Episode 77: Self Pacing in Secondary Education


Voiceover: Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. Each week we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self-paced, and mastery-based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other, so this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast. 


Zach: Hello, and welcome to episode number 77 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Zach Diamond and I am a middle school music teacher in the DC area. And of course, I'm a Modern Classrooms implementer in my music class. And I have been for going on three years now. And I'm, of course, a Modern Classrooms mentor. Tonight for the podcast, we've got a really interesting topic. We are going to be talking about self pacing, but specifically in the context of secondary education. And I guess I should mention that for the purposes of this podcast, when I say secondary education, what I really mean is grade school that is not elementary school. I know a lot of countries have different ways of classifying the grade levels and the grade bands. Here in the US, we have middle and high school that I would consider to be secondary. I know other countries have just primary and secondary, but we're talking about teaching older kids and self pacing with older kids. So I am joined tonight by two fantastic guests. We've got a middle school teacher and a high school teacher. Up first, we have Amy Azaroff, she says, a recovering elementary teacher turned middle school teacher. Now she teaches middle school at Coquitlam School District outside of Vancouver. She is a distinguished Modern Classrooms Educator. And now as of December, she tells me, a Modern Classrooms mentor. So welcome, Amy, to the podcast. And welcome to being a mentor. 


Amy: Thank you. I'm excited. 


Zach: And up next, we're joined by Jesse Buck, a high school math teacher at Concord Community Schools in Michigan and also a Distinguished Modern Classrooms Educator. Welcome, Jesse, to the podcast. 


Jesse: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to get this thing going. It'll be fun. 


Zach: Yeah. This should be a really interesting topic. I think it's going to be a nuanced topic, a nuanced discussion. I think that most of our listeners probably know that Modern Classrooms model was really born in high school math classes. It was originally developed in the context of secondary school. And so it's going to be really interesting to approach it that way now, especially as it's sort of grown and expanded so much on this podcast and just in general in the world of MCP, we always say, and it's true, that Modern Classrooms is completely viable across all the grade levels, like from early childhood all the way up to adult education, but this is really sort of where it was born. And so I'm interested to kind of get into the weeds a little bit with the two of you. And hear some of the ways that as Modern Classrooms have expanded, how it's changed in the place where it was born. But before we do that, I want to give you both an opportunity to introduce yourselves. So go ahead and tell our listeners a little bit about yourselves. Tell us how you started teaching, how you found Modern Classrooms where you teach. Now you're teaching contexts, all that kind of stuff. Amy, why don't you go first? 


Amy: Sure. Thanks for having me. I was one of those kids who played school. I have a younger sister, and she was my first student. And I was always told that I should be a teacher. So of course, I didn't want to be. And after working with kids in all different kinds of contexts in high school and shortly after high school, I finally realized that those folks were right. And I really did want to be a teacher. And I just started teaching, without a degree or anything. And I eventually decided I wanted to go and teach in public school. I had been teaching private school, and I wanted to get a degree so that I could teach at public school. I've taught in Seattle, in Los Angeles, and most recently in the Vancouver area. I teach, like you said, in the Coquitlam School District, which is a suburb of Vancouver. After about 23 years or so in elementary, I've recently joined the middle school, and I'm teaching a grade six-seven combo class in middle school. Right now. I mostly teach science, math, some language arts, a little bit of health and PE thrown in on the side, and some art for fun. As far as the model goes, I think, like a lot of people, I found the model during the spring of 2020. I was sort of redeployed to help support teachers during the shutdown time. And I knew about blended learning, and I had done some self-paced teaching way in the past, and I was looking for blended learning. And I found the model that way. And I thought, “oh, wow, this is just like this other thing I used to do and contracts and menus,” and I was very excited. And I took the free course right away. And then I started using the model in math last September. So that was September of 2020, and I loved it instantly. So after implementing the model for a while last September, I won a scholarship to the Mentorship Program, and I was able to participate in that. I just loved working with my mentor and doing the full program and implementing it as I was going. And then, this past fall, I became a DMCE and became a mentor in December. 


Zach: Awesome. That's awesome. Jesse, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners? 


Jesse: All right. So I've been teaching for about nine years now. I originally went to college because I wanted to be an engineer because they make a lot of money. And I decided after going through a couple of engineering courses, I was like, “this isn’t for me, so what else am I going to do?” So I knew I was very passionate about coaching football and coaching. So going on to wanting to coach football, I decided the best way and the easiest way to go about that was to start going into the career of education. Once I started my student teaching, I just kind of fell in love with actually teaching itself, working with the kids. And after my student teaching experience, I just knew that that's where God wanted me to be, that was kind of my mission field. Now I'm fast-forward to like Modern Classroom. I've been teaching Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 in my district since I got there and I started the Modern Classroom project out of a necessity because of Covid and all the things that went along with it. My original instinct was to do a flipped-type classroom because I had heard about it, I knew about it. It's something that I wanted to try to do anyways. And then, let's see, would have been July. We had a couple of days of PD to try to figure out how we were going to do the school year starting with Covid. Our admin said, we want you to look at this Modern Classrooms Projects. We did the first one and I kinda like, saw the model and I was like, “no, I think this is what I need to do.” So two weeks before school started, I said, “I'm doing something totally different than I planned on and we're going to just dive in at it.” So like Amy said, I mean, I fell in love with Modern Classrooms Projects immediately. It was so much work upfront and making all those videos and figuring out how to best put them in Google Classroom because that's where we house our classes was kind of a challenge at first, but once I got started, I just fell in love with it. I was able to just work and give attention to the kids that needed it, wanted it. So I just loved it. It was a great fit for me. It's my style, like I do really well working one-on-one with kids and working in the environment directly related with kids. And one of the by-products of that self-paced is that even in a math classroom, I'm able to have some real conversations with kids that aren't necessarily math-related, but life-related and really kind of help to mentor them as they're either starting into high school because of the Algebra 1 or getting into Algebra 2 where they're kind of becoming the kings of the school. And then my final class that I teach is Senior Math, where the rubber starts to meet the road here and they’ve got to figure out life. So I really love that aspect of it, is actually having some real conversations with kids about life and how do they live a life after school is done? So that's my whole thing about Modern Classrooms. I just love it.

Zach: Totally. And also what you said about it being sort of a challenge up front, I hear that a lot too. And it is you're learning a very new way of teaching and learning some new skills like making videos and figuring out how to lay out your LMS and things like that. But the payoff happens in the classroom. 


Jesse: So true. 


Zach: Like you said, you're there with the kids and you can just work with them now. I 100% agree. That echoes my experience exactly. So let's get started here and let's talk about secondary Modern Classrooms. I guess I want to start off prefacing the entire discussion asking you both what you think makes secondary Modern Classrooms and also secondary education unique. Do you think that there are aspects of self-pacing in your secondary Modern Classrooms that are unique to those grade levels? Maybe tools or ideas that you've had for facilitating and leveraging self-pacing that require the higher-order skills that secondary students have, but the younger students may not have? What ways have you been able to take advantage of your students higher executive functioning, higher analytical thought that may not work in younger classes? 


Jesse: So the way that I do it in my class is my students, they immediately come into the room. While I'm taking attendance, I always reference back to that pacing tracker. My pacing tracker is really simple. Basically it's every kid's name or logo or character that they want to be called is up on the board and then next to that is the thing they should be working on. So let's say they're working on 3.1 linear functions. If that is on target, that is in the blue. Sorry, it's in the green. If that is a little behind it's red, and then if it's ahead, they're actually in a blue, so they need to come in. I always reference it because I still have 9th graders, who are glorified middle schoolers, so they still need a little bit of prodding and pushing, but they come in, they look up there, they know exactly what they need to do. And when I first started with the whole Modern Classrooms thing, I was just implementing the videos, I was just giving out the assignments, letting them work at their own pace. But I didn't really have that progress tracker. But the more that the year went on, I said I feel like this is something I need. As soon as I put it up, it became more of almost like a contest, like, “hey, Mr. Buck, Mr. Buck, Mr. Buck, I finished that assignment. Can you put me back in the green?” or “I should be on the blue.” That was just something that gave the kids pride and I think that's part of them having those higher-level executive functioning skills is that they can actually have that pride and say, you know what? “I am on target” or “I'm ahead” or “Come on,” to their buddy. “Hey, catch up to me, dude”. So that's one thing that I think for having that self pacing and the pacing tracker has just been a great success for my classes. Yeah. But you know, it's funny. 


Zach: I agree. I think that my older students, even though I only teach middle school, my older students do have a sort of a more mature reaction to being behind and being ahead in the way that they interact with their peers, whereas my youngest students are like, it's just a contest. I just want to win. Amy, what about you? What do you think makes secondary Modern Classrooms unique from other levels of Modern Classrooms? 


Amy: Well, I think what's interesting in my age group that I'm dealing with is I have a huge range of maturity levels, and those executive functioning skills are on a huge spectrum. So I have some students who really function like they’re secondary high school grade eight, grade nine students, and they can manage all their materials and they are on top of their lessons. And lots of them like to serve as lesson helpers when they're ahead of pace. And then I have students, like Jesse said, that his 9th graders are glorified 8th graders - a lot of my 6th graders are just kind of deer-in-the-headlights fifth graders or grade five, as we call them in Canada. And it's a big range. And that's one of the things I like about the model is that it really can honor those ranges. And the amount of intervention or the amount of scaffolding that I need to put in can be different depending on who the students are. But as far as some of the things that I do see, especially emerging after using the model more, is those time management skills and realizing, okay, I need to stop talking to my friend because I need to complete this lesson to be on pace or I really want to do that aspire-to-do activity with my friends. So I got to get this done. And I'm starting to see that emerging more in some of the students. Also, I think because of my particular teaching situation and a lot of high school situations, students have different teachers for different subjects, and they kind of have to learn how to switch back and forth between different styles of teaching and different expectations and different levels of demand from different teachers. And I think at this age group, they're developing that and developing those skills and learning sort of how to manage their own learning in light of the expectations that are shifting around them. 


Zach: Yeah, absolutely. What you said at first really resonated with me, the idea of just the wide range that we see in our students’ executive functioning, of analytical thought. I've always said as a middle school teacher who teaches the three grades, six, seven, eight. It's the three years in which the kids seem to change the most. 


Amy: Absolutely. 


Zach: In all of school. That's my experience. And I've never taught any other level, but it's just such a drastic change. And yeah, I've always also thought about this idea of like sort of a 6th grade learning curve you're coming from elementary school into basically the model you have until college, right? You go from class to class, teacher to teacher, and that's a big shift for a lot of kids. And then by the time they're in 8th grade, that's the water that they're swimming, and they know how that works now. And they become a little bit more focused on the content. Yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess describe for me a day then in both of your Modern Classrooms, what is the day? And Jesse, you sort of started getting into this with the green and the blue and stuff, but just describe sort of a day of self-pacing in your class. How does that look? 


Jesse: All right. So like I said, they come into the classroom, they kind of get settled in. They may be doing a little chatting with their buddies or whatever. Then they reference the progress tracker, and they know what they need to be working on. Now, if they're behind or they're working on a previous assignment, they know that they need to go right to that assignment and get started working on that so they could get caught up. If they're not working on or they're not working on a late assignment or assignment that's behind, they know to go ahead and reference the well, they still reference the progress tracker, but then they go to the Google classroom set-up where they can find the next day's thing or the thing they should be working on that day. And that's going to be where their videos are held. Now they know to go into those videos and start watching and following along with my guided notes. They get a whole packet-full of guided notes for an entire chapter, and they know to go find where they're supposed to be at, follow along with the videos while they're taking notes. Once those notes and videos are completed, they actually go online and they do their practice problems via Big Ideas - it's a math program where the kids books are on there. All the assignments that they get are on there. They reference back to that to get their assignment. They start working on their assignment. And if they finish those practice assignments, then they can work on the mastery check, which they can get at any time. Now my mastery checks are more end of the unit, more end of the chapter kind of mastery checks, almost like a traditional test. But I have three versions. So the first version is actually just a regular math test. It's just a test that they would take to prove that they're mastering things and that they can move on. The second one is actually taking the “I can” statements or the specific learning targets, matching those back to problem sets that they have, doing those math problems as well as their justification - so if they use an inverse property rule during solving a math problem, they would actually need to remember to write that rule or what they've actually done mathematically inwards next to that step. And then my last one, we call it the actual “the Masters-level mastery check,” and they're actually referencing all of their learning targets, the “I can” statements or the learning targets, whichever they prefer to use, and then they're creating their own test where they're matching problems that go along with these “I can” statements. And then they go ahead and actually do the math and justify it themselves so they get to make their own tests. And this is for my really high-flying kids, and they actually love doing them. They have so much pride in them. It's pretty amazing to see the level of ability they have, but also just how much pride they feel in doing those. 


Zach: Yeah, that's really cool. Who decides which level they take? Do you decide or do they decide? 


Jesse: They actually get to choose which level they take until about halfway through the semester. And then I'm like, okay, you've taken enough of these apprentice ones. I want you to challenge yourself to take the journeyman one, I want you to go ahead and try to do these. 


Zach: Yeah. So that's really interesting. I was thinking it from the other perspective, almost like you could use the progress data, the self-pacing data to be like you want to take the master's level, but you haven't gotten to lessons four, five, and six yet, so you're going to fail. You don't want to do that. You haven't been exposed to that yet. So that's really interesting. So, Amy, can you describe a day in your Modern Classroom? 


Amy: Sure. First, I love that idea of the different tiers of the mastery checks and how you have your students choose and then write their own questions. That's very cool. So a day in the life in my classroom, because my classroom is sort of set up more like an elementary room. We have our students pretty much for the whole day. I have the luxury of taking up as much time as I want to. We do have blocks. We don't have bells between them. So if I want to do a double block of science because everybody's just in the groove, I can do that. So I usually start first thing in the morning with science. We come in and I give out a social emotional check-in. My students were divided between paper versus digital. So on one of my days, we do paper, and the other day we do digital. And I ask a variety of different questions, checking in to see how they're feeling and what's up, and if they think their mood is going to affect their day and anything that they want me to know. There's a little bit of goal setting on there, and it's just three or four questions, and they're different every day just to kind of check the pulse. And then they do a soft start and they get about ten minutes to read, talk to friends, play a board game. Chess is very popular right now. We have a lot of kids who just come in late, and I sort of did it to give them a little bit of extra time to get in and kind of get settled in because I was always having to sort of go back. So this is sort of a nicer, more humane, gentle way of starting the day. And during that soft start time, I read the SEL social emotional check-ins so I can see who needs me to check in with them, who's having a rough morning, who thinks they need a little support with anything in particular. That gives me a little time to do that and take attendance and all of that. After that, right now, we're taking a sketch-noting class as part of our note-taking learning. And so we'll start our day with ten or 15 minutes of sketch-noting and practicing, taking notes. 


Zach: That is so cool. 


Amy: It's so fun. They love it. I love it. I was taking it for myself, and then I roped them into it. It's fantastic. And Jen Giffen, also Canadian, teaches an awesome online sketch-noting class. And so as part of my nonfiction note-taking, that's the one of the things that we're doing. So we started our morning with that. And I'm trying to integrate that with some of the research that we're doing in science. So once we finish that, then we do a quick, we might do a little game or a quick review or some sort of vocabulary warm-up or energizer just to get everybody ready to go. And then we jump straight into the self-pacing. I've been using Classroom Q. I don't know if you know about classroom Q. 


Zach: I don't, but I'll definitely look it up and put it in the show notes. 


Amy: It's great. There's basically a doorbell, and they ring the doorbell. And then on my screen I can see who needs help. Classroom Q. But the letter Q. Yes. 


Jesse: Wow. I really like that idea. That's kind of a great way to do it. That's really useful. 


Amy: It's great because I try not to get stuck at my desk, but when the students keep coming up asking for mastery checks, I kind of get stuck at my desk. And so it's been a great way for me to sort of help them and say, put your name on the classroom queue, ring the doorbell, put your name in, and I'll get to you as soon as I can. And here are three things you can do while you're waiting for me. 


Zach: Yes, I looked it up and it looks very, very cool. And I'm thinking about my 6th graders who, I was saying this before, they're adjusting to having lots of different teachers and they're sort of used to having a lot more access to one adult in a smaller setting. And it's like they sort of they're needier, you know, and this looks awesome for handling some of that. 


Amy: It's great. I think you get five students at a time on the free version. So an easy way to limit things. And then you have to sort of set up expectations around the silly names they choose for themselves. And if you're going to allow that, you get to know their silly names or if you only require them to use their actual name so you know who it is. So I use the Classroom Q to help manage that flow of students asking for help. And then I just try to be on the move and check in, go around, based on the Classroom Q who's needing help in order and making myself available. And then the students have to come to me and show me their notes and their practice to get the mastery check, to get the proficiency check. It varies how long we do the self-pacing. Sometimes 20 minutes is all we need and is all we can kind of manage before we need to do something else. And then some days they're really in a groove and they just want to keep going and we can do that. And so usually we go up until our morning break and at the end we'll do a closing activity as a whole class. Right now we are doing a little experiment and we're using the data, actually, for math. Do you know Blicket? 


Zach: No, I don't, but I'll add that as well to the show notes. 


Amy: So Blicket is sort of like Kahoot, but more gamified. 


Zach: Oh, actually, I have seen this. I have seen this. 


Amy: Yeah. So the quiz function is similar and then it has these gamified aspects to it. So certain games you can hack each other, you can steal each other's money and steal each other's fish and that kind of thing. And they just love it. They just think it's the greatest thing. So right now we're closing our science class after our self-pacing time with the same Blicket on our science content and we're doing it every day to see how we improve our scores. And then we're using those scores in our math data kind of study and graphing to sort of see if we improve and see how the data changes. 


Zach: That's really cool. That's really cool. 


Jesse: One really thing that has been great about Modern Classrooms too is it does give you that freedom to spend a little more time somewhere, speed them up somewhere, stop the whole thing and say we need to hit this again. That's the one really awesome thing that you were just mentioning there that's been amazing about Modern Classrooms Projects as well. 


Amy: Yes. And it's something that I was a little skeptical about at the beginning because of so much preparation in getting all the videos. I've always been a backwards planner, so that wasn't super new for me. But having all the videos and all the lesson practice and having everything done ahead of time, my elementary brain was thinking, “yeah, but what if they need this? And what if you need to change it or repeat it or do something different and be flexible?” And it just seemed so kind of written in stone. But you're right, Jesse. It really isn't. It gives you flexibility to pull back here and push there and kind of go with the flow of what the kids need. And different kids have a different flow. And it allows for that, too, which is one of the great things about it. 


Zach: It does. And I mean, that's the goal, right? That's the goal of self-pacing, right? 


Amy & Jesse: Exactly right. 


Zach: Of course, there are other goals, too. There are definitely other goals, like helping kids develop those skills. But especially when kids are getting older. My 8th grade students, Jesse, I'm sure with your students you can do that without so much like trying to herd cats. 


Jesse: So true. That is so true. Before like any time I feel like you change something, the kids would freak out. But now because of the way things are going, it's just like, “no, this is what we're going to do.” “Okay. Sweet.” 


Zach: Yeah, definitely. All right. So listeners, we are going to take a quick break, and we will be right back with Amy and Jesse for some more questions. 


Kareem: Hi, everyone. It's Kareem here from the Modern Classrooms Project. I just wanted to share some exciting news about our big Virtual Summer Institute this summer, the summer of 2022. Now, as many of you all know, the summer is one of the most popular times for folks to learn our model. It's a time where folks can take a step back from their normal classroom experience and really rethink and redesign their approach to teaching and learning. And this summer, we plan to train 3000 educators this summer. Now, educators come through a variety of ways. You can enroll individually, you can enroll through a school and district partnership. And this year we have some pretty awesome regional scholarship opportunities. These are scholarship opportunities for educators. If you're located in DC, New York City, Connecticut, Chicago, Seattle, the Twin Cities, or Tulsa. These are folks who can just apply, if you're an educator in these communities. And if you get accepted, you get a full scholarship to our Summer Institute and some really great perks, including a $500 stipend. So check them out. You can just go to modernclassrooms.org/scholarships to see the regional scholarships. And you can just go to our website and you'll see at the top announcement bar. You can learn more about our virtual Summer Institute, see the variety of ways you can roll individually or collaborate with us on a school or district partnership. I hope everyone is doing all right. Good luck with the rest of the year. Thank you for all that you do. 


Zach: All right, folks, we are back with Amy and Jesse to talk a little bit more about self-pacing in secondary classrooms. The first question I want to ask now is, I think going to be more for Jesse because Amy, you said that you basically teach the same students for the entire day, and I want to talk about teaching multiple sections of the same class to different students. And Jesse, I'm curious to hear your take on this. Being a high school teacher, your students have been sort of going from teacher to teacher for quite a while now, and I'm sure they're quite seasoned at it. I'm curious to hear how you manage multiple sections. Like, do you have different types of pacing trackers, different pacing trackers? Do you use self-pacing to build relationships when you have the kids for less time? How do you manage multiple sections of the same class with different students? 


Jesse: Okay, so for me, I use the same type of pacing tracker, but I clearly have one for each section of learning. I'm actually in a really unique situation right now because we have like a hybrid, normal amount of time classes and then we have also block-style classes. So that's been kind of a challenge to kind of figure out how to manage. But I found a way to do it pretty well, especially with my hour classes versus my block classes. With the block classes, they just get everything at once. So if the specific class is on graphing quadratic equations, they're going to take the notes, they're going to watch the video, and they're going to do the practices all in that day. Where my second, or my class that's just the hour-long class. They are going to take notes and do the videos one day and then the next day they go to work on the practices. So using the progress tracker has been actually very beneficial because not only does it help them stay on task, it helps me know what they're actually asking me some days because in math I could be doing something totally different on a similar math problem or a similar-looking math problem from one section to another. So it's been a really cool thing to really use those things to help my kids stay on track, help myself stay on track, and the same thing like you said, teaching the same subject in different sections, what it allows me to do is really not worry so much about where I'm at so much because I can do anything that they're going to ask me to do. But I'm also going to be able to guide them through what they need to be doing. This really has helped me develop some relationships with kids that I wouldn't normally maybe get to those because like I've been talking about, I coach football and I coach sports, so I have a different relationship with those kids. Those kids are going to come to me when they need me no matter what. Where some of those other kids I don't always get to see. So I'm allowed to work with them and I'm able to work with them more one-on-one and kind of get what things they're passionate about. And it's kind of been an eye-opening experience for me because I've been able to see how I can relate to some of these kids more closely than I have in the past. So it's been a really kind of a cool experience to be able to develop those relationships with kids that I wouldn't normally do. And like you said, the shorter periods of time, but with them self-pacing, it does allow us to get into some more conversations about their likes or my likes or, I try not to, but we've talked about politics and we've talked about relationships. It’s been kind of a weird mix of how some of these things have organically come up. But it's really helped me develop those relationships with kids that I have for two hours versus kids that I might only have for an hour. 


Zach: Yes, absolutely. And that's my experience as well. I see them for 50 minutes. We have a sort of a weird Friday schedule where I see them for an hour and ten minutes. But yeah, it's a short time. And so the fact that they're self-pacing and the fact that I'm not lecturing really means that I have just a lot more sort of I say “free time.” I say that in air quotes because it's not actually free. I'm doing stuff, but I can move around the room and talk with them. And you said something else that definitely got me interested, which is that you might be doing different math problems with different kids just because it's different. I definitely have the experience of teaching the exact same class to two different kids and having very different results. 


Jesse: Oh, that's so true. I look at the pacing trackers for the two classes, and in one case, all the kids are on pace or ahead, and then the other class, almost everyone is behind. And I'm like, what's the difference? I'm the same teacher. The videos are the same. They're literally recordings. They don't change. The difference is the kids. But that means that looking at the data, I can respond to that. I can go into that class that struggles a little bit more to keep pace and work with the students who I know need it the most, and I can maybe build in more structure in that section that needs it. And I think that self-pacing has definitely given me the answer to that because I always kind of felt like there's an emotional valence to every different class. Like you walk into one section and you walk into another section and it just feels different. But the pacing data sort of shows that, it really bears it out. And you can see this is the class that needs my support. And this is a class that I can sort of just float around and check in with kids and hang out with them a little bit more. 


Jesse: Yeah. No, that's so true. We know our kids, for the most part, even when we were teaching at the board and lecturing, we kind of figured out kids who are going to get in, kids who are not. But the thing about that pacing guide is, there's those kids that you think might be getting in or you think might be able to do it. But I think a lot of that is because their home life might be different and they're getting a lot more resources at home than some of the other kids maybe do. But now it's like, I can be that resource. I can check in with them now where before they just seemed like they were getting through everything, where now I can see more of that. We always think we know a kid, but it's not always true. In that case, sometimes those kids are wishing that they would get more of that attention. And this really helps me to give that attention. 


Zach: Yes, you have the data. I've said this a lot, but I just feel like looking at a pacing tracker tells you so much about a kid and about a class about a section. 


Jesse: Right. 


Zach: And yeah, it's just so great having that data. Cool. I want to ask you both a slightly different question, which is about how you balance teaching content versus teaching self-pacing explicitly. I think that, my sense, and certainly teaching from 6th to 7th to 8th grade, my sense is that younger students need more structure, and the older they get, the more you can sort of remove those scaffolds and teach self-pacing less. Older students have generally developed, or at least they are developing the executive functioning skills that they need to succeed in a self-paced environment with less support. And I guess, Amy, you and I are kind of in the same boat. We have more or less the same age as kids. And I'm curious to hear from a high school teacher what this is like because I've never really taught high school, but yeah. So how do you balance teaching content versus actually teaching self-pacing, and how do you remove those supports as the year goes on maybe as high school goes on or as middle school goes on? 


Amy: Well, it's interesting because last year I did a fully self-paced math unit right away and I had a public pacing tracker and I just couldn't manage it. It was completely overwhelming. The students just, they weren't ready for it. None of us were ready for it, and it was just overwhelming. We just couldn't maintain it in a meaningful way. And so I stopped using the public pacing tracker at that point. All of my students have their own private pacing tracker in OneNote, and it's kind of like a hyperdoc. It's a linked table of contents. So every lesson in the table of contents is linked to another page in the OneNote. And all of the video materials, practice notes, and everything is in there. Things are also available on paper. And so one of the things that I did this year was do a very robust Unit Zero to introduce them to that, to how all of that is laid out and where to find everything. And I try to be consistent with that every unit. So the notes are always in the same place, the papers are always in the same place. There's always an option of doing the notes digitally or on paper, and I might switch up the order of things - the video might not always be first, but the elements are always found in the same place. Because I feel like the cognitive load is less when everything has that predictable pattern and they can start to really learn and understand that pattern. 


Zach: Yes, I absolutely agree. 


Amy: And then really focus on the academics of that. And this year I'm actually using the model in science and that we're only self-pacing within one lesson at a time, which doesn't sound like self-pacing. But Monte, the brilliant Monte, talked about self-pacing within one lesson at a time. And I thought, “well, that's not self-pacing. That's just everybody doing one lesson at a time.” But I don't know if she explained it on a podcast or if it was on the Facebook group. I'm not sure where I heard her explain this, but that has worked much better for my class this year. And giving them that scaffolding of “we're all on pace in the same lesson at a time.” And then some kids only get to the must dos, and many get to the should dos, I call them tries, and some maybe a few get to the challenge or the aspire-to-dos. And now that we're about halfway through the year, I have five or six students who are now able to go to the next lesson. And the rest of the class, I'm keeping them within one lesson at a time. So that's kind of how I try to support them in learning that self-pacing is that consistency and that predictability and that scaffolding and support and sort of moving along together. And when it seems like they're ready to take on a little bit more freedom and a little bit more independence, then they can kind of go into the next lesson. 


Zach: That's very cool. It's not exactly teaching them explicitly, but it's like putting up guardrails by shortening the scope of a self-pacing block. Right?


Amy: Exactly. And the Unit Zero was quite explicit in teaching them, this is what you're responsible for, and this is how this class is going to work, and this is what's expected of you. And they had to teach that to someone at home. That was their Mastery Check - was they had to teach about the model to someone at home. I'm sure I got that idea from someone on the podcast. And then the person at home, the adult at home, had to write a little “two things that they learned about what a Modern Classroom is.” And then they filled out a certificate saying that their student taught them what a Modern Classroom was. 


Zach: That's such a good idea? 


Amy: It wasn't my idea. I don't know whose idea it was. Sorry to the person I'm not giving credit to, but it worked great. And the parents were super on board. They thought it was really cool. And I also go back to it when somebody is struggling or when somebody's forgetting, where do I get the notes or that kind of thing. Let's take a look at Unit Zero again, the picture is there, the information is there, and we can use that kind of as an anchor. 


Zach: Yeah, that's great. I'm really glad that you brought up the Unit Zero. I hadn't even thought of that. But that is a very common way that Modern Classrooms teachers teach the model to their students. Right. Like, how are you going to do this class? 


Amy: Yes, I didn't do that last year. I was just so excited. I just jumped right in. And this year I kind of thought much more deliberately of how I wanted everything to go and I wanted to build in some of those getting-to-know-you activities kind of in the Unit Zero and those expectations. And especially because it's so different from the teacher that they have on the other days. I wanted to be very clear and explicit about what it was going to be like. 


Zach: Yeah. Actually, I do a Lesson Zero, which is in my Unit 1. I guess it's just semantic, really, but I try and keep that as small as possible. But I have also found that I'm frequently referring my 6th graders back to that lesson. Whereas my 8th graders, they kind of just come in and sit down and do their thing. 


Amy: Yes. I think my Unit Zero was four lessons. It was short. 


Zach: Yeah. I mean, it's not that complicated at a certain point. It's just like, do lesson one and now do the mastery check and now do lesson two. Exactly. Move on. Right. Yeah. It's a pretty simple model, which is great. Jesse, how about you? How do you balance teaching content versus explicitly teaching self-pacing? 


Jesse: Yeah. So I kind of do a Unit Zero. It's not specifically called that. Basically. I just call it the Getting-to-know-you unit and you understanding Modern Classroom unit. So in that unit, I make them watch the video on Modern Classroom and I make them read an article from MCP on their website. And then I make them write an essay about what they learned and why would Modern Classroom fit in what we're trying to do at Concord, and what are the things that they can benefit from those. And then we kind of have a discussion about it. And then there's obviously some of those getting-to-know-you things where I'm like really setting up that, okay, this and this and that kind of a mentality in how they're doing things. So I do teach it, but not directly teach it to the kids because, at the high school level, I feel like they're starting to get to that point. I have noticed I had to hit it a little bit harder when it did come to my freshmen. They're still in that we haven't been doing Modern Classrooms for super long at Concord. A lot of our middle school teachers are doing it. Some of our elementary teachers are doing it. Not all the high school teachers are doing it, either. So it's like Amy said, they're going back and forth to this thing all the time. Like the teacher's doing this thing every day with them. They're lecturing and they're giving an assignment, and then they're going back to another teacher who's like, “okay, this is what you're supposed to be on. Get at it. You know how to run through this.” So I kind of had to preface it with that Unit Zero, which again, I don't really call it that, but it is a Unit Zero where they're like learning about Modern Classrooms, why we do self-pacing, what does it mean to be self-paced. And it's just kind of a kick-off to start it. And I don't necessarily refer back to it as I should, but I am referring them to, “okay, what should we be on? Why are you not on this? What is the next thing you need to be doing?” 


Zach: Yeah, only for my youngest students do I ever refer them back to that video. And I certainly think that it would be a high school thing to have them read an article and then write an essay, right? I'm trying to imagine that with my 6th grade and it would not fly, but it is a very cool idea. Like, I feel like that is what I was trying to get out before with the idea of like, you have older kids developmentally, they're able to handle that and think about it and reflect on it. But really it feels more like the Unit Zero, or in my case, the lesson zero is like an induction into a Modern Classroom. But you develop the skills of self-pacing and learning in a Modern Classroom just by doing it. 


Amy & Jesse: Yes, that's so true. 


Zach: It's not that we taught them that. And you do lesson zero. And they're like, oh, yeah, I remember learning that back in September. It's like, no, I walk into this classroom and what I do is I grab my notes and I sit down and I open up the Edpuzzle. I'm liking this idea of just setting it up for them, laying the path for them, for them to walk along, because then really what we're teaching them is mostly content, even at the younger levels. If you just give them one thing to do, it can be the content, as long as they're not, like trying to figure out what's next. “Do I do this? Do I do that? Do I go here? Do I go there? Do I do the notes? Do I do the video? Do I do this, do I do that?” The less that you're answering questions like that because you've streamlined your class, the more content you can prioritize. 


Jesse: That's so true. 


Amy: Yes. And I think keeping the structure fairly consistent. 


Zach: Yes. 


Amy: And how the things are laid, how the lessons are laid out, how the different elements are laid out and explained and using similar words to explain them every time. 


Jesse: Yeah. I think that's so true because I think that it doesn't matter K through twelve, those kids thrive better on structure. I think we know that. Yeah. Especially like our IEP kids and our 504 kids, those kids specifically, they thrive on that structure of “this, then that” kind of a thing that I know how to progress through what I'm doing. And let's be honest, as adults, I do a lot better when I have structure than when I have no plan or know that I'm going to like “this, then that is what I'm going to do first and then I'm going to do this.” 


Zach: Yes. And then they can focus more of their brain power on the learning itself. So true. 


Amy: And on the content itself. 


Zach: Absolutely. Yeah. Amy, before you mentioned the idea of a cognitive load, it's like taking all of the cognitive load out of finding the work and putting that cognitive load into doing the work and actually learning. Exactly. I love that. I really love that. Wow. Well, I'm glad I asked that because that was a really fascinating response. I guess before we close out, which we have to do pretty soon because we're running long, could you both share some tips and tricks? Maybe just one or two for our listeners? I like to ask this question specifically for listeners who may be hesitant to try out the model. I do think that this is the age group where teachers might be the least hesitant just because the most common misconception of Modern Classrooms is that young kids can't self-pace. But we, of course, know that they can. But in high school, you look at a high schooler and you say, yes, this person can probably figure it out. What would you say to a teacher who is either hesitant to try out the model or just getting their toes wet for the first time? 


Amy: I think that the best advice that I was given was, aside from “don't freak out about your video,” because I do still freak out about my videos - is start small, start with just one class or class period, depending on how your situation is set up. Or just start with one element. Just put in some blended learning elements, see how that goes, see how you like it, see how it fits with what you already do that's working. And then add on. Get feedback from the students and see how they like it, see how it's working for them, and then add on the self-pacing or the mastery-based grading part. I would say start small and then build and don't feel like you have to do it all on day one. 


Zach: Yeah, and you know what? It also can be starting small with other aspects of the model, like the self-pacing itself. I did that, actually. I put a pacing tracker on the board, and I was still delivering the lectures before I started teaching Modern Classrooms. But I went to visit Kareem's classroom, his self-paced Modern Classroom. And I was like, oh, I want a pacing tracker because this looks awesome. You can see wherever the kids are at. So you can start with just that too. I agree. You start with one element of the model and don't get hung up on the videos. That's a big one. Oh, my God, that's a big one. How about you, Jesse? What's a tip or a trick that you share? 


Jesse: I actually would second that thing. Don't get hung up on the videos. I remember the first couple of videos I made, man. I stopped and deleted and stopped and deleted and stopped and deleted a bunch of times. And then a friend of mine was like, “just do the videos. They know you're human.” Like, there's a couple of them where I mess up and I'm like, “well, hold on, kids, we got to go back and I can cut things out.” But another thing that specifically with the videos themselves, you can't over-plan on those. I do mine almost like Google Sheets. I actually use PowerPoint because I'm kind of old school in that regard, and I just like that format a little better personally for myself. But I actually print out every slide and I have notes written all over it about how I'm going to go through this and the things I might even say. And I have arrows written everywhere for myself. But you can't over prepare when you're doing those videos and doing a little extra preparation before you take a video makes the videos go so much quicker to make. So that's one thing that I agreed with. And also Amy, when it comes to start small, agree 100%. So last year, all I did was the videos, well all I started with was the videos in the Modern Classroom-style, like, “okay, watch the video content and then do your practice problems, and then we're going to have a test like normal” as I progressed through. 


Amy: PowerPoint is actually really good. I really like it for my videos, too. 


Jesse: Yeah. I just think it's easy to use. You can make it colorful, you can put transitions in if you want. I just love it as a tool for myself. It just works great for my videos. And you can also do screen recording in it now so you can combine a screen record, a screencast, with a slide show. 


Zach: Jesse, it's funny you said that using PowerPoint makes you old school, but I think, well, first of all, I guess we're learning that PowerPoint is not so old school after all. But you teach the way you want to teach, right? And that's the thing about making instructional videos. It's not hard. You can record just a screencast of you giving your presentation over PowerPoint the way that you want to teach. If you're old school, if you're new school, if you just want to talk and have a camera on your face, all of it works. You're absolutely right about planning. We're teachers, we know how to stand up in front of a room of 20 or 25 kids and deliver a lecture. And that's the hard thing, right? We plan for that. We plan hard. That's sort of the bulk of our job, besides actively being in the classroom with the kids. And so as long as you do that, you can put a camera on yourself and then distribute the video of it. It's the same teaching. 


Amy: Definitely. 


Zach: Awesome. Well, thank you both. I love that you both have the same tips, which I completely agree with. It really reinforces how good those two tips and tricks are. And I agree as well. Starting small and not being concerned about the videos. Those are the two sort of most intimidating things, right? “I'm going to completely overhaul my classroom, and I have to learn how to make videos?!” That seems very daunting, but really it's not. And I love that we're sort of hammering that point home. So before we sign off, Amy and Jesse, how can our listeners connect with you? How can people get in touch with you if they'd like to hear some more of your thoughts on self-pacing in secondary school? 


Jesse: Well, they can always email me at my school email, which is Jesse.Buck@concordschools.net. They can also try to reach me out on my Facebook page, which is just Jesse William Earl Buck. Like I said, if anybody wants to ask me about any of this, I would love to share with you guys or with them about any of this stuff just because what's the model or what's one of the things we hear about teaching - it's beg, borrow and steal. So beg, borrow and steal from me all you want. 


Amy: I will. Thank you. 


Jesse: Awesome. 


Zach: And Amy, how about you? How can our listeners connect with you if they want to? 


Amy: I'm very active in the Facebook group. I check it. It's my favorite thing. I check it almost every day. So the Facebook group is a good way to get in touch with me. I also run the Microsoft Users Facebook Group for Modern Classrooms. It's a bit of a sleepy group, but once in a while there'll be a flurry of activity when somebody asks a question and people jump in about Microsoft tools in their Modern Classroom. I'm getting more involved in the Slack channel, so I'm around in there and I am also on Twitter @Azeroffclass and Instagram, also @Azeroffclass. But I rarely post anything, but I look at it. So those are the best ways to find me. 


Zach: Yeah. I just made the connection as to why you have so much to say about PowerPoint. 


Amy: Yes. 


Zach: Well, I want to thank you both so much for joining me tonight. This has been really illuminating for me, especially hearing such a wide range of ages that are all secondary school. I think it's really very fascinating to think about this and to think about some of the Modern Classrooms roots again, thinking back to how it came out of high school classes and how much it's grown and how we've sort of learned from the different ways that people implemented in the different levels and how we bring it right back home to our secondary classrooms. So Amy and Jesse, thank you both so much for joining me. 


Amy: Thank you for having me. 


Jesse: Yeah, it was definitely a pleasure meeting both of you and having this conversation. I enjoyed it immensely. 


Zach: So did I. Thank you both so much. Again, listeners, remember that you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org and of course, you can always find the show notes for this episode at Podcast.Modernclassrooms.org/77. Thank you all so much for listening. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday.


Voiceover: Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org, and you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at Learn.Modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modernclassproj, that's P-R-O-J. We are so appreciative of all you do for students and schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project Podcast.