Toni Rose Deanon 0:03 Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Toni Rose Deanon 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode 162 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they/them pronouns, the Community Engagement Manager here at MCP and I am joined by Livia Matteucci, she/her pronouns, a college counselor at an independent school in near Seattle. And Pauline Salgado, she/her pronouns, a Youth Mental Health Counselor at a nonprofit organization in Seattle. Now, listeners, this is a really, really exciting moment for me because I worked with Livia at DC as sixth grade English teachers. So that was back in like 2016 17 18, something like that. It's been a while. And then Pauline and I worked together when I moved to Washington State, and Pauline was the middle school counselor. So um, and that was in 2020. So different parts of my life, which is wild. And now we're all in this same space. So welcome, Pauline and Livia. Livia Matteucci 1:21 Thanks so much for having me. Pauline Salgado 1:23 Hello. Toni Rose Deanon 1:26 It's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. Before we get started. What is bringing you joy currently, we'll start with you, Olivia. Livia Matteucci 1:34 I had a really wonderful weekend. Last weekend a friend of mine did a comp plan for us a spontaneous like trip out to the show and region of Washington as a little as Lake Shore land is in that area. And there was like this folk like this folk band that my friend found on Tik Tok that it was a free concert. And we and we just went and the concert was at some like winery and the moon or the moon rose over the mountain. And I was like, Is this my life now? Like, I like living from like, moving from DC to out here. I'm like, it's just beautiful out here. And yeah, I it was one of those moments where I was like, This is an incredible place to live. And just really grateful for friends like that, too, are adventurous and can do are open to spontaneous things like that. And just music and outdoors and wineries. And just what else? What else? Lovely. Toni Rose Deanon 2:27 Yeah, it's really interesting, too, because you and I both did this move from one Washington to another Washington, right? So DC to Washington and in DC is beautiful in its own way. And Washington is just a whole new world, right? Like, I really, really, really, really, really love Washington State and everything that it has to offer. And it's interesting, because I'm currently in Montgomery, Alabama, and I'm like, wow, I miss Washington state. And also like, Montgomery is also beautiful in its own way. And so just seeing like, the different the differences between areas and states in this in this country is really interesting, too. So what about you, Pauline? Pauline Salgado 3:11 For me, it's probably going on, like many dates with my friends. So I don't know why something about middle school is like, connects to me. But I met my friends in middle school. And we've all kind of like grown up and people are married people are having babies. And so it's been really nice to like intentionally see each other, like from time to time, so So I get to see them this weekend. So that's been really nice to like, celebrate our friendship. Toni Rose Deanon 3:36 Ah, that sounds so so lovely. My best friend is actually a best friend from middle school. So I can definitely relate. I love that just like being able to see each other's growth through the decades, right? Because it's decades. Toni Rose Deanon 3:51 So thank you so much for sharing that. All right, so tell us more about who you are and how you started your counseling journey. We'll start with you Livia. Livia Matteucci 4:00 So I think what brings me to counseling to college counseling is you know, having worked as an English teacher for a number of years, I like no, I really love like working with students. I love working with them in a really kind of close way. I when I decided I wanted to leave teaching, I knew that I still wanted to be like in the school building to work with students like on a most a consistent basis, but it's in a different environment. So um, college counseling for me has just been a really beautiful like blend of like having some more by quiet time throughout the day, but still meeting with students regularly. And I think for me, one of my favorite parts really is helping them feel supported and whatever their next step looks like. You know, I think a lot of students come in with so many questions and concerns and anxieties around people's expectations. So be able to meet them where they're at, and then help provide them resources for them to kind of leave high school feeling empowered with what their next step looks like. I feel like I could have been a I was a part of that is huge. And I think from the English teaching side of it to like helping Students craft really powerful personal narratives and essays that really reflect their strengths, see them as the heroes of their own story. I mean, I love reading student essays all the time, which I know not everyone does. And a lot of students don't. So I'm really glad that I can be that person for those students, such as something that was brought me a lot of joy. And that's something I'm really excited about in this role. Toni Rose Deanon 5:22 Yeah, and I'm just so happy. For like all the growth that you've done. Like it's been, I think, when you first started teaching, it was like your first year teaching, right? Livia second year, but yeah, second year, yeah, second year with me. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, Olivia is on it. And then like to kind of just be with you in this journey of like, now transfer, you know, just kind of switching to counseling. It's been so beautiful to just witness. So thank you for that. What about you, Pauline? Pauline Salgado 5:49 So my counseling journey is kind of unconventional, like I've never planned to kind of be where I am. I think going to school, I knew that I always wanted to work with kids. But I think my pathway at the time, I really wanted to do PT, go to PT school, but found it like super challenging. And just like through that experience, I ended up like meeting a lot of mentors that really helped me get through college. After college, I spent some time doing community organizing, as well as just like working in nonprofits. I tried teaching for a bit found that I'm not very good. So just like through all of those experiences, I ended up finding like a counseling program and found that I actually really love working like one on one with kids. And so just being connected to community in a way and connected to a school without without having those teaching skills. Like I wish I did, I feel I have so much love for teachers, but also having like, the ability to just like connect with kids on a different level. That just kind of like opened my eyes to kind of like exploring a field that I never thought I would ever join, especially with mental health. I think that's something that now is like, very, like well accepted. I know that there's still stigma but it is really nice to like be in a space where we are having conversations about mental health regularly. Yeah, and Toni Rose Deanon 7:17 thank you for that segue. You know, listeners, it's October, our theme for this month is really social emotional learning, emotional intelligence, whatever, everything and anything that deals with emotions, honestly. Right. And so like just teaching students and our learners how to navigate this like world. While they're also just learning and teaching themselves, right. And so this is such an important conversation that needs to be had. I definitely felt like when I first started teaching, I would have loved something like this. And so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you all. And thank you for sharing your journey Pauline. Also, listeners Pauline is Filipino. So Toni Rose Deanon 7:55 you know, I'm always fighting the Filipinos, y'all. It's been fun. So Livia, you and I work together as sixth grade English teachers in DC, like I said before, and we both implemented modern classroom actually. And now we're both in Washington doing other things, which is mind boggling to me. And so the universe is just incredible. Right? So your college counselor right now, how do you think the skills that we taught back in 2019 can be helpful for students as they transition into college? And then also, just like a question for me as a middle school educator, what does a college counselor do? Because I have no idea. Livia Matteucci 8:32 Yeah, both great questions. And I'll answer the second one first, actually. So I think it might be helpful for some folks, because I think students often confused about this too, because in my office, we have school counselors. Yeah, and we have college counselors. So yeah, as a college counselor, I work with mostly 11th and 12th graders as they're kind of looking into whether they want their post secondary path to be for our school many 90 90% of our students go to a four year college but some you know go to a two year or military or right into the workforce or gap year so I kind of help students ascertain like that path for them getting different options help them explore careers and majors. And then if the decision is they want to pursue a four year degrees and kind of researching colleges thinking that my favorite part is one of my favorite parts is like the essay writing part like because like the English teacher we just like loving that. So working with students on finding their voice in their writing, which I meant to mention earlier was part of the reason I also wanted to go into college counseling was just that connection of like finding your voice through advocating for yourself and this next step um, anyway so when I work with students in that way it's like I very much like meet them where they're at in high school to help see them forward until the next chapter steps to get them there. The school counselors at least you know, at my department my school are more like you know, working on are the high school the high school is like scheduled like the students schedules like throughout their high school experience, of course, like mental health, social, emotional things that come up sometimes interpersonal conflict with other students. that sort of thing. Um, but anyway, so that was sort of like, I guess our distinction at least like at our school, we do like school counseling versus college counseling. But um, yeah, in terms of his skills, I think about this a lot. Because, you know, similarly, when we are teaching sixth graders, like there were some sixth graders who are ready for high school, they beautifully crafted emails knew how to, like, have a conversation with the adult and other sixth graders that were like, I don't, my whole essay, my whole, like, email is in my subject line of the email is sent to my teacher. Right? So I think you get a bit of that not the same extent, but I think working with 11th and 12th graders, I think, teaching kids or having kids seeing if kids have had those skills of like, Do you know how to advocate for yourself? I mean, that's huge for college counseling is like, Do you know how to schedule a meeting? Like with your college counselor, do you know how to like send an email to me send an email to a college reps, that's a really big one, like, teaching them like, like email etiquette. And I think I mean, I think, you know, with modern classrooms, like self pacing is such a huge thing, obviously. And I think that's a huge part of the college counseling process, too, is like, we have this whole checklist for you to go through throughout the whole both senior year, but also junior year, and all four years, if you really want to go go crazy with it. So it's really that is a master class, and like, can you with, with guidance, you know, like, go through this process of applying for your next steps, without necessarily always having like a leaderboard, or a checkbox, something like the check through, right. And I mean, it's, it's us as adults, like checking out with the kids. But um, it's really interesting to see which of those which students seem to know how to check into themselves on our checklist and kind of move through steps. And which of them are like, I don't even know where to start, I am drowning, you know, like, so I think a lot of my job, and a lot of what I'm, like always working on is figuring out where students are at mentally, which is sometimes different than what they say out loud, like, Oh, I'm fine. And actually, they're not. Right, um, so kind of figure out where they are, and then what resources I can give them at that moment to meet them where they are, that answers their questions, but also doesn't create overwhelmed with too much information. So there's a little bit of like, there's a lot of different, like, kind of a jigsaw situation. But um, so that was very long winded answer. But that was sort of, hopefully that helps. Toni Rose Deanon 12:22 No, I know that that that I mean, it helped provide clarity, right? So for example, right? When I was talking to you about having a counselor episode for podcast, you were really quick to be like, hey, tr, I'm a college counselor just wanted to confirm that you knew the difference. And I was like, oh, yeah, we'd love that. We want to talk more about what that means and what that entails. Right. And so thank you for clarifying that in defining exactly what your role is. And then as far as like modern classroom, when you were thinking or when you were talking through it, I was just thinking about the self pacing piece, right? And like the advocacy as well, right? With self pacing, students really learn how to basically do like time management and prioritizing things, right. So like, hey, let's think about what our must dues are, and what our should dues and aspire to dues are. And then like thinking about the time and how long it will take. And I love this whole like providing them support. And so giving them some guidance, right? And just making sure that they're good, but they're gonna do it on their own pace. And like you like Livia, you really shined when we were teaching together with like, chunking for students, right? Like you were always thinking about how do we scaffold this for students, so that they feel supported, they feel confident, they feel good about what they're learning, and teaching each other. Right? And so that was something that you did for me, which is always constantly pushing for me to be like, Okay, but how do we make this make sense to a an 11 year old? Because I'd be like, Oh, no, this is great. And you're like, Oh, yes, add here, all the gaps that we need to consider as well. So I think chunking in middle school, right, is also really, really powerful for high school or for any age, actually, because like, as an adult, now, you have to chunk for me because everything else is gonna go over my head. So I appreciate that. Thank you for reflecting on that. And I really do like Miss are like MCP, sixth grade team, when we were teaching together. So much fun. It was just so much fun. And I always tell folks to like, we need to have you need to have a teacher bestie do this thing with you because it makes it that much better for mental and emotional health is as a teacher, right? Because again, we're like shifting our teaching and learning practices. So thank you again for that. Now we're gonna we're going to shift to Pauline. So this is kind of like I don't want to say like a downer. But Pauline, like you and I work together in Washington and you've witnessed me in my darkest moments. So you and I worked in 2020 and that was when my mom actually passed away. And there was an instance where or you just saw me like having a moment just like breakdown in the car. And I just remember you just walking up to me and just be like, Hey, are you okay? And then like, you just took care of me, I felt taken care of that school year, and I'm not even a student, right? Like, I'm staff. And that wasn't really in my head, that wasn't your role, but you still kind of stepped up and made sure that I was okay. And so you and I started kind of having this relationship, where I kind of got to know a little bit more about what you do for the school that we were at. And you worked really closely with our middle school students. And so can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your role as a school counselor then? And then also, right, like, you're a licensed mental health counselor in in schools now. So like, what does that mean? Exactly? Like, what's the difference with the similarity? Tell us more. Pauline Salgado 15:50 Yeah, I guess just to piggyback off what you were mentioning, like, I know that, I don't know if you'd like you've all been hearing how, like, no conversations right now about mental health is about boundaries, setting and setting our nurses being clear with expectations, and I know, like, sometimes when that gets translated in professional setting, or in a school setting, right, like we're taught to, you know, turn off our emotions, or you're not allowed to, like, kind of, like, show up as yourself, even though when that's like the reality. And so, I don't know, I just like go into my job thinking like, Yes, this is my job to support kids. And I need to have like, a healthy boundary of like, what's working, what's not work, but at the end of the day, like, this is real life. And if I'm gonna, like, be interacting with like, kids, and like, my peers, and my colleagues, like, I'm going to treat them as if, like, we were just like, humans, I don't know, if that's like a, like, the best way to articulate it, but it's kind of like modeling for kids that it's okay to, like, express these emotions, and they shouldn't have to feel shame for for doing that, just because that's what leads you to, you know, like, feel authentically or like, be able to, like, reach out for help. And I guess that that's like, like, couldn't leads into my role as like a school counselor. I won't take credit for for like posting this. But my, like, one of my classmates in grad school, they termed it as like school counselors are the social conscience of the school, we kind of see the ins and outs for the problem solvers. We take the heartbeat of the school, we see trends, and we have like this unique position where we literally have some sort of contact with every stakeholder in the school, like staff, students, families, community members, just like everybody, we just have, were able to make that connection somehow, whether it's like work related or not. But we have this unique perspective where we kind of have to know everything, and also know how to problem solve everything. Because usually, we're the kind of the first people to that, you know, that staff go to when like a student has a problem. And they've tried to problem solving with themselves. It's, they usually come to our office and say like this, the students struggling, like what do I do? So it's really hard when I when I meet people, and they asked like, oh, you're a counselor, and then they automatically think I'm like, a mental health counselor, but I'm like, No, I'm actually a school counselor. And they're like, what does that mean? It's like, it's a lot of things, right? It's like, we provide short term counseling, crisis counseling, we teach PD social emotional skills. We advocate for students, we create policy. We plan events, it's, it's kind of like everything. And so it was like, at the time, like, it was really nice to be able to be in this like fluid space where I got to interact with, like students in different ways. One of my favorite memories that at Overlake, was just opening my space up for students. And it wasn't even like for a counseling role, or like counseling purpose, it was just to like, have students eat lunch. And so kids would just like hang out in there throughout the day during lunch, and then some kids didn't even like make the connection that I was the counselor at the school. So it really helped when, you know, kids were struggling or like they really needed someone to talk to, they found out that I was the school counselor. So it was like it made it really easy to like connect with kids in that way. And whatever support that that might be it could be short term counseling, or helping them get accommodations like whatever that was. Like, even if I didn't know how to provide the support they specifically needed I would just figure it out and make it work. So every day was different every day was hard, but it was really, it really challenged my brain. I have to like problem solve different things each day, but I found it really rewarding to be able to like make those connections with those kids. Toni Rose Deanon 19:57 I really love that and now I'm thinking to Polly like we're gonna go off script a little bit, right? Livia, do you remember, like interacting with counselors as an educator when we were back in DC because I don't remember. Livia Matteucci 20:11 I only remember more. So like, if I had a student in crisis, and and a counselor would come down to check in with them, or the student has a regular schedule, like a regular standing like appointment, I guess with the counselor, but no, I not. Not a ton, to be honest. Yeah. Toni Rose Deanon 20:33 Right. Like, for me, I like even forgot that they existed up until I was at Overlake. With you, Pauline, and you like just like, magically showed up? wherever I was. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, school counselors like, Yeah, and so Okay, as counselors now, how often do y'all collaborate with educators? Livia Matteucci 20:52 So it's funny, actually, you like, ask that question. Because I actually was just emailing teachers today about so just on the college side, you know, we have letter of rec, you know, teachers write letters of rec for their students, some some teachers, you know, like, usually it's 11th grade teachers, who teach like a core academic subject. So I actually was emailing teachers today, like folks who are new to our school or new to letter writing, like an email, like, hey, like, I'd like open office hours, if you want to come by ask me questions about how to use our platform. Naviance how to, like write a letter of rec, like, I never want to feel like I am like, mansplaining or whatever. Like the other term for that. I never want to seem like I'm, like, I'm speaking down anyone's I'm always like, you know, I'm available if you would like support otherwise, I mean, I know from experience, you know, how busy teachers are. So I never want to put more on their plate. I'm really cognizant of that, honestly. Like, not sending too many emails, I really don't email teachers a lot. Try to find them in person, like, because I didn't know that email can just get really bogged down, unless they asked me to email them. But because we don't we really interface more than when it comes to letter of rec writing, or like if I have a question about a student in their class or something like that. But um, yeah, I think it might be more from for my colleagues who are school counselors. For us, for me, I work a lot more with students, and I was like college reps, I would say, Toni Rose Deanon 22:13 okay, that makes that makes a lot of sense. Do you think that like actually pulling out? I'll let you answer and then I have a follow up question for both. Pauline Salgado 22:21 Well, in my current, so my current role is a little bit different. Unlike that, with a specific school district, I actually work with, like multiple school districts now. But it's a little bit different now that, you know, I'm not an employee with the school, but I do communicate with the school counselor a lot. Like I really rely on them to kind of it's kind of like a care care team. Like I guess like that would be the best way to work. Like maybe the school counselor would like rope in this teachers and whatever other supports that they have with the school, but it is a lot of like, sharing of information updating if a kid is I don't know, for example, hospitalized or if they need certain supports at school because they'll be missing school. It's a lot of sharing information to advocate for the kid. Toni Rose Deanon 23:09 And I guess my follow up question is like, do you both wish that you had more communications with educators? And if so, like, what would that look like? Like what would you want the educators to know about the students that you work with? Livia Matteucci 23:21 I think for me, i i Actually I mean, if I had like limitless time like lol I would love to like sit in on couple of like 11th and 12th grade classes to actually see how my students like interact with other peers is like so we I'm one of two college counselors for 11th and 12th grade so we split up our class by the alphabet so I do last names A to K. So I have about 75 students in 12th grade and about 75 in 11th grade BiCMOS those students really one on one or in very small groups like during study hall and I you know like students are so different one on one or they can be versus like in the classrooms I actually this is just I wish there was a way for me to kind of pop into classes more and like like just become a fly on the wall more and to hear like teachers perspectives of like what is the student like who do they hang out with what other interests is longtime students come to me they're either super quiet, and they're like deer in the headlights or they're like Yep, there's like 10 Page bullet bulleted list of everything I have to do so I just think I'd love to find a way to collaborate with teachers where I see kind of their perspectives on students to help kind of meet them more where they're at because I you know, I always tell students this like you know, I'm writing a cover letter cover letter of rec from you but like I really don't know you super well me your teachers are you so much more like so much better. So I always tell the kids to like try as much as they can to like if they felt these like surveys for us I have time before a letter of rec writing like please take time on that because like I would love to spend more time with you to get to know you I just don't have the same time FaceTime as like you do with your teacher. So um, I think was a roundabout way of saying like I was I would love to get, you know, more of all of the teachers. But I think, you know, time is always like such a, like a scarce resource too. So just think about, like, what makes sense. And also not wanting to ever give teachers more to do too, because I'm so aware of how much there is on the teaching end. And I loved it. I also like, I'm, anyway, there's a lot going on there. Yeah, Toni Rose Deanon 25:21 yeah, time is always like a gift that I like to give back to our educators. And like, if there's no need for us to meet for 60 minutes, let's not meet for 60 minutes, right, like, take this time back and do what you got to do with it. So that's a great point. And also just like the whole relationship piece, right? Like, it's so important for us to really get to know our students to see them as a whole human being, and not just parts and segments of it too. Right. And, and I'm just going to plug in again, right with our model, like we were able to see our students. I don't want to say like fully, but for me, it was fully I felt like they showed up truly as themselves. They were a hot mess, and I loved every second of it. So yeah, no, thank you for that, Livia. What about you, Pauline? Pauline Salgado 26:02 I would agree with Livia in terms of just like, becoming a team with with educators just because I've gotten into some Sticky, sticky points where sometimes I'll have like a kid come in and will problem solve something and then I'll hear something from the educator, and they're different, and then I get put in the middle. And then they don't want to like talk to each other about it. Because like, they want us to respect each other's privacy. But it's always been helpful to just like put both, you know, the educator and the student in the room. It's like, how can we all brainstorm together to figure out, like, how can we best support you in the classroom? Because obviously, you're struggling and your teacher, like, wants to help but doesn't know how if they don't have enough information, right, they're just like, given like pieces and glimpses because, you know, if a kid struggling, they'll just show up differently in the classroom than they would in my office. So being able to feel comfortable about having these conversations and also support the kid there if like something an educator says it's like, a little bit like not the best and vice versa with the student, it's like, we got to be really clear of like, what your needs are and how to ask for them. So it is a good practice to have them. State their needs. Toni Rose Deanon 27:19 Yes. Is that the advocating piece, right, like, even as an adult now in my 30s, mid 30s, who I struggle with advocating for myself, so it's definitely a skill that we need to continue to practice. Okay, so are there any best practices or innovative approaches that you've seen in the field of counseling that have had a significant impact on student success? Livia Matteucci 27:42 Being in my second year as a college counselor, I think I'm still learning, I'm still learning a lot. So I think I'm still kind of learning more about just like different platforms that are like that are good to use for students like ways to sift through information, but on the learning journey, but it's been good. Um, but yeah, I think, I think in part for me, yeah, it's, I looked a lot to just folks who are who've been in college counseling longer than I have, which is most people and just like learning about what has worked well for you, like, what hasn't like when we go to like local conferences, and like, I will ask somebody, you know, are you using this platform? Like, if so, how, like, is it worth the fight the financial commitment of your school like it kind of learning about that? And I, I think so much about like, working smarter, not harder. So like, looking to peers at other college high schools near us, we like what is working well for their department, and what can we learn from? And then also awesome is all of us asked students like, did this thing like, I made dislike Canvas page with all of our like, rep sites? Like, do you look at it? Is it helpful? Like, what do you want to see on here, you know, so trying, as in this process, trying to, like understand more? Like, what's needed. I think one thing I meant to mention earlier, too, in terms of just college counseling as a role is one thing to keep in mind is I mean, conference as a profession is fairly new. Like, I mean, I know talking to like, my parents, and like the parents of some of my students even like, you know, I've college counseling as a role that don't exist, like 2030 years ago, like, you know, so I think like, there's also just some nuance in terms of like, what is our role look like? Because colleges is getting a lot crazier in terms of a whole industry, if you will, like so. Anyway, there's just a lot of different thoughts in there. A lot of a lot of people are still learning what all this looks like, especially with I mean, the SCOTUS case was, was, you know, test optional policies because of COVID. I mean, there's a lot of changes. So best practices, I think, that is also shifting over time, because things keep changing. So Toni Rose Deanon 29:47 I think you have to give yourself a little bit more credit Livia best practice is asking the students what they need, that in my opinion is like the number one thing that you could do because those are the those are our As consumers if you want to say our clients, right, and so like, bringing him in into the decision making or even just being like, Hey, I did this thing, what are your thoughts? Toni Rose Deanon 30:10 And you know, like working with middle school, I mean, probably into, like, if you ask them something, they'll tell you all the things. And then you're like, Okay, this is actually crap, thank you. Toni Rose Deanon 30:22 And that, in itself is best practice. And I think sometimes, you know, as educators, school leaders, you know, staff, we sometimes forget to ask students for their opinions. So I think that that's something to keep in mind to listeners, whatever you're doing innovating in the classroom, you know, outside of the classroom, always ask the students what works for them, and they'll give you the best ideas, right? And so Pauline, what about you? What have you come across Pauline Salgado 30:45 like that, that was like the perfect segue, because I was literally gonna say something similar, where, like, regardless of what or whatever therapy approach I use, like, I always gravitate towards anything that's like, person centered, like any approach, it's just, I'm just gonna focus on the kid and treat them as, you know, a unique person and, um, kind of go from there and follow their lead. So like, the school that I currently work at, there's a lot of kids that come from immigrant backgrounds, a lot of them youth of color. So you know, being like a youth, there's not a lot of opportunities to, I don't know, they're just in a position where they don't have access to a lot of things or they don't have a lot of power and things especially like navigating healthcare, like, man, all the all the things that they have to go through just to access us with insurance stuff. Like it's, it's what, like, I can't even explain it. I'm confused sometimes. And so, when I go, and I meet with a kid, I think it's kind of like off putting in first, or like, they're surprised that they're like, Oh, you're like asking me like, what you want to do, or what I want to talk about. And kind of like lead the discussion. Like, I just see myself as a person to support them. And, like, not give them advice. Like, I really want to empower them to feel like, you know, like, this is your treatment, like you get to choose what you want to do and what decisions you want to make. And I'm just going to support you. Maybe there are times where like, decisions are hard. And you might not think that this is the best, but I'm just gonna listen in and kind of like guide you because you know, at the end of the day, like you know, yourself best no one else does. And so it is really nice to kind of sit down with them and just be like, okay, like, what, where do you want to start? And they just stare at me sometimes because they're like, weird, like, no one else gets to ask me this question ever. Livia Matteucci 32:40 Can I jump in? Because I just was like, laughing so much pulling vote, you're saying because I think I actually use a lot of the same language with my students, too. In terms of the last one, what you said, like I taught my sons all the time. Like, my job is not to tell you what to do. My job is to give you option is to provide resources and information and guidance, and counsel, like offer suggestions that my job is not to tell you what to do. And I always tell us, like, I will support you no matter what this is your life. This is your decision. This is your future. As it's your future. It's not your parents future, it is your future. And like, as like an AI, so I very much similar to you, like just try to give them all the information that questions they have up front. Like when I have my first meeting with them. I'll say like, oh, are there specific questions you want to make sure that we cover today? And some students like oh, yes, thank you for asking. I already have these questions. Others are like, Wait, you're asking me like, why are you? You're the one who's in charge. Right? And like, what is this? You know, and then button at the end of the meeting, I usually end with like, is there anything else that we haven't talked about? You want to make sure that we touch on it as soon as we get like, the whole I know, you did a really good job. Thank you. Like this, the sweetest thing? I think, you know, the teenagers like why are you asking for my like, oh, like, okay, like sign off, you know, like, but I think it is a kind of to your point. I think when we give students the space big no, like you're about your thoughts, your opinions, like your perspective on this matters. You know, I think is really just valuable. And I just try really hard to like, not be would be like a good cop, bad cop to students, but it'd be like, this is all the resources like this is what a balanced college list would look like for you. And this would look different than someone else next to you. And like, that's, that's coming from place of like care and supporting you as a whole person and not just looking at your GPA. But like really trying to like send our students in that and I always try to tell students to like, I mean, I'm a fast talker, I get really excited I get like, I have like six different have that with my brain all the time. So I'll tell kids like, if I don't make sense, if I'm talking too fast, or if I something I'm saying doesn't make sense. Can you please like, stop me and interrupt me or like, even if it's, you know, I'm in my office like you know, raise your Something foggy down. But I'm like zooming ahead, right? And I think the more that I've talked to students, like after the first meeting, they're like, oh, yeah, okay, great like, and I have a network pour, I feel like I have to work really hard. In that the half hour chunks, we get stupid pay, like, I want you to be able to trust me, like I care about you, like, have them make the most of our time together, because it is probably somewhere up only into like, precious time, you don't have a ton of time with these students all day, every day. So help them make the most of it, help them feel empowered and supported, and be able to access resources on their own to not just like in my office, but how do they know? Do they know how to use the College Board website? Do they know how to read the Fiske guide? Like, do they know what these percentages mean? For them? Like is if so then that means I've been helping them. But if they have to come back every other day with a new question that like I took at certain point, it's similar to like, modern classrooms perspective of like, teaching them skills, that then they can answer some of their own questions as well as before, so we're always here for his guidance, but then also helping them kind of scaffold up as well. Toni Rose Deanon 36:03 No, that was that was really great. I mean, a couple of things came up for me, we had an episode Melody Maitland, I don't know if you remember her. Livia, but she said something really powerful to me. She said that we want to do things with students and not do things to students, right? There's prepositions. And Pauline. I don't know about you, but me being like being Filipino prepositions are hard. Toni Rose Deanon 36:27 But that one actually really like resonated with me. I was like, Oh, I can understand that. Right? Like doing with students as opposed to doing to students, those are two different actions. And so I really like this whole thinking about giving our students our youth voice. Because sometimes we don't, as a society, we find kids or youth to be like, Oh, they don't know any better. And it's actually they know more than we do sometimes. So it's really nice to it's a nice reminder to like, let her let our students be who they are, right and ask the questions. And also, like, make decisions, they can make decisions. And like you said, Pauline, like they they know themselves more than anyone in this world, right? Because they have to sit with themselves all the time. And so yeah, I just, I'm like, you know, I wish I had that when I was growing up. Like, I wish I had someone to be like to ask me questions, because I would have definitely made different decisions. If someone were there to guide me through all of the next steps. So I appreciate you both sharing that. So Pauline, you've mentioned this before, right? In recent years importance of mental health and education has gained significant attention. Like I'm kind of surprised that it gained so much traction and also so grateful that it has. And so how do you and you kind of alluded to this already? Or answered it, right? Like how do school counselors address the mental health needs of students, and you said, just like being there providing a space for them to just show up and be themselves authentically, and sit with their feelings and acknowledge their feelings, right? And then what resources or strategies are available to support students while being I think that one is a really important question, too, especially for educators who just have no idea how to support our students in that way. Pauline Salgado 38:13 This is such a hard question to answer. It's like trying to solve all the world's problems. Um, I feel like every school is different. And I think that's the part that sucks is that like, not every school building has like a mental health counselor that's just on site available, like the school that I'm at, I'm only there twice a week, and then I'm off to a different school district on the other two days. So it's really hard to just like have one mental health counselor like, and then serving as many kids as I could can like in one day, right? And that, you know, that tires me out too. Yeah. And Pauline, Toni Rose Deanon 38:52 I just think you too, like the two days that you're there. It's like kind of saying, Oh, no, you can only have a mental breakdown on Mondays and Thursdays. That's the only time we have that is wild to think about right. That is Pauline Salgado 39:05 like just saying all that you want to talk about when I come back on Thursday. Toni Rose Deanon 39:09 Yeah, anyways. Go ahead. Pauline Salgado 39:13 I don't know. I just wish, like, every school had like a mental health professional, at least to you know, like, is that's not even enough. But I guess just like what I learned from just like the current rollout that I'm in. So I've been in my organization for about a year, like over a year. And we have like a great team of clinicians, and it's really specific. We target specific needs. So our organization primarily serves populations in King County that identify as Asian Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander, just because our clinicians are made of different folks that speak the languages, right. So we get like this cultural connection where we can like work with families, where there's this barrier of like, oh, I can't trust my kid or trust myself to have counseling if I don't trust you or like, I need some sort of thing that connects us. So, I've had a couple of kids say that it's been really nice to have like an Asian counselor, because they're like that. I've never seen that before. And I was like, wow, that's super sad. But I'm really grateful to be here. But at the same time, like, because the, the need is so high that like, our organization is working with King County to work in different school district just to work with any student. And the weird thing is, is that like, regardless of your you have government insurance, whether your parents have insurance, there's this barrier of like, I'm still a minor, and like, can I still access mental health, right? So in Washington State, we have this like, this law, where if you're over the age of 13, you can access mental health without the consent of a caregiver. So that's really awesome. So like, a safe place for kids who are already going there. All they have to do is like talk to their school counselor, they referred to us, and then we show up, we're kind of like, we just like deploy ourselves into the school. And then like, we can, like, provide counseling, they're on site, and everything's confidential, unless they want us to, like, communicate with their families, obviously, like, we would love family support, you know, just because those are the people that they're living with. But obviously, not every family are close, or maybe they're the source of their stress. And so being able to, like just be there, they don't have to worry about transportation, or like their families finding out. And then, you know, support them as much as they can until they, you know, when they graduate high school. So I wish there was more stuff like this, because like, I don't know, it would be amazing for kids to just like, have their own therapists or like if they feel like they need a therapist, they don't have to, like go through their insurance and wait like three months for one because it's it's really hard out there, guys. It's like super hard out there right now. Toni Rose Deanon 42:05 Yeah, I can attest to that. It's really, really, I mean, it's the first time ever, I've gone through so many therapists, and it is the first time ever that I have a Filipina therapist. Now I would love to have a queer Filipina, but that is such a, like a small amount of therapists out there that are queer and Filipino. And so I appreciate you naming the fact that there are barriers and also just what you shared about Washington state, where if you're above 13, you get access. Like I knew I liked Washington state, right? I was getting to like it more and more. And so like, the more I learned about Washington State, I'm like, wow, that is actually a really dope practice. And like, you're right, Pauline. Like, I wish this is something that all students can access. Because when we talk about therapy and mental health, that doesn't mean because you know, there's still that stigma that like, You're crazy, if you need a therapist, or like something's wrong with you mentally if you need a therapist, and it's like, well, as humans, we go through so many things in life, and we really need to have time to process and have a conversation and debrief about what's happening so that we continue to be better and not get stuck in a cycle. Right. And I, when you were talking about working specifically with Asians and Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders, right, like that, just That's so exciting, because I know that there's also numbers out there where I think it's Asian immigrants that have like the highest, like mental health issues, but like refuse to go see a therapist, right, like something like that Paulina might. am I messing that up? Pauline Salgado 43:38 Yeah, no, no, no, you're right. Especially Filipinos, specifically. Toni Rose Deanon 43:47 That's so wild, y'all. So if you're Filipino, please go seek help. Just kidding. Just kidding. Toni Rose Deanon 43:53 Yeah, so it's, it's, it's wild, because it's just wild to think about, right? That there's still such, like, we're starting to accept therapy, but there's still such a stigma in certain cultures as well. So thank you for sharing that Pauline. I love just this is kind of like my way of catching up with you. Because it's been what like two years since we've talked. So this is really, really great. Okay, well, Livia, we're gonna shift right like it this is great, because it's like, Y'all are both still counselors, and still so different, right? Like, the roles are just so different. And one thing that I was thinking too is when I was in K 12 school, we had a guidance counselor, who like did all of it, but like, did all of it poorly. Toni Rose Deanon 44:38 I'm not gonna call any names. But like, it was there, it just wasn't and, and it's probably because like, they didn't have capacity because they weren't doing all the things for like, and they were the only person for that entire school, so I get it, so no shade thrown there anything. So like, okay, Livia? Like what role do college counselors play in helping students explore potential career paths and majors, you talked about this a little bit in the beginning, too, of just having conversations with them to see what they're interested in to see what they want their lives to look like in the next couple of years. Right? And so how do how do like college counselors assist and aligning students interests and strengths with their educational choices? This is a very loaded question, right? Because it's like, you have your family's opinion, you have your teacher's opinion, you have your friends, and then like, what do you really want to do next? And then how can you deep? Like how can you dig deep down to where you can actually listen to that voice that you really should be listening to as how outside of like everything else, right? Livia Matteucci 45:37 Yeah. I mean, and your prefrontal, prefrontal cortex is still developing too, right. So just like, like, what's happening? Um, yeah, um, no, really good question. Like, yeah, obviously, a lot of layers there. I think, well, one thing I'm really excited about is that when I first started at the school last year, I was one of two college counselors for just for the whole high school just to college counselors. And now we hired a third person this year. So our third college counselor is specifically for ninth and 10th grade. And then we have, and then myself and another college counselor, our 11th and 12th grade. So So that's new this year, and when part of the reason why we created this new role was to address some of these questions, and, and like, how do we better support students who want us are exploring early slash mail items, or parents want to, like start talking about it early? And I do understand I mean, I know that we a lot. Um, but I think, you know, previously, when I was just to college counselors, I mean, some schools like you said, Tony Robbins, like have like, one guidance counselor was all of it right. So I think we're already in a place of privilege, with the amount of staff that we do have. But I think having now one person who's really geared on Ninth and 10th, a college and career planning, that's going to be great. So I think so all that to say the opposite, we're still have developing our program for what that looks like. But, you know, there's a lot of really great resources out there now that I wished existed when I was like in high school, there's this one like, this is not sponsored, sponsored at all, but Roadtrip Nation is a really great free website you can go on to actual to students is all the time. It's like literally three questions you answer of like, what are two topics you're interested in? Like, education, social justice, stem, like, you know, there's a million other ones? Are those just things of business, right? And then think, what are a couple of things? Like? Do you like working with your hands? Do you like mentoring? Do you like being outside? Literally is a good 30 seconds to answer these three questions. And then they give you all these different possible careers? Because part of it I think, too, is like you don't know what you don't know. I talk to students a lot about that, too. So like, they're I don't even know what I like, you know, because they're so because they're young, and I get that. So the this website, of course, there's a lot of other stuff out there too. But like, it's rare, because it after just a few questions is like, if you will, these are, these are a bunch of different careers that are aligned with some of these interests. And then even on top of that, what I think is even so helpful, it actually connects you with real people who have those jobs, who have been interviewed on the road trip nations website was like, here's what daily life looks like, here's my education trajectory through high school through college. Did I go to graduate school? What were my jobs, like, it basically has a deconstructed LinkedIn on their page, and sometimes even has their LinkedIn profile aren't like linked on there, too. But it has. There's so much information out there. And like I learn about this at a conference last year, I was like, I wish this existed when I was in high school, because I show students this and they're like, and you can just, it's in the best feeling when you show someone a resource. And they're like, oh my god, I can explore this now. And this is like so exciting, right. So I think a lot of kids love resources like that, where they can just like a couple quick hits, and then start exploring. We're also this spring, we're doing our first like ever like college and career fair on campus. So we're not only are we going to college reps, we're also utilizing our like alumni network and a parent network to come come in and like table basically after school for like, different careers that they have, like, like companies that they represent. Again, just to give kids like more exposure to what's out there. I think that is huge. And I think and I think also thankfully, most colleges are still like allow you know, flexibility of changing your major up through the end of your second year of college. So I think also telling students like it's told most people do change their major at least one time in college, like unless there's a couple select, um, universities across the country, and especially a couple universities in a lot of colleges abroad. Toni Rose Deanon 49:36 That also Livia, a lot of Sorry to interrupt. See, like, I'm interrupting, I was just gonna say and also majority of the time people have majors and they don't even use it. Yeah, just wanted to name that also. Livia Matteucci 49:47 Yeah. So I think there's just there's so much wrapped up on this. I mean, we I feel like I could have a whole I could just talk for an hour just about that whole question too. You know, like I have students. When I A lot of times I either have seen So let's say I want to major in computer science or engineering. I'm like, okay, or the like business and unlike, okay, why business a lot times I get like, oh, I want to make money, I want to have a stable job. You know, and I understand I understand where that thought patterns coming from. But my hope and like, as I continue to work in this field as I can help provide students with more resources, like there's other options out there, like if you really want to do that great, but there's also level options that give you stable, like, high earning jobs aren't you know what I mean? Like, there's just, there's so much Toni Rose Deanon 50:31 I've also just thinking, too, I'm like, Oh, they want to make more money so they can afford therapy? Come on. Because therapy is so expensive. If you don't have insurance, and even with insurance, it's still expensive. So anyways, I digress. You're absolutely correct. Right. Like, I mean, I remember being a kid too, and being like, I want to make all the money and then realizing what all I have to do to make more money. And I was like, Nah, actually, I don't, I'm good. Livia Matteucci 50:58 Yeah, and I think again, just like trying to normalize for students as much as possible, like, it's okay, if you're not 100% sure what you want to do, like, I didn't know what I want to do go into college. Like, I ended up becoming a teacher, I loved being a teacher, by all so that was not my plan. Going into college, I kind of realized that over my time there. Right. So like, I really try normal. I think some kids just put so much pressure on themselves. And I mean, it's, it's hard, but like just trying to tell kids, you know, you have options, like your resources, you don't even have to decide, but how do you go to college, you have time, then even with your mates, like you said, Tony rose, like even with their major, like, there are other options open. So I think, trying to give kids space to explore, and allow things to be a little bit malleable, which I know it can be hard for some kids who want a very clear answer. And just like things to be one or another, but I'm just offering that space to explore is huge. Toni Rose Deanon 51:51 I could just see so much alignment here, right of like so much pressure, and then that's when they that's when they go to Pauline to talk about this anxiety. Holding on to, especially in the Asian community, there's a lot of anxiety with performing as a perfectionist, right. And so I think this is just so great how like, your roles are so different. But then it's also like, just you're supporting students, essentially to be better humans, outside of school. And that I think is really, really important. And so just like, you know, for educators, right, who are listeners who are listening, because a lot of our listeners are educators and school leaders, and also like students and caregivers, what advice would you give them about how to best utilize the services of school counselors and college counselors to achieve their educational career goals? Livia Matteucci 52:41 I think for me, at least, I'm still kind of discerning what makes like, I don't know if I have a fully formed like, response to that. Yeah, I think, at least for for educators, like for other teachers, like I really want them to know that, like, our college counselors, like we're in your corner, like we care about the kids, and we care about making sure that like your questions are answered to I mean, like, and I know what doesn't happen is I mean, for college, our biggest interfaces with teachers was more for like letters of rec and stuff. But you know, like, I had a student last year who was a senior transfer. And her first semester Rachel looking a little bit like, I'm wasn't quite sure about how our grades are going. And I checked in with a teacher of hers who also was our volleyball coach. And we had a really good conversation about the student how to support her and then like, oh, like, what would be the best step for her next after she graduates, you know, and like, those kinds of conversations are just like, so helpful. And just, I just love building community in any environment, and like educators are the best people. So I think there's that and I think in terms of like, students and caregivers think especially, especially caregivers, like families that, you know, we don't see like, on campus as often like, as much as they can, you know, come in our virtual events, or check out our resources online, or if they can't come to school, we're starting to host I think starting in November, we hosted like coffee with counselors. So like one morning and lunch. Parents and guardians and caregivers are welcome to come into the counseling office, and we all just have treats and doughnuts and stuff. So they can kind of put a face to the name. And obviously that's the depending on if caregivers can actually get here right and workwise and that kind of things. I know there's never like a perfect solution for all of it. But um, I think I have the best interactions with families when I've met them before when I've had a face to face interaction or even a phone call of like, Hey, I saw there was a really long stressed out email from a parent like let me kind of call you and we talked about this you know, or a student has a lot of concerns. Hey, it's okay if we call your parents or call call caregiver that like you, you feel close with and we can talk without together if I sense that there's three different pages, you know, and just trying to have meeting we're meeting them where they're at. And I always tell students this too, and I think this goes for a lot of things like I I'd much rather than like, come talk to me if they have a concern or their parents of concern rather than like suffering in silence or like saying, Oh, well, Miss Mater you choose not actually that helpful that will please come talk to me, then I'm happy to like meet you where you're at. But like, just like that advocacy piece. And reaching out is huge. Toni Rose Deanon 55:16 And I feel like that's a perfect segue for you, Pauline? Pauline Salgado 55:21 Oh, yeah, I've been thinking about this question for a while. And it's really hard to answer. But I would say the first thing that came to my mind, I don't even know for like, I was helpful in this situation. But, and it's not. I don't think all teachers would agree with me. But I did have an incident or a situation where a student was very depressed and was just like, I can't, I don't have the energy to turn in my work, do my work, I can barely read. And I had one teacher, who graciously was like, how do you think like, not having them turn in work would work out. And I was like, really shocked by that. Because like, not a lot of teachers would ever say that, you know, as an accommodation. But like, that was the only thing I would think of, but I rarely bring it up. Because there's so much. I don't know what to say like that. Not backlash, but maybe some hesitation for doing that. Because, you know, homework for some teachers, like homework is super important. Like, that's how they get their grade. But like that teacher specifically, like, I think they said, No, there's a Common Pleas argument that school is supposed to prepare you for the real world, right? And, you know, mental health issues are real, like the student is depressed. And, you know, like, I don't want to usher them into a world where, like, they can't accommodate that. Because why not? Because I can do it, you know, like, I'm the teacher, I have choice to create my own curriculum and support my student, and then that's what they did. So, not every teacher did that for that student, but having that teacher do that for them, like, they graduated just fine. And, you know, like, they really attributed like that connection with that teacher, like as, like their support system, like they really made it through because of like, someone just providing them kindness. So I just wish more like, like, teachers could see that that doesn't deter them from, you know, like, on their next pathway, whether that's college or not, but just seeing that these are real issues, and just to treat them as like, yes, these are real, but like your kids need you. So I don't think that answered the question. But that was just the first thing that that came to mind. I'm just like, how how teachers could or educators could like, support students in that way. Toni Rose Deanon 57:51 That was beautiful. Like, I hope that you celebrated that, that teacher for doing that, because that is huge. I always say to myself and to others to like, our students are human beings first, right. And they will always remember how you treated them. Versus like, whatever it is that you taught, like, I couldn't tell you what I learned in school, but I can tell you how doctor and made me feel, I could tell you like specific teachers that made me feel really loved and welcomed. And so I think that that teacher had a really, I don't want to say progressive, but like a very nurturing and caring way of taking care of the student. Because you're right, like our students are coming in with so many different layers, and they need all the support and our work sometimes it does need to be like paused. And like, you know what, let's take care of you first. Because if we don't take care of you, you cannot show up at all, in any capacity. So that's a great way to wrap this app y'all like, wow, heavy stuff, and also like exciting stuff, right? Like thinking about the future for college and like what life is going to look like outside of the K 12. Because that itself is really important. That's what we're doing as teachers as staff, right to make sure that our students are able to survive in the real world. Like you said, Pauline, right, like, these are real situations. These are real lives. These are real people that are dealing with all these real things. And so how can our listeners connect with you Pauline, and then Livia? Pauline Salgado 59:24 Like can always check out my organization. It's called the Asian counseling and referral service. They're really great. I love it there. So Toni Rose Deanon 59:33 yes, yes. Yes. How about you Livia? Livia Matteucci 59:36 Yeah, um, you can find me on LinkedIn. Or I'm on I guess, like, I'm on my school's like college counseling page. So Eastside Catholic college counseling, Toni Rose Deanon 59:47 yay. Again, I just want to say that I'm so grateful for your presence and thank you for being in my life when I needed you the most. And so, thank you. I really just have Appreciate you both just showing up today for me and constantly right and so, listeners remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org/161. We'll have this episode's transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Also, we're asking our listeners to leave a review of this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a blended self paced, mastery based learning environment. It does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you, Pauline. Thank you, Livia. Pauline Salgado 1:00:35 Thank you. Toni Rose Deanon 1:00:40 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj that's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.