Zach Diamond  0:03  
Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.

Toni Rose Deanon  0:28  
Hello, and welcome to episode 173 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Toni Rose Deanon, they/them pronouns, the designated high person here at MCP and I am joined by an educator currently teaching in southern Utah. And in the Navajo Nation, Micah Daniels. Welcome Micah. 

Micah Daniels  0:44  
Hello. 

Toni Rose Deanon  0:46  
It's so exciting to be in this space with you. And thank you so much for saying yes to the podcast. Before we get started, what is bringing you joy currently

Micah Daniels  0:54  
think right now it's bringing me joy is coaching basketball. It was definitely one of my favorite sports when I was in high school and middle school. And it's really fun. Being active with the girls and seeing them, you know, accomplish the things that they set out to do at the beginning of the season. And so I think what's bringing me joy right now is just seeing how far they've come and how how hard they're working. And we have three games coming up this week. And so I'm hoping I'm hoping it's I'm hoping they're excited for it, I guess.

Toni Rose Deanon  1:28  
I love this because before we started recording, you said they were third and fourth graders. So that makes it even better. Okay, well tell us more about who you are and how you started your education journey. 

Micah Daniels  1:42  
Um, so my name is Micah Asdzaa Toaheedliinii Daniels, I guess I can sort of give you a little bit of background for you know who I am. So, my mother is Navajo, and my dad is Northern Arapaho. And one of the things that my mother's tribe does when we first meet people is to establish kinship. And so we say our four clans and so I can do that next and kind of give you a little bit of a rundown of you know, how I feel that plays into my identity and such. So, yeah, it's a shoe a mica assigned to a Higley Daniels Jr. Shear, to quite a few, I mean, initially and nationally, but she's she's a she's a Dasha che Adobe Legon. Additionally, my first clan is water flows together clan, that's my, that's my mother's clan. And so that's who I am. I also said that I was born for the Northern Arapaho tribe, and my third clan is red ochre on the cheeks, clan. And then my last clan is Villa Ghana, which is like white. And so if there's anyone out there who is related to me, hello. But for that's a little bit of who I am. And so how I got started with education and my journey in education, I think, initially, it started in high school, which is a little surprising, because I don't think I was really self aware enough in high school to know that I wanted to me in education, I think I was kind of just already doing it. So when I was in high school, I would volunteer at the elementary school. And then I eventually got invited to be a student rep on our local Indian Education Committee. And that committee is a group of individuals that represent each of the regional schools, and they vote on where funding goes for Indian Ed. And so I was a student rep that was there on the on the committee. And so I was, you know, working with sort of funding for different programs and things like that, and doing volunteer work at the elementary school. And then when I went to college, I also was working in a daycare center as a student assistant, or a teacher, a student, Assistant, excuse me. And then I also was working as a substitute teacher when I was off campus and on any of my breaks, and so I think I've always really just enjoyed education in general, and really enjoyed being in the classroom and working with students and kids. And it's just really been a passion of mine ever since, you know, like I was in high school, like I said, and so when I got out of college, I knew I knew that's kind of where I wanted to go and where I was the happiest. And that's, I next thing I know, I was working as a parent educator. My official title was behavioral interventionist. And this was like a really fun position for me and I'm really glad I got to do it when I first started into the field of education because I had a principal that was really hands off, I guess I can say so she was very hands was off with the work that I wanted to do. And so I got to kind of just do what I wanted in terms of like curriculum. And so I helped bring in and draft like our beauty weight curriculum for our students, which is like a positive behavioral intervention that we were doing. I then also became like the PBIS coordinator for my school for the school. And then at some point, one of our teachers ended up quitting in the middle of the school year, I became a long term sub then started my certification track for becoming a professional educator. And I've been in the classroom as a general ed teacher for the last four years. So are this is the beginning of my fourth, I guess. So I can't say I've accomplished all four years, I've just started my fourth.

Toni Rose Deanon  5:52  
Ah, what a beautiful journey. Micah, thank you for just sharing all of that, actually. And I know listeners, I was talking to Mike, for this episode, where we're solely focusing on indigenous teaching practices. And this is something that I have come across multiple times, and just trying to really reflect on just our instructional practices in the classrooms, right. And so really having conversations with Micah, I'm just so so so honored for you to share your time and space with me and our listeners as well to just kind of go over some of the things that we probably should know about, right. And we probably should learn about, and I was telling Mike, I'm really ignorant about a lot of things indigenous, and so I'm trying to learn more about it. And so having her on this podcast is just such a special treat for me. And I'm excited to start this month also off with with, with learning from you my first so again, just just thank you for sharing all of that. And thank you for, for being in education, because we definitely need to see more educators like you. And so we'll we'll go ahead and get started with a question. Right. So how do indigenous teaching practices differ from the conventional Western education? Right? And what unique elements do they incorporate to promote holistic learning and cultural preservation? And I know something that I've come across too. And I know a lot of, you know, people like a good amount of folks in my circles, always talking about decolonizing instruction, right? So what what does that mean for you?

Micah Daniels  7:28  
Well, I think I would like to preface this answer with sort of a little bit of background before I address the question itself. So one of the things that we I think I find, and a lot of indigenous communities find is that there's always this grouping of like, native nations and people together, and it's a little bit stereotypical to say, oh, all these native people feel this exact same way, and have these different techniques and practices that are overarching for all indigenous people. And so I think I would like to preface this answer by saying that I work in a very specific tribal community that has very specific practices in that community, and come from, you know, different tribal communities that have very, very different ideas of like decolonization and what does that mean, and what does it look like? And so, when I'm talking, I feel as though sometimes there's a little bit of switching back and forth of saying, Okay, I need to recognize that these are the different tribal, the specific community that I'm working in, but then there is also with the experience of colonization, there is a little bit of that overarching, okay, these are the things that we have experienced in common, and recognizing there are those similarities and commonalities, but just being very careful to say that it it's not an overarching umbrella that this applies to every single indigenous community, or even any school or location that is on, you know, like, everywhere is on native land, but that a school that's near a different indigenous community, like what I'm seeing here might not be necessarily applicable to that community itself. But with that in mind, when it's when I'm talking about I guess, one of the things I have talked a lot with, like friends and colleagues and other educators about is, you know, all of these teachings and practices are not necessarily something that are new, and they are not spared. Like they're they don't belong to just one person, I guess. And so one of the things I would like to also acknowledge is just that there have been a lot of indigenous edit educators before me that have put in a lot of work before I have and so these practices that you know, we'll we'll be discussing here in this episode are just they're not things that I do and they're not things that I've invented or anything like that. And just, you know, I, as a young person have to acknowledge that my position in indigenous communities is typically not one to be speaking out, it's typically be my would be to sit and listen. And so I think that's also one thing is just these practices, how that differs from Western education is that there's not it's hard to talk about these practices without the commodification and exploitation of those practices within Western education, and within the classroom. When So, when it comes to things like decolonization in the classroom and stuff like that, it's really, really hard to do that in a public school setting, which is where I'm at. And so my experience and as a public school teacher will be completely different from an educator that's working in, like immersion, schools and immersion education, which is a whole other type of indigenous practices in education. And so I guess, with that being said, and sort of thinking about how complicated things are, it's hard for me to answer that in a in a straightforward way. But one of the things that, as I've said, like my colleagues and I have talked about is how, you know, I feel that Western educational practices are, in essence, can be very traumatizing for a lot of students and students of color, and indigenous students and black students and things like that, because Western education holds the value of, at some, at times have a deficit model. And so I feel that there's this deficit model that's applied in the classroom where, you know, you got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps, there's this overvaluing of individualism, there's not necessarily like that community oriented thinking that can happen in the classroom. And so it's about valuing competition over community and things like that. And so I think that those are some practices that happen in western education that are in contrast to like, what I feel a lot of indigenous communities are trying to combat because those types of ideologies can be re traumatizing for students. And a lot of times, you know, not having culturally relevant trauma informed practices in the classroom, is very detrimental to students and devaluing of their identity and invalidating of who they are. So I, I'm not sure if that quite answered the question, but I feel like I kind of did the best I could.

Toni Rose Deanon  12:52  
No, that was, that was perfect Micah. I know, for me, again, thank you for the reminder that not all indigenous folks, you know, have one certain way that just kind of is the umbrella for all of the things right, and so thank you for that reminder, in that push as well. And, and I really do like you acknowledging, you know, the legacy and also the folks before us, and I know that that's something that I'm trying to get better at as well, just knowing like, hey, these things didn't just, I didn't just come out of the blue with it. There's been multiple folks before me who have come up with, with strategies and tips or just the ways of being and so I really appreciate you naming those things. And just acknowledging that, and then also just being real with it, right? Like, hey, it's all a mix. It's very tricky. It's very challenging. There's so many different challenges, and naming, you know, the, the holding value of like the deficit model, right. And so this is something that I talked to educators about with the deficit mindset. And how to shift away from that, because it is, it's very easy to have a deficit mindset. It's very easy, I think. And it's, it's much harder to shift that right and to something where we're focusing more on the asset, like the acid based mindset, and even just words that we use, right. And so the whole individualism thing, too, I was definitely part of the problem. When it came to that it was I was very much all about like myself and individualism. And it was just kind of like how I was brought up to and, and understanding now that it's actually a lot of, we need to lean in and lean on our community so that we can better serve the students that we do serve. Right. And when you mentioned culturally relevant, right, and this is something that I have conversations with educators about two is that we want to create a curriculum that is, in many ways a mirror or window for students, right and so my jority of the times when I work with educators, there's not a lot of indigenous representation in what we're reading, or what we're writing about. And it's always kind of like a last thing that they're thinking about. And so, and again, so thank you for this just calling in and just like recognizing and acknowledging and, and just reminding as well, right? And so when we, when we think about cultural relevant trade and, and prioritizing cultural relevance, how do you think these, these practices contribute to a more inclusive and diverse educational experiences for all students, including, like, really Indigenous students, because we rarely, I feel like, I rarely hear folks talk about Indigenous students, right. 

Micah Daniels  15:49  
So that's definitely something that a lot of indigenous educators and I did go to college with a friend, and her name is Helen Thomas. And she's done a lot of work with indigenizing, the classroom and things like that. And so she has a lot of work that she's done in this regard. And one of the major things that she talks about, and a lot of educated indigenous educators talk about is that indigenous erasure in education. And so not only are the practices itself of like the pedagogy, and what strategies and methodologies are we using in the classroom that are getting erased, but just the subject of indigenous people themselves that are erased? And so when we're talking about prioritizing cultural relevance, I think we have to go back to the local community and think of like, okay, so what are the ways that we can bring the local community into the classroom and strategy and things that are just healing in general, because I think like there is this aspect of like, trauma cycles that are in the classroom, and part of those trauma cycles are the eraser erasure of indigenous people. And so part of that healing is being able to, one acknowledge that this is the local community, these are the practices that we have, and you know, that allows students to begin to talk about these really big, difficult topics and subjects. And so when we're talking about being more inclusive and more diverse in education, it's not just okay, well, we have like a couple of brown people in the room. That's not necessarily what inclusion diversity is, what it is, is having an open, safe environment, that is where students are all able to feel empowered and express themselves. And one of the things that we really need to focus on, I think, is the power dynamics within the classroom. Like the curriculum itself is a power dynamic. That is, you know, erasing indigenous practices. And so for example, you know, oral tradition in communities and stuff like that. So what are ways that we can bring back oral tradition? What are ways that we can value oral tradition within like our communities? And how can we allow like our students to bring those oral traditions into practices like a community garden. And so for example, one of the things that I've been able to do in my classroom, and what I would like to continue doing is having a garden with our students. And part of that garden is, you know, these are the traditional plants that we have had in our community in the past. And these are the oral traditions, this is the research that I have done with my elders, to tell me this is how this is my relationship with this plant. This is how I'm related to this plant via like, our emergence or what have you. And this is how we take care of this plant as Denat or as Anishinaabeg, or as Ojibway. This is how we take care of this plant. This is my relationship to this plant. And so I think like, when we're talking about cultural relevance and more inclusion, it's doing things that empower voices and students that haven't been empowered in the past. I also think that you know, it's, it's also just about talking about the contemporary issues that are facing indigenous communities, you we can't, we can't, you know, completely erase all of that, in our civics lessons, or in our social studies, lessons, because it makes, you know, the majority, the majority, with air quotes, comfortable. And so I think that, you know, when it comes to like these different methodologies and being culturally irrelevant, it's all about understanding that, you know, the dominant culture is not the only culture that there is. And it's not the only way of thinking and being.

Toni Rose Deanon  19:50  
Yeah, and I, yes, yes. And yes, I agree with all of that. And again, I just so insightful mica and so now I think A question that I'm sitting with too is, you know, for educators who may not know, you know how there's a thing of we don't know, we don't know, right? How can we encourage our educators to learn just even a little bit more about indigenous history? And how and how the history has impacted education, right? Indigenous students education? How, what are some of the resources that you would recommend for educators to check out on their own before? You know, asking or seeking out indigenous folks to have all of these questions?

Micah Daniels  20:36  
Yeah, um, I think a really good book, or a couple of really good books are the inconvenient Indian by Thomas King, I believe his name is and then an Indigenous Peoples History of the United States by Roxanne Dunbar. And those are some a couple of really good books that I feel like people could definitely pick up and read if they would like to. But when it comes to, I guess, like helping people think about what they don't know. It's I feel like that's a really hard and difficult thing to think about, especially because a lot of indigenous educators are not getting paid for that extra labor of teaching others about what they don't know. And I think for me, when it comes to trying to address that issue is I I don't think I have a really good answer. I mean, I gave, there are a couple of those resources that are there and available. But you know, there's, there's so many different indigenous scholars that people can read. So this is not a peace pipe by Dale Turner, though, you know, those are all like philosophical grappling with like, the hegemony or the dominant culture and just sort of like, it's, I don't know, I don't know how to help. I don't know what the answer would be. But those are some resources if you're interested. Yeah,

Toni Rose Deanon  22:18  
no, I actually, Micah, I actually read Roxane Dunbar's book, the indigenous history of the United States, but the the young adult version, because I'm a child, and I needed to be something that I could comprehend. And so I actually read that maybe like in 2020, and I think I need to reread it again, because I remember just being so I don't even know what the word is not shocked, because it kind of already knew. But I think it was just one of those things of like, anger, I think, because I didn't learn any of that when I was in school, and how dare, my school teachers or my school really, like not just kind of not even touch anything at all with indigenous history, right. And so I just remember having this, this feeling of anger of just like that, that sucks. Like, I'm just now learning this, and I feel like I have to reread it. I remember, like the feeling and I need to touch, touch, touch the book, again, read it again, just so that I can I can remember all the things that it was said. And another thing too, that I did intentionally was to follow Tiktok creators who were indigenous and who were putting out like short clips, right? Just that I can get a sense or even just like a little snippet of what it means to be indigenous and what and what the different tribes are and what specific things mean. And so, I think that's also you know, a tick tock going viral and just people are on it all the time. I think that would be a really good place to start as well of just looking at the creators and listening and watching and, and kind of Yeah, so that was just like, for me, it was like, okay, that's an ease because I love Tik Tok and I watch stuff all the time on Tik Tok. And so, it's a quick like, okay, like, this is something that's happening right now that I probably should know about, and I didn't know about and so I highly recommend our listeners, if you haven't had a chance already to read about it. Or if you need something quick, definitely check out some content creators out there who are just spin out all the stuff.

Micah Daniels  24:28  
Exactly. I also I also think like if an educator is really invested in it, they're really paying attention to the reactions of their students. And so if they like realize that they're triggering their students, then they really need to take a step back and think about what it is they're saying or doing that's you know, triggering their student making them feel invalidated. And again, like creating that sense of re traumatizing a student, especially when it comes to like these types of are these things that happened in history, you know, that have been really triggering and traumatizing and just say oh, but you know, there was fighting on both sides from like native and white people and completely invalidating like, indigenous experience with colonization in that in just in just in the sweep of like a matter of two seconds that you know how fast you can get that statement out. And so I think like, you know, it's it's good to be really self aware as an educator, but then also like being aware of your students and their and their mental emotional well being, at any given point in your instruction.

Toni Rose Deanon  25:32  
Yeah, that's a great reminder to Micah, there was an instance when I was an instructional coach, and there was a situation where an indigenous student was really just, like, upset about something. And the teachers were just like, I didn't know they were indigenous. And I was like, what I said, just kind of having those conversations to have, like you don't know who actually are indigenous and like indigenous in your students, right? Like, there's not one way to look. And so like being really mindful of what you say, like you said, just being being aware of body movements and reaction to things. And also just like, be mindful of what you say, right? Like, let's teach the indigenous history and facts, right, instead of just kind of glossing over it. And I know, definitely I have a lot to learn about it as well, just so that I can continue having conversations about, about topics and things that are happening, right. And so you talked about how there's oral traditions, right? And this is why I love teaching English as well as because I really do think stories are just some of the best ways to learn period. And, and so when we think about fostering a sense of identity among Indigenous learners, you said, like, let's make space for oral traditions, right? How do you anticipate that looking in the classroom? Is it more so like creating an opportunity for students to share, right, because I know that you were talking about community gardens, which I think is really beautiful. And I guess I'm just trying to figure out how I could, as an English teacher, right, figure out a way to honor the oral traditions of my students.

Micah Daniels  27:22  
Yeah, so I think definitely creating a space for it, but also just making it a practice in the classroom. So I think like with one of the things in western education is there's a really big emphasis on like, the written word, and like, oh, we have to write this. So we have to, like, if it's not written, it's not legitimate. And so I think like, even in the classroom, when you're accepting grades, and giving assignments, like part of those assignments should be allowing students to orally transmit their responses. And that be a graded seeing where students are being able to speak and say what it is that they're learning, and, you know, there and that way they can articulate, like their own transition of knowledge, or, excuse me, their own like conceptions of what it is that they're learning, and they're able to transmit their knowledge in in a way. So there's different platforms, like there's Flipgrid, there's, well, I think that's like the biggest one that kind of comes to mind at the forefront. But I guess, like, not only making it a thing of saying, Okay, this is what oral tradition is, this is how indigenous communities have used it. But then also just saying, Okay, well, this is what we're going to do in the classroom. And so this is going to be a practice that we have, and that we're going to foster. And we're going to legitimize because it's something that is in the community and something that our community is how, like how our community functions. It's a big part of it. And so I think like, you know, an oral tradition is just one example of like, different practices that you can do and have in the classroom. But part of that decolonization is just, you know, taking things for what they are, but then also not necessarily having to look at them the way the dominant culture would.

Toni Rose Deanon  29:05  
Micah Okay, the written word, I completely agree with that, that there's just so much power, like it has to be written has to be written. And so I actually visited Navajo Nation in 2019. And one of the things that I learned from our, I guess, our tour guide, I guess you would call them I don't know, but you know, saying like Denae is actually what we prefer, as opposed to Navajo, and also saying, like, there's didn't like, the language is not written. And so how do we learn this language? And how do we teach this language and so like, trying to figure out what that looks like, was really interesting. And I was like, Oh, wow, that's so cool. And you know, and and he was talking about how you'd just learned it from listening to your grandparents and your parents speak. And I was like, Whoa, that's so cool, which makes a lot of sense. And so thank you for the reminder that like, doesn't have to be written all the time, we can verbally say it. And that actually, that also counts. And one thing too, that I really like about flip is that there is that there is that ability to share those stories and to show their mastery or whatever it is that we want our students to do in a way. That is not what we've been doing for the past 200 years of teaching. Right. And so, thank you, thank you for that. listeners. We're gonna take a quick break for an announcement and then we'll come on when we come back. We'll talk a little bit more about Micah's expertise and experiences.

Zach Diamond  30:51  
Hey there, folks, this is Zach with a couple of announcements for you. MCP is presenting an F etc. In Orlando this upcoming week of January 22. You can join our sessions innovation doesn't require tech upgrades, transform classrooms with existing tools, and unlock students potential with the power of mastery based grading. We're also hosting an event with Kami so make sure to check out our events page for more details. And you can find a link to that in the show notes.

Avery Balasbas  31:21  
Calling all Los Angeles educators. My name is Avery, your West Coast partnerships manager here at MCP. And do we have an exciting opportunity for you? Modern classrooms project is thrilled to announce the launch of our second fully funded regional scholarship here in California, the Los Angeles educator scholarship if you've been looking to transform your classroom into an equitable student centered space, enroll in our again fully funded virtual mentorship program plus a $500 stipend through MCPS, Los Angeles educators scholarship, just go to modern classrooms.org forward slash Los Angeles to apply today. If you have any questions or want to connect, you can reach me Avery Balasbas at Avery dot balasbas at modern classrooms.org. That's a V is in Victor e r y dot b is in boy, A L A s B is boy a s at modern classrooms.org. We look forward to seeing your application.

Toni Rose Deanon  32:18  
All right, and now we're back with Micah. And so Micah, you and I talked about the importance of community right and really trying to disrupt this whole notion of individualism and pulling yourself up by the bootstraps. I hated that saying growing up as well. And so when we think about indigenous teaching practices, or you know, things that you have been exposed to experienced, how do how do you prioritize community involvement? And what impact does this approach have on the overall well being and success of students?

Micah Daniels  32:53  
Um, I think one of the biggest things I really like to do is value like student agency. And so there's a lot of choice that's given to students that I feel like builds community between me and them. Because for me, I think one of the things in western education and again, it's not just me that has stated this many times over, it's that, you know, there are different power dynamics that happened in western education where the teacher or the educator is considered like, the authoritarian type model in the classroom, and whatever they say goes, and this is what you have to do. And you either swim or sink kind of mentality that kind of happens in education. And I think those are really detrimental to creating a community of a learning community. And so, you know, like, when, when we think back to different, you know, Utah State Board of Education, models of like, okay, this is what we need to do to have successful students. And this is how we promote student learning, and it always has something along the lines of like, oh, we need collaboration. And, you know, there's never any, like, matte roadmap for what that even looks like. But, you know, it's kind of funny and ironic and frustrating to know that like, Okay, well, indigenous communities have been saying this for a really long time that you need to have community and collaborate. And now it's like, okay, but Oh, but we're just like rediscovering this. And this is like, the whole new way to do things. And it's, and it's, it's kind of frustrating. And I think like when it comes to like the importance of community, it's also important to help students think about what that means in a culturally relevant context. So what does community mean for this for our specific tribe or our specific community? And what does that look like? How do we speak to each other? What do we say to each other when these when conflicts arise? How do we how do we mitigate those? How do we get through those? How do we navigate these difficult situations in the classroom? How do I know negate, you know, asking a question. And you know, it all, I feel like it all comes back to like the environment that you create in the classroom. And so one of the things that I do is I practice restorative justice in the classroom with my students. And so one of the things that we do is we kind of do a lot of talking circles, because I feel like that's the tool that I've just kind of decided to use. But I have reservations about using a talking circle, because you know, it's appropriated indigenous knowledge from, you know, Australian communities. And it's just something that like people like, Oh, we're gonna have a talking circle and talking stick, and it's all mystical and everything. And so I do have reservations about using it. But I do use that tool in the classroom because we start to talk about these really big ideas of okay, what is restorative justice mean? What is what is accountability? What does that look like for us? What does it mean to be safe in our classroom? Like, how do we speak to each other? What's our, what's our goals for the classroom, and so my class this year has three goals, their goal, one goal is to be more inclusive. Another goal is to speak respectfully and honestly to one another. And that means like being courageous enough to be vulnerable, but also be courageous enough to be honest with somebody and be like, Hey, I don't like what you're saying, or no, I'm not going to do that. And then the third thing is to make good choices on their own. And so it has to do with like that self regulation, what does self regulation look like in our classroom? And you know, when when can somebody step in and help me regulate when it when do? When do I not want somebody to talk to me in a certain way. And so, in the years past, I think I've been really privileged, again, to have the time to incorporate like these SEL restorative justice type practices and things like that. And, you know, this is something that we start on day one, like day one first day in the classroom, this is what we're talking about. This is restorative justice, this is our expectations. And, you know, it's, it's about maintaining really high expectations for your students. And, you know, I have such high expectations for my students like this is this is what it means to be in a community and this is what you're going to do to be in our community. And by the middle of the year, we started to do this social studies activity where the students had to write their own constitution. And so each year, I kind of come up with a nickname for my students. And so that year, they were called the Munchkins. And so we they wrote their Munchkin constitution, and at the beginning of the year, I told them, okay, I am your Queen, I am going I am your overlord. And I'm going to abuse the power and all these kinds of ways. And so they were, you know, they kind of played into it, and then even went down to like our attention grabber where I would say, like, hear you hear you. And then they would all have to say All Hail the Queen. And so it was this whole big thing that they had to do. And once we started learning all of these restorative justice practices, what we learned about accountability, we learned about harm, emotional harm, physical harm, things like that. And what does that look like? What does it feel like? What do we do when that happens? And we had had, you know, talking circles every week, to every two weeks at that point. And so the students were, you know, really well versed and being able to like, talk through these really big ideas and big events and things. And we ended up writing a constitution where they had decided that they needed consensus in order for anything to be passed for to be in the Constitution. And so they they talked about wanting consensus with things. And when they wrote and drafted their constitution, you know, like their preamble was like, we the Munchkins of Munchkinland, wants these things. And it was basically like, we want peace, we want freedom. But without violence, we want safe, we want a safe community, we want these things. And it was all of the restorative justice, like values that we had talked about. And they came up with their executive branch, their judicial branch, and one of the big key things and key highlights that had happened was, for them the biggest punishment, like the worst punishment that they could imagine. And this is like in their constitution was you get banished, and you're no longer able to be in Munchkinland anymore. And like they didn't like they completely skipped over like, oh, yeah, we're gonna put everyone in jail, you know, like, they completely skipped over that. And their thing was like, You're banished from Munchkin land, you're not you're banished outside the fence, you are no longer a part of the community. And so I think like, building those relationships, not just with your students, but between them is a really big part of like, creating a community and education. And so for them, like the worst possible thing that they could think of was they're not a munchkin anymore. Like they're not part of the community anymore. And so, you know, like, that was that was something that was so surprising to me and it and it was just so amazing to see how they internalized all of that because even when, like we had this really big behavioral event that had happened where like they went outside for recess one day and I don't know what happened but they kind of had this like boys against girls war or something and they there was like some pushing some shoving there was like some tackling that had happened and there was definitely you know, like, not good things you're supposed to do on In the playground happening, and I brought those kids in, and I sat them down. And the first thing that they did was like, you know, I even like they, the first thing they did was like, wow, we broke the Constitution. And the whole point of that assignment wasn't to like, say, Okay, this is our Constitution. This is how we run the classroom, but they had internalized it to the point where they were like, wow, I broke the Constitution, this is what I did wrong. And this is how I'm accountable for it. And, you know, they were like, I don't want to be banished. I'm here doing these restorative justice practices, because that's what was written in their constitution as like, they're in their judiciary branch. And so like, they had just completely like, I like I don't even know what it was, if like, what kind of year it was, but they just like took it and ran with it. And it was so beautiful to see.

Toni Rose Deanon  40:48  
I mean, I've always just said, right, like when you allow for students to be part of the process, and not even allow, but when you invite students to be part of the process, to invite students to create the things, they will come up with some beautiful ideas, and then also just like, hold themselves at a higher, like accountability. And just knowing that, like, oh, we created this together as a community, and now I know that I want to go, I want to abide by these things that we created, it wasn't because like you created it, it was something that we all created together. And I think that's like the beautiful thing about being in a community, right. And so I really love this idea of, of just just you creating this scene, right, and you creating this space for students to really experience what all of this means because they could honestly leave the classroom and apply that for so many things, right? apply that knowledge and the skills that they learned to the outside world, which is really, really, really powerful. And so thank you for sharing that, right? Like, hey, we have this community where the Munchkins we want to be together, we don't want to be banished. And I also just really appreciated to Micah that you mentioned the restorative justice, right? The Talking Circles, because I know that that was something that have come up has come up a lot of the times with educators as well, right, I want to do restorative justice. And it's like, okay, yes. And let's learn a little bit more about the history of it, right. And you just call it out, like the appropriation of it. Because that's something too, that I really just want to be mindful of. And even like, in the beginning of the answer, right, you said, it's really frustrating that, like, all of these things that people have been talking about, that's what we've been doing, you know, and, and so like, let's just, let's have conversations about this, like, this is something that we've we've always just said, is really important. Like, we want to be collaborative, we want to have a community space. It's not it's not new, this is how we've been doing this. And, and so I think I just always push for folks who are into restorative justice, as it is a beautiful practice. Also just know the history behind it. Okay, and so, who what, what challenges do indigenous teaching practices face in today's educational landscape? I mean, like you and I were talking prior right of just like, how wild it is to be an education now, because we can't say certain things. And we just have to be really, really mindful of how we come off and say, whatever it is that we want to say, right? And so how, what are the challenges? And then also, what are the opportunities that exist for the integration and recognition of these practices in mainstream quote, unquote, educational systems?

Micah Daniels  43:50  
Um, I think when we're talking about like, an active in academia in an academic sense, especially when it comes to like, the different, you know, counter ideologies and things like that, and, and how academia is very much, you know, commodifying indigenous ideas and practices and things like that. And so I think like, one of the biggest challenges is just knowledge itself. And I think one of the challenges is being able to say, okay, like, this is our knowledge this is this is my community's knowledge and so like I said, like each tribal community has their own specific way of doing things and I think like one of the challenges in in that is because it's so diverse, it's really hard to, you know, have this umbrella of like, okay, these practices are going to work for everybody because like, as I said, each tribal community is different, like, like, I mentioned, how talking circles was a tool that I had decided to use in the classroom, but that doesn't mean that's tribal. I try really specific to, you know, my community my community has like peacemaking practices and that have actually, you know, been included in, in the Navajo whole judicial system as traditional law. And so like, there are those practices, those peacemaking practices that exist, that are available to educators in our schools and things like that. And I think like, the challenge is like one, not taking a, like the one size fits all mentality. And I think another challenge that exists, is creating space for it, I think, like, there's not a lot of knowledge surrounding it. And so there's not a lot of push, or there's not really that urgency behind, wanting to integrate these things into, into our practices. And every day. I also think like, another challenge is that people think, Oh, I'm going to do this one time, and it's going to fix everything. Whereas you know, the only way that this is really going to make a difference, or the only way that it's going to be impactful is if this is in the DNA of your classroom like this is in the bedrock. This is how this is how your classroom operates. This is, this is how the classroom itself is structured. And this is an and if you don't have like these practices, if you don't do them every day, if they're not like part of the everyday protocols within your students, and your students don't come in and know that this is what it is, and this is what we're doing, then it's not necessarily going to make a difference either. So I guess in there's like the appropriation side of it that we kind of mentioned before, there's the commodification, there's like the ownership of knowledge, there's a diversity, there's, there's so many different challenges. And I feel like, you know, with me saying that, I feel like I myself and falling a little bit into like that deficit model of thinking that we've mentioned before, as well, it's just like, okay, there are these really big challenges. And I also think another one is just not to add to the list, but a little bit to add to the list is just depending on where you're at, you know, you could be very much ostracized or lose your job for trying to use words like Healing Justice, or restorative justice, or, you know, cultural relevancy, you know, using those kinds of words, those buzzer words, those are, those are very much things you could get fired over. And I think like, that's also another challenge of in, in today's society is just like, it's not a safe place for those kinds of words to be used. And so, you know, I myself, you know, find that I have to kind of do these things under the radar, and it's not necessarily something that you you know, I don't know, it's just, there's a lot of challenges. And I think, like, part of, part of that is also, you know, just not allowed, it's really hard to not let yourself fall into, like that deficit mindset of, of, you know, these are the things that are wrong with everything, and this is everything is bad, and, and then get really depressed about it. So like, I the list could go on and on and on. And I'd rather I'd rather you know, just stop there.

Toni Rose Deanon  48:23  
Mica though world is burning. It is just such a struggle even just trying to survive, right. And so, yeah, there's, there's a lot there's a lot to that. And it's a lot of just not just there's a lot of learning that we have to do. And and just understanding where things stem from come from and and again, just being mindful. And so you aren't my dogs also agree. They're just going up in the background. So yeah, so Okay, Miko, what do you hope to see in the future? And what goals do you have,

Micah Daniels  49:06  
I guess my hope for the future is to be in a classroom where an indigenous student, or a black student or a Latinx student doesn't have to get re traumatized or be traumatized by the system itself. And that's the hope. I also just think that there might not necessarily be like a possibility for that. And so one of the other things that I you know, would be a goal that I would hope for is just creating that space and within our communities for ourselves. And so I think the avenue to do that might be with like a charter school or something along those lines and have it be more along the lines of immersion education, and I kind of just touched on immersion education at the beginning, but didn't really get to talk about what it is. And so, you know, there's public education that is, you know, what typically, everybody OSE. And what you and I were talking about was the practices within public education and sort of what that could look like. But if you have something like an immersion school, for example. You know, that's a completely different realm. And it's a completely different sphere and way of operating and being because an immersion school is everything that's taught is in the language, everything, all the practices that are used are culturally relevant practices. And so like the, the system itself is not set up within. I mean, obviously, you're still operating within the Western culture and the Western system of a charter school, but there's not, there's not as many like restrictions, or there's not as many challenges that you would have to face. There's other challenges, obviously, but it's, you know, I guess, like, what I hope for in the future is like, maybe trying to find a way to exist outside of the dominant culture system, because, in my mind, that's the only way that, you know, we're going to be able to really have that Full Circle of Healing come back for our communities, like if whether that, whether that includes, like, healing the relationship that indigenous communities have to education, because, you know, with the history of education in indigenous communities, you know, it's been a very, very violent history. And, you know, like, they're still, you know, bodies being found at boarding schools, there's still people that are missing in, in fact, like, over the summer, you know, my grandma, to both of my grandma's, they were talking because their cousin, she got her hair cut when she went to boarding school, and then they they sold her hair to Harvard for, you know, whatever purposes of museum, study, whatever it is. And so now, there's like that, that, you know, repatriation, that's supposedly happening with all of that, and things like that. And, you know, what does hat like? How do you? How do you just help a community heal from that, and I don't think you can necessarily do that within the dominant culture education system as it is now. And so I think, for me, my hope is that, you know, you create space in places for that kind of healing to happen outside of, you know, the typical western structure of education.

Toni Rose Deanon  52:27  
Yeah, I'm, I'm sitting with, I'm just sitting with all of that. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. There's so much to it. That would be really nice. To see that hope and fruition, right to see it in action. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that about your grandmother's having that conversation as well. Mike, I have to be completely honest with you, like thank you for expanding my brain. I know that I really struggled, coming up with the questions because of my lack of knowledge. And so I really appreciate you just sharing your experiences and your expertise with me and our listeners. And now I'm just reminded of just the stuff that I need to continue working on as well. And so thank you just for being in the space and teaching me, listeners if you have any questions, please like email podcast at modern classrooms.org. And I would love to just forward that to Mike as well, just to make sure that we're protecting I'm protecting her piece and her time as well. So, okay, well, Micah, just thank you again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sitting with me here and just expanding my brain and sharing your stories with us as well. And so listeners remember, you can always email us at podcast at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode of podcast at modern classrooms.org/ 173. We'll have this episode's transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Also we are asking your listeners to leave a review of this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a more student centered learning environment. It does help other folks find it or in better terms, really, if you are creating a more human centered learning environment where there's a lot of community happening, a lot of collaborative work that's happening. Please leave a review as well. So thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Mica. I appreciate your being Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Micah Daniels  54:32  
Thank you for inviting me.

Zach Diamond  54:39  
Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at WWW dot modern classrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at Learn dot modern classrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter face Facebook and Instagram at modernclassproj that's p r o. J. We are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.