Zach Diamond  00:03
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Hello, and welcome to episode number 157 of the modern classrooms project podcast.  My name is Zach Diamond, and I'm a middle school digital music teacher in Washington DC. And today I am joined by Christine Walker, a high school World Language teacher in McMinnville, Oregon. And Craig Meyers, a sixth grade math teacher in Portland, Oregon, and an adjunct professor at Lewis and Clark University. And both Christina and Craig are distinguished monitor classroom educators, and expert mentors as well. So it is going to be a great episode. We're in great hands here. Welcome both of you to the podcast, Christine. And Craig, I'm so glad that you're joining me.

Christine Walker  01:05
Hey, 

Craig Meyers  01:06
hey, thank you.

Zach Diamond  01:08
Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited for this one. I feel like it's becoming a meme for me to say that because I'm always excited for these episodes. This one though. This is an episode on ungrading. And I've known about the book on Ungrading, which I believe is written by Susan Blum. And I'll have that in the show notes, of course. But when Toni Rose and I were putting together the schedule for this season of the podcast, I was like, I'm taking that one, because I need an excuse to read this book. And I have loved reading ungrading. We're going to be talking about it today, the topic of Ungrading and a little bit about how it connects with the modern classrooms approach. Before we get started, though, could both of you just sort of introduce yourselves to me into our listeners, tell us a little bit more about who you are and how you started your modern classrooms journey?

Christine Walker  01:59
Yeah, awesome. Thank you very much for inviting me. This is such an honor. Let's see. I'm a heritage German speaker who grew up in a multilingual multicultural household. Raised in McMinnville, Oregon, which is where I now have the honor to be the German teacher and World Language Department Chair. Let's see it was April of 2020, to my principal at the time, challenged the teachers at the high school to look into a new teaching method that's had run across her desk. And it was really innovative, she said, and she said it was an approach that would help all the students no matter what their learning differences are abilities, words, skill. And so yeah, after doing some my own research, I discovered that MCP could transform my teaching. So I just dove headfirst into the good work.

Zach Diamond  02:51
I love it. I love it. How about you, Craig?

Craig Meyers  02:55
Yeah, so I'm also excited to be here as well. And my MCP journey actually started when I was a high schooler. I was out at the high school out towards Sandy, Oregon, where I grew up. And my physics teacher was doing a self paced learning structure without any computers at all. And it was something that I've always strived to be as an educator. And you know, the first 10 years of my education career, I kept striving to get to that direction, never finding anything that really worked. And then the pandemic hit, and I started looking for things to make it successful. And one of the teachers here in my building, sent out a forwarded email that they got something I don't know, they must have been on some list and they forwarded the email about MCP and I was like, that's what I've been looking for. So kind of just jumped right into it. And I never did the full training part. I just did the free version and wrapped in enjoyed it and really latched on. And here we are now. Yeah, I actually learned quite a bit becoming a mentor because I was like, I never did this. This is so cool. That would have been helpful.

Zach Diamond  04:08
I love that I always love to hear about people who become mentors or who become the MCS having not taken the training because really, you know, the DMC credential is you can get it by just submitting it. You don't even need to take the free course you can just submit what you've got, and you could still get it, especially because you get to revise. I'm on the panel that reviews some of the DMC applications and yeah, some people don't do the training and and can still, you know, teach in a modern classroom. So that's very cool. And also we discovered before the podcast Well, I discovered both of you are in Oregon. And I thought that there was some connection like they're a teaching team, but it's just a coincidence just both in Oregon. So 

Christine Walker  04:45
yeah, go Oregon

Zach Diamond  04:46
great. West West Coast contingents coast. Alrighty, so let's talk about ungrading. And I wanted to open this discussion with a quote. I was telling Christine and Craig before the recording that I'm reading this book and My Kindle and the highlights that I'm making in this book are literally too long to save. They exceed the limit of Kindle highlights because everything in this book is making me go. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's a very good book. And I strongly recommend that our listeners, if they've heard about it, and haven't checked it out yet, go and pick it up and read it. But I wanted to start off with a quote. Because I think that this quote, really encapsulates sort of my feeling about the the themes that we have for the podcast this month, and last month, on sort of confronting and, you know, tearing down oppressive systems, the quote says, though, grading seems natural, inevitable, a part of the very fabric of school, it isn't, it was created at a certain moment, for certain reasons, not entirely, well thought out, and then became embedded in the structures of schools for most students. But because we invented it, we can uninvent it, we can remove it. And I thought that was just a really powerful quote, because a lot of the things that happened in schools, and a lot of the things that modern classrooms addresses, and just a lot of the things that teachers kind of know, are wrong. They're not part of the fabric of reality, right? They're, they're things that we can change. And it really, it feels very hopeful to read that quote to me. So I wanted to open the discussion with that. But let's talk about grading, and how we can maybe remove grading on grade. And let's dive into it. And I wanted to start off the discussion by asking you both what is ungrading for those who haven't maybe read the book? You know, what are we even talking about here? How does it differ from traditional approaches to assessment,

Craig Meyers  06:47
I mean, for me ungrading is looking at kind of just the students in terms of their learning. And when I always felt like when I assigned a grade, it's always bothered me to assign a grade, an overall grade to a student, because we're like learning all these skills. And in my district, the elementary students actually get like a four-pageproficiency-based grade report in the K-5 system. And it's all these like learning targets, and they get, you know, judged on the learning targets, and they can see the growth happening, then they get to middle school, and we have to come up with this overall grade. And so I've been part of like the, you know, the, all those little buzzwords around standard-based grading and proficiency based grading. But I still had to, at the end of the day, come up with this, like, single grade to represent the student. And it always bothered me, because to me, if we want lifelong learners, then we got to have some way to create this, like mindset around looking at beyond just a single value. And so for me, engraving is a way to kind of unpack that conversation and create this, like, starting point almost. And I had to actually read this book like two or three times, because there was just so much in it, that I, I've still been getting new stuff out of it. And but the goal for me is to like, get more of the details about how the student is learning and progressing. And be kind of creating that like mindset growth. So for me, it's, it's looking at it now, at the end of the day, I still have to give the kid a grade, because that's what I'm required to do. But I really try to train my students to like, look at more in terms of their, like learning structure and looking at how they're progressing throughout the course as we go through. And that has been a challenge. And I've had to work through some systems, but it's, it's definitely something that I want to continue in. It's funny that you read that quote, and just before that one, there was one that I really enjoyed, where he's talking about, like grading is something we never should have allowed to be naturalized. Hmm. And that was like one of my favorite quotes that was in the book, that the very, very beginning. And it's like talking about just like, we've made this like so natural to wear. Like, it's the first thing I'm asked on the very first day of school. You know, and I want to get it, you know, I'm like, It's not about that. So how do I get around that?

Zach Diamond  09:24
Yeah. Yeah, that's, those are all great points. And I just started school this week, I'm seeing and having now just read this book, you know, it's, you're right. Like, it's just so conditioned into these kids. They just, that's it's just, it's just why they're there. You know, and I think it's interesting to think about engraving, being an active thing that we do, it's not just not putting in grades, right? It's like training students to see things in a different way trying to move away from that, that naturalized thing, right? That is grading that just feels so so It's just a reason that we're there. And we need to, we definitely need to move away from that. It also, I think, was interesting hearing you say that you had to give a single grade at the end. And even with alternative types of grading, it's so it's so bizarre to think that you could boil it down to just a single number or letter. Right? Even if even if the individual grades we were giving were perfect and ideal and accurate, right? averaging them together or putting them together, just remove that variability, and every learner is different, and they have different skills in different areas. So that's a really good important critique, I think, to keep in mind of that sort of final term grade. Right, Christine? How about you? How would you answer this question? What is ungrading for you?

Christine Walker  10:41
Yeah, for me, ungrading means that my class is focusing so much less on the letter or the amount of points, it's, it's a mindset shift. And you really have to adopt that it's, I was telling my students, it's like, going on a diet, you have to make the decision to do it. And so it was a big mindset shift that we had to adopt in our learning environment, and helps my students and I to focus on their skill building, that leads to language fluency, specifically in my class. And this shift kind of led me away from grading and didn't really grades that didn't really explain to my students about exactly what they needed to do to grow, right. And so we are moving so much more towards actual feedback, the students get to use like, right away to build their skills. Like, if you do this, then you'll grow in this way. Right? So instead of my students coming in asking me like, What do I have to do to get an A what I have to do to get a beat, right? I was so tired of the hoop jumping? And I'm like, No, that's not really why we're here. You know, now my students and I are having conversations about like, you know, based on those actual standards that are laid out, that's actual is the organization that world language uses in the United States. And so if I show them, these are the learning targets that we have, these are the goals that we have to get to fluency. You know, the path is so clear to them now. And it's also something that they actually think that they can achieve, which is amazing, right? Because if a kid thinks that they can do it, then they will, right. And so it just takes the whole curiosity that they had in elementary school, and it brings it back, right, because like, Craig, and you said, it's when when they hit middle school, for some reason, we conditioned them to just, it's all about the grade. Right? And and that really killed the curiosity. When I saw that in my own two children. I was like, No, don't let go of that. Yeah, I just I'm trying to bring the curiosity back. Because when we feed that curiosity, it really doesn't matter what we do. We're going to be happy. We're going to be passionate, we're going to be really fruitful members of society.

Zach Diamond  13:01
I love it. I love it. And you were saying also, you have to put in grades as well, right?

Christine Walker  13:06
I do. Yes. I begged and begged. And they're like, no, no, you need to conform. And, you know, I said, Okay, so what do I need to do? And they were like, listen, we're going to trust you. And I'm very blessed to be working for McMinnville school district that trusts teachers to do to do what they know is best. And so they gave me the leeway to do what I needed in the classroom. And then upon the end of the semester, I need to issue some kind of mark, right, whether that be A through F, or pass or no pass, depending on what was agreed upon by the staff for that specific class. So yes, I do issue a final mark. But that is something that I am so excited to say that the kids and I came up with together based on like those discussions that we're constantly having on a daily basis. And then, you know, we have two big discussions during the semester so that way, they don't they're not completely surprised by what's coming. And they know where they're at. You know, so

Zach Diamond  14:11
works. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be asking you more about that in a little bit, because I definitely want to hear about that. But I think again, it feels to me like ungrading is really a mindset. Absolutely. It's not just not putting in grades because in fact, both of you are putting in grades because that's the reality of the world that we live in, despite the fact that it could change. It still is. And so it's the mindset, right? And I think teachers having the mindset is one thing. training students to have that mindset is a much bigger challenge.

Craig Meyers  14:41
Training the parents and I was just gonna say, Yes, training the parents is a whole other challenge. 

Zach Diamond  14:47
Oh, my goodness, yes.

Christine Walker  14:49
I love my parents, man. But it's, it's, you know, and I mean, like Craig and I, and you were all trained this way, right? So I mean, like before, we had to completely shift Are mindset and when you're coming up parents with no grades are bad. They're like, how are my kids going to get into a university? How are they going to walk across that stage? You know, when they're graduating, so I feel them, I feel them. Yeah,

Zach Diamond  15:13
yeah. But it's these kinds of things that the critical, or the critic in me, sees that. And just like, I just can't believe how much these things that happen in school are wrapped up in like, the society that we live in at all levels. I was having a discussion on this podcast with Paul France a few episodes ago. And we were talking about how property values can be determined by like standardized testing. It's, it's crazy how much this stuff is just wrapped up into our lives. And how little Criticism There is of it, or critique, there is of it out in the sort of broader world outside of schools. And I guess that we're preaching to the choir, because this is the podcast that teachers listen to. Right. And teachers are on mostly but but yeah, it's just it's, it's, it's a, it's a strange view of the world, that the teachers view. So I wanted to start getting into the book a little bit. And some of the things that the book talks about, and the a lot of the things in this, I guess this is related, actually, to what we were just talking about, because these things are so deeply entrenched, right? Just so woven into the fabric of reality, as the book says that a lot of the book is sort of dedicated. The book is a series of essays by different teachers who have used engraving in different types of ways, but a lot of them talk about justifying engraving, either to administrators, like you were saying Krisztian, or just in general, like why this is an alternative we should be looking at. And I think that's kind of unfortunate, because the system that we have is what it is. And we realize that it's not good, but we need to defend these alternatives. And people need to be convinced or persuaded. Right, which is, I guess, kind of sad, honestly. But that's where we're at. I'd like to talk a little bit about what is harmful about the traditional method of grading, and why on grading is something we need to be talking about, and maybe moving towards. So what would you both say, are some of the harms that are caused by the traditional methods of grading?

Christine Walker  17:19
Well, and I mean, you know, we were talking just a second ago about parents and trying to reteach them. And one of the things that I say is, you know, imagine if medicine had never changed, right, I mean, like, back then leeches, good. Now, leeches bad? Right. I mean, that's harmful. And I mean, we knew we know that now. Because we, we researched, we, we criticized like you were just saying, right. And so it's, it's really disheartening to me when educational institutions are using this zero to 100 grading scale. I mean, if we, if we just pause for a second and think about the math, right, most high schools around the country, start passing at 60%. Now, I know I'm just a German teacher, and I'm not that great at math. So Craig can back me up here. But I think that zero to 59 is a majority. And that is an F. And that's that, in my opinion, it can be extremely discouraging to a student who has who may have no control over their support system that surrounds them, they or their ability, maybe even come to school, you know, and to say that, you know, zero to 59, this is all failing, right? Like passing only starts at 60. I mean, I have students who are coming back from surgery, students whose parents live on the other side of the country that they need to go visit or mean, like in a country in a different country, for that matter, right. I have students who, you know, have disabilities who may need extra time. And I just believe that all these humans can do whatever they're passionate about. So I feel like grading that a skewed towards failure is completely inequitable, to all populations that we serve.

Zach Diamond  19:04
There are more failing grades than passing grades. 

Craig Meyers  19:06
Yeah. There are. 

Zach Diamond  19:07
Like I don't know, I don't know how often students are getting like 25% 30% on things. I don't know if grades tend to be more skewed. Like starting from the 60s. But like, That's nuts. Yes. Isn't that just bananas? Yeah, to think that there's more failing grades than passing grades. Right? That that occurred to me. And I was like, I, I was 20 years old when that occurred to me. Like that's unbelievable to me to think that and think that I just never even realized that. But yeah, sorry. Continue.

Christine Walker  19:35
No, no worries. Yeah, absolutely. No, but I mean, like, just like you said that word skewed. When the grades are skewed towards failure. I mean, that's it makes a kid feel like they've got no chance. Right. And I mean, in my opinion, if we're going to issue a grade, it needs to simply be a report of skill, right? It shouldn't be a reward. It shouldn't be a punishment. It's just a report of skill, right? So I've met students whose drive and passion to learn and thrive way outweighs their academic skills at that moment in time. However, the students have shown me time and again, that being perfect doesn't make you more employable, necessarily, right? I mean, having the drive to succeed in whatever field that they choose, is really what's going to make them be a productive person. So and, and I know that, you know, parents want that they just, sometimes parents need to be convinced as to you know, you want your kid to be happy, right? So, and that can look different for many kids. But I mean, like, not once, in any interview, did anybody ever care to ask me what I got on that one math test, because Oh, my God, I would never be hired. And you know, that what they do to me in an interview, the interviews that I've been in, they'd be like, Listen, give us your German. And we're sitting here with another German speaker, who can, you know, attest to the fact that what you're saying is actually not gibberish. They just wanted to see my skill, right? That's what they wanted to know, that I had in order to do my job. Well, so I yeah, those are the things that we need to move towards, in my opinion. So

Zach Diamond  21:21
and honestly, I feel like if you had said, Look, here are all of the German tests and, and essays that I wrote, the grades that I got on them, here are all the grades that I got, and they were all A's. They would be like, skeptical. Right? They would want to actually hear your German, right, like,

Christine Walker  21:36
what does an A actually mean? Right. And an A between different teachers could mean different things, you know? So yeah, amen to that. Yeah. I mean, like, a perfect person, excuse me, wait a minute, which believe it or not, I was not, you know, and I mean, like, but if you hear me speaking German, then you're like, Okay, we're good, we're good.

Craig Meyers  21:57
So it's interesting that the way I dress it with the parents, too, is kind of the same way I kind of talked to the students, it's like, when you leave, and I'm in a field that I feel like is heavily looked at. Right, like, there was a report that just came out that the United States is really low in math after the pandemic, right, like, math seems to be that like, point that every school seems to be judged on. And, and so I have found that the confidence in students is hit hard with grades. So when I, when I have a conversation with students, with, with my students, with the parents, not I mean, sixth grade is a little bit trickier, because they're just now getting into the whole grading system. And I just started on on Tuesday, and and I've had kids asked me about how to get A's in this class. And so I had to have conversations like, I don't do A's. So we'll we'll unpack that later. But I'm with the with the parents, it's really kind of interesting, because I have a conversation of like, first, the every time I say I'm a math teacher in middle school, the first words out of their mouth is Oh, my gosh, I hated math in middle school. Yet Oh, like that's, it was like, this is not that was not my skill. I am not a math person. I'm not very good at it. And it's like, okay, so what happened? And what happened is a kind of what you were talking about, like the percentages when you do percentages, right? Like, how do you feel when you get that F? Yeah, right. But there's no feedback, there's no, there's no conversation, it's a one or done deal. And it's something that I've noticed in my own teaching. And it's why I went to the engraving kind of path I'm not, I'm not as full as where you're at. Christina, I haven't had discussions about the end grade with students yet. I'm going to try that out this year, with my assessments a little bit more sixth grade, still very concrete learners. Got a stair step it out. But I mean, having conversations with students, though, of like, yes, but you're making growth, they can start to see that. And then that confidence starts happening, right, so they start to feel success. Whereas even when I was giving out regular grades, like to me, the engraving did one other thing in my teaching practice, which is actually forced me to talk to my students about their grades. And I think that is something that is missed in a lot of the educational pieces that that I've been doing is like, I didn't I mean, I gave their grade. And we don't do A to F here my building. We're very fortunate we have a different system. It's a little wonky still, but it is giving me an opportunity where I can have more conversations with students about their learning, not about the end result. And I think that's one of the things that I pitched to the parents and that seems to help them out. It seems to kind of give them a better mindset of like, oh, okay, I think I can I can work with that. It's very hard for them to figure out and follow. And it is one of those pieces though, that I think really helps out

Christine Walker  25:00
I wish Craig that I would have had somebody to tell me, you know, this is this is where you are doing actually well in math, Christine. And this is where you could just if you make a couple of tweaks here or there, I wonder what my feelings would be now towards math. And I'm fortunate enough to be around some people in my family who absolutely love math. And they've taken me aside be like, Alright, listen, you really don't suck at this. You know, it's just that your brain works this way. And so if you're going to think logically like this, like pie, oh, my gosh, Craig pie blew my mind. Somebody I was today years old, when I actually realized that the 3.14 means something. And if a teacher would have taken me to the site and said, All right, listen, you you language person here, you can do math to look at just this drawing, look at this special drawing of a circle and the 3.14. And what it really means if you don't know on this podcast, definitely go look it up. Because when I saw that, I was like, Oh, my gosh, you mean it comes from somewhere?

Zach Diamond  26:08
Definition of pie, I put it in the show notes.

Craig Meyers  26:13
Well, and and it and that's the other piece too, is that one of the things that I've been noticing with the ungrading part, when you're doing the feedback, you can then tie those connections in. Yes, right. So I can build that, you know, we talk about and you hear about, and you read in just like so many other materials, where they're like talking about how we need to be making sure that we're not we're giving the feedback and showing those connections so that students can make them. We know in the brain science, I've been reading a couple of other books about brain science, because I've been really fascinated by I'm reading a book called make it stick right now. Really fascinating book to read. It's not written by an educator, which is even more fun, by Peter Brown. And it talks about how we have to do this like, backward, like going forward, going back going forward, going back on, on how we learn things, kind of like in this spiral pattern. And I found with with ungrading, I actually am doing more of that. Because when I give feedback, I can be like, I can give the students this example of like, okay, this connects to here, how does that connect? You tell me the connection. And then that allows the students to start having more conversations about, oh, that's why we do it this way. Okay. And it gets away from a gets away the students away from just getting wanting the right answer, which, you know, allows for the students to actually learn more, retain more, and I act, I've been having less struggle and, and, you know, for those that don't mighty less tears in my classroom to because I've had a lot of tears, you know, middle school is hard. But it is it is something that that this ungrading, the piece has really kind of kind of had this like effect, and even when I first shifted my very first time into what I call proficiency grading, so I apologize if I use that, but that, to me, it's we use proficiency. And it it's just like a four point rubric kind of thing. That's how we do our end grades. It's we have four levels. And even when I give feedback, and I have to put a level on it, the the hurt I see in some students when they didn't make proficiency. It almost shuts them down to where they're like, I don't want to try anymore. I've tried twice, I can't do it. And so I've been trying to get away from that because I still hear the I can't and I don't get the I can't yet I get the I can't. And so I feel like the ungrading is starting to make that directional change that I really, really want. And, you know, middle school is one of those essential pieces that if we can get that mindset in them, even if they go in towards a more traditional, you know, percentage A through F system. They don't have that fear anymore, I feel like or at least less of a fear, because they had that foundational piece. And at least that's the direction I've been trying to go.

Zach Diamond  29:14
Hey there listeners. This is Zach with the announcements for this week. First of all, as you know, at modern classrooms, we deeply believe in student centered learning. We've seen it in classrooms all over the world. When you step down from the front of the classroom, and commit to self paced mastery based instruction, you are actually able to meet all students needs. But we also know this style of teaching isn't necessarily mainstream. So if you're looking for support and launching your modern classroom, join our free online course. Or sign up for our virtual mentorship program where expert educators can support and mentor you through creating your first fully self paced unit. Scholarships are available but you need to apply by October 6 to join our fall set. Should, you can visit modern classrooms.org. To apply and learn more. We also have another really exciting announcement that I'm personally super excited about, which is that this week we're celebrating the launch of a new podcast by the modern classrooms project. It's called catalyzing classroom change. educators, researchers and institutions are developing cutting edge instructional strategies that support both student learning, and teacher wellness. But we know that educational change can be slow when it's adopted at scale. At the modern classrooms project, we know firsthand how a single spark can catalyze classroom change. And you can listen and join the conversation with leaders in the education space to explore the newest frontiers of classroom led innovation wherever you get your podcasts, and you'll be able to find a link in this episode's show notes. And finally, we have two learning experiences this upcoming week. We have a research toolkit webinar on Tuesday, September 19, at 6:30pm, Eastern Time, in a q&a session on Wednesday, September 20, at 5pm. Eastern Time, and you'll find registration links in the show notes for this episode.  Yeah, you know, I want to talk about that for a minute. Because the the the idea of grades, demotivating students is obviously very sad, right? Like it's true, we see it happening. Students who just think I can't do this, because I keep getting F's, right, or I keep getting D's or C's, even the book, there were a couple of moments in the book where it kind of like very bluntly and kind of almost brutally says you need to hold up a mirror and look at your own class as well. And one of the things that I that I got from the book is that if you're using grades to motivate your students, it kind of implies that your content isn't actually that interesting, right? Or valuable to them. Yeah. Which is, it's, it's kind of brutal, right? But you have to hold up that mirror and say like, if they don't care, why should I try to be why should I be trying to coerce them into caring using grades? Shouldn't they actually care? You know? That's obviously that's challenging motivation is a whole other topic. And we don't need to get into that right now. But I just thought that was very interesting, right? Like, huh,

Craig Meyers  32:25
well, and that's, I mean, it does work, you're holding up that mirror to your class, it does work. Because over the past couple of years, like I've really made changes. Because of that, especially after the pandemic and seeing the, you know, we're already talking about all the social emotional learning that needs to be happening. And then when you add grades on to it, and yeah, my students are, you know, there's a lot more gaps I need to fill, because, I mean, it was there was a pandemic going on, and there was a lot going on. And, and so how do you constantly tell kids that you okay, you're, if you're constantly giving them a grade that's failing, and they have gaps, they know they have gaps? You know, they're not, they're going to figure that out. And all it does is just just keeps demotivating them.

Zach Diamond  33:09
Exactly. And I think it also alienates them, because it's like, look, you're failing, in this world of school, you're a failure. But it, it's a very myopic view of the world, right? It's like, they have so many strengths. It's a very deficit first view viewpoint of the student, right, it's like, we're putting aside all these other great things that you are and that you love, and that you do, and that you're good at even right and saying, You got an F on your math test, you know? Well, that was kind of all over the place, but like, it's obviously this fires up teachers, right? Yes, you know, I think that it's, well, it's a very common frustration of mine, that when alternative and new and maybe innovative approaches are critiqued when people like are scared of them, they don't apply those same critiques to the current system, which might not be working. Right. Right. And, and so these are all very good critiques of, of grading. Yeah. Another thing that I wanted to just quickly touch on that I got from this book that I really liked is that grades become the focus of school, like, the reason you go to school is to get good grades. And that removes the focus from learning. We've definitely touched on this a lot both of you have, but when students are like, asking, How can I get a good grade? How can I get an A? It's like, wouldn't you rather be asking how can I make something good? How can I do something creative and interesting, but no, you're just here to get an A and then leave. And so I think that that's another really important critique that I wanted to mention that the book definitely talks about. So let's try and get a little bit more hopeful and optimistic here. Let's try and move away from all that. You did. Both of you mentioned quite a bit of what you are actively doing as ungraded as but I'd like to get more specific like what are we moving toward and what approaches have you tried? You know, get specific with it. Those conversations, Christina that you have with the students about their It's what it How does that look? Do you do Self and Peer Assessment? Things like that? What do you actually try? And also what results? Have you seen? Like how? Describe to me, tell me some stories like what have you? How have your students reacted? What has worked? How How has this gone? And what is it that we're moving toward? If we're moving away from the traditional system of grading,

Craig Meyers  35:19
I feel like I'm still in the shallow waters of ungrading. To be honest, I feel like Christina is a little bit further out, maybe, you know, 510 feet further from me. So I definitely feel like I'm a little bit more in the shallow but I I, one of the things that I've started doing so I could last about 1012 years, I've been proficiency based or standard based grading, to where I've been doing more like just looking at the standards and grading them on that, and giving them feedback from there, to where now I went to my assessments where I was just checking off to see where they were at, by like, kind of kind of like with a mastery check that you would have with modern classroom, I had down at the bottom of my assessments, were just little checkmarks of like, Yep, you got what you needed. Here's the five learning targets that you needed to show. Yep, check that you got it. And I kind of moved on from there, to where now I'm down to a rubric, where I'm using a four point rubric at the bottom of my assessments, where it really has like these ICANN statements, the students can see where they're assessing. And one of the things that I'm going to try this year with sixth graders, which I'm really excited about and slightly nervous about as well, is I'm going to not tell them what their overall grade is on that assessment. Until after they get a chance to review all my feedback. And so what I'm going to do is I do a lot of reflection I've been doing that's the other part of the ungrading part that I've done is a ton of reflection for the mastery checks, before they take a mastery check the task right before the mastery check is actually a confidence level reflection on the on the lesson. So what I've done on this page is they have a space where they reflect on the vocabulary that I find important. And then down below, they kind of write down a reason why they feel confident in that lesson. So I write out the learning target. And they read that and they kind of write what they thought they got out of it. And then they bring that to me Oh, and they write at the very bottom, they write two different main ideas from that lesson. So they create kind of like this little study guide from that lesson, they bring that to me, I have a quick little conversation with them. So kind of, they're kind of doing a mastery check before they even get to the mastery check. And that's created a lot of conversation because sometimes I have students who just kind of bring me up the very bare minimum, and are really good at like doing the exact same thing. And both, you know, both examples. But you know, why not? Right? Like they still have some examples there. And it's, but it's giving them an opportunity to kind of like make it their own learning. And so, and then this is also made a really cool opportunity with the whole mindset of modern classroom, if I have a student and one of the lessons is very straightforward for them. And they don't need to go through all the tasks, and they want to kind of just get through those musters and then kind of jump in, sometimes they go straight to that, like, let me show you, I know how this works. And so we can use that and show me before they get to the mastery check. And then if they don't know two examples, or can't come up with two, then I say like, why don't you go back and try one of those tasks. And they can try that out, which is really kind of a powerful tool, but it gives me a chance to reflect with the kids before it. And then when they get to their standard, check out what I call a standard check. I don't call them tests anymore. I don't call them assessments, I'm checking the standard. So I call them a standard check. And they will reflect on that a lot. So what happens is, is right before it, instead of like a traditional study guide, or build a three by five card, I have the students again, I have a one pager where it lists all the learning targets for like, say five to seven lessons depending on how big the unit is. And then it has a column again for that confidence level. So maybe the very first time before the mastery check, they thought they were kind of low confidence. I have them check their confidence level right before the test in class and we have that little conversation. And then in the next column, again, they provide an example. And I actually have an overview video for the students if they so choose to use that they don't have to, but it's there for my students if they want it. So I create that instructional video. Then they take their assessment, following that assessment, they do more reflection. They are going to before so this year, what's new is the they don't get the overall grade. So that will be new for me this year and I'm really excited to do that. That was something I got out of the book. But the what has been done in the past is I actually have them write down one thing that they did really well on the test one thing that they wish they could do better and then they take this paper home to their guardians and within a week bring it back signed by their guardian. So I not only want the students to have the conversation with me and have a conversation with themselves, but then somebody some kind of trusted family buddy at home.

Zach Diamond  40:11
Yeah, I love all of that. I mean, I think that just just as a general matter, like, moving from one system to another, moving from grading to reflection, seems like the right thing to do. I think that that's an excellent sort of trajectory away from grading.

Craig Meyers  40:29
It's a I feel like it's like that first step. I feel like for me, it's that first step, that's why I feel like I'm still in that shallow waters. It's that first step.

Zach Diamond  40:39
Well, I don't know. I mean, I think like, that's a lot of reflection. First of all, I was gonna ask you earlier, like, how, how frequently are students doing this, but it sounds like they do it a lot. They do it frequently, constantly with you with themselves with their families. I like that a lot. Because I feel like no matter how well you design a test, right? It's still not as good as a dialogue with the student like to talk with them about what you understand what you don't understand, as a measure, right of what they actually know. And it's almost like moving away from even trying to measure anything, and just having a conversation to be like, where can you grow? Like, what, what do you need help with? What are you doing really well, it's not about measuring anything, it's just about growing. And so I liked that a lot, just as a very high level shift, right, a sort of a paradigm shift away from grades towards reflection.

Craig Meyers  41:35
And it gives me a chance to reflect to because so often, I've looked at assessments from students, and then they'll bring it back to me, and they'll be like, I don't understand why you think I'm not proficient here. I feel like I'm proficient. And I'll look over the test a second day, maybe it was like the 120 that I graded that day. And, you know, like, I got fatigue? I don't know. And then I look at it with fresh eyes a day or two later. And I'm like, No, you know what, I do agree with you. You are perfect, you are showing proficiency. So it gives me some like, even a little bit of a buffer room of like, nope, nope, I agree with you, I need to change.

Zach Diamond  42:13
Yeah, I've done that to where I grade something one day, and then I go back another day. And I'm like, actually, maybe I can make this a little higher. And it makes me realize how subjective grading really is. Yeah. How about you, Christine? What are we moving toward?

Christine Walker  42:24
Yeah, first of all, Craig, awesome, you are definitely not in the shallow end, you are, you are pretty, pretty darn close to exactly what I've been implementing in my class. And I have to give credit to all of the people who were were surrounding me in this conversation around that Hi. And I got a lot of, like support and collaboration from my peers who were seeing the same kind of things that you're talking about. And so, you know, 10 years at Mac high now, and oh my gosh, I feel like the instant I got there, I was like, We can do better. You know, like I tried the zero the four point grading scale. I fell in love with the rubrics. And I got that I I liked that kept some things that I wanted to continue got rid of it was asked to try the All work is equal grading scale, that that didn't work out. I've done like weighted categories, where people are like getting into the hardcore math. And I'm like, you know, we're in German, we shouldn't be doing calculus to figure out. You know, and so I feel like I've gone through all that. I mean, I have even gone so far. And I mean, I'm not proud of this. But it was seriously just trying to bring back the curiosity in my class. I looked at my kids when one year and I said, Listen, you're my honors class, are the top level German, can we just try to do this? Everybody gets an A right now, we never say the G word grades again. And all I'm asking you is to simply just give me the best you can every day. And you know, we're high schoolers. So that didn't work out perfectly. Like you know, and so after all of this tweaking over 10 years, about about a couple years ago, kind of during the pandemic, I finally honed in on bringing three main criteria into this non, or this an ungraded classroom. And that was I want to know, I want to see evidence of your German skill. I want to see evidence of employability skills. And I want to see evidence of student growth. Right. And by the way, employability skills is what my high schools buzzword is for 21st century skills. Soft Skills isn't really a good word. I think, you know, parents were like, What in the world the soft skill, right? And so, we've named them employability skills, because, you know, I mean, not ever I have to be honest with myself here. When you say hold your hold a mirror up to yourself. Oh my gosh, heck yeah. Like I'm a German teacher. I have to concede that when my kids crossed that stage. Makkai there, you know what they might not be using German for the rest. But I have to give them those skills that they need in the workforce. And so employability skills is the third part of my criteria, besides the skills of German and their growth. And so let's see what it looks like for me. In my class, it sounds a lot like Craig's, especially with MCP. So we do all of the learning. And then let's say we're getting to this mastery check part. Now the kids are thinking, I'm ready for this, they've got to bring me up a course companion that they've got there, they've got to bring me up their practice packet. And then when I take a look through those, we have a quick conversation about how they're feeling. And if they're feeling confident, and I'm feeling confident in their skills, well, based on what I'm seeing there, then they're given that mastery check to complete and then before, after they complete that, before they get any feedback, they're going to go back to their seats, and they're going to complete a self evaluation, after every single mastery check. And the questions that I ask them is, do you actually feel like you've achieved mastery of this skill in this lesson? And why or why not? And believe it or not, the kids have called me out in this part. They're like, you know, I actually feel like I didn't master it, or for some reason I did. And I'm like, ooh, warning, right? That means that I need to do a better job on my mastery check. Right? So they've really schooled me through these evaluations that they're doing of themselves, and really helped me become a better teacher. The second question that they are asked is, What Employability Skill did you use to help you complete this specific skill, right, or learn earn this skill here, and that can look different, depending on the skill. And I also, like want them to try different kinds of employability skills out, specifically, the ones that we focus on that I've picked, because there's so many of those 21st century skills, right? The five that we focus on in my class are effective communicator, obviously being, you know, it's a communications class, you they need to learn German. So, being that it's World Language class, we work on our global citizenship. We work on being a self directed learner, we work on being a lifelong learner, and overall, and this will make you so happy, Craig, they have to be problem solvers. Right? Because, like, dude, if I am if I'm smacked in the face with a crapload of German, how am I going to wade through the sea of stuff that I don't understand? How am I going to survive? And so they're really excited when I when I give them a piece of authentic text. And they're like, I actually know a lot more than I realized. And I'm like, yes. So we start with that, like, you can do this kind of attitude, right? And then see the other two questions, what did the journey to mastery of the skill look like? So that way, they have a chance to describe like how they got there. And I can be like, Oh, my gosh, I love how you did this thing right here. This part of your practice was great. And then the last part is, you know, them telling me hey, frown, I think you could grow in this way, and make the lesson better in this way. And it really, completely brings the G word out of our conversation. We're talking about how did you get that skill? And how can you do it again? How can you do the good stuff again, right. And then after that, they get their feedback, both positive, and stuff that they could do to bump their language up a notch. Bam, kick it up a notch, like Emeril Lagasse there, whatever you said. And then, and then they, they are excited about their growing, right. So then after, after about nine and a half weeks are like, you know, halfway through the semester, then I have the students fill out this, you know, how am I feeling so far about everything. And they have to give evidence about those five employability skills, they have to show evidence of their learning, as far as German is concerned, and they have to speak to a growth of a personal goal that they made at the beginning of the year. So like, for example, one kid was like, you know, I've got some family in Switzerland. Is it okay if I write them a letter and then show how I've grown in being able to write that letter over time? And I was like, That sounds amazing. Because when it's relevant to the kids, that's, that's, that's really what we want, right? Yeah. And so and then we do it again, all at the very end, and we do it individually. So the students go off and do their final reflection. That's their final exam. So to say in my class, they do their final reflection, and I do mine on my own. And just like Craig said, If we match, that's awesome. I have noticed that the kids even when they know we match, they still want to come back and they still want to have that awesome conversation? And I'm like, Dude, I'm just gonna sit here brag about you. And they're like, Yeah, let's hear it for a while. And I'm like, Great, let's go. These are all the things you did really well. And these are the things that I love for you to work on. And, you know, and if we don't match, then just like Craig said, they're bringing that evidence to me. And I have to be honest, you know, just like, Craig, there have been a couple of times, and I'm like, You know what, for a Walker's human, and so I totally get where you're coming from right now. And so I'm going to do you a solid, and I'm going to be like, sitting back here in my chair. And I just want you to spew the beautiful German at me, and just give them that chance to show me that skill. And it's, it stems from a young man who was in my German class really, mostly just because he needed a positive relationship in his life. And when he walked in the door as a freshman, apparently, the Frow show appealed to him. And so he decided to stick it out semester after semester, even though he was just barely holding on every semester, just barely holding on with that D. And he had a really special kind of intrinsic motivation to do the best he could in class in his own way, right. And so based on the grading that I was doing at the time, which revolved around the zero to 100% grading scale, he consistently was barely passing, he was getting just under a 60, just over 60, he was hovering around that, because he had decided in his own head, that I'm just going to sit here and sponge and lunging to me means that I'm not even going to distract myself by doing assignments, I am going to just sit here and sponge everything. And now like that worked for him, it's not going to work for all kids, right. But he had already gone that deep metacognition of how his brain worked. And he's like, I'm going to do this, no matter what any teacher tells me, right. And so there was no way for me to put his great participation, his growth over time, there was no way for me to put those intangible observations into our grading platform, right. And so this young man got to senior year started coming in, like, he was interrupting my other teaching periods, just so he could come by show off to the kids that he knew some great German. And also encourage them, hey, don't be like me, actually turn in your assignments. And you might get a good grade in this class was so sweet. But I mean, like, he became like, our, our mascot of the program, right? And it was amazing about how he was showing off like that to the kids. And I was like, wait a minute, Christine. Like, I think he's actually got the skills. And so when we came to the close of his senior year, and he had once again, not turned in anything, but he had amazing engagement. And he was really motivated to succeed. And he was also motivating others, which is huge, right? At about that same time, it was when I joined that grading think tank at MHS. And have been given the green light to try some different things, and collect some data and you know, inform my practices based on what was going on. And so I was in a very brain elasticity kind of moment. And I had this revelation while we were having this grading conference with this young man. And he, after four years to being a sponge, he, I said, you know, you just gave me absolutely amazing German just now I was like, you and I are having this great conversation in German buddy. And that's huge. Like, you're not perfect, but I mean, neither am I, I don't care that you're not perfect. Your pronunciation is there, a native speaker would totally be able to understand everything that you're saying. Not to mention the fact that you don't have your phone in your hand constantly looking up stuff in dictionaries. I mean, this is all off the top of your head. How did you get here? Because I said, buddy, I feel like this was not me. And he goes, No, no, I sat in class and I sponged and then I went home. And I just learned a bunch of German through German rap. And I was like, wow, respect. And I said, Well, I've got some news for you, okay. When you show me that you have this skill, a grade should be a report of skill and not an award or a punishment. So I am going to issue an A. And I the look in his eyes, completely changed my life as a teacher. Guys, I didn't know this, but he had never gotten an A ever. And when I said that, it was like his world completely changed. And I felt horrible, because I mean, like, that happened two weeks before he walked across the stage. And from the minute that I gave him that news, To the minute that we hugged and said goodbye. He started asking me like, Could I be a translator? Could I mean like, Could I go to the UN, I've started doing research about how I could use my German outside of school. I mean, like, what if I want to travel to Germany could I could have give tours of Germany in German. And I was like, buddy, based on everything that you show me the last four years, you can do anything that you're passionate about. And I was like, so you've got the green light for me to do whatever it is that you want German, because you're rocking it, kiddo. And so that's, that's when I decided that that kind of conversation at the end, and in the middle, that's what really needed to be the focus, just like Craig said, you know, when you're having those conversations, then that connects to content, and it spirals out of control in a really positive way.

Zach Diamond  55:51
That's amazing. I mean, that's amazing. And I think, obviously, you did play a major role in this, because in the first place, you taught it to him, but I can also easily met easily imagine another teacher saying this student isn't a complete failure. Right? The student is doing no work. The students gonna fail my class. I had, he has no hope. Right? Yeah. And another thing that I was thinking while you were talking is that it must have been frustrating to not have anything in your sort of grading tool belt to really measure this kid's understanding and knowledge. Right? Yeah. So you said, Okay, I had to just give you an A, like, we need to fit, we need because the school requires that we need to fit into the system at the end, right. But like, none of these grades reflect anything about you. What you're showing me this intrinsic drive and motivation to learn and the actual German, which I assume got to be very good, right? So it's like these constant ds, and the good German, they just don't balance out. And I think that that's why, as I was reading, as I was reading on grading, I was just nodding my head the whole time, that was like, yes, these grades, they're, they're arbitrary. They can change like, they're, it's so much deeper than that learning is so almost impossible to measure. And so instead of trying to measure, let's have dialogue about it, right, let's let's be the, you know, the employers who at the interview ask you to just speak in German, rather than looking at your transcript. Because, because really, this is a it's a process it's it's like a malleable and it changes and it's just so much more complicated than here's your A. And, of course, he was very happy because I guess even he had internalized that this is a mark of, of pride, right? Something to be happy about. But I do love the the idea of a student, like being so driven and also being so undriven by grades, right, so like, I guess the rise of the ungraded here beginning with with him, yes.

Craig Meyers  57:52
Made me think about too, I was I was kind of reflecting I spent about 10 years teaching summer school with high schoolers. That was an eye you know, you made me think I haven't even thought about it in a long time. And it was making me think about a lot of the students that those were all credit recovery kids. So these were these were students that are coming back and, and recovering, you know, there missed credits. And I was thinking about that was when I first started doing standard bass, because, you know, I had first I was told to teach an entire semester in three weeks to for three hours a day. For for those for that timeframe. And I looked at that, and I go that's not possible. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so I was thinking about it as you were talking, I was like, wow, that's that's kind of what I started having. I didn't even think about it until now. But your your story made me think about like all those conversations I had with the students and luckily the the principal at the time, both principals because I was there long enough that there was to the summer school, and I don't even think about it until just now about how the conversations I would have with them. I was a lot of kids I had one gifted math student never was passing any math class. I was the first class the RMA and as well. And it's because he came in he was he was a kid who was taking care of his family at home. He came in he slept in my class he took the test I actually had the principal come into my room looks overseas this kid sleeping I'm like it's okay. We got to deal and you know, and that principle supported me in that you know, he trusted me enough to know that I knew what I you know that I was going to have success. And yeah, I it makes me wonder like the downside of being a middle school teacher I don't get to see those high school kids move on. You know, and not very many come back to middle school and say hi. High school is going back and we don't get that. I would love to know how many of those are doing you know, those credit recovery kiddos are doing because I did I remember starting to have those conversations of like you Don't need to pass this, you can just show me that you can do these skills. And I actually was I changed my final. The final that I would give for the algebra one two class because this was freshman Algebra One, two. So in Portland, we call it one two for the rest of the world, it's algebra one. And we, the students would would I would come in and they would just, they would take their final. I'm like, you don't need to do every single question. This is where your skills are at. You've already demonstrated these skills. Show me these other skills. So maybe what you haven't done yet. And they were like, really? And I was like, yeah, just do the parts that I need to see. I didn't even think about it until you told your story. I was like, I think that's when it started. I think that's when I didn't even think like I said that your story just sparked a memory.

Christine Walker  1:00:51
I love that. Show me what you haven't shown me yet. Yeah, because I mean, but like, seriously, I don't even give a final exam. Because I tell the kids like you shown me throughout the year. What Why should I give some extra arbitrary test at the end, when all the other teachers are and you're stressed out already? I was like, trust me, that doesn't make your German better. Right? I mean, it's about what you showed me all year long, right. And I mean, like, the best test in the world was something I can't do. I can't take like the arcade claw, pick up your head and drop you in Germany and say, All right, I'll see you in a month. Right. Like, I wish I could. And I always tell my students, you know, hopefully, maybe one day, but we like yeah, I love that. Show me what you haven't shown me yet.

Zach Diamond  1:01:39
That's awesome. Yeah. Well, this has been an absolutely incredible conversation. I just feel, I don't know, I feel super fired up. Because reading the book, I felt fired up and getting to talk about the book now. And ungrading as sort of a concept. It's just I hope that our listeners are feeling the same energy from this that I am. Because this is this is obviously grading is a very emotional thing. A lot of emotions wrapped up in it for teachers, for kids, for everyone. And so, you know, this is a big, big, big topic. And I'm glad that we got to talk about it. Before we close out. Can the two of you tell me a little bit about what you hope to see in the future or any goals that you may have? You know, we're just starting off this school year. Sounds like both of you are pretty pretty experienced with ungrading. So maybe it could be something else something personal, any goals, whatever you want to say? What do you hope to see in the future?

Christine Walker  1:02:35
Yeah, I mean, pie in the sky dream is just to bring the curiosity back to education. I always tell my kids, I am a kindergarten teacher stuck in a high school teachers body, man. I want you to explore, create, have fun, mold, the German that kind of stuff. I want you to tell me what your why is, why are you here and let's connect it. But on a different note, I am so so motivated and super enthusiastic about the fact that at the end of this school year, I actually get to be that arcade claw. And take a bunch of gap errs, it says the German American partnership program, I get to take a bunch of exchange students over to Germany, we're going to go to our sister school. And they I just Yeah, it's like Christmas for me. Because when they see Germany and their eyes get big, like they've seen Santa Claus for the first time or whatever. That just that just completely puts the bow on my teaching. So, so stoked about that.

Zach Diamond  1:03:36
I love it. That's great. Craig, how about you?

Craig Meyers  1:03:38
Yeah, so I feel like I feel the same. I'm super motivated of like, just having my students reflect on their learning this year. I think the big goal that I have is to get them motivated into it. I truly believe that sixth grade math is such a foundational piece that I strive really hard every year. And it's my goal every year to just a joke with the students. But I tell them that every single student at some point is going to say they had fun in my class. Because, you know, middle school math is always a very interesting conversation with people. And so for me, the goal is that every kid has some kind of self reflection and fun in my class. And on this other side note, I'm going to be very curious on where you're going in Germany, because it's one of my favorite places. So

Christine Walker  1:04:29
sounds good. Sounds good. We'll connect. Connection.

Zach Diamond  1:04:34
Right? I love it. I love it. I love the Oregon contingent here also. So you already have a connection that wasn't expected. So well, Christine and Craig, How could our listeners connect with you if they wanted to chat with you more about engraving, which I personally do, we've already run pretty long. So I imagine that some listeners might also like to reach out and ask You maybe want to pick your brains a little bit, how can they connect with you?

Craig Meyers  1:05:03
I'm willing to share my email. Or that would probably be the best way to get in contact. I am probably one of the few people that doesn't have like Twitter's Facebook, even though I'm a tech guy. I've tried to avoid those as much as possible. So, you know, so but yeah, I can, I'd be happy to share my email, my work email or something like that to get out of the modern classroom email, because I check that often too. So either one of those, I guess I should say, Craig dot Meyers, M EY ers at modern classroom.org. The German spelling way.

Christine Walker  1:05:37
There you go. I like it. Yeah, Craig, I feel Yeah, I had to get on Instagram just to communicate with my sister. Yeah. I feel you. So but other than that, yeah. Christine dot Walker at modern classrooms.org. And I think I'm on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, definitely not a social media person, you send me an email, and I will get back to you. That's my to do list. So please, please send me an email.

Zach Diamond  1:06:05
And of course, those will both be in the show notes. So listeners can reach out to you both. And, yeah, what a fantastic conversation. What a fantastic book. Also, I really do want to encourage our listeners, if they haven't read Ungrading by Susan Blum, that's the first link in the show notes. Please go check it out. Because it's just really it's very eye opening book and also a very affirming book for a teacher who is, you know, a little bit disillusioned sometimes and a little bit. Well, a little bit critical. I say a little bit, but I'm more than a little bit critical. Very, very good book. Please go check it out. Well, Christina, and Craig, thank you so much for joining me tonight. This has been amazing. 

Christine Walker  1:06:21
It's been my pleasure. It's been Yeah, this is awesome. It really fills my bucket. So thank you for the opportunity.

Craig Meyers  1:06:52
All right, Echo. I really appreciate the opportunity. It's been, I feel like we could go for another hour. It's just been so much fun. 

Christine Walker  1:06:59
Seriously.

Zach Diamond  1:07:01
We could go for another two or three hours. Honestly, I have so much more to say. But listeners will spare you that. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org/157. And I really hope you appreciate those show notes because in them every single time I wrote ungrading, a cut autocorrected to upgrading, so I had to go back and change every single one. Please go and look at those lovingly crafted shownotes. Of course. This episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there or check back in the show notes for this episode, if you'd like to access those. And of course, thank you all for listening. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai