Zach Diamond 0:03 Welcome to the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Each week, we bring you discussions with educators on how they use blended, self paced and mastery based learning to better serve their students. We believe teachers learn best from each other. So this is our way of lifting up the voices of leaders and innovators in our community. This is the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. Toni Rose Deanon 0:28 Hello, and welcome to episode 167 of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast. My name is Tony Rose Deanon, they/them pronouns, the Community Engagement Manager here at MCP and I am joined by Mary Thomas, she/her pronouns librarian and Ed Tech coordinator at DCI. Welcome, Mary. Mary Thomas 0:31 Thank you. Hi. Toni Rose Deanon 0:31 It's also just really excited to be in this space with you because you and I used to work together so I always love just having conversations from DCI folks. So this is gonna be really, really fun. And I also have the pleasure of finally meeting Perla Lujan, who is a high school academic coach in Mexico City teacher and an MCP mentor as well. So welcome Perla. Perla Lujan 1:08 Yes. Thank you to me. Toni Rose Deanon 1:11 Okay. So before before we get started, what is bringing you joy currently? We'll start with Perla. And then Mary. Perla Lujan 1:17 I think that's a hard question, because I shouldn't say this. But I think that this semester for me finally is getting over. I'm really excited about vacations in every sense. Toni Rose Deanon 1:29 Yes, I think everyone is so stoked for that. I hear that like folks have a whole week off for Thanksgiving. And so I'm like, Oh, yes. Beautiful as you should. And Mary, what about you? Mary Thomas 1:39 Oh, I wish I had a whole week off. That sounds great. I'm probably my baby. I have a 16 month old and he's just so fun right now, because he's learning so many new things all the time. And so like a new word, like he just started saying water, which was like really exciting. So I just feel like, there's so much like new discovery for him and for us as parents. So it's very fun. Very fun right now. Toni Rose Deanon 2:05 Oh, I love that. And like right before you were doing some baby stuff. So thank you for like making time for us. So listeners. This episode is all about importance of research and critical thinking. And we all know those are skills that we need to have. Definitely. And so with that being said, Tell us more about who you are and how you started your MCP journey. And then Mary, we'll talk about your librarian journey, because I think both roles are really important in, you know, teaching our students the importance of research and critical thinking skills. Yes, Mary Thomas 2:41 so I started my education career as an elementary school teacher, I did Teach for America and got alternatively alternatively certified, taught fourth grade in Chicago for three years. And then I moved to DC. I grew up in Maryland, so it was kind of like moving home and taught elementary school taught fourth and fifth grade at a school in DC and it was just the right opportunity at the right time at DC International School where we work together Tony rose, and they were hiring a librarian. They were founding librarian, and I had been doing a lot of like homeschool literacy initiative at the school that I came from. I also studied French and Spanish in college, and DCI is a language immersion school. So it just kind of felt like a very happy match. Luckily, they took a chance on me, I always tell people like a fake. I'm not a real librarian, like a fake library. And because my master's is in ED, not in library science, which is also contentious for some librarians, so sorry. But yeah, I've been there for six years built the library program. From the space designated to the library, you remember, I'm sure it was just a room that was being used as like storage or like a extra classroom. And they gave me a budget and kind of like a scope and sequence, if you will, and I just kind of ran with it. And six years later, we have like an amazing, beautiful, functioning library program. So it's been super fun. And then a few years ago, I got Ed Tech coordinator added to my role. So I also work in one of our IB projects, extended essay, if you're familiar with IB, so I do all sorts of things. But yeah, yeah, Toni Rose Deanon 4:23 I remember that transformation of a like the library, Mary and I was just like, oh, this is so beautiful. And just like the collaboration that you like, prioritize with with teachers was also really, really important. And just, like, exciting for the kids to see, you know how all of it looks right. Like what does the library look like? How does it feel? How does it you know, and you really welcomed and invited students to be a part of this process as well, which I think is really beautiful. So yeah, Perla go for it your turn? Perla Lujan 4:56 Well, as you mentioned, I live in Mexico. I was at, I studied psychology a few years ago, long time ago. And I thought I was going to go into research for my life, which was not totally wrong. Because somehow I found myself just just finding myself in education like trying to teach kids, English and some other languages, which is something I really love. And I don't know, I decided during the pandemic to be certified is the teacher. But here in Mexico is something that not everyone knows. Actually, it's, it's difficult for them to, to get to. So in one of these sessions, I heard about the MCP, and I fell in love with it, I wanted to be part of it. And I wanted to learn everything, because everything sounds like riding the wave for me. So I started watching the videos, taking all the information. And after the process, I could get the scholarship. So I got my mentor, I finished the course. And now I'm super happy to be working with you guys. Also, I have three mentors around. And it's been a great way of implementing it. Seeing also my mentors doing that, and helping colleagues on seeing outside of the box, because we don't have as much information as we should I believe here in Mexico. Toni Rose Deanon 6:25 Yeah. And we're so happy that you joined our community to Perla. I mean, Perla hooked me up with the connection with Nearpod. So y'all are gonna hear from Nearpod soon as well. So I really appreciate that Perla and I like the just how different Your journey has been right? Like going into research, psychology research, and then and then you're in education, which is so dope. So thank you. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. So okay, we'll start with the Perla. How do you teach research and critical thinking skills in your classrooms? Or in your learning environments? And then how do you use the MCP model to teach these skills? Perla Lujan 6:58 Well, I think these are super linked ideas at school, we are based on the PBL model, we have to do this all the time with the guys. They are high school students. So it's kind of easier at some point. We get them participate in contests of every kind all the time. But something important that has been mentioned that we try to do all the time is helping them to focus on content and the knowledge that they need to get. And then from there, get them to the Countess. So that appears as a second approach for them. Students got what they need for those environments. So as well as critical thinking, which are skills that we need for them to help bolster and having the class. It's not easy, but I think they are well, in Well, only now. Yeah, I would say that really close to a university to know, that is something that is going to help them a lot. I think one example of this is what I like to do using the CP tivities with a model that it has been easier for me to do like that. We have at least two or three questions for them to reflect. And they can use metacognition. So when they are struggling on finding some solutions for practical issues, they relate that to the content that they are you seeing and I don't want to say learning because they are just identifying or getting used to it. And then they learn it, they acquire what they need to. So I say that kind of exercise for the reins in some areas that they are not using, but they will in the future not so far in the future. Toni Rose Deanon 8:36 Yeah, I mean, I guess even before we get started, right, like very What are critical thinking skills? Because I feel like sometimes we don't really know what those are. We just say kids need to have them or like adults don't have them. So what are critical thinking skills? Mary Thomas 8:53 Not don't wait, don't make me define things, not totaling up my content expertise. Um, I think that I really liked that you brought up reflection Perla because I think that when I think about research and critical thinking skills like to have criticality, it's like those higher level Bloom's like order of thinking skills is that what I think of like the ability to evaluate and analyze and synthesize to challenge like sources or resources that you come across to like, decide whether or not you're going to agree or like take something as credible but there's so much metacognition involved in that and reflective practice and DCI the school where I work is an IB school and I that's something I really enjoy about IB is there's so much focus on process instead of product and so when we have students reflecting as they go, that is all part of critical thinking as well because they're kind of thinking like hmm, you know, I found these three pieces of information that might help me answer my research question. Is that enough? If like what's missing, like, What haven't I considered? Like? What do I need to find more support for learn more about? So I think, did I do it? Did I answer? Have we defined critical thinking? Yes, no, that was Toni Rose Deanon 10:17 no, that was actually beautifully said. Right. And so I think now the question is like, you're the librarian, right? And this is kind of like something that you, you, I know that you definitely worked with me and our team about research and critical thinking skills as well. And then this is what you're doing with our high schoolers as well. Right? And so what is your role, right, like as a librarian to help with research and critical thinking skills? And so like also thinking about, like, why is it more important than ever now? And how, how does it serve as a valuable skill, right, in evaluating the reliability and validity of research findings, like those are all really deep questions, and it shouldn't just come from the librarian. And but I but I also know that that librarian does a lot to support this kind of work. Mary Thomas 11:02 Yeah, I think that curation, which is like a topic in the field of librarianship is something I think about a lot. So it's like, if we're asking students to go and research like, how do we curate that experience for them? Or teach them curation as well? So many critical thinking and research skills are around like, can you find the information that you need? Once you found it? Are you able to like, organize your thoughts and think thinking around it, so part of it is helping like CO plan with teachers, for example, or have classes come into the library and say, Alright, you're working on this history project, you're researching different topics? How are you going to go about it? Like, what's your plan? What sources are you going to use? And then of course, like, depending on the grade level, too, I know, when we worked together, you taught sixth grade, so it was very, much more scaffolded, in a sense of like, here are the three websites where you can find information, you know, like choose one, but even there, like the students have to think like, like, if my topic is, you know, the importance of food chains for you know, polar bears or something, you know, then like, which website is going to give me the best information? Or like, where am I finding whatever else in terms of, so that's like, on the level of like me working with teachers, I certainly do a lot of CO planning and co teaching. And then making sure that we have those resources available just at the institution. And then individually, I work with a lot of students like on a one on one basis, they're coming by the library they're dropping in. But to answer your question about why it's so important today, I feel like, you're right, we do have this very information rich society, like, you know, kids, students, all of us have access to more information at our fingertips than we've ever had before. But I was also thinking like, on this question before, we sat down for the recording, and it's not only a more information rich society, but I feel like it's a such a much more capitalistic society. Like it's not just an information that we have in our hands, but it's like so much advertisement. So I feel like, even in the last like three years, I've noticed a change in my teaching, when I'm doing a research lesson lesson with students. So often when we're analyzing or trying to evaluate the purpose of a source that we find notes like, what's the purpose of this article? You know, this was, you know, we found an article, for example, written about like, American history, but it was published on a journalism website. And so it's like, what's this like journalists who usually covers like politics doing writing about the Civil War? Like, why would that be? And is this like, article title, kind of click bait-y? And what do we notice at the top of the page is like an ad or like a donate here button. So and that's on like a very academic side of things. I feel like on the other side of things, like kids are scrolling on Tik Tok, like every other video is an ad. And even the ones that aren't labeled ads are sort of like subliminally ads. So that's where that's where I'm just like, alright, you gotta we have to be aware, like when we're being sold things, which right now is like all the time. Toni Rose Deanon 14:02 Yeah. And I really appreciate you naming already about the social media, because that was like my next question, right? Like, our kids are in this, this world now, where social media is a thing. And there's like so many different types of platforms as well. And it's funny that you mentioned those ads marry because I'm actually getting my certificate in digital marketing. And the more I learned about ads, the more I'm like, Oh, I'm part of the problem. Why? I'd like you to know this, this is not good. And like the ads that you're talking about, are actually native ads to make it look like the rest of the website that you're looking at, which is like so tricky. And like it's clever. It's so clever. But it's also like, it just shows how important it is for us to show our students or to teach them like how do we evaluate something right? Like, yes, you read this thing, but is it credible? Like let's look at the author because this is something I did with my students to like when I was teaching English to like, let's talk about the author, let's do an author study, like, why is this something that they could have written about? Right? Or why is this such a hot topic? Or why is it that they got a lot of backlash for writing this thing? Right. And so it's really interesting that you mentioned the ads, because we are just, like, inundated. We can't get away from them. Like, there's no way and, and I was thinking the other day, too, of how interesting it is that we have to pay to not see ads. I'm just like, okay, that's, that's cool. Not really. So like thinking about, again, like the articles in the research. And another question popped up to me. And this is something that I've been kind of sitting with, too, is the confirmation bias. Right? So when we think about researching, and we only research one side, and that's the side that we believe in value, we're gonna get and find that information, right? How do we check our, our biases? How do we check to make sure that we're not just doing this whole confirmation bias that we typically do as human beings? Perla Lujan 16:06 Yeah, thank you. I was thinking about some students that I used to teach with Shadow University. It's an academic writing course. And they are teachers. They are English teachers. So they know about all of the details. But the problem is that at some point, we need clarification on how to the structure of everything the right way. So when we talk about research, they found that there's a complete new world based on how to get to things exactly what you are just saying. And I also can relate it to what is happening these days on AI. So they were asking, can we use this? Can we references can we use this site? I don't know different types of sources, because we don't just have one AI, there are many. And they were the very first problem was how can we reference this one? Now that we have thought about that a lot in education. But mainly what you're saying right now, this confirmation bias? Or what does the author want from me when I'm reading this? If it's the AI? Does it want something? And who is working this out? So I think we are also coming with more complex questions is this. And we have university students who have been teaching for so long, think about this, I don't know what to expect at some point for, for my students in high school, I mean, we have to be really, really aware of the situation to help them and guide them to the right critical thinking way. And also, given new tools or strategies to fight this problem, and to make friends to be friends with them, not just to say we should ban this or we should not pay attention to that. We should not use it. I mean, I think it's a new source. We have to use it, we have to live with it. But I think there's a whole new world for us in education based on this information. Toni Rose Deanon 18:06 Yeah. Mary, what are your thoughts? Mary Thomas 18:08 Perla, Well, I just love that the way that you said that, like, you know, we're like we have to make friends with these like newer tools or like with these sources, because I think something I always say to students is like there are there are no sources that are off limits. Like, you know, you may have a teacher tell you, like, don't use Chad GPT don't use Wikipedia at the end of the day, like they exist, like tick tock exists, right. So I feel like part of what I see my job as in terms of teaching these skills as well is to like, approach it with an open mind of like, you know, even talking about ads, like I say this to students all the time, you know, like, Yeah, I'm taking a break from Instagram right now because the ads were working like they were effective. Like it like I was falling for it. I was buying stuff like I feel like that's like important to acknowledge to to students of like, yeah, like these things are effective, like they work but even the example I was talking about of the history article, like okay, yeah, so this like, you know, online journalism, you know, magazine, whatever website like posted this article, definitely for clicks to get ad revenue. And there was some really good information in the article, like I got a decent amount of background information that would help me go and digest a very academic source about the topic. So I feel like sharing that with students too. Like, we do a disservice to our brains when we like, try to use black and white thinking of saying like, okay, Wikipedia bad, like chat GPT bad tic tock bad JSTOR is the only thing that's good or like Google Scholar or like a published book, right? But that's also just not how research works. Like you can't just like jump in cold to a JSTOR article as a 45 year old, 30 year old or as especially as like a 16 year old. So I think that your point about you know, like, use it getting what we can like out of the tools and understanding their strengths and limitations is great. And in terms of like The echo chamber thing that you were talking about Tony rows of like, how do we, how do we, like escape our algorithms? In a sense, we talk about that with students to have like, even your Google search results are going to be informed by your behavior in Google Chrome. At this point, the algorithms algorithms are so sophisticated and effective, like they work right that you're going to like, see things that you're most likely to look at or be engaged by. So even just getting students to have that, like, metacognitive moment of realization of like, what is the algorithm feeding me or what does my Tiktok for you page look like? Why might that be? What have I liked? What have I skipped? What have I watched the entire video of which comments do I read on which videos like all of this information that's being tracked? horrifyingly? Toni Rose Deanon 20:51 Yeah, horrifyingly it is why I mean, like, again, in the classes that I'm in, I'm learning, they literally track every single click, and every move we make, which is so scary. And so I mean, there's a couple of things like the JSTOR, when you when you were talking about that marry, I was just like, I could probably count on one hand, how many times I touch that, that, that resource, the same thing with Google Scholar, like, I know it exists, but I will not be going there. I am the type of learner that's like, I'm going to go on Tik Tok and research this thing, and I'm an adult. So, so our kids are definitely doing that. Right. And, and I think, again, like, the credibility is the kind of skills that we want them to learn, right? It's like, okay, yes, you watch this one thing. That doesn't mean that we believe that every single thing, right, like, we want to check and make sure that the facts are valid, and that the facts are accurate, as opposed to like, you know, this is just a person saying whatever they want and you know, we've we've had problems in the past with that of just like saying, whatever, right? And then like the the whole society or community just like latches on without even like, figuring out if the facts were right. And so this is such this is, to me, it's such an important conversation, because everyone is struggling with research and critical thinking skills. It's not just our kids, it's literally everyone because like y'all said, so many things are changing. We're getting a lot of tools we're getting a lot of, you know, AI is now in the game and chat GPT like we want to say like we trust jet chat GPT. But then sometimes they chat. GPT says some really wild stuff. And so we really need to be careful and reflective, like how we're saying, right? And so with that being said Perla like how do you then encourage like, when you're talking about curriculum development? Like how do you leverage research and critical thinking skills to create that curriculum. So that like, it goes beyond the traditional way of teaching and learning and encouraging for our learners to be more active and independent? Perla Lujan 22:56 Yeah, I think this is strongly linked with motivation. If students are not motivated, it's gonna be really hard. So for as an example, for one of my subjects, it's really easy because psychology, so students can ask themselves or the teacher charge up, whatever they want to know. And we can link that to psychology. So that's the way I try them to learn from it. Maybe to get them into context, we just talk about a movie or we talk about a problem or another experiment that's happening or that happened. And based on that, they can start asking themselves questions that may be answered by whomever they want. Another teacher, me, Google, whatever it is anything on the internet, they can go out in school to ask their classmates and see what other teenagers think about that, or teachers from other subjects. They can link ideas with other subjects and see that everything is connected. And it's not just psychology by itself. That way, I try and start to build knowledge with them. And then based on on their answers and some other activities. I try to help them build over it, like trying to use a bit of what begat Keith said, but also some of different activities and motivation. Because these are questions that they want to solve. These are problems for them. So at the end, they will remember what they found out, because it's something that they discovered by their own means. So I think it's something funnier for them. They feel more motivated than just the teacher got there. And today, we're going to check brain so listen to me, and this is a lobe and this is the hippocampus and etc. Who cares about that at that age? Toni Rose Deanon 24:40 Yeah, so like making it more relevant and relatable for them. Right? And then it got me thinking to parallel when you were talking about like, Hey, we're gonna make this as a community space. We're going to collaborate we're going to learn together, right? Yeah, it just like popped into my head about how much power teachers have when it comes to putting things in front If students, right, like if we think about an educator who doesn't have a curriculum, and they could just create whatever curriculum they want, that educator needs to also be reflective and mindful of the types of things that they're putting in front of their students. Right. And so I think totally, I think again, like, right, that's like research and critical thinking skills that like we're constantly using as educators and then modeling it with our students. And that takes a lot of practice and vulnerability, honestly, because again, like, we have a lot of things that we lack, right? Like my students, didn't, my students really quick at calling me in and saying, like, Hey, Mrs. D, this has this, this and this, and I'm like, Oh, I don't even think about that. So then let's have a conversation, as opposed to like avoiding it, like you said earlier, right. I feel like our society is so good at avoiding. And we're trying not to avoid things and it's like a cycle. But But yeah, thank you for sharing that of just like, You know what, let's let's be in community, let's learn together. These are some big questions. I know, in a previous podcast with Joyce, we actually talked about sustainable development goals. Have y'all heard of those? Perla Lujan 26:08 No, Mary Thomas 26:10 no? Toni Rose Deanon 26:10 Yeah, it's so in. Yeah, it's really cool, because it's essentially looking at all of the world problems. And so like for Joyce, who is using it in her class, she teaches computer science, just like innovating, how like to come up with innovative ways of how to solve some of the world's biggest problems, which I was like, Oh, snap, like, this is really dope. Yeah. So like, when she explained it to me, I was like, Oh, I know, the goal is exactly what you're talking about. And so that just makes it a little bit more interesting and engaging for students to do research, right, and to problem solve, and to, like, use those critical thinking skills as well of like, okay, these are the problems that we have in our world, how can we make sure that we're taking care of ourselves and each other and that we continue moving forward in a most positive way, right. And so I appreciate you both for for naming those those things, right. And so, so, listeners, we're gonna take a quick break for an announcement. And when we come back, we'll talk a little bit more about researching critical thinking. Lisa Doty 27:15 Are you an educator who implements blended self paced, mastery based instruction in your classroom, join the modern classrooms community of innovative educators worldwide, and receive certified credentials, public recognition and access to exclusive swag. Hi there. I'm Lisa DoDI, and I get to work with educators like you as they begin their teacher leadership journey. By applying for the distinguished modern classroom educator credential Applications are accepted on a rolling basis. So you can apply anytime to get started, navigate to www dot modern classrooms.org, forward slash distinguished educators. That's www dot modern classrooms.org. Forward slash distinguished hyphen educators, we look forward to reviewing your submission soon. Toni Rose Deanon 28:12 All right, Perla, what have been some challenges. And Mary, you can also chime in to what what have been some challenges that you've come across as an educator when it comes to research and critical thinking skills? What are one to two strategies you have for listeners who may be struggling with the same thing, Perla Lujan 28:27 I would like to go back to what we do what you were saying. Because I think teachers want to be in control. So I'm a very controlling person. So at the beginning, it was a struggle with myself, to just leave my students and let them discover where they have to. So I would say that's the first challenge. But I also love to see their faces in this world moment in the moment their brains decide to get something, acquire it, learn it, whatever we want to say about that. So that's the best reward for me. And I would say we have to trust each other, ourselves, and also the students and the process that we are having with them. Because it's not just a teacher, just them. It's a community. It's an environment that we create, that we foster for them. So I would say that's always true for this on my kids was that to trust them and to accept the reward as it is. So happy moment for them a learning. But also, I think something that is happening here here in Mexico is problems regarding resources. So at some point is difficult for us as teachers to put everything they need in the moment they needed because we don't have resources. So I'm really happy to work where I work now because I think we have many of these things, but it's a private school. So it's a different context and I'm very close to people who was in public schools and their environments and everything that they are facing is totally different. So I have talked to them about this model and everything that they can help, what they can do with their students based on this. And they are convinced, but at some point, we know that they need a bit more. So that's also something I would like to help with, like talking or developing or doing something for these schools where we lack of resources here in my country. Yeah, Toni Rose Deanon 30:32 I Yes. Yes. I like these started out with like, oh, no, I'm the problem. I needed to release, relinquish control. That was a challenge. And thank you for like naming that, right. Because I think sometimes it's really hard as an educator to reflect on like, ourselves as an educator, and say, like, Oh, we're actually creating barriers unintentionally, by like, having all the control in the classroom. And so thank you for naming that. And I like this goal of yours of like, I want to help other schools, because I know that we have this, like lack of resources. And now I also just like, I want to spread the love and I want to spread the knowledge. And so that that's, that's really dope, Perla. That's really cool. Mary, what about you? Mary Thomas 31:17 Similar, definitely relate to your first challenge of, it's hard to bite my tongue, I think like all teachers, right, especially when I'm working with a student and trying to use questioning, to get them to help them like, you know, realize that they could figure out how to research in a certain way of saying, you know, like, what other search terms could you use? Or, okay, like, you found this source about this thing, like, what do you feel like is missing? And then like, I have the answer in my mind, and I feel like sometimes I'm impatient or like, you know, like, do that thinking for them when really like the student could think on it themselves. So I definitely hear you on that. I think that other the biggest thing, really, that I see too, is that students just see or interpret the concept of research as such a huge undertaking. And I think that they forget that they and I think all of us with like, you know, the internet and smartphones, especially are researching all the time, we're asking Siri things we're asking Alexa things we're Googling, we're looking stuff up, we're going on tick tock, we're doing these things like these are all behaviors of research. And sometimes it's hard for students to transfer realize there is a transference of those skills in an academic context, because they get this block of like, well, now I have to have like all the knowledge in the world to go and think of research this like, you know, big topic. But to bring it back to something you were saying earlier, Perl, I think that the more we can help students realize that there are pretty like clear connections to their lives, things they care about, like things they're interested in, in lots of academic fields, that can can make things easier, but that initial hurdle of like a high have to research for this like, is definitely a struggle. So yeah, I guess my my strategy is to like, find the connection for the student. And then kind of like to, like, start with like some lower left things like okay, well, can you go to the Wikipedia page? I know you can get there, right? And once you read two paragraphs of the Wikipedia page, like, can you think of something to put in, you know, can you think of a search term for Google Scholar, just like really like breaking it down for them to help them get started into the process? Toni Rose Deanon 33:28 Yeah, like, kind of like meeting them where they can like giving them an entry point. Yeah, right. Like, hey, here's Wikipedia, or here's a tick tock video, they said some key words, now go and do your research based on that, right. And so I really liked that too, of just like, bits, like little actionable, like bite size stuff that like students can really work on. And this also made me think to marry I don't know, if you remember, when we did wonder day, like where the student asked, like, for example, like, our topic was World War Two. And then we just, like, let our sixth graders run with it. We were like, you're gonna, you're gonna research World War Two, whatever it is, you find whatever you find interesting. And it was just so much fun. It was so much fun. Like, you can kind of see what they were interested in, what other like events happened that I wasn't even aware of. And then they were able to create, you know, they were able to create a space where they were learning from each other. And so this was, in a way, like, every kid was learning something different about World War Two. And I thought that that was just like the best thing. And so what I would say also for our listeners, or educators is like provide that time and space for our students to be curious. So if you have a topic, give them a clap, like one class to just go ham. Go find all the things that you want to know about this topic that we're covering. And then let's learn together like what did you find? How did you make sure that that was credible? You know, how did you like what's your process like before you created this product for everyone else? And I think that's a really important thing. conversation too. So for thinking about like planning, have one day of just students researching. And this could even be like a low lift to write merit, because then we can say like, Hey, research a favorite, like, what is it like a favorite athlete or person or even say like you have a hobby. Now, do your research. What's the background? How did that hobby start? And so like, it'd be really fun for students to gain more knowledge on that one thing that they like, absolutely love, right. So like, let's create time and space for our kids to be curious, because I think sometimes we forget that and curiosity is research. Like, all of that kind of goes along together, right? And so yeah, no, I'm just like, thinking of all the things down like, Oh, this is so dope. Okay, off script, though. Like, is there a way to cite a tic toc video? Like, is that a thing now? Mary Thomas 35:50 Definitely. Perla Lujan 35:52 Yeah. Toni Rose Deanon 35:53 Oh, okay. That's okay. That's cool. That's cool. Mary Thomas 35:56 And it would, it would differ? Yeah, there's, I mean, it would depend on citation style. We, as a school, like recommend students use MLA, so like, which is an author, title, style. So you would start with the Creator name, like creator, like handle or name if you knew the name, and then I'm sure that there's like an official convention. But for example, like I've been teaching students this year, how to cite charge GPT, how to and when to, you know, you can cite like, chickity it's like, yeah, I mean, you can cite any of these things. And then that's an interesting conversation to have, like, of course, you're going to use these tools to do your research. The question is, are you going to cite them? Should you be citing them? Do you need to cite them? Like, what are the stakes? Like? Are you just like, is this the Wonder day of your unit? You know, that's like, where you're just like looking up anything about this broad topic of World War Two, like yeah, go to tick tock, like enjoy your time, like, cross reference, what you see on tick tock with like, Encyclopedia Britannica and see if they got the facts, right, like be the judge and jury for the Tick Tock or you find, if this is your like, final summative assessment for 10th grade history. Maybe you don't say tick tock in your paper? Or maybe do if you found an academic who's like, I mean, that that's like the conversation of like, what's the what's your purpose? Like? What's the student's purpose for, like, whatever they're working on. And so I feel like those some really rich conversations come out of that as well. Toni Rose Deanon 37:19 And I think it's also just kind of saying, like, there's no right or wrong way to gain information, right, we just have to be able to really evaluate, analyze where we're getting it from. And, you know, now I'm thinking about just credibility, right? And also giving folks credit, because I know again, like I'm on Tik Tok a lot y'all like, so clearly, we're gonna go back. Have y'all seen like the dancing movie, like the dancing videos, but now everyone is crediting those people who created the dance moves, because it was a whole movement of like, Hey, y'all are going viral, and you're not giving the the dancer the Creator, any kind of credit. And so that's what I always tell my students to when we're writing a literary analysis of like, give the author credit. Like, if these aren't your words, don't claim them as your own. Like, that's not okay. Because how would you feel if you wrote something amazing, and then people were just saying that they wrote it, right. So it's kind of like that conversation to have, like, we want to give folks credit. And that's why citation is important. Mary Thomas 38:20 Well, not only that, but like in the Tiktok like dancing thing. Like, I feel like what got so much press and what was like written about in the news was the creator of the renegade dance. And it was a young black girl. And so then I felt like a lot of the conversations I was having with students was like, Look how, like, existing like systems of oppression, and like, you know, someone like a young black girl who may already be experiencing marginalization in society is now further like, you know, being othered because she's not getting credit for her dance that she invented. And so, if you post the renegade dance, and don't like tag her video, or credit her use the original audio or whatever else, like, Are you participating in that disenfranchisement? Like, what does that look like? What does that mean? So I feel like even like, under the layer layer of give credit, where credit's due is, like all of the other like teaching that we may want to do about society and how we move through the world and the impacts of our actions. Toni Rose Deanon 39:19 Yeah, thank you for reminding me because that is the big deal, right? Like a lot of our black creators were not getting credit. And then everyone else was getting all the likes and the shares and all of that and didn't get anything. So thank you for just putting that up front to Mary. I appreciate that. Perla. Did you have anything else that you wanted to add on? Perla Lujan 39:37 Based on that? I was just thinking the idea of mice was particularly struggling on making this referencing like they have talked to them about this a lot. They say they don't want to steal information because they know what it means. But it difficult for them to make the logics because it's structure and disease after pandemic and based on it and their age and everything they lack of this. So giving them this structures in the beginning also helps them. But what Mary was just saying it's a great example of this is what is happening if you don't reference because you are not giving credit to not just video or dancing? I don't know, it's, it's a whole thing. So I think I'm gonna use that for further explanation with them. Thank you, Mary. Yeah, Toni Rose Deanon 40:28 Mary continues to drop gems Perla like nonstop. So I appreciate that. Mary Thomas 40:35 Okay, not too much time, not too much. Toni Rose, not too much. Toni Rose Deanon 40:42 So, okay, so we know that like technology is evolving, like, nonstop, right continues to evolve. So how can educators ensure that their research methods and critical thinking skills remain adaptable and relevant? So that we can better serve our learners in today's world? Because again, right, like, there are some folks who like really latch on to like, the old ways of doing it, and they just like, don't want to veer away from it, because it's comfortable, right? And like, that makes sense. But how can we how can we support educators in feeling a little bit better about evolving with all the things that that are happening? And then also making sure that like, Hey, here's some more up to date research methods. And also like, let's kind of reevaluate our critical thinking skills, how do we provide that the space and time and I guess, like energy for folks to, to start thinking about evolving, I Perla Lujan 41:47 really, really, really want to think that teaching is a career that since the beginning needs to be understand as you are the first person that needs to study, you are the first one who needs to continue doing what you are doing everything, but not just for them for you, too. So I think, as I was telling you, at the beginning, when I was introducing myself, like, I just finished doing this biggest I love learning, I mean, I love the process of learning, psychologically speaking. So who is the best on showing that? My kids, I can see that process every day. So I think that if we help understand other teachers, our colleagues, people that we have around, that this is what needs to happen, I think we are one step further and closer to our goal. But also we need to understand that world is changing. And as you were saying, Before, world is changing faster every day. And I am convinced about that pandemic just made it to grow really, really, really fast. So everything that we are having these days, because of those days, it's been really challenging for everyone. And we know what happened with us when that was around, like I mean, how we need to combine our lives and our work, our houses everything. And we didn't leave the kids alone. So it's the same thing, we will never leave them alone. So we need to keep them working for us for them learning, following this trends. And speaking their language, if they are new users of I don't know a new social media that is being developed right now. I need to be the first person on learning how to use it because I need to talk the same language as they do to help them and to motivate them a bit more every day. Because if I don't understand them, who will if I am trying to teach them, how can I teach them if we speak different languages? Toni Rose Deanon 43:52 And I hate to bring back Tiktok I was also the teacher that like avoided that because I was like, I don't need another social media like app. I don't need another app on my phone. But my sixth graders were so adamant about like, no Miss, do you need one? You need one? You need a tic tac? And I'm like, No, I'm not gonna do it. But then I'm like, in hindsight, like, I'm so grateful that my students taught me actually because like, you know, I like the fact that you're saying like, we should be the first ones to know. And that also also for me, it's like, okay, I knew about it, but I didn't have the time and capacity to explore it. So then my students taught me and I was receptive enough to be like, Okay, fine, teach me. And then the pandemic hit. And then Tik Tok blew up. And then I was also teaching using Tiktok. And my students loved it. Like they were just like, oh my god, this narrative thing that you did on Tik Tok was really dope and I was like, I'm just having fun with it at this point. But you're right, like we do. We do need to meet like, we need to speak their language per se, right? Like, just making sure that we have this understanding of like, I'm not going to steer away from it because I'm afraid of it, I don't have the capacity. I don't know how to do this thing, but like Teach me because then it becomes like, this like relationship of like you and I both teach and learn right together. And so I thank you, Perla That was beautiful. And Mary, what about you? Mary Thomas 45:17 Yeah, I definitely agree. I think I was gonna say like, just time and space to, to one, like remember who you are, as a researcher be comfortable like modeling that for students, and then being open to there being other paths and other ways, right? I think sometimes, um, even like Chad GBT is at the forefront of my mind. And I'm leading a group of teachers at my school right now, like in a sort of like a professional learning community where we're just experimenting together and starting to talk about AI. And one of the teachers recently was like, you know, I feel like the conversation around AI and tag GPT. And generative chat right now is what it must have been like in 2000. With Wikipedia, you know, or like 2002, like, where we would make a pedia. And it was like, such a funny and apt comparison, because I'm like, You're right, like, this is new, we're still learning about it, it feels kind of scary. It feels scary that like students might be savvy er than us. And on the flip side, like, of course, that's not true for every student. So. And of course, like, not every student is like a tick tock user, either. So I feel like the more open minded, we can be as instructors, about different tools, different methods, different sources, and keep those same like critical thinking skills, research skills at the forefront of like, okay, well, you found this information in this place, same old like song and dance, like, who made it? Why did they make it? What does it say? What do you think? If that's what's what is our North Star, then in terms of like platforms, and social media and all of that, there's always going to be new stuff, right? And but the way that we want to help students engage with that, and the way that ourselves, we're all practicing it to have to do with those skills of kind of just like evaluating the information and choosing what we will and won't engage with believe reshare, post etc. You know, Toni Rose Deanon 47:19 yeah, that's, that's such a, that's such a really, it's a good point to have even just those questions that you stated, right, like, Okay, what did I just watch? What did I learn from it? Who did it? Why did they create this? And then also, like, what is missing? I think that's another really important piece to have, like, what is missing? Because then that's how we kind of make, make it a little bit more inclusive, right? Like, what which voices are missing, which folks which perspectives are missing? And so those are just for everything, honestly, those are great questions. So, okay, yeah, what do you hope to see in the future? And what goals do you have? Okay. Perla Lujan 47:56 Well, I will say, I would like to see something better for for my country in education. Some help around maybe some incentives for teachers, we are a key part of all this. I would like really, really to spread the word about this. And I really believe there is still too much to do around and teachers who love what they are doing. Their careers, their students, their jobs, maybe their solution, we are as a team, with our students and our administrators, schools, everyone around. But I would say one of my goals, for the next few years will be that like to spread the word about standards and new methods, new ways of helping kids in my country, because I really think we like of this a lot. Toni Rose Deanon 48:51 That's a big task Perla. Yeah, we're we're here. We're here to support you though. So you let us know how we can do that. That's, that's a really, really great goal. What about you, Mary? Mary Thomas 49:03 I think I'm just I'm reflecting back like thinking about the conversation that we've had so far. Gonna say something wild, like maybe maybe knowledge isn't power, maybe criticality is power. Maybe, like critical thinking is the real power because like, we can get knowledge right, but without the ability to think like, alright, I watched this video I read this article, or even like, I watched this show, this Netflix show and now I have all these questions. And I'm like thinking all of these things like the ability to then go and continue to seek answers to those questions and be thinking like, did I like it? Did I not like it? Was that really historically accurate? Like, you know, what, what a sci fi world look like? All of these things like those are those research skills and critical thinking skills. So I think my hope to what I hope to see in the future is just for that to continue to be fostered and students and and learners and remind them that they're already probably naturally Doing that with things that they find engaging. And so finding a way to make those connections so that they can engage in their, in their academic pursuits, too, or find a way to make their hobbies and interests academic. Right? I think there's a there's a bridge there. Toni Rose Deanon 50:17 Yeah, no, I completely completely agree with that statement. Because it is time that like our students, actually, I don't know in my head, I'm like, school should be fine. And it hasn't been for the longest time. And I know I was definitely part of that problem too. Because I like stuck to the rules and the guidelines and expectations. My students need to do this, this and this and, and it really crushes again, our learners like creativity and the the motivation to learn more right and so now we're like, going back to I know for me, I'm just going back to like, know what, like, what are you excited about? Like let's let's try and find a way to incorporate that into what we're learning just so that it's a lot more engaging and relevant for kids right and so Okay, well, how can our listeners connect with you Mary and then Perla? Mary Thomas 51:09 i You can't see this listeners by making a face because I've definitely been on a social media break. So I have I have a social media handle Miss Mary Thomas I'll probably never use Instagram again. And I think I'm done forever for good. I just the mental health is too good without it. So there's no going back for me. But I can see myself maybe getting back on Twitter so you can find me on Twitter. I mean, you can Tony wise you can put my email in the in the show notes. Y'all can email me if you're ever in DC let me know come see my library. Toni Rose Deanon 51:44 It's a really nice library through Toni Rose Deanon 51:49 Yes, I aspired to also be like that of like, not have social media anymore. It's been really nice. Because I have been limiting my social out my social media to one hour a day. It's been challenging, but I've been doing really well. So it's, it's really nice. And so Perla What about you can can our listeners connect with you? Can you just say like, you can also just say no? Birds? Perla Lujan 52:14 Yeah, I would like to do that. I did it on Facebook once. But I think I wouldn't be able to quit on eggs, which is now the name or Instagram or other platforms. I learned a lot from men. And I find lots of information. So at some point, I want my mental health to but I think what am I going to learn this? So? No, it's a struggle. But yeah, I took x most of the time I have a handle for my, my teacher profile. Let's say we just add a teacher Birla ale Lee. And I'm really close on the idea of opening some other social media and maybe a website for educational content. As I was saying, it's a goal for me in close time. So maybe if you check that x account, I will be publishing there some other stuff soon. Toni Rose Deanon 53:07 Hey, this is so exciting. I mean, social media is definitely a great way to connect with other people. Right? Like, I use that all the time for that too. Yeah, definitely. Okay, well, we'll put all of that in the show notes listeners so that you can slide into those DMS or do the email thing, whichever one your heart desires. And so with that being said, Perla and Mary, just thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for just making the time and spending, you know your energy with me in this late late night recording. And so listeners remember, you can always email us at podcasts at modern classrooms.org. And you can find the show notes for this episode at podcast.modernclassrooms.org/167 We'll have this episodes transcript uploaded by Friday, so be sure to check back to access those. Also, we're asking our listeners to leave a review of this podcast has been helpful in supporting you to create a blended self paced, mastery based learning environment. It does help other folks find it. Thank you all for listening. Have a great week, and we'll be back next Sunday. Thank you, Perla and Mary. Mary Thomas 54:05 Yay. Thank you. Perla Lujan 54:07 Thank you. Zach Diamond 54:13 Thank you so much for listening. You can find links to topics and tools we discussed in our show notes for this episode. And remember, you can learn more about our work at www.modernclassrooms.org. And you can learn the essentials of our model through our free course at learn.modernclassrooms.org. You can follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram @modernclassproj. That's p r o j we are so appreciative of all you do for students in schools. Have a great week and we'll be back next Sunday with another episode of the Modern Classrooms Project podcast.