Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Zach Diamond 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode number 132 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Zach Diamond and I'm an MCP mentor and a middle school digital music teacher in Washington, DC. And today I'm joined by Devin Shrock, a literacy coach at a K-eight school in Vermont. Welcome, Devin. Devin Shrock 0:48 Hello, Zach, thank you so much for having me. Zach Diamond 0:50 Of course. Um, as always, I'm super excited for this conversation, we're going to be talking about Universal Design for Learning, or what I would imagine that we'll be calling UDL for the rest of the episode, because that's quite a mouthful. Zach Diamond 1:03 And I'm really excited. This is the topic that I am familiar with. I've had some trainings at my school. And I've read, I've read equity by design. And that's about as familiar as I am with UDL. And so I'm excited to learn more, along with the listeners tonight. Before we dive in, Devin, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do at school and how you started your modern classrooms journey. Devin Shrock 1:27 All right. Sure. Currently, I'm a literacy coach at a rural K eight school in Vermont, there's about 250 students. Previously, I taught 5/5 and sixth grade multi age, humanities and science at a K six school. And I've pretty much spent my teaching career in middle school. So I've been in middle school, I think, maybe 16 years and three years and outdoor education right out of college. Devin Shrock 1:53 And I've been an MCP mentor for about a year now. And I've tried to help out in other ways, too, with the organization like supporting with content or leading discussion groups. I really love that Monique classroom project provides leadership opportunities for teachers to kind of elevate our voices and allow lots of people to share their expertise. And I first learned about modern classroom projects, like many back in spring of 2020, when the pandemic hits, and the literacy coaches in my district brought it to the attention of the grades three through six teachers. And we had no idea what it was. But we made our first unit, I recorded my first videos, it was super bare bones in terms of a unit. But I really loved the whole flow of everything about it. And I took the free course that summer. And then in fall of 2020, I implemented MCP and two of my humanities classes for fifth and sixth graders, and then quickly added my science class in there as well. And my first year was super Rocky in terms of figuring out self pacing and trying to shorten my videos. I was totally on my own. I didn't have anyone else in my area that I knew of doing MCP and I was trying to figure it out. I actually relied a lot on the podcast, I learned a ton of teacher tips my first year just listening to the podcast. Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was super helpful. Just feeling like I wasn't alone on that journey. And I always tell my mentees though, how amazing it is or taking the mentorship program because they will come out of it at least a full year ahead of my own journey. My first videos I think are almost 20 minutes long. Really torturous for my students. Wow. So you were you were doing these videos before taking the mentorship program? Just having done the free course that I understand that right? Yeah, I never did that. I never did the total mentorship program. I did the free course implemented for a full year and two months and then applied for the distinguished monitor classroom educator, and then went through the expert Mentor Academy. Wow, there you go. People have asked that question. Zach Diamond 3:59 Yeah, people have asked that question. If you can, like become a DMC and become a mentor without doing the mentorship program. And there you go. Proof in action. Devin Shrock 4:08 You can do it. I would say the mentorship program is definitely worth it, though. Zach Diamond 4:12 I agree I, both of us or both of us are mentors. So maybe we're biased, Devin Shrock 4:17 Maybe. And in my current teaching role, I'm not teaching in a classroom per se as working in the role of literacy coach. So I don't have full autonomy of using MCP the way I like to but I tried to use components of the model in a virtual graduate course that I'm teaching on backwards design. Devin Shrock 4:36 And I think all in all, I've been using MCP for three years now and I really can't imagine ever going back to traditional teaching. I love it so much. Zach Diamond 4:47 Yeah, I feel the exact same way. And that's something that we hear a lot on the podcast from guests too. And you know, I it makes sense. It's just so much easier, so much less stressful to do accomplish the same job right? Devin Shrock 4:58 Yeah, yeah. And I think makes teaching fun. Zach Diamond 5:02 I think so too. Yeah. Because you'd have some time to like talk with the kids. And it's not so no shut the grindstone all the time. Totally agree. All right. So I want to dive into this topic now of UDL universal design for learning. I think as a sort of first step, it would be good to just define what UDL is. So broadly, what what do we mean when we talk about universal design for learning? I mean, UDL, capital U, capital D. It's an actual thing, right? What is UDL? What are the hallmarks of UDL inaction? What do we see? Like what sorts of problems are we trying to solve with UDL? Can you? Can you describe to me what UDL is? Devin Shrock 5:40 I can lots of questions there. And full disclaimer, I don't consider myself an expert on UDL, I've just been learning, taking some courses, reading some books, and just dabbling and trying out different aspects of it in my classroom. But I think when we think about what is UDL stands for Universal Design for Learning, as you mentioned, and it really gives all students an equal opportunity to succeed. So it's an approach that offers flexibility in the way students access material in order to show what they know. And it also looks for different ways to keep students motivated and engaged, which of course, is something I think teachers everywhere are grappling with. So it can be really helpful for that. And I think for me, I've tried to boil it down to remove it, removing barriers to learning, which equals more access, and giving options and choices that empower, which is building agency, because that equals high engagement. And to achieve expert learning for all really lends itself to transferable enduring learning, which is really important to me as an educator that we teach to that. That deep learning, Zach Diamond 6:54 so you shared some actual specific UDL guidelines with me from an organization called cast. Can you describe the specific guidelines to me so we can get sort of a sense of what UDL looks like in action? Devin Shrock 7:08 Sure, Castro, three main UDL guidelines that all activate different parts of the brain, it's definitely worth checking out the visual, it's really cool. And there's clickable links that bring you to the research and the teaching strategies behind each one. But essentially, the three guidelines are providing multiple means of engagement, providing multiple means of representation, and providing multiple means of action and expression. And the ultimate goal, if you kind of filter your way down through the diagram, is to get to the point of expert learners who are purposeful and motivated, resourceful, and knowledgeable, strategic and goal directed. So that would be kind of the the end game really get hitting that point of expert learners. And so the goal is to build, build and empower independent learners. So students who are using strategies to tackle a new task, they're not relying on the teacher to think or do for them. And they're really, as a teacher, you're guiding and supporting them on their learning journey. But it's really getting to that lifelong expert learner. Stage. Zach Diamond 8:14 Yeah, I like this idea of an expert learner, as, you know, listeners to this podcast, no, I really am into this idea of like, we should be measuring learning and not so much teaching. So I like the, the way of putting the focus on the learner that way as an expert, right? Like, this is something that you're going to be doing as an expert, and hopefully something that you'll be doing as an expert for your whole life being an expert learner, right. From I kind of want to like, break apart these ideas of access, and, you know, barriers. You know, okay, so for me, I like I mentioned, I read the book equity by design, which is the UDL book. And so for me, the two concepts are closely related right? Equity, in learning and in classrooms, and UDL. So I wonder if we could sort of shift the topic towards that direction to maybe try and understand what kind of barriers we're trying to tear down with UDL. You know, what's what access looks like? In a UDL, UDL infused classroom, if you will. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, what What problems are we solving? Like? What are we what is the approach of UDL? What does it look like in a classroom? Devin Shrock 9:26 Sure. So with UDL, you're really thinking about how you don't do UDL. First of all you use it when you design best access for the variability of the learners in your room. So it's really thinking about how can you provide multiple pathways for your students to express what they're learning? How can you provide universal designs and supports that might not just be good for one student, they might be good for all so they're universal. So I'll get Have a really quick example of my takeaway. When I first learned about UDL, I was reading Katie Novak's book on learning. And it's basically about how you need to unlearn your current way of, of thinking and teaching to disrupt the system because the system isn't really working for all kids. And that's our goal. As educators, we want to support everyone's achievement. And I was kind of, I read it for a book group in my, in my school with some other teachers. And what I was blown away by was this idea of why force Cornell notes when you could do other kinds of notes. And I was thinking, hmm, yeah, I do teach Cornell notes. And I think they're great. And I think they're, I think note taking as a skill is a really important skill for students to learn. And it never crossed my mind that there could be other options for teaching notes that are completely different. So she brought up the idea of sketch notes, which led me on kind of a hunt, into the internet on sketch notes, and how to teach it and what it is, and how to break it down for fifth and sixth graders. And I was like, Oh, those are really cool. And if you love to draw and doodle and make those connections, with with writing, and the content, that's awesome. Like, if that's your pathway to understanding, why not go for it. So I definitely read that went home, completely added a lesson into my MCP unit, I was teaching on perspectives of the American Revolution. And everybody got to do a lesson on sketch notes. And from that point forward, they had a choice, do you would you rather do Cornell notes or sketch notes, and they could pick, it didn't matter? They had they, they were learning which one suited them best. And at the end of the day, it met everybody's goals. So it could be as simple just as like, offering options, like, which one would you rather do? Yeah, it changed my mindset, Zach Diamond 11:58 ya know, that that I understand? That's very cool. Because I see the Universal Design in that, right. We're not mandating a certain type of note taking, right. We're just saying, use any kind of note, but you're offering them two choices in this case. But I see, like I said, I see the Universal Design in that, because it's designed universally, right, the task is not contingent on the, the like, the form, if that makes sense. Right? We're asking students to access the content in different ways. You are opening avenues of access for them that maybe wouldn't have been there. Had you had you require to the Cornell notes. And so you are providing access in ways that it wasn't there, there was an actual barrier, if a student has for some reason, or for some reason, resists taking Cornell notes that that makes sense to me. Devin Shrock 12:53 And I definitely had students who did. Yeah. And I think also just having just just having the choice builds agency to I mean, you're allowing more buy in from your students, because you're giving them options and pathways that they can enter the learning. Zach Diamond 13:11 Yeah, I remember, a, I think it was a TED talk, I'm gonna see if I can try it this time for the show notes. That was shown to us in a training that we did on UDL. At the beginning of the school year, actually, about I don't remember who gave the talk. But the, the example they gave was of fighter pilots, and the way that the cockpit was designed for people of average height, but the average actually was like, the fewest people, right? Even though it's the center of the bell curve, where the curve is the highest, like, there are more people outside of the average. And that, that, that sort of image of a bell curve, being sort of, like, more massive on the sides, really stuck with me, because, you know, it doesn't have to just be notes, right, like, opening these avenues of access by allowing options. I see what you mean, now how you use universal design, it's like, it's the design of the task, we think about less what the students are going to have to actually do. In terms of what we plan for them, we think about what we want them to learn. Right. And so we provide them avenues of access or options to access that content in different ways. That's, that's really cool. I like that. Yeah. Devin Shrock 14:23 And I think they can also, I think that bell curve speaks to the learner variability, right? Like, right, we all vary and how we learn and when we learn and where we learn. And so having lots of different pathways available to us is going to help us achieve success. Zach Diamond 14:39 Yeah, it does. Um, can you can you give some examples of like, besides the notes, do you have any other examples of how you you put that into action? Devin Shrock 14:48 Okay, I have a ton of examples. One really simple one that I really like and it would be great to put in the show notes is a is something called Would You Rather and I believe it's Viking didn't know that. But it's just a simple PDF that you could print out and have handy. And it's basically just going through, you know, would you rather data data or data data? And you can, it has a bajillion examples, but you can fill it in with whatever you think. But just framing it reframing to would you rather, was really changed my mindset. So for example, I had two students who struggled with accessing the texts. And then I asked them, would you rather listen to the text and follow along on your computer? Read the text in a group with me or read or read a hard copy of the text and write on it? Zach Diamond 15:36 I get it. Yeah. Would you rather take Cornell notes or sketch notes? Right? Same idea. Devin Shrock 15:42 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just that would you rather language though, for me was like mind blowing? Zach Diamond 15:47 Yes. Because it puts it in the students control? Exactly. Devin Shrock 15:50 Yeah. And I think also just, you know, you're giving your students agency that's like, that's thinking about that multiple means of representation. And an action, like how they're going to how they're going to learn. And I think the other piece of it is thinking about how are you getting to expert learning, because expert learning is the goal, the end game. And it's not just about mastery of the skills of a particular lesson or an end of unit assessment. I think sometimes we, we might miss the bigger picture of deep learning if we just focus on mastery of each individual lesson. But if we're really trying to get to that realm of deep learning, we have to think about backwards designing our unit and, and then our backwards, backwards designer, MCP lessons all and so they all revolve around a really deep, essential question that we can keep discussing and debating throughout the unit, and work towards an authentic performance or project based task. And with UDL, something I've been thinking a lot about is in the past year is thinking about for the summative task of a unit, how can I provide multiple pathways so that students can showcase their learning, which would be the multiple means of representation idea of UDL. So, for example, you know, in science, we were studying the question, why is access to clean water important. And we wanted to create a clean water museum for other students in the community to learn from fifth and sixth graders. So the students brainstorm topics for the museum, they rated their top topics, they worked in small groups to create an engaging museum exhibit. And they interviewed each other in their groups to find out each other's strengths. And I was able to guide them in using those strengths so that they could have these conversations Oh, like you would really like to do in art component, or, Oh, you want to do an engineering kind of component and design for the exhibit for oh, you really want to write something for the exhibit. And so building in those that really authentic opportunities for collaboration, and voice and choice for our students, creates really, really strong deep learning experiences for them. And of course, all the opportunities for reflection that are there are amazing, right? Like just having building that metacognition for our students to really grow with who they are, and develop their identity as a learner. Zach Diamond 18:21 Yeah, I mean, that is incredible. I think like, I can sort of feel the Would You Rather, language sort of seeping into the content? Almost, it's like, do you want to approach this? Or sorry, would you rather approach this from an engineering perspective, or from, I don't know, like, clean water, like a city planning perspective, or something like that. There's like different ways to approach the same thing. And, again, I see it also functioning at the level of design, because it's sort of like, what we really care about is, is learning and we especially I feel like in a modern classroom unit that's planned out and really chunked apart. But even just generally, that's good practice in teaching, right? Like, it's not so much about micromanaging the the product that the students create, it's about figuring out how to help them learn the thing. And then they can demonstrate it in any variety of ways, whatever they would rather write. And the options, I'm starting to sort of imagine the options branching way out beyond just Cornell or sketch notes, right, like, especially in the summative, you know, I think about this a lot at the level of, because, of course, I teach music and so like, music is any kind of art is a very personal, expressive type of thing, right? And so I'm not gonna micromanage the product. I feel like if I told everyone, you know, play a C major scale, that's a practice, right, but that's not making music. I can teach them to do that, and they can learn to do it. But that's not deep learning, right? Like that's sort of rote learning. That's just reproducing what I told them to do. But then if I say, Now, take the notes of the C Major scale that you know how to play and make a song out of them. That's four measures long, they'll all make different songs. And so like, it's would you rather on the level of individual notes, I guess, right like it. But I guess that's a very sort of like microscopic way of looking at musical composition. But it's creativity, right? It's it gets creativity within the parameters of the content. So you're right about the woody rather than language, it really puts into perspective. The, the sort of thrust of UDL as as a way of providing students pathways to into learning. That's, that's a really great way of framing this. And I like thinking about it that way. It's very helpful. Devin Shrock 20:38 It's interesting that you mentioned that too. Because when I first started learning about UDL, would you rather was my first kind of go to, and when you brought it in, and how that connects to the idea of a summit, summative task and the pathway that you use to show your Showcase your learning, I never even thought to think about it as Would You Rather, show your learning this way? Like even just putting that those couple words in there? Would you rather? I love that, though, like, I would want to put that into my description for the summative tasks now. Zach Diamond 21:08 Yeah, it your app? I mean, I know, we're just thanking each other back and forth, right? Like, because you taught this to me, but the Would You Rather, it really, really helps me to sort of see this very clearly. And just conceptualize it in my mind, I really, I really liked that language. And I feel like also, it's it's sort of in in the same vein as modern classrooms, teachers talking about sort of giving up control, which we do, I think that we give up control. And I think that in a lot of ways, when I when I think that and I think about that, I'm imagining classroom management. But really, I'm now thinking about it also, in terms of like the sort of shape of the product, right, the form of the product, and letting students make whatever product that they want, within, obviously, within guidelines, and the younger the students are, the more guidelines that need to be the more parameters right, but would you rather, it's just like you do it your way, just make sure that you're, you're hitting these particular parameters. Devin Shrock 22:12 Right. So it's not a free for all? Right? Of course, like, obviously, Zach Diamond 22:15 we can't just I can't just walk into the class and say, make a song, you have six weeks, right? Like there's a lot of teaching structuring and scaffolding and breaking down and teaching exactly right. But, but the end product looks different for every student. And I see a lot of connections with project based learning as well. But maybe that's just because that's how that's the that's the sort of framework of pedagogy that I use. But yeah, I'm really, really quite enjoying this. And I guess that those three words are worth their weight in gold. So if we get nothing else out of this, would you rather isn't? Devin Shrock 22:52 They are not my words there. Kitty Novak's? Zach Diamond 22:55 Yes, I have I have I haven't linked in the show notes. Devin Shrock 22:57 I think what you were mentioning to about your classroom and the the ultimate project that they're creating, I think is they've done all this amazing learning up to that point. It's really an opportunity for them to apply everything they know and showcase their final projects at that point. Yeah, it's like the app. It's the ultimate application, right of the learning. Zach Diamond 23:18 Yeah. Yeah. I think that for me is that's an aspect of project based learning. I think that like, continually working on something that is the actual summative is, I think it's a really strong, sort of like, it gives a lot of authenticity to every minute of work, because you know that everything that you're doing will be a part of the final product felt like they're doing drills to prepare for the summative. They're working on the summative the whole time. But I see UDL as you're describing, it sort of reflected in that because the choices that they make within each individual tasks add up to a very unique and individual final product as well. Devin Shrock 24:01 So one of the we talked a lot about the UDL guideline of multiple means of representation. I think that's how we ended up thinking about project based learning, which I also really love and could talk about no one else has a whole episode about. And it's interesting does even thinking about like UDL within the context of that. So because of course, like if there's multiple ways to represent your learning, that is, you know, providing a universal pathway. But I think there's also, I also wanted to just think about the multiple means of engagement, which was one of the UDL guidelines. And I think one of the little sub components, if you look at the picture is providing options for self regulation. And I think teachers can really help students recognize that learning is hard and challenging and they're going to get stuck and really help them with strategies for how to get unstuck and get towards that destination. And I know in MCP, we promote mastery oriented feedback and developing that self assessment and reflection. And it just ties in really beautifully to that UDL guideline. So I know for me in my classroom, every couple of lessons, I embed a reflection question at the bottom of my students mastery, check to build metacognition. So I might ask, what are you proud of name a time in the lesson or this past week when you persevered. gauge how you're doing on us gauge how you're using your class time on this scale? Or what would you do? What would you do differently the next class period? Or how do you help a classmate this week? So I think having those really intentional opportunities to provide reflection and help your students grow in that skill is also a really important pathway of UDL. Zach Diamond 25:48 Yeah, 100%. I mean, I totally agree with that. And I agree that that definitely ties in with what modern classrooms is doing. You know, reflection is obviously huge. It's something we call out very explicitly in the mentorship program, like, how will you have your students reflect? But I like, also. Because if we're asking students, would you rather do it this way? Or would you rather do it that way? Some that is, in and of itself? A reflective question, right. And some of them might not have ever considered that. So it's good to I like the idea of putting the question in front of them, like, Did this go well, for you? Or maybe, were you did you? Did you mistake your your affinity for one way of doing things? And actually wish you had done it the other way? Or even you know, very interesting, very interesting to think about reflection in in those terms. Devin Shrock 26:34 Yeah, I remember when I first did that had an epiphany about oh, there's, I could teach students multiple ways of doing notes. And then they can make that choice for what works best for them. And I remember having a sixth grade student, be so excited about sketch notes. And she did sketch notes for a couple of lessons. And then she said, You know what, Devin? I think the sketch notes aren't working for me. I mean, I love them, but I don't know that they're working for me. And I said, Okay, why is that? And she said, Well, it's because I'm spending so much time on them that I'm not getting to anything else. And there's so in depth, it's actually hindering me basically, from moving forward. And I mean, these notes were amazing and beautiful. But she was right like that, metacognition, that she realized, this, this, I love this, but it might not be the best choice. And I'm gonna go back to Cornell notes, which maybe I find slightly more boring, but a little bit more purposeful and moving myself forward. But like, what an amazing conversation to have with a student Zach Diamond 27:32 with a sixth grader, I mean, wow. Like, that's amazing. Yeah, it really is. That's like, it's so I feel like it's often difficult to communicate with students why we're doing these reflective questions. You know, it feels like a question you have to answer because your teacher put it in front of you kind of a thing. But that conversation is exactly the reason why it's like, I love doing these sketch notes. And maybe I'll make it a hobby or something like I know that about myself now. But in this class, it's actually holding me back in terms of my learning. It's just like, wow, you know, the realization is that you can come to a show actually, like, change her practice. Now she'll actually change what she's doing. Devin Shrock 28:13 Yeah, it was pretty incredible. But I think, you know, if our goal is expert learning, and students developing their own identity as a learner, like she's on her Road, she's on the road there. It's amazing. Zach Diamond 28:25 Yep. I want to go to the break now. Because when we come back from the break, we're going to talk more about how UDL ties into modern classrooms. And I'm starting to see those parallels connecting now like the metacognition of reflection, I'm seeing this, and I'm, I'm thinking about modern classrooms more in terms of the actual model and UDL. So let's go to the break, listeners. We will be right back. We're going to have a quick announcement, and then we'll continue talking more about implementing UDL in a modern classroom. Allison Vanterpool 28:58 If you're ready to build a modern classroom, we have scholarships for you. We're offering a special invite only session for up to 200 educators and our April 3 to May 7 session. This opportunity includes fully funded tuition to our virtual mentorship program, which gives you one on one support as you create materials for your modern classroom. To apply, visit www dot modern classrooms.org/april. podcast by March 20. Zach Diamond 29:30 All right, folks, we're back with Devin and we're going to talk more about UDL Universal Design for Learning. But now more specifically, how we connect to UDL and modern classrooms. So I guess before we do that, this is the question that I like to ask the guests that I speak with him the podcast. I'd like you just to sort of describe your modern classroom, just because I feel like it helps to sort of frame the discussion right. Talk about what you do. Talk about what kind of tracker you use, talk about what your mastery checks look like your unit planning that kind of thing. and I would assume that there's some overlap with UDL there as well. I mean, there's always something to learn. hearing teachers share the sort of workings of their class. But like I said, I think it helps to frame the discussion as well. So could you just just sort of describe like a normal day in your class when you were teaching and, and also how this shows up in your coaching? Devin Shrock 30:18 Sure. So when I was teaching fifth and sixth grade at the multiage classroom, and for the way we would always start class was they would come in, they'd find their seats, we'd start at table groups. And I would ring the singing Bell, and we would do a mindful moment together. And eventually, the students would leave the mindful moment. And that would just kind of ground us and set us for the work ahead. Last year, I was focusing on using the book The writing revolution. And we would do a whole class warm up. And I basically made a note page from the lesson I was teaching the reading lesson I was teaching from the book and made a note page, there'll be notes at the top, and then there were lesson classifications on that whole group warmup. So there would be must, you should do and aspire dues on that. At the top of that page was was an SEL, check in with little emojis. So they could circle after the singing Bell, they could circle how they were feeling at that moment. And I would do a little mini lesson 510 minutes tops, and they would take some notes on that paper. And in whatever way they want it to go made sense for them. And then they would try out some practice on the must do. And then we would share that out together. And then they if they were moving quicker, at a quicker pace they could go to the should dues or aspire dues was all connected to the same objective for that reading lesson. And so that was maybe the first 15 minutes of the class. And then we would look at the public Progress Tracker on the whiteboard together. And we would make sure it was updated correctly, because our students are so good at letting us know if something's inaccurate on the Progress Tracker, Zach Diamond 32:12 they are very observant. Yes. Devin Shrock 32:17 And we would just take a moment to do a private private goal setting for the class period. And so students could write their write their goal down on their on a piece of paper or on the back of their writing warmup, they could turn to their neighbor and tell their neighbor the goal, they could keep their goal in their head, I sometimes would say hey, is there any, there's are two people who want to share their goal out loud. So that would be thinking about UDL like and how you're expressing your goal. And then there would be about 40 minutes of work time, MCP work time. And, you know, a real a really easy like, entry point for UDL is just thinking about your classroom layout and your physical space. So what my students all started at table groups, but then during the MCB break MCP breakout time, they could go anywhere in the classroom. So maybe they would rather sit on the floor with pillows, or sit over at the high top table with peers or maybe sit at the window seats. And so they're just staring out the window while they're working. Or maybe they wanted to work at the back table with me. And then we would come back together after the work time and do some closure. And we would do a lesson all stars that I would announce. And then if there was time, they could also do some student shoutouts as well, just for what they appreciate or recognize from their classmates during that. Zach Diamond 33:45 Oh, that's great. I mean, I think that like you have a it's a very intensive opening routine, which I think with sixth graders is important. Sixth graders are the youngest students that I teach. So I sort of think of them as the ones who need the most support. You had even younger kids. So it would make sense to have that kind of a long, highly structured routine, that sort of gradually becomes less structured. Is that right? I sort of interpreted it that way. Devin Shrock 34:17 Yeah, I think that's a good way to say it, we kind of we all started together. And then when we broke out into the modern classroom, project work time, there were lots of options about how you could work with your peers or yourself or your or with your teacher. And yeah, there was definitely more. Right more choice and agency in those those pieces. Yep. Zach Diamond 34:38 Yeah. And that's probably the UDL piece starting to tie in. Right. But like, the Gradual Release of structure, I guess, was a way of putting it is it's interesting because it like it sets them up to be in the mindset to work when you do release them completely for independent MCP work, but they have time to reflect and think like, what do I have to do? Who am I going to work? Near, where do I want to work in the room, I know what I like, don't want to present the news, I want to go to what's comfortable, like don't want to, you know, all these things like you sort of give them you have them all doing the same thing in a way that like they're familiar with the routine. So that's just doing whatever. And that gives them the time and the space to sort of imagine themselves working, and get ready for that. So it puts them it really sets them up for success, which I think is important. When you're giving 11 and 12 year olds 40 minutes to work. That's a, you know, it's a long time. They need to be set up for success. And so just in terms of modern classrooms, self pacing, like it gives them the sense of what they need to do. And in terms of UDL, it lets them decide what they would rather write. So that's, that's really cool. I think that opening routine definitely stuck with me. Devin Shrock 35:48 I think when we're intentional too, and coming in when you're switching classes, I think just having that moment just to ground yourself and be all together can be really helpful. I know. And I say I'm totally open to my students to that. As soon as classes switch, I feel frenzy because I'm wrapping up the previous class, I'm minds on something else, I gotta get ready for the next group of students coming in. So I tell them when you see me standing in front of the room, with my feet on the ground, I am grounding myself because I'm taking a breath. Because that will help me be ready for and available for you guys. You know, you all heard just coming in. Zach Diamond 36:23 Right? Right? How long are these classes? I got the 40 minutes, and I think I got like 10 or 15? Maybe the beginning. But how long are the classes? Devin Shrock 36:30 I think there was 75. Maybe somewhere around there. Does anyone know? Does that math add up? Right? Zach Diamond 36:37 Yeah, listeners can can rewind the tape and do the math. Well, that's it. That's like a very long class period. To me. My classes are 5050 minutes long. But yeah, okay. So there you go. I want to ask you also about the graduate course that you mentioned, that you teach is monitor classrooms. Do you use the model in that graduate course as well? Devin Shrock 36:57 I use components of it. Yep. I love the feedback journal from the mentorship program. So I have an adapted version of that to give formative feedback as students create their unit for their for the they're creating, they're building a unit for their own class, or course, because this is a graduate course on backwards design. So their project that they're building along the way, much like you have your students build their song along the way, is they're building their unit design. So that's their project that they're building. And yeah, so I have the I love the feedback there. And also, I kind of used that model. As they're doing each different submission moving towards finishing a unit draft. And then in, that's awesome. Each module, each module that they do is two weeks long. And so in the module, they'll have a Google document and the Google document has their, what assignments are, it's coded for what assignments or building background knowledge, and what are assignments that they'll submit. And then there's the must do should do and aspire to do on each module so that they can take their learning to whichever level they would like to. And it has three pictures along the top. So everything kind of has little icons next to it for which ones are background knowledge, or collaborative opportunities. So there's, when we do the Zoom calls are not lecture based or discussion based. So they're doing peer reviews of each other's on each other's unit designs, and giving each other feedback. And over the other one is the, you know, there's a little like a target icon for their assignments. So that's UDL in a way too, because UDL is essentially like, how do we provide opportunities and, and things that could be helpful for everybody in the room. So if somebody finds that really helpful, that their things are coded so that they can really easily see which assignments or what, maybe that's helpful for more than one person in the room. Zach Diamond 39:01 Sure. And I, I definitely hear that reflected in the most you should do aspire to do sort of structure and that I think, is a, my school has sort of adopted that language, just universally, even outside of any teachers or teachers who have no knowledge of modern classrooms at all. Use that language, because the students use that language and they really understand it. So it's a very good framework for understanding like, this is the core content that you're supposed to be learning and here are some ways you could extend it, right? I love that. And the feedback journal, that's, that's very cool. Like for listeners who aren't familiar who haven't taken the virtual mentorship program with modern classrooms. The feedback journal is actually somebody that the mentor writes in mainly, you know, the, the mentees, if you're taking the training, you submit each module and then the mentor writes up their feedback in the feedback journal. So it's a, you call it formative feedback, right? That's, that's what it really is. It's like a document where you, the professor or the teacher, or the mentor can provide feedback. And of course, the mentees that I work with, I say this to them, like you have access to this document, you can type in it, you can write comments, you can, you know, and we can go back and forth. And it almost becomes like a living document, because there's a bajillion comments on the side of like, you know, here's why I put it like this. Can you explain this or whatever, it's, it's very cool. So I love that that's a very cool idea to use the feedback journal. So yeah, that's, that's great. Can you Can we can we now move more into the UDL topic? Like how would you say explicitly that UDL ties in to both of these classes, I think, listeners, I might probably would imagine to be more interested in the school in the K and the K six or K 12? setting, but both I mean, I'm curious. How does UDL tie in here? Devin Shrock 40:56 Yeah, I think. Well, one thing we haven't really talked about yet is blended learning. So I think blended learning, in and of itself, helps increase access for more students. I think teachers who have begun implementing with MCP quickly realized that that definitely, students can replay videos, when they need to, they can pause the video, they can skip ahead of a head in a video. I mean, that just really organically caters to learners needs because they get to drive the car. On the video car. Zach Diamond 41:30 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I, I'm like the, it's funny using a video. And using this model. I, when I read IEP s now it's like, a lot of the most common accommodations on IEP s are just like Check, check, check, check, check, check. Like, we really do provide all of those accommodations, just by using video, you know, reading aloud having the text on the screen, all of this stuff, it's like, it's just built right in it's it's actually relatively easy to do it. And it's not like a cop out. Right? It's, it's, you're right like it, it just provides so many options for the students and that provides those accommodations as well. Devin Shrock 42:07 And if you're putting your videos into a you know, if you're adding comprehension, check questions that are closed ended that give immediate feedback on your videos that's going to boost engagement, which is also a guideline of UDL. So, yeah, there's just so many opportunities with the videos. And I think also I know, I remember listening to this podcast, and I think it was maybe Kate Gaskell a long time ago, I hope I'm saying her name, right. She mentioned headphone splitters. And I was like, Oh, what's that? And that was a game changer for my students. Because some students like to listen to videos alone. And some students love the opportunity to put headphone splitters in there, Jack and listen to the video together and pause it together and have conversations or take notes together. So even just having those Would You Rather options. Yeah, Zach Diamond 42:56 yeah, I have. I have students that do that too. Cool. Yeah. Devin Shrock 42:59 I mean, I personally don't love that. I wouldn't love doing that. But I love that other people who are really social and want that opportunity have that chance to do that in the classroom. And I think I think you mentioned text. You know, one thing I've been learning how to figure out recently is adding captions to video. And so thinking about UDL that might really benefit certain learners in our classroom. So why not make it universal? And it's just there, and anybody can then access the captions on the videos. Yeah. Zach Diamond 43:31 Yeah, absolutely. I'm, so I'm going to link this in the, in the show notes. I made the mountain classrooms tutorial on adding subtitles or captions to videos. And one of the things that I learned is that students who don't need the captions, right, who aren't hard of hearing, who speak the language natively, they still benefit in terms of retention and learning, when they read with captions. Like, I guess like, that's not exactly UDL, but like, we are providing access, and it's just a benefit for everybody. Yeah, Devin Shrock 44:04 exactly. And it also builds reading fluency as a quick little, because your eyes are naturally drawn to that. And I think a lot of you know, I see a lot of mentees do this on their videos, but just that slow release of information, you know, making sure your video doesn't have too much text, having using the annotation tool, those are all things that are going to increase engagement and accessibility for comprehension. So those are also you know, aspects of UDL. I think people are doing so many things without realizing they're even doing them. Just to boost that. Zach Diamond 44:41 Yeah, no, but I really liked this because the way you're describing it makes it feel easy. You know, it's like, it's it's not like a major hurdle. It's not like a total overhaul to implement elements of UDL. It's like, we're already doing it in a lot of ways. Modern classrooms, is it in a lot of ways because we're providing it This blended sort of modality, the instructional videos. And I mean, that's, that's great, right? It doesn't have to be difficult. It's just like, you know, think about it in this way you are doing it. Think about it in this way, and it helps to understand why it's beneficial. But it's not like a total overhaul. Devin Shrock 45:18 Yeah, I don't think it's a total overhaul, I think it's just a mindset shift in how we're designing our physical space or digital space in order to really get every student what they need to be successful. Zach Diamond 45:33 Yeah, and I'm, it makes me think back to what we were talking about before, about the sort of giving up of control. I was thinking about that more in terms of content, right, like, or formatting of the work, right, like what kind of notes students are taking, giving up control in that sense to let students do it in their own preferred way. But also in terms of modern classrooms, right, and self pacing, taking the time that they need, it is a universal design element, I guess, I'm not sure which of the three guidelines this would fit under, maybe accent expression, but like, if you need two days to learn lesson two, and I need four days to learn lesson two, and someone else needs just one day. Modern classrooms gives us that flexibility. Clearly, I think that's like the point of, of modern classrooms, that's sort of my, my own personal fundamental reason for using the model is to let students take the time that they need, and all the rest of it is just sort of like the pieces that are required for for that to work. But thinking about it now in terms of UDL, I see like that, that the time that it takes is also another pathway into the learning, you know, and the kinds of conversations that students need to have like the, it, it gives a lot of credence to each individual student's needs. Right, and encourages and allows you to cater to them. Devin Shrock 46:57 Yeah, I absolutely agree. I think that that timing piece, I mean, nobody likes to be rushed as a learner. Adults don't like that either. And I think just having that space to, to think think about what you're learning I love in my classroom, the organic conversations that pop up, you know, sometimes I'm kind of quick to think, Oh, they're off task, but Well, if I'll pop over, and they're actually having this amazing, organic conversation together about what they're learning, like, that's a beautiful, that is deep learning. I mean, that's what we hope for, for our students, Zach Diamond 47:29 right? Or sometimes, like it might sound like it's off task at first, but they're talking about something else. And applying what they're learning to like the other thing in their life, you know? Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, okay. I mean, I guess, maybe I should have seen this coming. Right, like modern classrooms. It's just a very flexible model to be a learner in. And so I see I see the, the UDL tie ins now. And of course, the Would You Rather is super helpful in terms of understanding, sort of like the thrust of UDL and seeing it, seeing it and modern classrooms meshing together, they really do go very well together, because we're really providing those access points, those different pathways in a variety of different sort of ways. So that's really fantastic. Devin, tell me what you hope to see in the future like, where do you want to go with this? I know, you're now an instructional coach, you're still you said you're learning about UDL and applying it yourself? What goals do you have in terms of UDL? Or just in terms of education in general? I mean, what goals do you have for yourself? Devin Shrock 48:43 I think for myself, and education, I would love to keep pushing the envelope of really getting intentional about our curriculum design, so that we can meet all of our students needs, but really, really getting to that, you know, they call it UDL, expert learning, but that idea of transferable enduring learning, like really driving our planning and our instruction, towards that deeper learning that's really, authentically engaging for students. That's what makes me really excited about education. I'm also kind of a radical disrupter of education. So I like to kind of toss old systems out that I feel like I'm working and I get really excited about the possibilities of where learning can go. Zach Diamond 49:29 A radical disrupter very much love that Tinder. And I think that I am one too. I love that. I mean, yes, that's throw away. This is sort of the don't work, right. Devin Shrock 49:39 I don't know how much I should preach that though. Zach Diamond 49:44 Well, at least let's have an open mind. Let's have an open mind as to what systems are working and which ones aren't working. Right. Like, I think that that's the key here. You know, we're finding honing and improving, right? We all want to serve the needs of all of our students and you know, looking for ways Is that we can do that because I think a lot of the current systems don't do that. And I think that anyone listening to this, who has any interest in MCP at all, probably agrees or at least understands some things needs to change. So a radical, a radical disrupter. So, Devin, how can our listeners connect with you if they want any of these many, many resources that I am linking in the show notes as well, but if listeners would like to talk with you more about UDL and MCP and how they connect or just UDL in general, how can our listeners connect with you? Devin Shrock 50:31 listeners can feel free to connect via email. My email address is Devin d v i n dot Schrock sch Roc K at modern classrooms.org. Zach Diamond 50:43 Awesome. And I will have that linked in the show notes as well. What a great episode. Devin, thank you so much for joining me. Devin Shrock 50:49 Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure. Yeah, Zach Diamond 50:52 it was great listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org/132. We will have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there or check back here in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. And of course, thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we will be back next Sunday. Zach Diamond 51:27 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's PR O J. We are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.