do my due diligence to go investigate what's actually happening here, and come to my own conclusion. I don't know, I think it was easy for me to protect my peace, because I just assumed that the family, you don't hear from people for 180 days, but one day, they say something to you, in my mind is like, this is significant. You know, like, I could be at work, I don't do school, my own K 12, Zwiers. I think about like, my mom went to work, I went to school, at the end of the day, we talked about it, and that was it. And I think a lot of families move in that way where you expect, like you engage with the school to whatever extent you can and necessary. And so if you never hear from a family and one time you get an email one time you get a phone call, that is going to be their impression of around how you care about their student. So I protected my piece, because I just assumed that the families, they care so much that this thing is like stopping them from moving forward in our relationship. It's almost like romantic, right? Where it's like, if I don't fix this thing, we might end up breaking up. And if it's meant to be I gotta do what I can to keep the relationship going. I know it's like, not there. I'm comparing apples to kiwi. So sweet. But it works in my head. Toni Rose Deanon 23:40 Yeah, that that was beautifully said. And all I could think about was like, dang, that's a lot of like emotional intelligence, your emotional intelligence is like, so high. Cuz I talked to a lot of school leaders, and it's just very much like, oh, you know, like, families are complaining families are coming at me and like it that can be draining. But I love how you said of like, no, they're coming because they care. And it's like a positive assumption that I'm not taking it personally. It's not it's not me. It's literally them caring for again, they're humans and the school culture. And so like, wait, what a beautiful way to think. See, this is this is why I just like I love this. This is so great. James about you. James Edmond 24:23 Yeah, the one thing I would add to that my that was beautifully said too, I always assumed best intentions, right? And there's always a story behind the story. And one thing I came to, I was able to find out when you sat long enough and got to know some families really well is they might share with you their own school experience that impacts how they view the experience that their child they're perceiving they're going to have or the experience that they might have. And so that could be some of the mama bear papa bear that would walk into my office. During the school year because of their own experiences and not wanting their child to have that similar experience because of something that didn't go right for them, too. So they're trusting us with their most precious like thing in their world. And think about that, right at the age of sometimes three and four years old parents are saying, Here you go stranger, take take my child, you're going to have them all day long. And please love them, like I love them. And hopefully, that happens. And when it doesn't, absolutely, every parent's going to be a little concerned and maybe want to have your ear and talk about it. And just like with staff, it's no different. You have an open door, you let them in you listen, you acknowledge doesn't mean you're always going to agree with what's being said, like Maya said, you will protect people and staff when you need to, from things that are being said about them. Or you're going to investigate things to make sure that truly you get to the bottom of a story. But in the end, I always try to believe in best intentions, and hope that we're going to come to some type of agreement or conclusion that we all feel good walking away from, that's all about those relationships again, and doing your best to, to make sure that everybody feels seen and heard. Toni Rose Deanon 26:20 And I feel like I definitely needed this the beginning of my teaching journey. Because even as a teacher, right, like, I would be like, Oh my gosh, just parent wants to have a conversation with me about point blank, like it just my my whole body just like clenches, right, instead of opening and extracting and just be like, welcome. Let's have a conversation. So I think, you know, listeners, if you're an educator like this is also good, like welcome it in it is all about like, people just care, they care. Like when they come and have questions, or they're up in arms about something, it's because they care. And this is something I always tell folks to it's like, there's a lot of caring, and may not show up the way that you're used to it showing up. But it doesn't mean that it's like, you know, anything different. And so I appreciate that. Thank you. And so let's continue the conversation about like, creating a positive and supportive school culture, because that's hard. And I hear all the time. It really depends on the leader. Right? And so with all of the stakeholders that are involved, how do you create and foster a positive supportive school culture where like, because you can't make everyone happy? Right? You can't make everyone happy? So how, how do you do this to where like, it's a positive and supportive school culture, not just for the students, and not just for the families and caregivers, but also, if not, especially the educators because sometimes I feel like as an educator, I get like, people don't think about me sometimes. So, James, let's start with you. Like, how do you do it? James Edmond 27:53 As a firm believer in wellness in general, and that can be social, emotional, physical, though, for me, sometimes physical has taken a backseat to social, emotional and my own mental health, right. So finding the balance, and all three of those areas, has been a personal challenge for me, even though I know how important all three facets of wellness are. It's been no different for educators, especially post COVID, and really trying to ensure that when they come back into a physical space, that they had the tools that they needed to feel safe and to feel productive and, and have the energy. So in my last few years as a elementary principal, for sure, I really focus on social emotional wellness and making sure wellness was happening as part of our PD days before school after school, voluntary optional staff, outings, like really trying to build this cohesive family that can be there for one another in a variety of ways. So they're there as content specialists with 20 Plus kids every day, huge job. One of the most important jobs in this whole world, right is to serve kids and help them get from point A to wherever they want to aspire to be as they get older. And there's a lot of pressure that comes with that, especially these days, given the political, educational climate that is happening. Schools are under a microscope more now. Now more than ever. So if I could build in a Wellness Wednesday, we're in the morning, teachers could come in and we'd do a yoga class together or do meditation. I created a separate classroom space where we had yoga mats, we had lava lamps, we had special lighting where if somebody just needed to go in and take a moment, you know, just lay on the floor. You don't have to do yoga, but you just need to lay on the floor and decompress. We had those types of things going on. I brought in a nutritionist to one of our PD days to just talk about different things that help teachers sustained energy Throughout the day, right, if this versus this, we'd do nature hikes, we were very blessed to have a wonderful field, this area behind our school were one of my teachers who had a passion for outdoor education created this walking path that teachers would walk on together during their lunch periods. To, to just have some time right away from the pressures of teaching. So always really trying to open up opportunities. Even with me, you know, that 15 minutes that we talked about where I set aside time for staff members, we do walk and talk. So get out of my Get out of my office, get out of the classroom, let's go outside, let's walk the campus and just talk together to right. So just trying to create spaces within the school environment where teachers knew that the organization, or at least Dr. Edmund, who really wants the best for me, he wants me to have time to take care of myself, if I need to leave early, someone here has got my back, they'll cover my class if I just need space. So just being intentional about making sure that people have what they need to be the best that they can be, I tried to find more and more opportunities to do that as a leader. Toni Rose Deanon 31:17 Those are some really, really great ideas. The talk and walk, that's my favorite, like whenever I'm on calls, I'm gonna go for a walk because I don't want to stare at my computer, right, especially in the virtual world. So thank you for sharing that. What about you, Maya? Maya Stewart 31:32 Yeah, I think I mean, James just offers a school where it's like, everybody wins, right? Like, I could go lay on the floor in the middle of the workday. I mean, I do that now. But when I was teaching seventh graders, and I had 26 of them in a room, I would definitely love to go somewhere and lay on the floor when they leave, like just to go calm my nerves. And it makes me think about like, for myself that thing, I think about the positive and supportive culture, it starts at the top where you have your senior leadership space, because that is where your academic or like your AED goals sometimes come into conflict with your ops goals, right? Like the operation team, your central office crew, they are keeping the machine alive, that keeping the lights on keeping the heat or the AC on there, you know, making sure that you all survived the audit. And then you have your ED team that does everything else. And sometimes looking back, we'll sit in those meetings and think, How do I to some, to some extent, and this is gonna sound controversial, but it's really not. But how do I protect my teachers, right, because obviously is going to say they need to do this thing, or the state board is going to say that this thing needs to happen. And it's easy for me to just hand it off to the teachers and say, go do this is due on this day. But that is just it's doesn't work. Because my job is actually to protect them from others, protect them from themselves, and keep them protected from me. And so when I think about like the wellness of adults, I think about it, it's like before I even go out and engage with the adults, so let's leave them alone. There's no better culture at a school than the teachers being left alone. Leave them alone, people who are listening, leave the teachers alone, let them do their magic. Let them be content experts, let them vent to each other. Let them go have drinks together. If they can give them cookies, just leave them alone to be content experts, the fewest amount of minutes hours you can spend harassing them with your next bright idea. scrap it, don't do it. I mean, and there were a lot of bright ideas that were born and died in my office. Because I would come up with it do a whole one pager about it turned to one of my APs and say what are you thinking? I'd be like? No, you said, direct them and protect them from themselves. This is a whole bunch of other minutes. And then they will even cascade the minutes that it would take to implement and assess this new bright idea. And they'll be like it's not happening. And I'm like, You're right. It's not happening. And I would just file it away. And then I think that sometimes the social emotional needs get lost because people naturally not educators. And particularly this is not something particularly to the ED sector, but we find that you get a passion project something that you really like, for example, when I was a seventh grade teacher way back when I really liked using the outsiders as an anchor text. That book is great in its own right I know you got to Ponyboy Tete Tony rose. English teachers we get it's great book love to watch the movie. You want kids to love the book. There are volumes of works that are more current, and act as mirrors and windows to students that are in classes today. And so having to turn to the cemetery English team and say, kill the outside of the unit and their grief process in mitigating that and manage their social emotional needs. Because in January when they're launching the unit, they don't have to hear me saying, Ah, this assessment doesn't work. This doesn't spiral the way it should. It doesn't actually get students to mastery, I can break their heart in advance, and let them manage their grief and tell them they're not doing this. And it gives them the freedom to move through. And they're not like thinking on the back end, I'm going to surprise them with the now do this or wait make this magic happen in two weeks. I think that school leaders undersell the idea that the social emotional needs sometimes for teachers and educators period and your building. They need you to tell them no. And not I don't mean no just like no for no reason. But sometimes you need to protect them from themselves in the in the in the early stages. So it can give birth or give fruit later down the line. Right? Or, you know, I have a teacher, Tony rose, you were one of the teachers, you would have these bright ideas. And I'd be like, it's cool says no, we're not doing it. And it wasn't like it wasn't a good idea. It's not because I didn't love you. There's no time, I had to direct you and protect you from yourself. And then the last thing I'll say around social emotional needs before you even start dealing with people is consistency. Something that I think school leaders struggle with, often I know I did, is that we have a mission and vision is what teachers and educators in your building are doing every day consistent with that thing. Whatever we're going after, you can protect PII, you can build a positive staff culture, if people know you're going to do what you say you're going to do. And whatever happens to Tony rose also happens to James also happens to Maya, whatever we say we're going to do that. And I would say that this, these three things are proactive ways to build a positive culture, right? Because a lot of it is firefighting, and reactive. But these are the kinds of things that if you have these mindsets, it's going to stop you from creating a whole bunch of other problems. And sometimes, I'm willing to say this, I won't even give that generalization. I'll say for me, in my experience, some of the fights that I had, were just people were just mad. They're like, Yes, I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I knew that you're right, we were wrong. Or I got an email from this person telling me to do this on Monday and email from this person telling me to do this on Monday, which one do you want me to do. And without that consistency, it really really does the school, the staff struggles and suffers first. So I would say like, you want to be able to prioritize wellness and like to James's point, to be able to have teachers who have a space to do what they need to do and decompress. You really have to hold these specific mindsets as each day goes through, to protect them from themselves and help them in the front. Toni Rose Deanon 38:09 You know, you said a lot of great things Maya and all I can think about is the outsiders comment. Toni Rose Deanon 38:19 I just feel really called out because of my tattoo and I have grown that we need better books. For today's for today's kids. Okay, like listeners i Yes, we there are so many other books out there that we can expose our students to because I'm also the one that's like realizing as a student, there was no representation at all right? Like a lot of the books that I read were by white authors, and it was about white kids. And so and then I have all these tattoos done by like my favorite authors who are white, and I'm like, oh my god permanent. What is happening? So growth, also protecting my peace. Thank you, Maya, because I definitely was that teacher like James. I know, I told you like I do too much. And Maya was always like, Yo, what? Like, no. Great idea. No. So I appreciate that. And like, again, like your leadership really prepared me for feedback and knowing that like, you know what, like people who are giving me feedback, or people who care enough to give me feedback. So and it was was a good shift for me in a good like way for me to accept like, okay, my school leader cares, and I do have great ideas. It's just a lot. So let's, let's hone in. Right. Okay. So listeners, we're gonna take a quick break for community events for the upcoming week. And then when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about James and my experiences. Zach Diamond 39:57 Hey there listeners This is Zach As you know, at the modern classrooms project, we believe deeply in student centered learning. We've seen it in our classrooms all over the world. When you step down from the front of the classroom and commit to self paced, mastery based instruction, you are actually able to meet students needs. If you're looking for support in launching a modern classroom, you have one last chance to sign up for our virtual mentorship program starting in October. Scholarships are available for educators who teach multilingual learners, students with learning differences. Educators in Minnesota, Chicago, New York City, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Oakland, California, and Washington, DC and Baltimore and more, you can apply for a scholarship by October 6, at modernclassrooms.org/scholarships. Of course, I'll have that in the show notes. But for now, let's get back into it with Toni Rose, Maya and James. Toni Rose Deanon 40:57 All right, and now we're back with Maya and James. And so James, how do you encourage open communication between educators and admin school leaders regarding their concerns, and this could be like wellbeing concerns like, like personal stuff, but like not really getting into the nitty gritty like, right, so like my I said before, okay, I just need to know what I need to know the other things you don't got to tell me. So how do you open up this communication with your educators, James Edmond 41:29 I think creating space where you can once again, and I think Maya did this, I did it, where you can have dedicated time you is on your calendar, within a day, within a week, within a month for you know, 20 rows, if you're in my building, I know I'm going to have some space and time with you where we can get to know one another. Not just what you do as a educator, but who you are as a person. It makes it so much easier for me to know how to help you rise to the level of not only the educator that you hope to be every day, but the person you want to be and that's that's the once again, principle, right, Dr. Edmund principle, but I'm James Edmond, Jr, the son of surely Edmund, the son of James, Edmund, there's so much more to me than the title that I hold. And ultimately, the connection that I want to have with you is a human connection. One way you can come into my office, I'll never forget one of my teachers. She was pregnant with triplets and went through so much to get to that point. It was a it was a challenge to become pregnant, and then had triplets. Sadly, along the journey of the pregnancy, she lost two of the three children and continued to teach during those struggles. And she and I had conversation, nothing to do with her classroom. I knew she was doing the best that she possibly could. Obviously I asked what can I do to support you in that setting. But we just talked about life. We talked about her journey, how she was feeling where her headspace was what you know, that in the end, those are the relationship pieces of being a professional that matter the most to me, I won't remember necessarily a lesson I observed in her classroom, or any of the initiatives that we were talking about together. But she and I bonded greatly over just her life experience. And something that came back to me because of that was there was somebody else in another building who had a similar struggle. And she had shared with that educator over there, that I was there for her. When it mattered most that got back to me. And for me, those are the things that I hang my hat on as a leader is if somebody felt like I was there for them in their time of need, or in their personal space, it doesn't have to be something that tragic, or that, you know, life changing, but they just knew that I was there for them as a human and hopefully considered me a friend or somebody at least that they felt that they could go to in the end. That's all that matters most. So carving out that time, when time is hard to carve out, especially as a leader is important. But if you value it, that's how you protect yourself. My us keeps talking about protecting staff and protecting students. We have to protect what's most important to us as people and leaders. And so having that time I protected it in my calendar and hopefully, the staff who met with me felt like it was important enough and made a difference for them to Toni Rose Deanon 44:54 I mean, James that that was really just such a nice reminder that people or have so many layers, right? We only see what we want other people to see. We don't really see all the internal struggles that happen all the time. And it's really interesting too, because again, I just chuckled in my head because I remember conversations with my about my dating journey. Nothing to do with teaching, but man, she had some wise words to be like, You're being a mess. Please calm down. And that I was like, Oh, I can't wait for our next check in. You know? And, and you're right, like people talk, right? Like, your staff will talk about this space that you've created for them. And, and that's very similar to teachers, right with teachers, right? Like my students talk to each other to every to all the other students about like, hey, what was Ms. D doing in that class? Because y'all look like, Oh, we're having so much fun, right? Or like, Oh, can you believe we did this statement? So it's like that whole talking piece as well of like, oh, there's your that's what you want to be known for? Right? Like providing this like space for people to just be. So then Maya, what role does professional development play in addressing educator wellness? And how did you tailor it to their needs? Now, I chose this question specifically for you. Because James said in the beginning, that that he had like optional staff meetings, right. And so what I loved about how Maya navigator managed this whole thing was like, we had 15 minute staff meetings. And it was like, quick, concise, you had a chance to ask questions, you didn't give me questions. So we're going to talk site, like we're going to talk outside of the staff meeting, but like, you just protected our time, so well. And when you were saying earlier to leave the educators alone, I felt that because you were just like, you have this open space, go do your grades, go do whatever you think is necessary. Hey, if y'all want to go grab drinks, that's also community building, have fun, right? And it was just like that autonomy, and I just felt really like cared for. So how did how did you plan your professional development because, again, as an educator, and both of y'all as educators, y'all probably sat through a lot of PD, and you were like, This is trash. This is a waste of my time, I'm gonna keep grading. And I've been bothered about what they're saying, like when is what am I going to eat? What am I going to eat? What am I going to do tomorrow? Like really not paying attention? So how did you make it to where like, PD was meaningful and intentional for your teacher so that teachers felt taken care of? Maya Stewart 47:35 Yeah, I always I was always the one when we were planning pre service or the annual PDF saying, like, do we have to do that? Like, do we? I think the other senior leaders would not be pleased with me, because they're like, man, we have these goals. And I'm like, Yeah, but do we have to do that? Do I? I also was a critical consumer, as a teacher, and I was the first person to be like, bruh, I don't want to go to this, I want to go, can I go? Is this over? Can I go? And so I plan with myself at the margin, right? I thought about myself, I thought, if it could be self guided, make yourself got it. Leave me alone, let people go. I think that sometimes, k 12 education sector makes it seem like teachers are the only professionals who need like, step by step directions, like, doctors don't really go to PD. They just like my go to a conference couple years, a couple of times a year, maybe every couple of years, but they go and do their thing. And they're trusted to govern themselves. And somehow we lost the trust of educators. I think the important part around PD, specifically about wellness, is that we make an assumption that the same wellness that works for you would work for me would work for them. And that is not the case. But I think what is like the overarching mindset is that people do have to be forced, particularly teachers who are doing noble work and give so much of themselves have to be taught and forced to prioritize their wellness like you, I would say to people who are supervised, I need to see your self care goal and your annual goals. And every year, they'll be like, Oh, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for walks every day. And I'm like, is it on your calendar? That can be a goal, what's the goal, the walks, or, you know, I'm going to find a new therapist, and you got to trust that adults can do the thing that is best for them. But for educators, in my experience, I've literally had to force them to prioritize themselves, and remind them that it's okay, so like, oh, you know, I'm really sick. So, or I need to go see this kind of doctor, this specialist, and they only meet on Tuesdays from 12 to 130. So I just wait until next year, no says leave. The kids will be fine. We'll be fine. Nobody's on fire. And so I always think about tailoring needs of like, the same way I want kids to get choice, I want the adults to get choice, the same way students get a learning menu, the adult should get a learning menu. And my last two years in the principal role, our pre service was half day, I'm like, Nah, y'all gonna come in here and act like you'd like it from age 13, to lunchtime, and the rest of the day, figure it out, you want a lesson plan, you want to go do something special to your room, you want to go and make this really cool thing that you think kids are going, by all means, go do what you can do for yourself. But you're gonna have to show and prove how you're taking care of yourself. And if I noticed that you're slipping, I'm gonna say something. And we're going to intervene around that. But I just don't think that around educator wellness educators, if if in my experience, were left to their own devices, they're not going to take care of themselves. And I think that the the pandemic, the early stages of the pandemic was a portal where you got you had no choice, but to take care of yourself. But I'm finding in the code that people want coaching now and hearing their stories, that educators are reverting, not back to taking care of themselves. And so I would offer to listeners and anyone else, is that we have to force educators to be hard on a wellness goal, some type of aspiration, you have to do something for yourself. And the best thing in the school can do is to give the people their time back, leave them alone, what they need to learn if it can happen. On zoom, if you can do self guided make it so if it can be an email, send us an email and leave people alone, Toni Rose Deanon 51:37 huh? Yeah, yeah. And yeah, like, all of that, like, I just so grateful to have had you as my principal, because then I know what, what works like what works, right. And so we have like, a couple of minutes left, and I just kind of want to do like a really quick answer, right? So Maya, modern classrooms came in to DCI, and you were just like, go for it. And there were like, 20 of us who signed up, and we all felt super supported. And like, we were all motivated to do this new instructional model. And you were just again, like hyping us up, if anything, like you really took a step back, and you're like, do what you think is best for the kids. And I love that. And so you were just able to create that space, right? And then now, James, you're in modern classrooms full time, and you're working with a lot of school leaders. And so some of some of the questions that I get is basically like, how can school leaders support? It's not a new initiative, it's just like a different way of teaching and learning, right? How do you support educators when they want to revamp and shift their learning and teaching philosophies and beliefs into something away from the traditional, like teaching and learning? How do you how do you do that, James? Like, how do you have these conversations in school leaders? Who are like, A, I've never heard of this? And I don't want to do it be? I don't know what it looks like. So therefore, like scrap it, right? And again, these are like resistance, right? Like, because they don't know, right? And also because they care. Right? So how do you have these conversations with school leaders? James Edmond 53:19 I think the most important thing is and Mike and I both sat in that seat is proof to me, when when time and money is hard to come by prove to me that this is effective? How do I know that if I enter into this, this is going to move the needle that only for my educators, but my students? What does that mean? Connect them with the people who are doing the work? Right? At my passion project, we have partners who have taken a leap of faith, who like my sad, you guys, you know what? Go do it. So much of this is just about having the courage to say we know the old thing isn't working, there is no way that every child is getting what they need. And every teacher is as effective as they want to be. So we have now in our five years of existence, partners, and proven data that proves the effectiveness of what we do. So sometimes it's not so much about what I say I listen, once again, it's about relationships. Tell me about your journey. Tell me about your school. Tell me about your organization. What are the people above you think about change, right? Is everything coming at you? And you have no say? Or do you have some autonomy, and you can do things that you think are going to revolutionize education in your building because you know, in the end it's about those students and getting them from point A to point B. Well if you don't, if you need help, if you need support if you need proof. Let us connect you build a relationship with Another colleague who's doing this work, and sometimes that's all it takes. That's part of the conversations I have with a lot of people is, you know, you've got to prove it to me. Well, we can prove it to you. And and once again, it's about building those relationships and understanding where people are coming from, because their journey is different than mine. And so how can we making a connection that's gonna make an impact? Toni Rose Deanon 55:21 Yeah, I mean, and also just the fact that like, with Maya, it was optional, right? Like Maya did not mandate, Maya, it was just like, Oh, you want to do it, go do it. Have fun, show me how to do it. Show me all the cool things. But then we do have some school leaders who are like, top down, like, Y'all are gonna do this. And those are like, also conversations again, right, that we need to have of how to like, roll something out like this. James Edmond 55:45 One of my favorite terms is fail forward. Right? If you gave it your best, and you really believed that this was something that was going to impact others positively. And it didn't work out, fail forward. Right. So we have to be comfortable with, with change and risk in order to to really evolve as people and as professionals. Toni Rose Deanon 56:05 I love that. Maya, did you have anything else? Maya Stewart 56:10 I don't think there's anything to add Oh, actually, it probably is. You'd have to be open to experimentation. I just think that schools, I just do the same thing. Every year they suck at that you might be marginally decent, you might be serving, you know, 20% of your kids, your families, everyone comes to back school not great. And life doesn't work like that you have to iterate. So you just have to be open to experimentation. Even if you're like, we're going to try it for half a half a year or with just this team like you. If you're not having any form of like, trial and error in your school. What are you doing? Toni Rose Deanon 56:47 I feel I have so many, like we have so many questions that we didn't get to. And I want to be respectful of your time. So we're actually gonna wrap up sadly, listeners, I will have my as and James LinkedIn information in the show notes, so you'll be able to reach out, you know, sliding their DMS, say hello. Because they're amazing people. And so thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, James and Maya for honestly, given me so much joy today, like, I don't even care about anyone else. It's honestly just me. Thank you for this joy. I appreciate it. listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast app modern classrooms.org/ 159. We'll have this episodes transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Maya and James, just thank you. Maya Stewart 57:41 Thank you. James Edmond 57:43 Thank you, Tony rose. Zach Diamond 57:49 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.