Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the modern classrooms project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the modern classrooms project podcast. Toni Rose Deanon 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode 128 of the modern classrooms project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, she/they pronouns Community Engagement Manager here at MCP and I am joined today by an anti bias and anti racist nationally recognized educator and author who also happens to be a really close friend of mine, Liz Kleinrock. Welcome, Liz. Liz Kleinrock 0:48 Hey, Toni Rose I'm so happy to be talking to you today. Oh, I miss you. Toni Rose Deanon 0:54 I miss you so much. And it's so exciting to be in this space and any space actually, physically, virtually, with you. And so thank you. Thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. And so before we get started, what's bringing you joy lately? Liz Kleinrock 1:08 Oh, god. Okay, so we, my my partner and I kind of semi adopted an alley cat that we had just been like informally feeding for the past couple of months when we saw him and then it got really, really cold here back in December, like dropped down to single digits. And we're like, I'll just take him in for one night. I'll sleep in the basement and now like he has a collar and I just spent a silly amount of money on him at the vet getting him all vaccinated and stuff. So we kind of had Toni Rose Deanon 1:38 you know, I've actually really enjoyed this journey for you on your social media. I was like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe you have a cat. How are your rabbits? Your bunnies? Like? How are they adjusting? Liz Kleinrock 1:49 They're just like, you know, they just range from like, mildly salty to like extremely salty throughout any random day, so it's really no change for them. Toni Rose Deanon 2:00 That's amazing. What is your alleycats name? Liz Kleinrock 2:03 Bruce, his name is Bruce. Oh, Toni Rose Deanon 2:07 I like that. That's actually really cute. I love it when animals have human names. Liz Kleinrock 2:14 I was not thinking about it really? When I named him because I was just giving the Alleycat and passing a name. Now I'm like, I should have maybe been more intentional, but I like Bruce it suits him. Toni Rose Deanon 2:25 God, okay, well, let's tell us more about who you are and how you started your a bar education journey. Liz Kleinrock 2:33 Alright, so my name is Liz, my pronouns are she her? I joke that when I introduce myself, there's like a mouthful of identifiers. So I am a transracial adoptee, you're not familiar with the term transracial it means that I am of one race, I was adopted into a family of another race. I was born in Korea. So I am Korean and Korean American, my family's Jewish, I identify as queer, so many things. And how I got started on this journey, definitely, I don't know, by accident. It's been a lot of very serendipitous events. And I have an enormous amount of gratitude to folks in my community and my mentors, friends and colleagues, for folks who have really supported me and pushed me on this in this direction. But anti bias and anti racism or a bar was really not something that I ever heard of growing up. It's not something I think many of us were ever exposed to. I actually began in education really focusing on social emotional learning. And from there, recognize that there was so much cultural bias wrapped up and what we talk about when it comes to SEL, the types of expectations we have on our students, especially when we have kids from different countries, different cultural backgrounds coming together under this very white dominant educational system. And from there really expanded a lot of this work to look at different types of biases to examine inequality, different forms of systemic oppression and racism in our society. So it's really just grown from there. And at this point, I have now taught kindergarten through sixth grades. I have been a librarian I've been in different schools Offices of equity inclusion, and now I write and I consult and facilitate about this. So fortunately, I don't think I have like an elevator pitch or what I do have my hands on a lot of different things. Toni Rose Deanon 4:25 And I think that's a beautiful thing about you too, Liz, I know that you taught me definitely the word transracial. And because I was like I just was never aware. And so I just love all of your stories. And I'm just so glad that you are in my circle and just learning from you has been so impactful in my own journey. And so I'm really excited for our listeners to just kind of get a glimpse of who you are and what you do and and I know that they're gonna have some great takeaways from you as well. And so, you know, this month theme in our modern classrooms community is supporting all learners, and I immediately, of course thought of having you as a guest. And so typically when we say all learners, right, when we say supporting all learners, we typically think about labels that our learners have, like IPs, fiber fours English learners, and never really thought about their identities, right, never really about their cultural identities. And so today's topic specifically is culturally responsive teaching. And so first of all, what is your definition of culturally responsive and sustaining teaching? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what that means, and a lot of fear that goes along with that as well. Liz Kleinrock 5:31 That is so incredibly true. I was actually doing a presentation for a very large international company recently, and their topic that they wanted was cultural sensitivity. And so first, we had to really dive into unpack what are the differences between all of these terms? So talking about cultural sensitivity, which is really just as it sounds in the name being sensitive to different cultures, thinking about just what do I know about people of different backgrounds and identities? And from there trying to move that needle a little bit towards cultural competence, thinking more about, like, how do I actually act? How do I show up from there jumping to cultural responsiveness, thinking about how are we actually leveraging strengths and assets of individuals due to their cultures and identities. And from there, moving the needle even further towards culturally sustaining practices, thinking about how companies, schools all over have these initiatives about, you know, we need to, like recruit and hire more folks of color, like people of different cultural backgrounds. But there's nothing about actually supporting people so that they if they thrive, what are we going to do to actually nourish folks across culture, in our communities, and from there, just really trying to develop critical consciousness as much as possible? So I also just wanted to note that many of these terms that I just said, are used interchangeably and synonymously. But they mean really different things. That answer your question, I feel like I just went on a tangent. Toni Rose Deanon 6:57 No, that's actually that was really great, because I was just writing notes down because cultural sensitivity, that is something that I have not come across. And so I really liked this ladder that you've created, right? Like, hey, becoming sensitive to the different cultural differences here. And then we do our, you know, the cultural responsiveness. And then this is the sustaining part, right? Something that I know, like I used to work at an independent school is something that we talk about at that independent school is like, yes, we want to hire and recruit educators of color, but we cannot retain them. So how can we retain educators of color and so I think I really liked this, this conversation that you've brought up to of just like, okay, these are all great stuff. But then really, ultimately, we need to keep it moving forward as far as like supporting and retaining our communities of color, wherever that may be, right? Students, teachers, adults, whatever. And so who that was great, Thanks, Liz. Liz Kleinrock 7:47 Oh, can I note one more thing also? Yeah, but I think the the piece around like being responsive to your community, I think in education, we struggle a lot with this, because there are so many pieces of education that are standardized, even, you know, from standardized testing down to well, I'm just going to reuse this exact worksheet or lesson plan that I created last year, in the year before I don't want and I get that like, as someone who's been in education for 13 years, it's exhausting to have to recreate from scratch, like every single year. And we also have to remember that the moment we begin to standardize what we do, we are no longer being responsive to the people in front of us. So how do we also like hold space for that? That nuance, you know, Toni Rose Deanon 8:27 yeah, that's a that's a really good thought. And then something that came up for me with the responsiveness is also that white savior complex, right, of like, Oh, I'm gonna respond, because I think I know what they need. And like coming up with all of these, like misconceptions, or rather just playing by assumptions and stereotypes, and so I think we really also need to be careful with that. And it's not just like white folks who have this white superior complement our white savior complex, but it's also it could be people of color, who also think the same way. So I think just, again, recognizing that like when we think about responsiveness really elevating the communities and what they need, and not what we think they need. Liz Kleinrock 9:09 Absolutely. And like as a person of color, I've definitely been guilty about that and have had to check myself not only like when I started teaching primarily in, you know, black and brown communities serving black and brown kids, thinking about, you know, what actually drives me to work with this particular community and like, what do I really need to unpack here before I start, you know, running my mouth about you know, like so many teachers I'm here to like save kids I you know, I want to help kids. But so often we make these really biased assumptions about what we think kids need, specially based on their, you know, gender identity, their racial identity, things like that. So it comes up in so many ways, including, you know, I made a post recently was talking to some teachers about the pride that a lot of teachers I think, feel across all identities about Being able to claim, well, I'm the only person in my school who cares about anti racism work. And that like, makes us feel like, oh, I can give myself like a pat on the back. And it also gives us kind of a superiority complex, and I'm better than everybody else. But the thing is, like, if you truly are the only person in your school community doing this type of work, or teaching with this lens, and then you leave your school, and then it all falls apart, you've made very little impact, like, what is actually the legacy going to be of your work? How are you going to then build capacity to really shift culture? So even if, you know, you have like a director of Dei, and that person gets replaced, or they leave that everything isn't going to fall apart, too? Toni Rose Deanon 10:39 Huh? Yeah, I definitely resonate with that whole pride piece, right. And even in this journey, I mean, like, You've known me now, since like, 2018 19, one of those lives, and I think, like, I'm learning so much, and I still mess up. And it's you all the time. It's, it's part of the process, right? Like, and it was really uncomfortable for me to face like, all the mistakes that I've made in the past, and even the mistakes that I continue to do, because I just don't know any better. But I think I've just gotten so much better at sitting with that discomfort of like, oh, girl, you messed up, you're gonna fix this. Liz Kleinrock 11:18 I know, dude, I had a mistake. Actually. I'm getting off topic. I made like a bias mistake. Last week. I was at a spin class. This guy who works at the studio, super, super nice, like really, really friendly. I asked him how he was doing like how his year has been going so far. Told me like he recently graduated from college. Like, he was really excited about this. And I recommended a book to him about you know, just like navigating once you get out of school, and you're in your 20s. And he was like, Oh, actually, like, I'm like, that's funny. You think I look younger? A lot of people do. I'm actually 30. And then I was like, gosh, like, a Yes. Like this, you did look really, really young. But I'm like, crap, like this was also like a fairly ageist assumption, too. And so like, I took like, 10 steps, and then ran back and was like, that was kind of a just, I'm really, really sorry, I didn't like, you know, obviously, my intention was not to say X, Y, or Z, if it impact if I impacted you in this way. Like, I'm really sorry. I think he was a little taken aback. He was like, No, I thought was kind of funny. It's all good. But to me, like that was an awareness gap that I needed to check myself in. And I knew, also, if I didn't apologize and own up to it, then it would probably haunt me for like the days to come. But yeah, we're all on this journey of learning and unlearning. And I think for folks, who are, you know, averse to mistake making, as many of us are, you know, that's just going to be a natural part of this, and it's going to happen, and the sooner you accept that, and hopefully, you'll be able to turn them into teachable moments and be able to learn something out of it. I think that's the most important part. Toni Rose Deanon 12:54 Yeah. And I think, you know, even if it's like, oh, my gosh, a day later, or something like, especially if it's a friend or someone that you've had contact with, and you realize that there was something that could have been taken the wrong way. I know. For me, it was really uncomfortable for me to apologize, first of all, because I, I need to work on apologize. But just saying like, Oh, I'm so sorry, I realized that this came out as blank. And so I think just like naming that and acknowledging it, and it really does. Like you said, like, sometimes people are just shocked by the fact that you've recognized it. But it also like validates like, oh, okay, like that did happen. Because sometimes people don't have the words to articulate what exactly happened. They just felt like something didn't feel right. I know, that was for me a lot of the times. So self correction goes a long way. Yeah. Okay. So what are the benefits of culturally responsive culturally, sustaining teaching? How does that benefit our students and not just our students, but really our whole community? Liz Kleinrock 13:55 I talk a lot about the difference between representation and affirmation. And I feel like this question definitely ties to that piece. So understanding that the people in front of you, if you are a classroom teacher, every single year are going to be different. And maybe if you teach middle or high school, then every class period, there's going to be a different group of kids in front of you. Being able to actually respond to folks in a way that makes them feel seen and affirmed, rather than just us putting our assumptions about who people are and what we think is best for them. For the sustaining piece. That makes me think of, you know, this question of what can we do to ensure that our schools and our classrooms are places where students actively want to come every single day because that like just like the return, like the, you know, teacher staff retention piece is the same thing for our students, that maybe we are trying to recruit black and brown kids and oftentimes, it's not for the best purposes if it's for like boosting diversity numbers or whatnot or, you know, free and reduced lunch enrollment, but really trying to think of out what we can do to create a community that will sustain itself, where people where stakeholders are invested, who want to show up that we can think about power being distributed in really, really different ways where kids actually have a sense of agency and autonomy and their own learning. Those are the, I think, are the benefits of how I see things, though I know, especially these days in this political landscape, that is the exact opposite of what a lot of other folks are trying to go for. Toni Rose Deanon 15:29 Yeah, and that's just, it's such a sad thing that's happening now. But I really liked that you said, you know, it's a space where everybody wants to come to every day, right? I think there's that psychological safety, that needs to happen. And then also, there's this conversation or this shift, really from providing a safe space and, and providing a brave space, I know, something that you and I've talked about, too, is that we can't really guarantee a safe space. Because everybody has different triggers, right. But creating a space where anybody who's involved feels that they can advocate for themselves feels that they can speak up when something is happening is really, really important. And I guess, and and you know, with that, I think it is, like you said, just creating that community, where we want to come every day, I feel like that's such a beautiful thing that I think a lot of maybe our black and brown kids are not experiencing right now, or even our black and brown teachers are not experiencing right now. So really taking a step back and figuring out, like you said, how to distribute that power. But that's also like a whole conversation was about power. Liz Kleinrock 16:35 We'll have another episode. Toni Rose Deanon 16:40 So thank you for that. So it's something that I've always loved about me and you and our friendship is that we're both Asian and queer. And of course, there's so many other layers to identities that we haven't even touched. But that commonality, that similarity, I knew that I was drawn in to your energy, like, I just loved everything about your being. And so I think I can speak for both of us that we grew up with hardly any representation, right? You mentioned representation versus affirmation. And so in any of the classrooms that we were in, so I know, for me, I wanted to become a teacher, because I didn't have a teacher who looked like me, nor did my education journey ever mentioned, the Filipino experience or history and so, and anything queer in South Georgia, like forget about it, that was never mentioned. So clearly, everything who like everything that made up me was just invalidated and not really acknowledged at all. And so let's talk about representation and why it matters, because I have a lot to say, and you'll probably be able to articulate it so much better than I would. Liz Kleinrock 17:42 Okay, so I'm just gonna give you a bit from you've probably heard me talk about this before, but it's something I talk a lot about in different sessions that I do a brown this piece of, you know, affirmation versus representation, that a couple of years ago, when I was living in LA, I heard Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum speak. And she gave this example like we're all in this big lecture hall. And if folks don't know, she is a really amazing researcher, educator activist, she wrote the book, Why are all the Black Kids Sitting Together in the cafeteria, but she asked the audience like to imagine that there's a photographer, who takes a whole group picture of everybody sitting in this auditorium. And everybody gets a copy of this photo. And that very naturally, when you get your photograph, the first thing you're going to look for is yourself. That is the representation piece. Do I even see myself here? And then when we look closer, very naturally, we go to well, how do I look in this picture? Like what I posted on Instagram, or am I like sneezing and you know, when I was close and stuff like that, and so that's the affirmation piece is not just Am I present, but how am I being represented? Am I being represented in a way that allows me to see myself and connect to other people who share my identifiers? Or is it stereotypical, is that only routed through a lens of injustice and oppression? Am I just solely viewed as a victim of circumstance? And so when I think about my identity growing up, how like I would like grasping at string is like, Whatever, whatever I could take. If it was Claudia Kishi Trini, the yellow Power Ranger, you know, mystery files of Shelby will anything that had an Asian female character, I was I was in like Mulan, like, and I'm Korean. And the characters I just listed are what Japanese Vietnamese find us. Like, I know ethnicities that I don't belong to. But that's all I had. And looking at the intersection of like Asian and queerness. I think Margaret Cho was like a little ahead of my time. So like the comedy that she was doing, like her show, her presence wasn't something that I was super aware of also, because I was raised in a heteronormative household too, with too lightweight presenting parents. So like queer Asian culture was not something that was really brought into our home. I'm and realizing that because I do have a lot of uniqueness at the intersections of who I am. Sometimes you just have to go out and write the story yourself instead of waiting around for somebody to do it for you. When I get the question like, you know, when was the first time you saw yourself represented in a book, I have yet to see that. So I'm writing in instead, like, I'm tired of sitting around and waiting for that to happen. And I think so often, if you have, you know, an identity that has been historically marginalized, you are constantly waiting for that invitation instead of understanding that you do possess the power to go out and tell that story on your own. So representation, I think, could not be more important, especially as we've you know, had all of these very mainstream conversations about you know, struggling with impostor syndrome. My wonderful therapists has reminded me that it's even more important for folks like us to get out there to tell our stories to talk about why this sort of affirmation is so important, because with every additional narrative we add to this tapestry of who our community is, we have the opportunity to reduce impostor syndrome, because we've just been able to expand his understanding of what is possible, and you know, what our community actually looks like? Toni Rose Deanon 21:21 Oh, my goodness, Liz. I, you're just such an inspiration. And I just, oh my god, I love everything that comes out of your mouth. Because it's funny that you mentioned yellow Power Ranger, I feel like every Asian memoir that I've read mentions this yellow Power Ranger. And it's so true, because that was me too. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, she's Asian. That's so dope. And then also Mulan, but like, also the problematic. Like, ah, but that was like, all we had, right. And, I mean, like you stating to like, ethnically that wasn't like, that, wasn't you? Right. And that was for me as well. Like, there wasn't a lot of Filipino representation. I mean, an even like, growing up in a Filipino household, like, very heteronormative very Catholic, like it was instilled in me and my siblings. So like, we were going to have hetero normal, like, normative life, like, I was gonna get a husband, it was always a boyfriend, always a boyfriend and that, and that was just wild that I don't I didn't have that growing up. And I know that like, as an educator, like I was really intentional with the books that I had in my classes. I was really intentional with the stories that we read together. And, and I was lucky enough to be able to have the opportunity to have those stories in the classroom, try it with no questions asked. And so I think, like representation I am I am that person was that you're talking about? Like waiting, I'm waiting for someone to write a story that I can easily relate to when really like, I should have this, this motivation and this power to just tell my own story. And because I know time and time again, I'll read like, a Filipino literature and I'm like, oh, but like, they're not queer, or they're not a woman or non binary or whatever. Right? And it's always like that gap of like, okay, maybe it is time for me to just like, figure out how this is going to look for me instead of getting upset all the time that I don't see myself. Yeah, well, I I'm excited about all the work that you that you're putting out there. And so how can we educators, affirm learners identities in our classrooms, so to truly and genuinely celebrate our learners as they are, regardless of what we have in society, and whatever political movement is happening, have like, always believed? Liz Kleinrock 23:38 I think a lot of that's a big question, I think, honestly, can get boiled down to instead of telling kids you are this asking them who are you? And that sounds like a really simplistic, but I've also been amazed at how many teachers don't actually do that. A lot of the identity work that I do with students if, you know, I wrote I wrote this book on this topic also that came out now like almost two years ago, gosh, how time flies, but different types of activities you can do not just at the beginning of the year, but throughout the year to get to know your students because our identities also shifts and changed. It's not just like first month of schoolwork, if it is through identity maps or bio bags or you know, narrative writing, trying to get a sense of how your students see themselves, where they might want to be supported or pushed things that you know, in previous years or in other classes, they might not be comfortable, you know, bringing into the classroom and I know that a lot of teachers have different opinions on how much of my personal life do I really want to share with my students if it's, you know, work life balance or boundaries like I get it. And I also feel like if we are making big asks of our students, for them to share who they are with us, that is If that's a mutual relationship, there has to be a two way street, there is a degree of vulnerability and personal proximity that needs to be present if you expect your students to be able to open up to you. I remember being asked by coworkers like when I would say like, man, it was a really intense day, I had a student who shared like this particular story about his family. And it, you know, it was really intense. But it sparked this really great discussion and having co workers asked like, how do you get your students to, like, share those things with you? Like, because all year, I think about this, this work that we're doing in the community that we're building as like CO constructing this vessel with my students that has to carry and sustain this work long term, it's nothing that I can just put on them, it's also not something that I just expect them to do for everyone. It's very much like a collaborative process. That requires trust that requires mutual respect. And too often in schools, when we talk about respect between teachers and students, we talk about compliance, not actually what like healthy respect looks like. So thinking about what we're actually going to be able to do to put those types of values into our classroom and community to make sure that our students feel like they can be brave, they can be authentic, that they can show up. And I think one of the best ways we can do that is modeling that ourselves with who we are. Toni Rose Deanon 26:26 And there's that vulnerability piece coming in. Right? It's so difficult to be vulnerable. And there's definitely a push for that just to kind of show up as yourself as well, right? Like, this whole perfectionism thing of getting it right the first time and not having any kind of revisions or reassessment is really unfair as far as like some of our teaching practices, right. But like, showing up and, and making mistakes in front of your students, and then like figuring out how to learn from those mistakes is really important. I also think, Liz, like this compliance piece can be a whole another topic that we can talk about too, right? Like you're absolutely right about. You're so right about respect and what people assume or think or expect it to be, when really it's just compliance. Yep. I gotta sit with that for a while. Liz Kleinrock 27:18 I think it also connects to like that question about like, cultural responsiveness and like culturally sustaining practices, like I remember and like, you know, what I mentioned before, about, like, social emotional learning really being seen for this, like white dominant, not culturally responsive lens, that like, especially when I was teaching in LA, having a lot of like Korean students, if you are, you know, having a serious conversation with a Korean student, chances are, they're not going to make eye contact with you. Because in Korean culture, it's disrespectful to make eye contact with an older person or a teacher of your students. But in western, your US culture, there's very much like, look at me, while I'm talking to you look me in the eyes, why aren't you respecting me? And teachers not understanding that piece, you're just going to create an even more like negative relationship with your student if you don't have that understanding? Right. And Toni Rose Deanon 28:08 this is something that I tell educators all the time, it's like really taking a step back and figuring out what are barriers that you're unintentionally creating? Because we always, were always creating barriers, whether we know it or not, and we really have to be aware and reflect on what those barriers could be. And, yeah, that's so true, right? Like all the expectations that we may have of a certain group of kids or whatever that may be, because based off like what we know, or what we think we know, can actually be really harmful, and not create that space where our students can show up as themselves. And I think this is again, where educating ourselves would be really important. And but also, knowing that there's like, you know, there's that bias, confirmation bias as well, right? If you're looking for that stereotype, or that assumption, you'll definitely find it. And so I think, again, another lesson of how to like educate yourself in the most effective way. Okay, so listeners are going to take a quick break for an announcement and we come back we'll talk more about listeners, amazing work and education. Hey, listeners, it's Tony rose here with an announcement. When we have additional seats available for our virtual mentorship program, we always pull educators from our waitlist first. If you've always wanted to join the virtual mentorship program, but couldn't get funding join our waitlist at modern classrooms.org/waitlist. All right, and we're back with Liz. So Liz, you wrote a book start here, start now guide to anti bias and anti racist work in your school community. And I'm a huge fan of it loved it so much. But tell us more about this journey for you like what was the purpose what gap? Did you see how did you write this? But it was just such The powerful book for me and I know time and time again, I've read people's responses and thoughts about it to have just like it was just a very, I don't want to say easy, but it was a great way to just kind of see what all we can do moving forward. So tell us a little bit more. Liz Kleinrock 30:17 Thank you so much. I mean, honestly, it was quite a process like trying to get your thoughts together to write a book. Well, the pandemic is going on, not always easiest. But the the way that the book is organized, if folks haven't picked it up. Originally, it was supposed to focus on different barriers that educators face when trying to do anti bias and anti racism work. And then like throughout the process, realized, like, I didn't want to frame it from like a negative perspective. So now it's through the lens of questions, or like, what if this would affect? Each chapter is based on a different set of responses that I received from educators through social media? As I was starting to plan for this book? I just put out a question on like Instagram stories saying, hey, educators, if you are, like in a position where you want to be doing anti bias, anti racist work in your classroom or school, but you're not, why are you not? I got hundreds of responses from people. And from the responses that I received was able to sort them into different like common categories. And then those categories became the topics for each chapter. So if it's about working with administration, or you know, I only teach math and science or like, what does this work even look like? Or I have, like, zero free time in my, in my planning periods in my schedule? Like, what do I do? I wanted it to be, again, responsive to teachers, like based on what they were experiencing what they really needed. And hopefully, it's like, I wanted it to be as practical as possible, that any educator would be able to open it up, find an idea or a strategy, something that they might be able to try on their own. Toni Rose Deanon 32:10 That was, I was like, so excited, so excited when I found out about this book, and then I just, I love it so much. So thank you for sharing that. And so a little bit of advice, I guess. But for educators who want to do a bar work, write the anti bias and anti racist work, but don't have admin support, what would be one piece of advice that you would give this educator because I've heard time and time again, from multiple educators of like, Hey, this is really difficult. And then they're challenged, fill in the blank, right? Liz Kleinrock 32:39 Yeah. You know, there are a myriad of reasons why an administrator might not be supportive. I think trying to figure out the root cause of that hesitancy is the first thing that we got to do. As someone who has never been an administrator who learned so much about what administrators do throughout the process of this book. You know, even if you really dislike your administrator, if you think that they're plotting against you take a breath and try to have some compassion for your school leadership, because they are wearing more hats than you could possibly imagine. Administrators have the exact same fears, the exact same anxieties that classroom teachers do. And chances are, you know, your administrator is like an iceberg, you're going to see like, 10 person at the top, and there's going to be so much stuff going on underneath it, chances are, they might not be communicating with classroom teachers, because they don't want to stress you out more. So be kind, first of all, be empathetic. But being able to have like a face to face conversation and be like, What can I do to you know, boost your confidence in this work? Do you want to come in and observe like a read aloud in my classroom? So you can see like, I'm not indoctrinating children, that kids are perfectly capable of engaging in these types of conversations? Are you worried about parents? Is there a school board member that you're particularly concerned about? Like, what can we actually do in terms of partnership to support one another? In this work? In my book, I also have a couple of different planning documents that I hate the you know, the idea of checking boxes for this work, but just making sure that you have your bases covered. If you are going to do let's say like a lesson about gender and sexuality in your class, knowing what texts you're going to use, what are outside resources that might support this work? What are ways that you can bring in parents and caregivers to involve them in this learning process? How can you communicate this? How can you check for understanding with your students like the same types of things that we would do for many other subjects that we teach? I just think a lot of people don't think about doing those same types of check ins with students regarding a bar work. Toni Rose Deanon 34:54 Hmm, yeah. All of this and I like the humanizing approach right? of you know, first Thinking first, let's have empathy. Because again, everyone's wearing so many different hats. And I like the iceberg metaphor as well, because I think that's so true for any individual right. And so I really liked that. And again, just opening up that conversation, like you said, and just trying to figure out, like how we can move forward with this kind of work that we want to start doing in our classrooms. And so thank you for that. And so I've heard again, like, specifically from white educators where, you know, they're saying, like, hey, really want to connect with our students, but we're afraid of making or saying the wrong thing, right? There's time and time of videos being released on social media of teachers, saying some things that are problematic, and so it's left them to just kind of do nothing. What would you tell those educators, Liz Kleinrock 35:54 I would say, if you're afraid of saying something wrong, chances are you will say something wrong, like, as we talked about earlier, you're going to make mistakes. And that's okay. being accountable to your mistakes, being clear about them, showing that you have learned from them, I think is incredibly, incredibly important. Thinking of like, going back to what I mentioned about, you know, trying to co create this vessel with your students, what are the types of things you can do to build your classroom or school culture that is really explicit about the way that folks communicate if harm occurs? Also, what does accountability look like? Because I think even if you are like a white cisgender, street Christian teacher, teaching a class of predominantly black and brown kids, it doesn't mean that you don't have anything in common with your students, you probably have more in common with them, and vice versa than you could ever imagine. But if figuring out, if questions or issues come up in your class, how are we going to resolve them in a way where people feel brave enough to voice their concerns? And that we can also continue to humanize one another, it doesn't matter if you're a student, or if you are a classroom teacher. But I understand the fear and we also can't let the fear get in the way of doing this work. Toni Rose Deanon 37:17 Yeah, I mean, this makes me think of that this one instance, with my students, I really wanted to shift to more gender and gender neutral terms. As far as you know, instead of saying, like boys and girls are ladies and gentleman getting, you know, my students attention. I shared that with my students. And I said, Hey, if I do this, I need you all to call me in or correct me and say, like, Misty, you met class, or group or team, right. And so when we started creating that community, like you said, right, it's a collab collaborative opportunity for us to just kind of check in with each other. And so they were really good with checking my terms that I use in my class, and it and it created just that accountability piece for me too. And it allowed for my students to see like, Oh, Ms. D, is shifting, making some changes with the words that she uses. And so they also just started, you know, kind of checking in with, like, if there were any biases that were coming up, or like one of my students was basically like, hey, Misty, I really appreciate that we've covered you know, black experiences, we've covered and talked about Asian experiences. But we haven't talked about any, like Hispanic figures. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I You're right. But I think that they really appreciate the fact that they're able to tell me what I'm lacking. And I'm not like, going off and like, feeling some type of way about it. Right? It's more so like, Oh, that was definitely something that I lacked, that I didn't even know I was lacking. And thank you so much for sharing that with me. And I was able to implement or like, have a lesson right away that had you know, someone who spoke Spanish or Hispanic heritage or anything like that, where my students were like, okay, like she's taking our feedback into consideration. And not just, we do what she says we do. So yeah, fear is a part of it. But I think that we will never learn if we just sit in comfort. So, Liz, what do you hope to see in the future and what goals do you have? Liz Kleinrock 39:16 Oh, my gosh, how much time? Toni Rose Deanon 39:19 A big one, right. Liz Kleinrock 39:22 But I hope to see in the future. I feel like my hopes first, you can edit this out if you want. My hopes, the future like are such low hanging fruit like they're on the ground. I mean, I want a future where we are not debating whether or not we should teach black history. I want a future where queer kids are safe and loved and affirmed in our schools and, you know, their families don't run the risk of being snitched on by the government. You know, just for supporting their children. Their child's like, you know, gender identity, I want all of those things. I want our schools to be joyful and flexible. Um, affirming places for kids. And, you know, I think that I have definitely committed myself to trying to work towards that common goal with other folks. And like on a personal note, I'm trying to do more things that also bring me joy, because this line of work, like education is exhausting. And then adding this layer of, you know, focusing on racism and inequality in schools can be kind of a downer. So wanting to focus on things that are going to be joyful, and, you know, inspiring and liberatory for folks, really trying to shift that perspective and that mindset, Toni Rose Deanon 40:38 we're gonna manifest all of that and it is going to happen. Who are moving pebbles? So that's something that I really like to focus on, too is like, this is a, this is huge work. This is a this is a big piece. And if we focus on like, making big changes all the time, that can be really disheartening. So all of that and more right, Liz, that's, that's really, really great. Like you said, low hanging fruit. How can our listeners connect with us? Liz Kleinrock 41:10 I am most active on Instagram. My handle is at Teach and transform. I have a website, teach and transform that org, feel free to hit me up there. And that's where I also just share a lot of my work. So we'd love to connect with folks. Drop me a line, send me a DM Toni Rose Deanon 41:31 applied it into those DMS. Liz is really good at responding. And I think another thing that I really love about Liz is just that, you know, she's responsive. You can you have access to her, which is which is beautiful. And so one last question, Liz before you go, you and I love horror movies. So what is your favorite horror movie? And you think everyone should watch? Liz Kleinrock 41:55 Favorite like ever? That's so hard. Oh. Okay, so when we were talking about earlier is an Orthodox Jewish horror film called the vigil. It's very, very good. It's very creepy. I really like more supernaturally type of scary movies. So I would highly recommend that one. Also, I saw Megan recently, and that was wonderful. It was so creepy and funny and smart. I really, really liked it. Toni Rose Deanon 42:30 That's been in the theaters for a while too. I made check it out. Good to know, Liz. Liz Kleinrock 42:34 Personally, I have an appreciation for horror movies that are rated PG 13. Because you're going to rely on a lot of other things aside from just like, straight up violence and gore to make an impact. Like, it's really really smart and just absolutely hilarious at moments. Toni Rose Deanon 42:51 Okay, that's so good to know. Like, as always was just thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your brain and just teaching me new things always. So, listeners remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast at modern classrooms.org/ 128. We'll have this this episode's recap and transcript uploaded to the modern classrooms blog on Friday, so be sure to check their check back in the show notes for this episode. If you'd like to access those. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday. Again, Liz, you're the bomb.com You're amazing. Thanks for chatting. Zach Diamond 43:33 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at modern class proj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the modern classrooms project podcast.