Zach Diamond  0:03  
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello, and welcome to episode 169 of the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they them pronouns, a Community Engagement Manager here at MCP, and I am joined by retired teacher of 30 years who worked at a specialized school welcome BA.

BA  0:42  
Good morning.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:45  
It's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast before we get started. What is bringing you joy currently? Currently,

BA  0:54  
I'm retired. So that brings me some joy. But one of my concerns going into retirement was staying busy. And that has not been a challenge. So so I'm able to stay busy and, and be retired. So it's that's very joyful.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:11  
Hey, and again, thank you for your service of 30 years. That's incredible. And I know that I hear to what retirement you just kind of like Okay, now what?

BA  1:22  
I'm I'm retired relatively early, I think. But I've got lots I've found already for sure. I've got lots more things to do.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:31  
Yes. Don't we all? Don't we all? Okay, well, I'm really excited to get to know UBA because I knew that you're really highly recommended, honestly, because we're talking about creating an accessible physical learning environment. And we were just talking previously, and I said, you know, sometimes we don't think about this. Or maybe majority of the times you don't think about creating an accessible physical learning environment, right? We talk about learning differences. We talk about a lot of things. And yet this is one that I was like, okay, when we're thinking about a classroom layout, or just like a learning environment layout, right? Like, how can we ensure that, that our students who may have, you know, who may have wheelchairs or crutches or any kind of physical disability, how do we make sure that it is inclusive and accessible? And so with that being said, Tell us more about who you are? Because I'm really interested, and then how you started your education journey? Okay,

BA  2:25  
well, I'm, I was born in Baltimore City. And that's where I grew up. And when I was myself in third grade, I would get, particularly my math work, I would get done pretty quickly. And so the teachers were letting me volunteer in one of the special ed classrooms, and it was preschool. I don't know what the how it would have been described at that time. This is like, you know, 45 years ago, but, but basically, they were the students have arrived pretty variety of pretty impactful cognitive and physical disabilities. And I just fell in love with those kids. As an eight year old, I would just go in there and be a kid with them. And I can remember in particular, and experience where there was a student who had been mute, I believe, selective mute, and they had never heard him make a sound. And I just went and played with him. And got he got belly laughing so hard, that the teacher was going to get other teachers who worked with him to come and see this. And, and I was just having fun. But between him and a number of the other kids, I just fell in love with them, and found it to come naturally. And some would say a gift, but I just, it was just something that I really enjoyed. So I continued then, to volunteer with that classroom and go back, as I got older and even moved on to middle and high school when I got an opportunity to go back and just volunteer and hang out there. I would. So that kind of set the tone for me to go into special ed.

Toni Rose Deanon  4:19  
I love that so much so young BA and eight years old, right? And, and I think like the belly laughter right? I think sometimes we human beings are just so sometimes afraid to interact with people who are different than us because we may offend them or do something that's not, you know, seen as Okay, or whatever. And so I think like sometimes we just forget to treat people like human beings. 

BA  4:43  
That was we were just kids being kids. I mean, 

Toni Rose Deanon  4:46  
yeah. 

BA  4:47  
And that's, that's the bottom line. Now, any of these kids are just kids. And if you start there, you're ahead of the game. Right?

Toni Rose Deanon  4:54  
Right. Right. So I appreciate you sharing that and so, okay, well, what The key principles of accessibility in the context of physical learning environments, right? And why do you think it's important to prioritize them in educational settings? So,

BA  5:09  
I guess, I mean, I said, I think we need to look at students who have special needs, just as kids. So my approach as a teacher was, okay, here's what all the other students are doing, how can I assist this child to do it as well? And so what do I need to do? And so that was my, that was really my baseline. And, and in the school that I taught in most of my years, it was all special needs. And so we were looking at it from the class perspective of Okay, other kids play volleyball, so how can these students play volleyball. And so we would, then I would go to my best teacher supply school store, which was Home Depot or, you know, somewhere like that, and find what we needed to, to be able to create a situation for them to do it. So. So that was one thing from the teacher, that was my perspective. But what's important is, these, my all of my students, they need the freedom to be able to explore their environment, just as any student would, they need to be able to learn by doing not just watching other students do. And they need to be allowed to have some autonomy, like, you know, I don't want to do this anymore, I want to do that. Instead, they need that opportunity to get into trouble. You know, so they can learn that, no, it's not okay for you to go get into those things. Now, if I have a student who I know likes to knock down that container of crayons, I'm gonna put a container of crayons deliberately, in his reach, so that he could knock it down, I'm gonna maybe limit it to eight crayons instead of the 500. But I can't teach him or her to not pull down the container of crayons, if he can't, he needs that opportunity to be able to reach up and grab those things and dump them so that we can then teach her why that's not okay to do. 

Toni Rose Deanon  7:21  
I really liked that. I really liked that perspective, right of like, let's give, let's give our learners the opportunity to get in trouble, right? Because it's honestly also just thinking about, like, let's, let's let them make mistakes. Like, it's okay, go ahead and provide those options for them, the opportunities for them to make to make those mistakes, because I do wholeheartedly believe that we learn a lot from our mistakes, we can't, we're not perfect. And when we make, you know, we make opportunities for mistakes to happen and for our, our learners to embrace those mistakes and learn from them. I think it's such a, it's a beautiful journey. Another thing that I was thinking about to BA, I'm thinking back in my my teaching career, I was in the classroom for 10 years, and I only had one student in a wheelchair, and that was probably my ninth or 10th year of teaching. And we really had to figure out like, oh my gosh, like the desk size, right? Like this not it doesn't work with our student, and then the placement of like, where, you know, they would go in and of course, having like big enough like, like little hallways like clear, you know, making sure it's clear and that they're able to move around. And it was just like one of those things where I was like, wow, like, I never even considered this right. And, and I've had students, right, and crutches before, because of like sports or whatever, right? Something happened where they had to have something that takes up a little bit more space. And so really being mindful of like our placement of desks and how we group them and like making sure the walkways are clear, so that, you know, folks are not hurting each other. I think that that's really important too. And then even thinking about my own schooling my own K through 12 experience, I had one classmate who was in a wheelchair, and I felt like it was just such an isolating experience because like you said, it was just a lot of her just kind of sitting back and watching because she couldn't participate, which I think is is wild to Yeah, and I'm just now thinking and reflecting back right so. Okay, so with that being said, right, like how can educators and school administrators collaborate to ensure that physical learning environments are inclusive and accessible for all students, including those with disabilities? 

BA  9:54  
Yeah, I think I mean, again, to me in the environment that I was in If we had to, we had, you know, every student there had some kind of disabilities or special needs that we had to consider, but and other teacher Vironment that I was involved in, I was collaborating with the regular ed classroom. And so my students, we would go and join them for a certain class periods every day. And so I had a great teaming situation with the other teacher in that every morning, I would just first walk down to Martha's suite where she was and, you know, we'd kind of just informally talk about what we're doing today. And, and I was always looking at it from the perspective of okay, how can I make sure that the students that I'm bringing down, can fully participate, and she was just so accommodating, and one of the simplest things this the students I was working with, at that time, we're in a program for students with emotional disabilities, and we had a lot of behavioral issues. And so that one of the simplest things, you know, we wanted my students four or five students to feel fully included. But there would be, you know, I had to constantly be interacting with them. And so one of the simplest things we did was, you know, she had like pods of desks around her classroom. And so we had one of my students in each pod, but we positioned them so that I could kind of walk the perimeter, and be able to engage with each student without having to go through the middle or be disruptive. And just that simple thing that we did from the start it ever impacted every single day. So part of it is, when you're designing your classroom, think about, you know, what are the activities? What is the structure of my class going to be? And how can I do it so that this child, you know, generally speaking, you would probably no, the students you would have coming in unless you got a new student, but how can I, with this child with her needs? How can I make sure that she's able to be included? And, you know, maybe she can't get over to the science station that I want to have? So how can I make that science station come to her maybe, you know, so. So it's, it got, it has to happen before you're in the middle of that lesson, it has to be something that you're thinking about ahead of time. And it often is pretty simple. And also, you know, we go back to, you know, the peers, you know, maybe there might be another peer who rather than go to the station would benefit from bringing it back to their desk, you know, or bringing it back and working with your student with a special needs. So it doesn't just have to be a modification for that child, it could be a modification, one of the things we found in that classroom, when I collaborated, was the modifications that we were making for my students served a lot of other students, it allowed them, you know, and we could let them make a choice that's powerful to them. And why not? If it's going to be there, and we're already preparing for that option, why not make it an option for the other kids? Because, again, that normalizes for lack of a better word, the situation, you know, if if it's not just that one student who has to go work at their desk, or has to do it a different way, deliberately have a group, you know, ask, Oh, who wants to come work here, and maybe even make it a privilege to be able to do it that way? So it's, it's kind of a mindset, and at first, it's uncomfortable, but when you're planning your units, that needs to be a part of your plan. Here's the lesson here are our academic goals. Here are the materials I need? What are the modifications that I need to make sure that all of the students can be fully included?

Toni Rose Deanon  14:16  
And I think that's a really nice reminder, too, that modifications is not just for one, it's really good for a lot of the kids that we don't even think about right? And like you said, options, having options is always key. And this just got me thinking to VA so here at modern classrooms, we you know, we focus on blended, self paced and mastery based learning, right, and so students are kind of all over the place just based off of their pacing, right. Of course, we have the guidelines of the suggested deadlines, as well as the hard deadlines, and to something that we think we talk about too is the organization of our physical classroom right and like so we have a mastery Like a mastery check place in the classroom so that teachers know like, visually, that students who are in that corner are taking their mastery checks. And then we also have like instructional Ness. So like those small group teachings with teachers, again, having a small group, right, and so there's different placements in the room. And now I'm thinking it does require a lot of moving pieces. And a lot of our educators also practice flexible seating, which I think is really powerful too, just so that folks, again, our students can choose wherever they'd like to sit just so that they can continue their learning, right. And so now I'm thinking, you know, what you were talking about how, hey, there may be this, this grouping over here, like the science lab, right. And there's not really a great way and effective way to access that. So like bringing it back. And so I'm thinking for educators, it could just be like a visual representation to write of like, Hey, if you have, let's say, like a cup, right, and you put it on your desk, that means that you're taking your mastery check. So there's no movement involved, right? And so but there's always that option, or like, Hey, if you need the space to be in the mastery, check corner, cool, go for it. But if you also don't feel like moving, put this red cup on your desk, so that I know, you're taking your mastery check. And so I'm just starting to think about like all the different ways that we can create a more accessible and inclusive spot, right. So for example, I get like for for students who may struggle with movement, for whatever reason, right, and providing that option for them. So my mind is just kind of going in all kinds of places. So so thank you for that. Ba. And so I think now we're you know, let's, let's shift to some, like practical examples of how technology and design can be integrated to create more accessible classrooms and school buildings, because you know, technology is just like, everywhere, and nowhere for some for some folks, right? And so, do you have any practical examples of how technology and design can be integrated? 

BA  17:02  
Well, I mean, some of the I'm old school, so so to me, the low tech can be the high tech. And I can give you a one example back to that how the kids play volleyball. So some of our students physically have very limited, fine motor, very limited gross motor. And so we wanted to say, Okay, we're going to PE class are going to play volleyball, how can this child in a wheelchair, who has limited movement, serve the volleyball. So one of the things our PE teacher did, we had, we have a number of devices, we call them switch adapted devices. And so they're available, if you have students who are, are, have multiple disabilities are very limited physically. There are so many things out there that someone else has probably invented using Velcro PVC, and a pool noodle. So those are the things that, you know, that's where there's specialized teachers, special ed teachers come in, but we had a situation where we wanted this kid to be able to serve the volleyball. So brains get together devices get together. And essentially, we had a, you know, the, the bowling ball ramp that you might see, for students in a in a wheelchair. So we took the bowling ball ramp, we had a leaf blower, mounted to it going up the ramp, okay, if you can visualize this. And so the beach ball would sit at the top of the ramp, the leaf blower was pointed up at it. And when the students would hit a switch that was connected to the leaf blower, it would blow and launch that beach wall, way over over the net. So again, it was it's a mindset of, hey, we're gonna play volleyball today, how can Jaden join in the volleyball game. And that was one way. And those were things that those switch adapted devices are something that I really enjoyed trying to figure out a way to, to access what others would consider to be everyday things. You know, using the that kind of technology, so that's pretty, really pretty low tech, in terms of the high tech world that in my years of teaching has evolved so much, and the price points have come down so much that you can, you know, go on, just go online and buy some of these things, even up to an eye gaze device for technology back to low tech. I have this little boy I'm working with right now. His fine motor motor skill are very limited in that when he wants, he really wants to color he really wants to do what he's in kindergarten, he wants to do what all the other kindergarteners are doing. But he can't hold a crayon or marker. So he can grasp like this and move his hand. So so for those of you who aren't able to see, he can make a fist and kind of grasp something. But he can't hold it as you would hold a writing utensil. So again, just brainstorming, I was able to find a wrist splint that kids would use when they're rollerblading, right. So I took that mounted an old dry erase marker shell on it. And it turns out that a dry erase marker shell will hold a Crayola marker perfectly. So now he's got a glove with this shell on it that you can switch out the color of the Crayola marker, and he is able to color and draw. And this was just last two weeks ago that we introduced this to him and, and his teachers, it's mind blowing. And to him, he can hold that marker and move it around. Because that wrist splint number one, it's helping to keep his wrist firm. But it he doesn't have to worry about grasping the marker, he just has to move his hand in the direction he wants it to go. It cost I think $2.49 at Goodwill is where I got the wrist splint. So so that's my low tech solutions, the high tech solutions, that same wrist splint, I've found a way to mount a stylus. So now he can then use the stylus to interact with the touchscreen. So he's right beside the other kids with his Chromebook, being able to do the touch screen on, again, the same exact then academic activities that the other kids are doing.

Toni Rose Deanon  22:12  
And again, BA You just reminded me of just low tech is still tech, right? Innovation itself is just really it doesn't even have to be technology. It's just how can you innovate something so that it is accessible for all of our learners, and that our learners feel like they are a part of the learning environment. And so they don't feel othered. And so I really, really appreciate you just stating like there's low tech innovations out here that you can make it more accessible for students. And I think there is there was like a news report that I was watching. And I can't remember the specific details. But I remember, it was an elementary school. And all the students realize that they had classmates who couldn't participate because of wheelchairs because of physical disabilities, right. And so they raised money to create a playground, so that all of their friends can can play on the playground. And they're not just sitting back and just watching everyone else be filled with joy, being able to access the playground that they can't access. And I just thought that is such a great, like whoever guided the students to create this, like this fundraiser. It's just not it's just magical, right. And for the kids to come together and create that inclusive environment for their peers. I just found that to be so cool. Just so great. And, and so I'm thinking to now as an educator, Gen Ed, right, in Gen Ed. And I'm thinking like, oh, man, I already have so many things to do. This is like one more thing that I have to do, right? And, and I always tell our community, if you're out of ideas, or if you're like your brain is just not functioning, ask your consumers ask your students, what can you do to create a space that's more accessible to create a space that's more inclusive, and our students come up with the best ideas? Right? 

BA  24:15  
If you're looking for a STEM project, there you go. I mean, talk about your real life problem solving, you know, borrow, borrow a manual wheelchair and let the other kids try it. I mean, that's an incredible activity of problem solving. And, and, you know, my experience, the younger the kids are, the more quick they just embrace the child with the special needs. If you you know, when I'm with with my students, often the students that I had because of their level disability, they were also nonverbal or non communicative, and so other students might come up and ask You know, what's that thing on his leg? Or why? What happened to him? And so one thing I always do, and it's a habit, it, it becomes a habit, but it's so important. Before I answer that question, I always look at the student that he's asking about and say, you know, I'm gonna Is it okay? If I talk about you for a minute? And, and then it's just a matter of respect. Number one, you're respecting that child who can't speak for himself, you're also modeling to that other child, don't ask me, you know, he's right here, he exists, he's a person. And you just model that. And that's in that smallest little thing. And if there happens to be an adult standing by you just taught that adult, something really important to so and so then I'll say, Well, you know, this little boy that I'm working with, right now, he has cerebral palsy. And so he, the explanation that I've come up with his peers who are also five years old, you know, is, well, his muscles are so strong that sometimes he can't get them to do what he wants. And, and they go, okay. And that's it. Their question was answered, they're on their way. Or they'll or they'll think about it a little bit. But they, they accept that. They don't judge him for that. And so, and then, but they also want him to play, they want him to play cars, you know. So they'll figure it out, the kids will teach us. It's like you said, if you present the problem to them, how can we let him come and play cars. But if they see that they want him to play, and they've got the cars, they kind of started to figure it out themselves. So you need to allow them and encourage that. But again, if you're, you know, the reality is sometimes things cost money, you do end up having do fundraisers, but not all the time. Sometimes there are simpler ways to make it happen. But the kids want it to happen. So and you know, if a kid wants to the cookie jar, that you just put what you thought was out of their reach, they could find a way to get it. So it's kind of a similar problem.

Toni Rose Deanon  27:24  
Yeah. And again, just a life lesson here, right of asking for permission to be like, Hey, is it okay? If I if I speak, right? If I talk about you for a little bit, as opposed to speaking about someone without permission, or just speaking over someone, that's another thing that I feel like a lot of people tend to do. And so that, like you said, it's just a lot of modeling. Right? There's that curiosity. And it's okay to be curious. Yeah. Right. And I think that there's also a way to be curious, in an empathetic way, right? Because I think as an adult now, we this is so wild ba but ever since I shaved my head, I cannot count how many times people have asked me if it's because I went through a health issue, right. And in my head, I'm like, yo, you just met me? How was that? The first thing you asked me? Yeah, right. Like that, to me is mind blowing. And so there's, there's definitely a way to ask questions that you're curious about. And so I think just being mindful, right, I think sometimes I always tell people, you know, that individual will talk about will tell you about themselves, and what they tell you about themselves as their priority about who they are. Right? And so the more that you get to know that that person, then eventually maybe some of your questions will be asked, and they are comfortable enough to share with you whatever disability they have, or whatever health issues they have, but like to ask, and I think this is more so for adults, really. And I think kids, our kids are more really just more of like a, an innocent curiosity of just like, hey, like, what is that? And I think also as, as like, families or caregivers, right? really embracing that curiosity, and not reprimanding the kids for asking questions. I think that's really important, too.

BA  29:17  
Yeah, I agree. I mean, that's what I was gonna say sometimes, when the kid asked the parent that's with them will right, you know, don't ask that that's rude and try to correct them right away. And, you know, kids naturally are going to be curious, chances are the adult is standing there wondering the same thing, but feels awkward or doesn't know how to ask or as you say, sometimes it's not appropriate to ask five year olds, they don't have to, they're going to skew No, right? It's bizarre in my experience, the student that they're asking about doesn't mind VNS they would rather you ask than stare at them or the fraid because what tends to happen with younger kids is if they see a brace a student were in an orthotic or a brace, they associate it that they're hurt. And they want to know if it hurts, and, and the kid who's wearing it generally, they just want them to know, no, it doesn't hurt. It's, you know, they really don't it's like me wearing an earring, you know, to them. But I think in general, ask the question, do it in a respectful way. And then once the question is answered, like I said, kids can then go, okay, and then they move on, you know, it's the adults were the ones that have the hang up, you know, and, and again, and the and the empathy, but not sympathy. You know, again, friends that I know that have wheelchairs or devices, they don't want you to feel sorry for them. You know, they want you to understand, Okay, I can't, I might not be able to do that the same way as you. But that that's it, that's just a small thing. Let's move on. In, in most situations, it's, they just want to be a part of what is going on. And, and as educators, our challenge is to figure out how to make that happen. Because we kind of do define the environment. So we have to, we just have to, like I said, once, once you make it a regular part of your thinking, it doesn't become extra work or a burden. And often, the solution that you're coming up with for that child's situation, you stumble onto, like you just said, you stumble on to things, oh, this surprised work for this other child or this other child like your red cup idea. I mean, you know, it turns out that by solving that one problem, you've actually come up with some really good ideas for other situations.

Toni Rose Deanon  32:04  
Yeah, and I, you know, I'm even thinking about like, what, what is, what is the quote, unquote, right way to approach and have a, or ask a question as an adult, right. And I think something that I do BA is I always say, Hey, I have a question. And you're totally, it's totally okay. If you can say, like, mind your business? No, I'm not gonna answer that. Right. Like, I always say it because I know, sometimes questions can be either triggering or too personal or like, folks don't wanna answer. And so I, you know, I still want to be curious, but like you said, in a, in an empathetic way, and also just putting it out there in the beginning, the permission to deny right to not answer the question, and also like that space for that person to be able to, to process like, oh, do I want to have this conversation? Or do I not want to have this conversation? So I've gotten a lot of, I don't want to talk about that right now. Or no, I don't want to say anything. And that's okay. With me. I'm like, okay, cool. Noted. Right. And I think that that, that that's okay, that's okay. Right. I think just providing that space,

BA  33:14  
start out, is it okay for me to ask about? Is it okay, if I ask you a question about your wheelchair, you know, something along that line, but I think also, you know, I've had situations where I would take that student, you know, I know that other students are going to ask about this, right? So I might have a conversation with the student who has the special need and say, you know, if other kids are asking you about this, here are the things it's okay for you to say that, you know, prepare them, you know, because, and chances are they've already experienced it, but it might be something that bothers them or that they are afraid of maybe, sometimes it's appropriate to if it's okay with that student, to say, Hey, is it okay, if I talked to the class about your chair? Because they've got a lot of questions, or include them certainly let the questions be directed to them. And sometimes they might not know how to answer it. Or, you know, like I said, sometimes you'll have a student who will say, you know, what's wrong with you? And so it's like, well, how do I answer that there's nothing you know, there's nothing wrong with me and, and that can make that child that they're asking start to think, oh, there's something wrong with me, you know, so, so to prepare, to prepare them to feel those questions, but then also, if a student if a student says What's wrong with you, don't just, you know, discipline them or correct them. You You need to give them another alternative. You can't say Don't ask that question that's rude without then saying, Hey, here's what you could ask, you have to give them a replacement, because they're still wondering, in their mind, they're still wondering what's wrong with him. And in some cases, even an adult. I've, I've heard this from adults believe, what did that child do to deserve that? You know, and that's, I can't understand that mindset. But that's the mindset that some people have. And so, you know, we have to, we have to prepare both sides, you know, the kids who are wandering or want to ask the questions, we have to prepare the student who might be asked those questions. And then in terms of classroom management, you might have an appropriate time to ask those questions. Or, you know, if you do a social story, you can kind of address it all headed off at the past kind of, 

Toni Rose Deanon  36:00  
right. And I'm thinking too, it's better to talk about it than to not talk about it, like you said, right? 

BA  36:05  
Yeah. If you'renot talking about it, then it becomes the dark secret of something to be ashamed of, or something to be embarrassed of. And, and again, that tends to impact the adults  more than it does. Because the kids just get over it.

Toni Rose Deanon  36:24  
Yeah, and I'm also thinking too, that's, that's a learning opportunity, right? The question of what's wrong with you, hey, let's shift that because there are other ways to ask questions that are not what is wrong with you. And I think another thing too, my teacher cap is on and I'm thinking like, Okay, this would be a really great conversation for students, right? If that student in a wheelchair device is okay with it. I'm having students turn in questions beforehand, because this is what we do in our panels and our q&a, right, like having folks turn in questions before so we can feel like we can categorize the questions that we want to ask. And so that way, it's still a little bit in a controlled space, right? And not just like students saying some wild stuff, because that can happen as well. And and another thing to be that I thought about, there's one thing that I really, I think it's Oprah's Book of what happened to you. So instead, and this is like all about trauma, and instead of saying, What's wrong with you asking, like what happened, right, like, what happened, because it's something happened, right? And that's not assuming that it's like, a bad thing, or a good thing or whatever. It's just out of curiosity, like what what happened instead of saying what's wrong, because wrong means that you're not normal, you're other that you're not good. And so that shift was really huge for me, I rarely say like, what's wrong with you? I just say, like, what happened, right?

BA  37:49  
Or even what, you know, if they're talking about a piece of equipment, you know, what is that? Or why do you use that? Not what's wrong?

Toni Rose Deanon  37:59  
Right? Right. Or even just like saying, open ended, right? This is something what I tell our committee all the time is Tell me more. That's it.

BA  38:07  
That's good. And then, and then the other thing is, maybe define if you're going to do that conversation, or field those questions, again, maybe there's a certain area or topic that that child doesn't want to discuss. Right? And so you can lay that out there too.

Toni Rose Deanon  38:25  
Right? Right. And it's okay to to just say like, That's none of your business.

BA  38:31  
I did have a child whose aunt told him if any of the kids ask why you can't walk, then you tell him, that's none of your business. And I thought, well, I don't want to encourage that necessarily. Because, again, it's the kids are not asking it to be mean, they just want to know, and, and again, that's kind of where I came up with that answer of, you know, his muscles are so strong. You know, because this child in particular, he's starting to ask, why can't I walk? You know, and so, so that's a whole nother set of questions. But, but, you know, just trying to come up with a, with a honest, because in all honesty, that is I had never thought to put it into those words, but in all honesty, that is what's going on with his body. His, you know, he just can't get it to do what it wants. And it's not because he's not strong. Sometimes I can't get him to let go of something. But he just can't get his body to let go of it necessarily. So

Toni Rose Deanon  39:34  
and you're framing it in such a positive way that that students can understand. Right? And so that, again, makes it feel like normalized and good that hey, this is different. It's different from what you're used to, and that's okay. And so this is and I think, again, like, you know, you and I have been saying it's just let's just talk about it. Let's talk about it. Okay, so listeners, we're going to take a quick break for announcement and when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about creating assessable environments for all of our students.

Lisa Doty  40:07  
Are you an educator who implements blended self paced mastery based instruction in your classroom, join the modern classrooms community of innovative educators worldwide, and receive certified credentials, public recognition and access to exclusive swag. Hi there. I'm Lisa Dodie. And I get to work with educators like you as they begin their teacher leadership journey. By applying for the distinguished modern classroom educator credential Applications are accepted on a rolling basis. So you can apply anytime to get started, navigate to www dot modern classrooms.org, forward slash distinguished educators. That's www dot modern classrooms.org. Forward slash distinguished hyphen, educators, we look forward to reviewing your submission soon.

Toni Rose Deanon  41:04  
All right, and now we're back with BA. So ba we just had a really, really powerful conversation just about, you know, having conversations and how to ask questions in the best way possible, right? And we're gonna mess up and that's okay, so being okay to like, apologize for the question, or whatever it may be right. And so let's kind of and I guess we kind of talked about this already. But what challenges do educators in schools commonly face when striving to make physical learning environments more accessible? And what strategies can help overcome these challenges? I know that we talked about money being one of them. Right? And capacity is another one. Do you have anything else that you want to add on?

BA  41:46  
Yeah, I mean, I think money is definitely a factor, classroom size, and just your fit, you know, you have the work within that physical environment you've been given. The other thing is time, I think that's, you know, that is the, there's never enough time for the teachers in the classroom. And so again, I think once you start to develop it as a habit, that you don't use as much time and trying to figure out these problems. But I think if you can kind of set up your environment in a flexible way. And you're thinking in a flexible way, then it would apply to just about any activity that you are doing in the classroom. So So you have to be creative with all of those things, you have to be creative with your space, creative with your time and creative with your money, hence the goodwill, your teacher supply store. So but I think if you if you like it said, if you're going to set up stations in your classroom, you know, figure it out ahead of time before you're coming down to what the academic lesson is of the day, work on your environment. And I was in a kindergarten classroom, where the student has a wheelchair. And the teacher had set up tables. So you had to have like trapezoid tables butting up against each other. And that allowed six students at each table grouping and he was included, but his chair would not fit. It wasn't an issue of it not fitting under it was the legs, that his his chair was too wide to fit between the legs. And in his case, if all the other kids can sit up at the table, that's where we want him. In addition to that, because of his physical limitations, he needed that work surface to put his arms on, because then it allowed him to control his head better and to do other things. So So I asked the teacher I said, you know, I noticed she had an another area of the classroom, there was a rectangular table that she was going to be pulling kids to, to work individually. And so I just asked her Can we switch those tables? Because it would still allow the six kids at the table group. But the if he was on the long side of that table, his chair would fit right up underneath of it. And I mentioned that to her in the middle of a busy activity. I was in the classroom. And she said, Oh, yeah, we'll we'll we'll check into that. And then the next time I came into that classroom, she had done it, she had moved those tables, you know, he was right up at the in that circle and so she didn't have to change her lessons, her activities, her way of teaching. And she didn't have to think each day of how are we going to do this. She changed that one table and that solved the problem. So now She can go on with the lessons as she would have done, you know, where he not in her class, by making that one switch, which she was open to she listened, she was open to it, she changed it. And that's a long term solution, that, you know, maybe you've got that student who needs to be on the wide end of the table, just because you don't want him reaching the work of the kids next to, you know, so that there there goes another example of, you know, maybe putting one of those tables in a couple places, you know, could serve a couple purposes. And, and then you're, you know, you're no longer it's no longer during your time, it didn't cost any money. You know, and, and that student is still right in with the other students. 

Toni Rose Deanon  45:51  
when we think about spacing to write, you mentioned space, the classroom space, I know one of the things that I did, I think it was maybe the fifth year of my teaching, I got rid of furniture I didn't need in the classroom. So for example, my teacher desk, why do I need a teacher desk, so I got rid of that to create more space for for my students to be able to move around. And so I would really highly encourage our listeners and our teachers to just evaluate what's all in the room and get rid of the things that you don't actually need. And that that is challenging for a lot of people, right? Because as teachers, we are hoarders we keep everything. And so I think getting rid of furniture, getting rid of things that you don't need in the classroom, sometimes there are times where I also got rid of desks. So again, like the flexible seating, right, so of course, you'll have students who prefer desks, but then you have students who prefer yoga mats and laying on the floor and whatever else is providing that option. But getting rid of getting rid of furniture that are things that don't need to be in, in the physical classroom to save space is a really important thing to keep in mind, too. And a challenge, right?

BA  47:01  
My teacher, I was just saying, I've had my teacher desk in the closet for years. Because otherwise it I never really sat at who gets to actually sit at their desk when the kids are there. So I didn't need that desk in the room. All it became was a collecting ground for things. So mine was in the closet for quite a while. When I did have one. Yeah.

Toni Rose Deanon  47:26  
And I was even thinking, you know, and I did modern classroom to implemented the model, I just had a store. And I just walked around with my little stool and sat with whoever, what whichever group, whichever student whenever they needed me. So I was the one who was doing a lot of the movement in the classroom. Another thing that I was thinking about is AI, right, we have AI, which is such a powerful tool. And I think you know, for educators who may not know what cerebral palsy is, or you know, any kind of anything, honestly, because you know, they've just been teaching gen ed for such a long time or whatnot, I think AI would be a really good tool again, to just like, utilize like, Hey, what is this thing? How can I make my thing more accessible for someone who has this? So instead of thinking about it, and brainstorming in our heads, right, and like using up all that brain energy and just the energy and time, we can just go ahead and use AI because it's there, it's got lots of information, and it can sum it up for us. And then we have we're not starting with a blank slate. So I think again, I just want to encourage the using of AI so that it's saving us time and energy, and that there's something to begin with, right? So like, okay, I can try this thing out. And if it doesn't work for that specific student, then at least you know, that thing didn't work. And you can try another thing out. Right? 

BA  48:46  
Most things that I'm going to try with my students or that my students, you know, modifications they might require or equipment that they might use. If it's at all possible. I try it myself. You know, I had students who we, during the course of the day, we had to give them time to lay out on a mat, because they can't sit in their chair for more than a certain period of time. So there had to be time during the day where we had to get out and lay out on the mat. So I get down on the mat. I'm laying on the mat with them thinking, Okay, I can't sit up, I can't roll over. I'm laying on a mat and what do I see I see these old nasty ceiling tiles that have water stains, you know? And so, I went to my art teacher and I said, Hey, we need to do something. Can we decorate some of these ceiling tiles? And so what we did was she she was awesome. She took we took we got some brand new ceiling tiles, she actually drew a sketch of each child. And then we took the computer and projected it add onto the tile and she came in so the kids could watch this, this was a lesson, she took the tile Well, the kids got to pick a color to paint their tile. So then we painted the background colors on the tiles. And then she projected that sketch, outlined it with a sharpie and drew these kids. So and then we accessorize the like the hair bows and things we hot glued on. So now when these kids are out on the mat, taking that break, they've got something to look at. That's interesting, you know, or, if we wanted to do a slideshow, I could have the projector go up onto the ceiling, so that we're on the mat, you know, we're not just, it's not just wasted time or downtime. And guess what those other typical age peers would love to lay on the mat, and do their lesson looking at it projected on the ceiling, you know, so. So I put myself in those positions, you were talking about AI and technology, I gaze devices have come so far. But if you've never tried one, and you especially if you're gonna have a student who uses one, you need to try it, because it is exhausting. It is so exhausting to sit there and use your eyes to navigate a computer screen, it seems like it would be easy not take a lot of energy. It is it's very tiring. And so we have to recognize the work that that you know, the child is doing that lesson, you know, the cognitive, the academic lesson that you're presenting to them, which is work, but to use that eye gaze device is in itself, taking a lot of their energy. So so we have to, we have to think of ways to manage their energy, what they've got to give us, you know, what do we want it spent on, if we can let them relax on a mat? Well, while they're learning this lesson, maybe they don't have to spend as much energy. And they can take in that lesson a little bit more. So just a lot of put yourself I put myself this out, we found that the seat was backwards on a on a piece of equipment one time because it didn't feel right when when I got in, and I was like this doesn't make sense. And so, you know, put yourself in that position and let the other kids make it a classroom activity. You know, let everybody try it that way. And again, you build that empathy, empathy and that understanding.

Toni Rose Deanon  52:40  
Yeah, and I think, again, it's just quote unquote, best practice, right to do the thing that you want your students to do first, just so that you know exactly, not exactly, but you know, at least some of that perspective, or some of the questions that that students may have, right. So when we think about, for example, where we post our things in the classroom, right, like those anchor text, anchor posters, and making sure that it's not like all the way up here where you're hurting your neck, right, and making sure that it's right where our vision is so and that can also go with like the PowerPoint that you have, right? So if you have the PowerPoint up and you go sit in the back of the classroom, can you see everything that you're talking about, right? And so again, putting yourself in that in the shoes of where students could be so that you can anticipate some of the things that could potentially come up. And again, I think I think what you're saying too, is like the collaboration piece, like let's have conversations, let's talk to the colleagues, let's talk to peers, let's, let's talk to our students, let's talk to like, let's just come like, let's have a conversation, because two heads are better than one, three heads even better,

BA  53:53  
right? If they have a physical therapist, you know, if that student might get PT at SCORE ot at school, talk to those people. Another example. You know, if we have a student who constantly is leaning a certain way in the PT wants them to work on turning this way, right. So give me a motivation. Like why I don't want to do that work. If there's not a reason, it's like going to the gym. That's not my thing. So if you're just telling me to do this, because we want you to do that work, it's not going to happen. But that PT might say, well, when it's recess time, and they're doing something really fun and engaging that, you know, this kid wants to work to be a part of position them so that in order to get to the toys, they have to turn this way, you know, so that's a way to use that positioning just that individuals positioning and environment to work on. targets that they might have, where it's not just you saying okay, you need to sit out you need attorneys need to turn build it so that it's that they want it to happen. And then it just becomes a more natural piece. The other thing is, sometimes we think we're giving a student a break, and we're creating more work. And an example would be, you know, students who you might think, Oh, well, I'll let him recline, because then it will be easier. The problem is, if I'm reclined, and I'm looking straight ahead, I'm looking up in the air. So now, if I want to see what's going on, down there, I have to work to pull forward. And generally speaking, that's not something I want a kid working on, I don't want them working to bend forward, because then you're you're creating slouching, and, you know, bad habits. So, so involve those PTS, talk to them about things that you can do, again, that goes back to how that you're setting up your classroom. Maybe you want to sit that chart, you know, in that group of six students, which seat Do you want that child to be in? Well, if I'm trying to get them to work on turning to the right, and I know they like to pay attention to what everybody else is doing, I'm going to put them in that seat, where I'm going to take advantage of that natural curiosity of them. But maybe, if if they're tired, and, and that's a lot of physical work for them. And we're really focused focusing on a new lesson that they need to get, I might position of just the opposite, so that when they're in their comfortable, relaxed position, they're not physically working so hard. So they've got the energy to pay attention to what we're doing.

Toni Rose Deanon  56:46  
BA, I really appreciate this conversation, because I'm learning so much of just like the little tweaks. And again, right, like I said, like, this is something that I don't think about because I am very much privileged in a sense that I am able bodied. And I'm trying to disrupt that notion of like, No, I want to be able to make sure that I'm thinking of others. And when I say others, like everyone else who may not be capable of doing what I'm doing, right. And so I really just appreciate you just naming like, here's, here's a, here's a simple thing, right? It could be simple for you. And then for me, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that wasn't simple. You had to tell me that it was simple. And you You gave me some some strategies really to, to continue. Really trying to create that inclusive and accessible space, right? And like you said, there's really no, like, we're not going to get right the first time, there's going to be lots of tweaks, because it depends on our kids, right. And it depends on our capacity as well. And so I'm just really, really, really grateful for you teaching me because I think there's just a lot for me to internalize and a lot for me to process. And, and I think I also want to encourage our listeners to do your own research as well. I know, for me, I utilize social media a lot. And so I try to follow people who are different than me, just so that I can have a sense, not, you know, even a glimpse, because we know social media, right? Just a glimpse of how different that individual is living, but then also how similar they're living. Right? And so really trying to consume as much as I can with things that I don't know about. Because, again, we don't know what we don't know. Right? Right.

BA  58:25  
And sometimes those kids get to where, you know, as they, when they're a little bit older. The good thing is you can ask them, you know, I had a teacher who this is was one of the best ideas is like the beginning of the school year, one of the very first get to know you activities was she would ask the students to write down what is one thing that you wish your teacher from last year knew about you? Because I think sometimes, you know, students, they start to settle for the teachers just not gonna get it, you know, that I'm gonna have to deal with this every day. Simple as how to pronounce your name. You know, everyone's pronounced it wrong, since I started school, so but that one question of what what do you want me to know? And, and with that chat, that student who has those extra challenges that you're aware of check in with them periodically, you know, how did how do you? You know, we're getting ready to start this new unit. What can we do differently in the classroom? What can I change or do differently and give them permission to let you know or pointed out to you or even during the classroom day, give them permission to approach you and say, you know, Hey, I can't see what's going on or you know, I can I get a break from this. So it ultimately come is down really to being respectful of that individual and respecting their right and ability to speak up and let you know, I need this. And then the most important thing is to then hear them and listen to that, validate it, because if you say, let me know, when something is a challenge, and then they let you know, and, and you don't respond to it. That's worse than if you had ever asked them to begin with, you know, because now you've just said, Okay, well, I'm aware of what you need, but it's really not that important to me. And, and that is, you know, that's the biggest piece, if you're not going to respect it or respond to it, then then it's better out, you're better off to not ask them, 

Toni Rose Deanon  1:00:51  
BA, I know, via I was just about to say that to have like, hey, ask that and also acknowledge it right? Not just ask it and then never look at it. Right. And I think it again, it makes such a huge difference when students write something, and then you mention it, and then you pay attention to it. And they're just like, oh, my gosh, you actually do read the things that I'm writing? And it's like, yes, because you matter.

BA  1:01:10  
And if you can't, sometimes they might ask for something that you can't provide. And you still need to say that to them. You know, I, that's a good idea. But we can't do that. But what about that, can we do something this way, or is there another way, and include them, you know, because this isn't just in your classroom, this is their, their life, this is they're going to deal with these challenges in every aspect. And if you can just give them that one place to, to speak up and be validated. That's, you know, that's really important.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:01:50  
It's life skills, right? advocating for yourself. This is something I also tell my students all the time, it's like, there's one of me. And there's like, 25 30 of y'all. So if I am missing something, please let me know. So just creating this space, where students feel brave enough to ask questions, to advocate for themselves to push back, I welcome all of that, right. Like, I am not the end all, be all it again, one person, there's gonna be a lot of things I'm going to miss and I need y'all to like, call me in, I need you to hold me accountable when I am messing up when I am leaving something or when I didn't think about something, just let me know. Because I'm human being there's one of me, there's many of you, and that's okay. 

BA  1:02:33  
Then model that model that for them. Those mess ups are important. You know, though, model it for them? Yeah. You know, that's like those are those are important life lessons. So it's, it's important. Yeah.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:02:48  
Well, BA This was so much fun. Thank you so much for just sharing your expertise and your experiences with us. And again, I really just appreciate you teaching me because I learned so much in this conversation. So, listeners remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast at modern classrooms.org/ 169. We'll have this epics will have this episodes transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Also we are asking our listeners to leave a review of this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a blended self paced, mastery based learning environment. It does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday.

Zach Diamond  1:03:39  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modern class proj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast.