Zach Diamond  00:03
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.  Hello, and welcome to season four of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. This is episode number 151. And my name is Zach Diamond, he/him pronouns, and I'm a middle school digital music teacher in Washington, DC, and of course, a modern classrooms implementer and mentor, and I am super excited to be kicking off this fourth season. I hope you enjoyed the short cast we were publishing over the summer, I definitely enjoyed editing those. And going back and getting to hear those older episodes, which was quite the experience for me very reflective summer, editing those short casts. Anyway, our topic for this episode is humanizing teaching practices, which is something that I am very passionate about. And I'm joined by Paul France, a national board-certified teacher and the author of the upcoming book make teaching sustainable. Welcome, Paul.

Paul France  01:18
Thanks so much for having me. I'm so stoked to be here.

Zach Diamond  01:20
I am stoked too and thank you so much for joining me, before we dive into this very important and very interesting topic, I would like for you to introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners. So tell us a little bit more about yourself. I know you're an author, I'm learning that. That's very cool. But tell us more about who you are, how you got into education, and also how you started your modern classroom journey.

Paul France  01:43
Yeah, for sure. So I started as an elementary school teacher, from 2010 until 2020. I have taught kindergarten first, second, third, fourth and fifth grade. Multi age classes too. So I've taught the craziest, the craziest class I ever taught was a second through fifth grade multi age class, it was very challenging, and actually, that that experience really informed my perspective on personalized learning. And we can talk a little bit about that in a bit. But that was such a wild experience. It was it was fun. And it was I learned so much. But I would not recommend a second through fifth grade multi age class. But so I spent four I spent four years in public school teaching fourth and fifth grade, then I went to San Francisco, and I worked for an education technology startup company and network of micro schools, formerly known as Old School, it's now closed. And that was where I got a lot of experience with personalized learning. Our hypothesis there was that if we provided every child an individualized playlist of activities, that they would that we would personalize their learning for them. And to make a very long story short, it didn't work. And and that is also in addition to the multi age classroom. You know, what I sort of was a pivotal experience for me and my career and just my understanding of what Personalized learning is. But then also what what it means to make teaching sustainable. Because the method we were using there was not a sustainable method for personalization. In part, it was just way too much work. But also because it was dehumanizing in the sense that kids were turned more towards screens and learning from screens, more than they were learning from each other or in community with one another. And so that for that humanization, or it really comes into play. So after I left there, and 2017, I moved back to Chicago, which is where I'm from I absolutely love Chicago, I worked for an independent school here, in what's called Gold Coast's one of the neighborhoods here, I taught third grade for three more years. Really fun experience there as well. But I ultimately left in 2020, because I was really let's just say I was not pleased with my school's response to COVID. And I just didn't feel safe going back. So I, I decided at that point, I already published a book. And I decided at that point, I was going to try and go out on my own. And so now I'm self employed, and I have my own practice. So I do see I have a caseload of students I see who needs support. And then I also do a lot of consulting work. I continue to write my new book comes out very soon. And, and that's what I do now. And that's where I'm at. And I'm still just insatiably fascinated by learning. And that's why I continue to do the work that I do.

Zach Diamond  04:37
Yeah, that's fantastic. I love how you frame those those stories, in terms of like learning from, I guess, challenges or experiences that weren't totally successful, like the multi grade, or multi age second to fifth that sounds like total chaos to me, but clearly, there's something to be learned from an experience like that and also the sort of dehumanizing person analyze learning perspective that comes from, you know, having done that, that's very interesting. And I like the mindset, you know, of like looking at the challenges and taking things from them that you can learn and move forward. And, of course, now put them into these sort of like more meaningful and hopefully positive and successful approaches to personalized and humanizing learning. So very, very cool. Well, let's dive in. Let's dive in. I really, really, really look forward to this conversation. I think that listeners of this podcast will have heard me talking a lot about building relationships with students, and how I personally feel that just the importance of seeing our students as whole humans, right, people and interacting with them, like people and treating them like people. So this is a conversation that is really, really important to me. And I'm excited to get into it here. I want to start out by kind of defining what we mean, when we talk about humanizing teaching practices, like that's a very kind of broad term, very umbrella term, it can mean lots of different things, lots of different approaches. But can we define what we mean? What does it look like when we teach in ways that put our students humanity first, you know, what does that look like in the classroom? Can you describe what that means to you?

Paul France  06:17
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do think there's an element here of zooming out first, and examining the way that we think about teaching and learning, just broadly, you know, because by and large, a lot of the traditional practices probably, but I'm assuming that maybe you grew up on that I grew up on, right, a lot of those practices are not really grounded in humanizing learning. They're grounded in the, the industrialization of learning, right? So like, absolutely worksheet driven learning, textbook driven learning, these are all serving, you know, a bigger system that really is powered by standardized test scores. You know, there's really no way around that to, you know, I hate to, I hate to sound reductive, and I hate to, like, bring it down to one key factor. But if you look at the emphasis on standardized test scores in our country, it impacts it influences. Everything that we do, and influences the way we think about teaching and learning. Right? Like, right? It's so powerful, and it's so insidious, right, that that the desirability of neighborhoods and home values.

Zach Diamond  07:22
Yes, I was gonna say home values are tied in. Yeah.

Paul France  07:25
So if you think about it in that way, right, it really it kind of when you wait, it really, when it really hits you, and it really sets in, it's like a wow moment. Holy cow, that is what learning is in our country. Like it's linked to property values. And so that's where you can sort of see like, why the textbook industry is so big and why people are so you know, get into a tizzy about standardized test scores. It's not just about how well is my kid doing in school, it's about this is like a currency in our culture. So shifting away from that industrialization and towards humanization means challenging things like that, right? And asking ourselves first, how are we defining success in school, because if we're defining success in school solely on these, these standardized tests, these quantitative metrics, you know, generally standardized tests, or if we're even centering them, and just sort of coloring, everything else with more qualitative metrics, it's that is likely to dehumanize learning because it's serving a system, it's not serving individuals. And it's kind of like, you know, I think about this with parenting, and I'm not a parent. I've not been fortunate enough to be a patriot, I hope to be someday. But you know, like, when you I believe that when you have kids, right? It shouldn't be for shouldn't be for the parent, you know, when you thought that parents can't derive joy and, and, you know, validation and everything from having kids, because like, when you have a child, you are committing to nurturing that human, you know, and like allowing them to grow and chart their own path and be the person they want to be like, that's, that's the kind of parent I want to be someday, too, right? And so I think about that, when I'm teaching kids, it's like, I want you to be the best version of you that you want to be, I don't want to be making those decisions for you, hey, I have some life experience. You know, like, I'm a, I'm an adult that's been around for 35 years. And like, I know the value of math, and I know the value of learning how to read and learning how to write and I want to teach that to you in such a way that it's meaningful and relevant, and you find purpose in it. And to me, that's so central to humanizing learning. You know, it's not that we're ignoring academics. It's not that like, you know, I'm a reading specialist. I spent a ton of time learning how to teach math really well to kids. I believe in standards based assessment. I believe in those things that are kind of the science of teaching. But if we are just using those that science of teaching to continue to serve the testing industrial complex, the standardized testing, you know, I don't know what the word is. Because only expletives are coming to my mind right now, but like, you know, the negatives of standardized testing, right? If we're only using it to serve that, then we are dehumanizing our kids. So you asked the question I know I didn't answer yet. But you asked the question, what does this look like in the classroom? And I sort of alluded to a little little bit already that it's about making learning meaningful and relevant to the individual human being and helping them find purpose in it, right. So a good story here would be, and this is a really concrete tangible example, where when I start I, usually when I start the school year, I do a unit on stories. And partially because I can do I can ask kids the essential question, what's your story and help them, you know, through writing, right, learn to tell their own stories, but we also study stories, you know, in reading, and I like to ask the kids like, Why do you think I want you to learn about stories? Why does this matter? And they say, because you want us to do well, on the tests, the standardized tests, we need to know this for later on. I'm like, Oh, my God, you're eight years old, like, this is so embedded into our culture that you are eight years old? And that's your response. Obviously, don't say that to me. I'm just like, I'm not. You know, at the color sign. Yeah, the culture. Yeah. So I say, you know, that's actually not why. And I said, I want you to be able to do well, on those tests, you know, I want I want you to feel successful, and you take them, but you got to think about what stories are, you know, stories are, stories have been around for 1000s of years, you know, people were telling stories 1000s of years ago, and they were used to pass along generational wisdom. They were used to build community, they were used to entertain, right. Like, we still use stories today. In that way. You know, when you watch a TV show, or you read a good book, or you know, you snuggle up with mom and dad in bed, that is your you're using story to bond like that is story is such a human thing, right. And so, so, frame one, one really easy way to humanize learning is to frame it for them. Like this is why I want you to learn this, this is why I have decided that this is worth our time in class is because stories are a part of being human. And the same thing goes for math, right? Like, I love to start the year off by looking at ancient number systems, in part because it helps them understand our place value system, like the base 10 system. But also because when you show them the Egyptian number system, and you ask them to figure out how they, how they structure, the number system, they're super engaged, like, Oh, this one means 10. This one means they're super engaged in it, because it's like a puzzle to figure out, right? And they realize, eventually, whoa, human beings created this to make sense of quantities. How cool is that? That human beings just came up with this, the way that so many things are taught now we take those those things for granted, we don't realize that the place value system, it's a social construct, right? It's like a, it's something humans made up to make sense of the world around them. And I think that's so central to humanizing learning, right is that is that we're teaching kids things, teaching kids skills, I should say, because we want them to be able to interact with communicate with and make sense of the world around them. And like my, you know, bleeding heart dream is that like, if kids can make sense of the world around them, and they can communicate with it and interact with it, then they can actually be partners in solving a lot of the problems that we face now, that are really scary problems, not that I want to scare kids at eight years old, and like, you know, submerge them in that. But in 10 years and 15 years, I want them to feel like they have the tools needed to interact with and communicate with and, you know, make an impact on the world that, that that helps us all. So that's those are some concrete examples. But I yeah, I'm happy to if you have more questions about more concrete examples, I'm happy to talk more.

Zach Diamond  13:58
No, that's so much. I love that. I mean, there's still a lot I like, and I do want the examples. I want to hear all of it. Honestly, I'm loving this. I I feel like if I were to try and summarize all of this, it would be that it's a matter of priority, right? A matter of kind of why we're doing this, right? Because I think you and I absolutely agree. The things that happen in classrooms are valuable, you know, the whole system isn't exactly broken. But if we're only doing it in service of a standardized test that happens in May, you know, it's like, why? So the system serves itself and it's not useful. It doesn't really, it certainly doesn't humanize our kids that dehumanizes our kids in a lot of ways. And you're right, like, we don't need to put eight year olds to work on the world's most difficult problems, to start giving them the tools that they'll need to work on those difficult problems when they're older. Right when they leave school when they leave college when they're adults. That can be what school is for and that engagement that that that interest in something that's like a puzzle, like you said, or something that just grabs your attention like that. That is humanizing learning. Does that feel to you like a valid summary of what you were trying to get at?

Paul France  15:13
Absolutely, yeah. It's, it's, it's just reaching them on a human level. I mean, when they're when they're engaged in that way, right. Like when it speaks to them. That's what engagement is. Right? Something spoke to me. Yeah. And I'm hooked now.

Zach Diamond  15:26
And that's human, that's humanizing.

Paul France  15:28
Totally, you know, I'm thinking of I mean, I'm thinking of another example, that's not even related to like, you know, I mentioned, like, kind of the historical underpinnings of stories and math, the math, or the place value system, you know, but I'm thinking of other simple things like, like assessment, you know, assessment is so often, What score did I get? What grade did I get? Well, I'm a big fan of journaling. And I'm a big fan of portfolio based assessment. And also we know, we know, the research says that self reflection is more likely to make learning stick, right, it's more likely to make learning meaningful, because what's happening is when kids are self reflecting, they're not just listening to a teacher, say, You're good at this, and you're bad at this and fix this. They're actually having to process the feedback, internalize it, and then articulate like, yeah, this, this was a strength. For me, this was a weakness for me, and here's what I'm going to do next time. You know, and so then internalizing that and processing that is super powerful. But it can go even a step further. And I'm thinking of a student I had, who, you know, when I started the school year with her, she, she would crawl under her desk, and cross her arms sometimes cry when it came time to do a math task. And I was like, okay, so if I was just looking at this from like, an industrialized, sort of like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, you know, lens through that lens, I'd be like, toughen up, kid. Get up, like, the world's tough out there. You know, like, you better get your you know, what, together? That wasn't going to work for her right doesn't work. It doesn't work for our most marginalized learners are the kids, the kids who crawl under their desks and are crying? Right, right. Like, of course, do you think they want to be doing that? No, they don't want their teachers to see them like that they probably feel ashamed when, when after they realize, you know, like what they just did in the classroom. So I knew for her that like getting her to access grade level math content, was actually going to require a social emotional goal first, like I had to help her build her tolerance for uncertainty. And her tolerance for like the discomfort she felt, maybe even the frustration she felt when it came time to do a math task. I mean, her mom told me that she just had a really negative self perception, right? She she did not see yourself as a mathematician, she was also a black student, right. And her mom was really concerned about her being a black girl, and not liking math. Like she was really concerned about that, because they're there. You know, a lot of schools don't do a good job of spotlighting marginalized identities in things like math and science, right? So mom was really concerned about that, and everything. And I was like, Okay, well, we have to, like, get her motivated to engage. And that's not going to happen unless we teach her how to de escalate some of these feelings, you know, anyway, so So we, she and I came up with a plan, she would go get a squishy when she was when she was feeling that stress. And she would have to, she'd have to come back. Like that was part of our agreement, you gotta, you know, regulate and then come back. And then my next My next step with her was help her see that she actually had things to offer here, right? Because she had, I could tell she had a self perception. I don't have anything to offer to this, I suck at math. And so I'm gonna crawl under my desk, and I'm gonna cross my arms because it's more productive than actually trying, right? So I had to take this asset based approach with her and find the things that she could do help her witness those and then use those. And so one day, we were working on a math test that was multiplying by eights, and she was like, I look over at her, I can tell that she's getting dysregulated. She's looking a little forlorn. So I was like, Hey, how you doing? And she was like, Well, I don't know how to multiply by eights. And I was like, Okay, well, first of all, let's talk about how you recognize that this is a multiplication question. That's great. You know that this is asking you to multiply. Some kids in the classroom didn't know that, you know, like, that's, that's a cool thing in and of itself. So I just said, Well, what do you know? And she said, like and count by twos, like another asset, right? She knows that counting by twos to help her multiply by eights. How cool is that? That she knows that right?

Zach Diamond  19:25
I didn't even know that yet.

Paul France  19:26
I mean, you skip count by twos, you get to skip counting by twos. You'll create Nate's pattern, right? She figured that out, right? Like that's telling you procedural fluency, not a strength of hers, conceptual understanding of what multiplication is and the link to skip counting. We got it. This is great. Right? Right. So I was like, Great, let's count by twos. So she counts by twos in her journal. She actually writes it out in circles. The 816 pattern gets up to I think it was 56. And, you know, she's like, I got an answer. This is so cool. And I was like, this is really cool. Will you share this with the class? And that was it. really important part of the way I approach this is that kids share methods, right? And when you have kids share methods, you don't just share the most efficient, most sophisticated, quote unquote best method, you find a an array of methods, right, that are seemingly less sophisticated. Like, do I want all my third graders skip counting to count by eight? No. But do I want them to see it's an option if they're stuck? Absolutely. Right. So she shares her method, she gets all this praise from the class. And then a week later, another student in the class is using that same method. And I witnessed it as they were working in their journals. And so I walked I walked the student over and I was like, I want you to see what someone else is doing. And she looked, and she was like, you know, she could see that that was her method for the week before. And I was like, because you decided to take a risk. And because you use your strengths, someone else in our classroom is able to learn today. I love that. How cool is that? Yeah, that's amazing. And that is so human right to know that I can have an impact on someone else that I can positively influence someone else. I mean, that is that kind of growth, right? is way more valuable than me being able to check the box can multiply seven times eight.

Zach Diamond  21:08
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's, it's like defining the humanity of things here, just in terms of tapping into that very human desire to feel validated and like to be interested. And yes, it's actually kind of simple and fundamental. If you think about it that way. It's like, the stuff that makes us happy is good, right? Like, if we want our kids to feel like they belong in our classrooms, you know, we should plan and structure our classes in ways that make them feel successful, because it's very human, to feel good about feeling successful. And so I love that.

Paul France  21:40
I would take that a step further, though, like, it's yes, it's good to feel successful, it is necessary to be seen, you know, and like, when when we say to kids like that, I mean, there's something as simple as your method, right? Your method is valid, like you what you what you did today, I see the effort you put in today, I see what you tried to do today. And someone else saw what you did today, too, they saw you right, and they actually use what you did, you know, they use based on seeing you they use that to better themselves like that is it is validating and it is, it is feeling good. But it's feeling seen, and that is so important in our classrooms, I think so many kids don't feel seen in school.

Zach Diamond  22:26
Right. And I think that that's why we see a lot of issues with belonging to like, when we my school does lots of surveys, so many surveys, lots and lots of surveys, these belonging surveys. And it's always lower than we would hope, you know, and just it's just like, if the school doesn't, or if the if the teacher or if the class or the just the whole environment doesn't treat the student like a person. It's not like that. It's not a bridge too far for me to understand why they don't feel like they belong. Totally. My next question for you. We've sort of already gotten into this. But I want to I want to ask you a little bit more about this story. Because my next question for you is whether I mean, I hope the answer is yes. And, you know, I'm pretty optimistic generally. But this is something that really does concern me. If if it's possible, to teach in a universally humanizing way for all of our students, when the system is sort of built up to dehumanize them, right? So you're telling the story of this one student, and it's amazing, obviously, it's, it's what we want for this student. But how many other students were in your class? Like, how big was that class?

Paul France  23:31
That class was 22? Kids, I believe? Yeah. And

Zach Diamond  23:35
so like, do you have 22 stories like that for that class? You know, like, if it's personalized learning, and it's humanizing learning? Is it possible to do all this with every kid in our in our, what I would consider to be pretty big classes, especially with the younger kids, you know, like, can you speak to this? Is it really possible to validate them, make them feel seen appreciate the whole human for every single one of those kids? When when the system was kind of set up, to not allow that to happen?

Paul France  24:04
I mean, it's not without barriers, right? And I think I'd be lying. If I said that every single day of every single school year, every single one of your kids is going to feel recognized, validated, like, seen, right. Yeah, I think part of being a teacher is is knowing that you're not going to always get it right, and that you're going to miss some things. And that, you know, I mean, it's like being in relationship with anybody, when you're when you're in, in a romantic relationship and a familial relationship and a friendship, right. Rupture is part of the process. And so you do miss things. But I think it's not about the what's happening on the individual day, or even the individual week, right? It's about what is that arc look like over the course of the year. And for me, that is supported by systems and tools in the classroom that do exactly what I just said with that one student right. So It's the way that we teach the way that we document learning. And what we're using to facilitate those experiences that I think will, will bring that type of experience to all kids, maybe not all on the same day, maybe not all in the same week, but at enough points throughout the year, that school can be a validating experience. I mean, like, for instance, right? I mean, anyone who's taught ever or especially if you've taught little kids, right? When, when, when they all want to share, they're all raising their hand, in some days, you're looking at, you know, a classroom full of kids, and every kid has their hand up in the air, and they all want to share, and what do we say, I really want to hear everything you have to say today, but we just don't have time for everyone to share today, turn and talk to a buddy about what you think, you know, like, there just isn't that it isn't possible for every kid to have the spotlight every day. And likewise, I don't think it's possible for every kid to have that rich of an experience that that student had every day, right. But so in terms of those like systems, in terms of the, you know, practices in terms of the tools, I already mentioned, that I really love journaling, and I love journaling. And I'm not talking about, you know, today I did this, and today yesterday, I did that, and I'm feeling sad today, I'm not talking about that, even though that can be an element of journaling in a classroom, I'm talking about moving away from worksheet based pedagogy, where kids are filling in boxes for right answers, and I'm talking about moving towards open ended tasks that are universally designed. So kids are grappling with the concept, articulating their thinking in writing or in words or in pictures or using numbers of its math, and then actually reflecting on what they're doing. So So if if they, for instance, let's go back to the skip counting method, right, like today, I learned that skip counting works for me to multiply by eight, tomorrow, I'm going to try skip counting again. Right? That is that is a way to personalize learning. That is not me telling the kid what to write down. But that is prompting them to reflect. So that so that they're actually thinking, well, this is my next step, right? It's not sustainable. And this, this goes into my sustainability work. But like, it's not sustainable for me to constantly be doing that for every single kid in the classroom. It's just not I can't get around to 25 kids every day, and tell them what their reflections going to be. I have to teach them a transferable skill, which is in this case, self reflection, so that they can use it to their benefit in the future and so that they can carry some of the load of personalizing their own learning. And that's like really central to my, my take or my theory on Personalized learning is that if we teach them those transferable skills, then they're actually partners in the process of personalizing, and then it makes it more sustainable for me. But it's not just about my own sustainability, it's also about humanizing it. Right? It is more humanizing for them to cultivate that self awareness, and then again, use it to their benefit on their own.

Zach Diamond  28:06
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but she also used her journal to do the skipping by skipping Tuesday, multiply by eight, she did that in her journal, right? Yep. Yeah. So it's like, all there. It's like the whole the whole process is there, including the actual work and the reflection to

Paul France  28:22
Yeah, and here's the thing about it, right. So I just actually did a session on journaling at the annual visible learning conference through Corwin in Orlando. And I actually have a set of journals from one student that that spans the course of an entire year. And it is so cool. To look through those journals, the kids, they get school, they look back and go look what I did in September, and look what I'm doing now. In fact, that student, that same student I was I've been talking about, at the end of the year, she, you know, the kids are, I'm walking around, the kids are looking through their journals and portfolios. And I said, you know, what, do you notice what you see in your work and, you know, feel free to just raise your hand and Sharon, she, of course, she decided to share and she was like, Mr. France, I used to only see the bad things about my work. And now I see the good things about my work. And I was just like, I mean, I was stopped dead in my tracks, because I was like, That is why we do this work in this way. Because it tells a story, right? And you're able to see all those methods, all those self reflections all those like small moments, but they're contextualized, right, in this beautiful arc of learning. And that's what journaling does. And it's once you see it, you're just like, holy cow. Why are we using worksheets? Like, why are we doing this this way, you know, and so that's what makes it possible, though, is stuff like that, where you're teaching transferable skills, you have these sustainable tools, you know, that that make it so kids can, like, tell their story. And that's like, that's so human right, to be able to tell your own story and not be defined by the grade or the three digit map score.

Zach Diamond  29:54
Yeah, this is interesting. I think like, you're right. It's actually not possible to have that kind of an interaction with every kid on every day, obviously, it's not possible. And it's certainly not sustainable, even if it were possible. But it's interested in this approach of sorting, sort of teaching them tools to take on some of that load themselves, you know, like, the independence, the autonomy that comes with learning how to journal, in this case, gives the student the opportunity to, to kind of do this herself on a day when you may be checking in with somebody else, right? I think that to tie this in with modern classrooms, there's a lot of overlap there, because modern classrooms, at least in my experience, has made it possible for my students to work very independently, and to learn, like, I don't need my teacher for this, I can put my own spin on things, I can do this my own way. And I teach music. So they're making, you know, art, like they're making something creative. And I'm really working very hard to sort of break them of the habit of thinking that there is a right way that there's a right answer. It's very, very hard to do that with middle schoolers because they want a right answer, you know, but like, it's human, to enjoy music. And so if you can develop some skills, within the platform that we use to make music, like to create what you hear in your head that you think is good. That's, that's, I think that's what you're getting at to, like with this open ended sort of task, right? In the, in the world of music, obviously, it's, it's a lot. It's, it's, you know, the whole entire thing is open ended, because it's, it's a song, but there's just so much to respond to here. I feel like I have so much to say. And definitely, definitely, I'm, I'm taking so much from this. I want to move on my next question for you gets into a little bit more of how we manage this in the classroom. I'm wondering how you approach the need to balance this humanizing approach to teaching this personalized learning and approach to teaching with the need to set limits and boundaries in the classroom, you know, we were talking about these huge classes, right. And so we're, we're doing this personalizing work, we're doing this, but we also need to teach our students how to be like productive humans, and how to be respectful to each other. So it's not just a matter of letting them do whatever makes them feel good, right? Because especially with younger kids that can devolve quickly into actual chaos. And no real learning happens, or worse. So, you know, on this podcast, we often talk about controlled chaos. And the idea of control feels a little bit contentious to me with the idea of of humanizing, teaching and personalized teaching. But there does need to be some degree of control because like you said, we are working in the reality that we're in right now, this is this is how we, this is how things are. So I'd like to hear you speak a little bit about how we can control that chaos, and how we can allow our students to kind of be their authentic selves, and foster their learning while still respecting their individual humanity, while also controlling the chaos.

Paul France  32:49
Yeah, I mean, I think reframe the word control might be structure. If we think about this through a trauma informed lens, we see very easily that chaos is actually traumatic, you know, and it can be, can be for even kids who don't, maybe don't have significant, you know, capital T traumas, but that the opposite structure is very healing, right? For people to feel safe. They need a sense of predictability of ritual, not predictability, that like you know exactly what's going to happen, right, but that you have an idea of what's going to happen. And if you think about the opposite, right, when you're constantly unaware of what's going to happen, there isn't that sense of predictability or reliability, it makes sense why people would feel unsafe, because so much of your cognitive bandwidth is going towards trying to anticipate what's going to happen, you know, whereas what we want kids focus on is like the learning, we want them to grapple with uncertainty, right? We want them to be able to, you know, pivot and be flexible. But structure in the classroom provides that sense of psychological safety. And so that's the way I think about it, right? Humans look for structure, they look for patterns, they, we have a whole society based on social norms, right? Our whole society is based on social norms. Like we look for that. And so it's actually really natural to embed that into our classrooms. And I think anyone who has like, loosened the reins too much sees what happens when you don't have that structure, right? Kids are off the walls. And it's not because they're having a good time. It's because they're actually just not sure what to do. And they, they're looking for that sense of safety. Right? So I think that's like first and foremost, like, let's reframe it as structure because structure is very healing and structure actually counteracts the trauma that chaos brings. And so when you go into that mentality, it's like, oh, I'm actually doing what's best for kids when I when I have structure my classroom and when I have boundaries, think boundaries is another really like affirming, humanizing word. Because boundaries, boundaries keep us safe and boundaries of the way that we respect other people too, right? Like someone told me this recently they said, anger. I didn't I never thought of it this way. If you if you think about what anger actually is, anger is a boundary crossing, when someone has crossed your boundary, like that's what makes us angry is oh, I set this boundary with you and you crossed it like, like I told you not to, or I asked you not to, like walk in my house with shoes on and you did it anyway. And now I'm angry, you crossed my boundary. So like boundaries in the classroom too, are preventing us from getting into those like really angry spaces, right? It's teaching us how to respect one another. I think the way you do that, right in a way that's humanizing is and invites kids into the process as you start your school year with CO constructing classroom agreements, right? Because when the kids have voice, and the kids are gonna say all the things that you want them to say, for the most part, right? And if they don't, you can ask the questions. And well what about this scenario, and then ask them to come up with a, you know, an agreement for that, when you bring them into that? And their voices in that? It's one it's, it's better, because then you can be like, Hey, you guys, you guys decided these roles, not me, you guys decide to them. But it's also better for them, because then you know, they have a hand in it, they understand they're going to internalize them more if they've had a hand and actually saying what those are. So that's I would start the year that way. But then also, you use your classroom, your class meetings, or you use you know, the first 10 minutes of class, if you're interviewing middle school, I know it's time is very precious in middle school, or use homeroom, right? Talk about issues that arise over the course of a school year. I know I mentioned before, that being in relationship with anybody results in some rupture, right. And it requires repair. So when those things happen, where like kids are violating agreements, or you have these unexpected behaviors that you didn't anticipate with your initial classroom agreements, it's such great, it's such a great topic for a class meeting, like, hey, this happened this week. And it was really chaotic yesterday, and let's talk about why it was chaotic. And, and let's talk about how you felt in that chaos. And then let's come up with some solutions so that we can, so we don't get into that chaotic space, where, you know, everyone's feeling uncertain about what's happening. And I think just bringing kids into those conversations about what the boundaries are, you know, how you as the teacher are going to enforce the boundaries, what are the natural consequences of those bounds of boundaries being crossed, it makes it so it's okay to have the boundaries. And it also makes it so that it's okay for you as the teacher to, you know, for lack of a better term control the chaos? Does that make sense?

Zach Diamond  37:17
Yeah, it does. And I also think, like, it's important, in my experience, it's important to remember that those conversations don't then like, solve the problem. And now it's over. Yeah, we continue having that. And that becomes the norm, right? When there is a breach of a boundary or when a boundary is crossed, we will have this discussion, it's not exactly a consequence. It's just that like, these things don't go unaddressed. And I really liked the idea also of, of shifting the mindset from control to structure, I think that it's important to remember, like structure is not all 25 students sitting compliantly. And silently, totally right. There can be more movement than that. And I think that that's where this idea of controlled chaos, and I'm making quotes with my fingers, right? Where this idea of controlled chaos comes from when we talk about it, because certainly in a modern classroom, but I think just also in any strong classroom where learning is happening. It's not the teacher talking to a bunch of compliant children. You know, it's there's more movement, there's more talking, there's more noise, there's stuff happening, you know, it can cross a line, and I guess, cross a boundary and it can become too much things can happen in classrooms. And we need to address those things. But I like this idea of putting the structure in place sort of around them and creating norms, where boundaries are being set boundaries are being respected. And when they're crossed, we address that. But but also learning is happening. Totally, that that is humanizing, that is humanizing. Yeah,

Paul France  38:50
there's something else you said, too. And I'm only going to say this because I feel like other people might be thinking it too. You said consequence, and you're like, not that that that there needs to be a consequence. I think sometimes you said something to that effect. Sometimes we frame the word consequences and negative thing. But when you look at that word, and I'm such a word nerd, by the way, like it's kind of, it's kind of annoying sometimes. But I we look at the word consequence. It's made up of a CLN prefix, and then the word sequence, right? So it really means with sequence, it's the result of something happening. And it's here consequence in schools. And they go Oh, consequences a bad thing. And that's one of the first things I do with my kids to I talk about what a consequence actually is, and that there are actually positive consequences. And there's negative consequences. So like, there are good consequences when you when you operate within the boundaries that we set in our classroom, like what are all the good things that went really good consequences that happen when you operate within those agreements? You know, it's like sure people are able to learn, you get time to chat with your friends, like I can trust you to go do a project without me hovering over For you, these are all amazing things that you all want. That can happen if we all operate within our classroom agreements. Now, there are also negative consequences or unpleasant consequences, you know. So that reframing of the word consequence, I feel like it's so powerful with kids. And it's important to discuss as you're creating your classroom agreements.

Zach Diamond  40:19
Totally. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I guess what I meant when I said that was that this conversation is not like a punishment. It's not like we're reprimanding the kids. It's more like we're inviting them into a conversation about why it's important not to cross each other's boundaries. But I love that, like, it's certainly it's not a punishment, it's not that kind of consequence. It is the consequence, though, of of this happening. And if we can norm on that, then they'll start to realize like, Oh, these boundaries? Obviously, they're not physical walls or barriers, right? But they are tangible. They're there. Like, they'll, they'll learn them. And it doesn't, I really want to emphasize because I remember as a younger teacher, being like, Okay, you have a conversation with them, and then they'll be they'll behave for the rest of the year, like, but no, of course, that's not how it works. Like it's it has to become a norm. Absolutely. It's, it's an ongoing process. So I want to ask you specifically about modern classrooms. I'm curious, you're familiar with the model. So what value do you see in this model? With regards to humanizing teaching, I personally see all the value. I think that any listener to this podcast, who has heard me on like any episode ever, will, will have heard me go on and on about this. There are some specific episodes where I really dug into this with people. But my personal thing is like, relationship building with the kids, we were talking about standardized testing, and it like it, it actually breaks my heart, when they have to hand me their drawing to be shredded, looks like the most unbearable thing that I have to do. I can't help but see these kids as people. And I think that the modern classrooms model has allowed me the sort of time and space and bandwidth as a teacher to treat them that way. You know, some days, they might not be able to learn, they might want to talk to me about something completely different. And I can do that for them. And I again, like this is a one time thing, it doesn't mean that I'll do it every single day with them. But they know that I can do that. And that's because of the self paced model, where I'm not lecturing to them. You know, me personally, I think that it, hopefully I'm doing an okay job of summarizing this. But this is my biggest reason for never going back to traditional teaching. So I'm curious to hear what you have to say, you know, from your perspective, about the model, because I really, really do think that it's very value valuable in how we humanize our teaching practices and how we personalized learning. But I would love to hear from you.

Paul France  42:49
Yeah, I mean, I'll definitely second what you're saying about relationship based teaching. I think you said it very well. So I don't have I don't have too much to add there. But I, I guess what I want to talk about or what what comes to mind, for me, is kind of the or what, what tends to be, I think, a more like clinical side to this conversation, which is the idea of like assessment, and mastery, right? Because modern classrooms is a mastery based model, right? It's a self, it's self paced. And the idea is that like, you know, kids master different things on different timelines, right. And so first of all, that's really affirming from a humanize of humanizing standpoint or humanization. standpoint, yes, for kids to be able to do things on their own time, right, that's giving them agency and that's, that's giving them the like, the dignity they deserve in the classroom.

Zach Diamond  43:41
It's sort of the opposite of that industrial approach, right? Where you all do the same thing at the same time.

Paul France  43:45
Totally. And I think there's a caveat there, which I talked about when I, I just did some webinars with modern classrooms. And we talked about, you know, moving from a culture of work to a culture of learning, and that when you self paced in the classroom, right, it can't be that everyone's just kind of like a workhorse going through their checklist at different rates, you know, it has to be that like, there's be a purpose behind the pace, the self pacing, you know, there has to be those humanizing practices like self reflection in there that actually get kids internalizing feedback. But this idea of mastery is so important, right? But then if we think about what mastery actually is, in education, we have this bad habit of reducing things down to the point where it's, it does become dehumanizing. And like a lot of times we define mastery as checking the box, you know, like, yeah, okay, you got six questions correct for adding multi digit numbers with the standard algorithm. And so now you've mastered this, that's actually not what mastery is. That is that as as checking the box, they got six problems, right. If we call upon Daniel Pink's, he wrote the book drive, which is all about intrinsic motivation. We call upon his definition of mastery. Right? Mastery is the ability to connect to connect one's efforts. with one's progress. So I know that I did X, Y, and Z. And it helped me grow in a, b and c way. That is what mastery actually is. And that's why self reflection is so important, right? I want kids to go, oh, that skip counting method I used, it really helped me multiply multi digit numbers today. So I'm going to use that again tomorrow. That is what mastery is. And so I love that modern classrooms has a mastery based self pacing method because, or self pacing model, because you're able to then have those conversations with kids. And so that sort of plugs into what you're saying with relationship based, but it also plugs into how we humanize assessment, humanizing assessment doesn't mean we tabulate or the opposite of humanizing assessment is just counting the points and giving them a score. When we humanize assessment, we go, let's look at this problem you did today. And let's talk about what strategies you use that help you grow as a learner today. And you can do that through relationship based model, you can do that through a self paced model that is mastery driven, because you can then have those conversations because you have the time to write because kids are working on their own while you're able to engage in those great conversations with kids.

Zach Diamond  46:11
Yeah, and you can also change the assessment based on each kid because they're not all doing it at the exact same time necessarily, although they could be, that wouldn't be wrong, you know, in a modern classroom, but like I don't, sometimes I have a process for having students submit their work to me. And sometimes it's okay for me to just walk over and look at the student screen. And I can say, Oh, look, you did it. Right. Here's your check, you mastered this, I love that definition of mastery, because it's like, learning from the past what works, and applying that to the future, and then adjusting as needed. I really liked that a lot. In a class like mine that is very open ended, that's really valuable. I find that giving students sort of very concrete things that they can basically copy, for me, very basic, sort of fundamental aspects of of songs of music, they'll copy me and then they can run from there and do their own thing. But like, I can give them the basics. And then they can use those basics throughout the year. As as a sort of foundation to build on top of, I guess something that I also want to say, I've been meaning to say this for this whole episode. I'm not exactly sure that it's gonna fit in here. But I teach a class that is not on the test. So yeah, it's it's an interesting perspective, because in some ways, our classes are not a very high priority in the world of education, but it's like, if we're talking about humanizing practices, a student's love music, I can't think of a word that more emphasizes their feelings for music, like the students live with music, we can't get them to stop wearing their headphones. Music is such a big part of our students lives. And what you were seeing a long time ago about this focus on the standardized test, you know, and the, the sort of like industrial approach to teaching doesn't allow a course like that, to fit in, which is weird, because music is so central to people's lives, you know, and I don't say that, because I mean, obviously, I'm a music teacher, I'm biased, right? But like, I see it, I see it in my students, and I want my class to tap into that, and certainly not like, exist in opposition to that, which I know some my music classes when I was a kid did I remember sitting in, like, record our class with 44th graders? And just being like, this is actually the worst? Yeah, you know, but it's so it's interesting, like, I see, I see it from that perspective. But I also have a lot of freedom in my class to try out these things. And I think that, like, I wish that more classes could could have that pressure removed. Because when you take off the pressure to succeed on the test in May, there's more leeway. And there's more sort of freedom to just exist in the classroom, create a little community, enjoy yourself, sometimes maybe have an off topic conversation, which seems like it's something that's totally forbidden in school, you know, but yeah, but it's sometimes like, I don't know, a student had a thing happened at lunch, and they want to decompress, and they can't learn yet. And so being able to sort of take them and say, okay, look, it's fine. Like, take a minute, you're fine. I'm not gonna push you right now. The pressure is not on me to succeed in May, you know what I mean? Obviously, I'm going to push them to succeed on their songs, and I want them to make good music. But I sometimes I wish that more classes could have that experience.

Paul France  49:33
Or here's the thing though, they can write, they can have those experiences, but you have to change the way that you that you assess right like and you have to change the tool you use, which is again why I love journaling so much because I can still teach in a very standards driven way. I can still use backward design, I can still design assessments that give me the information I need to inform instruction and that will simultaneously humanize learning and as much as I hate it helped me teach toward is the you know, metrics we're all forced to live within? Yeah. So there is there are ways to do it. There really aren't.

Zach Diamond  50:05
Yeah, no, sorry. Thank you for for clarifying that. I didn't mean to say that there weren't that like math and English teachers couldn't do it. But they do have the test. Right. And I don't. And I feel like, I don't have the pressure on me that I imagine a math or English teacher would.

Paul France  50:22
Yeah, I mean, it's different pressures, right? Like, you're probably worried about your program getting cut, sometimes. I don't know, maybe you are, maybe I don't know, your school. But like, that's a very real, like, I have to, with this new book, I wrote, I talked to so many teachers about, like, what's sustainable, what's unsustainable. And I, I talked to a lot of special area teachers, a lot of them were like, I have so many kids, you know, I see every kid in the school. And like, that's really hard. And it's a lot of pressure, and it's sometimes unsustainable. And then a lot of them were saying, like, especially those in fine arts were like, you know, I'm worried about my program getting cut, or like, you know, I'm halftime at this school and halftime at this school, and it's so hard. And so it's like, you guys have different pressures. I think that then Gen Ed, or like, you know, really academic teachers do just want to like, validate that you like you have pressures do, they may not be the standardized tests, but you know, you guys have things you're working against as well.

Zach Diamond  51:16
That's definitely true. Yeah. I don't know, I guess, like, my next question for you is what you hope to see in the future and what goals you have. And that could be for yourself personally. But I, I think that what's happening to me right now is that I'm sort of like, whenever I think are talking about this stuff, I get into this mind set of like, something big has to change. You know, like, there's lots of great things happening in schools. And in a lot of ways, schools are completely messed up, like the whole system feels like it's broken sometimes. And so there's lots to talk about, obviously, we could keep going forever here. But like, you know, what does an ideal future look like? And I obviously don't know the answer, and I don't think anybody does, right. But it sometimes feels to me, like something has to change. But I guess let me turn it back over to you, and ask you what you hope to see in the future and what goals you have?

Paul France  52:05
Yeah, I mean, in doing this sustainable teaching research, like I, I, I did come to that same idea, right, that this does feel so systemic, and it feels so much of it feels outside of my control, or anyone's Can anyone individuals control. And it is right, like you, one person can't just burn down a whole system overnight and not harm anybody in the process, right? It actually burning the system down is not a sustainable solution, it would cause more harm than good. And I do believe that, you know, change is a mix of, I think of I think I've changed like ripples, you know, it's like, you can have one little ripple and it'll it'll eventually span out through throughout the whole lake, you know, the whole pond. But when you have a lot of ripples, or you have a lot of little wind that turns into a bigger wind, it actually can result in some pretty significant change. And so my my hope, is that people start having the difficult conversations about sustainability that we need to have in schools, like I agree that that it's a systemic problem, but but we're not going to solve the problem overnight by burning the system down, right, that's going to cause more harm than good. But what we can do is find what's within our respective low sigh of control, and try and make incremental shifts that work towards sustainability. But that's not going to happen until we have the difficult conversations about what would make teaching more sustainable. And that's what I hope that people will get out of the book that's coming out very soon, called make teaching sustainable. The book is structured on six mindset shifts. And those mindset shifts are, are first meant to prompt teachers and administrators and coaches, to think about how we're thinking about learning. And then in there in the book, there's also some practices as well, for like, pedagogical shifts. But what I hope is that people engage in those hard conversations. They don't say it's hopeless, they say, actually, you know, we can make some incremental shifts that might make teaching slightly more sustainable this year. And I think that will make a big difference, again, with the understanding that sustainable Teaching isn't just about teachers working less, or their jobs being easier, but it's shifts that teachers have voiced that they want, but they're also really good for students. And a lot of these things are part of the modern classrooms model as well. Yeah,

Zach Diamond  54:31
absolutely. And I love that idea of sustainable teaching, not necessarily reducing the workload or making it easier, quote, unquote, but we teachers derive joy from teaching our students and from having them learn with us, you know, and so, that does make the job more sustainable because it's, it's just more fun. And we're treating our students like the human beings they are, you know, we're not treating them like a some sort of product on a factory industrial you conveyor belt. So, anyway, well, this stuff gets me all worked up like I really, really this is matters a lot to me. And I hope that I've done an okay job. articulating that and you've done an amazing job, like everything you said has just resonated with me so much, Paul. So thank you for, for all of this. I've really enjoyed this conversation. How can our listeners connect with you?

Paul France  55:25
Yeah, so you can visit my website, make teaching sustainable.org. I'm on Instagram and Twitter, at sustain teaching. that's all one word sustained teaching. Those are the best ways to connect with me. I love hearing from folks. So you can also email me at Paul at make teaching sustainable.org If you want to get in contact and also like I'd love it, if you picked up the book make teaching sustainable. That's going to give you just more of my ideas on what I think we need to do based on the research that I did. And yeah, that's how people can can get in touch.

Zach Diamond  55:59
I'll be picking that book up, for sure. Well, again, Paul, thank you so much. This has been amazing. You listeners. Remember, you can always email us at podcast@modernclassrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast dot modern classrooms.org/151. We'll have this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the monitor classrooms blog on Friday. So be sure to check there or check back in the show notes for this episode if you'd like to access those. And of course, thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work atwww.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our muddle through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj that's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.


Transcribed by https://otter.ai